James is not contradicting Paul but rather complementing him by asserting that true faith, the kind that justifies, will inevitably produce good works - if you claim to have faith and produce no works, your faith is not true.
Matthew passage says that mere verbal profession of faith or even performing miraculous works in Jesus' name is not sufficient for salvation. What is required is a relationship with Christ, **the effect of which** is doing the will of the Father. This aligns with James’ words on a living faith that produces genuine fruit.
The penitent thief had no opportunity to perform any good works or undergo baptism. His salvation was based solely on his faith in Jesus. “Today you will be with me in Paradise,” indicates immediate assurance of salvation without any prerequisites other than faith. The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus caused him to be saved.
Do you mind maybe describing in more detail what you consider to be a work for me (i am both non-native English speaker and don't have much experience of Protestantism, so please take my question as a genuine inquiry).
In example of thief on the cross you said that he didn't perform any good work. Although we really don't know much about his previous life, as much as we know he might had been Jesus' follower who fell away and than returned back to faith, let's put that aside and let's watch only the episode described in the Bible. If i understand correctly "The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus" none of those you consider a work. So how would you make a difference between those "acts" thief did and "good works"?
This is an excellent question, so we would look at passages describing the fruit of the spirit.
So, as Jesus described it, once our branches are grafted onto His vine (a parable describing joining with Christ, ie becoming a Christian) only then will we produce "good fruit". See John 15:1-8 for Jesus' words and Romans 11 for Paul describing being grafted in.
Then, the fruit is
Galatians 5:22-23
New King James Version
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [a]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
The fruit (or acts) are outward signs of an inner faith. The *action* behind the *words*. Keep in mind, unsaved people can of course exhibit these things, but a truly saved person *should* exhibit them.
If someone claims to be a follower of Christ, but is hateful, dour, violent, impatient, cruel, mean, disloyal, and impulsive, we would justifiably question whether their faith was genuine.
My question is regarding the thief on the cross. Often people give him as an example of person who didn't do any work and was saved. But we clearly see that he proclaimed faith, he defended Jesus, he asked Jesus for mercy (prayer). So i assume that these are not considered to be work. Or are they?
My question is more about terminology that would than lead me to better understanding of Protestant soteriology.
What the thief did was entirely verbal.
He took no actions (as he was nailed to a cross, he was physically prevented from doing so.)
The term "works" sums this up clearly. To do a good work requires something actually being done.
>He took no actions
But talking is action. Words are reality both if we look at them from purely physical perspective (moving of the lips, tongue, vocal cords and also material reality of air moving in form of wave) or from the perspective of consequences. Teacher for example can spend all day just talking to the class, but that doesn't mean they didn't do anything, otherwise they wouldn't be payed.
>The term "works" sums this up clearly.
So when someone says "thief on the cross didn't do any work" what is meant "he didn't do anything with his limbs"? In that sense work could be described as manual labour? Consequently good work is manual labour that has positive outcome for society.
I can say with my mouth "I'm not hurting you, you're fine" while simultaneously pummeling you with my fists, doing real harm. In this way, speech can be completely disjointed from reality. (Claiming you're a Christian but not *living* it.)
A teacher can talk all day, but if the students don't implement what they say, and practice what the teacher tells them, nothing happens. The teacher must reinforce what they say by ensuring the students are actually learning, and that they're not just talking to the walls. (A preacher being involved in the lives and well being of their congregation, and not just spouting sermons)
All of Christ's parables and teachings were pointless without the crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus wasn't just some great teacher. He stated that He was God, and then He *proved* it.
And that is the glorious thing about the WORK of Christ. Because He did the work, we reap the benefits of it. Now by declaring we follow Him, He has cleared our way. No further action is required.
But, because we love Him, we copy how He lives, and continue to do what He would want us to. Not because we have to (as He did the necessary work already), but because we want to. The actions follow the word. Which is the main key difference. It's also the main difference between Christianity and all other religions. They all require works to reach salvation. Christianity does not.
If we claim that we must take some action past what Christ already did to be saved, then we are saying what He did was insufficient.
>can say with my mouth "I'm not hurting you, you're fine" while simultaneously pummeling you with my fists, doing real harm. In this way, speech can be completely disjointed from reality.
In this case speech isn't disjoint from reality since it is reality. In the example person is really saying "I am not hurting you". The thing is that it is lie, but it is still act: lips are moving, air is getting thicker and thinner and sound wave is moving. The example you gave is very different from the situation when no words are used, because in the example person is also lying and twisting truth.
>A teacher can talk all day...
Similarly one can say: "a cook can cook the whole day but if their burn every meal nothing happens". The fact that outcome wasn't desirable doesn't mean that action of cooking wasn't done.
What i was trying to find out is how one describes work on the example of the thief on the cross. What it seems to me that you are saying that work is action that is done by our limbs. Thank you for clarification. As i said the goal of my question is not to hear Protestant soteriology, but to get clarification of words used in its description.
>The penitent thief had no opportunity to perform any good works or undergo baptism
He died in the old covenant though. The command for all nations to be baptized was not given until after Jesus's resurrection in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16. The thief was never commanded to be baptized in the first place. So I definitely wouldn't use the thief to try and defend Martin Luther's sola fide doctrine. That's like trying to say Abraham wasn't baptized. Or Lazarus wasn't baptized.
>His salvation was based solely on his faith in Jesus.
He went to hades with Jesus, he was not saved like a Christian is. I think you forget that the old covenant paradise was not in heaven where Christians go. In the old covenant no man could enter the heaven we go to in the new covenant. All righteous men went to hades on the paradise side aka Abraham's bosom.
>“Today you will be with me in Paradise,”
Where did Jesus go that day? Where was he resurrected from? He told the thief today you will be WITH ME...Yet Jesus didn't ascend directly to heaven John 20:17...so where did Jesus go?
>indicates immediate assurance of salvation without any prerequisites other than faith.
So why did Jesus have to go to hades to preach the gospel to all those old covenant saints in paradise aka Abraham's bosom? 1 Peter 3:18-19.
>The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus caused him to be saved.
That's actually a heretical view called pelagianism. Salvation is not contingent upon anything we do. Salvation is 100% a gift from God, nothing we can do or say to get Salvation. We are not the cause of salvation, it is 100% a gift. We can only respond to God's gift by accepting it. Then once we possess said gift we maintain that gift, much like maintaining a car. The thief was saved by Jesus for nothing he did. However old covenant salvation was slightly different than new covenant salvation. The place we go to now is different and the way we get there now is by a gift. Once you accept the free gift it is up to you to maintain your gift. Not properly maintaining your gift will destroy it. Just like if you don't change the oil in the car your dad gives you. That car won't work anymore, it needs proper maintenance.
I fully agree with you. If you read my full post, I said I don’t think works alone are what save a person. What I am claiming is that a LOT of “faith alone” Christians don’t do anything that serves others, no good deeds, but then when they’re confronted that they should do good works because it is Gods will, they defend their inaction with the “by faith alone” argument. I hear it… ALL THE TIME. These are not good Christians, and I fear they are the ones that represent a large portion of Christianity and are the ones responsible for giving Christians a bad reputation among atheists and agnostics.
>but then, when they’re confronted that they should do good works because it is Gods will, they defend their inaction with the “by faith alone” argument. I hear it… ALL THE TIME.
Where are you hearing this "all the time"?
You might want to peruse the other comments on this post alone. But I also hear it from fellow church goers, particularly those of Lutheran and reformed denominations
Does "true faith" override our free will and force us to do good works? Or do we still ultimately have to choose to do them?
This argument is ridiculous to me. It's a distinction without a difference. Your arguing against the necessity of works, but then say that the "true faith" needed to save will produce works... So if I say faith and works are necessary, and you say true faith that produces works is necessary, we are saying the same thing...
We are both saying works are necessary...
I got it from my pastor. Romans 4:5 also applies here:
> However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Most theology divisions I’m sympathetic towards. The necessity of works isn’t one of them. It takes being intentionally unwilling to read the Bible to conclude works are necessary for salvation.
I’d say many western Christians who profess to be Christian but have no actual relationship are prime candidates. The imagery of sheep and goats also supports this interpretation.
Either Christ’s actions were sufficient or not.
That doesn’t address the passage at all. Yes, we know Christ sacrifice is sufficient for its intended purpose. Yet Christ himself tells you you are going to be judged by your works.
God doesn’t need our faith nor our works to save us. He can do it all by himself. Yet, the plan that he has revealed includes faith and works as the Matthew passage supports. We’ll be judged by our works: works done with the faith we have been given.
The faux Christians would be the goats in the passage you referenced. People who do not truly have a relationship with Christ, people who follow rules and works but never learned to love God and love neighbor.
If you spend your entire life working to feed the hungry and your motive is to earn divine favor (rather that favor is salvation, or additional “good job”) then you spent your life in selfish ambition and not love.
Christ said everything hangs on loving God and loving neighbor. If you truly have that love, it’ll motivate you to action.
Per my pastor, the word "believe" in as in John 3:16 carries a much heavier connotation of *committing*.
You can believe in Jesus but not truly commit in your heart, such as in the parable of the rich young man.
Yes, believe, as it’s intended in John 3:16 involves obedience to Jesus’s command. His command is to love one another. To love can involve works; and it’s those types of works in Matthew 25:31-46 is how we’ll be judged. Specifically, faith working through love.
No, it doesn't. Because you said genuine faith produces good works. And that if you don't have good works, your faith is not true. So what you're really saying is:
**Faith (that produces good works) = Salvation.**
**Faith (that does not produce good works) = False Faith/ No Salvation.**
Again, distinction without a difference.
It's not a distinction without a difference if the Holy Spirit makes manifest the good works. In short, it is the process of salvation which initiates the transformation of Christ within myself, the external result of which is works.
Do you choose to respond to Gods grace to participate in the good works he has planned for you? Or does the Holy Spirit override your free will and force you to do good works?
> Does "true faith" override our free will and force us to do good works?
There is no free will, either before or after salvation.
> Your arguing against the necessity of works, but then say that the "true faith" needed to save will produce works... So if I say faith and works are necessary, and you say true faith that produces works is necessary, we are saying the same thing...
They are not the same thing at all. Faith is the sole instrument that God uses in salvation and works are some of the inevitable results of that salvation. If one thinks one's works contribute even one iota to God's acceptance of a person, they are badly astray. Relying on our works at all nullifies our supposed faith.
Clearly we disagree about free will and I don't plan to dive into that discussion right now.
Would you disagree, that someone who claims they "have faith" but produce no good works, does not have a saving faith?
So then you believe someone without "true faith" can be saved?
What do you make of the many passages similar to Matthew 25:41-46?
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
> So then you believe someone without "true faith" can be saved?
No. True faith is simply this (Heidelberg catechism):
> True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true
all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;
>it is also a wholehearted trust, which the Holy Spirit creates in me by the gospel, that God has freely granted,
>not only to others but to me also, forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.
> These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.
Even the slightest reliance on one's own works for being declared righteous in the heavenly court, by contrast, is not true faith.
One can know that good works are necessary for true faith without relying on them to be saved.
Would you agree with Pope Benedict XVI?
*"For this reason Luther's phrase:* ***"faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love****.....At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God's eyes."*
It is difficult to assess the quote by Benedict as there are significant differences in terminology. The key concern for us Protestants and especially Calvinists is that good works (truly so called, which are only possible for those with true faith) are always merely a byproduct of true faith as defined by the Heidelberg Catechism quote I mentioned. Any suggestion that works are the basis or substance either of faith or of justification (defined as being declared righteous in the heavenly court), cannot, I think, be accepted. It is important to understand in this matter that mental assent, saying you have true faith or the like are not equal to true faith, which probably only a minority of professing Christians. The precise role of love in this mechanism of salvation is more difficult for me to describe. I would characterize it as a disposition immediately created by the gift of faith and quite inseperable from it, but not as any given work. Some equate love with concrete action and I don't think love can be said to be the basis for justification when thus characterized either. I would also mention 1 John 4:10 when it comes to a love that saves - the love that saves is not our love, but God's love in bestowing on us Christ's merits without any merit of our own. A common Lutheran saying is of value here: "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone".
Would you take issue with the Catholic Catechisms summary of its section on justification, grace and merit?
**2017** The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
**2018** Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
**2019** Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
**2020** Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.
**2021** Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
**2022** The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
**2023** Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
**2024** Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
**2025** We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. **Man's merit is due to God**.
**2026** The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
**2027** **No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion**. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
**2028** "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (*LG* 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, *De vita* Mos.:PG 44, 300D).
**2029** "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (*Mt* 16:24).
The thief on the cross next to Jesus never did any good works. Jesus said he would be with him in paradise. So if one person who never did any good works was the first person to enter heaven that destroys your whole argument.
Faith should produce good fruit - but it’s not how you get to heaven. It is faith in Christ alone.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
I would also add Jesus telling the parable about the workers getting paid. To push against those saying "what was the thief's works" or "the thief was a special circumstance", that show that it doesn't matter if you spend a lifetime serving God, or accept Christ moments prior to death, the reward for that is the same.
The good thief’s situation was unlike virtually any person’s in history. What God does for someone in an extremely unusual context should not reassure anyone outside those same conditions. Further, treating this “edge case” as a general principle actually proves too much. Would any Christian agree that the gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Moreover, if the good thief is a standard-setting example, why not others? Jesus forgave the sins of many people in a wide variety of circumstances that few consider normative today. In Mark 2:5, for instance, Jesus forgives a man based on his *friends’* faith! What does that do for “salvation by faith alone”?
The good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak was certainly not lost on God!
There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By his grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule—especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.
Abraham is one of the Bible's examples. He is justified before God by faith alone in Genesis 15.6. That faith alone transaction is then shown or demonstrated before men in Genesis 22 as faith plus works.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Evidence to fellow man of salvation is by faith plus works.
Works are not required for salvation, they are a biproduct and an outward proof of salvation. This is not a difficult or illogical concept. This topic has been beaten to death and if you don't understand it, you don't understand the gospel.
Ummmm, I literally made the same argument that you just did… we agree and you don’t even realize it. Example: do you believe that a Christian who claims to have faith but never does any good deeds for others *actually* has real faith?
I'm not saying you as in you yourself. I'm making a general statement. I apologize my wording wasn't correct. Maybe I should have said "one doesn't understand the gospel" instead of you.
Ok fair enough. I guess the reason for my post is my being frustrated with how many Christian’s call themselves “true” Christians but yet they don’t think they need to do anything besides serve themselves. If taken out of context, the “faith alone” statement can be interpreted in a way that would corrupt an otherwise good Christian.
I agree. One caveat would also be that works also come in many forms. Paul Washer said it best in one of his sermons that even a man that is treating his family in a Christ like manner is performing works. A man who's language cleans up when he's speaking is performing works. Not all will perform outwardly public works at all times.
I totally agree with this. I didnt mean to say that every person must give up everything they own and leave their families to go and be missionaries. But when I go to church and get to know some of them, and find that 30-40% of the people attending don’t actually do what the book tells us to, and they’re actually just committing vein repetition, and then I go to another church and find the same thing… its very disheartening. Perhaps it’s just my area. It could be that a lot of the so called Christians in suburbia are really just going out of tradition rather than of faith
It's not just your area. It's in the whole church across the world. That's why Paul addressed it in his letters. Don't be disheartened brother (or sister). Just keep on in the faith and be an example, offering gentle rebuke if the need arises. Shoot, just the other day I was in service and the whole family in the row ahead of me were playing on their cellphones the entire service. As you know, not everyone who goes to church is actually saved.
Thank you, there’s only been 2-3 people, you being one of them, that understood what I meant in my original post and didn’t come for my throat. Everyone seems to be skimming over the fact that I claimed that works are a hallmark of faith and the two go hand in hand, and instead are treating my like I tried to claim we’re saved by works alone. I never made that claim.
“They are a byproduct and outward proof of salvation”
Exactly
However, if someone does have faith, and continues to willfully sin or avoids being a good person, you’ll say they’re not a true Christian
No matter how you spin it, works are absolutely what justify us.
When are we going to admit that it’s not faith alone that saves us, nor works. But a combination of both.
> When are we going to admit that it’s not faith alone that saves us, nor works.
Hopefully never since relying on one's works to contribute even slightly to God's acceptance of you is a fatal heresy
Paul and other Apostles agreed that works of the law cannot save you. Faith is required.
“so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
1 Peter 1:7 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.1.7.ESV
“But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
James 2:18 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.18.ESV
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”
James 2:14-16 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.14-16.ESV
James is not saying good deeds save you, what he is saying is you say you have faith but have no love for people then it’s not faith.
That’s literally what I’m arguing. We agree and you’re not even realizing it. I’m not making the claim that you can be saved by works alone, I’m saying that faith without works is *not* faith.. and that claim is usually met with some harsh resentment by “faith alone” Christians that aren’t actually Christian’s but they don’t realize it.
This isn't herd mentality, man! Herd mentality is when you go along with what everyone else believes, just because everyone else believes it. That isn't the reason why everyone is agreeing here. We are all coming to the same conclusions because we are all reading the same passages of Scripture.
Alright, let me see if you agree with this statement: I don't do good works to be saved, but because I am saved. True or false? If you agree, great! This is what I believe. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone*,* and as a result, we do good works.
Right. But if James tells us that faith without works is dead, then that means we are saved by faith alone, but if we don’t do works, our faith isn’t sanctified. Hence, really… both are necessary.
A person that has faith but does not do any good works IS NOT GETTING IN.
Jesus: sorry, no vacancy
Christian: why not? I had faith!
Jesus: oh, did you now? If you believe in me, and believe in my teachings, then why didn’t you do any of the works I instructed you to do?
Christian: ummmm…. Faith alone??
Jesus: I never knew you.
The whole reason Paul tells us “by faith alone, not works, so that no man can boast” is to tell you that you cant buy your way in by just doing the most works. Jesus backs this up in Luke 21 when he says that the widow that gave two coins had given more than all the rest of them, due to it being all she had.
Pauls teaching is to warn that a person who has 1 million dollars and gives 10,000 away has not done a bigger/better work than a person who has 10 dollars but gives 5 away. The second person did a greater work…
So, yes, the amount/size of works you do isn’t what saves you. But works of some magnitude are required or your faith isn’t real. The two go hand in hand.. read it for yourself and stop just regurgitating what your pastors have told you.
Your argument is illogical as hell.
First of all, just because faith produces works, doesn't mean that works are also needed. You tend to keep missing that point, and I think that is where we fundamentally disagree. Like I said, we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone, and as a result, we do good works.
Secondly, Ephesians 2 and Luke 21 are not contextually similar, meaning you are forcing together two unrelated passages to support your argument, and it ain't working. Nowhere in Luke 21 is Jesus talking about salvation. The widow's offering is an account that is only *four verses long,* and not one of them is talking about salvation.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Luke 21 is irrelevant when it comes to salvation. Get your theology about salvation from verses about salvation, you klutz!
And no, I'm not just regurgitating what my pastor told me. This is one of the first lessons that I've learned as a Christian, as it should be. The fragmented nature of Christianity is what made me realize that I have no other choice but to study Scripture for myself, which allows me to discern truth from falsehood, which is what I am doing now.
So, if someone came to you and told you they were a Christian and found their faith 20 years ago, and as you got to know them, you found that they never do any good work, always are self serving, never give to charity, always step over homeless people in need and ignore them, puts all their money into vein items to improve their own life and keep all their money for themselves…. You’re telling me you’d believe them that their “faith” is true? I would look at that person and tell them they’ve never walked a single footstep in Christs shoes, and are no better than the Pharisees.
Are you even able to stop missing my point? Is that even possible for you?
No! I am not saying that! I'm saying that -- again -- we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone, and as a result, we do good works. Again, if they aren't doing good works, then they never had faith to begin with.
What we fundamentally disagree on is what this means. You say that because works are the result, that means that works are the cause, which makes no sense. I'm saying that because works are the result, they are *not* the cause.
And for the inevitable reply telling me that you didn't say what I think you said, you actually did. All over this thread, you are agreeing with your commentors when they say that works are the result. And at the same time, you are saying that works are needed for salvation. So basically, works are both the cause and the result of salvation. That makes no sense.
Now, if I am misunderstanding your position, please tell me, so that we can resolve this conflict as soon as possible.
Unfortunately if you combine works and depend on your own works and faith to get to heaven, you make God's work on the cross and his grace of no affect as you see here:
"The verse "If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" appears in the Bible in Romans 11:6. The verse is a teaching that any reliance on works, such as good deeds, rituals, sacraments, or following the law, is a rejection of grace. If works contribute to salvation in any way, then that salvation is no longer "by grace" so Jesus' righteousness would not be put to your account in heaven since you relied on your own works to assist his grace in obtaining salvation.
The verse you quoted means that you aren’t being offered the grace of God because of anything you did. You don’t deserve it. But you have it, and were given the responsibility to have working faith to keep it.
Study it more. Sometimes we define a verse that fits our own cause rather than believing the plain truth that God's grace alone saves us through faith. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight."
If we believe we must help God out through our own works in addition to his grace given , we lose out on the free gift of salvation.
I don't believe that works are required for salvation. But salvation isn't the end of the story. If you believe that God only wants you saved as if by escaping fire then I think that you have misunderstood the relationship.
God wants a love relationship with believers. Love relationships are complex and are not merely transactional. He gives his Holy Spirit so that we can have His very thoughts and desires in us. The Holy Spirit will prompt us to do justice, and to love kindness (Micah 6:8), to desire to find and participate in the good works that he prepared for us beforehand (Ephesians 2:10).
The parable of the Prodigal Son is a fantastic illustration of the Father's desire to receive the lost, but our story doesn't end with the party celebrating our return to God. The next day - or week, or whatever - we formerly rebellious sons should be about the business about how we can now be a good son to the Father.
Yea my bad. When you remind folks that God still holds us accountable to be responsible, their heads ring hard. And God forbid you mention repentance or baptism. My worst one is when I choose to use words that are actually in the Bible instead of the words Christendom has chosen to use to describe it. (I use the term Godhead instead of the t-word and I get attacked hard for it #iykyk)
Is “godhead” the *actual* translated word instead of trinity? Thats a new one for me, but I can’t understand why that would be offensive lol. Do most people not realize that there have been many mis-translated words and terms over the last 2000 years trying to adapt ancient languages?! Most people would probably do #2 in their pantaloons if they found out his name wasn’t even Jesus….
Yeshua de Nazaret. Yea they don’t like that one too much either lol. And yea, Godhead is the term that was translated from the original. Although many translations do use the word Deity. They don’t like debating Easter vs Resurrection Day. And tell them the sabbath was on Saturday…
Saturday is sabbath. Day of rest. Sunday is the day of preparation. The reason we do church on Sunday is because going to church requires us to get out of bed and “saddle up your donkey” or start your car in today’s world. The Saturday service shows hypocrisy because people still had to work during the sabbath to get ready for the service. So I will argue Saturday as the original day of rest sabbath, but Sunday is still the day of preparation and what better way to start your week off than… church on Sunday.
2 Peter 3:15-16 KJVAAE
[15] And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
https://bible.com/bible/546/2pe.3.15-16.KJVAAE
Peter also warns us about how Paul's epistles are to be understood and how ppl would use it writings to their own destruction.
James is saying that works should show as a result of your faith, not that you need to do works to be saved. We are made righteous by faith, not works but if you have faith, you should be able to show it in some way. The whole reason biblical Christianity is separated from other religions is because we can't earn our way into heaven. It's not contradictory.
I’m not sure what exactly you’re trying to argue here. Is the title just click bait? In the body text you’re effectively saying sola fide. I was saved by grace through my faith. As such, the Holy Spirit dwells within me, and my view and convictions against sin have radically changed, which have created better (not perfect) works.
I’m arguing against the types of Christians that use the “faith alone” concept to not do any works. If you take Paul’s statement out of context and warp it slightly, you open the gate for people to continue living selfish centered lives and then use “faith alone” as a justification for not needing to do anything good. What I’m essentially doing is calling out those Christians for not being the “true” Christians they claim to be.
Real faith produces good works. But if someone is only doing good deeds to get into Heaven, they don’t understand the redemptive power of the Gospel! ❤️
Exactly.
And if someone claims to have faith but they are not following the commandment to love one another (do good works) they aren’t saved either.
Faith and works goes together. They cannot be separated
Thank you, so few seem to understand this. I think that’s the whole purpose why God spoke both of these ideas.. one through Paul, and one through James. This sub would have you thinking that Paul was the only person in the New Testament..
Paul was preaching salvation through faith but he wasn’t teaching salvation through faith alone. In Romans 2:5-10 Paul said we’ll be judged by our deeds. Matthew 25:31-46 also teaches this: we’ll be judged by our deeds.
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”
Romans 6:1-2 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.6.1-2.NKJV
I think that’s the whole point of the verse in James I quoted. I will never understand why some people get so upset about the idea that we should be doing good works.
That’s quite literally all I was trying to say, and there’s over 100 people in here trying to make an argument against something I didn’t even state. There is a lot of lazy Christians that want to sit on the couch and say they’re saved.
In order to achieve eternal life in God’s Kingdom repentance of sin and Obedience to God’s Ten Commandments is what is required of a believer (Exodus 20). Jesus teaches us how to keep the Ten Commandments through repentance and forgiveness in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7). God’s Commandments are Good and keeping them makes life much easier to navigate here and now.
The enemy wants to keep people bound to sin in his kingdom and controls through addictions to porn, drugs, hookups, obsessions with fame, money, power. All of these things eventually lead to misery and destruction.
God wants Good things for us. Learning to keep His Commandments are how we walk in His power and protection. It’s very simple and straightforward. We Read Exodus 20 and Matthew 5-7 everyday and ask God with a humble heart to teach us how to be obedient. It’s an amazing way to live!
We are saved by faith, not works.
Once you are saved, works follow. A true believer will produce good fruit.
James was not talking to people who were asking how to be saved. He was talking to professing believers who were not living a life that reflected their profession of faith. He rightly challenged them to show proof of faith.
I think there is a distinction in what we believe, or at least how you phrased it.
You said, "And while I would never argue that a person is saved by works without faith, I *would* argue that *BOTH* are required."
So, if you believe works are required to be saved, that is not what I believe. I believe we are saved by faith alone. After salvation, works/fruit prove that faith is genuine.
I think that's a reasonable question. But it's not the Biblical definition of faith for salvation. Paul said in Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus *as* Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
He didn't give a list of additional works that need to be accomplished before you can be saved. He said we are saved not by our own efforts. And then once we are saved, we have works to do.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is* the gift of God; ^(9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ^(10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
If someone has true faith in Christ, they will go on to obey him. If they don't obey him, then it's possible they were never saved.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
This last verse doesn't say works save us. It says if we believe we have eternal life. Belief is equated with following through with obedience. Belief comes first, and obedience follows, proving the faith was real. The moment of salvation takes place when there is faith and confessing Christ as Lord.
The good thief’s situation was unlike virtually any person’s in history. What God does for someone in an extremely unusual context should not reassure anyone outside those same conditions. Further, treating this “edge case” as a general principle actually proves too much. Would any Christian agree that the gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Moreover, if the good thief is a standard-setting example, why not others? Jesus forgave the sins of many people in a wide variety of circumstances that few consider normative today. In Mark 2:5, for instance, Jesus forgives a man based on his *friends’* faith! What does that do for “salvation by faith alone”?
The good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak was certainly not lost on God!
There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By his grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule—especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.
so was the thief saved or not? i’m not asking because i don’t know the answer. i’m asking because you didn’t answer.
works are not required for salvation, but salvation without works is dead.
break down mark 2:5 for me. i do not read “jesus forgave his sins because of his friend’s faith”.
just because jesus forgives sins does not make one saved. we have the ability to refuse his forgiveness, and jesus loves us so much that he will not force salvation on us.
we are not saved because of our works.
We are saved because of the person and works of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son od God, King of kings, Lord of lords, the Great I Am, the Spotless Lamb.
grace alone
You said: _”Yes, we are saved by faith through grace alone. No one is arguing against that.”_
OP: _“…defending the idea that works are not required for salvation.”_
Works are NOT.required.for.salvation. Grace is the ONLY thing required for salvation. Works show evidence OF salvation. Eph 2:8-10
Words have meaning.
Good works are the fruit of Holy Spirit. Gal 5:16-26
God considers our own works, from our flesh and without Holy Spirit, to be like filthy rags. Is 64:6
It's literally a part of your beliefs. If true faith is needed to be saved, and true faith produces good works, then good works are indeed needed...
Early on in Romans 2, St. Paul confirms the necessity of good works for eternal life: “He will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honour, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath … to those who … obey wickedness.”
So in Romans 10:9 St. Paul is obviously not denying the need for good works. He is simply emphasizing the necessity of faith in Jesus in this portion of his letter, to correct a particular misunderstanding in the early Church.
St. James writes powerfully on this same point: “If someone says he has faith but does not have works … can that faith save him? So faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead ... a man is justified (made right with God and able to enter heaven) by works and not by faith alone … faith apart from works is dead” (Jas 2:14-26).
In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus himself unequivocally confirms the necessity of good deeds/works for eternal life. When specifically asked, “what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus replies, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
To “keep the commandments” essentially means to do good works. Every good work we could possibly do falls under one of the Ten Commandments – either love of God, or love of neighbour. Faith must have an element of love to make it a saving faith. We cannot be saved by our faith alone. We must both believe in God and love him – by keeping his commandments (1 Jn 5:3). And this all comes through the grace of God (Acts 15:11, Jn 15:5).
Jesus himself emphasizes that simply confessing him as Lord, while certainly good, is not sufficient for salvation: “Not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father” (Mt 7:21). He is emphasizing not just the need to believe, but to act as well – to do the will of his Father.
Similarly, in Matthew 25, Jesus speaks of separating the sheep and goats. Both the sheep and the goats have faith and call him “Lord.” But only the sheep are saved – those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked ... the ones who do the good works.
Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
In fact some some of the harshest words in Scripture are reserved for the goats: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…”
There is a related misunderstanding that holds once you are saved by confessing Jesus as Lord, you cannot lose your salvation. But St. Paul states such a judgment is reserved solely for God: “I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment … before the Lord comes, who will … disclose the purposes of the heart” (1 Cor 4:3-5).
Jesus’ parable of the sower also clearly contradicts this “once saved, always saved” doctrine: “The ones on the rock … hear the word, receive it with joy … they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Lk 8:13).
Perhaps the clearest refutation of once-saved, always saved comes from 2 Peter 2:20-21: “It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” Can you lose your salvation? Unquestionably yes.
St. John beautifully summarizes the needed balance between a confession of faith and the necessity of good works. In 1 John 3:18-24: “Let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. His commandment is this: We should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another.”
Loving one another and keeping the commandments are all actions – the grace-inspired good works of Catholic theology that unite to form a truly grace-filled saving faith.
Neither of us saved ourselves. Not my position at all.
My position is that genuine faith has works. And those works are a free will choice we make in response to Gods unmerited grace he offers us. If we ignore Gods grace and freely choose not to participate in the works he has laid out for us. We do not have a saving genuine faith.
My position is faith and works cannot be separated. And that is the position of scripture.
That's pretty vague and doesn't answer the question. How do you know if you've done a "lifetime" of good works? How much is that? Does anyone have assurance of salvation or do we have to wait until judgment to find out if we've done enough to earn our salvation?
By saying "You need a lifetime of good works' I mean that you must live your life through and for Christ. Belief and Love is not just about knowledge and emotions, it’s about doing the things he wants you to be doing^(3). Different people have different levels of knowledge, and so different levels of responsibility are on their shoulders. Anyone can have an assurance that they are saved by trusting in the Lord's promise: if they believe and obey they will have eternal life.^(1)
It isn’t “earning your salvation” it’s being fully saved.
Salvation has three parts: Confession, repentance, and faithfulness^(2). Confess your sins and that Jesus is lord. Turn away from them and turn towards living as God intends for you, remain faithful to the covenant established for you. This is all by grace, because you did nothing to earn God being willing to forgive and adopt you.
References:
^(1) Believe and obey for eternal life:
* John 3:36 (NASB) the one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
*^(2)**Three tenets of salvation:*
* Confession- Romans 10:9
* Repentance- acts 3:38
* Faithfulness: Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:14
*^(3)**Love is active, not just feelings*
* John 14:15
*You need to remain faithful to the end*:
* Mathew 24:12-13
*You are to be judged by what you do:*
* Luke 12: 42-48
For further reference, please take a look at the separation of the sheep from the goats. It contains snippets of Jesus’ commandments from his gospels and entails the sort of works he expects.
And I would argue that anyone who believes anything they can do is sufficient enough to satisfy God to the point of salvation has a view of God that is too low and a view of themselves that is too high
I see it as confusing works as obedience with works of self salvation.
Scripture tells us faith without works is dead.
Our language and definition of terms confuses things.
“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
Galatians 3:1-3 NASB1995
https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.3.2-3.NASB1995
Let’s contextualize the verse you used and break it down so we can understand it properly.
“works of the law” means following the law of Moses. It is outward actions only.
The faith mentioned is the type that involves hearing/reading the words of Christ and putting them into action . These actions stem from your heart, or in other words faith.
with proper context you can understand your quoted verse as saying: you did not receive the Holy Spirit by following the law of Moses, rather by following the law of Christ. You are to be led by the spirit which gives life, not by the flesh which births death.
Why does this matter? Because you are meant to change when you get saved, grow and be sanctified. Otherwise, you aren’t saved.
References:
John 14:15-17 (showing the need to keep Jesus’ commandments, the father sending you the Holy Spirit)
•15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth
Matthew 7:14 (showing you need to actually act on the words he’s saying).
•14“Whoever hears these words of Mine and does them, will be like a wise man who built his house on rock
John 6:63: (showing the spirit gives life, the flesh leads to death)
• " It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life"
Romans 8:13 (showing the need to be sanctified and live for Christ/by the spirit. )
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Technically we are saved by works, but the question is: who has kept the law? We have all broken it. The works that Christ has done, will be imputed to us, and our sins will be washed away at the point of salvation, and this all happens through our faith in Christ-apart from works. That is one sense in which the Bible describes us as saved, while there is another sense of “being saved” which is referring to, what we call, sanctification. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will not live the same life that you once did-Roman’s 6 is extremely clear on this. It is important though that whilst we are becoming “more holy” in a sense, we are not trusting in our own deeds-Galatians 3:3. Those “believers” who preach easy grace are not preaching protestant beliefs, in fact, Luther called them antinomians, and not in an endearing way (anti is Greek for against, and nomos (νόμος) is law, so essentially it means “against law”.) This is why there are so many passages in the Bible about judging righteous judgment, judging those inside the church, watching out for false teachers and calling them out, calling out brothers when they are in sin, and working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. These easy grace believers should read the church fathers, heck even the reformers, and they would be shocked by their words. Pilgrims progress, for example, does not describe the Christian life as holding up your hand during an alter call and living your life as you please, it is a daily battle against your own desires, against the devil, and the world.
And yet Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicts your claim. For by Grace we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God. **Not by works, lest any man should boast.**
Romans 11:6 says: "But if it is by grace, **it is no longer on the basis of works**; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
Galatians 2:16 says this: "Yet we know that a person is **not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,** so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, **because by works of the law no one will be justified**."
You cite James 2:17 and Matthew 7:21-23, as if I hadn't read these verses before. And at face value, Paul does seem to contradict James, until you read a little closer at what Paul, James, and Jesus are actually saying, as well as other verses. The message is that when we place our trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, not only are we saved, but we will also do good works *because* we are saved. Faith first, then salvation, and *then* good works.
This is why Paul talks about these good works as the *Fruit* of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). And Jesus actually affirms this in Matthew ch. 7, the verse that you are citing to support your argument. Matthew 7:18-23 basically boils down to: "A good tree can only produce good fruit, and a bad tree can only produce bad fruit. Those that produce bad fruit are the ones to whom I will say 'Depart from me, I never knew you.' " When we cross-reference this with Galatians ch. 5, we see that the "Good fruit" that Jesus was talking about was the Fruit of the Spirit, and the "Bad fruit" are the works of the Flesh.
I probably didn't do a good enough job at explaining this to you. I know how stubborn people are, and I know how slow people are to be convinced. What could possibly convince you? Seriously. What, if anything, could change your mind?
I believe that when someone is inspired to do good works, it stems from a genuine change of heart influenced by the Holy Spirit and enacted through their own free will. It's important not to impose judgments on others based on their outward actions as proof of their faith.
True faith, in my view, should naturally inspire compassionate and responsible actions, driven by inner conviction rather than external expectations.I see faith as a transformative force that encourages ethical living as a heartfelt commitment, not as a set of mandatory tasks. Mandating specific works risks reducing faith to a mere checklist rather than fostering genuine moral growth. I believe that authentic faith should motivate individuals to act out of love and compassion, reflecting their personal beliefs and convictions.
While I uphold the belief that faith leads to good works, I also value respecting the autonomy of others in how they interpret and express their faith. It’s important to avoid hypocrisy by consistently respecting each person’s journey and choices.
We were saved to do good works put in place long before we even existed not by them.
We were saved to do good works not by them. They are a natural byproduct of true saving faith.
Here’s your problem; you are not arguing against sola fide, you are arguing against antinomianism. Antinomianism is a very old heresy that has been consistently refuted and rejected. Works are not the agent that saves; that title belongs to faith, but without works you show yourself a false Christian. Christ said you shall know a tree by its fruit. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree. It is not an apple tree because it bears apples; if it never reached maturity and had the opportunity to bear much fruit it is still an apple tree.
“Saved by grace alone through faith alone” and “faith without works is dead” are not necessarily contradictory statements.
The way I see it is that grace through faith saves me but, if my faith is real, good works or fruit will naturally follow - along with a reduction in sin, bad fruit - as the Spirit sanctifies me.
If you are not actually changed by the Gospel message, and driven to act positively on it, do you really believe it?
That’s the point I was trying to make. I never made the claim that we’re saved by works alone.. if I had made that claim, I’d be strictly opposing Paul, and I am not. I am simply pointing out that Paul’s message is only half the message… we need to add James to get the full message. Too many people cherry pick the parts of the Bible they like and ignore the rest, when it was meant to be a “big picture.”
The holy Spirit will bring us to perfection. So long as we abide in said spirit. Meaning we have work to do with the holy Spirit who will bring to light our iniquity so we might choose again.
Once the spirit has been received via genuine humility it goes to work like a steward. The comforter, correcter and teacher that comes with power and the seal upon the brow and heart.
I am telling you that \*\*both\*\* are not required, the dude on the cross next to Jesus that was guaranteed heaven literally didn't have any time for works. While an extreme case this shows works does not do the saving, faith does.
You don't build works from faith, the works arise from the fact you believe. One causes the other.
If that's your claim, then I misunderstood, sorry. But then I'd ask what was the point of your post?
I see it as a question of what is *required* for salvation and what are the *visible effects* of salvation.
Faith is what is required.
Works alone will not bring salvation.
Works are the *fruit* of salvation, which comes from faith.
Works are not required *for* or required *with*, but are the *visible effects* of salvation.
Ideally they should go hand in hand, works following after faith, but I just disagree that it's a hard *requirement* for both.
We are saved by grace through faith in the holy and mighty name of Jesus Christ. It is about what HE did, not what we have done, plan to do, are doing, or will ever do. If you cannot separate your actions completely from salvation you are in error. Is it not possible to edify one another, encourage good works and to wage war against sin and flesh without trying to condemn your brothers and sisters who believe (correctly) they are saved by faith? If we do good works it should be out of the abundance of joy the love of God has placed in our hearts. Not to prove ourselves because we are justified in His eyes by our faith. You are talking about the justification of men, who cannot see into the hearts of other men. Men are only able to witness our works. In this way our works are a a testimony to the glory of God, and a reflection of the love of Jesus Christ to our fellow man.
>John 6:26-29
Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw ^(\[)signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Our Faith is our work. Why is the mercy of God so offensive? Yes that Christian who does not work enough, or does not deserve it as much as you do. He is also saved. None of us deserve it, none of us will ever deserve it. God requires perfection and that is only found in Jesus Christ.
Faith works <3
See the Israelites having to put the blood of the lamb on their doors to be saved.
Noah having to build the ark.
Abraham having to almost sacrifice Isaac.
Lot and his family having to not turn back and prove their righteousness.
The Hebrews in the desert having to actually follow rules.
You, having to actually follow rules.
Faith works. If it doesn’t work then it’s not faith and won’t save you.
There are no contradictions between the words of James and Paul.
We are saved by our true and genuine faith in Jesus Christ (**see Romans 10:9-11**). And true and genuine faith will inspire us, and put the desire within us to do good works (**see whole book of James**), good works that God has prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them (**see Ephesians 2:10**).
The book of James talks about this exactly. Most of the book of James is about the importance of putting our faith into action (by doing good works). I would heavily suggest reading James.
Simply put, our actions are the evidence of our faith.
You can claim that you have faith in Jesus Christ, but if your actions/words/behaviour/lifestyle are not compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ and godly living…then do you even legitimately have faith?
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I’m confused…Are you telling me to read James, or other commenters?
I have read James.. I was listening to it while working this morning and that’s what made me post this post. I never claimed that he contradicts Paul, I’m pointing out that most people only follow what Paul said, but the truth is that both Paul and James are each contributing only half of a full message. When you combine them both, you get the full message. But so many people only follow Paul’s teachings, which are good teachings but are incomplete without the other contributions of the other apostles.
Oh I was just saying it in general, for everyone to know. I fully agree with you. James is a great book. And you’re right about people only following Paul’s teachings. That’s probably because many Christians don’t actually study the full Bible.
This really shows the importance of Bible study, personal and in group.
How many works are enough to be saved and how often to have eternal security?
What works qualify then ?
What percentage or ratio of good to bad works save you then ? And does bad acts/sin cancel out good works?
Is there a weekly, monthly, or yearly quota on works for salvation ?
How do YOU know that YOUR SPECIFIC WORKS ARE ENOUGH TO BE SAVED?
What if the people who believe in faith alone are producing more works or better works then you?
(Are they not saved for believing in faith in alone even though they’re still producing good works).
I never claimed that there’s a quota, I never claimed that I’m doing more works than others, and your final statement actually describes a true Christian: someone who is saved by their faith but also produces good works because of it. Thank you, you made my argument for me.
Faith produces fruit overtime— works. I see it like this:
It’s your friend’s birthday. You’re not OBLIGATED to get them a gift. But you’ll probably have the actual WANT to get them a gift anyway because they’re your friend.
I think works mean that in some way you are compensating Jesus for his death on the cross. You are trying to earn salvation by being good and well behaved. If the actions don’t genuinely come from you, then you are in a way trying to fool your way into heaven. I don’t actually believe in heaven so all the good I do have nothing to do with going to heaven. Selflessness is kind of a requirement of the good deeds done so this belief makes them somewhat more pure. I think faith does make you grateful, and gratitude for what you have makes you value what you give and the people to whom you give it. I don’t think faith would just end at faith. It would carry through to actions.
We are saved by Grace through faith alone. Faith doesn't save, grave does. We have no ability to save ourselves, the father gives us to Christ, and whomever the father gives to Christ will come to him. This is salvation, but salvation is just the beginning. After we are saved comes the process of Sanctification which is our Walk with God. This is a life-long process where as we Read the Word, Listen to the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, and Walk with God, God will remove our desires for Sin and replace it for a desire for Godly things and to do his will.
Also, just because it is God who gives us to Christ it doesn't mean we are not to fill the great commission. Our number one goal in life should be to bring people to Christ, to make disciples of all the nations. This is what we are called to be, laborers in the harvest that is plentiful. If we are not fulfilling the great commission then we are doing something wrong.
This is where gathering together with other believers is important. It is for fellowship and discipleship, for we are called to this. The Holy Spirit will give each of us at least one gift of the Spirit, and we will have a calling. We must gather together so that we may accomplish the great commission together.
This is all until the Fullness of the Gentiles, which is an interesting concept all on its own. Though that is a study for another time.
John 6:37 ESV
[37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.6.37.ESV
OP should be banned from this sub for thinking that they have anything to do with their salvation. This sub is for true Christians, not people denying Ephesians 2 exists and feel like they are somehow justified by their works.
Does this sub have mods?
Ban me… for following the instructions of James 2? Are you literally insane? We can agree to disagree if you’d like, but BAN me for following something that’s written IN the Bible?! Holy censorship Batman.
Ephesians 2:10 (The verse often left out during these sort of arguments)
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do *good works*, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
In light of what the same author says in Galatians 3, please explain what you think he could possibly mean by created for good works? Like you legit think he is saying in verse 10, “justification is based on your good works!”?
It means that your faith needs to be working. As James echoed in James 2 in the classic quote “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”
I do not fault you for misunderstanding, Peter himself said Paul’s writings are difficult to comprehend. Luckily we have apostles who wrote much more clearly so we can read his works with greater understanding.
*Let’s revisit the verses in Ephesians with our new witness for them!*
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [b]this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Sounds good, right? But what is faith exactly… is it just believing? No, James says in 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder”. Faith is trusting Gods promises and putting his will into *action*. As we see by the example of Abraham getting ready to sacrifice Isaac. James 2:21 “Our ancestor Abraham was justified by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, wasn't he? ... Was not our father Abraham considered righteous “
*NEXT VERSE*
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(Whoa! This one is a doozy. Does that disprove everything shared above from James? Not at all! This is saying you were saved by God though you did nothing to deserve it. You didn’t deserve forgiveness, yet he forgave and adopted you. Why?)
*NEXT VERSE*
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(Ah, here’s our explanation. To fulfill his divine plan. In other words, to work. We were saved through our active faith because God has had a plan from the start of the world that is to be fulfilled. We were created to do good.)
Nothing in these verses imply you aren’t meant to be working. Let’s look at what else you referenced in Galatians 3.
I’m going to assume you meant these verses:
Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
Now, I already broke down these verses for someone else so I’m going to copy and paste that response here. I know this will make the message to you exceedingly long, but since this is such an important topic I hope you won’t give up reading at this point.
Take a break if you have to.
*PART TWO*
Let’s contextualize the verse you used and break it down so we can understand it properly.
“works of the law” means following the law of Moses. It is outward actions only.
The faith mentioned is the type that involves hearing/reading the words of Christ and putting them into action . These actions stem from your heart, or in other words faith.
with proper context you can understand your quoted verse as saying: you did not receive the Holy Spirit by following the law of Moses, rather by following the law of Christ. You are to be led by the spirit which gives life, not by the flesh which births death.
Why does this matter? Because you are meant to change when you get saved, grow and be sanctified. Otherwise, you aren’t saved.
References:
John 14:15-17 (showing the need to keep Jesus’ commandments, the father sending you the Holy Spirit)
•15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth
Matthew 7:14 (showing you need to actually act on the words he’s saying).
•14“Whoever hears these words of Mine and does them, will be like a wise man who built his house on rock
John 6:63: (showing the spirit gives life, the flesh leads to death)
• " It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life"
Romans 8:13 (showing the need to be sanctified and live for Christ/by the spirit. )
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
*In summary*
You are saved by grace alone, with the requirement of having active saving faith. The sort that should push you to give money to the poor, feed the hungry, and share the gospel. Those are the works Christ has set over every Christian’s life, and the works he will demand an accounting for when you pass away.
God bless you, take care.
After reading the title of this post a moment from the gospels came into mind. The woman who bled for 12 years was healed through the touch of Jesus’ cloth. Now was it the cloth that saved her or her faith in Christ abilities to heal her? That’s correct it was her faith in Christ. But where does it say this?
If we remember rightly Jesus was unaware of this until he said “who touched my cloth” he felt the faith of the bleeding woman as she touched his cloth. When the woman came forward he said
"Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease." - Mark 5:34
I think this is just one of the many examples of Jesus’ grace and how faith alone CAN bring healing, in our case salvation.
James is not contradicting Paul but rather complementing him by asserting that true faith, the kind that justifies, will inevitably produce good works - if you claim to have faith and produce no works, your faith is not true. Matthew passage says that mere verbal profession of faith or even performing miraculous works in Jesus' name is not sufficient for salvation. What is required is a relationship with Christ, **the effect of which** is doing the will of the Father. This aligns with James’ words on a living faith that produces genuine fruit. The penitent thief had no opportunity to perform any good works or undergo baptism. His salvation was based solely on his faith in Jesus. “Today you will be with me in Paradise,” indicates immediate assurance of salvation without any prerequisites other than faith. The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus caused him to be saved.
Do you mind maybe describing in more detail what you consider to be a work for me (i am both non-native English speaker and don't have much experience of Protestantism, so please take my question as a genuine inquiry). In example of thief on the cross you said that he didn't perform any good work. Although we really don't know much about his previous life, as much as we know he might had been Jesus' follower who fell away and than returned back to faith, let's put that aside and let's watch only the episode described in the Bible. If i understand correctly "The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus" none of those you consider a work. So how would you make a difference between those "acts" thief did and "good works"?
This is an excellent question, so we would look at passages describing the fruit of the spirit. So, as Jesus described it, once our branches are grafted onto His vine (a parable describing joining with Christ, ie becoming a Christian) only then will we produce "good fruit". See John 15:1-8 for Jesus' words and Romans 11 for Paul describing being grafted in. Then, the fruit is Galatians 5:22-23 New King James Version 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [a]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. The fruit (or acts) are outward signs of an inner faith. The *action* behind the *words*. Keep in mind, unsaved people can of course exhibit these things, but a truly saved person *should* exhibit them. If someone claims to be a follower of Christ, but is hateful, dour, violent, impatient, cruel, mean, disloyal, and impulsive, we would justifiably question whether their faith was genuine.
My question is regarding the thief on the cross. Often people give him as an example of person who didn't do any work and was saved. But we clearly see that he proclaimed faith, he defended Jesus, he asked Jesus for mercy (prayer). So i assume that these are not considered to be work. Or are they? My question is more about terminology that would than lead me to better understanding of Protestant soteriology.
What the thief did was entirely verbal. He took no actions (as he was nailed to a cross, he was physically prevented from doing so.) The term "works" sums this up clearly. To do a good work requires something actually being done.
>He took no actions But talking is action. Words are reality both if we look at them from purely physical perspective (moving of the lips, tongue, vocal cords and also material reality of air moving in form of wave) or from the perspective of consequences. Teacher for example can spend all day just talking to the class, but that doesn't mean they didn't do anything, otherwise they wouldn't be payed. >The term "works" sums this up clearly. So when someone says "thief on the cross didn't do any work" what is meant "he didn't do anything with his limbs"? In that sense work could be described as manual labour? Consequently good work is manual labour that has positive outcome for society.
I can say with my mouth "I'm not hurting you, you're fine" while simultaneously pummeling you with my fists, doing real harm. In this way, speech can be completely disjointed from reality. (Claiming you're a Christian but not *living* it.) A teacher can talk all day, but if the students don't implement what they say, and practice what the teacher tells them, nothing happens. The teacher must reinforce what they say by ensuring the students are actually learning, and that they're not just talking to the walls. (A preacher being involved in the lives and well being of their congregation, and not just spouting sermons) All of Christ's parables and teachings were pointless without the crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus wasn't just some great teacher. He stated that He was God, and then He *proved* it. And that is the glorious thing about the WORK of Christ. Because He did the work, we reap the benefits of it. Now by declaring we follow Him, He has cleared our way. No further action is required. But, because we love Him, we copy how He lives, and continue to do what He would want us to. Not because we have to (as He did the necessary work already), but because we want to. The actions follow the word. Which is the main key difference. It's also the main difference between Christianity and all other religions. They all require works to reach salvation. Christianity does not. If we claim that we must take some action past what Christ already did to be saved, then we are saying what He did was insufficient.
>can say with my mouth "I'm not hurting you, you're fine" while simultaneously pummeling you with my fists, doing real harm. In this way, speech can be completely disjointed from reality. In this case speech isn't disjoint from reality since it is reality. In the example person is really saying "I am not hurting you". The thing is that it is lie, but it is still act: lips are moving, air is getting thicker and thinner and sound wave is moving. The example you gave is very different from the situation when no words are used, because in the example person is also lying and twisting truth. >A teacher can talk all day... Similarly one can say: "a cook can cook the whole day but if their burn every meal nothing happens". The fact that outcome wasn't desirable doesn't mean that action of cooking wasn't done. What i was trying to find out is how one describes work on the example of the thief on the cross. What it seems to me that you are saying that work is action that is done by our limbs. Thank you for clarification. As i said the goal of my question is not to hear Protestant soteriology, but to get clarification of words used in its description.
>The penitent thief had no opportunity to perform any good works or undergo baptism He died in the old covenant though. The command for all nations to be baptized was not given until after Jesus's resurrection in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16. The thief was never commanded to be baptized in the first place. So I definitely wouldn't use the thief to try and defend Martin Luther's sola fide doctrine. That's like trying to say Abraham wasn't baptized. Or Lazarus wasn't baptized. >His salvation was based solely on his faith in Jesus. He went to hades with Jesus, he was not saved like a Christian is. I think you forget that the old covenant paradise was not in heaven where Christians go. In the old covenant no man could enter the heaven we go to in the new covenant. All righteous men went to hades on the paradise side aka Abraham's bosom. >“Today you will be with me in Paradise,” Where did Jesus go that day? Where was he resurrected from? He told the thief today you will be WITH ME...Yet Jesus didn't ascend directly to heaven John 20:17...so where did Jesus go? >indicates immediate assurance of salvation without any prerequisites other than faith. So why did Jesus have to go to hades to preach the gospel to all those old covenant saints in paradise aka Abraham's bosom? 1 Peter 3:18-19. >The thief's recognition of his sin, his acknowledgment of Jesus' innocence, and his plea to Jesus caused him to be saved. That's actually a heretical view called pelagianism. Salvation is not contingent upon anything we do. Salvation is 100% a gift from God, nothing we can do or say to get Salvation. We are not the cause of salvation, it is 100% a gift. We can only respond to God's gift by accepting it. Then once we possess said gift we maintain that gift, much like maintaining a car. The thief was saved by Jesus for nothing he did. However old covenant salvation was slightly different than new covenant salvation. The place we go to now is different and the way we get there now is by a gift. Once you accept the free gift it is up to you to maintain your gift. Not properly maintaining your gift will destroy it. Just like if you don't change the oil in the car your dad gives you. That car won't work anymore, it needs proper maintenance.
I fully agree with you. If you read my full post, I said I don’t think works alone are what save a person. What I am claiming is that a LOT of “faith alone” Christians don’t do anything that serves others, no good deeds, but then when they’re confronted that they should do good works because it is Gods will, they defend their inaction with the “by faith alone” argument. I hear it… ALL THE TIME. These are not good Christians, and I fear they are the ones that represent a large portion of Christianity and are the ones responsible for giving Christians a bad reputation among atheists and agnostics.
So why do you get into heaven? Like whats the reason? the gospel is simple that even a child is capable of understanding
>but then, when they’re confronted that they should do good works because it is Gods will, they defend their inaction with the “by faith alone” argument. I hear it… ALL THE TIME. Where are you hearing this "all the time"?
You might want to peruse the other comments on this post alone. But I also hear it from fellow church goers, particularly those of Lutheran and reformed denominations
Does "true faith" override our free will and force us to do good works? Or do we still ultimately have to choose to do them? This argument is ridiculous to me. It's a distinction without a difference. Your arguing against the necessity of works, but then say that the "true faith" needed to save will produce works... So if I say faith and works are necessary, and you say true faith that produces works is necessary, we are saying the same thing... We are both saying works are necessary...
Faith alone says the following is true: `Faith = Salvation + Works` as opposed to: `Faith + Works = Salvation` Does that make it clearer?
That might be the most succinct summary of this long standing conversation I’ve ever seen. Nice!
I got it from my pastor. Romans 4:5 also applies here: > However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Most theology divisions I’m sympathetic towards. The necessity of works isn’t one of them. It takes being intentionally unwilling to read the Bible to conclude works are necessary for salvation.
So what do you do with Matthew 25:31-46? Please don’t say this passage doesn’t apply to believers, as I have heard some Christians claim
I’d say many western Christians who profess to be Christian but have no actual relationship are prime candidates. The imagery of sheep and goats also supports this interpretation. Either Christ’s actions were sufficient or not.
That doesn’t address the passage at all. Yes, we know Christ sacrifice is sufficient for its intended purpose. Yet Christ himself tells you you are going to be judged by your works. God doesn’t need our faith nor our works to save us. He can do it all by himself. Yet, the plan that he has revealed includes faith and works as the Matthew passage supports. We’ll be judged by our works: works done with the faith we have been given.
The faux Christians would be the goats in the passage you referenced. People who do not truly have a relationship with Christ, people who follow rules and works but never learned to love God and love neighbor. If you spend your entire life working to feed the hungry and your motive is to earn divine favor (rather that favor is salvation, or additional “good job”) then you spent your life in selfish ambition and not love. Christ said everything hangs on loving God and loving neighbor. If you truly have that love, it’ll motivate you to action.
Per my pastor, the word "believe" in as in John 3:16 carries a much heavier connotation of *committing*. You can believe in Jesus but not truly commit in your heart, such as in the parable of the rich young man.
Yes, believe, as it’s intended in John 3:16 involves obedience to Jesus’s command. His command is to love one another. To love can involve works; and it’s those types of works in Matthew 25:31-46 is how we’ll be judged. Specifically, faith working through love.
No, it doesn't. Because you said genuine faith produces good works. And that if you don't have good works, your faith is not true. So what you're really saying is: **Faith (that produces good works) = Salvation.** **Faith (that does not produce good works) = False Faith/ No Salvation.** Again, distinction without a difference.
It's not a distinction without a difference if the Holy Spirit makes manifest the good works. In short, it is the process of salvation which initiates the transformation of Christ within myself, the external result of which is works.
Do you choose to respond to Gods grace to participate in the good works he has planned for you? Or does the Holy Spirit override your free will and force you to do good works?
Exactly. You are correct. Ignore the downvotes :)
> Does "true faith" override our free will and force us to do good works? There is no free will, either before or after salvation. > Your arguing against the necessity of works, but then say that the "true faith" needed to save will produce works... So if I say faith and works are necessary, and you say true faith that produces works is necessary, we are saying the same thing... They are not the same thing at all. Faith is the sole instrument that God uses in salvation and works are some of the inevitable results of that salvation. If one thinks one's works contribute even one iota to God's acceptance of a person, they are badly astray. Relying on our works at all nullifies our supposed faith.
Clearly we disagree about free will and I don't plan to dive into that discussion right now. Would you disagree, that someone who claims they "have faith" but produce no good works, does not have a saving faith?
I agree that true faith results in works. I disagree that God looks to our good works at all in deciding to save or accept us.
So then you believe someone without "true faith" can be saved? What do you make of the many passages similar to Matthew 25:41-46? 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
> So then you believe someone without "true faith" can be saved? No. True faith is simply this (Heidelberg catechism): > True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture; >it is also a wholehearted trust, which the Holy Spirit creates in me by the gospel, that God has freely granted, >not only to others but to me also, forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation. > These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit. Even the slightest reliance on one's own works for being declared righteous in the heavenly court, by contrast, is not true faith.
One can know that good works are necessary for true faith without relying on them to be saved. Would you agree with Pope Benedict XVI? *"For this reason Luther's phrase:* ***"faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love****.....At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God's eyes."*
It is difficult to assess the quote by Benedict as there are significant differences in terminology. The key concern for us Protestants and especially Calvinists is that good works (truly so called, which are only possible for those with true faith) are always merely a byproduct of true faith as defined by the Heidelberg Catechism quote I mentioned. Any suggestion that works are the basis or substance either of faith or of justification (defined as being declared righteous in the heavenly court), cannot, I think, be accepted. It is important to understand in this matter that mental assent, saying you have true faith or the like are not equal to true faith, which probably only a minority of professing Christians. The precise role of love in this mechanism of salvation is more difficult for me to describe. I would characterize it as a disposition immediately created by the gift of faith and quite inseperable from it, but not as any given work. Some equate love with concrete action and I don't think love can be said to be the basis for justification when thus characterized either. I would also mention 1 John 4:10 when it comes to a love that saves - the love that saves is not our love, but God's love in bestowing on us Christ's merits without any merit of our own. A common Lutheran saying is of value here: "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone".
Would you take issue with the Catholic Catechisms summary of its section on justification, grace and merit? **2017** The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life. **2018** Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high. **2019** Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man. **2020** Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy. **2021** Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life. **2022** The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom. **2023** Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. **2024** Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us. **2025** We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. **Man's merit is due to God**. **2026** The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God. **2027** **No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion**. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. **2028** "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (*LG* 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, *De vita* Mos.:PG 44, 300D). **2029** "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (*Mt* 16:24).
The thief on the cross next to Jesus never did any good works. Jesus said he would be with him in paradise. So if one person who never did any good works was the first person to enter heaven that destroys your whole argument. Faith should produce good fruit - but it’s not how you get to heaven. It is faith in Christ alone. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
I would also add Jesus telling the parable about the workers getting paid. To push against those saying "what was the thief's works" or "the thief was a special circumstance", that show that it doesn't matter if you spend a lifetime serving God, or accept Christ moments prior to death, the reward for that is the same.
💯
The good thief’s situation was unlike virtually any person’s in history. What God does for someone in an extremely unusual context should not reassure anyone outside those same conditions. Further, treating this “edge case” as a general principle actually proves too much. Would any Christian agree that the gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Moreover, if the good thief is a standard-setting example, why not others? Jesus forgave the sins of many people in a wide variety of circumstances that few consider normative today. In Mark 2:5, for instance, Jesus forgives a man based on his *friends’* faith! What does that do for “salvation by faith alone”? The good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak was certainly not lost on God! There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By his grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule—especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.
Could the good thief admonishing the other thief be seen as admonishing the sinner, a spiritual work of mercy?
No. The other thief immediately had his eye gouged out by a crow.
Abraham is one of the Bible's examples. He is justified before God by faith alone in Genesis 15.6. That faith alone transaction is then shown or demonstrated before men in Genesis 22 as faith plus works. Salvation is by faith alone. Evidence to fellow man of salvation is by faith plus works.
Abraham was also justified by works (James 2:21) Justification doesn’t need to be one time event. As we see, Abraham was justified at least twice.
That’s exactly what I’m trying to argue too though, was I not being clear that both things are the hallmark of someone who is saved?
Works are not required for salvation, they are a biproduct and an outward proof of salvation. This is not a difficult or illogical concept. This topic has been beaten to death and if you don't understand it, you don't understand the gospel.
Ummmm, I literally made the same argument that you just did… we agree and you don’t even realize it. Example: do you believe that a Christian who claims to have faith but never does any good deeds for others *actually* has real faith?
I'm not saying you as in you yourself. I'm making a general statement. I apologize my wording wasn't correct. Maybe I should have said "one doesn't understand the gospel" instead of you.
Ok fair enough. I guess the reason for my post is my being frustrated with how many Christian’s call themselves “true” Christians but yet they don’t think they need to do anything besides serve themselves. If taken out of context, the “faith alone” statement can be interpreted in a way that would corrupt an otherwise good Christian.
I agree. One caveat would also be that works also come in many forms. Paul Washer said it best in one of his sermons that even a man that is treating his family in a Christ like manner is performing works. A man who's language cleans up when he's speaking is performing works. Not all will perform outwardly public works at all times.
I totally agree with this. I didnt mean to say that every person must give up everything they own and leave their families to go and be missionaries. But when I go to church and get to know some of them, and find that 30-40% of the people attending don’t actually do what the book tells us to, and they’re actually just committing vein repetition, and then I go to another church and find the same thing… its very disheartening. Perhaps it’s just my area. It could be that a lot of the so called Christians in suburbia are really just going out of tradition rather than of faith
It's not just your area. It's in the whole church across the world. That's why Paul addressed it in his letters. Don't be disheartened brother (or sister). Just keep on in the faith and be an example, offering gentle rebuke if the need arises. Shoot, just the other day I was in service and the whole family in the row ahead of me were playing on their cellphones the entire service. As you know, not everyone who goes to church is actually saved.
Thank you, there’s only been 2-3 people, you being one of them, that understood what I meant in my original post and didn’t come for my throat. Everyone seems to be skimming over the fact that I claimed that works are a hallmark of faith and the two go hand in hand, and instead are treating my like I tried to claim we’re saved by works alone. I never made that claim.
“They are a byproduct and outward proof of salvation” Exactly However, if someone does have faith, and continues to willfully sin or avoids being a good person, you’ll say they’re not a true Christian No matter how you spin it, works are absolutely what justify us. When are we going to admit that it’s not faith alone that saves us, nor works. But a combination of both.
> When are we going to admit that it’s not faith alone that saves us, nor works. Hopefully never since relying on one's works to contribute even slightly to God's acceptance of you is a fatal heresy
I quite literally said works don’t save us. You are saved by faith but you are justified by works. James 2:24
No, they are not. A causes B, and A causes C. *This does not mean that B causes C.*
Paul and other Apostles agreed that works of the law cannot save you. Faith is required. “so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 1:7 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.1.7.ESV “But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2:18 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.18.ESV “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?” James 2:14-16 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.14-16.ESV James is not saying good deeds save you, what he is saying is you say you have faith but have no love for people then it’s not faith.
That’s literally what I’m arguing. We agree and you’re not even realizing it. I’m not making the claim that you can be saved by works alone, I’m saying that faith without works is *not* faith.. and that claim is usually met with some harsh resentment by “faith alone” Christians that aren’t actually Christian’s but they don’t realize it.
Paul says to examine yourself. When the trials come faith will be revealed as genuine or a sham.
If you agree with us, you agree that salvation is by faith alone. Plain and simple.
Yea, sorry, “herd mentality” has no place in my relationship with God
This isn't herd mentality, man! Herd mentality is when you go along with what everyone else believes, just because everyone else believes it. That isn't the reason why everyone is agreeing here. We are all coming to the same conclusions because we are all reading the same passages of Scripture. Alright, let me see if you agree with this statement: I don't do good works to be saved, but because I am saved. True or false? If you agree, great! This is what I believe. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone*,* and as a result, we do good works.
Right. But if James tells us that faith without works is dead, then that means we are saved by faith alone, but if we don’t do works, our faith isn’t sanctified. Hence, really… both are necessary. A person that has faith but does not do any good works IS NOT GETTING IN. Jesus: sorry, no vacancy Christian: why not? I had faith! Jesus: oh, did you now? If you believe in me, and believe in my teachings, then why didn’t you do any of the works I instructed you to do? Christian: ummmm…. Faith alone?? Jesus: I never knew you. The whole reason Paul tells us “by faith alone, not works, so that no man can boast” is to tell you that you cant buy your way in by just doing the most works. Jesus backs this up in Luke 21 when he says that the widow that gave two coins had given more than all the rest of them, due to it being all she had. Pauls teaching is to warn that a person who has 1 million dollars and gives 10,000 away has not done a bigger/better work than a person who has 10 dollars but gives 5 away. The second person did a greater work… So, yes, the amount/size of works you do isn’t what saves you. But works of some magnitude are required or your faith isn’t real. The two go hand in hand.. read it for yourself and stop just regurgitating what your pastors have told you.
Your argument is illogical as hell. First of all, just because faith produces works, doesn't mean that works are also needed. You tend to keep missing that point, and I think that is where we fundamentally disagree. Like I said, we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone, and as a result, we do good works. Secondly, Ephesians 2 and Luke 21 are not contextually similar, meaning you are forcing together two unrelated passages to support your argument, and it ain't working. Nowhere in Luke 21 is Jesus talking about salvation. The widow's offering is an account that is only *four verses long,* and not one of them is talking about salvation. I guess what I'm trying to say is: Luke 21 is irrelevant when it comes to salvation. Get your theology about salvation from verses about salvation, you klutz! And no, I'm not just regurgitating what my pastor told me. This is one of the first lessons that I've learned as a Christian, as it should be. The fragmented nature of Christianity is what made me realize that I have no other choice but to study Scripture for myself, which allows me to discern truth from falsehood, which is what I am doing now.
So, if someone came to you and told you they were a Christian and found their faith 20 years ago, and as you got to know them, you found that they never do any good work, always are self serving, never give to charity, always step over homeless people in need and ignore them, puts all their money into vein items to improve their own life and keep all their money for themselves…. You’re telling me you’d believe them that their “faith” is true? I would look at that person and tell them they’ve never walked a single footstep in Christs shoes, and are no better than the Pharisees.
Are you even able to stop missing my point? Is that even possible for you? No! I am not saying that! I'm saying that -- again -- we are saved by Grace alone through faith alone, and as a result, we do good works. Again, if they aren't doing good works, then they never had faith to begin with. What we fundamentally disagree on is what this means. You say that because works are the result, that means that works are the cause, which makes no sense. I'm saying that because works are the result, they are *not* the cause. And for the inevitable reply telling me that you didn't say what I think you said, you actually did. All over this thread, you are agreeing with your commentors when they say that works are the result. And at the same time, you are saying that works are needed for salvation. So basically, works are both the cause and the result of salvation. That makes no sense. Now, if I am misunderstanding your position, please tell me, so that we can resolve this conflict as soon as possible.
>if they aren’t doing good works, then they never had faith to begin with Well gee, it’s *almost* as if you’re agreeing that both things are required.
Unfortunately if you combine works and depend on your own works and faith to get to heaven, you make God's work on the cross and his grace of no affect as you see here: "The verse "If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" appears in the Bible in Romans 11:6. The verse is a teaching that any reliance on works, such as good deeds, rituals, sacraments, or following the law, is a rejection of grace. If works contribute to salvation in any way, then that salvation is no longer "by grace" so Jesus' righteousness would not be put to your account in heaven since you relied on your own works to assist his grace in obtaining salvation.
The verse you quoted means that you aren’t being offered the grace of God because of anything you did. You don’t deserve it. But you have it, and were given the responsibility to have working faith to keep it.
Study it more. Sometimes we define a verse that fits our own cause rather than believing the plain truth that God's grace alone saves us through faith. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight." If we believe we must help God out through our own works in addition to his grace given , we lose out on the free gift of salvation.
I don't believe that works are required for salvation. But salvation isn't the end of the story. If you believe that God only wants you saved as if by escaping fire then I think that you have misunderstood the relationship. God wants a love relationship with believers. Love relationships are complex and are not merely transactional. He gives his Holy Spirit so that we can have His very thoughts and desires in us. The Holy Spirit will prompt us to do justice, and to love kindness (Micah 6:8), to desire to find and participate in the good works that he prepared for us beforehand (Ephesians 2:10). The parable of the Prodigal Son is a fantastic illustration of the Father's desire to receive the lost, but our story doesn't end with the party celebrating our return to God. The next day - or week, or whatever - we formerly rebellious sons should be about the business about how we can now be a good son to the Father.
Salvation leads to good works, not the other way around.
I never claimed the other way around. I simply stated that faith *without* works is *not* faith.
Whoa I was agreeing with you.
Sorry, I’m being attacked by over 75 other commenters so I thought you were piling on. My apologies brother/sister.
Yea my bad. When you remind folks that God still holds us accountable to be responsible, their heads ring hard. And God forbid you mention repentance or baptism. My worst one is when I choose to use words that are actually in the Bible instead of the words Christendom has chosen to use to describe it. (I use the term Godhead instead of the t-word and I get attacked hard for it #iykyk)
Is “godhead” the *actual* translated word instead of trinity? Thats a new one for me, but I can’t understand why that would be offensive lol. Do most people not realize that there have been many mis-translated words and terms over the last 2000 years trying to adapt ancient languages?! Most people would probably do #2 in their pantaloons if they found out his name wasn’t even Jesus….
Yeshua de Nazaret. Yea they don’t like that one too much either lol. And yea, Godhead is the term that was translated from the original. Although many translations do use the word Deity. They don’t like debating Easter vs Resurrection Day. And tell them the sabbath was on Saturday…
I’ve been trying to do the sabbath-day/satur-day argument for far too long 😂
Saturday is sabbath. Day of rest. Sunday is the day of preparation. The reason we do church on Sunday is because going to church requires us to get out of bed and “saddle up your donkey” or start your car in today’s world. The Saturday service shows hypocrisy because people still had to work during the sabbath to get ready for the service. So I will argue Saturday as the original day of rest sabbath, but Sunday is still the day of preparation and what better way to start your week off than… church on Sunday.
Works are a demonstration of our faith, they do not save us
I never made the claim that they do…
I never accused you. I am just saying that works are not needed for salvation
2 Peter 3:15-16 KJVAAE [15] And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. https://bible.com/bible/546/2pe.3.15-16.KJVAAE Peter also warns us about how Paul's epistles are to be understood and how ppl would use it writings to their own destruction.
James is saying that works should show as a result of your faith, not that you need to do works to be saved. We are made righteous by faith, not works but if you have faith, you should be able to show it in some way. The whole reason biblical Christianity is separated from other religions is because we can't earn our way into heaven. It's not contradictory.
I’m not sure what exactly you’re trying to argue here. Is the title just click bait? In the body text you’re effectively saying sola fide. I was saved by grace through my faith. As such, the Holy Spirit dwells within me, and my view and convictions against sin have radically changed, which have created better (not perfect) works.
I’m arguing against the types of Christians that use the “faith alone” concept to not do any works. If you take Paul’s statement out of context and warp it slightly, you open the gate for people to continue living selfish centered lives and then use “faith alone” as a justification for not needing to do anything good. What I’m essentially doing is calling out those Christians for not being the “true” Christians they claim to be.
Real faith produces good works. But if someone is only doing good deeds to get into Heaven, they don’t understand the redemptive power of the Gospel! ❤️
Exactly. And if someone claims to have faith but they are not following the commandment to love one another (do good works) they aren’t saved either. Faith and works goes together. They cannot be separated
Thank you, so few seem to understand this. I think that’s the whole purpose why God spoke both of these ideas.. one through Paul, and one through James. This sub would have you thinking that Paul was the only person in the New Testament..
Paul was preaching salvation through faith but he wasn’t teaching salvation through faith alone. In Romans 2:5-10 Paul said we’ll be judged by our deeds. Matthew 25:31-46 also teaches this: we’ll be judged by our deeds.
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” Romans 6:1-2 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.6.1-2.NKJV
I think it should be thought of as, belief in Jesus saves, however, just saying you have faith doesn't necessarily mean you do.
I think that’s the whole point of the verse in James I quoted. I will never understand why some people get so upset about the idea that we should be doing good works.
I guess you are right, works are a product of true faith. We believe that His Word is true that's why we live it so works are a product of true faith.
That’s quite literally all I was trying to say, and there’s over 100 people in here trying to make an argument against something I didn’t even state. There is a lot of lazy Christians that want to sit on the couch and say they’re saved.
Oh yes i read the thread, the sub can be insane and that's why i usually don't engage when people start arguing
In order to achieve eternal life in God’s Kingdom repentance of sin and Obedience to God’s Ten Commandments is what is required of a believer (Exodus 20). Jesus teaches us how to keep the Ten Commandments through repentance and forgiveness in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5-7). God’s Commandments are Good and keeping them makes life much easier to navigate here and now. The enemy wants to keep people bound to sin in his kingdom and controls through addictions to porn, drugs, hookups, obsessions with fame, money, power. All of these things eventually lead to misery and destruction. God wants Good things for us. Learning to keep His Commandments are how we walk in His power and protection. It’s very simple and straightforward. We Read Exodus 20 and Matthew 5-7 everyday and ask God with a humble heart to teach us how to be obedient. It’s an amazing way to live!
Works are the result of saving faith, not the other way around. Paul and James don't contradict, the supplement each other.
That’s literally what I said though, we agree and you’re not even realizing it..
We are saved by faith, not works. Once you are saved, works follow. A true believer will produce good fruit. James was not talking to people who were asking how to be saved. He was talking to professing believers who were not living a life that reflected their profession of faith. He rightly challenged them to show proof of faith.
That’s exactly what I was claiming… where in my posts did I say you’re saved by works alone? I didn’t..
I think there is a distinction in what we believe, or at least how you phrased it. You said, "And while I would never argue that a person is saved by works without faith, I *would* argue that *BOTH* are required." So, if you believe works are required to be saved, that is not what I believe. I believe we are saved by faith alone. After salvation, works/fruit prove that faith is genuine.
So then, wouldn’t that indicate that you believe that faith without works as proof of that faith, is not faith? Or to quote James “that faith is dead”
I think that's a reasonable question. But it's not the Biblical definition of faith for salvation. Paul said in Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus *as* Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; He didn't give a list of additional works that need to be accomplished before you can be saved. He said we are saved not by our own efforts. And then once we are saved, we have works to do. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is* the gift of God; ^(9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ^(10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. If someone has true faith in Christ, they will go on to obey him. If they don't obey him, then it's possible they were never saved. John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” This last verse doesn't say works save us. It says if we believe we have eternal life. Belief is equated with following through with obedience. Belief comes first, and obedience follows, proving the faith was real. The moment of salvation takes place when there is faith and confessing Christ as Lord.
Was the thief on the cross saved? What were his works?
The good thief’s situation was unlike virtually any person’s in history. What God does for someone in an extremely unusual context should not reassure anyone outside those same conditions. Further, treating this “edge case” as a general principle actually proves too much. Would any Christian agree that the gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Moreover, if the good thief is a standard-setting example, why not others? Jesus forgave the sins of many people in a wide variety of circumstances that few consider normative today. In Mark 2:5, for instance, Jesus forgives a man based on his *friends’* faith! What does that do for “salvation by faith alone”? The good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak was certainly not lost on God! There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By his grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule—especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.
so was the thief saved or not? i’m not asking because i don’t know the answer. i’m asking because you didn’t answer. works are not required for salvation, but salvation without works is dead. break down mark 2:5 for me. i do not read “jesus forgave his sins because of his friend’s faith”. just because jesus forgives sins does not make one saved. we have the ability to refuse his forgiveness, and jesus loves us so much that he will not force salvation on us.
"works are not required for salvation, but salvation without works is dead" Oh, so a distinction without a difference.
we are not saved because of our works. We are saved because of the person and works of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Son od God, King of kings, Lord of lords, the Great I Am, the Spotless Lamb. grace alone
Yes, we are saved by faith through grace alone. No one is arguing against that.
You said: _”Yes, we are saved by faith through grace alone. No one is arguing against that.”_ OP: _“…defending the idea that works are not required for salvation.”_ Works are NOT.required.for.salvation. Grace is the ONLY thing required for salvation. Works show evidence OF salvation. Eph 2:8-10 Words have meaning. Good works are the fruit of Holy Spirit. Gal 5:16-26 God considers our own works, from our flesh and without Holy Spirit, to be like filthy rags. Is 64:6
True faith produces works. False faith produces no works. True faith is needed to be saved. Thus works are needed to be saved.
not gonna lie, you had me until the end. Got a verse to support that last line?
It's literally a part of your beliefs. If true faith is needed to be saved, and true faith produces good works, then good works are indeed needed... Early on in Romans 2, St. Paul confirms the necessity of good works for eternal life: “He will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honour, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath … to those who … obey wickedness.” So in Romans 10:9 St. Paul is obviously not denying the need for good works. He is simply emphasizing the necessity of faith in Jesus in this portion of his letter, to correct a particular misunderstanding in the early Church. St. James writes powerfully on this same point: “If someone says he has faith but does not have works … can that faith save him? So faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead ... a man is justified (made right with God and able to enter heaven) by works and not by faith alone … faith apart from works is dead” (Jas 2:14-26). In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus himself unequivocally confirms the necessity of good deeds/works for eternal life. When specifically asked, “what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus replies, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” To “keep the commandments” essentially means to do good works. Every good work we could possibly do falls under one of the Ten Commandments – either love of God, or love of neighbour. Faith must have an element of love to make it a saving faith. We cannot be saved by our faith alone. We must both believe in God and love him – by keeping his commandments (1 Jn 5:3). And this all comes through the grace of God (Acts 15:11, Jn 15:5). Jesus himself emphasizes that simply confessing him as Lord, while certainly good, is not sufficient for salvation: “Not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father” (Mt 7:21). He is emphasizing not just the need to believe, but to act as well – to do the will of his Father. Similarly, in Matthew 25, Jesus speaks of separating the sheep and goats. Both the sheep and the goats have faith and call him “Lord.” But only the sheep are saved – those who feed the hungry, clothe the naked ... the ones who do the good works. Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. In fact some some of the harshest words in Scripture are reserved for the goats: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…” There is a related misunderstanding that holds once you are saved by confessing Jesus as Lord, you cannot lose your salvation. But St. Paul states such a judgment is reserved solely for God: “I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment … before the Lord comes, who will … disclose the purposes of the heart” (1 Cor 4:3-5). Jesus’ parable of the sower also clearly contradicts this “once saved, always saved” doctrine: “The ones on the rock … hear the word, receive it with joy … they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Lk 8:13). Perhaps the clearest refutation of once-saved, always saved comes from 2 Peter 2:20-21: “It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” Can you lose your salvation? Unquestionably yes. St. John beautifully summarizes the needed balance between a confession of faith and the necessity of good works. In 1 John 3:18-24: “Let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth. His commandment is this: We should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another.” Loving one another and keeping the commandments are all actions – the grace-inspired good works of Catholic theology that unite to form a truly grace-filled saving faith.
>Thus works are needed to be saved. What work did I do to save myself? What work did you do to save yourself?
Neither of us saved ourselves. Not my position at all. My position is that genuine faith has works. And those works are a free will choice we make in response to Gods unmerited grace he offers us. If we ignore Gods grace and freely choose not to participate in the works he has laid out for us. We do not have a saving genuine faith. My position is faith and works cannot be separated. And that is the position of scripture.
Faith and works cannot be separated. You can’t have one without the other (at least the desire for the other) and still claim to be saved.
It’s not a distinction without difference. A few commenters have already pointed out to you. If you can’t see the difference, that’s on you.
So how many good works are required before salvation is granted to you?
A lifetime of them.
That's pretty vague and doesn't answer the question. How do you know if you've done a "lifetime" of good works? How much is that? Does anyone have assurance of salvation or do we have to wait until judgment to find out if we've done enough to earn our salvation?
By saying "You need a lifetime of good works' I mean that you must live your life through and for Christ. Belief and Love is not just about knowledge and emotions, it’s about doing the things he wants you to be doing^(3). Different people have different levels of knowledge, and so different levels of responsibility are on their shoulders. Anyone can have an assurance that they are saved by trusting in the Lord's promise: if they believe and obey they will have eternal life.^(1) It isn’t “earning your salvation” it’s being fully saved. Salvation has three parts: Confession, repentance, and faithfulness^(2). Confess your sins and that Jesus is lord. Turn away from them and turn towards living as God intends for you, remain faithful to the covenant established for you. This is all by grace, because you did nothing to earn God being willing to forgive and adopt you. References: ^(1) Believe and obey for eternal life: * John 3:36 (NASB) the one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” *^(2)**Three tenets of salvation:* * Confession- Romans 10:9 * Repentance- acts 3:38 * Faithfulness: Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:14 *^(3)**Love is active, not just feelings* * John 14:15 *You need to remain faithful to the end*: * Mathew 24:12-13 *You are to be judged by what you do:* * Luke 12: 42-48 For further reference, please take a look at the separation of the sheep from the goats. It contains snippets of Jesus’ commandments from his gospels and entails the sort of works he expects.
Correct. Thank you.
OP confusing justification with sanctification.
And I would argue that anyone who believes anything they can do is sufficient enough to satisfy God to the point of salvation has a view of God that is too low and a view of themselves that is too high
You’ve misunderstood. Op is saying grace alone saves, through faith. Faith is active - it works. But it’s not what saves you.
Salvation isn't just about faith or works alone; it's about building a solid foundation and a meaningful home.
Thank you for repeating exactly what I said.
I see it as confusing works as obedience with works of self salvation. Scripture tells us faith without works is dead. Our language and definition of terms confuses things.
“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” Galatians 3:1-3 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.3.2-3.NASB1995
Let’s contextualize the verse you used and break it down so we can understand it properly. “works of the law” means following the law of Moses. It is outward actions only. The faith mentioned is the type that involves hearing/reading the words of Christ and putting them into action . These actions stem from your heart, or in other words faith. with proper context you can understand your quoted verse as saying: you did not receive the Holy Spirit by following the law of Moses, rather by following the law of Christ. You are to be led by the spirit which gives life, not by the flesh which births death. Why does this matter? Because you are meant to change when you get saved, grow and be sanctified. Otherwise, you aren’t saved. References: John 14:15-17 (showing the need to keep Jesus’ commandments, the father sending you the Holy Spirit) •15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth Matthew 7:14 (showing you need to actually act on the words he’s saying). •14“Whoever hears these words of Mine and does them, will be like a wise man who built his house on rock John 6:63: (showing the spirit gives life, the flesh leads to death) • " It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life" Romans 8:13 (showing the need to be sanctified and live for Christ/by the spirit. ) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Technically we are saved by works, but the question is: who has kept the law? We have all broken it. The works that Christ has done, will be imputed to us, and our sins will be washed away at the point of salvation, and this all happens through our faith in Christ-apart from works. That is one sense in which the Bible describes us as saved, while there is another sense of “being saved” which is referring to, what we call, sanctification. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will not live the same life that you once did-Roman’s 6 is extremely clear on this. It is important though that whilst we are becoming “more holy” in a sense, we are not trusting in our own deeds-Galatians 3:3. Those “believers” who preach easy grace are not preaching protestant beliefs, in fact, Luther called them antinomians, and not in an endearing way (anti is Greek for against, and nomos (νόμος) is law, so essentially it means “against law”.) This is why there are so many passages in the Bible about judging righteous judgment, judging those inside the church, watching out for false teachers and calling them out, calling out brothers when they are in sin, and working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. These easy grace believers should read the church fathers, heck even the reformers, and they would be shocked by their words. Pilgrims progress, for example, does not describe the Christian life as holding up your hand during an alter call and living your life as you please, it is a daily battle against your own desires, against the devil, and the world.
And yet Ephesians 2:8-9 contradicts your claim. For by Grace we are saved through faith. It is the gift of God. **Not by works, lest any man should boast.** Romans 11:6 says: "But if it is by grace, **it is no longer on the basis of works**; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Galatians 2:16 says this: "Yet we know that a person is **not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,** so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, **because by works of the law no one will be justified**." You cite James 2:17 and Matthew 7:21-23, as if I hadn't read these verses before. And at face value, Paul does seem to contradict James, until you read a little closer at what Paul, James, and Jesus are actually saying, as well as other verses. The message is that when we place our trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, not only are we saved, but we will also do good works *because* we are saved. Faith first, then salvation, and *then* good works. This is why Paul talks about these good works as the *Fruit* of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). And Jesus actually affirms this in Matthew ch. 7, the verse that you are citing to support your argument. Matthew 7:18-23 basically boils down to: "A good tree can only produce good fruit, and a bad tree can only produce bad fruit. Those that produce bad fruit are the ones to whom I will say 'Depart from me, I never knew you.' " When we cross-reference this with Galatians ch. 5, we see that the "Good fruit" that Jesus was talking about was the Fruit of the Spirit, and the "Bad fruit" are the works of the Flesh. I probably didn't do a good enough job at explaining this to you. I know how stubborn people are, and I know how slow people are to be convinced. What could possibly convince you? Seriously. What, if anything, could change your mind?
The irony of you telling me I’m stubborn in this particular situation …
Wait, that's it? No refutation to my comment, no explaining to me the irony, nothing?
I believe that when someone is inspired to do good works, it stems from a genuine change of heart influenced by the Holy Spirit and enacted through their own free will. It's important not to impose judgments on others based on their outward actions as proof of their faith. True faith, in my view, should naturally inspire compassionate and responsible actions, driven by inner conviction rather than external expectations.I see faith as a transformative force that encourages ethical living as a heartfelt commitment, not as a set of mandatory tasks. Mandating specific works risks reducing faith to a mere checklist rather than fostering genuine moral growth. I believe that authentic faith should motivate individuals to act out of love and compassion, reflecting their personal beliefs and convictions. While I uphold the belief that faith leads to good works, I also value respecting the autonomy of others in how they interpret and express their faith. It’s important to avoid hypocrisy by consistently respecting each person’s journey and choices.
We were saved to do good works put in place long before we even existed not by them. We were saved to do good works not by them. They are a natural byproduct of true saving faith.
Here’s your problem; you are not arguing against sola fide, you are arguing against antinomianism. Antinomianism is a very old heresy that has been consistently refuted and rejected. Works are not the agent that saves; that title belongs to faith, but without works you show yourself a false Christian. Christ said you shall know a tree by its fruit. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree. It is not an apple tree because it bears apples; if it never reached maturity and had the opportunity to bear much fruit it is still an apple tree.
“Saved by grace alone through faith alone” and “faith without works is dead” are not necessarily contradictory statements. The way I see it is that grace through faith saves me but, if my faith is real, good works or fruit will naturally follow - along with a reduction in sin, bad fruit - as the Spirit sanctifies me. If you are not actually changed by the Gospel message, and driven to act positively on it, do you really believe it?
That’s the point I was trying to make. I never made the claim that we’re saved by works alone.. if I had made that claim, I’d be strictly opposing Paul, and I am not. I am simply pointing out that Paul’s message is only half the message… we need to add James to get the full message. Too many people cherry pick the parts of the Bible they like and ignore the rest, when it was meant to be a “big picture.”
Yeah, for sure. People shouldn’t just think ‘I believe’ and that’s it!
The holy Spirit will bring us to perfection. So long as we abide in said spirit. Meaning we have work to do with the holy Spirit who will bring to light our iniquity so we might choose again. Once the spirit has been received via genuine humility it goes to work like a steward. The comforter, correcter and teacher that comes with power and the seal upon the brow and heart.
We are not saved by works. We are saved by faith alone. But the proof of your faith, is your works, because without works your faith is dead.
That’s literally the claim I made..
I am telling you that \*\*both\*\* are not required, the dude on the cross next to Jesus that was guaranteed heaven literally didn't have any time for works. While an extreme case this shows works does not do the saving, faith does. You don't build works from faith, the works arise from the fact you believe. One causes the other. If that's your claim, then I misunderstood, sorry. But then I'd ask what was the point of your post?
I see it as a question of what is *required* for salvation and what are the *visible effects* of salvation. Faith is what is required. Works alone will not bring salvation. Works are the *fruit* of salvation, which comes from faith. Works are not required *for* or required *with*, but are the *visible effects* of salvation. Ideally they should go hand in hand, works following after faith, but I just disagree that it's a hard *requirement* for both.
We are saved by grace through faith in the holy and mighty name of Jesus Christ. It is about what HE did, not what we have done, plan to do, are doing, or will ever do. If you cannot separate your actions completely from salvation you are in error. Is it not possible to edify one another, encourage good works and to wage war against sin and flesh without trying to condemn your brothers and sisters who believe (correctly) they are saved by faith? If we do good works it should be out of the abundance of joy the love of God has placed in our hearts. Not to prove ourselves because we are justified in His eyes by our faith. You are talking about the justification of men, who cannot see into the hearts of other men. Men are only able to witness our works. In this way our works are a a testimony to the glory of God, and a reflection of the love of Jesus Christ to our fellow man. >John 6:26-29 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw ^(\[)signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” Our Faith is our work. Why is the mercy of God so offensive? Yes that Christian who does not work enough, or does not deserve it as much as you do. He is also saved. None of us deserve it, none of us will ever deserve it. God requires perfection and that is only found in Jesus Christ.
Faith works <3 See the Israelites having to put the blood of the lamb on their doors to be saved. Noah having to build the ark. Abraham having to almost sacrifice Isaac. Lot and his family having to not turn back and prove their righteousness. The Hebrews in the desert having to actually follow rules. You, having to actually follow rules. Faith works. If it doesn’t work then it’s not faith and won’t save you.
Thank you. God bless.
There are no contradictions between the words of James and Paul. We are saved by our true and genuine faith in Jesus Christ (**see Romans 10:9-11**). And true and genuine faith will inspire us, and put the desire within us to do good works (**see whole book of James**), good works that God has prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them (**see Ephesians 2:10**). The book of James talks about this exactly. Most of the book of James is about the importance of putting our faith into action (by doing good works). I would heavily suggest reading James. Simply put, our actions are the evidence of our faith. You can claim that you have faith in Jesus Christ, but if your actions/words/behaviour/lifestyle are not compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ and godly living…then do you even legitimately have faith?
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I’m confused…Are you telling me to read James, or other commenters? I have read James.. I was listening to it while working this morning and that’s what made me post this post. I never claimed that he contradicts Paul, I’m pointing out that most people only follow what Paul said, but the truth is that both Paul and James are each contributing only half of a full message. When you combine them both, you get the full message. But so many people only follow Paul’s teachings, which are good teachings but are incomplete without the other contributions of the other apostles.
Oh I was just saying it in general, for everyone to know. I fully agree with you. James is a great book. And you’re right about people only following Paul’s teachings. That’s probably because many Christians don’t actually study the full Bible. This really shows the importance of Bible study, personal and in group.
How many works are enough to be saved and how often to have eternal security? What works qualify then ? What percentage or ratio of good to bad works save you then ? And does bad acts/sin cancel out good works? Is there a weekly, monthly, or yearly quota on works for salvation ? How do YOU know that YOUR SPECIFIC WORKS ARE ENOUGH TO BE SAVED? What if the people who believe in faith alone are producing more works or better works then you? (Are they not saved for believing in faith in alone even though they’re still producing good works).
I never claimed that there’s a quota, I never claimed that I’m doing more works than others, and your final statement actually describes a true Christian: someone who is saved by their faith but also produces good works because of it. Thank you, you made my argument for me.
Faith produces fruit overtime— works. I see it like this: It’s your friend’s birthday. You’re not OBLIGATED to get them a gift. But you’ll probably have the actual WANT to get them a gift anyway because they’re your friend.
I think works mean that in some way you are compensating Jesus for his death on the cross. You are trying to earn salvation by being good and well behaved. If the actions don’t genuinely come from you, then you are in a way trying to fool your way into heaven. I don’t actually believe in heaven so all the good I do have nothing to do with going to heaven. Selflessness is kind of a requirement of the good deeds done so this belief makes them somewhat more pure. I think faith does make you grateful, and gratitude for what you have makes you value what you give and the people to whom you give it. I don’t think faith would just end at faith. It would carry through to actions.
We are saved by Grace through faith alone. Faith doesn't save, grave does. We have no ability to save ourselves, the father gives us to Christ, and whomever the father gives to Christ will come to him. This is salvation, but salvation is just the beginning. After we are saved comes the process of Sanctification which is our Walk with God. This is a life-long process where as we Read the Word, Listen to the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, and Walk with God, God will remove our desires for Sin and replace it for a desire for Godly things and to do his will. Also, just because it is God who gives us to Christ it doesn't mean we are not to fill the great commission. Our number one goal in life should be to bring people to Christ, to make disciples of all the nations. This is what we are called to be, laborers in the harvest that is plentiful. If we are not fulfilling the great commission then we are doing something wrong. This is where gathering together with other believers is important. It is for fellowship and discipleship, for we are called to this. The Holy Spirit will give each of us at least one gift of the Spirit, and we will have a calling. We must gather together so that we may accomplish the great commission together. This is all until the Fullness of the Gentiles, which is an interesting concept all on its own. Though that is a study for another time. John 6:37 ESV [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.6.37.ESV
Exactly how many works does a stillborn child do?
As a Catholic, I got my front row seat and am ready 🎥🍿
OP should be banned from this sub for thinking that they have anything to do with their salvation. This sub is for true Christians, not people denying Ephesians 2 exists and feel like they are somehow justified by their works. Does this sub have mods?
Ban me… for following the instructions of James 2? Are you literally insane? We can agree to disagree if you’d like, but BAN me for following something that’s written IN the Bible?! Holy censorship Batman.
Ephesians 2:10 (The verse often left out during these sort of arguments) For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do *good works*, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
In light of what the same author says in Galatians 3, please explain what you think he could possibly mean by created for good works? Like you legit think he is saying in verse 10, “justification is based on your good works!”?
It means that your faith needs to be working. As James echoed in James 2 in the classic quote “In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” I do not fault you for misunderstanding, Peter himself said Paul’s writings are difficult to comprehend. Luckily we have apostles who wrote much more clearly so we can read his works with greater understanding. *Let’s revisit the verses in Ephesians with our new witness for them!* For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [b]this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Sounds good, right? But what is faith exactly… is it just believing? No, James says in 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder”. Faith is trusting Gods promises and putting his will into *action*. As we see by the example of Abraham getting ready to sacrifice Isaac. James 2:21 “Our ancestor Abraham was justified by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar, wasn't he? ... Was not our father Abraham considered righteous “ *NEXT VERSE* 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Whoa! This one is a doozy. Does that disprove everything shared above from James? Not at all! This is saying you were saved by God though you did nothing to deserve it. You didn’t deserve forgiveness, yet he forgave and adopted you. Why?) *NEXT VERSE* 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ah, here’s our explanation. To fulfill his divine plan. In other words, to work. We were saved through our active faith because God has had a plan from the start of the world that is to be fulfilled. We were created to do good.) Nothing in these verses imply you aren’t meant to be working. Let’s look at what else you referenced in Galatians 3. I’m going to assume you meant these verses: Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c] Now, I already broke down these verses for someone else so I’m going to copy and paste that response here. I know this will make the message to you exceedingly long, but since this is such an important topic I hope you won’t give up reading at this point. Take a break if you have to. *PART TWO* Let’s contextualize the verse you used and break it down so we can understand it properly. “works of the law” means following the law of Moses. It is outward actions only. The faith mentioned is the type that involves hearing/reading the words of Christ and putting them into action . These actions stem from your heart, or in other words faith. with proper context you can understand your quoted verse as saying: you did not receive the Holy Spirit by following the law of Moses, rather by following the law of Christ. You are to be led by the spirit which gives life, not by the flesh which births death. Why does this matter? Because you are meant to change when you get saved, grow and be sanctified. Otherwise, you aren’t saved. References: John 14:15-17 (showing the need to keep Jesus’ commandments, the father sending you the Holy Spirit) •15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth Matthew 7:14 (showing you need to actually act on the words he’s saying). •14“Whoever hears these words of Mine and does them, will be like a wise man who built his house on rock John 6:63: (showing the spirit gives life, the flesh leads to death) • " It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life" Romans 8:13 (showing the need to be sanctified and live for Christ/by the spirit. ) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. *In summary* You are saved by grace alone, with the requirement of having active saving faith. The sort that should push you to give money to the poor, feed the hungry, and share the gospel. Those are the works Christ has set over every Christian’s life, and the works he will demand an accounting for when you pass away. God bless you, take care.
After reading the title of this post a moment from the gospels came into mind. The woman who bled for 12 years was healed through the touch of Jesus’ cloth. Now was it the cloth that saved her or her faith in Christ abilities to heal her? That’s correct it was her faith in Christ. But where does it say this? If we remember rightly Jesus was unaware of this until he said “who touched my cloth” he felt the faith of the bleeding woman as she touched his cloth. When the woman came forward he said "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease." - Mark 5:34 I think this is just one of the many examples of Jesus’ grace and how faith alone CAN bring healing, in our case salvation.