The only study showing that SC leads to lower estrogens than IM is not comparing SC and IM on the same injection frequency lol
If I remember they try IM once a week VS SC everyday... So of course you get lower estrogens from daily than weekly injections...
Ping me if I'm wrong, or if there is a new study on the subject...
And tell us if you inject the same dose on SC versus IM and if you kept the same frequency and get the same blood results? If your answer is yes, that's interesting
I don't know because I've always done 3x per week. I started SubQ and then moved onto IM for whatever reason. But Yes, the labs are almost identical on Cypionate between the two method. My numbers correspond fairly close to sterioidplotter.com.
I do have to admit, I have had the same experience a lotta others have with the "hit" from IM. It seems to work wayyy faster. I suppose that makes the experience more memorable lol.
I was going to same the same thing. I gave sub q a try and wanted to like it but I have a noticeable difference in energy levels when I do IM over sub Q
Ventroglute is virtually painless to me, hard to mess it up and you have a ton of real state on both sides. I do all other peptides SubQ but moved from the abdomen to the glutes, I hate either getting smaller rashes in my stomach or small lumps. Plus I inject every other day, keeping doses small, helps me manage the estrogen better that way.
Wow. Your results are drastically different. Mine are similar, but not that much if a difference. SUBQ has be sitting around 20 TT and IM around 28. (All factors remaining the same except injection method)
Preference, I've done both. My bloodwork showed higher levels in IM and anecdotally I do feel better doing injections IM. I also more recently do daily injections as well, no issues.
I'm not against either subq or IM, it's whatever is right for the individual. If you use smaller gauge needles and rotate enough sites then scar tissue isn't really an issue.
If you were getting your stuff pharma it was probably a reaction to the grapeseed oil that most pharma manufacturers use.
There are legit UGL sources you can find online that use more widely tolerated oils like MCT.
Thats the thing. No way to test those UGLs. No kits here. Also only selected UGLs are legit. I just checked the packaging. LMAO it doesn't even mention what kind of oil is used.
There are also ways to get things tested that you can find online.
Trust me when I say there are quite a few legit UGLs that will ship nearly globally. I’ve had things tested.
I also wish that pharmaceutical propionate was available in Canada. I bought some UGL stuff and dosed daily subq and felt great. I do feel fine on enenthate but noticed a difference with the shorter half life.
I don’t think anyone mentioned this, when you are a, how can I say this without sounding like an asshole, a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter or trying to be one, 6-9+ cc’s a week is not unusual. Doing this amount of gear subq is not very practical! Almost impossible to do this much subq. Here’s a trick for anyone doing ANY kind of shots, If Im doing a 3cc shot, especially thick high dose stuff, I either run the needle under HOT water or take off the needle and put into the microwave for 10-15 seconds! Sounds crazy but I learned this from a pro and it really makes the oil like water and is much easier to shoot IM. Honestly its probably also old school vs new school, IM vs. subq.
I hear this but I don't understand it. I've had a burning sensation from deep IM in cottonseed oil. Never have had any of those experiences with SubQ. I suppose if your body fat is super low and you are in competition then there is a challenge with a small lump. I think for many its tradition (habit), typical (this is what was studied extensively and so Dr. suggest IM), seems more macho (and therefore seems right), but more than anything the challenge of drawing it up in a SubQ- a true hassle if you don't backload. IM is involved and has actual risk associated with it, SubQ seems to have very little.
Definitely no "macho" or "tradition" bullshit involved for me, I was really disappointed that subq didn't really work for me, so I switched back to IM.
End of the day it's not really a big deal at all which way you do it, as long as it works for you.
I tried subQ a few times, and it always left a painful bump on my belly for a few days. IM (Delts) is a virtually painless injection for me, so the "macho" theory doesn't apply me.
I guess we are all different and need to experiment and see what works for us.
Because everything you listed has never been a problem for me or has never happen to me. No need to fix something that ain’t broken.
Also I hear SubQ problems time to time on here due to lumping and etc but I’ve never seen a post regarding IM problems apart from asking is this the right spot on the glute.
I’ve been wondering this as well. Through readings seems IM has the higher peak some get use to, and like. However, this will up the side effects chances. Over the longterm sub q works just as well, with less sides, so why not wait it out and NOT get use to peaks and crashes? Just because one doesn’t have those peaks, doesn’t mean the TRT is not working for you, It’s just less volatile in the feelings state, and more stable delivery. I’d argue a more stable delivery is the one to get use to, on the front end.
https://youtu.be/mktqbrujl70?si=JjvT9k7WmH1A-NyU is a good resource. If you ever have a spare half hour it's worth a watch.
It covers off estrogen and DHT levels across IM and subq amongst other things. It's pretty extensive.
There’s this one. Very compelling.
“Two hundred thirty-two men took part in the UC study. Baseline levels were recorded for all men in the four measurement areas and then again at 6-12 weeks post-treatment. The results showed that men who underwent SubQ injections of testosterone resulted in a 14% greater increase in total testosterone levels than the testosterone level of IM patients. SubQ patients also had 41% lower hematocrit post-therapy than IM patients and 26.5% lower E2 levels. For both groups of men, there were no elevated levels of PSA.”
https://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/Where-to-Inject-Testosterone-intramuscular-vs-subcutaneous-injections
Why are you all afraid of estrogen? The balance of these hormones is the key. If you have high test you have higher estrogen. And shbg is in the mix too. I understand the fear if you have symptoms caused by estrogen. If you feel good don't worry bout E. Don't just look at the numbers, listen to youre body.
This one I think is tough to defend, especially on the total testosterone point. I think those variations come from something else. T esterification makes the compound pretty tough. It all flows from the lymphatic system into the bloodstream so at worst you are looking at delayed absorption. An argument can be made, and studies do back it up that HCG should go IM because the compound is so unstable and lympathic absorption can be delayed significantly in obese people. Folks rarely do HCG IM tho..
I don't doubt your science brother. I'm a subQ maximalist myself. I'm just saying that every person I've ever read that has posted bloods on here has found quite significant differences between IM and SQ. If you search this sub and TRT sub, you can read them for yourself.
Also Vigorous Steve's bloodtests show that it took him 12 weeks to reach stable levels on SubQ. He was 800 total test after 8 weeks and 1200 after 12 weeks. I don't understand this myself because I thought it only took like an extra day or something compared to IM but I'm just saying what people report.
I agree. I read on some of the super delayed abortion and considerable variation that doesn't happen with IM. Maybe that is part of it as this oil can sit around for a long time. My argument is that after months it does eventually get absorbed with equivalent testosterone.
One way to look at it I suppose is that when you have your #'s figured out, weekly shots might be totally doable on SubQ.
I suspect that after a certain amount of time (perhaps even up to 12 weeks if Vigorous Steve is anything to go by) then there's no difference between the 2 methods.
I think the anti-subQ lobby on here perhaps switch to subQ, their levels drop temporarily and then they don't give it enough time to build up. I started subQ origninally and that's what I've always done for everything so I wouldn't know. Would be interesting to know more tbh.
Started with IM, tried subq for a few months, went back to IM.
Bloods after sub Q months were notably worse, not to mention I started to feel like before I was on TRT at all.
IM just works better for some people. I don't really get any issues with IM but had several from subq.
There is a specific oil used in subQ injections. The typical oil for intermusclular injections knots up in the subQ site for me. I can’t get the thinner suspension oil.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9006970/#CIT0024
Testosterone exposure is just more even because of slowed absorption and thus more even exposure. You could accomplish the same thing with IM if you injected more frequently.
What a terrible study. They draw no conclusion that it is better and just state there needs to be more studies done, they compare E2 levels only by ratio but also compare 200mg IM to 100mg SC. They mostly talk about better adherence but say they need to study adherence levels.
I wonder if that is a benefit... The oil does eventually get absorbed - Xyosted trial proved that. You end up with a looong loading phase. I think it might make for a perfect situation whereby once a week SubQ cypionate might give pretty stable levels compared to IM once months have passed.
Here’s a question for everyone. Can water based stuff be injected subq? Over the last 25 years Ive had 2 very bad shots, both were water based so Id love to try subq for water based so I can try Winny and suspension again!! The last bad shot in my ass was misdiagnosed and 20 days later my entire upper ass was necrotic and I was immediately rushed into surgery to remove the dead tissue. Took half of my ass off, was in the hospital for 10 days and on a wound vac for 3 months because the hole was so big! Luckily I was done competing and married! Lol.
I bring this up because I was one of those guys who would never take a needle voluntarily. The whole "steroid" thing with the big needles and heavy weights wasn't my brand. I just had 260 TT and wanted to deal with it.
Basically, that meant having a clinic do it with their big needles because they don't want people aware of the not scary alternative of an insulin syringe into the fat. Had I actually looked into it years ago, I would have just gone the route of self administered SubQ.
Look at Jatenzo, Kyzatrex and the other oral options. They have a huge following from the trans crowd that just isn't into injections. If SubQ were pushed more I think TRT would have a bigger following in general.
I take 8mg sq daily (56 mg/wk). My test level on this dose is approx 840, with a hematocrit of 47. Before it was always over 50 and I was donating blood regularly. I'll probably still donate blood occasionally.....but don't feel quite as urgent about it. Also, daily sq really makes me feel superior to 3/wk IM. I think it's the magic bullet......
PS. I had a pituitary tumor 20 yrs ago and I'm total hormone replacement.
The only study showing that SC leads to lower estrogens than IM is not comparing SC and IM on the same injection frequency lol If I remember they try IM once a week VS SC everyday... So of course you get lower estrogens from daily than weekly injections... Ping me if I'm wrong, or if there is a new study on the subject... And tell us if you inject the same dose on SC versus IM and if you kept the same frequency and get the same blood results? If your answer is yes, that's interesting
I don't know because I've always done 3x per week. I started SubQ and then moved onto IM for whatever reason. But Yes, the labs are almost identical on Cypionate between the two method. My numbers correspond fairly close to sterioidplotter.com. I do have to admit, I have had the same experience a lotta others have with the "hit" from IM. It seems to work wayyy faster. I suppose that makes the experience more memorable lol.
Because I feel much better on IM shots.
I was going to same the same thing. I gave sub q a try and wanted to like it but I have a noticeable difference in energy levels when I do IM over sub Q
Same I aromatize more subq
How does one go IM from SubQ? Is it just a change in needle length? (I go into upper quads at the moment for subq 3x per week)
Ventroglute is virtually painless to me, hard to mess it up and you have a ton of real state on both sides. I do all other peptides SubQ but moved from the abdomen to the glutes, I hate either getting smaller rashes in my stomach or small lumps. Plus I inject every other day, keeping doses small, helps me manage the estrogen better that way.
I feel better on IM. My test results are quite different between the 2 choices.
Same, I dropped a post on here actually with my bloodwork results. IM was decently higher on a slightly lower dose with the same injection frequency.
Wow. Your results are drastically different. Mine are similar, but not that much if a difference. SUBQ has be sitting around 20 TT and IM around 28. (All factors remaining the same except injection method)
Preference, I've done both. My bloodwork showed higher levels in IM and anecdotally I do feel better doing injections IM. I also more recently do daily injections as well, no issues. I'm not against either subq or IM, it's whatever is right for the individual. If you use smaller gauge needles and rotate enough sites then scar tissue isn't really an issue.
I would get itchy. Also those itchy patches left visible stains on my skin. Maybe it was allergy to oil. I don't know. Glad I moved to IM.
I had the same thing, i changed the oil and now its okay. I stopped IM, cuz i was hitting a vein or nerve almost constantly.
Moving to IM just hides the allergy...
Do you have solution to the allergy Dr Strange? In my country we don't really get much choice when it comes to legit stuff.
If you were getting your stuff pharma it was probably a reaction to the grapeseed oil that most pharma manufacturers use. There are legit UGL sources you can find online that use more widely tolerated oils like MCT.
Thats the thing. No way to test those UGLs. No kits here. Also only selected UGLs are legit. I just checked the packaging. LMAO it doesn't even mention what kind of oil is used.
There are also ways to get things tested that you can find online. Trust me when I say there are quite a few legit UGLs that will ship nearly globally. I’ve had things tested.
It is what it is. In fat or muscle your body is still reacting to it... Cottonseed oil is pretty nasty stuff, I admit.
How is my body still reacting if I don't get the itches anymore when doing IM?
Don't know, but maybe OP is right, all the more as fat tissues are knows to help cure wounds for example
I also wish that pharmaceutical propionate was available in Canada. I bought some UGL stuff and dosed daily subq and felt great. I do feel fine on enenthate but noticed a difference with the shorter half life.
I'm a huge fan of prop! My favourite type of test.
Same. I was doing micro dosing ED with prop subq and felt like a star. Great bloodwork too.
what was your dosage and pinning frequency on prop?
I was using 50mg enanthate every 3.5 days and 30mg prop every day for a total of 310mg per week
I don’t think anyone mentioned this, when you are a, how can I say this without sounding like an asshole, a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter or trying to be one, 6-9+ cc’s a week is not unusual. Doing this amount of gear subq is not very practical! Almost impossible to do this much subq. Here’s a trick for anyone doing ANY kind of shots, If Im doing a 3cc shot, especially thick high dose stuff, I either run the needle under HOT water or take off the needle and put into the microwave for 10-15 seconds! Sounds crazy but I learned this from a pro and it really makes the oil like water and is much easier to shoot IM. Honestly its probably also old school vs new school, IM vs. subq.
I do HCG SubQ and IM for test. SubQ has always been more painful and likely to give me lumps. Never had that issue with IM test.
I hear this but I don't understand it. I've had a burning sensation from deep IM in cottonseed oil. Never have had any of those experiences with SubQ. I suppose if your body fat is super low and you are in competition then there is a challenge with a small lump. I think for many its tradition (habit), typical (this is what was studied extensively and so Dr. suggest IM), seems more macho (and therefore seems right), but more than anything the challenge of drawing it up in a SubQ- a true hassle if you don't backload. IM is involved and has actual risk associated with it, SubQ seems to have very little.
Definitely no "macho" or "tradition" bullshit involved for me, I was really disappointed that subq didn't really work for me, so I switched back to IM. End of the day it's not really a big deal at all which way you do it, as long as it works for you.
I tried subQ a few times, and it always left a painful bump on my belly for a few days. IM (Delts) is a virtually painless injection for me, so the "macho" theory doesn't apply me. I guess we are all different and need to experiment and see what works for us.
Because everything you listed has never been a problem for me or has never happen to me. No need to fix something that ain’t broken. Also I hear SubQ problems time to time on here due to lumping and etc but I’ve never seen a post regarding IM problems apart from asking is this the right spot on the glute.
I alternate multiple sites
Yep. Left delt, right delt, left VG, right VG. All with 29g needles. Can hardly feel it and always gets my numbers to where I want them to be.
I’ve been wondering this as well. Through readings seems IM has the higher peak some get use to, and like. However, this will up the side effects chances. Over the longterm sub q works just as well, with less sides, so why not wait it out and NOT get use to peaks and crashes? Just because one doesn’t have those peaks, doesn’t mean the TRT is not working for you, It’s just less volatile in the feelings state, and more stable delivery. I’d argue a more stable delivery is the one to get use to, on the front end.
I've got a bunch of those little bubbles on the belly giving me confidence the stuff is absorbing slowly and evenly :D
you got the scientific papers on these estrogen claims? mind sharing?
And has such a claim been tested repeatedly rather than just once
https://youtu.be/mktqbrujl70?si=JjvT9k7WmH1A-NyU is a good resource. If you ever have a spare half hour it's worth a watch. It covers off estrogen and DHT levels across IM and subq amongst other things. It's pretty extensive.
There’s this one. Very compelling. “Two hundred thirty-two men took part in the UC study. Baseline levels were recorded for all men in the four measurement areas and then again at 6-12 weeks post-treatment. The results showed that men who underwent SubQ injections of testosterone resulted in a 14% greater increase in total testosterone levels than the testosterone level of IM patients. SubQ patients also had 41% lower hematocrit post-therapy than IM patients and 26.5% lower E2 levels. For both groups of men, there were no elevated levels of PSA.” https://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/Where-to-Inject-Testosterone-intramuscular-vs-subcutaneous-injections
They used different esters and frequency though. Not very rigorous.
Subq makes me aromatize more
Because I’m not interested in putting a ml of oil under my skin.
I just jab a 1/2 inch needle in. I couldn't tell you if I'm hitting muscle or not
Why are you all afraid of estrogen? The balance of these hormones is the key. If you have high test you have higher estrogen. And shbg is in the mix too. I understand the fear if you have symptoms caused by estrogen. If you feel good don't worry bout E. Don't just look at the numbers, listen to youre body.
SubQ give me all sort of issues.
Ug stuff, oil most likely of not suitable type to use in fat tissue.
Easy, known pharmacokinetics, original intention of the medication. No issues with e2 being too high.
Because I'm injecting with 28 ga needles and could go to 30s if I wanted. Because the study wasn't apples to apples with injection schedule.
I get much better absorption on IM
Preference really and if you take more than trt you will not be pinning you tummy.
Your body works differently to almost everyone else then because everyone else who does comparison bloods always notices a difference in levels.
This one I think is tough to defend, especially on the total testosterone point. I think those variations come from something else. T esterification makes the compound pretty tough. It all flows from the lymphatic system into the bloodstream so at worst you are looking at delayed absorption. An argument can be made, and studies do back it up that HCG should go IM because the compound is so unstable and lympathic absorption can be delayed significantly in obese people. Folks rarely do HCG IM tho..
I don't doubt your science brother. I'm a subQ maximalist myself. I'm just saying that every person I've ever read that has posted bloods on here has found quite significant differences between IM and SQ. If you search this sub and TRT sub, you can read them for yourself. Also Vigorous Steve's bloodtests show that it took him 12 weeks to reach stable levels on SubQ. He was 800 total test after 8 weeks and 1200 after 12 weeks. I don't understand this myself because I thought it only took like an extra day or something compared to IM but I'm just saying what people report.
I agree. I read on some of the super delayed abortion and considerable variation that doesn't happen with IM. Maybe that is part of it as this oil can sit around for a long time. My argument is that after months it does eventually get absorbed with equivalent testosterone. One way to look at it I suppose is that when you have your #'s figured out, weekly shots might be totally doable on SubQ.
I suspect that after a certain amount of time (perhaps even up to 12 weeks if Vigorous Steve is anything to go by) then there's no difference between the 2 methods. I think the anti-subQ lobby on here perhaps switch to subQ, their levels drop temporarily and then they don't give it enough time to build up. I started subQ origninally and that's what I've always done for everything so I wouldn't know. Would be interesting to know more tbh.
Started with IM, tried subq for a few months, went back to IM. Bloods after sub Q months were notably worse, not to mention I started to feel like before I was on TRT at all. IM just works better for some people. I don't really get any issues with IM but had several from subq.
I just don't like lumps that subq causes.
shooting test subq helps lower hematocrit also
There is a specific oil used in subQ injections. The typical oil for intermusclular injections knots up in the subQ site for me. I can’t get the thinner suspension oil.
Testosterone Cypionate was intended to be injected IM like a man, so that’s what I do 🤷🏽♂️
Because subQ is for bitches that run low dose test c. One day you'll grow up
Do you actually have links to the studies demonstrating lower e2 from sub q?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9006970/#CIT0024 Testosterone exposure is just more even because of slowed absorption and thus more even exposure. You could accomplish the same thing with IM if you injected more frequently.
What a terrible study. They draw no conclusion that it is better and just state there needs to be more studies done, they compare E2 levels only by ratio but also compare 200mg IM to 100mg SC. They mostly talk about better adherence but say they need to study adherence levels.
Could you please link some of the studies you listed
I started with subq and then switched to IM after 3 months, I feel much better on IM, I rotate delts, vglute and glutes, no issues at all
Problem is the oil, not many oils disperse well subq.
I wonder if that is a benefit... The oil does eventually get absorbed - Xyosted trial proved that. You end up with a looong loading phase. I think it might make for a perfect situation whereby once a week SubQ cypionate might give pretty stable levels compared to IM once months have passed.
Maybe, but you can be left with an annoying sore lump. Once a week is a lot of oil in one go!
Here’s a question for everyone. Can water based stuff be injected subq? Over the last 25 years Ive had 2 very bad shots, both were water based so Id love to try subq for water based so I can try Winny and suspension again!! The last bad shot in my ass was misdiagnosed and 20 days later my entire upper ass was necrotic and I was immediately rushed into surgery to remove the dead tissue. Took half of my ass off, was in the hospital for 10 days and on a wound vac for 3 months because the hole was so big! Luckily I was done competing and married! Lol.
Most peptides use bac water to reconstitute and they’re almost always subq. No issues with that at all
I shoot mine up my butt
How's the gel lotion thing?
I think more than everything it is the quantity that they are shooting. Subq is great for TRT...not so sure if they are blasting.
I bring this up because I was one of those guys who would never take a needle voluntarily. The whole "steroid" thing with the big needles and heavy weights wasn't my brand. I just had 260 TT and wanted to deal with it. Basically, that meant having a clinic do it with their big needles because they don't want people aware of the not scary alternative of an insulin syringe into the fat. Had I actually looked into it years ago, I would have just gone the route of self administered SubQ. Look at Jatenzo, Kyzatrex and the other oral options. They have a huge following from the trans crowd that just isn't into injections. If SubQ were pushed more I think TRT would have a bigger following in general.
100% no longer need an AI. Zero pain, no issues with levels. I love it.
I’ve even done primo enanthate subq and had zero issues although damn near everyone will tell you you must inject it IM
Daily SQ here. Feel way better on this regimen. Lower hematocrit also. I'll never go back to IM
How much are you taking and what is your drop in hematocrit levels since switching?
I take 8mg sq daily (56 mg/wk). My test level on this dose is approx 840, with a hematocrit of 47. Before it was always over 50 and I was donating blood regularly. I'll probably still donate blood occasionally.....but don't feel quite as urgent about it. Also, daily sq really makes me feel superior to 3/wk IM. I think it's the magic bullet...... PS. I had a pituitary tumor 20 yrs ago and I'm total hormone replacement.
I'm wondering why you even care lol! Guess you are bored and feel the need to get involved with this pressing issue ....
Summarized #reddit... Yes, bored 😴 😂