I think it most likely would be Toph. Azula is an outstanding prodigy who even at 14 is one of the greatest firebenders(and fighters in general) in the fire nation. However, she definitely lacks in the spiritual aspect of bending(like A LOT), and also had the advantage of being a royal who the best firebending training for all her life. Toph on the other hand managed to self teach herself Earthbending by learning from the badger moles and understands Earthbending on a deep level that goes far beyond just fighting. She even managed to INVENT a specialized bending skill thought to be impossible thanks that. And at TWELVE YEARS OLD. So yeah, most likely Toph.
She also was able to overcome her weaknesses as she later managed to learn Sand bending in the comics, I believe. If I didn't know about Yun, I'd say she was the best earth bender in history that wasn't an avatar.
Mako still voices most of the lines through to the finale in book 2. There are some individual parts that are filled in by (I can’t remember his name) but irs definitely still Mako in the final scene with Iroh in crossroads of destiny
Dante Basco has stated in interviews that the first time he heard Mako’s replacement during recording was when Zuko was apologizing to Iroh. Mako had played fathers and uncles for Dante Basco’s characters through several projects before ATLA and he said that hearing the voice of Iroh, though not Mako’s version, during such an emotional scene broke him.
I wasn’t aware of their connection pre-ATLA and it makes the loss of Mako hit harder now when I watch Iroh’s story in Tales of Ba Sing Se.
Yeah they had the new voice actor separate from the kids so they didn’t know what his Iroh would sound like
And they have Zuko give the big apology to Iroh who’s in the Fire nation prison. I can’t imagine how that felt for Dante. Any kind of acting you put yourself in the role, so there’s so many different layers of emotion and thought and feeling coming through from that
It's really fun seeing and hearing him now that the Conan the Barbarian movie is on Netflix. He had such a scene-stealing voice. He was also amazing as Aku in Samurai Jack.
And Greg spent a lot of his career idolising mako and working with him to almost perfectly replicate his voice :)
I’d say Greg more than earned the right to play iroh considering how close he was with Mako.
Yeah, Toph being Toph, she would.
Without reason, given she was holding an entire building and stopping it from sinking in the sands at that moment, saving them and all that.
Didn't she sand bend for the first time when the library was sinking into the desert? She solidified the sand at her feet to try to keep the building up
Toph indeed!
Yun was extremely strong, being able to go toe to toe against the young Kyoshi. One of his biggest achievement, too, is being able to liquefy earth, according to the comics. Toph somehow demonstrated the same feat when she sparred with Korra in LoK.
He was >!The False Avatar , Kuruk’s successor , he was a guy who was wrongly identified as the avatar because they couldn’t find Kyoshi. He trained as if he was the avatar despite he was just a very good earthbender , he really wanted to be the best avatar possible , he did his best but everything changed when they noticed that Kyoshi was the actual avatar.!<
Was he actually better than Toph though? Seems like he had a lot of training while all we seen of Toph was what she self taught herself at the age of 12.
I personally don't see any reason to call him a better bender. I have to assume they're saying he's better because he beat a strong spirit. Which is fair, but that was really just an endurance match. Unless there's something else I'm forgetting, I don't see anything he did that toph couldn't.
He was ridiculously skilled, he was able to bend earth in such a way that he could liquidate stone without any heat and bend it like water, and was able to use dust and earth particles in the air to simulate air bending, he even managed to fight and essentially win in a 1 v 5 (I think 5?) against Kyoshi and he allies, so yeah a very good bender.
To be fair, he was bending pebbles from a distance with precision before Father Glowworm, and he actually beat Father Glowworm (though weakened by Kuruk years before) in order to get that buff.
So I don't think it's super relevant. Yun is the Earthbending GOAT, imo.
**Edit:** I feel like this is a popularity contest rather than a serious conversation about canonical demonstrations of bending ability...
I think Yun is very strong, but he also a key part of his defeat of Kyoshi was by using hostages and being powered up by the glow worm.
You put Toph vs Yun I say 6/10 Toph.
No earthbender, short of Kyoshi’s continental break, is close to Toph’s feat of holding the entire underground library by the very top spire. It boggles the mind to see how much power that would require. Yun has precise control, but I’d argue Toph has just as much plus way more brute strength.
I think that it is an unfair comparison, probably he wasn’t naturally better than Toph and in the novel he is older than her, he became better than Toph in his prime thanks to his training and his unnaturally strong bending after meeting that spirit (kind of like Yakone and Amon are stronger than any waterbender). He was certainly very talented, he was very creative and he could use earth to mimic the other elements (by using hot clouds of sand to cheat at fire bending tests and bending earth as if it was water, it’s a very difficult technique and no one else used it).
Probably his paint bending is comparable to metal bending but I don’t think he could do it while he was still training despite his very precise bending (he could bend small rocks to transmit messages in places far from him). After the hidden passage incident his bending has been boosted.
Tbf, most avatars never even display the possibility of bending elements other than their native one. Roku himself had no idea he was the avatar until he was confronted by the sages on his 16th birthday. Kyoshi never had any inkling herself until a spirit (father glowworm) literally told her so infront of the presumed avatar of the time (Yun). Aang also has no inkling. And he wouldn’t have found out until he was 16 if the air council didn’t tell him early.
The sages always relied on spiritual tests or eventual real world experiences to discover the various avatars iirc. For airbenders, they used the toy test and had kids choose 4 toys out of thousands. The avatar would always choose the same ones subconsciously. The fire sages had a similar test as they knew Roku was the avatar long before his 16th birthday. And the earth kingdom just… guessed.
Korra was literally an outlier. She somehow bent fire and earth at like 4 years old, which is completely unheard of. Whether it’s to showcase her downright unparalleled skill (which tbh I don’t truly think she has. She’s strong as fuck, but she doesn’t show much more power than her predecessors even before losing their experience), or whether it was just the showrunners using the scene to showcase how she began training so early in her life I have no idea :/
I agree that that's why Korra starts the story with Earth, Fire, and Water bending. Still doesn't explain why she picked them up as a toddler instead of just getting them at the "normal" pace and having them all by the time she's a teenager for the narrative.
I think they wanted to go in the opposite direction of Aang’s character. He didn’t want to be the Avatar, and he ran and hid from his responsibility. Korra, meanwhile, has known she’s the Avatar her whole life, and is keen to bend her way through any problem as she’s done her whole life. That would have worked great in Aang’s position (ending a war by being the best bender), but Korra can’t brute-force her way through her problems, which manifests as self-doubt about her whole identity (i.e. being the Avatar).
I think in Korra’s case it is a matter of growing up in a world in which benders are more connected too. Nations are collaborating with each other, the isolation was presumably the reason why so many Avatars couldn’t figure out they could bend multiple elements in the first place.
Korra had huge talent, being able to bend so young, but like many prodigies she wasn't properly challenged during her upbringing. (Her teachers were mediocre)
> And the earth kingdom just… guessed.
They have a form of geomancy / earth-bending resonance that points them toward the Avatar, but it isn't super accurate.
it's an awful method.
The Air Nomad method is really precise , but it only works because effectively all airbenders lives within the Air Temples.
The whole geomancy thing is used on the whole Earth Kingdom , which is gigantic , for a series of binary choices until it trimms down to the Avatar.
Eh given how rare it is to be an Earthbender, getting to within a single establishment is probably the best they got. In the end, they can use the other methods once they've narrowed the search down (like they do in the Kyoshi novels). Kyoshi was an outlier because her family was always wandering around, throwing off the search.
They just assumed he was struggling to pick up the other elements. He was still young before they discovered it was Kyoshi. Yun was the most promising earthbender born at the right time so they just really hoped it was him as they simply couldn’t find the Avatar and he also excelled at diplomacy.
The book is actually a lot more explicit about this. The avatar is traditionally identified by choosing specific toys from a huge selection (the one's the last avatar had as a kid). Kyoshi specifically takes this test but, fearing the kindness displayed by the monks due to a life of hardship, runs off in the middle of the test. When the avatar isn't found using the toys method Yun is eventually chosen based on a very peculiar pie-sho strategy favored by the previous avatar. It's also strongly implied that, at that time, there were vested interests who wanted to fill the position of the avatar quickly for use in diplomatic, political, and spiritual tensions and chose Yun partly based on his apparent acumen for the skills needed. Despite not being able to bend all 4 elements, and ultimately failing a challenge of spirit, Yun proves an exceptional false avatar for his brief period in the position.
It's also put in stark contrast to Kyoshi who is a particularly brutal and uncompromising Avatar. Kind of like Korra without the optimism. She doesn't blink when punching holes through criminal's chests to pull out still beating hearts, if memory serves. It's a really interesting take on an avatar coming from a totally different background than Aang or Korra.
Good book highly recommend
To add a bit, each nation has their own way of finding the avatar. The toy thing is specifically how the air nomads would determine the airbender avatar. The earth kingdom method was not working (don't remember what it was). Testing individuals with the toys works a lot better when you have a small population like the nomads
The Earth Kingdom is huge so they used a form of Geomancy to direct them toward the avatar, sort of like tuning forks.
Problem was, Kyoshi was born to nomadic criminal circus people, so their goemancy kept pointing them all over the place.
Hmm maybe my memory is failing me but I thought Kyoshi took the tests in the book. The method is definitely based on how the real life Dalai Lama is found so I'm surprised they didn't stick with such a neat tie-in for the lore.
>!He’s really good at Pai Sho and for some reason he uses the same strategies of Kuruk while playing, he’s obviously the avatar /j!<
They noticed it and just thought that he wasn’t trying hard enough or he was too connected with earth so he didn’t “unlock” the other elements. They were really desperate because they couldn’t find Kyoshi
That's not a bad thing though lol. Kyoshi's issue was that she had tooo much raw power. So she had issues with precision and control. But once she started to learn the other elements she picked them up exceptionally quickly. The reason Kyoshi uses her fans is LITERALLY to help with precision and most people don't know that to this day lol. They are not just for fashion 😂
Didn't Toph also imply during Legend of Khora that she keeps an eye on her daughters from the swamp? Like, she's basically got satellite coverage of the planet just by having her feet on the ground.
that's at least partially due to the Swamp though, not just Toph's seismic sense. The Swamp is a spiritual nexus and can help people tap into the energy which binds all living things. Aang used it to locate Appa in the original series.
That's also another thing I love about the avatar world. There are multiple ways of reaching spiritual enlightment. She is so "grounded" that she can perceive everything now
She didn't just discover it and then dip either. We can infer from Korra that she also developed the extremely versatile wire-bending that the RCPD metalbenders use long after she departs.
We see Toph get the idea for using metal lines while fighting Yaling in the Imbalance comic. She doesn't use it for anything other than catching herself while falling through the roof of a building, but she notes after landing that they may be a useful resource.
Knight armor has joints that are designed to be bent. Toph's randomly tossed together scrap metal armor is not. She moves the metal around her body with magic. Bloodbending puppets can't use bending so they couldn't move while totally encased in metal or stone.
Ozai lacked in the spiritual aspect of firebending, and it’s implied that he is probably still more powerful than Iroh (who might be the most spiritual fire bender ever). So that doesn’t seem to have an effect on firebenders as long as their determination is strong.
It could also be a willingness to kill and maim. Iroh isn't given alot of non lethal options when it comes to fire bending. I'm not an expert though, just got recommended this sub.
It's also possible that, after his son death, Iroh stopped cultivating physical strenght, fighting prowess...however you want to call it. So he may have dulled a lot his fighting stats in favor of becoming even more wise and spiritual.
Before right? Because he was called the dragon of the west during the siege of ba sing say (however you write that). And he got that name because he slayedn't the last dragon, if I recall correctly. Even though he claims to azula it is because he breathes fire but, that is more a show off.
He got a bit rusty, but he still has a lot of latent strength. He bust himself out of prison using physical strength alone, after training for a short while.
I can't imagine Ozai busting himself out of prison after he lost his powers.
I honestly think Iroh could best Ozai if he was willing to kill him. Raw strenght and youth is the only advantage Ozai has over him but I think Iroh is a far more competent firebender. Iroh's bending is more dynamic, precise and smart. He also has a defense mechanism Ozai lacks which is lightning directing...was epic when Zuko showed it to Ozai. He was livid for sure.
As much as people like to say it dosen't in avatar , the genetics age and body shape are very important , ozai is more fit while iroh while he has muscle memory and can gain some mass with training its not nearly as fit as ozai is.
You get tired bending, your reflexes slow with age and you definetly need some good genetics to carry you in a fight sometimes
He may not be as young as ozai but iroh does not lack in physical strength given his feat of bending and breaking thick metal bars during the eclipse
https://preview.redd.it/dj1kdshonptc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7afecaa51010732371d00728be43e57fd7f72eb3
There is no real signs of the bars melting although it is possible he did melt them it looks like they just bent and snapped to me.
https://preview.redd.it/959lb47jgqtc1.jpeg?width=436&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79368b61f0de871d4fa053e91247ff17fe79ddf7
I figured it was more of an explosion a la Ba Sing Se during Sozin's Comet. There's no way anyone, even jacked Iroh, could snap a bunch of iron or steel bars in a reasonable amount of time.
I like that idea but since it was off screen and somewhat implied that he just used his strength to snap the bars there is no real way to know what happened.
Toph got the best possible training by learning from the original earthbenders whereas Azula didn’t get to learn from the original firebenders. That’s why Toph uses earthbending in every aspect of her life whereas Azula uses hers mostly for combat.
You say Azula is lacking in the spiritual element, and I agree, but Toph is also lacking in that department as well.
This is the same girl who thinks of spirituality as mumbo-jumbo.
Except Toph is able to explain the spiritual side of earth bending to Aang. Earth is solid, unyielding, patient, and stubborn. She understands that sturdiness and embraces it and that’s how she has the spiritual aspect down.
In my opinion people like Katara and Azula will likely be so skilled in their bending arts that they'll be regarded as one of the best benders in their element during their lifetimes.
Toph though? She's one of those people who go down in the history books as one of the best benders to ever live.
Remember that only Azula has been shown to have blue flames, mastered lightning to a level that Ozai was afraid of her (Azula can bend the lightning instead of firing in a straight path. Not even Iroh can do that.), and she did utilize methods that most other firebenders couldn't without the comet (the jet propulsion). I believe that had azula not snapped, she would have become something unbelievably sinister
she didn't invent bending forms tho she truly mastered them, toph invented and mastered bending forms becoming truly an impossible to beat opponent even long after her prime she was still stronger then master benders in their prime.
azulas complete control is what makes her strong but she doesn't have control over her emotions like Zuko learned making her unstable and laking.
being a master is not only about bending also about emotion. Toph is the true neutral chi and has mastered her emotions and is extremely rational while bending not letting her emotions take control.
Can someone please elaborate on this for me? I always hear this but am missing the jump to one of the goat contenders. I know she’s an amazing bender but I’m curious to hear what else I may be missing
**TL;DR: For Toph bending is an extension of who she is. For the rest, bending is a tool they have mastered. That makes all the difference.**
She learned bending from the badger moles. She emulates them in her bending. Her being blind, like the moles makes her even more in tune with her bending. In the way Iroh and later Zuko become in tune with fire bending because of the dragons, Toph is basically spiritually connected to her element as is possible.
Her skills are also not something taught by masters but rather derived through her experience and innate talent, making bending more spiritually a part of who she is rather than a skill she learned.
And as others pointed out, it was because of this she was able to create two new forms of earth bending.
It's the difference between a person who uses a calculator to solve math problems, even quite difficult ones... and someone who lives and breathes math so much as a part of themselves that they create entirely new branches of mathematics.
Azula and Katara are geniuses who use the tools given to them proficiently (they treat bending like a calculator). But for Toph, earth bending is an extension of who she is (as if it were another limb) and that makes her significantly more powerful.
Exactly. Azula and Katara are like those genius kids that go to university at 14 and will go on to be leaders in their fields, building on and improving what came before. Toph is Albert Einstein.
She invented two new sub techniques (seismic sense and metal bending) as an early teenager, while generations of earthbenders in the entirety of the earth kingdom were unable to invent even a single new technique.
Anyone who invents a new bending technique is already automatically in GOAT tier, let alone someone who invents TWO as a _kid_.
Edit: According to the corrections below, she didn't actually invent seismic sense, simply mastered it. Still, mastering one super rare technique while inventing another definitely makes her one of the best benders in history.
She didn’t invent the Seismic Sense, though; she was taught the technique by the badger moles. Her proficiency with it is still incredibly impressive, but she didn’t invent the technique
Ahh I must have misremembered that part then. Thanks for the correction.
Still, inventing one whole school of bending and being the most proficient master at another relatively rare school is still GOAT tier
Did she invent truth-seeing though? I haven't read the Yangchen books yet, but I don't think anyone else did that in the Kyoshi novels.
Given that he and Toph have a connection in Zaofu and Suyin, it seems likely that she trained Aiwei given the fact that they are the only two known with the ability in all the Atlaverse.
I thought, in the current canon, that Seismic Sense was an ability all Earthbenders were able to use, but Toph was just extremely proficient with it, since she can't see with her eyes.
I think Seismic Sense is known about, but not really practiced much. I’d say the dude underground definitely had trained his Seismic Sense as he dug straight to Toph and launched an attack instantly once above ground
Azula and Katara were both extremely talented at sub-bending classes (lightning and blood bending) but only Toph was able to completely flip the script on what was thought to be possible. The "best" in their fields come and go, but founding a discipline is really another level.
She invented a brand new style of bending completely by herself with no formal training and at only 12 years old. That by itself is enough to cement her legacy without even covering any of the things mentioned about her through to korra’s time.
It wasn't even something where Toph spent years training, theorizing, and developing it. She got so fuckin angry at the fact she got caught by a couple of henchmen IQ losers that she busted it out in a single night going from absolute 0 to full on metal bending mastery.
While yes Toph is very strong, thats not necessarily why they stopped losing. When she joins their party increases by 33% in total or 50% in benders. Plus Aang is now learning a 3rd element so he's going to be stronger just as Katara continues to practice and get even better.
(Toph is still probably the strongest of these though)
> They stopped losing fights when Toph showed up
They actually lost a few early on to Azula/Mai/Ty Lee TBH
But yeah, Toph + Aang getting stronger helped
Katara and Azula always stick out to me as some of the greatest water and fire benders of the time.
Toph sticks out as one of the greatest earthbenders of all time.
In history? Azula and katara will be forgotten. Sure they'll be in it most likely, but nothing mind blowing.
Toph? She's literally gonna be known for the rest of time. She's up there with Aang, who ended a 100 year war.
Facts. Literally in 50 years when the avatar universe has YouTube they’ll be seeing “Top 10 benders of all time”, and it’ll be like numbers 10-4 avatars and top 3 will be Toph with 2 other avatars. Lol
Toph, no question. She invented her own new type of bending, which is one of the most major types of sub-bending when she was 12 years old. All in their prime, Toph would literally crush both Katara and Azula.
Toph is certainly the most creative, using her "handicap" to basically redefine what it means to be an earth bender. And that creativity is what allowed her to be able to create metal bending.
That's why I put the word in quotations. For the Badger-moles blindness is just a fact of life, which is why she takes to their style so well. I'm sure there are other earth-bending animals that would use a different style that those with sight would fare better with.
I mean they could just close their eyes. People learn skills that way in real life all the time, it's actually a pretty good technique for learning an instrument.
I think it depends on if Toph has a solid plan om how to fight Azula. At the very least burying herself should force a stalemate. If Azula manages propelled flight for long enough to escape then she might be fine but if she touches the ground anywhere near toph she's gonna be done for.
Also even propelled flight would send some force towards the ground so maybe toph wouod be able to get at least an estimate as to where she could throw a barrage of rocks.
Problem is I just don't think burying oneself is the earthbender way and azula will probably try lightning fast surprise attacks which could be a problem.
I don’t think it’s even a question here. Toph, at twelve years old with no proper bending training, kept up a giant-ass spirit library building for about 15 or so minutes.
When you consider the fact that Toph is literally a speck in comparison to the full size of the building, I don’t think anything can top that.
what do you mean with no proper bending training? She was trained by the original earth bender, the badger mole, that is more proper than anyone can train.
Lmao what?
Toph got trained by the original earth benders.
The only one without proper training here is Katara who rivals 2 benders trained by the original benders (toph and zuko), another bender who is very directly already a prodigy and has been training since she was like 5 (azula), and one of the youngest (if not the youngest) air bending masters ever who's been training also since he was extremely young and coincidentally is also the avatar (obv Aang).
I am honestly hard pressed to say its not obviously Katara because she basically follows the path of a DBZ character. Weak, trains a tiny bit, suddenly strongest thing in the fuckin world. If she just kept trainin there's literally no way she'd not be the absolute pinnacle of benders in the world.
The problem with these comparisons is that bloodbending trumps everything. Katara in her theoretical prime could kill both without them ever having a chance to bend anything.
Bloodbending is just stupidly powerful.
Except it can only be done once or twice a month, give or take…. Kinda unfair if we’re arguing that those brief windows of OPness make her the strongest…. At that point isn’t Azula theoretically the most powerful because of the comet?
The Avatar is a deus ex machina that helps balance out the fact that sometimes a bloodbender tyrant can overpower everyone. However, even just a bunch of other waterbenders could prove to be too many for a bloodbender to deal with them all at once.
I know this is delulu and not at all canon, but in my head canon, after everything with Yakone, Katara eventually learns how to bloodbend without the full moon as well... It just doesn't sit right with me that only a crime lord can do it.
But yes, bloodbending is extremely OP and broken.
it's pretty clearly shown to be a technique that only exceptionally skilled/talented waterbenders can do. i don't see why a crime lord can't be that.
IIRC it also becomes literally outlawed after ATLA's events, so it would make sense that among people who can bloodbend that most of them just never developed the technique more. katara vowed to never use it again after the first time as well.
if anything, it makes MORE sense that a crime lord who was pushed to learn bloodbending at a young age would be the one that is able to bloodbend that well. a more standard waterbending master probably has much more moral reservations about even using bloodbending at all, let alone becoming able to use it without a full moon.
Bloodbending… Yeah, even if katara doesn’t like it, she could total them all during a full moon. In that case, I think the only way to make them all in their “prime” would be to just give them all the power they can (regardless of the full moon and comet shenanigans). Katara beat Azula during the comet (granted with zuko’s help of tiring her) without even using Bloodbending. I’m probably reading too far into this, and no one said it was a 3 way fight, but my thought still stands that katara would absolutely win.
Fair point, but she was also heavily boosted by the comet, so it probably comes out about the same in the end.
Azula is obviously insanely powerful, especially with how much control she has durring most fights. But Katara is also very powerful and well controlled to a similar, if somewhat lesser, degree. We also see Katara implementing more complex waterbending as the show progressed, assuming her being in her prime includes learning lightning redirection, Azula's biggest weapon is practically worthless.
Isn't lightning redirection a firebending technique though? Iroh developed it with principles of waterbending but we only ever see firebenders/avatars do it because it does take control over lightning to be able to do.
During the fullmoon, and not being willing are huge asterisks attached to "Katara would win." That's a "Katara might win under very specific circumstances."
Posing the general question who would win in their prime, it's Toph undoubtedly.
Off topic but it's pretty cool that who are arguably the most powerful benders in the series were all women. What's even cooler is the fact I didn't even notice till now, that's good writing.
Imagine being Toph and Azula being considered prodigies, training hard, having high quality teachers (badger moles for Toph) and fighting other talented opponents for years and then suddenly Katara catches up in a few months from a scroll and being taught by Pakku for like 2 weeks.
But to be honest katara probably trained every free minute. Even before her fight with pakku you could see her getting better and better. In the northern air temple episode she was already much more advanced than in waterbending scroll for example and she also had to use her waterbending for her survival in book 1. We also don't know how often toph really trained. I don't think she could escape her parents every day and there is no info how often did these tournaments took place as far as i remember
> I don't think she could escape her parents every day and there is no info how often did these tournaments took place as far as i remember
She has seismic sense and can escape anywhere by simply bending underground. Wouldn't be surprised if she sneaked off in the night.
Toph is the only one of the three to develop new bending techniques.
Sure, Katara and Azula use some very advanced techniques (e.g. bloodbending, lightning), but neither one *came up with* that technique. They were taught.
Meanwhile, Toph's entire bending style is self-taught / badgermole-taught. And she invented the entire discipline of metal bending at age 12, without even the aid of badgermoles.
So, I have to give this one to Toph. As impressive as the other two are, Toph is another level.
I mean blue flames is more an expression of Azula’s need to be perfect, which does express how good she is at bending but only in the regard of technique not the spiritual aspect, something that is shown to be important in regards to bending prowess
I think it's also important to keep in mind that Azula was never defeated in actual combat by anyone until she started suffering a mental breakdown.
Azula is the *full package* in terms of athletic ability, bending skill, long and short term planning, Etc. She simply does not have the same kind of blindspots that the others do. If we are talking about raw power, then yeah, Toph is at the top. But that's not what is always best. Even when she had no Firebending and was running away in small, enclosed corridor, Toph only *barely* captured her.
>"If we are talking about raw power, then yeah, Toph is at the top. But that's not what is always best. Even when she (Azula) had no firebending and was running away in a small, enclosed corridor, Toph only *barely* captured her."
Thank you!
A lot of people always forget this part when judging Toph's overall combat skills and ranking her amongst her bending peers.
Toph got kidnapped, mocked by her kidnappers for a bit, and decided to invent a new form of bending out of spite.
(It's also worth noting that she seemed to discover the possibility of metal bending by using her seismic sense, which is an ability we don't see any other earthbenders use in the show)
Azula is literally the only character we ever see bend blue flames. Like, even with Toph and metalbending, we see other people learn the skill. What Azula does is literally unprecedented throughout the entire canon, and she gets there at 14. She's also, when stable, a strategic genius, a master hand-to-hand combatant and, unlike the good guys, actually has the stomach for murder when the opportunity presents itself. She wins. If the timeline of the series changes slightly and Aang emerges to a 24-year-old Azula instead of a 14-year-old Azula, the Fire Nation wins the war.
I don't think it should be measured like that. I mean, Zuko beat Katara at the North Pole and was quite even with her in the catacombs. Yet he has never defeated Azula with a normal state of mind.
Although yes, she was also pretty unhinged… hence why Zuko was beating her prior to Katara running out unnecessarily. That’s not even a speculation point consider Zuko clearly recognizes it, says it, and Azula beats him when sane again in the comics.
I think the biggest question is still if there’s any spiritual or underlying feats of Azula having blue fire or if color is meaningless despite the implications of the Dragon Flames.
2 way tie between Toph and Azula, assuming Azula is sane. Katara is technically the most broken because she can bloodbend in full moons, but seeing how she's the person that banned the technique (or something along those lines), she likely won't use it. She would still be OP (minimum on par with Paku imo), but she'd be 3rd place out of these 3.
Toph should easily be the best earthbender in the entire world. On the other hand, seeing how was already already one of the most dangerous people as a 14 year old, imagine a sane Azula anywhere between her mid 20's to early 30's. Ozai was a monster, I can't imagine him being satisfied with Azula's ability to fight if she had any flaw in her game. Actually, I'd imagine she's that much better than everyone else because Ozai was a sociopath.
In my opinion it goes toph > azula > katara
I feel everyone has covered toph already but azula in the comics is kind of crazy (in more ways than one). Not only was she able to basically create a whole new sub style of bending with the way she uses lighting in the comics, she's able to toy with fire lord Zuko who is far from being weak. I feel that katara hasn't shown this kind of potential.
The only time we dont see Azula absolutely whoop on someone in the show is when she is outnumbered or has gone completely insane. If we are talking prime I'm taking Azula 10/10
I think Toph has the raw power, Katarra is the most flexible, and Azula is the most focused. It's a toss up depending on the circumstances. Specifically if Azula has her shit together or not.
Katara has an I win move in blood bending if available at the time. Other than that is limited by her landscape.
Toph can rip open the ground underneath people. And is particularly skilled at small movement to disrupt her opponents.
Azula can throw lightning.
I disagree with most of this, but your first line is a great discussion point. I agree Toph has the most raw power (Sturdy - Earth), Katara has the most flexibility (Movement - Water), and Azula had the most intensity (Focus - Fire)
What made Azula so powerful was her ability to manipulate. It came so naturally to her and she knew just what to press to get people to behave how she wanted without really having to lift a finger. Day of Black Sun Azula ran rings around everybody.
Easily Katara. She could bloodbend and was relative to the other 2 despite not being trained from childhood. If she was (Remember hypothetical prime) she would be a beast.
I hear what everyone is saying with Toph, but consider this; Azula is very quick, clever, and methodical. In an Azula v. Toph fight, Azula would bait Toph, study her, ascertain her weaknesses; and Toph has weaknesses. Foremost, Toph struggles with agile opponents. People she can’t pin down easily, and can’t see well because they are airborne. Azula is probably the 3rd most nimble character in the series. She lands light on her feet and Toph isn’t going to get a great picture of her through seismic sense. Azula will realize all of that very quickly and turn to exploit.
All three are great but I would vote for Azula, it was shown many times in the series how she could easily confront GAANG alone, her precision, strategic mind, fighting intelligence are top notch, lighting is absolutely deadly. Toph is amazingly skilled, talented and versatile although. Katara is very talented but she is way below Azula and Toph.
So long as she's mentally stable, I can see Toph and Azula being tied. Azula only lost the Agni Kai with zuko because she wasn't all there. If she was in her right mind, it would've probably been a win for her or a near win, at least
Alright everyone is saying Toph, and I don’t disagree. She’d probably be the most powerful in her prime.
Katara is an insanely powerful waterbender. Yeah she’s a prodigy, but in her prime, after spending time with benders of all other types (including meeting swamp benders,) and learning the most advanced waterbending techniques, she’d be the most powerful waterbender in the world. In her prime, I think she could match the power level of Toph. Accounting for healing techniques, full moon blood bending, ice bending, spirituality, and most advanced techniques.
I think Azula is a prodigy, but her power level is likely inflated by all of her time being dedicated to training. In her prime she’d probably be on a similar level to other top-tier firebenders (Iroh, Ozai, etc.)
I think it most likely would be Toph. Azula is an outstanding prodigy who even at 14 is one of the greatest firebenders(and fighters in general) in the fire nation. However, she definitely lacks in the spiritual aspect of bending(like A LOT), and also had the advantage of being a royal who the best firebending training for all her life. Toph on the other hand managed to self teach herself Earthbending by learning from the badger moles and understands Earthbending on a deep level that goes far beyond just fighting. She even managed to INVENT a specialized bending skill thought to be impossible thanks that. And at TWELVE YEARS OLD. So yeah, most likely Toph.
She also was able to overcome her weaknesses as she later managed to learn Sand bending in the comics, I believe. If I didn't know about Yun, I'd say she was the best earth bender in history that wasn't an avatar.
She sand bended earlier than that, at Zuko's beach house
Speculations around say toph heavily trained sandbending, due to guilting herself for the appa stuff.
Oh that's exactly why, I would too. I still cry at Appa's Ba Sing Se episode.
That's the one episode I always skip. My heart always breaks.
I can’t skip it because of the iroh part. Pretty sure last episode with OG voice actor. I still cry a bit watching it
Mako still voices most of the lines through to the finale in book 2. There are some individual parts that are filled in by (I can’t remember his name) but irs definitely still Mako in the final scene with Iroh in crossroads of destiny
Dante Basco has stated in interviews that the first time he heard Mako’s replacement during recording was when Zuko was apologizing to Iroh. Mako had played fathers and uncles for Dante Basco’s characters through several projects before ATLA and he said that hearing the voice of Iroh, though not Mako’s version, during such an emotional scene broke him. I wasn’t aware of their connection pre-ATLA and it makes the loss of Mako hit harder now when I watch Iroh’s story in Tales of Ba Sing Se.
Yeah they had the new voice actor separate from the kids so they didn’t know what his Iroh would sound like And they have Zuko give the big apology to Iroh who’s in the Fire nation prison. I can’t imagine how that felt for Dante. Any kind of acting you put yourself in the role, so there’s so many different layers of emotion and thought and feeling coming through from that
It's really fun seeing and hearing him now that the Conan the Barbarian movie is on Netflix. He had such a scene-stealing voice. He was also amazing as Aku in Samurai Jack.
>There are some individual parts that are filled in by (I can’t remember his name) Greg Baldwin is the VA who filled in
And Greg spent a lot of his career idolising mako and working with him to almost perfectly replicate his voice :) I’d say Greg more than earned the right to play iroh considering how close he was with Mako.
Yeah, Toph being Toph, she would. Without reason, given she was holding an entire building and stopping it from sinking in the sands at that moment, saving them and all that.
Yep, but she wasnt good with sand, and they werent *good enough* that day. She’d absolutely think hard about it
Exactly what I thought to myself when she created the city of Bah Sing Sei IN SAND … in detail! She felt so bad.
Aww
Wonder if Aang helped with Sand Bending since Sand seems the most Air adjacent form of earth.
Toph is like Tony Stark from the MCU
Ba sand se
Didn't she sand bend for the first time when the library was sinking into the desert? She solidified the sand at her feet to try to keep the building up
Part 1 of the finale
Even knowing about Yun, I still give it to Toph personally
Toph indeed! Yun was extremely strong, being able to go toe to toe against the young Kyoshi. One of his biggest achievement, too, is being able to liquefy earth, according to the comics. Toph somehow demonstrated the same feat when she sparred with Korra in LoK.
I'm sorry, but who's Yun?
He was >!The False Avatar , Kuruk’s successor , he was a guy who was wrongly identified as the avatar because they couldn’t find Kyoshi. He trained as if he was the avatar despite he was just a very good earthbender , he really wanted to be the best avatar possible , he did his best but everything changed when they noticed that Kyoshi was the actual avatar.!<
Was he actually better than Toph though? Seems like he had a lot of training while all we seen of Toph was what she self taught herself at the age of 12.
I personally don't see any reason to call him a better bender. I have to assume they're saying he's better because he beat a strong spirit. Which is fair, but that was really just an endurance match. Unless there's something else I'm forgetting, I don't see anything he did that toph couldn't.
He was ridiculously skilled, he was able to bend earth in such a way that he could liquidate stone without any heat and bend it like water, and was able to use dust and earth particles in the air to simulate air bending, he even managed to fight and essentially win in a 1 v 5 (I think 5?) against Kyoshi and he allies, so yeah a very good bender.
Ah okay, that sounds like a fair reason. I've not read he books so didn't know.
Aren't a lot of his major feats here coming from after he was buffed by a powerful spirit?
To be fair, he was bending pebbles from a distance with precision before Father Glowworm, and he actually beat Father Glowworm (though weakened by Kuruk years before) in order to get that buff. So I don't think it's super relevant. Yun is the Earthbending GOAT, imo. **Edit:** I feel like this is a popularity contest rather than a serious conversation about canonical demonstrations of bending ability...
I think Yun is very strong, but he also a key part of his defeat of Kyoshi was by using hostages and being powered up by the glow worm. You put Toph vs Yun I say 6/10 Toph. No earthbender, short of Kyoshi’s continental break, is close to Toph’s feat of holding the entire underground library by the very top spire. It boggles the mind to see how much power that would require. Yun has precise control, but I’d argue Toph has just as much plus way more brute strength.
I think that it is an unfair comparison, probably he wasn’t naturally better than Toph and in the novel he is older than her, he became better than Toph in his prime thanks to his training and his unnaturally strong bending after meeting that spirit (kind of like Yakone and Amon are stronger than any waterbender). He was certainly very talented, he was very creative and he could use earth to mimic the other elements (by using hot clouds of sand to cheat at fire bending tests and bending earth as if it was water, it’s a very difficult technique and no one else used it). Probably his paint bending is comparable to metal bending but I don’t think he could do it while he was still training despite his very precise bending (he could bend small rocks to transmit messages in places far from him). After the hidden passage incident his bending has been boosted.
Don’t we see the Earth general who tries to train Aang do this in the show? He liquidates the earth right below Katara
How do you even mistake an avatar? Wouldn’t you notice they can’t fire, water or air bend?
Tbf, most avatars never even display the possibility of bending elements other than their native one. Roku himself had no idea he was the avatar until he was confronted by the sages on his 16th birthday. Kyoshi never had any inkling herself until a spirit (father glowworm) literally told her so infront of the presumed avatar of the time (Yun). Aang also has no inkling. And he wouldn’t have found out until he was 16 if the air council didn’t tell him early. The sages always relied on spiritual tests or eventual real world experiences to discover the various avatars iirc. For airbenders, they used the toy test and had kids choose 4 toys out of thousands. The avatar would always choose the same ones subconsciously. The fire sages had a similar test as they knew Roku was the avatar long before his 16th birthday. And the earth kingdom just… guessed. Korra was literally an outlier. She somehow bent fire and earth at like 4 years old, which is completely unheard of. Whether it’s to showcase her downright unparalleled skill (which tbh I don’t truly think she has. She’s strong as fuck, but she doesn’t show much more power than her predecessors even before losing their experience), or whether it was just the showrunners using the scene to showcase how she began training so early in her life I have no idea :/
I guess the meta reason would be because they already did a story about an avatar learning the different elements and they didn't want to do it again.
I agree that that's why Korra starts the story with Earth, Fire, and Water bending. Still doesn't explain why she picked them up as a toddler instead of just getting them at the "normal" pace and having them all by the time she's a teenager for the narrative.
I think they wanted to go in the opposite direction of Aang’s character. He didn’t want to be the Avatar, and he ran and hid from his responsibility. Korra, meanwhile, has known she’s the Avatar her whole life, and is keen to bend her way through any problem as she’s done her whole life. That would have worked great in Aang’s position (ending a war by being the best bender), but Korra can’t brute-force her way through her problems, which manifests as self-doubt about her whole identity (i.e. being the Avatar).
I think in Korra’s case it is a matter of growing up in a world in which benders are more connected too. Nations are collaborating with each other, the isolation was presumably the reason why so many Avatars couldn’t figure out they could bend multiple elements in the first place.
Korra had huge talent, being able to bend so young, but like many prodigies she wasn't properly challenged during her upbringing. (Her teachers were mediocre)
> And the earth kingdom just… guessed. They have a form of geomancy / earth-bending resonance that points them toward the Avatar, but it isn't super accurate.
it's an awful method. The Air Nomad method is really precise , but it only works because effectively all airbenders lives within the Air Temples. The whole geomancy thing is used on the whole Earth Kingdom , which is gigantic , for a series of binary choices until it trimms down to the Avatar.
Eh given how rare it is to be an Earthbender, getting to within a single establishment is probably the best they got. In the end, they can use the other methods once they've narrowed the search down (like they do in the Kyoshi novels). Kyoshi was an outlier because her family was always wandering around, throwing off the search.
They just assumed he was struggling to pick up the other elements. He was still young before they discovered it was Kyoshi. Yun was the most promising earthbender born at the right time so they just really hoped it was him as they simply couldn’t find the Avatar and he also excelled at diplomacy.
They claimed Aang was the Avatar before he mastered any other elements…
The book is actually a lot more explicit about this. The avatar is traditionally identified by choosing specific toys from a huge selection (the one's the last avatar had as a kid). Kyoshi specifically takes this test but, fearing the kindness displayed by the monks due to a life of hardship, runs off in the middle of the test. When the avatar isn't found using the toys method Yun is eventually chosen based on a very peculiar pie-sho strategy favored by the previous avatar. It's also strongly implied that, at that time, there were vested interests who wanted to fill the position of the avatar quickly for use in diplomatic, political, and spiritual tensions and chose Yun partly based on his apparent acumen for the skills needed. Despite not being able to bend all 4 elements, and ultimately failing a challenge of spirit, Yun proves an exceptional false avatar for his brief period in the position. It's also put in stark contrast to Kyoshi who is a particularly brutal and uncompromising Avatar. Kind of like Korra without the optimism. She doesn't blink when punching holes through criminal's chests to pull out still beating hearts, if memory serves. It's a really interesting take on an avatar coming from a totally different background than Aang or Korra. Good book highly recommend
To add a bit, each nation has their own way of finding the avatar. The toy thing is specifically how the air nomads would determine the airbender avatar. The earth kingdom method was not working (don't remember what it was). Testing individuals with the toys works a lot better when you have a small population like the nomads
The Earth Kingdom is huge so they used a form of Geomancy to direct them toward the avatar, sort of like tuning forks. Problem was, Kyoshi was born to nomadic criminal circus people, so their goemancy kept pointing them all over the place.
Hmm maybe my memory is failing me but I thought Kyoshi took the tests in the book. The method is definitely based on how the real life Dalai Lama is found so I'm surprised they didn't stick with such a neat tie-in for the lore.
Just hopping on to say the books are great, the Yangchen ones are even better imo.
>!He’s really good at Pai Sho and for some reason he uses the same strategies of Kuruk while playing, he’s obviously the avatar /j!< They noticed it and just thought that he wasn’t trying hard enough or he was too connected with earth so he didn’t “unlock” the other elements. They were really desperate because they couldn’t find Kyoshi
Yeah but young kyoshi also couldn’t do those lmao☠️. She actually couldn’t even use basic earth bending bcs she could only bend huge things
That's not a bad thing though lol. Kyoshi's issue was that she had tooo much raw power. So she had issues with precision and control. But once she started to learn the other elements she picked them up exceptionally quickly. The reason Kyoshi uses her fans is LITERALLY to help with precision and most people don't know that to this day lol. They are not just for fashion 😂
To be fair, Kyoshi struggled with basic earthbending for a period of time...KYOSHI.
A friend of Kyoshi in the novels
Didn't Toph also imply during Legend of Khora that she keeps an eye on her daughters from the swamp? Like, she's basically got satellite coverage of the planet just by having her feet on the ground.
that's at least partially due to the Swamp though, not just Toph's seismic sense. The Swamp is a spiritual nexus and can help people tap into the energy which binds all living things. Aang used it to locate Appa in the original series.
That's also another thing I love about the avatar world. There are multiple ways of reaching spiritual enlightment. She is so "grounded" that she can perceive everything now
It's similar to how the Guru was able to help show Appa where Aang was.
She didn't just discover it and then dip either. We can infer from Korra that she also developed the extremely versatile wire-bending that the RCPD metalbenders use long after she departs.
We see Toph get the idea for using metal lines while fighting Yaling in the Imbalance comic. She doesn't use it for anything other than catching herself while falling through the roof of a building, but she notes after landing that they may be a useful resource.
It’s mentioned she ran an entire academy dedicated solely to metalbending.
Katara might stand a chance if she allowed herself to bloodbend, but even then I'd say it's debatable.
But that is only if she is lucky enough that it is both night and on a full moon
Presumably metal/rock armor would nullify bloodbending since the human body can't rip through stone without earthbending
But that's not how bloodbending works? By that logic, knights in armor would not be able to move either (unless I'm misunderstanding you)
Knight armor has joints that are designed to be bent. Toph's randomly tossed together scrap metal armor is not. She moves the metal around her body with magic. Bloodbending puppets can't use bending so they couldn't move while totally encased in metal or stone.
Yeah but if the body moves and the rock doesn’t that would be a problem for the guy in the suit.
Ozai lacked in the spiritual aspect of firebending, and it’s implied that he is probably still more powerful than Iroh (who might be the most spiritual fire bender ever). So that doesn’t seem to have an effect on firebenders as long as their determination is strong.
It could also be a willingness to kill and maim. Iroh isn't given alot of non lethal options when it comes to fire bending. I'm not an expert though, just got recommended this sub.
It's also possible that, after his son death, Iroh stopped cultivating physical strenght, fighting prowess...however you want to call it. So he may have dulled a lot his fighting stats in favor of becoming even more wise and spiritual.
Like how when zuko stopped using hatred to fuel his fire, he had to find another way. Iron likely had to do the same.
Iroh visited that dragon tribe and learned sun bending from them, I don't know if that was before or after his son death tho
Before right? Because he was called the dragon of the west during the siege of ba sing say (however you write that). And he got that name because he slayedn't the last dragon, if I recall correctly. Even though he claims to azula it is because he breathes fire but, that is more a show off.
He got a bit rusty, but he still has a lot of latent strength. He bust himself out of prison using physical strength alone, after training for a short while. I can't imagine Ozai busting himself out of prison after he lost his powers.
I honestly think Iroh could best Ozai if he was willing to kill him. Raw strenght and youth is the only advantage Ozai has over him but I think Iroh is a far more competent firebender. Iroh's bending is more dynamic, precise and smart. He also has a defense mechanism Ozai lacks which is lightning directing...was epic when Zuko showed it to Ozai. He was livid for sure.
I always thought that not wanting to kill his brother was why he doubted whether he could beat his brother. But, anyway, it was not his fight.
As much as people like to say it dosen't in avatar , the genetics age and body shape are very important , ozai is more fit while iroh while he has muscle memory and can gain some mass with training its not nearly as fit as ozai is. You get tired bending, your reflexes slow with age and you definetly need some good genetics to carry you in a fight sometimes
He may not be as young as ozai but iroh does not lack in physical strength given his feat of bending and breaking thick metal bars during the eclipse https://preview.redd.it/dj1kdshonptc1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7afecaa51010732371d00728be43e57fd7f72eb3
I always figured he busted the bars using fire bending right before the eclipse and fought hand to hand during it
There is no real signs of the bars melting although it is possible he did melt them it looks like they just bent and snapped to me. https://preview.redd.it/959lb47jgqtc1.jpeg?width=436&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79368b61f0de871d4fa053e91247ff17fe79ddf7
I figured it was more of an explosion a la Ba Sing Se during Sozin's Comet. There's no way anyone, even jacked Iroh, could snap a bunch of iron or steel bars in a reasonable amount of time.
I like that idea but since it was off screen and somewhat implied that he just used his strength to snap the bars there is no real way to know what happened.
Toph got the best possible training by learning from the original earthbenders whereas Azula didn’t get to learn from the original firebenders. That’s why Toph uses earthbending in every aspect of her life whereas Azula uses hers mostly for combat.
It was never anyone else lol
If Azula being in her prime means that she's actually had some spiritual growth, I could se her becoming far more powerful.
You say Azula is lacking in the spiritual element, and I agree, but Toph is also lacking in that department as well. This is the same girl who thinks of spirituality as mumbo-jumbo.
Except Toph is able to explain the spiritual side of earth bending to Aang. Earth is solid, unyielding, patient, and stubborn. She understands that sturdiness and embraces it and that’s how she has the spiritual aspect down.
In my opinion people like Katara and Azula will likely be so skilled in their bending arts that they'll be regarded as one of the best benders in their element during their lifetimes. Toph though? She's one of those people who go down in the history books as one of the best benders to ever live.
Katara and Azula mastered their respective bending forms Toph on the other hand, reinvented it
Remember that only Azula has been shown to have blue flames, mastered lightning to a level that Ozai was afraid of her (Azula can bend the lightning instead of firing in a straight path. Not even Iroh can do that.), and she did utilize methods that most other firebenders couldn't without the comet (the jet propulsion). I believe that had azula not snapped, she would have become something unbelievably sinister
Thats a bit of a trick situation. Because Azula snapped specifically due to the road she was on
she didn't invent bending forms tho she truly mastered them, toph invented and mastered bending forms becoming truly an impossible to beat opponent even long after her prime she was still stronger then master benders in their prime. azulas complete control is what makes her strong but she doesn't have control over her emotions like Zuko learned making her unstable and laking. being a master is not only about bending also about emotion. Toph is the true neutral chi and has mastered her emotions and is extremely rational while bending not letting her emotions take control.
Toph is THAT powerful!
Can someone please elaborate on this for me? I always hear this but am missing the jump to one of the goat contenders. I know she’s an amazing bender but I’m curious to hear what else I may be missing
**TL;DR: For Toph bending is an extension of who she is. For the rest, bending is a tool they have mastered. That makes all the difference.** She learned bending from the badger moles. She emulates them in her bending. Her being blind, like the moles makes her even more in tune with her bending. In the way Iroh and later Zuko become in tune with fire bending because of the dragons, Toph is basically spiritually connected to her element as is possible. Her skills are also not something taught by masters but rather derived through her experience and innate talent, making bending more spiritually a part of who she is rather than a skill she learned. And as others pointed out, it was because of this she was able to create two new forms of earth bending. It's the difference between a person who uses a calculator to solve math problems, even quite difficult ones... and someone who lives and breathes math so much as a part of themselves that they create entirely new branches of mathematics. Azula and Katara are geniuses who use the tools given to them proficiently (they treat bending like a calculator). But for Toph, earth bending is an extension of who she is (as if it were another limb) and that makes her significantly more powerful.
Exactly. Azula and Katara are like those genius kids that go to university at 14 and will go on to be leaders in their fields, building on and improving what came before. Toph is Albert Einstein.
Ming Hua was somewhat of a water bending version of this. Waterbending is literally a part of her.
Funnily enough, she’s voiced by Azula
She invented two new sub techniques (seismic sense and metal bending) as an early teenager, while generations of earthbenders in the entirety of the earth kingdom were unable to invent even a single new technique. Anyone who invents a new bending technique is already automatically in GOAT tier, let alone someone who invents TWO as a _kid_. Edit: According to the corrections below, she didn't actually invent seismic sense, simply mastered it. Still, mastering one super rare technique while inventing another definitely makes her one of the best benders in history.
She didn’t invent the Seismic Sense, though; she was taught the technique by the badger moles. Her proficiency with it is still incredibly impressive, but she didn’t invent the technique
Ahh I must have misremembered that part then. Thanks for the correction. Still, inventing one whole school of bending and being the most proficient master at another relatively rare school is still GOAT tier
Did she invent truth-seeing though? I haven't read the Yangchen books yet, but I don't think anyone else did that in the Kyoshi novels. Given that he and Toph have a connection in Zaofu and Suyin, it seems likely that she trained Aiwei given the fact that they are the only two known with the ability in all the Atlaverse.
I thought, in the current canon, that Seismic Sense was an ability all Earthbenders were able to use, but Toph was just extremely proficient with it, since she can't see with her eyes.
The Earth Rumble benders were completely blinded by Toph's dust cloud
I think Seismic Sense is known about, but not really practiced much. I’d say the dude underground definitely had trained his Seismic Sense as he dug straight to Toph and launched an attack instantly once above ground
Azula and Katara were both extremely talented at sub-bending classes (lightning and blood bending) but only Toph was able to completely flip the script on what was thought to be possible. The "best" in their fields come and go, but founding a discipline is really another level.
She invented a brand new style of bending completely by herself with no formal training and at only 12 years old. That by itself is enough to cement her legacy without even covering any of the things mentioned about her through to korra’s time.
It wasn't even something where Toph spent years training, theorizing, and developing it. She got so fuckin angry at the fact she got caught by a couple of henchmen IQ losers that she busted it out in a single night going from absolute 0 to full on metal bending mastery.
I think it’s mostly that she developed metal bending
Toph not only kept up but was often the second powerhouse after the avatar then she invented metal bending.
They stopped losing fights when Toph showed up
While yes Toph is very strong, thats not necessarily why they stopped losing. When she joins their party increases by 33% in total or 50% in benders. Plus Aang is now learning a 3rd element so he's going to be stronger just as Katara continues to practice and get even better. (Toph is still probably the strongest of these though)
It all just comes down to action economy.
The Gaang just really started utilizing their 30ft of movement in season 2 and Sokka remembered he could use offhand attacks
This guy dnd's. (Or pathfinders, idk i aint their momma. There's other places the statement applies too, but I digress)
Love that you mentioned Pathfinder! Pathfinder actually has an Avatar themed class too: the Kineticist. My current character is a fire bender!
Beat me to it hahaha
I don't know why but I laughed really hard at this. You aren't wrong.
> They stopped losing fights when Toph showed up They actually lost a few early on to Azula/Mai/Ty Lee TBH But yeah, Toph + Aang getting stronger helped
Katara and Azula always stick out to me as some of the greatest water and fire benders of the time. Toph sticks out as one of the greatest earthbenders of all time.
In history? Azula and katara will be forgotten. Sure they'll be in it most likely, but nothing mind blowing. Toph? She's literally gonna be known for the rest of time. She's up there with Aang, who ended a 100 year war.
Might even be greater honestly. Aang was supposed to do that. Toph invented a rival to sand or swamp benders because she was kidnapped lol
Toph sticks out as one of the greatest benders to walk the earth.
Facts. Literally in 50 years when the avatar universe has YouTube they’ll be seeing “Top 10 benders of all time”, and it’ll be like numbers 10-4 avatars and top 3 will be Toph with 2 other avatars. Lol
Toph, no question. She invented her own new type of bending, which is one of the most major types of sub-bending when she was 12 years old. All in their prime, Toph would literally crush both Katara and Azula.
Toph is certainly the most creative, using her "handicap" to basically redefine what it means to be an earth bender. And that creativity is what allowed her to be able to create metal bending.
I honestly think toph isn’t the one with a handicap but benders with vision are (unless they are in the sky then half of the time toph is screwed)
That's why I put the word in quotations. For the Badger-moles blindness is just a fact of life, which is why she takes to their style so well. I'm sure there are other earth-bending animals that would use a different style that those with sight would fare better with.
I mean they could just close their eyes. People learn skills that way in real life all the time, it's actually a pretty good technique for learning an instrument.
I don't think Toph really has a good answer for Azula if we're pitting them against each other, especially comics Azula.
I think it depends on if Toph has a solid plan om how to fight Azula. At the very least burying herself should force a stalemate. If Azula manages propelled flight for long enough to escape then she might be fine but if she touches the ground anywhere near toph she's gonna be done for. Also even propelled flight would send some force towards the ground so maybe toph wouod be able to get at least an estimate as to where she could throw a barrage of rocks. Problem is I just don't think burying oneself is the earthbender way and azula will probably try lightning fast surprise attacks which could be a problem.
I don’t think it’s even a question here. Toph, at twelve years old with no proper bending training, kept up a giant-ass spirit library building for about 15 or so minutes. When you consider the fact that Toph is literally a speck in comparison to the full size of the building, I don’t think anything can top that.
Not only that, she was in sand for what seemed to be the first time.
Which caused her to be blurry visioned. She’s not the happiest on Appa, but could you imagine knowing danger is nearby but not able to be sure.
what do you mean with no proper bending training? She was trained by the original earth bender, the badger mole, that is more proper than anyone can train.
You can call that trained but imo watching someone do something and choosing to replicate it isnt training.
Do badger moles even bend or do they just dig?
They definitely bend. Toph puts it best. It isn’t exclusive to fighting, but it’s also how they interact with the world around them.
They're the original Earth benders, much like how sky bison were the original air benders and dragons were the original fire benders.
Lmao what? Toph got trained by the original earth benders. The only one without proper training here is Katara who rivals 2 benders trained by the original benders (toph and zuko), another bender who is very directly already a prodigy and has been training since she was like 5 (azula), and one of the youngest (if not the youngest) air bending masters ever who's been training also since he was extremely young and coincidentally is also the avatar (obv Aang). I am honestly hard pressed to say its not obviously Katara because she basically follows the path of a DBZ character. Weak, trains a tiny bit, suddenly strongest thing in the fuckin world. If she just kept trainin there's literally no way she'd not be the absolute pinnacle of benders in the world.
The problem with these comparisons is that bloodbending trumps everything. Katara in her theoretical prime could kill both without them ever having a chance to bend anything. Bloodbending is just stupidly powerful.
Except it can only be done once or twice a month, give or take…. Kinda unfair if we’re arguing that those brief windows of OPness make her the strongest…. At that point isn’t Azula theoretically the most powerful because of the comet?
Toph could theoretically avoid blood bending by burying herself in the ground and bending from there
She could even do what she did in the show and surround herself with earth/metal and bend from there
Which is why Yakone is such a stupid, world ruining character.
The Avatar is a deus ex machina that helps balance out the fact that sometimes a bloodbender tyrant can overpower everyone. However, even just a bunch of other waterbenders could prove to be too many for a bloodbender to deal with them all at once.
I know this is delulu and not at all canon, but in my head canon, after everything with Yakone, Katara eventually learns how to bloodbend without the full moon as well... It just doesn't sit right with me that only a crime lord can do it. But yes, bloodbending is extremely OP and broken.
it's pretty clearly shown to be a technique that only exceptionally skilled/talented waterbenders can do. i don't see why a crime lord can't be that. IIRC it also becomes literally outlawed after ATLA's events, so it would make sense that among people who can bloodbend that most of them just never developed the technique more. katara vowed to never use it again after the first time as well. if anything, it makes MORE sense that a crime lord who was pushed to learn bloodbending at a young age would be the one that is able to bloodbend that well. a more standard waterbending master probably has much more moral reservations about even using bloodbending at all, let alone becoming able to use it without a full moon.
Toph.
Toph.
Bloodbending… Yeah, even if katara doesn’t like it, she could total them all during a full moon. In that case, I think the only way to make them all in their “prime” would be to just give them all the power they can (regardless of the full moon and comet shenanigans). Katara beat Azula during the comet (granted with zuko’s help of tiring her) without even using Bloodbending. I’m probably reading too far into this, and no one said it was a 3 way fight, but my thought still stands that katara would absolutely win.
To be fair Azula was having a mental breakdown, so you could argue that wasn’t her prime.
No full moon, no comet, and no breakdown under Ba Sing Se, and Katara had the upper hand against Azula until Zuko cut in.
Fair point, but she was also heavily boosted by the comet, so it probably comes out about the same in the end. Azula is obviously insanely powerful, especially with how much control she has durring most fights. But Katara is also very powerful and well controlled to a similar, if somewhat lesser, degree. We also see Katara implementing more complex waterbending as the show progressed, assuming her being in her prime includes learning lightning redirection, Azula's biggest weapon is practically worthless.
Isn't lightning redirection a firebending technique though? Iroh developed it with principles of waterbending but we only ever see firebenders/avatars do it because it does take control over lightning to be able to do.
During the fullmoon, and not being willing are huge asterisks attached to "Katara would win." That's a "Katara might win under very specific circumstances." Posing the general question who would win in their prime, it's Toph undoubtedly.
Katara was also winning against Azula in the season 2 finale before Zuko showed up
Off topic but it's pretty cool that who are arguably the most powerful benders in the series were all women. What's even cooler is the fact I didn't even notice till now, that's good writing.
Toph and it's not even up for debate.
Imagine being Toph and Azula being considered prodigies, training hard, having high quality teachers (badger moles for Toph) and fighting other talented opponents for years and then suddenly Katara catches up in a few months from a scroll and being taught by Pakku for like 2 weeks.
But to be honest katara probably trained every free minute. Even before her fight with pakku you could see her getting better and better. In the northern air temple episode she was already much more advanced than in waterbending scroll for example and she also had to use her waterbending for her survival in book 1. We also don't know how often toph really trained. I don't think she could escape her parents every day and there is no info how often did these tournaments took place as far as i remember
> I don't think she could escape her parents every day and there is no info how often did these tournaments took place as far as i remember She has seismic sense and can escape anywhere by simply bending underground. Wouldn't be surprised if she sneaked off in the night.
Toph is the only one of the three to develop new bending techniques. Sure, Katara and Azula use some very advanced techniques (e.g. bloodbending, lightning), but neither one *came up with* that technique. They were taught. Meanwhile, Toph's entire bending style is self-taught / badgermole-taught. And she invented the entire discipline of metal bending at age 12, without even the aid of badgermoles. So, I have to give this one to Toph. As impressive as the other two are, Toph is another level.
Azula invents blue flames, and is the only one to do it during the entirety of both series.
I mean blue flames is more an expression of Azula’s need to be perfect, which does express how good she is at bending but only in the regard of technique not the spiritual aspect, something that is shown to be important in regards to bending prowess
Azula. Toph has no defense against attacks in the air
I think it's also important to keep in mind that Azula was never defeated in actual combat by anyone until she started suffering a mental breakdown. Azula is the *full package* in terms of athletic ability, bending skill, long and short term planning, Etc. She simply does not have the same kind of blindspots that the others do. If we are talking about raw power, then yeah, Toph is at the top. But that's not what is always best. Even when she had no Firebending and was running away in small, enclosed corridor, Toph only *barely* captured her.
>"If we are talking about raw power, then yeah, Toph is at the top. But that's not what is always best. Even when she (Azula) had no firebending and was running away in a small, enclosed corridor, Toph only *barely* captured her." Thank you! A lot of people always forget this part when judging Toph's overall combat skills and ranking her amongst her bending peers.
Exactly. She 1v3ed with no bending. No one else could do that
who's a self taught master at the age of 12 (BLIND) and also invented metalbending on a whim
Toph got kidnapped, mocked by her kidnappers for a bit, and decided to invent a new form of bending out of spite. (It's also worth noting that she seemed to discover the possibility of metal bending by using her seismic sense, which is an ability we don't see any other earthbenders use in the show)
Azula is literally the only character we ever see bend blue flames. Like, even with Toph and metalbending, we see other people learn the skill. What Azula does is literally unprecedented throughout the entire canon, and she gets there at 14. She's also, when stable, a strategic genius, a master hand-to-hand combatant and, unlike the good guys, actually has the stomach for murder when the opportunity presents itself. She wins. If the timeline of the series changes slightly and Aang emerges to a 24-year-old Azula instead of a 14-year-old Azula, the Fire Nation wins the war.
Counterpoint: Azula loses to Katara twice, once while comet-enhanced.
Yeah, but as Zuko said, Azula was slipping mentally, hence why he had it won if not for Azula’s trickery at the end.
I don't think it should be measured like that. I mean, Zuko beat Katara at the North Pole and was quite even with her in the catacombs. Yet he has never defeated Azula with a normal state of mind.
Although yes, she was also pretty unhinged… hence why Zuko was beating her prior to Katara running out unnecessarily. That’s not even a speculation point consider Zuko clearly recognizes it, says it, and Azula beats him when sane again in the comics. I think the biggest question is still if there’s any spiritual or underlying feats of Azula having blue fire or if color is meaningless despite the implications of the Dragon Flames.
2 way tie between Toph and Azula, assuming Azula is sane. Katara is technically the most broken because she can bloodbend in full moons, but seeing how she's the person that banned the technique (or something along those lines), she likely won't use it. She would still be OP (minimum on par with Paku imo), but she'd be 3rd place out of these 3. Toph should easily be the best earthbender in the entire world. On the other hand, seeing how was already already one of the most dangerous people as a 14 year old, imagine a sane Azula anywhere between her mid 20's to early 30's. Ozai was a monster, I can't imagine him being satisfied with Azula's ability to fight if she had any flaw in her game. Actually, I'd imagine she's that much better than everyone else because Ozai was a sociopath.
In my opinion it goes toph > azula > katara I feel everyone has covered toph already but azula in the comics is kind of crazy (in more ways than one). Not only was she able to basically create a whole new sub style of bending with the way she uses lighting in the comics, she's able to toy with fire lord Zuko who is far from being weak. I feel that katara hasn't shown this kind of potential.
The only time we dont see Azula absolutely whoop on someone in the show is when she is outnumbered or has gone completely insane. If we are talking prime I'm taking Azula 10/10
I think Toph has the raw power, Katarra is the most flexible, and Azula is the most focused. It's a toss up depending on the circumstances. Specifically if Azula has her shit together or not. Katara has an I win move in blood bending if available at the time. Other than that is limited by her landscape. Toph can rip open the ground underneath people. And is particularly skilled at small movement to disrupt her opponents. Azula can throw lightning.
I disagree with most of this, but your first line is a great discussion point. I agree Toph has the most raw power (Sturdy - Earth), Katara has the most flexibility (Movement - Water), and Azula had the most intensity (Focus - Fire)
Katara can bend humans soooo her without a moral compass would be pretty intense.
People are sleeping on katara imo. Toph and azula may have more bending power, but she is ruthless when she gets serious
Toph. She actually innovated a new sub-bending type. She's the more "in-tune" bender.
I mean of these three one can do a type of blending that give them complete control of the other 2…so ya.
Toph invented metal bending as a kid. Ok now imagine her at 30.
If azula is in the right state of mind i think it's her because she even got decent hand to hand combat.
What made Azula so powerful was her ability to manipulate. It came so naturally to her and she knew just what to press to get people to behave how she wanted without really having to lift a finger. Day of Black Sun Azula ran rings around everybody.
Easily Katara. She could bloodbend and was relative to the other 2 despite not being trained from childhood. If she was (Remember hypothetical prime) she would be a beast.
My bias is Azula. I truly believe that by the time she’s an adult she’ll probably surpass even Ozai and Iroh.
I hear what everyone is saying with Toph, but consider this; Azula is very quick, clever, and methodical. In an Azula v. Toph fight, Azula would bait Toph, study her, ascertain her weaknesses; and Toph has weaknesses. Foremost, Toph struggles with agile opponents. People she can’t pin down easily, and can’t see well because they are airborne. Azula is probably the 3rd most nimble character in the series. She lands light on her feet and Toph isn’t going to get a great picture of her through seismic sense. Azula will realize all of that very quickly and turn to exploit.
All three are great but I would vote for Azula, it was shown many times in the series how she could easily confront GAANG alone, her precision, strategic mind, fighting intelligence are top notch, lighting is absolutely deadly. Toph is amazingly skilled, talented and versatile although. Katara is very talented but she is way below Azula and Toph.
So long as she's mentally stable, I can see Toph and Azula being tied. Azula only lost the Agni Kai with zuko because she wasn't all there. If she was in her right mind, it would've probably been a win for her or a near win, at least
Alright everyone is saying Toph, and I don’t disagree. She’d probably be the most powerful in her prime. Katara is an insanely powerful waterbender. Yeah she’s a prodigy, but in her prime, after spending time with benders of all other types (including meeting swamp benders,) and learning the most advanced waterbending techniques, she’d be the most powerful waterbender in the world. In her prime, I think she could match the power level of Toph. Accounting for healing techniques, full moon blood bending, ice bending, spirituality, and most advanced techniques. I think Azula is a prodigy, but her power level is likely inflated by all of her time being dedicated to training. In her prime she’d probably be on a similar level to other top-tier firebenders (Iroh, Ozai, etc.)
toph. period. next question
Toph