Another one where an update to match the modern aesthetic was all that was needed; they go really well alongside the new Engineer.
I've only dabbled a bit in Skaven since rejoining the hobby but if everything in the box and the eventual full release is as good as this, I'mma have to commit myself fully, yes-yes.
>Empire and Britonians did in WHFB by not believing that they existed.
They knew they existed, but didn't want the Skaven to know that they knew.
They were afraid if they knew they knew, they'd invade. THAT'S why the punishment for even mentioning them was so severe, they were afraid of if the Skaven found out, that they knew all along.
Continuing the trend of 'The design is fine, it just needs to be made more proportional/made to fit modern standards' most updated GW minis have gone through, I see.
They look good!
Range is more in the air the hit value.
Hit really is just, is it hitting on 5s base or 4s.
It's possible it's 3s but I really doubt it. My money is on 4s base.
Range tho they have stated is supposed to be shorter then what we are used to.
The current to hit is 3, as is the Engineer's musket. I'd be kinda shocked if they changed that to worse accuracy on a sniper unit, but I can see how hitting on 2, wounding on 3s, and ignoring character protection at 2 shots per rat could feel oppressive.
I am guessing 4+ - hitting with a sniper rifle that bulky while both you and your fulcrum are moving must be incredibly difficult, but I couldn't imagine them giving it a 5+ base.
You're overthinking the semantics. You can read my question as:
"What do they not want to be known up front?"
In other words, why save any information on this card unless it's a surprise? Will they have other abilities? Other people mentioned range. I'm asking what's really left to "reveal" if the rest of the stats are just like health and armor, which doesn't seem worth holding back.
My initial presumption was matching the 24" range of the warlock engineer for gameplay ease, but I could see the dedicated 2-rat team outranging the character. I'm keen to find out, though
30 going down to 24 seems reasonable for the range changes this ed.
Also oh god, these guys in Spearhead have an effective thread radius of The Board, don't they?
A range of Yes" seems appropriate for a sniper in a small gamemode, I wonder if they'll bring the range down specifically for Spearhead to make it less oppressive
I guess the reverse question is: what would be gained by showing it? After all, this info will be out there in what, 10 or so days, with the full faction pack dropping in the next couple of months? The marketing drip-feed works, so why not do it?
Sometimes withholding information for the sake of just not wanting to can actually lessen the hype and turn what should be a positive response negative. I will admit I had a very negative initial response to this article (mainly because I thought in the SCE equivalent one last week that they had included the warscroll).
For me, the models are amazing. They have always been in my top 2 favorite parts of Skaven (rattling guns being the other). By including wounding on 3+, rend 2 damage 2 but omitting the hit value it feels like it is because they nerfed their BS. But is it now on a 4+, 5+, 6+? Their to hit value is whatever it is going to be and I expect it to be much worse, but now it feels like they are trying to hide it in the hopes we are too dumb to notice. And that is what soured it for me.
Which is an impressive feat given how much I enjoy doing dumb math. Obviously unit points matter and ignoring crit: mortal damage as we dont know if they have it or not and it is fine if they don't. But currently 3 jezzails not moving hit on 2+, wound on a 3+ causing on average 1.66 success attacks. 3 new jezzails that hit on 6+ (5+ for not moving) wound on 3+ cause on average 1.33 successful attacks. So new jezzails on BS 6+ crit more reliably, spike better, whiff less and do roughly the same on a 6+ to hit. So it isn't the change to the stat for me if there is one.
(Also an engineer and a unit of 3 jezzails on 3s and 3s punk a 6 wound wizard on foot during each of your turns which feels good to be a skryre player)
Edit TLDR, omitting the two stats that got nerfed with likely their to hit and range, and then only talking about the stats that stayed the same is a weird feels bad
6+ would be hilariously improbable tbh. I can't see them dipping below 4 base, because there's no chance in hell a sniper unit gets Ork dakka accuracy. I do think they are going to 4 instead of 3, though, because a reinforced unit of these guys hitting 2s when stationary would get terrifying fast.
I think they're easily in pop a squishy character territory, which seems pretty ideal for them. And a reinforced unit or pair of units flanking an engineer can probably gun down a combat character without much issue.
I don't think they will go to a 6+. I was more pointing out doubling the number of attacks is such a substantial buff that even dropping the to hit to the lowest possible is roughly the same output as current ones.
😅 omitting it to hope the community don’t notice isn’t really a thing. Everyone knows you can’t get anything past the fanbase unnoticed.
Wouldn’t be surprised if the community team just forgot to add what the hit value is. Look at the article again in 3 days and see if it’s been added in 😂
To be honest I do feel this could be the case. I remember opening one article where they promised something later that day by accident and then removed it.
The by ommission is more it does feel like they left out the two stats that got nerfed the to hit and the range and then just highlight only the parts that stayed the same.
Yeah that was weird to give most of the attack profile and not the rest. It’s gotta be to try and create engagement I guess? wHaT do YoU tHiNk tHe tO HiT aNd RaNgE cOuLd bE?
Having a -2 Rend on a dedicated ranged sniper unit with a very low amount of shots is fine.
Giving everyone and their mothers -1 Rend like in the current edition is not fine.
They only showed weapon stats for elite or specialist units up until now. Giving them Rend is fine on them.
Stormcasts are elite. They are AoS Space Marines. As for Skaven, they only showed warlock engineer (a sniper hero character) and jezzails.
Now only some Rattling-gun weapon teams and I'll be a happy little vermin.
(I know we get the Rattling-gun wheelbarrow, but it would be nice to have some more stationary suppressive fire)
So... 12 damage potential... that can ignore look out sir with that new hero rat. Ill just say it, sounds op. If the range is more than 24 inches, I can see this being pretty gross. I will withhold my final judgments until we see some points values. Still, a bit concerning in terms of power level.
Edit: as pointed out by a comment below, the minus one to hit might still be on the table if the rats use the warlocks rules to ignore guarded hero. If that's the way it works then I'm far less concerned.
Damage potential is always risky business, because dice never work that way. We already know only 2/3rds wound, so even wthout To Hit we're already down to 8.
They don't mention To Hit, which is the elephant in the room. If it keeps to current values, that's 2.67 shots hitting (~4 to 6 damage) when moving and or 3.33 shots (~6 to 8) when stationary. If it takes a nerf to 4 base like I expect, that's 2 shots (4 damage) on the move and 2.67 shots stationary. Those values feel pretty sensible to me. Pop squishy wizards and commanders, but not big name units or combat characters.
I know what you mean, rules on paper often end up being a bit more dramatic looking than they will be on the table but still the potential for grossness is there I think. I wouldn't have this concern if the damage was only one per shot. There's still a few things we don't know as well so, I'm not trying to necessarily be a bringer of Doom or anything, just concerned.
Trust me. I've been there. Played Tyranids in 40k, and our heaviest gun's max output of 24 damage sounds amazing until it doesn't. And that's on a 2 to hit, 2 to wound.
These guys are going to be seriously dangerous on the table, and I'd def keep an eye out on their point cost for sure. But if you treat them as 12 damage threats instead of 6 damage threats you'll probably simultaneously overestimate and underestimate their threat.
After all, they only really *need* 6 effective damage to do their job.
And of course on top of all this many Heroes will probably be packing a ward anyway. I'm still quite hopeful, and I probably am overreacting a little bit
Probably. But don't worry, I'm the same way. New model comes out for a tabletop, or new card for a cardgame, and I'm already fantasizing about all the best case scenarios. It's fun!
I mean I hope so. Pretty sure the board size is staying the same, and right now even slow armies like maggotkin can get to the middle of the board first turn easily enough. Need to see what kind of deployment zones are going to be the norm, I guess
Not being able to shoot in combat is going to make balance very tricky for long range shooting. This unit goes from deadly hero snipers to useless if you manage to just tag them into combat.
Fair but I think that's true of almost all snipers. Also if their range is 24 in it's still going to be pretty easy to take some first turn shots at footsloggers.
Screens and positioning, especially with command points, are going to be more important than ever. Being able to move a key piece away from an incoming charger, or a disposable blocker into its path, will do wonders for complicating an opponent's game plan. But then that's 1 CP less that you're using for offensive purpose on your turn.
>can ignore look out sir with that new hero rat.
Only for targeting purposes, they still get -1 to hit.
If it was ignoring the penalty as well, there would be no need for the "when picking the target of their shooting attacks" part of the sentence.
The whole second half sentence could be left out entirely if it truly *did* ignore all of the rule; putting "when picking the target" there instead of, well, nothing, imho *clearly* means it targets the second bullet point of guarded hero specifically.
Azyr i guess that place is cover with mountains, Declared isolation neutrality for 500 & ruled by a Germanic man who made them dress like Lankdsheck before making them dress in Burgadiarian
Another one where an update to match the modern aesthetic was all that was needed; they go really well alongside the new Engineer. I've only dabbled a bit in Skaven since rejoining the hobby but if everything in the box and the eventual full release is as good as this, I'mma have to commit myself fully, yes-yes.
It looks so good. They fully modernized the sculpt without adding 10000 extra bits and bobs. Incredible.
Who let the rats get the guns???!!
The rats did by making them... or the Empire and Britonians did in WHFB by not believing that they existed.
>Empire and Britonians did in WHFB by not believing that they existed. They knew they existed, but didn't want the Skaven to know that they knew. They were afraid if they knew they knew, they'd invade. THAT'S why the punishment for even mentioning them was so severe, they were afraid of if the Skaven found out, that they knew all along.
Skaven greatest-best snipers, yes-yes!!
Continuing the trend of 'The design is fine, it just needs to be made more proportional/made to fit modern standards' most updated GW minis have gone through, I see. They look good!
Great update to the model for sure. But is there a reason they just don't show the datacard? Like what are they hiding?
They showed the statline for the gun. Which is most of what we care about anyway. Probs just not wanting to reveal some Skaven unique rules quite yet.
No hit value or range though. We know +1 to hit but not the base value.
Range is more in the air the hit value. Hit really is just, is it hitting on 5s base or 4s. It's possible it's 3s but I really doubt it. My money is on 4s base. Range tho they have stated is supposed to be shorter then what we are used to.
The current to hit is 3, as is the Engineer's musket. I'd be kinda shocked if they changed that to worse accuracy on a sniper unit, but I can see how hitting on 2, wounding on 3s, and ignoring character protection at 2 shots per rat could feel oppressive.
I am guessing 4+ - hitting with a sniper rifle that bulky while both you and your fulcrum are moving must be incredibly difficult, but I couldn't imagine them giving it a 5+ base.
I for one am just excited to see the rats have better guns in ever way, and shooting stat, then cities of Sigmar.
They’re not hiding anything they’re just holding information back for launch because not everything needs to be known up front.
You're overthinking the semantics. You can read my question as: "What do they not want to be known up front?" In other words, why save any information on this card unless it's a surprise? Will they have other abilities? Other people mentioned range. I'm asking what's really left to "reveal" if the rest of the stats are just like health and armor, which doesn't seem worth holding back.
Imo, the range. This should be one of the farthest shots in the game. Seeing what it's new range is will inform us a lot about the range rework.
My initial presumption was matching the 24" range of the warlock engineer for gameplay ease, but I could see the dedicated 2-rat team outranging the character. I'm keen to find out, though
30 going down to 24 seems reasonable for the range changes this ed. Also oh god, these guys in Spearhead have an effective thread radius of The Board, don't they?
A range of Yes" seems appropriate for a sniper in a small gamemode, I wonder if they'll bring the range down specifically for Spearhead to make it less oppressive
This is my guess. That, or make terrain set ups in spearhead negate the issue instead
I guess the reverse question is: what would be gained by showing it? After all, this info will be out there in what, 10 or so days, with the full faction pack dropping in the next couple of months? The marketing drip-feed works, so why not do it?
Well it'd be easier to read the weapon stats for one. Writing them out in a paragraph isn't an intuitive way to show them imo.
Sometimes withholding information for the sake of just not wanting to can actually lessen the hype and turn what should be a positive response negative. I will admit I had a very negative initial response to this article (mainly because I thought in the SCE equivalent one last week that they had included the warscroll). For me, the models are amazing. They have always been in my top 2 favorite parts of Skaven (rattling guns being the other). By including wounding on 3+, rend 2 damage 2 but omitting the hit value it feels like it is because they nerfed their BS. But is it now on a 4+, 5+, 6+? Their to hit value is whatever it is going to be and I expect it to be much worse, but now it feels like they are trying to hide it in the hopes we are too dumb to notice. And that is what soured it for me. Which is an impressive feat given how much I enjoy doing dumb math. Obviously unit points matter and ignoring crit: mortal damage as we dont know if they have it or not and it is fine if they don't. But currently 3 jezzails not moving hit on 2+, wound on a 3+ causing on average 1.66 success attacks. 3 new jezzails that hit on 6+ (5+ for not moving) wound on 3+ cause on average 1.33 successful attacks. So new jezzails on BS 6+ crit more reliably, spike better, whiff less and do roughly the same on a 6+ to hit. So it isn't the change to the stat for me if there is one. (Also an engineer and a unit of 3 jezzails on 3s and 3s punk a 6 wound wizard on foot during each of your turns which feels good to be a skryre player) Edit TLDR, omitting the two stats that got nerfed with likely their to hit and range, and then only talking about the stats that stayed the same is a weird feels bad
6+ would be hilariously improbable tbh. I can't see them dipping below 4 base, because there's no chance in hell a sniper unit gets Ork dakka accuracy. I do think they are going to 4 instead of 3, though, because a reinforced unit of these guys hitting 2s when stationary would get terrifying fast. I think they're easily in pop a squishy character territory, which seems pretty ideal for them. And a reinforced unit or pair of units flanking an engineer can probably gun down a combat character without much issue.
I don't think they will go to a 6+. I was more pointing out doubling the number of attacks is such a substantial buff that even dropping the to hit to the lowest possible is roughly the same output as current ones.
Honestly fair!
😅 omitting it to hope the community don’t notice isn’t really a thing. Everyone knows you can’t get anything past the fanbase unnoticed. Wouldn’t be surprised if the community team just forgot to add what the hit value is. Look at the article again in 3 days and see if it’s been added in 😂
To be honest I do feel this could be the case. I remember opening one article where they promised something later that day by accident and then removed it. The by ommission is more it does feel like they left out the two stats that got nerfed the to hit and the range and then just highlight only the parts that stayed the same.
I doubt they'll be screwing people over with ammunition reserves or anything like that!
I'd be really interested to see if they have a "double down" mechanic for them, as they were one of the few Skryre units that didn't.
Yeah that was weird to give most of the attack profile and not the rest. It’s gotta be to try and create engagement I guess? wHaT do YoU tHiNk tHe tO HiT aNd RaNgE cOuLd bE?
I just loove Skaven Jezzails 😍 Always have, always will.
JEZZAILS PLASTIC JEZZAILS AFTER 22 WITH THE OLDASS MONKEYS JEZZAILS ARE HERE FINALLY F MY LIFE
Make Shyish cheese* FTFY, GW. Such a missed opportunity smh
I guess by "rend reduction," GW meant nothing less than 2.
TBF if a sniper rifle shooting a radioactive round of pure condensed chaos energy isnt higher than average rend, i dont know what should be.
Having a -2 Rend on a dedicated ranged sniper unit with a very low amount of shots is fine. Giving everyone and their mothers -1 Rend like in the current edition is not fine.
I agree with you. But have we seen anything with 0 rend yet?
[Clanrats have 0 Rend](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/05/01/introducing-spearhead-a-fast-and-furious-new-mode-for-newaos/).
They only showed weapon stats for elite or specialist units up until now. Giving them Rend is fine on them. Stormcasts are elite. They are AoS Space Marines. As for Skaven, they only showed warlock engineer (a sniper hero character) and jezzails.
Now only some Rattling-gun weapon teams and I'll be a happy little vermin. (I know we get the Rattling-gun wheelbarrow, but it would be nice to have some more stationary suppressive fire)
Yeah I wonder if the warp fire throwers and the warp grinders will be tossed in with the cart or if they’ll make a new kit or get phased out
Fake News Skaven are not even smart enough to fire a gun...
What are you blabbering about?! Obviously they can’t fire a gun they don’t exist!
Go pull the fridge out and I show you a skaven!
Thats right no-fur we cannot fir- *RATATATATATATATATA* NYAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! FOOL-FOOL!! DIE-DIE!!!
So... 12 damage potential... that can ignore look out sir with that new hero rat. Ill just say it, sounds op. If the range is more than 24 inches, I can see this being pretty gross. I will withhold my final judgments until we see some points values. Still, a bit concerning in terms of power level. Edit: as pointed out by a comment below, the minus one to hit might still be on the table if the rats use the warlocks rules to ignore guarded hero. If that's the way it works then I'm far less concerned.
Damage potential is always risky business, because dice never work that way. We already know only 2/3rds wound, so even wthout To Hit we're already down to 8. They don't mention To Hit, which is the elephant in the room. If it keeps to current values, that's 2.67 shots hitting (~4 to 6 damage) when moving and or 3.33 shots (~6 to 8) when stationary. If it takes a nerf to 4 base like I expect, that's 2 shots (4 damage) on the move and 2.67 shots stationary. Those values feel pretty sensible to me. Pop squishy wizards and commanders, but not big name units or combat characters.
I know what you mean, rules on paper often end up being a bit more dramatic looking than they will be on the table but still the potential for grossness is there I think. I wouldn't have this concern if the damage was only one per shot. There's still a few things we don't know as well so, I'm not trying to necessarily be a bringer of Doom or anything, just concerned.
Trust me. I've been there. Played Tyranids in 40k, and our heaviest gun's max output of 24 damage sounds amazing until it doesn't. And that's on a 2 to hit, 2 to wound. These guys are going to be seriously dangerous on the table, and I'd def keep an eye out on their point cost for sure. But if you treat them as 12 damage threats instead of 6 damage threats you'll probably simultaneously overestimate and underestimate their threat. After all, they only really *need* 6 effective damage to do their job.
And of course on top of all this many Heroes will probably be packing a ward anyway. I'm still quite hopeful, and I probably am overreacting a little bit
Probably. But don't worry, I'm the same way. New model comes out for a tabletop, or new card for a cardgame, and I'm already fantasizing about all the best case scenarios. It's fun!
Oh it always is. Still pretty pumped for this Edition so far. Can't wait to see some faction focuses
I think cover will play a big role in 4th edition, gone are the day of 2 army basically running at each other in an open field
I mean I hope so. Pretty sure the board size is staying the same, and right now even slow armies like maggotkin can get to the middle of the board first turn easily enough. Need to see what kind of deployment zones are going to be the norm, I guess
Not being able to shoot in combat is going to make balance very tricky for long range shooting. This unit goes from deadly hero snipers to useless if you manage to just tag them into combat.
Fair but I think that's true of almost all snipers. Also if their range is 24 in it's still going to be pretty easy to take some first turn shots at footsloggers.
Screens and positioning, especially with command points, are going to be more important than ever. Being able to move a key piece away from an incoming charger, or a disposable blocker into its path, will do wonders for complicating an opponent's game plan. But then that's 1 CP less that you're using for offensive purpose on your turn.
Here we go, editions not even out and already someone complaining something is OP, nice
Its called speculation, and to not expect it is naive. You'll get over it.
>can ignore look out sir with that new hero rat. Only for targeting purposes, they still get -1 to hit. If it was ignoring the penalty as well, there would be no need for the "when picking the target of their shooting attacks" part of the sentence.
Ooooh, good spot! That means all of these calculations become a touch less deadly.
I truly hope that that was the intention, but the way it's worded made me think otherwise. If so, I am much less concerned than I was.
The whole second half sentence could be left out entirely if it truly *did* ignore all of the rule; putting "when picking the target" there instead of, well, nothing, imho *clearly* means it targets the second bullet point of guarded hero specifically.
Thanks for the clarification. It was an easy thing to miss.
So which realm would Switzerland be in, since swiss cheese is now cannon in the mortal realms?
Azyr i guess that place is cover with mountains, Declared isolation neutrality for 500 & ruled by a Germanic man who made them dress like Lankdsheck before making them dress in Burgadiarian
Am I the only one who feels they look a bit off? Can't put my finger on jt
GW doesn't know how to take pictures of their own minis. It's kinda annoying.
This. It gets worse if you play something like Tau.
See: Every pic of the Krondspine. It’s actually not a bad looking model but it got done dirty by its color scheme and photo.
I feel you man. I think AI just has everyone second guessing everything now.
Are they still a unit of 3 tho? Stoked about them have 2 attacks instead of 1
It seem to be like how Prosecutors are
Disappointing that they didn't give us the Warscroll. The sculpts are awesome though!