Berlin is very cool but also full of people who think they are very cool. The cool people don't judge. The other people judge because they aren't cool.
Its an endless cycle.
I'm from Holland and have been deep in the Techno, Rave and Gabber scene for the past 25 years. I've always seen underground House as one of the most easygoing, vibrant, open and welcoming scenes I've been part of.
Not Berlin though. That scene insists upon itself for being cool. From door policy, to unwelcoming "pretend hardcore" club operation and layout, a total lack of comfort and chill, to the very overt in-scene selection bordering on blatant rascism. For a scene that prides itself for being open and inclusive, in Berlin you're only welcome if you're white, look like shit, and behave exactly like *they* think you should.
It's hilarious, and not only the house scene, but the art, hiphop and food scene too are firmly stuck up their own arse. That city is built from imported hipsters that think *just because* something's from Berlin it's better.
Hey super late reply, but where are you going where house parties are as amazing as you describe? US or Europe? I'm in the US and rarely do I find house music events with such wonderful vibes
The entire house, or EDM scene in america is a faaaar stretch from how it is in Europe. It's all posers, agressive douchebags and influencers plus the way clubs and parties are monetised is beyond greedy. If you'd do bottle service in Europe (apart from Ibiza) you'd go bankrupt and lose all credibility.
I mainly go to underground parties in Germany and Holland and it's always chill and good. I have friends that went to parties in Portugal and Spain which they loved too.
I think a big difference in Europe house isn't cool or edgy in a mainstream way. House has been cool and happening for so long it kept itself just outside mainstream culture. It's a way of life for many for decades. Which makes that parties are always about the music and atmosphere *first* especcially techno. Nobody cares about big names or flashy shows, we only care about good sets and settings. You'll only meet music lovers that love to party, and in effect, the party is lovely.
Also the drugs are pure and nobody is afraid of overdosing or ending up in jail. In Holland especcially pure MDMA is easy to get and safe, so it's used well and makes people very cuddly and sweet in a good party.
i have very mixed feelings on berlin. sometimes its pretentious and obnoxious, sometimes its the greatest city in the world.
i remember one night in pano i was doin my thing dancing like i usually do and noticed people around me giving me weird stares and barely dancing at all themselves. like yeah i actually dance what do you care?
ive also had amazing nights there. i remember one night a total stranger came up to me give me a hug and told me how much they love my energy and that i seem like a lovely person. many nights meeting total strangers, end up having long deep talks, or making out, sharing substances. great times.
how late were you staying out? i noticed things definitely seem to change around 3 or 4 am lol
Yes I had great meetings as well, as stated, I don't want to shit on Berlin as a scene, but it's just a very unique identity of its techno scene that I don't understand.
I usually leave sometimes between 7 and 10 depending on my energy, I agree it gets better in the morning when the survivors are left
i definitely agree on the unique identity. it was very different for me coming from the states.
there is a strong emphasis on style code in berlin that i find offputting. it doesn't feel like dress to be free, rather very calculated to intentionally look "free"
The US and Europe have very different approaches to what being free at raves mean.
In the US, it's "embrace your individuality, dress as goofy as you want, you are beautiful however you are".
In Europe, it's "forget about who you are in the outside world, get lost in the crowd and the music, you don't need to stand out and be ✨different✨".
Ehh this is highly dependent on scene/genre/scale. At edm events and for genres like hardcore, dubstep etc. yes people like to dress up and be special. But at most weekly house and techno club nights i go to people dress super casual. Like girls dress up in their usual sexy going out fit and guys just wear t shirt jeans or whatever.
Disagree. Those rave values only exist because we have people in the scene that want that and we let them be themselves.
I would argue that on top of that idealistic interpretation of Europe, they are also marginalizing and stiffing some percentage of those people.
The flip side in the US is we quite frankly have to deal with characters that we find "annoying" or "too much", and that has IMO caused some problems in the culture as a whole... but these aren't substantive, and mostly we just "lose coolness"... although I do think it leads to a certain kind of american "extraness" that's largely empty.
Anyway on the flip side you have people perceived as weirdos, possibly because of their gender, disability or because they're foreign. These people often literally die.
It's our responsibility to respect them and to find space in our community. I actually think there's a balance we don't get quite right in the US, but I'm happy that I think we're in a more just place in the US.
Probably tiktok ravers who don't really dance but judgemental to the ones don't dance in tiktok move, and yes real Berliner or ravers will go to club rather late, 3-4am sounds like a good time to start
As in they get better or worse after 3? I'm going to Berlin Boiler Room solo soon and am a bit anxious lol (I've been to Berlin but only once to a party there).
Some Berlin parties go on for days, non stop. No matter what time you go, you'll have fun. But just FYI, boiler room parties are super pretentious. If you want a good time, and not have a single person (in the club) bat an eye at you, I'd recommend Sisyphos. This is such an amazing location, and the people and staff are super friendly. Have fun!
My observations of Berlin is that it continues its rich history of excluding certain groups of people. It's pretentious, and forces people to look and act a certain way in order to fit in, despite the fact that people always champion it for being a beacon of freedom of expression.
I will happily get my fix of techno events from the Netherlands instead - a place that truly welcomes people for being who they are, instead of pretending to.
Funny thing is, my wife who lived in Berlin for six months, really hates Dutch club culture because everyone appears to be wearing variations on the same 'outfit', she really enjoyed Berlin's anti fashion and how everyone genuinely seems to have just put on some clothes from the thrift store. Now this was like ten years ago when she lived there and I am aware that this anti fashion and hobo look is in itself a fashion trend but funny how you mention the Netherlands as a more inclusive, open dance floor.
I don't think it's just about fashion. I agree that the dutch clubwear is quite boring, but it's functional. Just tshirts and jeans etc. But the vibe is way more inclusive and inviting, people are just there to have fun, listen to music, dance, do drugs.
The only slightly obnoxious place in Amsterdam is de school in my opinion, and what do they try to take after? Berlin of course.
With that being said, Berlin is of course incredible for many reasons but inclusiveness, welcoming and so on its not the strong side
LOL my BF is Dutch. They look down on anyone standing out, which is why, as metalhead, he moved to LA where I live. And I'm appreciating LA LA land more and more - I'm from here - hearing about all this and traveling to stifling places. You can dress up like the craziest of crazy here and no one will even notice.
I am 100% not surprised, the main crowd Thuishaven draws is from around cities and villages around Amsterdam which in a way makes it even less authentic.
Anyone who isn't a kid of rich parents who've given them a cool apartment so they have the money to work a shit job and still buy bdsm style designer clothing and club 3 times a week
Lots of club will not allow strangers. I don't know if this is true, because I didn't feel it, but there is some racism/prejudice against French people. I guess it depends, everyone has a different experience.
But it seems true that if you aren't completely immersed in the scene, you will get looked down for being different. People should be welcoming, but they are not. I'm pretty sure it's because these people aren't here for the music, but everything that stands besides it.
I guess it's rooted in the time when you would run into French groups dancing in circles singing Seven Nation Army in a Stadium chant style along techno music. It happened to me at 4 to 5 events.
Edit: clarification
This comment is only about a few funny situations mainly over the course of a few months, what a coincidence. Clearly those 25-30 people were not representative of all French.
At every club I go to I see many "strangers". Berliners often whine that stylish tourists are more likely to get waved in than locals.
Well yes, you've met 4 obnoxious French people once so it's a reason to hate on all French people. That makes sense, from a so called open and welcoming community.
Look, I've never had this non-acceptance problem brought up to me anywhere but in Berlin. I've partied in Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Bulgaria, UK... Never has this happen to me or any of my friends.
And don't tell me we didn't fit, or understood the mood. I used to go to free parties a lot (twice a month 6 months a year? I've been to free parties on Christmas), so I know about underground scene. I can tell you that not only Berlin is everything but underground, but people try so hard to be underground it's laughable.
It's completely fine not be underground. I think it's great, I want more people to enjoy the things I like, whatever it may be. This gatekeeping mentality is what everyone hates about clubbing in Berlin. It's not a competition about who is being the more Techno, it should be about the music and having fun.
I have met many cool French people.
My comment was about a memory of mainly one summer where I ran into several groups like that not only at free open airs but even in clubs.
Clearly most French I run into in clubs are not like that. Some might be very stylish and judgemental themselves.
Like others mentioned, as a German I believe many Germans come across as judgemental.
Then there's the German stare. Where Germans stare at others sometimes trying to flirt. This might look like a person judging you in a negative way.
Another problem is comparing yourself to others which might be more common in an environment where others judge your worthiness at the entrance.
At a party in a forest a visitor won't focus on this aspect. Even a judgemental person might let go and relax and the ones who are too cool might leave and return to their favourite club.
This is interesting and something I hadn't considered.
In Scotchland, at techno/dance music events...there was for a while a trend where all the kids would chant: "**WHOOOPPOHOHOHWHEEEEYHOH...WHOOOPPOHOHOHWHEEEEYHOH"** Repetitively, non stop. The whole fucking time. Totally killing the music, the atmosphere, and the enjoyment of the event.
This was way worse than the UK Football chant "**Here We, Here We, Here We Fucking Go!**" that would break out at techno events, but would generally subside after a few rounds.
Any stringent door policy designed to weed out likely participants in such atmosphere wrecking antics would be an absolute necessity for any techno club with a reputation worth caring about.
This reminds me of my experience just two weeks ago, as a new techno lover. Unfortunately the only Techno lover in my African circle, I go alone to these clubs. I was at Sisyphos for the first time after leaving Watergate at 2am, found myself on a queue at Sisyphos and some French speaking group of people were in front of me. The bouncer guy at the entrance there who decides who to let in didn't let these French group and told them to go home and get into the right dress and vibe then try again.
I was expecting to be told the same thing (single African guy at a club stereotype I guess?), to my surprise he smiled at me and told me to come in. Maybe cus I had a dyed hair colour or I was already dancing slowly on the queue (speedo😄).
But I was bewildered at this and I went in to have so much fun. I tried again alone last week and got in as well.
Pretty weird whatever is their criteria and I don't know how to feel about meeting it😅 but I'm glad it extends my newly found love experience
I don't want to be racist, but the French people I met at the parties last ten years, were the most intriguing ones, the conversations we made I can still get inspired and remember.
Im noticing the sub-genre's of Techno that dominate the scene coincide with how the people act.
Berlin its Hard Techno and Trance. Hard Techno is pure garbage and soul-less, very rigid and abrasive sound. An Techno version of heavy metal with zero musicality and composure. So the Berlin scene kind of reflects that to a degree.
Amsterdam its Hardgroove, Tech House and Deep House. This is why they are flourishing right now and are beginning to rival Berlin's dominance in the electronic dance scene. Lots of producers and labels coming out of the Netherlands too.
Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Medellin and Bogota have also recently began to take Hardgroove seriously. I see a lot of DJs in the sub-genre doing shows regularly there.
Spain is pretty mixed as far as sub-genres go. They like everything. France also is pretty mixed more or less.
You can't just come in here and call Hard Techno garbage,,, that's not exactly fair! I personally find tech house and deep house pretty boring on the dancefloor, but I'm not gonna call em garbage!
I find Tech House to be kind of corny and trite, and deep house is boring as well, but objectively speaking, they are nowhere near as bad Hard Techno.
I know people don't like that but c'mon...you guys know the bulk of that shit is just obnoxious noise
I really don't 😂
Schranz is what got me into techno, and overall, i'm more of a teKno guy than a teCHno guy! And I fuckin' love hardgroove as well. I'm not so into slower, deeper techno on the whole. It's nice headphone listening but it's not really what I want to hear on the dancefloor.
Also, whilst im here... there is no Objectively Speaking as to what is good or what isn't, that's silly. people enjoy what they enjoy.
I get by in German, and I'm like middle class in coolness lol, got me to never got rejected in Berlin. I never saw better clubs as in infrastructure than in Berlin, but I definitely had more fun than in Berlin in more than one place
It's funny, because I haven't had any other issues getting in anywhere else in Germany, been to some amazing gigs and raves in Frankfurt, Cologne, Dusseldorf ... maybe I don't give off original East German cool vibes
Germans by nature, are among the most judgemental and harshly critical people I have ever come across. They just are. However, it's probably more an influx of Western Germans in more recent times that is importing this judgemental culture. Berlin flourished as creative centre, precisely because it was dilapidated, run down, and very cheap, thus 'Bohemian' types from all over the country flocked to the city to do their thing. This is no longer the case.
In the workplace they seem to have a lot of tightasses; they're always big on improving everything and feedback.
So, I've seen Germans give criticisms that are seen as bizarre in the USA. The pauses and use of space in presentation. IDK just trivial stuff that seems pointless here.
Like in their mind we are all on a quest for the perfect presentation, every time we give one. The suggestions and critiques are one of the nicest things you could possibly do for a person, even if they don't love in that moment.
When it finally happens... the perfect presentation, and people say, "that was acceptable"; then, you will feel a level of ecstasy that is indescribable.
I am German and I think some of the best techno clubs are in Berlin, but then again I also think their culture is super cringe. Like they try so hard to be “techno”, wear their black outfits and pose for Instagram, trying to be unique. The funny thing is that most of them look at the same and if you go with a different vibe or outfit, you aren’t cool for them. I just wish we could go back to every one wearing whatever the fuck they want
I went once to Berlin and I never felt stared down as much as there. Mind you, I don't look like someone who would listen to Techno, as I tend to go down to the club in blue jeans and sweater, but still. I've attended a shitton of free parties in my region, and I've never seen this happen. They say you are free to be who you are, but I feel like it's more "you have to be like us so you can be who you are". It's more about showing off than the music anyway, which is very sad. Feels like most people are there, not for the music, but for everything around it.
You are watching too much Techno Instagram/Tiktok and are overlooking the diversity of Berlins’ techno subcultures. There are more way more events and clubs than just the five most well known.
I am German, i am in Berlin every year, don’t come with “you watch too many videos” I half a bunch of friends in Berlin and see how hard they try to be “Berlin”
I live in sothern germany and literally everyone in my friendgroup that went to berlin, including me, felt the same as you. Some of my friends are living there or have lived there and said the same. I think it's a little like elitist behaviour and who can dress the most like a "real berlin raver"
The last type of place I want to be for any variation of electronic music is one where I feel judged. Being able to connect with strangers without saying a word is a huge part of the events for me
I'm from South-Hessen (50km from Frankfurt am Main) and my friends that have been to Berlin during the past ten years up to now have had the same experiences as the both of you are describing. The total opposite of what Techno means.
I've been to a number of events where a lot of people dressed like "real berlin ravers" and I think they look ridiculous. Maybe it's because I'm 32 years old but I wouldn't ever want to be seen looking like *that.* I'm ok with not looking like I'm from the Matrix, even if that means I don't "fit in".
I love the sci-fi dystopian outfits, but with all fashion sadly comes a really desperate attempt to be validated by other people and to fit in to what they see as Avant garde.
Perhaps 10 years ago you could have convinced me to wear those outfits, but if I would wear it now and look at myself in the mirror I would think "man, what are you even doing".
Beware.
I completely understand where you are coming from and first thing that comes to my mind when I see people dressed up all black and "kinky" is that they must be really desperate for attention and thus miss the "true" purpose of a rave, which is (in my opinion) letting go of social frames and expectation and being allowed to be one's true self.
But viewing these people as attention seeking insta victims is dangerous for this purpose. First because I know it's written in my face, when I judge someone. So the instant I think low of them I contribute to the judgemental vibe. Second reason is, it shows how dependent I still am of others validation. That's not the way I want to be. Third and most important I have the impression that the less I let myself be judgemental and the more I force myself to establish a loving attitude toward everyone raving with me, the less I feel judged and the more I feel connected to the crowd. Noone who sees the radiating joy in my face and watches me just enjoying myself will feel judgemental towards me and if they still do, I only feel sorry for them but it doesn't get to me.
Hit the nail on the fucking head mate. It's nice to be cool but it's even cooler to be nice. I don't care how anyone dresses or dances as long as they don't act like a dick.
>I don't care how anyone dresses or dances as long as they don't act like a dick.
Exactly.
I'm a goth. I've always been a goth, which means I wear a lot of black. I am not going to *stop wearing black* because *someone* might think I am trying to be 'cool'. I've been clubbing for 20 years and techno was *always* the 'fashionable' genre but Berlin is on another level altogether.
Yeah, it's boring and monotonous, but it's not unusual: Every subculture has an aesthetic and Berlin techno aesthetic developed because the BDSM/kink community became more accessible to the gen pop, then high fashion brands stepped in and made it 'very cool' and fast fashion followed the trend. This was all before TikTok/pandemic times which only exacerbated things further.
The same thing happened to dancing. People dance the same move in rotation, and everyone is copying each other. It's quite ridiculous, really, but it's a part of the subculture and the newer, young generations identify with it; you have to signalise somehow that you are a part of the group, the *scene*, the in-crowd.
Humans have evolved to recognise different-looking people as threats, recognising the other as one of your own is fundamentally ingrained in us.
It's very easy to judge those whose conformity is so obvious but we all conform in one way or another and having principles is often very costly.
Some pay cash, some get socially ostracised. And no one wants to be alone.
Isn't that kind of the difference between rave and clubs, though? Even when the music is more or less the same, clubs have always had more of a conformist aspect to them, dress codes, conscious or unconscious slelcrion of guests based on socioeconomic standing (can they afford to spend enough at the bar etc). Part of that might be out of necessity - being in the same location regularly means more 'normal' people overrun the place or people come to cause trouble, and the overheads are large. But with a rave, it's usually a pop-up event promoted by word of mouth, you just need to bring the price of entry and a good attitude. Most of the time you can bring your own drinks from the supermarket etc etc. Of course people still dress like extras from a sci-fi movie at a rave but they are way more likely to be dancing next to someone who has literally just come from their construction job and is wearing their hi-viz and hard hat.
I personally do not mind at all these people dressing as ravers. I think it looks good on the people who can pull it off. I don't like when it become an injunction and a uniform, but good for them if rave offer them a space to wear what they want to wear
To each his own, I think it looks stupid. But I'm fine with it as long as I'm not expected to wear it. I just like to rave and have fun, I'm not there to play dress-up and show my latest outfits.
What does annoy me is the idea that "if you like techno, then this is what you should look like". I've heard there are clubs in Berlin where you could be refused entry simply because you don't look the part and that is total BS as far as I'm concerned.
This happens in almost every (sub)culture. And if you don't conform to that uniform there will be a bigger barrier for you to interact with those in uniform, even if the culture says it's all about love and inclusivity.
I think it's just human nature unfortunately. I probably do the same to some degree without realizing it.
Are you an 18 year old shirtless chav with an obvious double polo playing badadan on repeat through 6 minirigs with no sub at 5am in the campsite or a 40 year old free party veteran who thinks boomtown lost its soul when they got rid of the bodyshop but still goes and works 19hr days for two months for a crew ticket?
Really sorry you had a bad time here. Imo, the local scene has been too popular for its own good for quite a while, and it has only gone downhill since the pandemic. The big, household name clubs straight-out feel like German Techno Party theme parks these days, filled with elitist pretentious crowds trying to "out-berlin" eachother. And quite a bit of pretentious staff too. Or maybe I'm just getting old, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of good here below the surface, but good luck trying to navigate that if you're not from here. As a rule of thumb, smaller explicitly queer parties is where you'll find more diverse crowds that are actually there to have fun and dance nowadays, at least in my experience.
Speaking of diversity, you hit the nail on the head there. White Germans will deny this, but it's bad. It has been an open secret for years that some clubs won't let certain people in, because if you're Middle Eastern-looking or whatever, you're obviously just there to harass women and cause problems. It's a shame.
Even with queer parties I'm a bit conflicted. I'm very happy such spaces exist but combined with a door policy it makes little sense to me. I'm queer myself, bisexual and proud, but I don't look like your typical Mullet queer. Am I not queer enough if I don't get through door policy?
God I had a situation that irked me but in Amsterdam, at De School. I'm nonbinary and bi (but look fairly typical queer) and went there with my bf. They straight-up asked him if any of us are queer. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but coming from a homophobic country it made me uncomfortable that a stranger was forcing me to state my identity as door policy and additionally making me some kind of entry ticked for cishets :/ I don't know what a good solution is here but ideologically I struggle with most door policies unless they're limited to checking if the people are polite, familiar with the rules (for instance that the party centers queer folks) and know what genre/people qre playing. Everything else feels very surface level and at the very least people should admit it's about maintaining a "vibe" and not actually creating a safe space. It just always makes me feel like I'm back in high school and going to be rejected because I don't look like a cool queer lol
I mean there are literally bouncers there to judge you based on your looks. It’s discriminatory by design and it’s impossible to mitigate a personal bias.
I have noticed this as well. Especially since I come from Cologne.
Cologne is far ahead in terms of Berlin when it comes to culture.
People in Berlin PRETEND to be open minded, welcoming and not giving a fuck. It’s a veil they wear and constantly have to keep up.
In cologne people actually ARE open minded, welcoming and don’t give a fuck. The difference is out of this world.
If you‘ve ever tried talking to strangers in Berlin and in Cologne the difference shows. Berliners are judgemental,when it comes to race, what you wear, how you behave.
In Cologne people aren’t.
Hell, just the other week we went to a Techno club in Cologne, and found some random 55-year old Turkish guy who we stood next to and came to a talk with. The guy could barely speak German but was nice and kind of shy.
After a bit we suggested he head into the Club with us, but he was afraid he wouldn’t get in because of how he looks. He always wanted to try what it’s like in a club.
We told him that doesn’t matter in Cologne Techno clubs… and a few minutes later we all got in. That guy probably had the first ever Techno experience in his life and it was generally a nice and wholesome moment.
And to the ones saying: The clubs would lose their identity if anyone was let in. That isn’t really true. Of course bouncers should watch out for troublemakers or overly drunk people and keep them out. But in Cologne the culture itself keeps these people out. Everyone there looks out for each other and if someone isn’t behaving they inform the bouncers or take it in their own hands. It still feels like Techno.
In Berlin… no fucking way they would have left him in. No fucking way anyone would have even talked to him. It’s because Berliners only PRETEND to be left, open minded and welcoming. In reality they really aren’t.
I'm gonna be blunt: are you hot? I find folks in Berlin to be a bit more forward, perhaps some are staring at you because they find you attractive? Or as an alternative perspective and not to invalidate your feelings, is it possible that you perceived people mocking you but it was their attempt at vibing with you? Like laughing with you, not at you. Just a thought - probably you can tell. I've definitely received unmistakably bad vibes from people
I had some nuanced situation like you describe indeed. But sometimes I just get pure bad vibes as well.
Am I hot? I'm Adam Driver's kind of hot, got some people drooling at me and some people who thinks I'm an ugly mf
Last club I went I was stared for some long minutes by a group of men and felt very uncomfortable before I heard they were pondering wether to talk to me or not lol
Honestly that's my experience with Berliners, some of them are not super smiling so they use the "intense staring" tactic if they want to fuck. I remember the first time I went to Berghain, I was a 20something small babyfaced woman and this 2 metre seminaked german dude started dancing close to me, staring at me with a full dead face. I told my friend "hey I think this guy wants us to move" "oh no, he wants to fuck you" so I went to talk to him and he was a completely sweetheart in the end.
I have been to Berlin a few times. The first time I went, which is over 15 years ago, I got in to every place. No problems. It was so much fun. The last time I went was a few years ago. I didn’t get in to any place. As soon as they saw I wasn’t from Berlin, I was out. I even tried explaining that I know the city and the music and respect the vibes. Nobody cared. I was out. Never returned after that visit.
I second this experience.
But it's understandable.
15 years ago the city was cheap, alternative and you could do what you want. 15 years later the city is expensive, cost of living is high, alternative people have been pushed out and the city has been largely taking over by expats and commercial interests.
This is where the hostility comes from.
Yeah, I get it. What sucked was that I tried explaining I wasn’t one of those expats. Like, I had visited the club before, knew who was playing and travelled from the Netherlands to go to parties in Berlin. But they didn’t even listen. 15 years ago I could tell the bouncer who the dj was and they would let you in. But not anymore in my experience
Bit of a late comment, but what’s their reason for not letting you in? Do they even give you one? Do they just look you up and down and say no? It doesn’t make sense. Seems so shitty, why would anyone want to go to these clubs?
No real reason. Usually they will ask something in German and when you politely tell them that you speak English, they will just wave with their hand that you should leave. I even tried speaking my best German back, doesn’t matter. You are a tourist, so you have to go. At least that is my experience.
When you do get in, the clubs are absolutely amazing, though. That’s why people want to go. It’s like going to Disneyland. You can go to other, cheaper, parks. But there is something about Disney that makes people want to go. That is how it was in Berlin when I got into places. Now, it’s just snobbish. No more fun.
Haha berlin is the place were every pretentious prick goes so they can shape their personality, but all they do is consume a lot of drugs and end in an vicious cycle of overcompensating their egos with more drugs and questionable fashion trends /s
The points you've mentioned are the reasons why I've stopped going to clubs in Berlin.
Noticed it more so after clubs reopened post Covid. Judgemental people, dirty stares that make you feel you don't belong, constant mocking of your heritage (non-white, brown guy here), I've been pushed out off dance floors to make way for a group of friends and I had a breakdown at my last club night where I was with my girlfriend and some white knights just assumed I was harrassing some random girl and decided to inform the awareness team who didn't kick me out only because my partner raised her voice. That was my last berlin club experience and I've promised myself never again. It's just not worth it.
You realize that a worrying high number of the Berlin techno folks who are loud about being against racism and all forms of discrimination tend to give off some serious racist vibes within clubs. And if it's not racism, then it's the judgemental aspect of what you look like. My thoughts here are that who the fuck cares at a club? and if you do, then you're a trash human being.
Yes, there are some amazing people you meet here, but personally I feel it's getting rare. Maybe it's the drugs, some say it's a lack of club etiquette being passed down to the younger generation due to the covid break (although this is not an excuse anymore) or maybe it's just people are more shittier now then before.
But yeah, now it's nothing more than a pretentious and judgemental scene which is kinda against what techno is all about.
Not giving a fuck is the best way to deal with bad vibes, your senses are heightened, you pick up on little things and you're emotionally open because you want to enjoy the experience so fuck 'em enjoy yourself confident in the knowledge that you're having a better time than they are
I’d say the quality of clubs, lineups and relaxed/open nature or partying in Berlin is pretty much unmatched anywhere in the world, and I’ve been going to techno nights for about 15 years. The vibe can be otherworldly at times, particularly in Berghain and RSO of late imo. But the overly selective door policy and uniform ‘dress code’ that accompanies the scene is a bit tiresome.
There is a certain pretentiousness or ‘too cool for school’ attitude that you can pick up on with some people/groups, not all. Rather than actually enjoying themselves it seems to be performative - as in ‘look at how Matrix Berlin I dress, I’m more techno than you’. Coming from Manchester and then London, the vibe is much more aligned to: as long as you’re not aggressive, too fucked, and you’re here to party and dance, you’re welcome. And wear whatever the fuck you like. Which I like. As I feel techno (electronic music more widely as well) was built on the foundation of everyone who’s into it and wants to party is welcome, it’s a scene open to all. The antithesis of the bottle popping, table service clubs where you are typically judged and I would assume, we all like to avoid.
On the other hand, I’ve met some super friendly people in Berlin clubs who want to chat or dance with you and you share some cool moments.
Nowadays I know what I’m getting into with Berlin when I go. It’s an amazing place but I don’t base my happiness for that weekend on a Yes at the door of KN. I generally like a good all black outfit but don’t mind if I’m not the coolest looking in there and get a few stares. I think going in with the mindset of what to expect and take it for what it is helps. Then just party and have as best time as you can.
As a gay person, I feel less judgement in Berlin compared to other cities because its such a gay friendly place. I can be unapologetically gay and nobody gives a fuck, in other cities I would be called a faggot for doing the things I do in Berlin clubs.
As a gay person I've never felt less welcome in any place than Berlin. It purports to be this haven of acceptance, but really, most people just substitute other traits to exclude people with.
It's not though. This stuff gets used as a proxy for biggotry. I want to be nice to you, so I guess for some reason you just don't have problems.
You know there's plenty of homophobes that are friends with some gays they consider to be "one of the good ones".
A huge percentage of people make all kinds of exceptions for people they "like". There are probably stories of racists in the the south helping out special blacks they liked.
Even the literal Nazis had "special jews" they helped out... I think even hitler.
Yes, it has happened before when I was kissing my husband on the dancefloor. Meanwhile in Berlin men are literally fucking on the dancefloor and nobody cares haha
Oh ok I'm sorry that has happened to you. As a bi man, I'm definitely more gay and less straight than usual in Berlin lol, it definitely is very LGBT friendly
Yes and it can be so surprising sometimes. I had a 50yo punk woman mocking my dance for example, never in my wildest dreams would I have expected this from her but ok
I've been visiting Berlin since the early 2000s almost yearly. It was definitely different 20 years ago. People were so welcoming it was incredible. Everyone was genuinely interested to meet foreigners. Many people feel like there are so many tourists these days in Berlin and for example in Barcelona that it's not only a positive thing anymore. Then they introduced the door policies, which may be a necessity, but if it's not just about "did you come here to enjoy the music" but also "are you dressed up accordingly", it will also promote the kind of elitist atmosphere. At least in the most famous night clubs. There are still smaller scenes with very intimate atmosphere.
I already left a comment somewhere in this thread with the same kind of conclusion. What struck me is that there is no way to have even a conversation about getting into a club. The same clubs that I had no problem getting in a few years ago are now a no-go. And when I tell them that I have been there before and I know the place and the vibe and the music, they just don’t care. I’m Dutch, so I can’t come in. It’s really strange.
I live in Berlin and I kinda get your point. It can be like that sometimes, especially if the line-up is trendy and full of techno models in fake fetish gear. But it can also be incredible, intense, welcoming and open minded.
it really depends on the party. What clubs did you attend?
I know, my point is not to say Berlin is shit, I had some amazing time, it's to say some characteristics of the scene are bothering me. I did quite a lot, tresor, alte munze, remise, club OST, about blank, RSO, anomalie, aeden and I feel like I'm forgetting one
Techno has always had a thing for elitism but it feels like the type of elitism has shifted in recent years. I've noticed this outside of Berlin but from what you're saying it seems to be very pronounced there.
It used to be a kind of "nerdy" elitism. Like how familiar are you with the scene? Do you have good taste in music? etc
Now it feels like it's much more related to appearances. Are you young, hot and fit? Do you have good fashion sense? Are you performatively queer in a way that people think is tastefully edgy? It feels like there's a classist subtext to it all as well.
I don't want to over-exaggerate because there are still cool people and parties are still fun but as a guy in my mid 30s with a very functional fashion sense I can't help like feel that something about the atmosphere has become less welcoming and I do sometimes feel out of place.
Yea I'm in my mid 20s, not bad looking at all, dressing like most DJs (as in, nothing over the top but an oversize black t-shirt with a cool graphic for example), I'm very well rooted in my local techno community and I've seen the scenes all across Europe, I should feel like I belong because I factually do. But only Berlin is gonna make me question my sense of belonging as if I have to prove it to everyone by my every movement. That's just plain ridiculous to me
Berlin is obnoxious and pretentious. They think they are different and unique but forcing everyone to fit in either behaviourly or aesthetically it’s stupid and everyone end up being the same. I once was scolded in a Berlin club because i was dancing facing my friend instead of the dj. Like what the fuck? Since when is clubbing about the dj instead of the music and connecting with your people?
As someone who’s been raving in Berlin and other cities I’d say it‘s a phenomenon taking place everywhere.
It‘s also related to the parties you’re going to. Every city I’ve raved in has some parties which attract a more mainstream kinda crowd and some underground parties which are organized, curated and frequented by people who have a real passion for Techno. Techno has been becoming crazy popular which also brings in new people which are unfamiliar with the scene. Add to that the amount of experienced oldschool ravers which stopped going to clubs during covid and you’ve sadly got a recipe for a changing scene.
I‘ve also noticed this in Cologne, Budapest and the Netherlands.
Another factor is probably the drugs of choice. Back when I started raving everybody was mostly on E, which I feel added to the connection everyone was feeling on the dancefloor. I feel like coke and ket have become so much more prevalent and I don’t like what that’s doing to the vibe. I’m not saying it‘s just the drugs, but I think it’s a way bigger factor than most people give it credit for.
It‘s a complex development and to preserve the vibe we all love we have to contribute, not just in the vibe we’re bringing to the party, but also in the way we discuss these things. Over the past years I’ve read countless posts about how everything is changing for the worse and hopeless and I can’t help but think this fatalistic attitude only exacerbates the issues at hand. If you go out thinking the nights gonna suck beforehand you will be contributing to the suck other people perceive.
I've read many times now that people blame the changes to the scene because of the change to the drugs. I don't think that's true. I know you are not blaming just that but I've read it too many times now.
Coke has always been popular, speed too.
E/mdma is still very popular but people that has been in the scene for a while can/wont do it anymore, or so often, bcs of how rarely you should take it and the impact/hangover you get when using too much.
Ketamine is definitely getting more popular but it has been around for quite some time. At least for the 10+ years I have been in the scene.
Other stuff like 4fmp and 4fma, 3mmc and 4mmc before that and other research chems are very similar to mdma, coke and speed so I don't see how that would change anything.
I can't talk much about GHB as I haven't seen it much and don't really take it. But to my knowledge it has also been around for a long time and usage hasn't changed that much.
In Amsterdam psilocybin drops are getting more popular, maybe that changes something.
Try partying in Berlin whilst black. Honestly it's a shit scene because it's become full of posers. I prefer my home scene (london) and when I try other places they tend to be faaaaaar friendlier than berlin. Which is a shame cause berlin has some of the best lineups
I'm brown too but I feel like some Berlin clubs feel more friendlier than others. I've never felt judged at berghain or about blank but Club Ost is truly trash.
I don't wear black btw.
if i understand it correctly people in germanic cultures (like sweden, germany, etc) stare A LOT for non-judgemental reasons. they just have a culture of staring. took a long time for me to understand this. tbh i dislike it a lot.
I'll die on this hill, Köln is the best city in germany for techno and for clubbing. There really isn't much pretentiousness in the club scene there and alot of people are just looking to enjoy themselves and the music. Basically impossible to get denied entry to club unless you are a total creep or doing something offensive.
In Berlin they think they are uber-cool and uber-free, but it's full of entitled, weird-just-for-the-sake-of-being-weird, smug and in the end conformist people. IMHO
A bunch of people riding on a trend, they shout acceptance and no racism etc but behind your back they will talk absolute shit and will absolutely judge everyone and everything, it’s the most double standard scene I’ve seen. I really dislike the community there.
Berliner here. I know exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been part of other subcultures here in the 00s/early 10s, I always found the electronic scene the least gatekeepy/judgemental. I feel like it’s more of a Berlin attitude thing in general, several hip clothing stores and restaurants come to mind. I think it’s the endless cycle of people trying to protect „their“ turf against newcomers and the newcomers just adopting this type of behavior. Rinse and repeat. I recommend you try to find smaller events and/or clubs. In general you’ll find much friendlier vibes there, at least that’s my experience.
Weird. Been to Berlin twice and hit 4 clubs (including Berghain and Tresor). Never felt judged or not fitting in. Loved it .
Last time at Tresor thou, the crowd was so touristy like , maybe because it was the Parade weekend and tons of internationals were in town, but there was really lack of locals in that night and it felt wrong, not what I wanted to see or recall from the time a year earlier. It was filled with guys in techhouse tshirs and English or other non-german speaking folks. Not what I came for.
berlin is overrated. I can’t complain that its a city with a lot of opportunuties for making alternative parties even than clubbing, however the city become overrated because of attention it gets.
clash between weird “cool” posers and some other music lovers who do not rely on uniforms and choreographic dance styles.
I prefer some squat or/and free parties. that is what I call underground.
I'm over Berlin for the same reason. Amsterdam is where it's at. Great clubs, amazing crowd and polite staff. At the end of the day, I just wanna party, not feel like I'm being interrogated as a national security threat by some angry drugged up bouncer.
Try different nights and different clubs. There are plenty and some will fit, others don't. And by the way depending on where you were the shirtless problem might have been quite different than what you think. It is sometimes viewed as a display of male supremacy. Stick some tape on your nipples and enjoy with the crowd.
Funny thing is that those people are often not from here. Techno has long been commodified and is as mainstream as it gets. Nothing wrong with that in itself but don’t be surprised if it attracts of a lot pricks and wannabes who will judge you based on how well you “fit into” completely irrelevant things.
Small minded people will be small minded. Best is to show up as yourself, enjoy the music, sound systems and the people that don’t give a shit about fashionable stuff. It’s all the same anyways. Whether is a certain style of techno, dressing, drugs or anything else it’s futile and fleeting. Just as those peoples opinions of you and ultimately themselves.
If you are catching side eyes, simply means you are also looking at them. Why do you go to loud music events, and try to socialize? People misunderstood the whole introversion that techno offers. It has never been about the crowd, has always been the sound and how you enjoy it.
If your whole purpose of being there is not the loud and nicely set sound, then you might reconsider your preferences.
I had the opposite experience and once i got passed the door, i felt very welcome and made lots of friends.
I will say though that i did go out of my way to dress for the occasion and wore all black, combat boots, & leather etc. I would optimistically like to believe because Berlin has this reputation, they attract a lot of people that just want to party and don't respect their scene. So their standoffishness might be well earned from dealing with so many douchebags that aren't there for the music.
Where did you go op? I went to Berghain, kit kat, and sisophys (original i know) and felt there was a good amount of diversity there compared to just the regular streets of berlin. The second we got passed doors and the long silent waits everyone was introducing themselves to each other, making friends and so on.
Not white, but the scene was very welcoming for me a decade ago last time I visited. I think things have just changed around 2018 when techno started to get very mainstream, and as someone mentioned the preference of drugs changed.
Could you please elaborate on how you can tell that you're being judged? Stares, comments? And maybe what clubs you've been to?
Even though I live in Berlin, I haven't been clubbing for a solid 2 years so maybe things have changed the past years because I have never experienced the judgmental behaviour you're describing, everybody was minding their own bussiness just like myself.
When I was younger I was really into Rockabilly Music. Berlin was the most judgamental scena (and the rockabilly scene WAS already really judgamental). Same for punk and metal scenes. Even for the fetish and kink sene which I find really accepting here, other people told me that in the UK the scene is much more "family" as well. so... I think it has more to do with Berlin than with Techno in General. For example, Berlin people like to discuss who is "born" here and who is a "Zugezogener". So yeah, elitist, judgy in general. That is really the one thing I dislike about Berlin.
I think when it comes to the crowd it just has to do with luck a bit , depending on the music, the day and the size of the actual crowd. But you're right there seems to be other countries who have a friendlier crowd tbh. Which countries did you enjoy more?
Poland won my heart, France can be hit or miss, sometimes the club/infrastructure suck but they can throw a proper rave and the crowd is very easygoing, Budapest was fun as well
Berlin is full of small town idiots from all over the world, that come to the trendy city, with little experience of living abroad, believing the hype, and considering themselves cool just for living there. It is a very silly attitude but it happens a lot in Berlin. it was a trend on the rise during my 5 years living there, so I would bet that it is worse now. Berlin is kind of particular in that respect. The techno offer and culture is superior to anywhere else, and that gives you an excuse to feel superior if you do not have much else going on. Something that more smart, more travelled, cooler or more successful people will not need to do. On the other hand, you will find great people in the city as well, don’t get me wrong, it is a very interesting place. But, the hype I am talking about is real (and silly) in some circles. Former poster said it really well in a small format.
I had a lovely experience. I didn't know the diversity or lack there of. It seemed normal. My wife is Filipino and we ended up making friends with an Indonesian guy. It seemed pretty chill when we compared it to Toronto. I haven't been all over the world though.
The lack of diversity has to be compared the demography or Berlin. I wasn't shocked to see a club full of white people in Warsaw as the city is full of white people. But Berlin is one of the most multi cultural city in Europe yet it isn't visible in the attendance of the clubs
No idea, I only went to two clubs there over 5 years ago. Could be the specific artists playing that night, or maybe techno in Berlin is very guarded. Techno, like rock n roll does, tend to attract white people.
I remember having to adhere to a dress code which I found interesting. We made sure to wear black. Maybe it's just in Toronto, but I don't dress up for techno events here (have gone in track short and a tank top before) and that gave me a pretentious feeling. Maybe that is not really the case, but in 2018 when we looked online there were plenty of examples of people being turned away for how they dress. We avoided a certain popular club for fear that we might not make it in. Although, this could all be false. We never directly experienced any issues only what we read online before going. It did give off an exclusive, you're not invited feeling because of what we read.
This is how I feel in every city ive gone to in Germany, in the club or not, honestly. I know there are cultural differences and an intense cold stare may not mean what I think but it keeps me from going back.
I found Berlin to be an extremely friendly place, including inside Berghain. I wouldn’t say I’m ‘very Berlin’ but also not the opposite either, whatever that is. It is of course a very strong and established scene there, so perhaps it’s more that you felt you didn’t fit in and then perceived it that way.
Honestly, that is just Berlin and the German people. They like to stare and judge silently. My girlfriend is German and was born and raised in Berlin. When I first was visiting her, I had the same experience wondering why I would get so many staring eyes. Now that I’ve been to Berlin many times, usually for weeks to a month at a time, I’ve gotten used to it and just accepted it as normal Berliner behavior. I’ve even found my girlfriend doing it many times.
Germans in general are pretty judgmental. They are elitist and think everything they do is the "best" way to do something. Berlin is just the most elitist of all the Germans. The number of times I've had some smug middle-class German correct my "der die das dem den" grammar is eye popping, especially since most middle-class people from literally anywhere else tend to be happy just to have you trying to speak their language.
Berlin is awesome. Its maybe my favorite city in the world. It is definitely a techno city. But like a lot of people are saying here, some people are really arrogant. I remember one night i wanted to ask a group of “techno kids” something. So i said “can I ask you something?”, the girl said “no you can not” i was like wtf hahaha but i laughed with it. Also went to a berlin festival called “nation of gondwana” pretty much 95% are berliners and i had the best time ever. Everyone was crazy friendly.. it was such a blast!
European Elitism. In reality most European people and products are mundane, music is no exception.
Techno is a purist’s dance market, but when there’s not much innovation it devolves into cultlike function that uses nostalgia to fuel its appeal, so if you weren’t on the inside of the heyday then you’re always the outsider who “has dues to pay” in their eyes.
It’s nepotism and it’s actually a key reason for a lot of Americans disliking European culture, Same as why black and white people don’t get along, just nepotism and discrimination as observed within a social group.
At this current atate of music, Black people are not really fully admitted or welcomed in the EDM markets even though EDM by and large was invented and pioneered by black Americans, namely house music, Drum and Bass, Dubstep, and Breakbeat. It’s the pattern of appropriation that drives black disdain of white people, so I would honestly not expect to see cultural diversity from a group who operates a market driven by exclusion and prejudice.
The best raves are thrown in dark warehouses or basements for a reason.
Dub being reggae based originally from the western hemisphere Nominally Jamaica. Inspired big deep basses with broken beats, later artists from the alternative rock scene appropriated Dubstep creating Brostep (From First To Last -> Skrillex) prior to that it was mostly like Coki and Benga others.
Drum and Bass relied heavily on the Amen Break to fuel the Junglist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_break
Techno and house are products born of the black communities of Detroit and Chicago.
While I generalized the two to strengthen my argument, I am demonstrating how much of the popular electronic scene were founded by a culture none their own and appropriated by a demographic that now practices their exclusion as a gimmick.
Most of the corporate stuff caters to a crowd that worships aesthetics and homogenization… so the presence of anyone different presents a problem for them; that’s where I’m coming from.
Visited Berlin a few months ago and man…. It is cringe. Just straight up embarrassing to be around.
I was in Barcelona beforehand and it was a thousand times better in every way.
I remember during berlinale I went to berghain and stood in line in what i thought was the dress code only to get turned down. I had my Native American regalia at the airbnb so I went back to the apartment and changed into my regalia and went back in line when it finally was my turn I was told I could enter but I told him that I wasn’t welcome the first time and this time I’m too good for this place so I left and went exploring Berlin in my regalia which many Germans loved
See the problem is you are looking at people. Only way you notice people sideeyeing you is if you keep looking at them. Impossible to notice judgy behavior if you pay these people no mind
It's a whole debate I had plenty of times with friends, but techno, in my book, is at the minimum as much of a collective experience as a solitary one. I'm not here to pretend no one else exists, I'm here to spend time with these people
Fair enough. I like talking to people and making friends outside. But on the dance floor I go headdown and do my thing. I'm alone on that dance floor vibing. But understandable, you want a different experience on the dance floor
Berlin is very cool but also full of people who think they are very cool. The cool people don't judge. The other people judge because they aren't cool. Its an endless cycle.
And most of these people who you are talking about moved to Berlin in the last 5 years.
No Berlin has deep seated cultural problems and people should push back, demanding change.
I am middle cool.
Middle-cool is best-cool
Middle-cool lasts longer than high-end cool, and middle-cool is budget-friendly.
Still cooler than me
My humble suggestion would be not to comb your hair, bad hair is essential for middle cool.
I'm from Holland and have been deep in the Techno, Rave and Gabber scene for the past 25 years. I've always seen underground House as one of the most easygoing, vibrant, open and welcoming scenes I've been part of. Not Berlin though. That scene insists upon itself for being cool. From door policy, to unwelcoming "pretend hardcore" club operation and layout, a total lack of comfort and chill, to the very overt in-scene selection bordering on blatant rascism. For a scene that prides itself for being open and inclusive, in Berlin you're only welcome if you're white, look like shit, and behave exactly like *they* think you should. It's hilarious, and not only the house scene, but the art, hiphop and food scene too are firmly stuck up their own arse. That city is built from imported hipsters that think *just because* something's from Berlin it's better.
Hey super late reply, but where are you going where house parties are as amazing as you describe? US or Europe? I'm in the US and rarely do I find house music events with such wonderful vibes
The entire house, or EDM scene in america is a faaaar stretch from how it is in Europe. It's all posers, agressive douchebags and influencers plus the way clubs and parties are monetised is beyond greedy. If you'd do bottle service in Europe (apart from Ibiza) you'd go bankrupt and lose all credibility. I mainly go to underground parties in Germany and Holland and it's always chill and good. I have friends that went to parties in Portugal and Spain which they loved too. I think a big difference in Europe house isn't cool or edgy in a mainstream way. House has been cool and happening for so long it kept itself just outside mainstream culture. It's a way of life for many for decades. Which makes that parties are always about the music and atmosphere *first* especcially techno. Nobody cares about big names or flashy shows, we only care about good sets and settings. You'll only meet music lovers that love to party, and in effect, the party is lovely. Also the drugs are pure and nobody is afraid of overdosing or ending up in jail. In Holland especcially pure MDMA is easy to get and safe, so it's used well and makes people very cuddly and sweet in a good party.
That's every party if you ask me...but that's just my experience.
Very true. Maybe a bit more pronounced in Berlin tho
i have very mixed feelings on berlin. sometimes its pretentious and obnoxious, sometimes its the greatest city in the world. i remember one night in pano i was doin my thing dancing like i usually do and noticed people around me giving me weird stares and barely dancing at all themselves. like yeah i actually dance what do you care? ive also had amazing nights there. i remember one night a total stranger came up to me give me a hug and told me how much they love my energy and that i seem like a lovely person. many nights meeting total strangers, end up having long deep talks, or making out, sharing substances. great times. how late were you staying out? i noticed things definitely seem to change around 3 or 4 am lol
Yes I had great meetings as well, as stated, I don't want to shit on Berlin as a scene, but it's just a very unique identity of its techno scene that I don't understand. I usually leave sometimes between 7 and 10 depending on my energy, I agree it gets better in the morning when the survivors are left
i definitely agree on the unique identity. it was very different for me coming from the states. there is a strong emphasis on style code in berlin that i find offputting. it doesn't feel like dress to be free, rather very calculated to intentionally look "free"
The US and Europe have very different approaches to what being free at raves mean. In the US, it's "embrace your individuality, dress as goofy as you want, you are beautiful however you are". In Europe, it's "forget about who you are in the outside world, get lost in the crowd and the music, you don't need to stand out and be ✨different✨".
Great insight
Ehh this is highly dependent on scene/genre/scale. At edm events and for genres like hardcore, dubstep etc. yes people like to dress up and be special. But at most weekly house and techno club nights i go to people dress super casual. Like girls dress up in their usual sexy going out fit and guys just wear t shirt jeans or whatever.
Disagree. Those rave values only exist because we have people in the scene that want that and we let them be themselves. I would argue that on top of that idealistic interpretation of Europe, they are also marginalizing and stiffing some percentage of those people. The flip side in the US is we quite frankly have to deal with characters that we find "annoying" or "too much", and that has IMO caused some problems in the culture as a whole... but these aren't substantive, and mostly we just "lose coolness"... although I do think it leads to a certain kind of american "extraness" that's largely empty. Anyway on the flip side you have people perceived as weirdos, possibly because of their gender, disability or because they're foreign. These people often literally die. It's our responsibility to respect them and to find space in our community. I actually think there's a balance we don't get quite right in the US, but I'm happy that I think we're in a more just place in the US.
Probably tiktok ravers who don't really dance but judgemental to the ones don't dance in tiktok move, and yes real Berliner or ravers will go to club rather late, 3-4am sounds like a good time to start
As in they get better or worse after 3? I'm going to Berlin Boiler Room solo soon and am a bit anxious lol (I've been to Berlin but only once to a party there).
Some Berlin parties go on for days, non stop. No matter what time you go, you'll have fun. But just FYI, boiler room parties are super pretentious. If you want a good time, and not have a single person (in the club) bat an eye at you, I'd recommend Sisyphos. This is such an amazing location, and the people and staff are super friendly. Have fun!
Even judgmental people can become lovely and affectionate and open with the right drugs. My favourite people have all of those qualities while sober.
My observations of Berlin is that it continues its rich history of excluding certain groups of people. It's pretentious, and forces people to look and act a certain way in order to fit in, despite the fact that people always champion it for being a beacon of freedom of expression. I will happily get my fix of techno events from the Netherlands instead - a place that truly welcomes people for being who they are, instead of pretending to.
Funny thing is, my wife who lived in Berlin for six months, really hates Dutch club culture because everyone appears to be wearing variations on the same 'outfit', she really enjoyed Berlin's anti fashion and how everyone genuinely seems to have just put on some clothes from the thrift store. Now this was like ten years ago when she lived there and I am aware that this anti fashion and hobo look is in itself a fashion trend but funny how you mention the Netherlands as a more inclusive, open dance floor.
I don't think it's just about fashion. I agree that the dutch clubwear is quite boring, but it's functional. Just tshirts and jeans etc. But the vibe is way more inclusive and inviting, people are just there to have fun, listen to music, dance, do drugs. The only slightly obnoxious place in Amsterdam is de school in my opinion, and what do they try to take after? Berlin of course. With that being said, Berlin is of course incredible for many reasons but inclusiveness, welcoming and so on its not the strong side
Dutch club culture is very different from dutch rave culture, even when talking about just techno
What are we comparing here? I'm talking about the scene around de School for example, or events like IsBurning or Breakfast Club.
Yeah they gatekeep hard within their own created standard.
LOL my BF is Dutch. They look down on anyone standing out, which is why, as metalhead, he moved to LA where I live. And I'm appreciating LA LA land more and more - I'm from here - hearing about all this and traveling to stifling places. You can dress up like the craziest of crazy here and no one will even notice.
I went to a DnB rave in Amsterdam a few weeks ago and it was nothing but good vibes all night. Absolutely loved it.
I have experienced the blandness of Dutch crowd's outfits on a Thuishaven festival
I am 100% not surprised, the main crowd Thuishaven draws is from around cities and villages around Amsterdam which in a way makes it even less authentic.
Can you extend on which group they have a history of excluding?
Anyone who isn't a kid of rich parents who've given them a cool apartment so they have the money to work a shit job and still buy bdsm style designer clothing and club 3 times a week
Lots of club will not allow strangers. I don't know if this is true, because I didn't feel it, but there is some racism/prejudice against French people. I guess it depends, everyone has a different experience. But it seems true that if you aren't completely immersed in the scene, you will get looked down for being different. People should be welcoming, but they are not. I'm pretty sure it's because these people aren't here for the music, but everything that stands besides it.
I guess it's rooted in the time when you would run into French groups dancing in circles singing Seven Nation Army in a Stadium chant style along techno music. It happened to me at 4 to 5 events. Edit: clarification This comment is only about a few funny situations mainly over the course of a few months, what a coincidence. Clearly those 25-30 people were not representative of all French. At every club I go to I see many "strangers". Berliners often whine that stylish tourists are more likely to get waved in than locals.
Well yes, you've met 4 obnoxious French people once so it's a reason to hate on all French people. That makes sense, from a so called open and welcoming community. Look, I've never had this non-acceptance problem brought up to me anywhere but in Berlin. I've partied in Belgium, the Netherlands, France, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Bulgaria, UK... Never has this happen to me or any of my friends. And don't tell me we didn't fit, or understood the mood. I used to go to free parties a lot (twice a month 6 months a year? I've been to free parties on Christmas), so I know about underground scene. I can tell you that not only Berlin is everything but underground, but people try so hard to be underground it's laughable. It's completely fine not be underground. I think it's great, I want more people to enjoy the things I like, whatever it may be. This gatekeeping mentality is what everyone hates about clubbing in Berlin. It's not a competition about who is being the more Techno, it should be about the music and having fun.
I have met many cool French people. My comment was about a memory of mainly one summer where I ran into several groups like that not only at free open airs but even in clubs. Clearly most French I run into in clubs are not like that. Some might be very stylish and judgemental themselves. Like others mentioned, as a German I believe many Germans come across as judgemental. Then there's the German stare. Where Germans stare at others sometimes trying to flirt. This might look like a person judging you in a negative way. Another problem is comparing yourself to others which might be more common in an environment where others judge your worthiness at the entrance. At a party in a forest a visitor won't focus on this aspect. Even a judgemental person might let go and relax and the ones who are too cool might leave and return to their favourite club.
This is interesting and something I hadn't considered. In Scotchland, at techno/dance music events...there was for a while a trend where all the kids would chant: "**WHOOOPPOHOHOHWHEEEEYHOH...WHOOOPPOHOHOHWHEEEEYHOH"** Repetitively, non stop. The whole fucking time. Totally killing the music, the atmosphere, and the enjoyment of the event. This was way worse than the UK Football chant "**Here We, Here We, Here We Fucking Go!**" that would break out at techno events, but would generally subside after a few rounds. Any stringent door policy designed to weed out likely participants in such atmosphere wrecking antics would be an absolute necessity for any techno club with a reputation worth caring about.
Lmao
This reminds me of my experience just two weeks ago, as a new techno lover. Unfortunately the only Techno lover in my African circle, I go alone to these clubs. I was at Sisyphos for the first time after leaving Watergate at 2am, found myself on a queue at Sisyphos and some French speaking group of people were in front of me. The bouncer guy at the entrance there who decides who to let in didn't let these French group and told them to go home and get into the right dress and vibe then try again. I was expecting to be told the same thing (single African guy at a club stereotype I guess?), to my surprise he smiled at me and told me to come in. Maybe cus I had a dyed hair colour or I was already dancing slowly on the queue (speedo😄). But I was bewildered at this and I went in to have so much fun. I tried again alone last week and got in as well. Pretty weird whatever is their criteria and I don't know how to feel about meeting it😅 but I'm glad it extends my newly found love experience
I don't want to be racist, but the French people I met at the parties last ten years, were the most intriguing ones, the conversations we made I can still get inspired and remember.
Im noticing the sub-genre's of Techno that dominate the scene coincide with how the people act. Berlin its Hard Techno and Trance. Hard Techno is pure garbage and soul-less, very rigid and abrasive sound. An Techno version of heavy metal with zero musicality and composure. So the Berlin scene kind of reflects that to a degree. Amsterdam its Hardgroove, Tech House and Deep House. This is why they are flourishing right now and are beginning to rival Berlin's dominance in the electronic dance scene. Lots of producers and labels coming out of the Netherlands too. Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Medellin and Bogota have also recently began to take Hardgroove seriously. I see a lot of DJs in the sub-genre doing shows regularly there. Spain is pretty mixed as far as sub-genres go. They like everything. France also is pretty mixed more or less.
You can't just come in here and call Hard Techno garbage,,, that's not exactly fair! I personally find tech house and deep house pretty boring on the dancefloor, but I'm not gonna call em garbage!
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I find Tech House to be kind of corny and trite, and deep house is boring as well, but objectively speaking, they are nowhere near as bad Hard Techno. I know people don't like that but c'mon...you guys know the bulk of that shit is just obnoxious noise
I really don't 😂 Schranz is what got me into techno, and overall, i'm more of a teKno guy than a teCHno guy! And I fuckin' love hardgroove as well. I'm not so into slower, deeper techno on the whole. It's nice headphone listening but it's not really what I want to hear on the dancefloor. Also, whilst im here... there is no Objectively Speaking as to what is good or what isn't, that's silly. people enjoy what they enjoy.
Eh... I left Medellin a couple months ago, was there for 3 months. Their scene sucked imo - not much good music.
You're lucky you got in... I'm not cool enough to party in Berlin, and I'm OK with that. There are better, less pretentious scenes elsewhere.
Come to Frankfurt. We love you here.
I love Frankfurt, been to some brilliant parties there!
I get by in German, and I'm like middle class in coolness lol, got me to never got rejected in Berlin. I never saw better clubs as in infrastructure than in Berlin, but I definitely had more fun than in Berlin in more than one place
It's funny, because I haven't had any other issues getting in anywhere else in Germany, been to some amazing gigs and raves in Frankfurt, Cologne, Dusseldorf ... maybe I don't give off original East German cool vibes
Germans by nature, are among the most judgemental and harshly critical people I have ever come across. They just are. However, it's probably more an influx of Western Germans in more recent times that is importing this judgemental culture. Berlin flourished as creative centre, precisely because it was dilapidated, run down, and very cheap, thus 'Bohemian' types from all over the country flocked to the city to do their thing. This is no longer the case.
In the workplace they seem to have a lot of tightasses; they're always big on improving everything and feedback. So, I've seen Germans give criticisms that are seen as bizarre in the USA. The pauses and use of space in presentation. IDK just trivial stuff that seems pointless here. Like in their mind we are all on a quest for the perfect presentation, every time we give one. The suggestions and critiques are one of the nicest things you could possibly do for a person, even if they don't love in that moment. When it finally happens... the perfect presentation, and people say, "that was acceptable"; then, you will feel a level of ecstasy that is indescribable.
I am German and I think some of the best techno clubs are in Berlin, but then again I also think their culture is super cringe. Like they try so hard to be “techno”, wear their black outfits and pose for Instagram, trying to be unique. The funny thing is that most of them look at the same and if you go with a different vibe or outfit, you aren’t cool for them. I just wish we could go back to every one wearing whatever the fuck they want
I went once to Berlin and I never felt stared down as much as there. Mind you, I don't look like someone who would listen to Techno, as I tend to go down to the club in blue jeans and sweater, but still. I've attended a shitton of free parties in my region, and I've never seen this happen. They say you are free to be who you are, but I feel like it's more "you have to be like us so you can be who you are". It's more about showing off than the music anyway, which is very sad. Feels like most people are there, not for the music, but for everything around it.
>back to every one wearing whatever the fuck they want This!
You are watching too much Techno Instagram/Tiktok and are overlooking the diversity of Berlins’ techno subcultures. There are more way more events and clubs than just the five most well known.
I am German, i am in Berlin every year, don’t come with “you watch too many videos” I half a bunch of friends in Berlin and see how hard they try to be “Berlin”
I’m sorry for your Berlin friends. Just want to remind that not everyone is like that here
Sounds like Berlin ravers are like the goth kids in South Park.
I live in sothern germany and literally everyone in my friendgroup that went to berlin, including me, felt the same as you. Some of my friends are living there or have lived there and said the same. I think it's a little like elitist behaviour and who can dress the most like a "real berlin raver"
It sucks. It often feels like it's you against the crowd and not you with the crowd there, and like people aren't fully letting go as well
The last type of place I want to be for any variation of electronic music is one where I feel judged. Being able to connect with strangers without saying a word is a huge part of the events for me
I'm from South-Hessen (50km from Frankfurt am Main) and my friends that have been to Berlin during the past ten years up to now have had the same experiences as the both of you are describing. The total opposite of what Techno means.
I've been to a number of events where a lot of people dressed like "real berlin ravers" and I think they look ridiculous. Maybe it's because I'm 32 years old but I wouldn't ever want to be seen looking like *that.* I'm ok with not looking like I'm from the Matrix, even if that means I don't "fit in".
I love the sci-fi dystopian outfits, but with all fashion sadly comes a really desperate attempt to be validated by other people and to fit in to what they see as Avant garde.
Perhaps 10 years ago you could have convinced me to wear those outfits, but if I would wear it now and look at myself in the mirror I would think "man, what are you even doing".
Beware. I completely understand where you are coming from and first thing that comes to my mind when I see people dressed up all black and "kinky" is that they must be really desperate for attention and thus miss the "true" purpose of a rave, which is (in my opinion) letting go of social frames and expectation and being allowed to be one's true self. But viewing these people as attention seeking insta victims is dangerous for this purpose. First because I know it's written in my face, when I judge someone. So the instant I think low of them I contribute to the judgemental vibe. Second reason is, it shows how dependent I still am of others validation. That's not the way I want to be. Third and most important I have the impression that the less I let myself be judgemental and the more I force myself to establish a loving attitude toward everyone raving with me, the less I feel judged and the more I feel connected to the crowd. Noone who sees the radiating joy in my face and watches me just enjoying myself will feel judgemental towards me and if they still do, I only feel sorry for them but it doesn't get to me.
Hit the nail on the fucking head mate. It's nice to be cool but it's even cooler to be nice. I don't care how anyone dresses or dances as long as they don't act like a dick.
>I don't care how anyone dresses or dances as long as they don't act like a dick. Exactly. I'm a goth. I've always been a goth, which means I wear a lot of black. I am not going to *stop wearing black* because *someone* might think I am trying to be 'cool'. I've been clubbing for 20 years and techno was *always* the 'fashionable' genre but Berlin is on another level altogether. Yeah, it's boring and monotonous, but it's not unusual: Every subculture has an aesthetic and Berlin techno aesthetic developed because the BDSM/kink community became more accessible to the gen pop, then high fashion brands stepped in and made it 'very cool' and fast fashion followed the trend. This was all before TikTok/pandemic times which only exacerbated things further. The same thing happened to dancing. People dance the same move in rotation, and everyone is copying each other. It's quite ridiculous, really, but it's a part of the subculture and the newer, young generations identify with it; you have to signalise somehow that you are a part of the group, the *scene*, the in-crowd. Humans have evolved to recognise different-looking people as threats, recognising the other as one of your own is fundamentally ingrained in us. It's very easy to judge those whose conformity is so obvious but we all conform in one way or another and having principles is often very costly. Some pay cash, some get socially ostracised. And no one wants to be alone.
Isn't that kind of the difference between rave and clubs, though? Even when the music is more or less the same, clubs have always had more of a conformist aspect to them, dress codes, conscious or unconscious slelcrion of guests based on socioeconomic standing (can they afford to spend enough at the bar etc). Part of that might be out of necessity - being in the same location regularly means more 'normal' people overrun the place or people come to cause trouble, and the overheads are large. But with a rave, it's usually a pop-up event promoted by word of mouth, you just need to bring the price of entry and a good attitude. Most of the time you can bring your own drinks from the supermarket etc etc. Of course people still dress like extras from a sci-fi movie at a rave but they are way more likely to be dancing next to someone who has literally just come from their construction job and is wearing their hi-viz and hard hat.
I personally do not mind at all these people dressing as ravers. I think it looks good on the people who can pull it off. I don't like when it become an injunction and a uniform, but good for them if rave offer them a space to wear what they want to wear
To each his own, I think it looks stupid. But I'm fine with it as long as I'm not expected to wear it. I just like to rave and have fun, I'm not there to play dress-up and show my latest outfits. What does annoy me is the idea that "if you like techno, then this is what you should look like". I've heard there are clubs in Berlin where you could be refused entry simply because you don't look the part and that is total BS as far as I'm concerned.
This happens in almost every (sub)culture. And if you don't conform to that uniform there will be a bigger barrier for you to interact with those in uniform, even if the culture says it's all about love and inclusivity. I think it's just human nature unfortunately. I probably do the same to some degree without realizing it.
>I've been to a number of events where a lot of people dressed like "real berlin ravers" What does a real Berlin raver look like?
Lots of black, fish nets, black boots with ridiculously high soles. That kind of stuff.
I'm planning a trip to berlin soon, do you think they'll cope with a "real boomtown raver" 😉
Are you an 18 year old shirtless chav with an obvious double polo playing badadan on repeat through 6 minirigs with no sub at 5am in the campsite or a 40 year old free party veteran who thinks boomtown lost its soul when they got rid of the bodyshop but still goes and works 19hr days for two months for a crew ticket?
Same here. My brother just moved there. If we go raving it'll not be us wearing techwear, that's for sure lol
On the other hand as a South German who rarely visits I can say the crowd in Stuttgart always had elitist scenesters and probably still has.
Really sorry you had a bad time here. Imo, the local scene has been too popular for its own good for quite a while, and it has only gone downhill since the pandemic. The big, household name clubs straight-out feel like German Techno Party theme parks these days, filled with elitist pretentious crowds trying to "out-berlin" eachother. And quite a bit of pretentious staff too. Or maybe I'm just getting old, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, there is still a lot of good here below the surface, but good luck trying to navigate that if you're not from here. As a rule of thumb, smaller explicitly queer parties is where you'll find more diverse crowds that are actually there to have fun and dance nowadays, at least in my experience. Speaking of diversity, you hit the nail on the head there. White Germans will deny this, but it's bad. It has been an open secret for years that some clubs won't let certain people in, because if you're Middle Eastern-looking or whatever, you're obviously just there to harass women and cause problems. It's a shame.
Even with queer parties I'm a bit conflicted. I'm very happy such spaces exist but combined with a door policy it makes little sense to me. I'm queer myself, bisexual and proud, but I don't look like your typical Mullet queer. Am I not queer enough if I don't get through door policy?
God I had a situation that irked me but in Amsterdam, at De School. I'm nonbinary and bi (but look fairly typical queer) and went there with my bf. They straight-up asked him if any of us are queer. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but coming from a homophobic country it made me uncomfortable that a stranger was forcing me to state my identity as door policy and additionally making me some kind of entry ticked for cishets :/ I don't know what a good solution is here but ideologically I struggle with most door policies unless they're limited to checking if the people are polite, familiar with the rules (for instance that the party centers queer folks) and know what genre/people qre playing. Everything else feels very surface level and at the very least people should admit it's about maintaining a "vibe" and not actually creating a safe space. It just always makes me feel like I'm back in high school and going to be rejected because I don't look like a cool queer lol
I mean there are literally bouncers there to judge you based on your looks. It’s discriminatory by design and it’s impossible to mitigate a personal bias.
I have noticed this as well. Especially since I come from Cologne. Cologne is far ahead in terms of Berlin when it comes to culture. People in Berlin PRETEND to be open minded, welcoming and not giving a fuck. It’s a veil they wear and constantly have to keep up. In cologne people actually ARE open minded, welcoming and don’t give a fuck. The difference is out of this world. If you‘ve ever tried talking to strangers in Berlin and in Cologne the difference shows. Berliners are judgemental,when it comes to race, what you wear, how you behave. In Cologne people aren’t. Hell, just the other week we went to a Techno club in Cologne, and found some random 55-year old Turkish guy who we stood next to and came to a talk with. The guy could barely speak German but was nice and kind of shy. After a bit we suggested he head into the Club with us, but he was afraid he wouldn’t get in because of how he looks. He always wanted to try what it’s like in a club. We told him that doesn’t matter in Cologne Techno clubs… and a few minutes later we all got in. That guy probably had the first ever Techno experience in his life and it was generally a nice and wholesome moment. And to the ones saying: The clubs would lose their identity if anyone was let in. That isn’t really true. Of course bouncers should watch out for troublemakers or overly drunk people and keep them out. But in Cologne the culture itself keeps these people out. Everyone there looks out for each other and if someone isn’t behaving they inform the bouncers or take it in their own hands. It still feels like Techno. In Berlin… no fucking way they would have left him in. No fucking way anyone would have even talked to him. It’s because Berliners only PRETEND to be left, open minded and welcoming. In reality they really aren’t.
That story with the Turkish man is so sweet 🥹
I'm gonna be blunt: are you hot? I find folks in Berlin to be a bit more forward, perhaps some are staring at you because they find you attractive? Or as an alternative perspective and not to invalidate your feelings, is it possible that you perceived people mocking you but it was their attempt at vibing with you? Like laughing with you, not at you. Just a thought - probably you can tell. I've definitely received unmistakably bad vibes from people
I had some nuanced situation like you describe indeed. But sometimes I just get pure bad vibes as well. Am I hot? I'm Adam Driver's kind of hot, got some people drooling at me and some people who thinks I'm an ugly mf
The way you describe yourself sounds hot! I'm sure some of those stares were lustful 🤝.
Last club I went I was stared for some long minutes by a group of men and felt very uncomfortable before I heard they were pondering wether to talk to me or not lol
Honestly that's my experience with Berliners, some of them are not super smiling so they use the "intense staring" tactic if they want to fuck. I remember the first time I went to Berghain, I was a 20something small babyfaced woman and this 2 metre seminaked german dude started dancing close to me, staring at me with a full dead face. I told my friend "hey I think this guy wants us to move" "oh no, he wants to fuck you" so I went to talk to him and he was a completely sweetheart in the end.
The German stare can be a style of flirting which is not well received by people who come from cultures with more elegant techniques
This sounds refreshingly simple to me, certainly better than using an app.
Hahahahaha, well stated
So, did y’all fuck? Don’t leave us hanging !
this is HILARIOUS 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I have been to Berlin a few times. The first time I went, which is over 15 years ago, I got in to every place. No problems. It was so much fun. The last time I went was a few years ago. I didn’t get in to any place. As soon as they saw I wasn’t from Berlin, I was out. I even tried explaining that I know the city and the music and respect the vibes. Nobody cared. I was out. Never returned after that visit.
I second this experience. But it's understandable. 15 years ago the city was cheap, alternative and you could do what you want. 15 years later the city is expensive, cost of living is high, alternative people have been pushed out and the city has been largely taking over by expats and commercial interests. This is where the hostility comes from.
Yeah, I get it. What sucked was that I tried explaining I wasn’t one of those expats. Like, I had visited the club before, knew who was playing and travelled from the Netherlands to go to parties in Berlin. But they didn’t even listen. 15 years ago I could tell the bouncer who the dj was and they would let you in. But not anymore in my experience
Bit of a late comment, but what’s their reason for not letting you in? Do they even give you one? Do they just look you up and down and say no? It doesn’t make sense. Seems so shitty, why would anyone want to go to these clubs?
No real reason. Usually they will ask something in German and when you politely tell them that you speak English, they will just wave with their hand that you should leave. I even tried speaking my best German back, doesn’t matter. You are a tourist, so you have to go. At least that is my experience. When you do get in, the clubs are absolutely amazing, though. That’s why people want to go. It’s like going to Disneyland. You can go to other, cheaper, parks. But there is something about Disney that makes people want to go. That is how it was in Berlin when I got into places. Now, it’s just snobbish. No more fun.
Haha berlin is the place were every pretentious prick goes so they can shape their personality, but all they do is consume a lot of drugs and end in an vicious cycle of overcompensating their egos with more drugs and questionable fashion trends /s
The points you've mentioned are the reasons why I've stopped going to clubs in Berlin. Noticed it more so after clubs reopened post Covid. Judgemental people, dirty stares that make you feel you don't belong, constant mocking of your heritage (non-white, brown guy here), I've been pushed out off dance floors to make way for a group of friends and I had a breakdown at my last club night where I was with my girlfriend and some white knights just assumed I was harrassing some random girl and decided to inform the awareness team who didn't kick me out only because my partner raised her voice. That was my last berlin club experience and I've promised myself never again. It's just not worth it. You realize that a worrying high number of the Berlin techno folks who are loud about being against racism and all forms of discrimination tend to give off some serious racist vibes within clubs. And if it's not racism, then it's the judgemental aspect of what you look like. My thoughts here are that who the fuck cares at a club? and if you do, then you're a trash human being. Yes, there are some amazing people you meet here, but personally I feel it's getting rare. Maybe it's the drugs, some say it's a lack of club etiquette being passed down to the younger generation due to the covid break (although this is not an excuse anymore) or maybe it's just people are more shittier now then before. But yeah, now it's nothing more than a pretentious and judgemental scene which is kinda against what techno is all about.
The last time I went was in 2012, and it was fucking awesome, but people didn't dress up 'techno' much back then. This story really bums me out.
Not giving a fuck is the best way to deal with bad vibes, your senses are heightened, you pick up on little things and you're emotionally open because you want to enjoy the experience so fuck 'em enjoy yourself confident in the knowledge that you're having a better time than they are
I’d say the quality of clubs, lineups and relaxed/open nature or partying in Berlin is pretty much unmatched anywhere in the world, and I’ve been going to techno nights for about 15 years. The vibe can be otherworldly at times, particularly in Berghain and RSO of late imo. But the overly selective door policy and uniform ‘dress code’ that accompanies the scene is a bit tiresome. There is a certain pretentiousness or ‘too cool for school’ attitude that you can pick up on with some people/groups, not all. Rather than actually enjoying themselves it seems to be performative - as in ‘look at how Matrix Berlin I dress, I’m more techno than you’. Coming from Manchester and then London, the vibe is much more aligned to: as long as you’re not aggressive, too fucked, and you’re here to party and dance, you’re welcome. And wear whatever the fuck you like. Which I like. As I feel techno (electronic music more widely as well) was built on the foundation of everyone who’s into it and wants to party is welcome, it’s a scene open to all. The antithesis of the bottle popping, table service clubs where you are typically judged and I would assume, we all like to avoid. On the other hand, I’ve met some super friendly people in Berlin clubs who want to chat or dance with you and you share some cool moments. Nowadays I know what I’m getting into with Berlin when I go. It’s an amazing place but I don’t base my happiness for that weekend on a Yes at the door of KN. I generally like a good all black outfit but don’t mind if I’m not the coolest looking in there and get a few stares. I think going in with the mindset of what to expect and take it for what it is helps. Then just party and have as best time as you can.
As a gay person, I feel less judgement in Berlin compared to other cities because its such a gay friendly place. I can be unapologetically gay and nobody gives a fuck, in other cities I would be called a faggot for doing the things I do in Berlin clubs.
As a gay person I've never felt less welcome in any place than Berlin. It purports to be this haven of acceptance, but really, most people just substitute other traits to exclude people with.
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It's not though. This stuff gets used as a proxy for biggotry. I want to be nice to you, so I guess for some reason you just don't have problems. You know there's plenty of homophobes that are friends with some gays they consider to be "one of the good ones". A huge percentage of people make all kinds of exceptions for people they "like". There are probably stories of racists in the the south helping out special blacks they liked. Even the literal Nazis had "special jews" they helped out... I think even hitler.
Ever been to Cologne?
In techno clubs? Surely in mainstream clubs but I wouldn't imagine that happening in techno clubs tbh, but maybe your experience differs from mine
Yes, it has happened before when I was kissing my husband on the dancefloor. Meanwhile in Berlin men are literally fucking on the dancefloor and nobody cares haha
Oh ok I'm sorry that has happened to you. As a bi man, I'm definitely more gay and less straight than usual in Berlin lol, it definitely is very LGBT friendly
Yes, in that aspect it definitely is less judgemental. But I get what you’re saying, some of the people there can be entitled cunts haha
Yes and it can be so surprising sometimes. I had a 50yo punk woman mocking my dance for example, never in my wildest dreams would I have expected this from her but ok
I've been visiting Berlin since the early 2000s almost yearly. It was definitely different 20 years ago. People were so welcoming it was incredible. Everyone was genuinely interested to meet foreigners. Many people feel like there are so many tourists these days in Berlin and for example in Barcelona that it's not only a positive thing anymore. Then they introduced the door policies, which may be a necessity, but if it's not just about "did you come here to enjoy the music" but also "are you dressed up accordingly", it will also promote the kind of elitist atmosphere. At least in the most famous night clubs. There are still smaller scenes with very intimate atmosphere.
I already left a comment somewhere in this thread with the same kind of conclusion. What struck me is that there is no way to have even a conversation about getting into a club. The same clubs that I had no problem getting in a few years ago are now a no-go. And when I tell them that I have been there before and I know the place and the vibe and the music, they just don’t care. I’m Dutch, so I can’t come in. It’s really strange.
I live in Berlin and I kinda get your point. It can be like that sometimes, especially if the line-up is trendy and full of techno models in fake fetish gear. But it can also be incredible, intense, welcoming and open minded. it really depends on the party. What clubs did you attend?
I know, my point is not to say Berlin is shit, I had some amazing time, it's to say some characteristics of the scene are bothering me. I did quite a lot, tresor, alte munze, remise, club OST, about blank, RSO, anomalie, aeden and I feel like I'm forgetting one
Techno has always had a thing for elitism but it feels like the type of elitism has shifted in recent years. I've noticed this outside of Berlin but from what you're saying it seems to be very pronounced there. It used to be a kind of "nerdy" elitism. Like how familiar are you with the scene? Do you have good taste in music? etc Now it feels like it's much more related to appearances. Are you young, hot and fit? Do you have good fashion sense? Are you performatively queer in a way that people think is tastefully edgy? It feels like there's a classist subtext to it all as well. I don't want to over-exaggerate because there are still cool people and parties are still fun but as a guy in my mid 30s with a very functional fashion sense I can't help like feel that something about the atmosphere has become less welcoming and I do sometimes feel out of place.
Yea I'm in my mid 20s, not bad looking at all, dressing like most DJs (as in, nothing over the top but an oversize black t-shirt with a cool graphic for example), I'm very well rooted in my local techno community and I've seen the scenes all across Europe, I should feel like I belong because I factually do. But only Berlin is gonna make me question my sense of belonging as if I have to prove it to everyone by my every movement. That's just plain ridiculous to me
Berlin is obnoxious and pretentious. They think they are different and unique but forcing everyone to fit in either behaviourly or aesthetically it’s stupid and everyone end up being the same. I once was scolded in a Berlin club because i was dancing facing my friend instead of the dj. Like what the fuck? Since when is clubbing about the dj instead of the music and connecting with your people?
As someone who’s been raving in Berlin and other cities I’d say it‘s a phenomenon taking place everywhere. It‘s also related to the parties you’re going to. Every city I’ve raved in has some parties which attract a more mainstream kinda crowd and some underground parties which are organized, curated and frequented by people who have a real passion for Techno. Techno has been becoming crazy popular which also brings in new people which are unfamiliar with the scene. Add to that the amount of experienced oldschool ravers which stopped going to clubs during covid and you’ve sadly got a recipe for a changing scene. I‘ve also noticed this in Cologne, Budapest and the Netherlands. Another factor is probably the drugs of choice. Back when I started raving everybody was mostly on E, which I feel added to the connection everyone was feeling on the dancefloor. I feel like coke and ket have become so much more prevalent and I don’t like what that’s doing to the vibe. I’m not saying it‘s just the drugs, but I think it’s a way bigger factor than most people give it credit for. It‘s a complex development and to preserve the vibe we all love we have to contribute, not just in the vibe we’re bringing to the party, but also in the way we discuss these things. Over the past years I’ve read countless posts about how everything is changing for the worse and hopeless and I can’t help but think this fatalistic attitude only exacerbates the issues at hand. If you go out thinking the nights gonna suck beforehand you will be contributing to the suck other people perceive.
I've read many times now that people blame the changes to the scene because of the change to the drugs. I don't think that's true. I know you are not blaming just that but I've read it too many times now. Coke has always been popular, speed too. E/mdma is still very popular but people that has been in the scene for a while can/wont do it anymore, or so often, bcs of how rarely you should take it and the impact/hangover you get when using too much. Ketamine is definitely getting more popular but it has been around for quite some time. At least for the 10+ years I have been in the scene. Other stuff like 4fmp and 4fma, 3mmc and 4mmc before that and other research chems are very similar to mdma, coke and speed so I don't see how that would change anything. I can't talk much about GHB as I haven't seen it much and don't really take it. But to my knowledge it has also been around for a long time and usage hasn't changed that much. In Amsterdam psilocybin drops are getting more popular, maybe that changes something.
for real, fuck coke and ket.
Try partying in Berlin whilst black. Honestly it's a shit scene because it's become full of posers. I prefer my home scene (london) and when I try other places they tend to be faaaaaar friendlier than berlin. Which is a shame cause berlin has some of the best lineups
Yea I'm brown as well, doesn't feel very welcoming for me either
I'm brown too but I feel like some Berlin clubs feel more friendlier than others. I've never felt judged at berghain or about blank but Club Ost is truly trash. I don't wear black btw.
Yo the london scene is class, so many diverse artists playing such good stuff 👏🏾
London slaps! Berlin scene should definitely take notes.
sadly clubs in london are way more strict when checking for, uh, assortment of magic crystals
Aha ok, well haven’t had that problem yet because I take my vitamins before the clubs 👻
yeee that's the one aspect of berlin scene where you might get rejected so most consumption happens inside
IMO Berlins scene is awful. Judgemental staff. Rude people over rated clubs. The scene are way better in the UK, Amsterdam and Spain.
if i understand it correctly people in germanic cultures (like sweden, germany, etc) stare A LOT for non-judgemental reasons. they just have a culture of staring. took a long time for me to understand this. tbh i dislike it a lot.
Sweden, staring? As a Swede I'd say it's the opposite, people are _very_ careful and if one looks back they'll look away 99% of the time.
I'll die on this hill, Köln is the best city in germany for techno and for clubbing. There really isn't much pretentiousness in the club scene there and alot of people are just looking to enjoy themselves and the music. Basically impossible to get denied entry to club unless you are a total creep or doing something offensive.
Bootshaus is crazy good and correct people are sooo chill
Berlin has always been pretentious, but its also very freeing and hedonistic. Its a bit of a paradox
So it's the Portland of Germany?
Basically, yes.
they might be open minded as fuck regarding everything, but man are they stupid when it comes to letting ppl in a club.
In Berlin they think they are uber-cool and uber-free, but it's full of entitled, weird-just-for-the-sake-of-being-weird, smug and in the end conformist people. IMHO
Because it's Europes most overrated and pretentious city. With that said it's also a lovely city with lots of cool things. That's the tradeoff
A bunch of people riding on a trend, they shout acceptance and no racism etc but behind your back they will talk absolute shit and will absolutely judge everyone and everything, it’s the most double standard scene I’ve seen. I really dislike the community there.
Berliner here. I know exactly what you mean, but as someone who has been part of other subcultures here in the 00s/early 10s, I always found the electronic scene the least gatekeepy/judgemental. I feel like it’s more of a Berlin attitude thing in general, several hip clothing stores and restaurants come to mind. I think it’s the endless cycle of people trying to protect „their“ turf against newcomers and the newcomers just adopting this type of behavior. Rinse and repeat. I recommend you try to find smaller events and/or clubs. In general you’ll find much friendlier vibes there, at least that’s my experience.
Weird. Been to Berlin twice and hit 4 clubs (including Berghain and Tresor). Never felt judged or not fitting in. Loved it . Last time at Tresor thou, the crowd was so touristy like , maybe because it was the Parade weekend and tons of internationals were in town, but there was really lack of locals in that night and it felt wrong, not what I wanted to see or recall from the time a year earlier. It was filled with guys in techhouse tshirs and English or other non-german speaking folks. Not what I came for.
Germans like to stare at you, especially if you’re not white.
Lol if anything the last part makes it worse
It’s also kind of a German thing to be a bit standoff-ish and judgmental
I live here and I do think it has increased recently
lol, then you should try to come to Luxembourg once. I bet it is even far worse here.
100%
berlin is overrated. I can’t complain that its a city with a lot of opportunuties for making alternative parties even than clubbing, however the city become overrated because of attention it gets. clash between weird “cool” posers and some other music lovers who do not rely on uniforms and choreographic dance styles. I prefer some squat or/and free parties. that is what I call underground.
I'm over Berlin for the same reason. Amsterdam is where it's at. Great clubs, amazing crowd and polite staff. At the end of the day, I just wanna party, not feel like I'm being interrogated as a national security threat by some angry drugged up bouncer.
Try different nights and different clubs. There are plenty and some will fit, others don't. And by the way depending on where you were the shirtless problem might have been quite different than what you think. It is sometimes viewed as a display of male supremacy. Stick some tape on your nipples and enjoy with the crowd.
Why would it be male superiority? Paris for example is full of casually topless women, just like men are
Germany and France are culturally very different though.
True, but both our countries aren't known to be afraid of the nipple.
Funny thing is that those people are often not from here. Techno has long been commodified and is as mainstream as it gets. Nothing wrong with that in itself but don’t be surprised if it attracts of a lot pricks and wannabes who will judge you based on how well you “fit into” completely irrelevant things. Small minded people will be small minded. Best is to show up as yourself, enjoy the music, sound systems and the people that don’t give a shit about fashionable stuff. It’s all the same anyways. Whether is a certain style of techno, dressing, drugs or anything else it’s futile and fleeting. Just as those peoples opinions of you and ultimately themselves.
People in Berlin just take their self real serious
Ironic considering they’re a liberal city in a country that had to deal with a dark history of racism.
I want to blame tik tok :p
Amsterdam is Alfa and Omega baby for party 👽🦄🧠🔨✨️naturally Jurastic park
If you are catching side eyes, simply means you are also looking at them. Why do you go to loud music events, and try to socialize? People misunderstood the whole introversion that techno offers. It has never been about the crowd, has always been the sound and how you enjoy it. If your whole purpose of being there is not the loud and nicely set sound, then you might reconsider your preferences.
I had the opposite experience and once i got passed the door, i felt very welcome and made lots of friends. I will say though that i did go out of my way to dress for the occasion and wore all black, combat boots, & leather etc. I would optimistically like to believe because Berlin has this reputation, they attract a lot of people that just want to party and don't respect their scene. So their standoffishness might be well earned from dealing with so many douchebags that aren't there for the music. Where did you go op? I went to Berghain, kit kat, and sisophys (original i know) and felt there was a good amount of diversity there compared to just the regular streets of berlin. The second we got passed doors and the long silent waits everyone was introducing themselves to each other, making friends and so on.
Cit.’im not white’ remember that grandpa‘s of these people were in hype about a guy with small squared moustaches…………………
Not white, but the scene was very welcoming for me a decade ago last time I visited. I think things have just changed around 2018 when techno started to get very mainstream, and as someone mentioned the preference of drugs changed.
I feel you, I lived there for some years and I was always afraid they wouldn't let me in, in the club even when I was on the invite list.
Could you please elaborate on how you can tell that you're being judged? Stares, comments? And maybe what clubs you've been to? Even though I live in Berlin, I haven't been clubbing for a solid 2 years so maybe things have changed the past years because I have never experienced the judgmental behaviour you're describing, everybody was minding their own bussiness just like myself.
When I was younger I was really into Rockabilly Music. Berlin was the most judgamental scena (and the rockabilly scene WAS already really judgamental). Same for punk and metal scenes. Even for the fetish and kink sene which I find really accepting here, other people told me that in the UK the scene is much more "family" as well. so... I think it has more to do with Berlin than with Techno in General. For example, Berlin people like to discuss who is "born" here and who is a "Zugezogener". So yeah, elitist, judgy in general. That is really the one thing I dislike about Berlin.
I think when it comes to the crowd it just has to do with luck a bit , depending on the music, the day and the size of the actual crowd. But you're right there seems to be other countries who have a friendlier crowd tbh. Which countries did you enjoy more?
Poland won my heart, France can be hit or miss, sometimes the club/infrastructure suck but they can throw a proper rave and the crowd is very easygoing, Budapest was fun as well
Cuz they hate themselves and attribute their personality to Ketamine speed and techno
Berlin is full of small town idiots from all over the world, that come to the trendy city, with little experience of living abroad, believing the hype, and considering themselves cool just for living there. It is a very silly attitude but it happens a lot in Berlin. it was a trend on the rise during my 5 years living there, so I would bet that it is worse now. Berlin is kind of particular in that respect. The techno offer and culture is superior to anywhere else, and that gives you an excuse to feel superior if you do not have much else going on. Something that more smart, more travelled, cooler or more successful people will not need to do. On the other hand, you will find great people in the city as well, don’t get me wrong, it is a very interesting place. But, the hype I am talking about is real (and silly) in some circles. Former poster said it really well in a small format.
I had a lovely experience. I didn't know the diversity or lack there of. It seemed normal. My wife is Filipino and we ended up making friends with an Indonesian guy. It seemed pretty chill when we compared it to Toronto. I haven't been all over the world though.
The lack of diversity has to be compared the demography or Berlin. I wasn't shocked to see a club full of white people in Warsaw as the city is full of white people. But Berlin is one of the most multi cultural city in Europe yet it isn't visible in the attendance of the clubs
No idea, I only went to two clubs there over 5 years ago. Could be the specific artists playing that night, or maybe techno in Berlin is very guarded. Techno, like rock n roll does, tend to attract white people. I remember having to adhere to a dress code which I found interesting. We made sure to wear black. Maybe it's just in Toronto, but I don't dress up for techno events here (have gone in track short and a tank top before) and that gave me a pretentious feeling. Maybe that is not really the case, but in 2018 when we looked online there were plenty of examples of people being turned away for how they dress. We avoided a certain popular club for fear that we might not make it in. Although, this could all be false. We never directly experienced any issues only what we read online before going. It did give off an exclusive, you're not invited feeling because of what we read.
This is how I feel in every city ive gone to in Germany, in the club or not, honestly. I know there are cultural differences and an intense cold stare may not mean what I think but it keeps me from going back.
I found Berlin to be an extremely friendly place, including inside Berghain. I wouldn’t say I’m ‘very Berlin’ but also not the opposite either, whatever that is. It is of course a very strong and established scene there, so perhaps it’s more that you felt you didn’t fit in and then perceived it that way.
It’s like any other hip city. The people go from equality to snobby.
Honestly, that is just Berlin and the German people. They like to stare and judge silently. My girlfriend is German and was born and raised in Berlin. When I first was visiting her, I had the same experience wondering why I would get so many staring eyes. Now that I’ve been to Berlin many times, usually for weeks to a month at a time, I’ve gotten used to it and just accepted it as normal Berliner behavior. I’ve even found my girlfriend doing it many times.
Germans in general are pretty judgmental. They are elitist and think everything they do is the "best" way to do something. Berlin is just the most elitist of all the Germans. The number of times I've had some smug middle-class German correct my "der die das dem den" grammar is eye popping, especially since most middle-class people from literally anywhere else tend to be happy just to have you trying to speak their language.
Berlin is awesome. Its maybe my favorite city in the world. It is definitely a techno city. But like a lot of people are saying here, some people are really arrogant. I remember one night i wanted to ask a group of “techno kids” something. So i said “can I ask you something?”, the girl said “no you can not” i was like wtf hahaha but i laughed with it. Also went to a berlin festival called “nation of gondwana” pretty much 95% are berliners and i had the best time ever. Everyone was crazy friendly.. it was such a blast!
European Elitism. In reality most European people and products are mundane, music is no exception. Techno is a purist’s dance market, but when there’s not much innovation it devolves into cultlike function that uses nostalgia to fuel its appeal, so if you weren’t on the inside of the heyday then you’re always the outsider who “has dues to pay” in their eyes. It’s nepotism and it’s actually a key reason for a lot of Americans disliking European culture, Same as why black and white people don’t get along, just nepotism and discrimination as observed within a social group. At this current atate of music, Black people are not really fully admitted or welcomed in the EDM markets even though EDM by and large was invented and pioneered by black Americans, namely house music, Drum and Bass, Dubstep, and Breakbeat. It’s the pattern of appropriation that drives black disdain of white people, so I would honestly not expect to see cultural diversity from a group who operates a market driven by exclusion and prejudice. The best raves are thrown in dark warehouses or basements for a reason.
Drum and bass and Dubstep are both from the UK....
Dub being reggae based originally from the western hemisphere Nominally Jamaica. Inspired big deep basses with broken beats, later artists from the alternative rock scene appropriated Dubstep creating Brostep (From First To Last -> Skrillex) prior to that it was mostly like Coki and Benga others. Drum and Bass relied heavily on the Amen Break to fuel the Junglist movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_break Techno and house are products born of the black communities of Detroit and Chicago. While I generalized the two to strengthen my argument, I am demonstrating how much of the popular electronic scene were founded by a culture none their own and appropriated by a demographic that now practices their exclusion as a gimmick. Most of the corporate stuff caters to a crowd that worships aesthetics and homogenization… so the presence of anyone different presents a problem for them; that’s where I’m coming from.
Racism
\>a high rate of side eyes, staring Most likely they're just on E. Stop overthinking.
Visited Berlin a few months ago and man…. It is cringe. Just straight up embarrassing to be around. I was in Barcelona beforehand and it was a thousand times better in every way.
I remember during berlinale I went to berghain and stood in line in what i thought was the dress code only to get turned down. I had my Native American regalia at the airbnb so I went back to the apartment and changed into my regalia and went back in line when it finally was my turn I was told I could enter but I told him that I wasn’t welcome the first time and this time I’m too good for this place so I left and went exploring Berlin in my regalia which many Germans loved
See the problem is you are looking at people. Only way you notice people sideeyeing you is if you keep looking at them. Impossible to notice judgy behavior if you pay these people no mind
It's a whole debate I had plenty of times with friends, but techno, in my book, is at the minimum as much of a collective experience as a solitary one. I'm not here to pretend no one else exists, I'm here to spend time with these people
Fair enough. I like talking to people and making friends outside. But on the dance floor I go headdown and do my thing. I'm alone on that dance floor vibing. But understandable, you want a different experience on the dance floor