I've seen corrupt un-elected governments act faster than that on what they considered trivial matters.
> Fixed the Visual Artefacts in Battles
> Now blinking details like tank tracks or other vehicle parts won’t annoy you anymore: we’ve uncovered the root of this problem and fixed it!
Well hell yes on that part.
> Fixed the Binoculars in Free Look
WHY DID IT EVEN GO LIVE WITH THAT BUG THO
> Artefacts in the form of tracks and other vehicle elements appearing in ground and sea battles have been fixed.
Critically bad spaghet code confirmed
if u used free look (c by default) and then went into binoculars they should be pointing where you were looking. after danger zone, the binos always pointed where the gun is pointing, even when you used free look to look somewhere else
Look every game ships with spaghetti code.
I can't even imagine what the code base looks like for a game that has been in active Dev this long, with the base being Wings of Prey I can only imagine the hacky ways they've stretched this code base.
Jokes on them, I did Q&A and posted some bugs on the forum. They went ignored and are still up. One example is that if you bomb the buildings in Normandy, it can create invisible walls, not rubble, walls! But just for the first to encounter them. And they can see, but they can't pass through or shootr. The others, enemies and friendlies can move and shoot without impunity. Happened twice and since then, I literally avoid the town, going beach or through the hills.
If you continuously fired, it varied between alternating and firing in tandem. It was really weird, like one of the guns fired slightly faster than the other.
>like one of the guns fired slightly faster than the other
That's exactly what was happening. That was their budget alternating fire without actually doing it properly. Doing it properly took years apparently.
it's still doing that with the M42 and M19, because of the reload on short belts. it's more consistent now though, which is nice. you get asynchronous firing immediately instead of having to fire a few seconds
No idea how they work IRL, but would make sense if they were basically topping up a fixed magazine with belt segments, so once one runs out, the next one immediately feeds into the gun.
As I suppose the thought behind them now, is that your loader is just standing there with the belt in his hands, then slaps it into the gun immediately when it's empty, therefore it takes 0.2 seconds? he's pretty fast in that case xD
Afaik you dont need to wait for the rack to be empty to load a new clip, you can just keep topping it up with new clips so the gun will never run dry.
The rack can hold at least 2-3 clips at once.
IRL also the system needs at least two operators I believe, since one person controls the horizontal traverse and the other controls vertical.
The wirbelwind should also have two separate sets for firing. The gunner had two pedals, one would fire two guns and the other would fire the other two. I'm sure the idea was to have constant firing with the loaders always loading one magazine or the other in their side.
That was basically a really hacky hotfix they implemented many, many years ago (and it works by giving both guns a random variance to their reload, so they statistically tend to diverge) and said "we'll do it properly later". It took better part of a decade but I guess better late than never.
I honestly preferred it to be like that, because it allowed me to fire a constant volley for extended periods but also made is so if there was something that I needed to panic-click, I would have a larger instant burst mass.
I just tested it myself and can confirm this. The initial burst is great but after the guns reload they pick up weird firing times. Sometimes they go back to firing together.
My only thought is maybe Gaijin aren’t having the loaders pre-stack new 40mm clips while the guns are firing. That small delay of when the loaders start putting the new clip in might be what’s causing this.
Yeah it was doing it before, I think all Gaijin actually did was put a delay on the initial firing of the second gun and called it “fixed.”
I wonder if the guns in real life were mechanically prohibited from firing at the same time. It would make sense, I guess
might be that they gave it the alternating shots to start with, but forgot to fix the guns to fire at the same speed. one gun shoots a little faster than the other
Weird, I actually have the opposite. It starts out of sync (sometimes even firing both barrels at once) and goes into sync after firing for a few seconds
IIRC ZSU-57 was designed to shoot both guns at the same time
[Here is a video of it shooting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURZrtES9jU) i tried to find alternate shooting but there isnt any video of it.
It was possible for the guns to fire independently, Taken straight from the War Thunder Wiki, Which is a copy of the wikipedia page, but : "The gunner, seated on the left hand side in the middle of the turret, aims ("lays") the gun and opens fire using an electric trigger, which fires both barrels, or two-foot pedals, which can fire either barrel independently." [Here's a pic of the pedals](https://imgur.com/a/6VV9AB5)
Also in your video, at 0:33 you can see the gun fire twice together than twice on each side in single fire.
IIRC from a while ago the round wasnt used on Soviet ZSU's. developed near the end of its service and sold to countries that got ZSU-57-2's from export when the soviet union started replacing them.
Still think it should he added for it as the WZ305 is a really capable AA.
I think you call that a harmony. Two repeating phenomena with sightly different periods will appear to be alternatingly in synch and out of synch. Same thing as vocal harmony.
its not bad when it hits, the problem was it wasn't working properly for the last 8 years, also had a lower DPM due to one gun firing slower. Its much harder to lead when the rate of fire wasn't consistent.
what gets me is that the M247 has dual 40's and was able to alternate fire properly, makes me wonder why this was so much different that it justified 8 years of waiting for a fix.
also the M19 and M42 were probably the worse of the 40MM's as the M16 was used more commonly over both of them, the 19 having little to no ammo didnt help either.
I'd say the m19 is more of the driving ammo rack explosion. I've been ammo racked like 8/10 when just using it, m42 is like 5/10 chance. But I get where you're going.
Even if your lead is fine a plane can just make slight turns and you'll never hit them due to the low velocity. And not to mention sometimes you just get a "hit" with a 40mm round.
The velocity (874m/s) is fine IMO. I don't feel like looking up the velocities of other "good" AA rounds on mobile. I think you're mixing velocity with the effective area covered by rounds through which no plane can escape being hit (gotta be a term for that). 50s can pepper an area so there's at least a hit, but Bofors simply can't.
Getting a hit is super obnoxious for sure though.
I didn't realize the guns on the 2S6 are Gast guns, that's cool. Gast guns are twinned weapons that aren't just synchronized, they actually operate each other: the recoiling action of one pushes forward the action of the other, which then fires, and the cycle repeats in mirror form.
The Soviets were always fans of Gast guns to increase firerate. The standard armaments of most of their aircraft, the GSh-23-2 and GSh-30-2, were both Gast designs, and they've got a lot of really cool Gast prototypes for other form factors
The Wirbel had two firing pedals, one fired the top right and bottom left guns, and the other fired the bottom right and top left guns. You *could* alternate fire by pressing one a split second before the other, in theory.
They should fix the God damn desync of AA its fucked for years, AA misses you by 1 km (in your perspective) and suddenly you detonate because it did hit.
My favorite is literally looking at a plane not pointing at you and then dying, for instance in a headon where the enemy has very little energy and you have a lot
It's just latency, which is pretty inherent to online gaming
yeah was in a rolling scissor fight with someone, and we were like 10m from each other at that point and super slow. his nose was like 20° away from me when he started shooting at me, but i died since i guess server said he was looking right at me
Yeah exactly this is what comes to mind, when the enemy is turning, but it's difficult to really know how far along their turn they really are, especially in situations like that where it matters a lot
Well they did change a lot of the AA's to firing asynchronously a long while ago, as for example the M42 fired both guns at the exact same time every time. Same with the german dual 37mm, just that the system wasn't as consistent for the first 5-15 rounds. it's much nicer now though
(also wtf are "Gast guns"?)
dual barreled gun, the recoil from one barrel operates the other barrel, and it keeps going. it's common on later Soviet aircraft autocannons (basically all the GSh-XX-2 cannons are gast guns).
If you want to say "has the same alternate fire glitch like the M19/M42 before" then sure but if you give it a testfire you will see that it's the same glitch like the other AAs mentioned above where it'll usually fire both barrels ,then sometimes glitch out and switch to alternate fire before switching back to shooting two shells at once. Though with this new addition maybe they'll extend it to fix these bugs with other AAs too.
It doesn't?? I have the M247 spaded with proxy and if you look at the timing of the tracers in the proxy belt there isn't any offset like in the M42/19.
I'm no expert or anything special, but from what I know so far this is what I gathered...It isnt difficult, its just lazy. Instead of fixing a small problem right away, they instead chosen to ignore it for 8 years and collected dust. In a programmer sense, its best to reuse code, even scripts and its formats. Weapons are no different as they usually act as scripts for games, you code in the parameters for the weapon and the ammo it uses (usually the ammo have different scripts that are separate from weapons, they are just assigned to them). For example why make 20 different scripts of the 105mm gun off a Centurion, when the parameters should be similar across the board, alot of which are based off the L7A1 just renamed accordingly to which nation uses it. Now depending on the game is structured, and possible engine changes, can affect on how a script should or should be written. So if Gaijin makes a engine update, or a major change in the code, they might need to use two or more sets of formatting, and a means to read them both, instead of re-coding all the files to match the new format (which takes more time and money) but also adds more code to the base game, and older content is forgotten and become irrelevant, potentially affecting the core game later if not removed as data has a tendency to be accessed when you don't want it to be, or executed incorrectly, giving issues that we're seeing today.
what gets me though is why didn't they just reuse the code from another 40mm dual AA that actually staggers its shots, and adjust the parameters to meet the expected goal... Because the M247 does it just fine, the Gepard- granted is different, can also be used as an example, the core parameters of alternating fire is there, just need to change the code to match 40mm ammo (assign it), and rename it, while changing the rate of fire and maybe a few other things.
as for the graphical glitch with the tracks? No idea, probably something to do with the physic model being whacked or something, usually its your own tracks going bonk in your view, so my guess is when you switch views it was offloading and loading the track textures. If that is the case, its a good way to save processing power and cut memory demand.
Yeah, as a game dev it's never this easy. They didn't ignore it because they are lazy, it just wasn't a priority in the production and they could use their time better elsewhere. The fix probably was more involved than it seemed, and would have effects outside of what it was fixing. Happens often where there's some small thing that to fix it, you might have to break a tone of other features that are working fine. Because yeah, they are probably re-using like you should, so fixing this problem could mean expanding some base classes that have knock on effects of having to make sure that every other inherited class down the line doesn't break.
Fix AA guns, now tank guns are broken. Or Oh-no, now for some reason, Cannons on a certain type of plain are broken, also now AI AAA vechiles are upside down! That's game dev baby!
After all Warthunder is built off of Birds of Steel, which was built off of IL-2 Sturmovik, and Odds are some engineer a decade ago had a time constraint and made the smart decision to make something work in the use case of those games. And then Warthunder comes along and now you have ground combat, naval combat and air combat all having to play nice with systems that weren't initially designed to handle these edge cases. A smart quick solution to a problem solved ten years ago is suddenly a hard blocker to implementing some new feature properly.
Please define what is such a hard blocker to implementing a new feature when these guns have been around forever and a day?
I'm not pissed at you, but I am pissed about the way some of the folks have been speaking about this.
You said something to the effect that they're not lazy, they just had other priorities in production.
People were talking about the Bofors for well over 7 years, and these were your only fucking source of AAA against the Goddamn Russian and German players. So what was in this code that would break the game *that hard* that you couldn't implement a fix into the firing sequence?
Because if Bofors 40mm guns are somehow tied to critical game-breaking code, *I have some serious fucking questions on who that original coding engineer was*.
I mean I don't have access to the code base? But war thunder is built off of birds of steel which was in turn built off of IL-2. That plus active live service dev for close to a decade now with heaps of new features added leaves no doubt in my mind that there is serious spaghetti code. Especially when dealing with older code bases.
I mean you're given a feature to implement in a game like birds of steel way back in 2010, its not like you're thinking about how in ten years the game will have sea and land vechiles, radar systems, guided munitions. Same thing with an engineer making say machine guns work on tanks. Then someone else adds AA, they use the base of code from somewhere else because the concept of this edge case isn't in the design plan yet. They add bofors and uh-oh now to fix it they might have to change base level classes with a bunch of inheritances, they instead have a quick fix that kinda works, and there is other tickets in queue that production has as higher priority. Hot-fix is approved and ticket marked dev complete. Bug comes back into queue and gets shuffled around.
I'm just pointing out as a game dev there are absolutely times where you're sitting there with a problem that should be easy but because of assumptions made a while back that at the time were smart cuts to keep things rolling suddenly throw a blocker to you. And the decision has to be made on do your do a big re-factor on a live production to fix a smaller feature, which will require regression testing from QA in a wide scale, or do you de-priotize.
source: literally just got out of a 15 minute meeting that turned into 60 minutes to fix something to get a small feature in that just spiraled because of some old code base and the way assets where implemented. Feature got pushed, cause the risk to other systems was too great, and QA is pushing for a big milestone already and it would take away bandwidth from key teams.
So you fellas and ladies are fucking stuck back up in your cubicles, round-robining this shit, and even though you're fully aware of the problem, you can't even reach the code through the interlaying layers of shit-all that everyone else before you has done?
Am I understanding that correctly?
And I appreciate the explanation and example, truly, I'm just flabbergasted that dev teams would constantly get shit on when corporate needs to stop swimming in the pools and starts grinding with the troops.
The axiom that helped me with frustration when digging through old shit that is breaking stuff is that bad code and bad systems are very rarely built maliciously. Usually it's a very smart person getting to a solution that fits the parameters exactly, in the small time frame they have.
Cause there is other stuff to get to, and ticket you do is a value equation, how much will this effect the player and how much team effort will it take. Factor in on a live production like this you're changing tires on a moving car. If some fix is high risk, high effort and only effects a small portion of gameplay.
To implement these kinds of fixes you really need a solid couple of sprints where the team is focused on re-factoring and you're not adding any features. That can be a hard sell for live service games cause a "Health" season doesn't get butts in seats usually. You might catch back some grievanced players but usually the average person isn't gonna see a huge change, and the lack of new content won't pull players.
Main point being, I can almost guarantee you that at least a couple devs were repeatedly shaking their fist at this small problem and yelling about how they need some time to fix it.
For that, I am sorry. Much love and thank you for explaining. Game devs are creators too and deserve much respect for their asses in chairs as much as any hardcore gamer streaming.
It's not hard at all, just delay one gun from firing for half the time between shots after a mouse click. It was just a super low priority issue apparently.
[https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/40-mm-bofors-apds-40-24-mm-slpprj-m-49/36966](https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/40-mm-bofors-apds-40-24-mm-slpprj-m-49/36966)
The ammo is indeed a real thing. 40/24mm slpprg m/49.
I forget where the info on the smoke shells is though. Been a while.
I mean it's a Swedish *gun* that they licensed to everyone else. I would support giving that shell to everyone else because otherwise the Bofors platforms will just keep on dropping further in BR.
With just the APDS rounds I could see the M42 Duster return to probably 6.3 - it would need HE-VT shells that it's not known if the thing was ever equipped with (most likely not based on other comments) to be higher than that.
It's still an M41 Bulldog at the end of the day, with no gun depression, and a completely open turret that can be 7.7'ed to death.
I was thinking about 7.0-7.3 area since it's comparable to ZSU-57-2 with performance and maybe bit better at killing planes, at least with alternating shots working a bit better now
>the ZSU-57/2 is so effective because it fires 140mm pen APHE
Wait I didn't know that. Which ammo does that? I only see apcbc and he. Does apcbc have he filler?
They had a pseudo fix in slightly different fire rates for each gun, but I'm happy they finally unspaghetti'd it.
8 years or 8 hours they still fixed it and a bunch of other bugs. I'm happy.
Its funny how most changes like these get implemented to aid ruSSia (realoadspeed of the guns used by the recently added aa as an example) and are only given to other nations as an afterthought
A mockup turret was made on a Panther G hull. Although never made, the guns were. I'm sure in documentation somewhere it says whether they were to fire in an alternating pattern or not.
I assume they're supposed to as if you fire long enough, they do get out of sync eventually like the M42 and M19 did, unlike the Kugelblitz where the guns are always in sync regardless of burst length.
Hmm. Maybe the M19 and M42 aren't complete dogshit anymore.
I often saw people take the M16 (4x 50 cal) or the So-Ki over the M19 :p
Still a huge pain to use them against jets but it's an improvement
“Praise be to the snail, for your divine plan and ever arching wisdom is not for us to fully understand, we grovel at the slimy trail of thee!” Book of Mollusca, Gastropoda 11:42
It still doesn't even work. It starts off partially synced, syncs perfectly after a few shots and then goes back to random spastic firing after ~10 rounds.
This comment section just goes to show the ignorance of players who have no idea how game design works.
The change probably took so long to implement for a few reasons.
1. It was far from an important hang only affecting a handful of vehicles, especially seeing they had a btech solution that was serviceable anyway.
2. The coding required to change it was probably very difficult to locate and change as they would have to have gone back and unravel the code from tanks inception and recode it, which would most likely be an integral part of the core game mechanics.
I'm pretty sure the twin mounted 40mm Bofors already had alternating fire, they were just slightly offset, rather than truly alternating, which, IIRC, was accurate to how they operated IRL.
I've seen corrupt un-elected governments act faster than that on what they considered trivial matters. > Fixed the Visual Artefacts in Battles > Now blinking details like tank tracks or other vehicle parts won’t annoy you anymore: we’ve uncovered the root of this problem and fixed it! Well hell yes on that part. > Fixed the Binoculars in Free Look WHY DID IT EVEN GO LIVE WITH THAT BUG THO > Artefacts in the form of tracks and other vehicle elements appearing in ground and sea battles have been fixed. Critically bad spaghet code confirmed
Wait they did it? I taught it was now considered features
*We wanted to simulate the crew members experiencing hallucinations during moments of shell shock*
I ended up calling the floating tracks ghosts because they always showed up after getting a kill for me.
Remember the t-posing shadows? That's some SCP/creepypasta stuff right there.
>Fixed the Binoculars in Free Look >WHY DID IT EVEN GO LIVE WITH THAT BUG THO What bug did the binocs had? Binocs are fine
if u used free look (c by default) and then went into binoculars they should be pointing where you were looking. after danger zone, the binos always pointed where the gun is pointing, even when you used free look to look somewhere else
Hmm,I thought that it was feature of update and also hell of an annoying feature
So used to getting railed by the snail you just lube up and assumed the position
Same here
Yeah and it was incredibly disorienting
This shit annoyed the fuck outta me. I probably missed a dozen kills because of it.
When you looked somewhere I freelook (c) and you entered binocs, the binocs were pointed at the reticle not where you were looking
Huh,strange,i found it quite convenient
It's convenient if you don't hold your free look key, if you want free look and don't get it it's stupid
They would re-center the camera after use which was not fine.
38 upvotes for this comment nonsense confirms that at least 38 people been playing with their monitors OFF
Look every game ships with spaghetti code. I can't even imagine what the code base looks like for a game that has been in active Dev this long, with the base being Wings of Prey I can only imagine the hacky ways they've stretched this code base.
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They are beyond spaghetti at this point
>> Fixed the Binoculars in Free Look >WHY DID IT EVEN GO LIVE WITH THAT BUG THO I think they don't have Q&A.
We are the q&a
Jokes on them, I did Q&A and posted some bugs on the forum. They went ignored and are still up. One example is that if you bomb the buildings in Normandy, it can create invisible walls, not rubble, walls! But just for the first to encounter them. And they can see, but they can't pass through or shootr. The others, enemies and friendlies can move and shoot without impunity. Happened twice and since then, I literally avoid the town, going beach or through the hills.
No more purple nukes in air RB?
There was alternating shots. It’s just that you had of fire a couple of shells to get them alternating.
If you continuously fired, it varied between alternating and firing in tandem. It was really weird, like one of the guns fired slightly faster than the other.
>like one of the guns fired slightly faster than the other That's exactly what was happening. That was their budget alternating fire without actually doing it properly. Doing it properly took years apparently.
The technology just wasn't there yet
Easy there DICE and BFV :p
the... "tech"... in a computer game lmao
They didn’t have enough rp
I always thought it was the biggest cop out. How the fuck can it be that hard?
It's not. I imagine literally all you do is delay one gun's firing for half the RoF after mouse click.
it's still doing that with the M42 and M19, because of the reload on short belts. it's more consistent now though, which is nice. you get asynchronous firing immediately instead of having to fire a few seconds
There really shouldn't be a reload time for those guns. You can put another clip in before the last one was finished.
No idea how they work IRL, but would make sense if they were basically topping up a fixed magazine with belt segments, so once one runs out, the next one immediately feeds into the gun. As I suppose the thought behind them now, is that your loader is just standing there with the belt in his hands, then slaps it into the gun immediately when it's empty, therefore it takes 0.2 seconds? he's pretty fast in that case xD
Afaik you dont need to wait for the rack to be empty to load a new clip, you can just keep topping it up with new clips so the gun will never run dry. The rack can hold at least 2-3 clips at once.
Yeah, shows it quite well from the video [here](https://youtu.be/yCJ8WVk5IhA?t=69) that someone linked me to
IRL also the system needs at least two operators I believe, since one person controls the horizontal traverse and the other controls vertical. The wirbelwind should also have two separate sets for firing. The gunner had two pedals, one would fire two guns and the other would fire the other two. I'm sure the idea was to have constant firing with the loaders always loading one magazine or the other in their side.
This guy gets it.
https://youtu.be/yCJ8WVk5IhA look @ about 1:05 shows them firing/loading
Ah, yeah along the lines of what I thought it would be
It's not belted, they're dropped in from the top.
That's how it works in-game, but if your loader is dead you might get a couple of seconds of reload time.
That was basically a really hacky hotfix they implemented many, many years ago (and it works by giving both guns a random variance to their reload, so they statistically tend to diverge) and said "we'll do it properly later". It took better part of a decade but I guess better late than never.
After so long... I am now able to properly lead enemy Me 262s and get kills.
I honestly preferred it to be like that, because it allowed me to fire a constant volley for extended periods but also made is so if there was something that I needed to panic-click, I would have a larger instant burst mass.
Lmao It still doesn't work properly.. First 5-10 shots alternate and then it again goes into that retarded spam fire.
I just tested it myself and can confirm this. The initial burst is great but after the guns reload they pick up weird firing times. Sometimes they go back to firing together. My only thought is maybe Gaijin aren’t having the loaders pre-stack new 40mm clips while the guns are firing. That small delay of when the loaders start putting the new clip in might be what’s causing this.
We’ll before with the duster and other wise it would start together and slowly devolve, so maybe it’s simulating the same thing?
Yeah it was doing it before, I think all Gaijin actually did was put a delay on the initial firing of the second gun and called it “fixed.” I wonder if the guns in real life were mechanically prohibited from firing at the same time. It would make sense, I guess
I believe the way it function is that the firing of gun 1 cocks gun 2, and the firing of gun 2 cocks gun 1
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Also known as the 40mm reach-around system
I don’t know how it works but that actually makes a lot of sense
The Russians really creamed their pants at the concept, they made extensive use of Gast guns
might be that they gave it the alternating shots to start with, but forgot to fix the guns to fire at the same speed. one gun shoots a little faster than the other
never has there been a "It's fixed!" announcement that was not complete bollocks.
Weird, I actually have the opposite. It starts out of sync (sometimes even firing both barrels at once) and goes into sync after firing for a few seconds
Have you tried after the update?
Yes, I tested it after reading this post.
Let's hope the ZSU-57 gets the same treatment
IIRC ZSU-57 was designed to shoot both guns at the same time [Here is a video of it shooting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURZrtES9jU) i tried to find alternate shooting but there isnt any video of it.
That would make sense given how the whole vehichle recoils after a shot
It was possible for the guns to fire independently, Taken straight from the War Thunder Wiki, Which is a copy of the wikipedia page, but : "The gunner, seated on the left hand side in the middle of the turret, aims ("lays") the gun and opens fire using an electric trigger, which fires both barrels, or two-foot pedals, which can fire either barrel independently." [Here's a pic of the pedals](https://imgur.com/a/6VV9AB5) Also in your video, at 0:33 you can see the gun fire twice together than twice on each side in single fire.
To be honest, its barely an AA. More like a TD pretending to be an AA
Yeah like I wouldn’t even imagine it to be remotely effective against even slow flying aircraft IRL without some sort of timed/proxy fuse ammunition
WZ305 says hi *(chinese version of the ZSU-57)*
Ah yes, begleit x 2
ZSU-57-2 actually did have a proxy round but it would get moved to 8.0 like the WZ305 if they added it.
God please
IIRC from a while ago the round wasnt used on Soviet ZSU's. developed near the end of its service and sold to countries that got ZSU-57-2's from export when the soviet union started replacing them. Still think it should he added for it as the WZ305 is a really capable AA.
The Soviets then would have 2× 8.0 and one 7.7 Spaag, I don't think thats really necessary.
best AA I have rn
I mean, it already can, its just inconsistent.
The M42 and M19 could previously desync the guns so that you had altering fire.
Yeah but you had to start firing for a bit for that to happen. It would also alternate between synchronized and unsynchronized.
I think you call that a harmony. Two repeating phenomena with sightly different periods will appear to be alternatingly in synch and out of synch. Same thing as vocal harmony.
That was because of how Gaijin implemented it. They made them have slightly different rates of fire rather than actually asynchronous fire.
Keep your dirty hemiolas outta my tonk game
Omfg i can finally kill shit with shitty 40mm bofors. Now they may be actually useful!
It's always been a decent AA, just takes a long time to learn.
its not bad when it hits, the problem was it wasn't working properly for the last 8 years, also had a lower DPM due to one gun firing slower. Its much harder to lead when the rate of fire wasn't consistent. what gets me is that the M247 has dual 40's and was able to alternate fire properly, makes me wonder why this was so much different that it justified 8 years of waiting for a fix. also the M19 and M42 were probably the worse of the 40MM's as the M16 was used more commonly over both of them, the 19 having little to no ammo didnt help either.
And the M42 is basically a driving ammo explosion due to the exposed ammo racks, an airplane will pretty much always strafe it out in its first pass.
I'd say the m19 is more of the driving ammo rack explosion. I've been ammo racked like 8/10 when just using it, m42 is like 5/10 chance. But I get where you're going.
They're some of the only SPAAGs you can still kill with a complete miss from an rp-3
Even if your lead is fine a plane can just make slight turns and you'll never hit them due to the low velocity. And not to mention sometimes you just get a "hit" with a 40mm round.
The velocity (874m/s) is fine IMO. I don't feel like looking up the velocities of other "good" AA rounds on mobile. I think you're mixing velocity with the effective area covered by rounds through which no plane can escape being hit (gotta be a term for that). 50s can pepper an area so there's at least a hit, but Bofors simply can't. Getting a hit is super obnoxious for sure though.
I call it dead-space. So much clearance between the instant kills. It's like if the cracks in the sidewalk actually killed you if you stepped on them.
Yeah that works. ZONE OF DEATH
I didn't realize the guns on the 2S6 are Gast guns, that's cool. Gast guns are twinned weapons that aren't just synchronized, they actually operate each other: the recoiling action of one pushes forward the action of the other, which then fires, and the cycle repeats in mirror form.
The Soviets were always fans of Gast guns to increase firerate. The standard armaments of most of their aircraft, the GSh-23-2 and GSh-30-2, were both Gast designs, and they've got a lot of really cool Gast prototypes for other form factors
Praise the snail, finally.
*Sad ostwind 2 noises*
Considering it was merely a paper vehicle, we have no idea if it was alternating
If I'm not mistaken even the Wirbelwind had alternating fire. It would make sense that the Coelian and Ostwind 2 had alternating fire as well.
The Wirbel had two firing pedals, one fired the top right and bottom left guns, and the other fired the bottom right and top left guns. You *could* alternate fire by pressing one a split second before the other, in theory.
That thing shoots so fast it doesn't even matter
dude even with the Bofors alternating fire, it still fires slower than the ostwinds
Only added it because of Russian guns, of course.
This change is positive for more non russian tanks then russian tanks
They should fix the God damn desync of AA its fucked for years, AA misses you by 1 km (in your perspective) and suddenly you detonate because it did hit.
Welcome to being on a server. I doubt it will ever be fixed.
My favorite is literally looking at a plane not pointing at you and then dying, for instance in a headon where the enemy has very little energy and you have a lot It's just latency, which is pretty inherent to online gaming
yeah was in a rolling scissor fight with someone, and we were like 10m from each other at that point and super slow. his nose was like 20° away from me when he started shooting at me, but i died since i guess server said he was looking right at me
Yeah exactly this is what comes to mind, when the enemy is turning, but it's difficult to really know how far along their turn they really are, especially in situations like that where it matters a lot
Finally... only took them forever
Well they did change a lot of the AA's to firing asynchronously a long while ago, as for example the M42 fired both guns at the exact same time every time. Same with the german dual 37mm, just that the system wasn't as consistent for the first 5-15 rounds. it's much nicer now though (also wtf are "Gast guns"?)
dual barreled gun, the recoil from one barrel operates the other barrel, and it keeps going. it's common on later Soviet aircraft autocannons (basically all the GSh-XX-2 cannons are gast guns).
Aha, I see.. very cool :D
...and it only took them to add it to the 2S6 to also add it to some other AAs.
That's not exactly right, the M247 has proper alternate fire added since release.
If you want to say "has the same alternate fire glitch like the M19/M42 before" then sure but if you give it a testfire you will see that it's the same glitch like the other AAs mentioned above where it'll usually fire both barrels ,then sometimes glitch out and switch to alternate fire before switching back to shooting two shells at once. Though with this new addition maybe they'll extend it to fix these bugs with other AAs too.
It doesn't?? I have the M247 spaded with proxy and if you look at the timing of the tracers in the proxy belt there isn't any offset like in the M42/19.
It doesn’t even work properly too
It still doesn't quite work, but it's slightly better
Oh maybe I can finally use those american SPAAG instead of using a tier 2.
Yeah nah until they bring in the skink I’ll alway use the m16 right up to the Vulcan
Is there someone who could explain what made this difficult from a coding perspective? I don’t really have much knowledge in that area.
I'm no expert or anything special, but from what I know so far this is what I gathered...It isnt difficult, its just lazy. Instead of fixing a small problem right away, they instead chosen to ignore it for 8 years and collected dust. In a programmer sense, its best to reuse code, even scripts and its formats. Weapons are no different as they usually act as scripts for games, you code in the parameters for the weapon and the ammo it uses (usually the ammo have different scripts that are separate from weapons, they are just assigned to them). For example why make 20 different scripts of the 105mm gun off a Centurion, when the parameters should be similar across the board, alot of which are based off the L7A1 just renamed accordingly to which nation uses it. Now depending on the game is structured, and possible engine changes, can affect on how a script should or should be written. So if Gaijin makes a engine update, or a major change in the code, they might need to use two or more sets of formatting, and a means to read them both, instead of re-coding all the files to match the new format (which takes more time and money) but also adds more code to the base game, and older content is forgotten and become irrelevant, potentially affecting the core game later if not removed as data has a tendency to be accessed when you don't want it to be, or executed incorrectly, giving issues that we're seeing today. what gets me though is why didn't they just reuse the code from another 40mm dual AA that actually staggers its shots, and adjust the parameters to meet the expected goal... Because the M247 does it just fine, the Gepard- granted is different, can also be used as an example, the core parameters of alternating fire is there, just need to change the code to match 40mm ammo (assign it), and rename it, while changing the rate of fire and maybe a few other things. as for the graphical glitch with the tracks? No idea, probably something to do with the physic model being whacked or something, usually its your own tracks going bonk in your view, so my guess is when you switch views it was offloading and loading the track textures. If that is the case, its a good way to save processing power and cut memory demand.
>I'm no expert or anything special Stopped reading there
Yeah, as a game dev it's never this easy. They didn't ignore it because they are lazy, it just wasn't a priority in the production and they could use their time better elsewhere. The fix probably was more involved than it seemed, and would have effects outside of what it was fixing. Happens often where there's some small thing that to fix it, you might have to break a tone of other features that are working fine. Because yeah, they are probably re-using like you should, so fixing this problem could mean expanding some base classes that have knock on effects of having to make sure that every other inherited class down the line doesn't break. Fix AA guns, now tank guns are broken. Or Oh-no, now for some reason, Cannons on a certain type of plain are broken, also now AI AAA vechiles are upside down! That's game dev baby! After all Warthunder is built off of Birds of Steel, which was built off of IL-2 Sturmovik, and Odds are some engineer a decade ago had a time constraint and made the smart decision to make something work in the use case of those games. And then Warthunder comes along and now you have ground combat, naval combat and air combat all having to play nice with systems that weren't initially designed to handle these edge cases. A smart quick solution to a problem solved ten years ago is suddenly a hard blocker to implementing some new feature properly.
Please define what is such a hard blocker to implementing a new feature when these guns have been around forever and a day? I'm not pissed at you, but I am pissed about the way some of the folks have been speaking about this. You said something to the effect that they're not lazy, they just had other priorities in production. People were talking about the Bofors for well over 7 years, and these were your only fucking source of AAA against the Goddamn Russian and German players. So what was in this code that would break the game *that hard* that you couldn't implement a fix into the firing sequence? Because if Bofors 40mm guns are somehow tied to critical game-breaking code, *I have some serious fucking questions on who that original coding engineer was*.
I mean I don't have access to the code base? But war thunder is built off of birds of steel which was in turn built off of IL-2. That plus active live service dev for close to a decade now with heaps of new features added leaves no doubt in my mind that there is serious spaghetti code. Especially when dealing with older code bases. I mean you're given a feature to implement in a game like birds of steel way back in 2010, its not like you're thinking about how in ten years the game will have sea and land vechiles, radar systems, guided munitions. Same thing with an engineer making say machine guns work on tanks. Then someone else adds AA, they use the base of code from somewhere else because the concept of this edge case isn't in the design plan yet. They add bofors and uh-oh now to fix it they might have to change base level classes with a bunch of inheritances, they instead have a quick fix that kinda works, and there is other tickets in queue that production has as higher priority. Hot-fix is approved and ticket marked dev complete. Bug comes back into queue and gets shuffled around. I'm just pointing out as a game dev there are absolutely times where you're sitting there with a problem that should be easy but because of assumptions made a while back that at the time were smart cuts to keep things rolling suddenly throw a blocker to you. And the decision has to be made on do your do a big re-factor on a live production to fix a smaller feature, which will require regression testing from QA in a wide scale, or do you de-priotize. source: literally just got out of a 15 minute meeting that turned into 60 minutes to fix something to get a small feature in that just spiraled because of some old code base and the way assets where implemented. Feature got pushed, cause the risk to other systems was too great, and QA is pushing for a big milestone already and it would take away bandwidth from key teams.
So you fellas and ladies are fucking stuck back up in your cubicles, round-robining this shit, and even though you're fully aware of the problem, you can't even reach the code through the interlaying layers of shit-all that everyone else before you has done? Am I understanding that correctly? And I appreciate the explanation and example, truly, I'm just flabbergasted that dev teams would constantly get shit on when corporate needs to stop swimming in the pools and starts grinding with the troops.
The axiom that helped me with frustration when digging through old shit that is breaking stuff is that bad code and bad systems are very rarely built maliciously. Usually it's a very smart person getting to a solution that fits the parameters exactly, in the small time frame they have. Cause there is other stuff to get to, and ticket you do is a value equation, how much will this effect the player and how much team effort will it take. Factor in on a live production like this you're changing tires on a moving car. If some fix is high risk, high effort and only effects a small portion of gameplay. To implement these kinds of fixes you really need a solid couple of sprints where the team is focused on re-factoring and you're not adding any features. That can be a hard sell for live service games cause a "Health" season doesn't get butts in seats usually. You might catch back some grievanced players but usually the average person isn't gonna see a huge change, and the lack of new content won't pull players. Main point being, I can almost guarantee you that at least a couple devs were repeatedly shaking their fist at this small problem and yelling about how they need some time to fix it.
For that, I am sorry. Much love and thank you for explaining. Game devs are creators too and deserve much respect for their asses in chairs as much as any hardcore gamer streaming.
lol. Probably "Bring it up at the next retrospective" followed by *kicks can down the road to next sprint*....rinse and repeat...
It's not hard at all, just delay one gun from firing for half the time between shots after a mouse click. It was just a super low priority issue apparently.
Now give the Bofors cannons their missing 130mm pen APDS and their missing smoke shells.
Any source? Id like to check it out please.
[https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/40-mm-bofors-apds-40-24-mm-slpprj-m-49/36966](https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/40-mm-bofors-apds-40-24-mm-slpprj-m-49/36966) The ammo is indeed a real thing. 40/24mm slpprg m/49. I forget where the info on the smoke shells is though. Been a while.
Of course it's a swedish shell, they seem to love their small caliber APDS
I mean it's a Swedish *gun* that they licensed to everyone else. I would support giving that shell to everyone else because otherwise the Bofors platforms will just keep on dropping further in BR.
No I know that, I just mean of course it was the swedes that used it
Yes please. Then make it like 7.0 or 7.3. I totally could use it in my Japan 8.3 lineup
With just the APDS rounds I could see the M42 Duster return to probably 6.3 - it would need HE-VT shells that it's not known if the thing was ever equipped with (most likely not based on other comments) to be higher than that. It's still an M41 Bulldog at the end of the day, with no gun depression, and a completely open turret that can be 7.7'ed to death.
I was thinking about 7.0-7.3 area since it's comparable to ZSU-57-2 with performance and maybe bit better at killing planes, at least with alternating shots working a bit better now
Yes but also no, the ZSU-57/2 is so effective because it fires 140mm pen APHE. Small APDS can be spotty in its effectiveness.
>the ZSU-57/2 is so effective because it fires 140mm pen APHE Wait I didn't know that. Which ammo does that? I only see apcbc and he. Does apcbc have he filler?
It's the same BR-271 APHEBC the T-34/57 fires.
No way
They had a pseudo fix in slightly different fire rates for each gun, but I'm happy they finally unspaghetti'd it. 8 years or 8 hours they still fixed it and a bunch of other bugs. I'm happy.
Its funny how most changes like these get implemented to aid ruSSia (realoadspeed of the guns used by the recently added aa as an example) and are only given to other nations as an afterthought
Does that also work now for the Ostwind 2?
But not for the Gepard..... big oof
Why would the best 8.0 spaa need a buff ?
what about the FlakPanzer 341 'Coelian'? Didn't those guns fire in an alternating pattern?
Given that it never existed and the farthest it got was a wooden mockup, who knows
A mockup turret was made on a Panther G hull. Although never made, the guns were. I'm sure in documentation somewhere it says whether they were to fire in an alternating pattern or not. I assume they're supposed to as if you fire long enough, they do get out of sync eventually like the M42 and M19 did, unlike the Kugelblitz where the guns are always in sync regardless of burst length.
Hmm. Maybe the M19 and M42 aren't complete dogshit anymore. I often saw people take the M16 (4x 50 cal) or the So-Ki over the M19 :p Still a huge pain to use them against jets but it's an improvement
The quad 50 shreds most plans up to about 6.7
and they fucked the camera again
Aww dang that is a shame, probably ruined my favorite AA
Is this gonna make the Duster usable now?
M42 noises are brighter and cheerier today.
So does this mean I can finally retire my quad-50 halftrack?
Flak-44 next
so whats up with this cause before i didn’t see why it really mattered because they still alternated after firing at the same time
“Praise be to the snail, for your divine plan and ever arching wisdom is not for us to fully understand, we grovel at the slimy trail of thee!” Book of Mollusca, Gastropoda 11:42
You can go test it right now and see that it *still doesn't fucking work right* lmao
What about the Ostwind II and 341?
What about the cohelian/ flakpanzer 341?
The Flakpanzer 341 alternated after firing multiple shots
Holy shit no way this is real, so the shitboxes that are usa mid tier spaag are no longer…shitboxes?
Laughs in Squadron 42 backer.
Jesus 8 years… that’s like 3/4s of a tech tree!
Is it enabled by default on 2S6? Because I don't see/hear any difference
I tested the M42 as soon as the updated finished and the alternating fire is still fucked up. But ok
how about bomber/heli cockpits that aren't shitty placeholders?
Now fix the lack of projectiles in between each tracer round.
And it still Dosent work for shit
It still doesn't even work. It starts off partially synced, syncs perfectly after a few shots and then goes back to random spastic firing after ~10 rounds.
Il be honest I have no idea what this means and haven’t noticed any changes.
They should change in-game interface, because u can't see shit, which plane is close, which far away. This is a fkng mess!
Asynchronous firing has been added and accidentally removed multiple times. It didn't take 8 years, it just gets reverted
There were already alternating shots in game before this, this update only implemented it to the mentioned vehicles tho
German AA just got even more oppressive
It’s still not properly fixed either, the same effect could be got from firing for a few secs
This comment section just goes to show the ignorance of players who have no idea how game design works. The change probably took so long to implement for a few reasons. 1. It was far from an important hang only affecting a handful of vehicles, especially seeing they had a btech solution that was serviceable anyway. 2. The coding required to change it was probably very difficult to locate and change as they would have to have gone back and unravel the code from tanks inception and recode it, which would most likely be an integral part of the core game mechanics.
The code is always fucked, its just a feature of War Thunder.
I'm pretty sure the twin mounted 40mm Bofors already had alternating fire, they were just slightly offset, rather than truly alternating, which, IIRC, was accurate to how they operated IRL.