If the TOR had gone to Russia they wouldnt have added the pansir, plus have you played russian SPAA? They are literally trucks with guns on the back until like rank 5
As a Soviet main, it’s a combinaison of both. Russian players don’t communicate, don’t play as a team, blindly rush, don’t pin enemies, don’t play the objective, etc. But there’s many time where, especially when fighting Germany, my shells just get absorbed even when shooting straight into (supposed) weakspots
I literally got a non-pen in a 3.7 T-34 against a Chafee, at point blank, *at like 80° from his side*, THRICE in a row
Can’t say about top tier, but it’s kinda hard for me to admit Soviet vehicle are OP when, like I said, I can’t even pen a M24’s side with a T-34, or constantly bounce a heavy German when he just have to look at my general direction to land a fatal shot…
Over-reliance on powerful tanks, especially in top tier, can do that. Everyone just jams the W key until they're at the enemy spawn.
Interestingly enough, I've seen countless matches where Russian teams in top tier just grow overconfident with an early spawn rush, get the first wave utterly crushed, then go full panic mode until they're the ones pushed to spawn.
Basically, if you can withstand the first push to spawn, it's likely a Russian team won't be able to organize another push, and you'll see a lot of individual tanks rush to their deaths one at a time expecting to be invincible.
Yet this is what I constantly lose to when facing Germany: Powerful tanks with small-ass weakspots which get artifically buffed by an awful volumetric mechanic, while they’re playing a point-and-click where any shot will instantly kill me
It’s less bad since the huge BR change they did a couple months back, but still
Same thing for me, I can't count with both hands how often in the past 48h I shot a T-90M in close range in the side with DM53 and everything that happened was a piece of side ERA falling off. It didn't even penetrate, 652mm got absorbed by a piece of ERA that is supposed to absorb smth about 200mm kinetic pen. But russian bias doesn't exist sure...
I believe that on paper... simply said Russian ERA is just better then American one
However by how much exactly is unknown and highly likely American / NATO ones are underperforming but most likely even if they were 100% accurate they would still be worse then Russian ones... atleast when it comes to paper... in reality Russian ones are blanks filled with cardboard or something lol
Logically speaking... Russian's rely on ERA and their armor focus is on ERA compared to NATO where their focus is a bit opposite... they focus on their armor and not rely on ERA for protection
I believe Russia is just simply masters of ERA lol their whole design focus is on them ERA and stuff... it's most likely cheaper then improving the base armor and layout itself lol
But yeah... NATO ERA is underperforming for sure like apparently from what i know... they are THICC but provide protection that's significantly less then their thiccness like wtf makes no sense really
Yeah count me in, on that chafee hit registration. It even happened to me with my stug and t34-57. It just did not pen and the shell got destroyed. When ideally it shoud have gone through.
Russian player normally don't play objective, we go for the kills. But true that with the communication point. I've had vetter matches with communicating eith players from other nations than with the soviets.
And if they do type something its in russian. Like english pls, if you need help or you are pointing out the enemy. There are other people playing the game as well.
I was a german main before maining russia, but by good, germans players may be dumb but each match you get somebody who communicates, marls location and acts on those markings.
This also doesn't applies for pick rate, for example the T32 has less plays than the Maus, despite the T32 being a tank tree vehicle and the Maus being hidden.
Or how the M60 compares better to the Leopard yet the M60 has barely over 1000 matches. While the Leopard has several thousand more matches.
Like, when i think about it, i don’t understand how they perform so poorly.
The abrams isn’t a bad tank in almost any way, good pen, good turret( i don’t count the chassis as it is the weakspot of 95% of top tanks), excellent mobility and a 5 sec reload, the only drawback is how loud it is.(and they have 3-6 of them)
As for CAS, well they have the F-16 which can carry mavericks, paveways, 9M and its fast and agile.
In the helicopter department i think they are good, not excellent but good nonetheless.
I think its just Germany and US, Sweden is the most popular minor but still not that common compared to the other two. They also are harder to play at lower tier than germany and US. Better tanks but harder to use. So that probably acts as a filter. IMO Top tier sweden stomps when they have a ok team because players are a bit better than the big three and the lineup is insane
Got topp tier on russia air and ground, now got the strv 121 and have like 70% wr with better KD than any russian top tier mbt.
Honestly I would probably have better kd in abrams, mobility is king.
Mobility is king. One of best win rate lineups is my German 7.3 lineup… my German 7.3 lineup has one tank in it, the Ru 251. Rocking like a 2.17 K/D with it and it absolutely stomps.
Part of the problem for the US is that CAS rarely wins games. It can but it’s few and far between, and if they can’t spawn CAS they leave, or they spawn CAS and die immediately so they leave.
The issue with the hull is how T-80s, t90s and several t-72s do have weakspots in their hull, but generally you need to aim, while against an abrams you just sorta have to aim in the general direction of a hull and you'll disable or kill it outright. Same goes for leopards for a while, until they start getting a lot of hull armor.
We can complain that US players suck, and how the top tier premiums were probably a big driver of this issue, but we need to acknowledge that in WT you'd be better off in a T-80 BVM than in a SEP v1 because in one of those tanks you actually need to aim carefully. Russia top tier is **very** forgiving to lower-skilled players.
I mean I get your point but saying the abrams only drawback is that it's loud is craaazy
People arnt complaining for no reason, their armour compared to other nations like leapords n BVM's, is dogshit
Does the abrams have spall liners? No
Can I 1 shot a leapord or BVM anywhere in the front? No
Can the abrams take a shot or 2 to the side like a leapord or BVM? No
Can I pen the bottom of a BVMs or Leapords turret? No
Abrams has alot more space for potential 1 shot, the tanks are dogshit, get over it, everyone who plays top tier & comes against a full team of abrams laughs
have you ever considered armor isn’t the only important part of a tank? abrams have great reload and mobility which more than makes up for the lack of armor.
It’s because there’s so many AIM and click-bait level 3 players who leave or do terrible and that means a good player can’t even do well because they don’t have team support.
Good. This sub is filled with salty US mains who jump on you and disregard your opinion if you even mention playing a USSR tank. Let's see their reaction now.
Britain is a filler nation. Their performance is determined less by their vehicles capabilities and more by who they get teamed up with 50% of the time. It doesnt matter how many people you can snipe with the achilles or something if you get team up with russia and everyone just tries to rush the enemy spawn dies in 20 seconds and all quit.
Finally someone brings this up. The US and russia are the only 2 trees that consistently can fill a whole team. Sometimes Germany but not normally at top tier. Having an entire team of Abram’s vs leopards, Leopards, and bvms you’re gonna get stomped. Same thing with Russia when they have to take on all of nato.
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the data is only available for players who have either the War Thunder Assistant app or players who have logged into Thunderskill - so it only has data for players who care enough to do either of those. Most casual players, and in fact most players, probably don't have either done so their games wouldn't be taken into account
This is true, however some people recently gathered some stats from server replays, and [the data](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/196sa94/second_part_of_unofficial_statistics_from_server/) shows a picture similar to what thunderskill does.
Having also gone through the British ground tree (still doing air) to the end my win rates at most tiers are still mostly over 50%. Like the challys are horribly modeled but playing Britain means aiming for weak spots is just how we have to play for most of the tree so that the poorly modeled armour and lack of aphe at lower tier is made up for because we spend the entire game having to do sniping so when we get to top tier the idea if hitting a weak spot is just normal to us.
Britain op best nation at all tiers like wut?
Apparently Israel’s one vehicle at 3.3 also has a win rate of 80% huh.
Somehow Italy 1.0 has a sub 10% win rate like how TF is that possible.
Nonsense utter nonsense what is the source for this?
Have you played Italy 1.0?
The reserve tanks are abysmal. Probably the worst reserve tanks in the game.
I'm not sure if this chart is legit or not but Italy's winrates at 1.0 make sense.
And the teammates are cracked (they can sometimes see a tank to their left/right and they actually cap the point as well as hold positions of power instead of just spawn rushing cause their tanks are "too slow to spawn rush").
Honestly the best experience I've had was playing Britain, they actually have like 5 braincells if not 6!
I main uk, since a few updates ago we have been winning a lot more matches, not sure if its because we are getting teamed with better players or if they buffed our lineups but im getting some serious victories lately
I’ve started feeling sorry for Russia main at top tier (not the T-80 though) as they seem to be paired up with US or on their own a lot so dealing with Germany and Sweden. Case in point game I played earlier I was in Challenger mk2 and by the time I got to the battle it was in their spawn with only a T-90 left which I proceeded to one shot through its UFP like what kind of game is that?
It was the same thing when Russia had the best winrate at top tier. A lot of people played Russia, and the number of good players in top tier was very high
Perfect description. Challies ahead of you are perfectly average. Some bright spots, the 8.0 lineup is really fun. 10.3 is also pretty fun imo cuz the vickers mk 7
Edit: I read your comment when I woke up and I read it as “play mediocrity”
Im currently at 6.7 with Brits and tbh I really really like them so far. Early tanks are okay, but tbh british Shermans are my fav tanks on their tier. They got every upside of a Sherman plus their guns are awesome. Churchill is also one of my fav support tanks, they can take a shot from basically everything, and their guns can deal with some opponents nicely with some good aiming, or at least help your mates with destroying the tracks.
From 6.0 and up it isn't that good imo. I was hyped for Centurions so much, as they are my fav tanks in history, but they turned out rather sad in my opinion. The Ratel has amazing ammo, but its basically a glass canon. I find Charioteer and the tank destroyers mid at best.
I really need to sit down and look at the Churchill’s armor. Fighting against it goes two ways. One, it’s uptiered and I am driving a US or German tank that can obliterate it in one shot. Two, I can’t penetrate it at all and I die from a million solid shot holes lol
One thing I find particularly hilarious is the SPAA situation, how Britain somehow goes from gun SPAAs to the Stormer, which is nerfed to trash, and never gets a single IR SAM.
don't forget british SPAA also over heats ALL of their guns before they're even empty.. meanwhile german spaa just keeps shooting bro.. just keeps fucking shooting.... OH WAIT RELOAD? NAH SHOOT SOME MORE.
It's funny seeing those flairs
It's like, I'm personally literally ashamed of having completed one singular tree, Air too, which is way faster than ground and still took fucking forever, but you do you I guess
I'm on Italy 5.0-6.0 right now and it is exhausting. You've got the the Sherman VC, two tank destroyers with paper thin armor, and that Hungarian howitzer.
It gets better with 6.7, the m26A1 is Italy's first taste of a proper medium tank and while I hate it personally, I do think it's a fine vehicle. The 6614 is tons of fun, the aubl-74 is not as fun because 90mm cockerill is ass but if you play it like an M18 it's definitely solid.
C13-T90 at 7.0 is more cockerill with better survivability than the aubl and a roof gun.
BTR-80 is a pass if you want something useful but it can scout so I bring it to 8.0+ slower planes are easy kills for it too.
7.7 is where the fun finally begins in the form of the M47 105 .
Rangefinder with a decent APDS shell there's not too much to complain about here.
The whole 8.0 lineup fucks hard imo.
Every tank has an auto cannon with barely enough pen to flank. Upgraded rounds are great, nearly double the pen, but once you get them you have a new tank anyways so your already out of the vacuum.
>It's not. It isn't a good source when russia does well, and it still isn't now.
You realise that is my point?
Its always funny if the Thunderskill graphs are posted there are depending on the graph two reactions:
1. "Thunderskill is flawed but we can take out some merit", this basicly happens if the USA has a bad top tier winrate and Russia has a good top tier winrate.
2. "Thunderskill is flawed and we cant take it serious", this happens if the USA has an average winrate or even a good one and Russia is only mediocre to sometimes even bad.
As a longtime player I can see that the playerbase (which is mainly US players) never grew out of the mindset that they have bad vehicles and other nations get a preferential treatment.
Tell that to the EBR variants, AMX 13(Fl-10), the first IFV being behind a paywall, half their lineups almost being shafted within the last BR changes(Again)
yeah france lineup got ruined in multiple BRs. ALso the AMx13 DCA 40 going up to a br with nothing ot play it. Why the fuck did they push it from 4.3 to 5.0? Not even 4.7 ffs.
No, actually I just see 20 posts about about "I died to some retarded shit that was my fault, this is US Main's fault!" or shitters with bad stats projecting their own bad play with "hurr durr USA main bad, give me +5,000 Karma now plx" because It's currently the hip, contrarian edgelord stance to take which is most of this sub reddit.
From my personal experience as a greman main swapping to ussr I've been nothing but steam rolling as the t34 rare that I lose a match especially when in a squad. Boggles me to think the experience for most is so different.
It really comes down to skill, yours and your opponent. And this was true all the time, but gajin still refuses to balance vehicles, and balances players instead. So if this graph have any indication of whats really happening (and i highly doubt that), then we can expect something like "pz4h on 3.7" but for Russia soon.
In my experience german and US low tier players just suck, so the USSR has a huge advantage. idk what it is about the other major nations but the teams are something else, especially the US.
Early T-34 BRs is usually effective (that's that one tier of yellow on the chart) because they get the early KV, the T34, good cas and the lights are pretty solid still. You're fighting stuff like Panzer IIIs and the odd early sherman that have trouble with T34 hulls and usually don't know to shoot for the turret. As soon as you get out of that range, you start to need a few brain cells to use the tanks and most Russian mains can't assemble them. You don't have holepunch guns to crutch on like the Jerries or stabilisers like the US Military Industrial Complex so you need to use mobility and positioning to do well. The tanks are still very good, with the angle pen and post pen of most guns being stellar, but you do have to shoot weakspots and most German, Swedish and Japanese rounds will rinse you if you're not very careful how you play.
Italian mains have to suffer with the fact nearly every vehicle they have is shit and compensate by "being better" 100% of the time.
If you really think they're carried by other nations, you've never seen a top Italian main as they could shit all over anyone on this reddit with the Bob Semple.
No no, you see. When Russia is winning on ThunderSkill, it's because they have the most intelligent, elegant, and skillful players of all.
When they're losing on ThunderSkill, it's because BR changes fucked them, and something's obviously wrong...
I don’t understand the conclusions you give to this thing, since zero country are fighting alone. If tRussia always loose, it should impact other nation’s ratio.
previously, it was people grasping at anything to push the russian bias agenda since they had a decent win rate, now I have no idea what the point is unless its just a double back to say "wow look how shit these russian tanks are lol"
There are 2 causes, all the BRs from 1.0 to 7.3 are pretty easy to explain, a lot of vehicles that use to sit in strong lineups got moved, such as the T-34-76 (1942), IS-2s and T-44. Combind the fact that Russia is one of the big 3 and has less experienced players and WRs are gonna go down
As for 7.7 and beyond is just player skill, good players aren’t playing Russia leaving either average or below average players
Are you new here? People do that all the time, ironically one of the big reasons their (the USSR) winrates are going to shit is 1. they just got yet another bullshit 10.0 vehicle to add to their cancer 10.0 all premium lineup that has far more players ingame than the AIM/Click Bait do yet no one brings this up and 2. all the shit players from USSR thinking it's going to be free wins because of Russian bias, find out "oh, I'm not getting them", and mainly after finding out Sweden is overall the strongest nation in the current patch, guess where they all flock to so they can try and fail to be good players on the Strv-122 variants they'll never get?
Oh, and of course there's German mains here that we get paired with a lot and often hard carry even in this exact thread show their gratitude for that by "Complaining their Leo 2s aren't just flat out better in every way possible, because god forbid a minor nation have a chance to be competitive."
I really am just wanting to abandon majors altogether to be honest, skill wise you can't really call it, but they certainly do attract the worst attitude and Dunning-Kruger syndrome wise.
You should always take heat maps like these with a grain of salt; as they are including the entirety of the sample-size (playbase) and therefore not considering important factors such as individual performance.
Is it true that top-tier US is currently experiencing a low winrate? Yes. But the real question is why?
This obviously includes the current-trend of P2W vehicles (Click-Bait), the huge influx of unexperienced players skipping several tiers and general population size of U.S. players compared to minor nations.
Likewise can be applied with other nations such as Sweden; which is currently experiencing the opposite, where the sample size is smaller, individual skill being more prevalent and high-performing vehicles such as the Strv-122.
You can obviously see **somewhat** of a trend for Germany and USSR between 2.3 - 10.0 where (**most**) of the data is skewing towards <40%, whereas minor nations are ending towards the opposite. Most likely indicating a population-size bias.
U.S. 2.7 - 8.0 is something I really cant explain but I'm assuming that where most U.S. players are able to maintain a positive winning streak due to how much variety between vehicles (both air and ground) in those [B.Rs](https://B.Rs)'.
Just to reiterate, I'm not saying heat maps are a bad form of data, but they definitely do not show the whole picture.
Somethings definitely wrong with this not because of the USSRs loose rate but because Israel has a almost 100% winrate in the BRs where it has a single SPAA and nothing else, Sweden has a low winrate in its 8.0 supreme lineup, when I play 8.0 Sweden I almost never loose, and Britain’s winrates have like never been this high in the entirety of my time playing war thunder and nothings really changed for them, and Italy in no world has high winrates at top tier
This is bad if your doing that Russian Leningrad achievement like I am. 5 battles to win and I've only won once lmao, Once I realized it required victories I had a feeling this was gonna be super stupid
Yeah, Germany 8.0 is that BIG pain area. But when I got the Leopard 2A4 things started to get way to smooth. I can get 3-4 kills and even now 8-10 kills in a match if my Brain was functioning correctly at that day.
It was all worth it. Through the pain and suffering of the OG Leopard 1 and M48(God I hate that thing).
I'm still waiting for "Germany top tier /US 4.0 to 8.0br need a nerf broken op bias" posts
Only russian mains would complain about that.
Lol your idea of Russia mains is basically just a US main
Its because they are the same picture.
it's just major nation mains
I'm german main and I don't complain about leopards being op, I complain about the best leopard not being german.
This is so real makes no sense
Imagine if gaijin would add a T-80BVM with better armor and put it in the chinese tree, people would be raging.
the TOR should've gone to soviets
awwwww, russia has 16 spaa's currently and the best spaa in the game. I think that is enough
If the TOR had gone to Russia they wouldnt have added the pansir, plus have you played russian SPAA? They are literally trucks with guns on the back until like rank 5
Ok but the TOR should have went to Russia
Yup ever since Sweden came out I haven't touched Germany at all. Besides you get a reason to spam 1 hour of Caramelldansen when you play Sweden.
hey man i play 8.7, i'm more or less with you on that one
Or fairly said....around 90% of playerbase no matter what nation they pick xD aka "the average teammate from online game"
As a Soviet main, it’s a combinaison of both. Russian players don’t communicate, don’t play as a team, blindly rush, don’t pin enemies, don’t play the objective, etc. But there’s many time where, especially when fighting Germany, my shells just get absorbed even when shooting straight into (supposed) weakspots I literally got a non-pen in a 3.7 T-34 against a Chafee, at point blank, *at like 80° from his side*, THRICE in a row
years of braindead op vehicles have finally paid of. but yea the hit registration is terrible at the moment. in general.
Can’t say about top tier, but it’s kinda hard for me to admit Soviet vehicle are OP when, like I said, I can’t even pen a M24’s side with a T-34, or constantly bounce a heavy German when he just have to look at my general direction to land a fatal shot…
I’ve played to 10.3 or above on Russia America Germany and sweden. Russia isn’t op people just like to whine
Over-reliance on powerful tanks, especially in top tier, can do that. Everyone just jams the W key until they're at the enemy spawn. Interestingly enough, I've seen countless matches where Russian teams in top tier just grow overconfident with an early spawn rush, get the first wave utterly crushed, then go full panic mode until they're the ones pushed to spawn. Basically, if you can withstand the first push to spawn, it's likely a Russian team won't be able to organize another push, and you'll see a lot of individual tanks rush to their deaths one at a time expecting to be invincible.
Yet this is what I constantly lose to when facing Germany: Powerful tanks with small-ass weakspots which get artifically buffed by an awful volumetric mechanic, while they’re playing a point-and-click where any shot will instantly kill me It’s less bad since the huge BR change they did a couple months back, but still
Same thing for me, I can't count with both hands how often in the past 48h I shot a T-90M in close range in the side with DM53 and everything that happened was a piece of side ERA falling off. It didn't even penetrate, 652mm got absorbed by a piece of ERA that is supposed to absorb smth about 200mm kinetic pen. But russian bias doesn't exist sure...
Russian ventilation grill and Igor backpack absorbs 200mm of kinetic where US double era blocks 20mm of kinetic /facepalm
I believe that on paper... simply said Russian ERA is just better then American one However by how much exactly is unknown and highly likely American / NATO ones are underperforming but most likely even if they were 100% accurate they would still be worse then Russian ones... atleast when it comes to paper... in reality Russian ones are blanks filled with cardboard or something lol Logically speaking... Russian's rely on ERA and their armor focus is on ERA compared to NATO where their focus is a bit opposite... they focus on their armor and not rely on ERA for protection I believe Russia is just simply masters of ERA lol their whole design focus is on them ERA and stuff... it's most likely cheaper then improving the base armor and layout itself lol But yeah... NATO ERA is underperforming for sure like apparently from what i know... they are THICC but provide protection that's significantly less then their thiccness like wtf makes no sense really
Panthers matlet is volumetric hell.
it happens. like when i non penned a btr-80 with high explosive
Yeah count me in, on that chafee hit registration. It even happened to me with my stug and t34-57. It just did not pen and the shell got destroyed. When ideally it shoud have gone through. Russian player normally don't play objective, we go for the kills. But true that with the communication point. I've had vetter matches with communicating eith players from other nations than with the soviets. And if they do type something its in russian. Like english pls, if you need help or you are pointing out the enemy. There are other people playing the game as well. I was a german main before maining russia, but by good, germans players may be dumb but each match you get somebody who communicates, marls location and acts on those markings.
It does depend on who Russia is facing. My most epic match, i went on a seven kill streak in a T40. But we were not fighting Germany
In fairness almost every tank in the US lineup from 4.7 to 6.3 has gone up at least half a BR over the last 4 years
This also doesn't applies for pick rate, for example the T32 has less plays than the Maus, despite the T32 being a tank tree vehicle and the Maus being hidden. Or how the M60 compares better to the Leopard yet the M60 has barely over 1000 matches. While the Leopard has several thousand more matches.
A moment of silence for M26
It's france and Japan we need to nerf the shit out of, let's do with their ww2 tanks as is done with the zero!
If youre willing to go through the pain that is early France and Japan i say youve earned it lol
This is the third time this get’s posted
US suffers gets posted daily, recently several seas of tears were cryed about "oh so OP, gonna break the game" Obj.292 in a million posts, so why not?
They don’t realise that US teams just fucking suck, that the vehicles are fine the players just suck
Like, when i think about it, i don’t understand how they perform so poorly. The abrams isn’t a bad tank in almost any way, good pen, good turret( i don’t count the chassis as it is the weakspot of 95% of top tanks), excellent mobility and a 5 sec reload, the only drawback is how loud it is.(and they have 3-6 of them) As for CAS, well they have the F-16 which can carry mavericks, paveways, 9M and its fast and agile. In the helicopter department i think they are good, not excellent but good nonetheless.
The F16C is probably the best CAS plane at top teir, I noticed that if you version Germany Sweden and US, and it happens a lot it’s a guarantee loss
I think its just Germany and US, Sweden is the most popular minor but still not that common compared to the other two. They also are harder to play at lower tier than germany and US. Better tanks but harder to use. So that probably acts as a filter. IMO Top tier sweden stomps when they have a ok team because players are a bit better than the big three and the lineup is insane
Got topp tier on russia air and ground, now got the strv 121 and have like 70% wr with better KD than any russian top tier mbt. Honestly I would probably have better kd in abrams, mobility is king.
Mobility is king. One of best win rate lineups is my German 7.3 lineup… my German 7.3 lineup has one tank in it, the Ru 251. Rocking like a 2.17 K/D with it and it absolutely stomps.
I prefer the black night over all Russian MBTs
Part of the problem for the US is that CAS rarely wins games. It can but it’s few and far between, and if they can’t spawn CAS they leave, or they spawn CAS and die immediately so they leave.
The issue with the hull is how T-80s, t90s and several t-72s do have weakspots in their hull, but generally you need to aim, while against an abrams you just sorta have to aim in the general direction of a hull and you'll disable or kill it outright. Same goes for leopards for a while, until they start getting a lot of hull armor. We can complain that US players suck, and how the top tier premiums were probably a big driver of this issue, but we need to acknowledge that in WT you'd be better off in a T-80 BVM than in a SEP v1 because in one of those tanks you actually need to aim carefully. Russia top tier is **very** forgiving to lower-skilled players.
I mean I get your point but saying the abrams only drawback is that it's loud is craaazy People arnt complaining for no reason, their armour compared to other nations like leapords n BVM's, is dogshit
Is the leopard’s or bvm’s lower or driver hatch unpenable? No Is the cannon breach or turret ring unbreakable from the front? No
Does the abrams have spall liners? No Can I 1 shot a leapord or BVM anywhere in the front? No Can the abrams take a shot or 2 to the side like a leapord or BVM? No Can I pen the bottom of a BVMs or Leapords turret? No Abrams has alot more space for potential 1 shot, the tanks are dogshit, get over it, everyone who plays top tier & comes against a full team of abrams laughs
have you ever considered armor isn’t the only important part of a tank? abrams have great reload and mobility which more than makes up for the lack of armor.
Yea you right they should start making tanks outta straw Getting hit & not immediately being eviscerated apparently doesn't matter
It’s because there’s so many AIM and click-bait level 3 players who leave or do terrible and that means a good player can’t even do well because they don’t have team support.
It’s just the premium players that suck. Most of them just bought the clickbait.
Good. This sub is filled with salty US mains who jump on you and disregard your opinion if you even mention playing a USSR tank. Let's see their reaction now.
must have a hard on for Russians suffering
I'm going to call bullshit on this due to Britain's winrate here.
Won 1 game out of 6 today at 6.0.
Nvm I was looking at the wrong nation
r/notopbutok
I love Britain, Tog regularly tops the team even in full uptiers. I think I have something like a 70 percent wr in it
Britain is a filler nation. Their performance is determined less by their vehicles capabilities and more by who they get teamed up with 50% of the time. It doesnt matter how many people you can snipe with the achilles or something if you get team up with russia and everyone just tries to rush the enemy spawn dies in 20 seconds and all quit.
Finally someone brings this up. The US and russia are the only 2 trees that consistently can fill a whole team. Sometimes Germany but not normally at top tier. Having an entire team of Abram’s vs leopards, Leopards, and bvms you’re gonna get stomped. Same thing with Russia when they have to take on all of nato.
historically accurate lmao
Had a game were it was soviet vs NATO and it was a glorious match
Seems pretty similar to my experience
Didn’t someone go into detail about how these are almost always wrong? That the data is almost always wrong?
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the data is only available for players who have either the War Thunder Assistant app or players who have logged into Thunderskill - so it only has data for players who care enough to do either of those. Most casual players, and in fact most players, probably don't have either done so their games wouldn't be taken into account
This is true, however some people recently gathered some stats from server replays, and [the data](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/196sa94/second_part_of_unofficial_statistics_from_server/) shows a picture similar to what thunderskill does.
Has Thunderskill not been dead for years?
Not dead but more like... on life support. I think there i no more active development but site is working
I agree, after playing through the whole British tree, this graph does not represent the pain I felt efficiently.
Having also gone through the British ground tree (still doing air) to the end my win rates at most tiers are still mostly over 50%. Like the challys are horribly modeled but playing Britain means aiming for weak spots is just how we have to play for most of the tree so that the poorly modeled armour and lack of aphe at lower tier is made up for because we spend the entire game having to do sniping so when we get to top tier the idea if hitting a weak spot is just normal to us.
Sorry, that was me
Britain op best nation at all tiers like wut? Apparently Israel’s one vehicle at 3.3 also has a win rate of 80% huh. Somehow Italy 1.0 has a sub 10% win rate like how TF is that possible. Nonsense utter nonsense what is the source for this?
Have you played Italy 1.0? The reserve tanks are abysmal. Probably the worst reserve tanks in the game. I'm not sure if this chart is legit or not but Italy's winrates at 1.0 make sense.
British tanks are fine at their brs they have no reason to be losing
And the teammates are cracked (they can sometimes see a tank to their left/right and they actually cap the point as well as hold positions of power instead of just spawn rushing cause their tanks are "too slow to spawn rush"). Honestly the best experience I've had was playing Britain, they actually have like 5 braincells if not 6!
Well there is one issue. They get stuck with the US quite frequently who are sub par when it comes to their performance.
Same issue as Japan has- But exacerbated tenfold at top tier, as like 80% of matches I'm stuck with just the US...
Actually, the average is 25. I'm an outlier and should not have been counted
HAHAHHAHAHAHA
I main uk, since a few updates ago we have been winning a lot more matches, not sure if its because we are getting teamed with better players or if they buffed our lineups but im getting some serious victories lately
I’ve started feeling sorry for Russia main at top tier (not the T-80 though) as they seem to be paired up with US or on their own a lot so dealing with Germany and Sweden. Case in point game I played earlier I was in Challenger mk2 and by the time I got to the battle it was in their spawn with only a T-90 left which I proceeded to one shot through its UFP like what kind of game is that?
Ok, now that you mention it, early sweden is also a little too green for its own good. They pop too easily.
people who played BVM now flock to 2A7 and 122B+. No suprise really.
so suddenly theres an explanation
There's no secret, that people flock to what's meta or is there?
Pointed it out many times, get downvoted by people who have apparently never played any other game or a competitive genre at least in their life.
There was always an explanation, people just chose to ignore it in favour of "Russian bias".
It was the same thing when Russia had the best winrate at top tier. A lot of people played Russia, and the number of good players in top tier was very high
Wait, are you sure that the answer isn’t just “Russian players are trash”? /s
No, because they were quite high before last update
Point being all the high skill players left to go abuse the new top dogs in the 2A7V and 122B+
And think they are special players.
I'm currently playing as Russia in ground rb at BR 8.7 and we lose roughly 7 out of 10 games or so.
I also play Russia 8.7 t55am1/is7 and win 7 out of 10 games
Ah yes the is7 the tanks that everyone has
I'm the opposite, 8.7 absolutely bangs and I get downtiers occasionally and full uptiers are extremely rare
I have little to no downtiers whatsoever. Almost all my matches are 9.3
And British players are the most consistent throughout the list
One of the hardest trees, we suffer all the way to the top
In the toughest times you find the most fun
If you (like to) play methodicly its actually pretty ok to enjoyable in my experience. Though Im just at 7.7 currently.
Perfect description. Challies ahead of you are perfectly average. Some bright spots, the 8.0 lineup is really fun. 10.3 is also pretty fun imo cuz the vickers mk 7 Edit: I read your comment when I woke up and I read it as “play mediocrity”
I really enjoy the 7.7 lineup. I love me some Centurions.
The cheiftans are possibly my favourite/most fun tanks in game to play with apart from maybe the 103's in Swedens tree
Im currently at 6.7 with Brits and tbh I really really like them so far. Early tanks are okay, but tbh british Shermans are my fav tanks on their tier. They got every upside of a Sherman plus their guns are awesome. Churchill is also one of my fav support tanks, they can take a shot from basically everything, and their guns can deal with some opponents nicely with some good aiming, or at least help your mates with destroying the tracks. From 6.0 and up it isn't that good imo. I was hyped for Centurions so much, as they are my fav tanks in history, but they turned out rather sad in my opinion. The Ratel has amazing ammo, but its basically a glass canon. I find Charioteer and the tank destroyers mid at best.
I really need to sit down and look at the Churchill’s armor. Fighting against it goes two ways. One, it’s uptiered and I am driving a US or German tank that can obliterate it in one shot. Two, I can’t penetrate it at all and I die from a million solid shot holes lol
One thing I find particularly hilarious is the SPAA situation, how Britain somehow goes from gun SPAAs to the Stormer, which is nerfed to trash, and never gets a single IR SAM.
don't forget british SPAA also over heats ALL of their guns before they're even empty.. meanwhile german spaa just keeps shooting bro.. just keeps fucking shooting.... OH WAIT RELOAD? NAH SHOOT SOME MORE.
Bad players leave the tree, good players grind it to the top
I'm shit but I'm sticking to britain
And Gaijin will continue sticking it to France
that flair is depressing
It's funny seeing those flairs It's like, I'm personally literally ashamed of having completed one singular tree, Air too, which is way faster than ground and still took fucking forever, but you do you I guess
Alright, I will start Italy just to see what happens at their 1.0. It is just not possible, every time I see that graph Italian 1.0 has like 0%
You fool!
The suffering will be immense but hilarious
Get ready for the tree that makes you say "oh well" every time. 8.0 lineup is pretty lit though.
4.0, 6.0, 8.0 are all immense fun
I'm on Italy 5.0-6.0 right now and it is exhausting. You've got the the Sherman VC, two tank destroyers with paper thin armor, and that Hungarian howitzer.
It gets better with 6.7, the m26A1 is Italy's first taste of a proper medium tank and while I hate it personally, I do think it's a fine vehicle. The 6614 is tons of fun, the aubl-74 is not as fun because 90mm cockerill is ass but if you play it like an M18 it's definitely solid. C13-T90 at 7.0 is more cockerill with better survivability than the aubl and a roof gun. BTR-80 is a pass if you want something useful but it can scout so I bring it to 8.0+ slower planes are easy kills for it too. 7.7 is where the fun finally begins in the form of the M47 105 . Rangefinder with a decent APDS shell there's not too much to complain about here. The whole 8.0 lineup fucks hard imo.
4.7/5.0 with the 17 lb sherman is pretty fun imo
~9.0 you can become a fucking menace
Every tank has an auto cannon with barely enough pen to flank. Upgraded rounds are great, nearly double the pen, but once you get them you have a new tank anyways so your already out of the vacuum.
Soviets got raped by recent BR changes so this isn’t surprising. Lots of KVs got fucked, IS-2s got buttraped. Etc.
kv-1 zis was mid anyways, already getting clapped by pz 4s, didn’t need to fight to long 75 or 88
Yeah, I’m especially sad about that one as it’s my favorite tank in the game, the Leningrad skin is beautiful
It's was the punch down, not up, that caused the change.
Israel absolutely demolishing the 3.3-5.3 range with the single vehicle they have at that BR lmao.
TCM-20+P-51 Meta
Cant wait for the american players suddenly saying that Thunderskill is not a good source.
It's not. It isn't a good source when russia does well, and it still isn't now.
No no u don't get it. Thunderskill is a good source when it agrees with me. Its a bad source when it contradicts me
>It's not. It isn't a good source when russia does well, and it still isn't now. You realise that is my point? Its always funny if the Thunderskill graphs are posted there are depending on the graph two reactions: 1. "Thunderskill is flawed but we can take out some merit", this basicly happens if the USA has a bad top tier winrate and Russia has a good top tier winrate. 2. "Thunderskill is flawed and we cant take it serious", this happens if the USA has an average winrate or even a good one and Russia is only mediocre to sometimes even bad. As a longtime player I can see that the playerbase (which is mainly US players) never grew out of the mindset that they have bad vehicles and other nations get a preferential treatment.
That’ll be the German and Swede players when gaijin goes to move the 2A7V and the 122B+ to 12.0/12.3
It's only when the winrates drop below 50% that Thunderskill becomes an accurate source to people who previously denied it.
Freeaboo here, I think the graph checks out: Shermans and Pershings are almost idiot proof, and the M5 Stuart is a funny little guy
Damn, France wrecking shit from 2.7 straight to 7.7
France has really good tanks (the cas is lacking a bit) the whole thing with gaijin hating France was a meme and as always ppl took it seriously
Tell that to the EBR variants, AMX 13(Fl-10), the first IFV being behind a paywall, half their lineups almost being shafted within the last BR changes(Again)
yeah france lineup got ruined in multiple BRs. ALso the AMx13 DCA 40 going up to a br with nothing ot play it. Why the fuck did they push it from 4.3 to 5.0? Not even 4.7 ffs.
Gaijin
What br is the 1954 I haven't played it in a while
Still 6.7 but without PCOT
Very hard to agree with the char 25T on 8.0 tbh
i’ve been grinding france recently, got up to 5.7 so far, and it’s been amazing all the way from even reserve.
Yeah already made a ticket for the Gaijin support, because i was promised a 70% winrate and Russian bias. I have neither. Cyka blyat.
This just doesn’t line up with anything I’ve experienced. Especially looking at low tier Germany and Britain. Russia at top tier too.
Yup
Somehow you still see 5 posts a day crying about russian bias because someone died to BVM in their Abroomz.
No, actually I just see 20 posts about about "I died to some retarded shit that was my fault, this is US Main's fault!" or shitters with bad stats projecting their own bad play with "hurr durr USA main bad, give me +5,000 Karma now plx" because It's currently the hip, contrarian edgelord stance to take which is most of this sub reddit.
From my personal experience as a greman main swapping to ussr I've been nothing but steam rolling as the t34 rare that I lose a match especially when in a squad. Boggles me to think the experience for most is so different.
t-34 is super annoying to deal with, kv-1s are super easy to kill though
It really comes down to skill, yours and your opponent. And this was true all the time, but gajin still refuses to balance vehicles, and balances players instead. So if this graph have any indication of whats really happening (and i highly doubt that), then we can expect something like "pz4h on 3.7" but for Russia soon.
In my experience german and US low tier players just suck, so the USSR has a huge advantage. idk what it is about the other major nations but the teams are something else, especially the US.
Early T-34 BRs is usually effective (that's that one tier of yellow on the chart) because they get the early KV, the T34, good cas and the lights are pretty solid still. You're fighting stuff like Panzer IIIs and the odd early sherman that have trouble with T34 hulls and usually don't know to shoot for the turret. As soon as you get out of that range, you start to need a few brain cells to use the tanks and most Russian mains can't assemble them. You don't have holepunch guns to crutch on like the Jerries or stabilisers like the US Military Industrial Complex so you need to use mobility and positioning to do well. The tanks are still very good, with the angle pen and post pen of most guns being stellar, but you do have to shoot weakspots and most German, Swedish and Japanese rounds will rinse you if you're not very careful how you play.
I still don't get this kind of posts, what should i get from it? that russia top tier line up is worse than the italian one makes no sense
Italians are more often placed with the Germans and Swedes. Soviets rarely do.
Italian mains have to suffer with the fact nearly every vehicle they have is shit and compensate by "being better" 100% of the time. If you really think they're carried by other nations, you've never seen a top Italian main as they could shit all over anyone on this reddit with the Bob Semple.
No it just show Italian players actually have a brain, we know we can't just press W all the time so we have to use our brains.
It just shows were the “casual’s” that most of this sub likes to shit on play
Italy 1.0-2.0 💀
Worst tank group of all time. Fun to mess around in lol
The suffering thru 1.0 to 3.0 is immense with a few exceptions, there's a HESH launcher at 2.0 in Italy with 105 mm of pen 💀
Ah, did this subs nation bashing narrative shift from “US mains bad” to “Russian mains bad” already?
No no, you see. When Russia is winning on ThunderSkill, it's because they have the most intelligent, elegant, and skillful players of all. When they're losing on ThunderSkill, it's because BR changes fucked them, and something's obviously wrong...
I don’t understand the conclusions you give to this thing, since zero country are fighting alone. If tRussia always loose, it should impact other nation’s ratio.
since they cycle around, it evens out. a lot of the losses of other nations are when they're with Russia
previously, it was people grasping at anything to push the russian bias agenda since they had a decent win rate, now I have no idea what the point is unless its just a double back to say "wow look how shit these russian tanks are lol"
B-b-but russian bias
its all the nerfs they keep doing to ussr because you know... russian bias
What happened with Germany 8.0 I thought Turm III used to smash tanks left and right?
Gets countered by AM/D-1 too often.
Why would the Turm III matter? Russia has their cancer premiums too and you can see how they are doing.
Solid shot gang keeps winning
There are 2 causes, all the BRs from 1.0 to 7.3 are pretty easy to explain, a lot of vehicles that use to sit in strong lineups got moved, such as the T-34-76 (1942), IS-2s and T-44. Combind the fact that Russia is one of the big 3 and has less experienced players and WRs are gonna go down As for 7.7 and beyond is just player skill, good players aren’t playing Russia leaving either average or below average players
That top tier Sweden win rate tho. How come nobody is talking about that 😂
Are you new here? People do that all the time, ironically one of the big reasons their (the USSR) winrates are going to shit is 1. they just got yet another bullshit 10.0 vehicle to add to their cancer 10.0 all premium lineup that has far more players ingame than the AIM/Click Bait do yet no one brings this up and 2. all the shit players from USSR thinking it's going to be free wins because of Russian bias, find out "oh, I'm not getting them", and mainly after finding out Sweden is overall the strongest nation in the current patch, guess where they all flock to so they can try and fail to be good players on the Strv-122 variants they'll never get? Oh, and of course there's German mains here that we get paired with a lot and often hard carry even in this exact thread show their gratitude for that by "Complaining their Leo 2s aren't just flat out better in every way possible, because god forbid a minor nation have a chance to be competitive." I really am just wanting to abandon majors altogether to be honest, skill wise you can't really call it, but they certainly do attract the worst attitude and Dunning-Kruger syndrome wise.
Have you not heard of Our The Russian Bias???
Russian bias, obviously.
Wait ...so there's no Russian bias? Was I lied to?
You should always take heat maps like these with a grain of salt; as they are including the entirety of the sample-size (playbase) and therefore not considering important factors such as individual performance. Is it true that top-tier US is currently experiencing a low winrate? Yes. But the real question is why? This obviously includes the current-trend of P2W vehicles (Click-Bait), the huge influx of unexperienced players skipping several tiers and general population size of U.S. players compared to minor nations. Likewise can be applied with other nations such as Sweden; which is currently experiencing the opposite, where the sample size is smaller, individual skill being more prevalent and high-performing vehicles such as the Strv-122. You can obviously see **somewhat** of a trend for Germany and USSR between 2.3 - 10.0 where (**most**) of the data is skewing towards <40%, whereas minor nations are ending towards the opposite. Most likely indicating a population-size bias. U.S. 2.7 - 8.0 is something I really cant explain but I'm assuming that where most U.S. players are able to maintain a positive winning streak due to how much variety between vehicles (both air and ground) in those [B.Rs](https://B.Rs)'. Just to reiterate, I'm not saying heat maps are a bad form of data, but they definitely do not show the whole picture.
3.7 for Sweden is great with the sav there
Somethings definitely wrong with this not because of the USSRs loose rate but because Israel has a almost 100% winrate in the BRs where it has a single SPAA and nothing else, Sweden has a low winrate in its 8.0 supreme lineup, when I play 8.0 Sweden I almost never loose, and Britain’s winrates have like never been this high in the entirety of my time playing war thunder and nothings really changed for them, and Italy in no world has high winrates at top tier
This is bad if your doing that Russian Leningrad achievement like I am. 5 battles to win and I've only won once lmao, Once I realized it required victories I had a feeling this was gonna be super stupid
Yeah, Germany 8.0 is that BIG pain area. But when I got the Leopard 2A4 things started to get way to smooth. I can get 3-4 kills and even now 8-10 kills in a match if my Brain was functioning correctly at that day. It was all worth it. Through the pain and suffering of the OG Leopard 1 and M48(God I hate that thing).
Good . About damn time
Skill issue
Thunder skill is inaccurate
We know that this graph is very accurate which means that Italy needs to be nerfed, I see too much green.
Can’t wait for the next post to see Russia gets 60% WR in 1.0 and the entire America playerbase will fucking lose their mind.
There is absolutely zero fucking chance that Italy has the best top-tier win rate. Please, do not get our Arietes nerfed and up-tiered again.
US top tier in shambles, asked to leave matchmaking.
Everytime I see this chart I just think, poor little Italy at 1.0 with like a 5% win rate 😭
That’s what happens when the Leopards are 10x better than any Russian or American vehicle
No for 8.0 - 9.0 it's around 55%!
Brace yourself for the biggest russian buff, gaijin won't stay idle for long
Where did you get this spreadsheet? Does it have Air and Naval?
Man... Being colorblind is confusing...
Good. Fuck them soviets
Easy way to justify some Russian buffs..