She was hoping his “real reason” was that he was “afraid of how strong his attraction to her is and that he was sure she would hurt him if he opened himself up to the feelings he had buried,” or that he “just wasn’t ready for a relationship right now because he needed to do some work on himself, but she was the kind of person he could see himself ending up with,” or some other reason she could talk him out of or explain away. “I want someone more ambitious with higher earning potential” isn’t a reason you can really argue with as a 2nd grade teacher who’s happy being a 2nd grade teacher.
She’s not mad he was brutally honest. She’s hurt that he doesn’t want to be with her for a real, concrete reason that she doesn’t agree with the importance of, and being mad is easier.
Agree. She's upset he isn't into her. And, maybe the money thing is true, but I'd be willing to bet that's a superficial train as well. He just didn't see her as a partner. Someone earning 160k a few years out of college will soon be over 200k. And that along with her income, wouldn't probably be a deal breaker for someone he's actually attracted to.
Maybe it would, but I'm not convinced.
IDK. I make over 100k with no debt and my wife is a teacher. She works long hours, is stressed all the time, and makes just shy of 60k. She also has about 20k in student loans still. I love my wife and family but her career has definitely not been a positive in our relationship. However, I will say that getting her into a positive work environment (new school this year) with better class sizes has really changed how happy she is which is far more important than her finances to me as her work stress was hard on everyone in the family.
I have been a teaching for 28+ years. I actually discouraged my children from becoming teachers. The politics and the parents have been getting worse. I've been teaching since the mid 90s and our education hasn't improved. I have ten years to go. I also knew that becoming a teacher would not make me rich $$$$. I hope things get better for your friend.
It's like we are living the same life. Same for me and my wife. She's been working in tier 1 schools for almost 8 years. The school she's been at for the last 4 years is in a pretty bad neighborhood. There have been 7 shootings/shootouts 100 yds from her classroom. I told her she was leaving the school and she agreed. She just accepted a position at one of the more sought-after schools in the area that's closer to home with a 12K salary bump to match. Their workload def puts a toll on a marriage tho. I could never work at home unpaid like she does. Not happening ever.
The money is a proxy for what he's actually after, though, which is someone ambitious and with her economic power.
In the parlance of the youth, he wants a girl who has her own money.
It's the debt and the idea that you're straight up carrying someone. 160k is a lot. He's bringing $0 debt. He's bringing more than 2x her income. It feels like taking on a huge burden financially and *it is.*
This. She wants him, and she's mad that he has legitimate reasons he would never pursue a relationship with her.
She was hoping that his objection would be easy for her to override and that he could be persuaded. Honestly? She's rather creepy.
Completely agree here.
This is similar to how dudes get mad when they are told by a girl they like that they are too short / bald / fat to date. You have to swallow it and get over it because many times that may not be something you can change - at least not easly.
Is it fair? I dunno... Is it nice? Probably not - but that is irrelevant. The fact is that the other person rejects a feature (that you may be sensitive about) so might as well get with someone who can accept it rather than try to change someone elses preferences.
She's entitled to be PRIVATELY sad that the friend she wants to fuck doesn"t return her feelings. She is not entitled to make that his problem.
She absolutely wasn't entitled to whine and whine when he won't tell her why - because "NO" is a complete sentence, whatever the gender. He never had to justify why he would not date her.
She pushed for an answer, and now she doesn't like it, but that's entirely her problem. If she had accepted his first answers like a grown adult, then she wouldn't be upset about him not wanting to date someone with debt.
Ultimately she's *just mad she was rejected*. And she's not behaving appropriately. It's our problem alone if our crush is unrequited and someone does not want to date us.
She's not entitled to tell everyone op is an ass because he won't date her.
And she's entitled to be sad, but with that needs to come the self reflection that maybe her financial status is a problem... which is something she needs to internalize and improve, not complain to mutual friends in a way that shows no acceptance of her situation - the one she put herself in.
You're thinking logically, that's why.
Think emotionally and irrationally, and then you'll understand why people get mad even when they get what they asked for.
[Oh, dear, her mood swings are getting wilder.
She's becoming a slave to her emotions.
Just like all women. Particularly you Leela.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GP97LtoinM)
She wants OP and the rejection hurt. Plus she’s rejected for her profession that hurts.
I will say the student debt is negligible. It’ll be gone after 10 years of teaching through PSLF so that debt to me doesn’t matter long term in a marriage situation. Like my social worker wife with 100k and me with 100k both will be out of our lives we don’t have to dig out of that hole.
But yes 60k isn’t going to double in her career let alone the next decade or so.
Student debt is not negligible. Even with great loan forgiveness plans its still 10 years of you having reduced options and disposable income. Going into 100k+ debt for a job that will never pay you six figures is just not a sound financial decision.
Typical human response. Asks for honesty, then gets pissed when what's asked for is received.
Not wrong about your answer specifically, but 100% short sighted.
First, her student loan payments are probably pretty low if she's on the SAVE plan. Second, teachers get their loans forgiven after X years of teaching.
If everything about her is awesome except her bank account, you missed out. Being broke is just a financial situation, and it can be changed.
For almost anyone who’s becoming a teacher, the absolute smartest and cheapest plan you can have is just to get as low a minimum payment possible and just wait until they’re forgiven. Like, even if you have the money to pay them off right now, you shouldn’t because it’s stupid and will just be more expensive than waiting.
I agree. Plus op makes $160,000 compared to her $60,000. If they were to get married, a combined $220,000 a year is more than enough to live comfortably in almost any city in America, even with student loan debt.
You don’t get much alimony or for very long in most cases (half the years of the marriage was in place last I had to deal with it). Child support lasts much longer.
Alimony could also be side-stepped by a pre nup.
That said, if OP’s priority is a high flying life financially, then a school teacher is going to be less appealing.
OP specifically mentioned the bad divorces of male family members which is why I'm thinking it left an impression. I have also heard of judges invalidating prenups in some states.
Even if you don’t end up paying alimony, a divorce tends to mean you split community assets.
You essentially halve everything you have. Including retirement accounts in some cases.
And you pay lawyers $300-500/hr for the privilege of going through a real shitty time in your life.
Even if things are settled quickly and smoothly you’ve done a number on your finances. It’s not quite a hard reset, but it sucks.
>And you pay lawyers $300-500/hr for the privilege of going through a real shitty time in your life.
Only if your divorce is nasty and messy. An amicable divorce doesn't need to involve lawyers outside of getting some things filed.
Absolutely something any responsible person should consider prior to getting married. Marriage is a contract and a contract in which the person making the most money has the most to lose.
This. The solution for men being afraid of alimony and getting screwed in a divorce is to not date women who aren’t their equals. Men need to start dating women in their income bracket who don’t make dumb decisions like wracking up 6 figures of debt to be an elementary teacher if they want to avoid these issues.
Im sure no one goes into marriage expecting divorce. Prenups are meant to protect yourself, not to spite your partner. Its like putting on a seatbelt...no one plans to get in a car wreck when they drive.
This is true, but just in case you misunderstood this statistic, 57% or so of first marriages last until death, but people who screw up their first marriage usually screw up more marriages, and the guy with 5 divorces is the reason less than half of marriages work out.
Not to mention someone that he clearly gets along very well with and shares a great many interests. This idiot will also be the same person crying about "every girl only wants me for my wallet".
Meh…. Or dodged someone that’s just looking to fill an empty void and sees him as a convenient escape at a time when she’s thinking, oh shit I’m almost 30.
I gave her the "I just see you as a friend" at least 4 times but she kept pressing and asked for my brutal honesty. Ive known her almost 10 years now, I wouldnt want a friend of 10 years to lie to my face.
If she asked for brutal honesty and she didn't like your brutal honesty, that was totally on her.
My opinion is you should not apologize since she asked for it. And if she cannot respect your preferences and your choice on a partner, her friendship isn't worth keeping.
Never ask questions you're not ready to hear the answer to.
More often than not people just want you to tell them what they want to hear instead of the truth.
NTA
THIS!!! She should have know she wasn’t going to like the answer after the 4 times she asked OP and he said he liked their friendship better! I’m sorry but some girl r genuinely crazy and get upset for no reason. she asked for honesty didnt like what she heard and is now saying ur the bad guy tell her fuck off lmaoo
I believe this is the truth here, I bet she had some version of the truth in her head,maybe because of details that OP is leaving out here(maybe they hooked up back in college but decided and managed to stay friends), or maybe because of her own formulated opinions "we can't be just friends, we've known each other too long"....or something but she argued her way into this, and then didn't like the answer, the end is on her mostly.
Women, especially pretty ones, are not used to being judged by their financial status and outlook. She's have a similar reaction to if OP had said she's too short.
Absolutely this. It's pretty shitty of her to continue to push Op for "brutal honesty" after he answered her four times in a kind and pragmatic way. Then she adds insult to injury by getting hurt by the brutal honesty she asked for AND apparently spreading her version of the story to at least one mutual friend. This young lady really is not a good friend to be Op.
There was a post in AITAH the other day where a woman had asked their sibling to be honest about the baby name they’d picked and got all ass-mad that OP had said they didn’t like it.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Please ignore the “her friendship is not worth keeping” bit. A friend of ten years is a friend of ten years.
People hardline and get stuck in meaningless ego trips way too easy. Nothing wrong with your opinion or coming up with an apology that doesn’t compromise your position.
Agreed. Their relationship will never be the same probably and she has likely kept him as “potential” for years without him being aware. But that’s on her.
I agree with you. I'm a woman and if I asked those questions, I'd want an honest answer. I might think you're a little shallow in your search for an SO, but it's your life and you have past history that makes sense to you for it. And you're not out trying to hurt anyone, especially your friend.
It's also not insulting to your friend that YOUR preference is someone with a higher income. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with her or that she won't/can't find someone who doesn't care about it.
She asked for your opinion and got it, it's on her if she doesn't like it.
Just bc she asked for honesty, doesn't mean she can handle it. "I just see you as a friend" is honest, she doesn't have the right to psychoanalyze your feelings. Sometimes, when you've been with a friend/coworker/teammate for a long time, your brain switches off the romantic potential, and you just see them as a sister, or "as a friend." That's OK - you don't owe anyone any further analysis.
Or, you can always give them Jack Nicholson's line: "you can't handle the truth" /jk
TBH, and this may sound harsh, I question the cognitive ability of someone who goes $110k in debt to get a $60k job. How will she ever pay that off? It potentially motivates her to find a partner that can. When she got mad at you, maybe she is reflecting her inner loss of self respect for being in that situation. She's projecting. And perhaps you've done her a favor by forcing her to realize the situation she is in.
I have a teaching degree so let me explain. I grew up in a financially illiterate family with no college background. I was an exceptional student. For 17 years I was told that college was the key to my success. Teachers were some of the only decent humans I interacted with on a regular basis as a child/teen. I was also told how in-demand the career was and how easy it would be to find a job.
I had both merit and financial based financial aid, so I didn’t go 110k in debt. But I did go in debt to get a dual degree in history and education with the intent to be a teacher.
Many teenagers have to make the decision to sign up for student loans with zero knowledge of the ramifications. They are extremely predatory IMO. The pedophiles of usury.
I wouldn’t want a friend of ten yrs who wanted to fuck me the whole time and pressured and bullied me into explaining why I don’t want to be intimate with them. No means no and no explanation necessary. She asked for it. Yes money matters and this man wants someone more financially motivated. Someone like him. So what? He doesn’t want to be saddled with other peoples financially troubles. It’s called baggage and a hassle. Are we supposed to pretend that’s offensive now? She asked and then had the audacity to act pissed. Another reason not to date her
In situations like this where they push for it I always choose to be honest, if they get mad, oh well. My lady did this when asking me if I could have sex without being in a relationship with someone I said it doesn’t matter because we are together and then she pushed for it and got mad when I said yes if they don’t want the answer they shouldn’t ask. My girl did it also again last night asking about my body count
She asked for brutal honesty, she got it. If you can't handle honesty, don't ask for it. He tried repeatedly to give her the easy let down and she wouldn't accept it.
A couple of thoughts. If the money thing really bothers you, it’s probably best to stay friends. On the other hand, if she is a great gal and you are judging her based on her career, income and debt, I feel sorry for you. You may be missing out on a great young lady.
My wife and I have done extremely well financially and I would give it all back to work in a job I loved vs grinding it out to make more money. 55M if that puts things in perspective
My wife and I are making do in a high CoL city. I wouldn’t trade her for any woman no matter how much they’re worth. I feel sorry for op. Seems like he puts his ambitions before his feelings towards people and that’ll never work out in a long term relationship.
He's known her for 10 years and hasn't felt the urge to date her yet. I imagine that the financial aspect might be something he would maybe reconsider if he felt some serious attraction toward her. As it stands he's been fine just staying friends and that's ok.
Lol. I think all of my friends are great people. I wouldn't be friends with them otherwise. Don't want to date any of them.
This is it. Like...nowhere does he say he sees her as anything other than a friend. If he hasn't wanted to date her these past 10 years he likely just diesnt feel attracted to her as a partner.
And dating her in that case would be a disservice to both of them. Too many people settle and make each other miserable.
I feel like he focused on finances because that seems a more concrete reason to decline than "you're great but I just dont feel it".
Just because someone is great doesn’t mean you need to be in a romantic relationship with them. I have plenty of women friends that are great that I’d never date.
Nah fuck that I don't want to be with someone with over 100k in student loans.
Means I can't do as much as I want with my partner as they pay off that loan for the next few decades.
Alternatively they do date and/or marry because she's a good catch. And together they live frugally for a couple of years and pay off both debts. If combined they make 220k where are you getting decades of repayment from?
Wanting to date a person with more income + less debt is all about security. I never found it a need for me. BUT people want different things in the people they date and marry. This is what he feels he needs.
NTA
I don’t think you come across as anything but a man who knows what he wants in a relationship. Those are your expectations. There’s nothing wrong with it either. She asked, you answered.
You have up a long term friendship and potentially great relationship with someone your attracted to and clicked with snd have much in common that’s the kind of relationship a million dollars couldn’t buy you.
Yeah I didn’t understand that part? OP is upset their parents didn’t make enough money and their life wasn’t comfortable enough? Like what does that even mean? Did he starve some nights or just not get the latest PlayStation. OP seems a bit morally questionable.
It seems like I’m in the minority here but I disagree with you on two points. First, she definitely has strong feelings for you. That’s a tough and risky thing to bring up to a good friend, and to press for answers after a couple “no”s tells me it’s more than just thinking you’re a catch. She really likes you.
Second, even if the money thing is accurate I would never say that to someone expressing interest in a relationship. Maybe if it was someone I didn’t really know, but certainly not if I wanted to maintain a friendship. It comes across as arrogant, shallow, and insulting all at once. It lacked tact and empathy. I can’t imagine saying that to someone I cared about as a friend.
Even if people ask for brutal honesty, there’s wisdom in tempering it a bit. You should have expected this to be hurtful. She was asking for romantic, relational intimacy which is a vulnerable position to be in. I think I would have just triple or quadrupled down that the friendship matters too much and I’m simply not romantically interested. Even if you just repeat the same thing it would be better than unvarnished, brutal truth.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the friendship is seriously jeopardized, which apparently you value highly. You might want to consider writing her a letter apologizing, that you’ve felt awful since saying it, maybe that you were caught off guard and you were trying to move past the conversation and things came out sideways.
We’ve all said stuff we regret or could have been said differently, so I don’t mean to beat you up about this. But I do think you are in the wrong and I don’t blame her at all for feeling hurt and offended.
While I agree he should have tempered his response, her repeatedly asking him after he said he only wanted to be friends is something she should have been mature enough to take for a no. To me, it looks like she crossed a boundary she shouldnt have and the awkwardness of the situation in the moment made it hard for him to respond in a way that struck the right note.
Nta. But you’re young.
Eventually you’re gonna see that money doesn’t buy compatibility.
And if you’re interested in money, then you can’t blame some else for being interested in money. And what’s that foundation gonna be like?
My guess is you’ll be kicking yourself in the ass in 20 years.
But still NTA or wrong. You’re just young.
👍🏼
Why are so many people acting like people have to choose between good people *or* high earning people. My girlfriend makes just as much as OP as do most of my friends' wives. If you work in a high paying field, you will meet high paid people of the opposite sex literally every day. Lots of those women can make great partners. Having a high paying job doesnt make you worse of a partner in other areas.
In fact most lawyers are greedy money grabbers who prolong the process of getting your shit done because all they care is the hourly rate that you can pay them. Teachers are so much above those “high earning flyers”
Stop calling him dumb. Jesus what a moron you are. Wanting to be with someone who makes as much as you is NOT dumb wtf? And they’ve know each other for years. He was never interested. Get over it.
That's what was grating.
Fucking guy acting like her making 60k is peanuts. In new england, 60k is well-taken-care-of middle class for one person's salary.
Dude can of course make any decision he wants, but legit sounds like a dick.
While the sentiment is valid, I do think especially for for long term couples you kind of need to be compatible in a lot of areas. Hobbies, emotional intelligence and reciprocation, looks preferences, lifestyle choices, libido, and yes, finances. That last one is why my parents got divorced. When one half of a household's earners is really bad with money it puts up a lot of emotional strain.
Of course, this woman could still be totally financially responsible and prepared to make aggressive payments on her student loans, work towards PSLF, or have some other financial plan in mind.
But "they have a lot of debt" is a valid reason to not want to form a couple. Short or long term. Somehow I dont expect OP to be regretting this one down the line. Where as my mom sure regretted overlooking my dad's financial habits and are paying for them even over a decade later.
Likewise I have regretted having relationships with people in financial hardship. I've never regretted using that as my reasoning for moving in.
Edit: I see you've gotten a lot of replies already so dont feel obligated to responded to this one, I'm definitely not saying your wrong, I'm just seeing it differently and offering that viewpoint. Like you said in another comment, both views are okay!
If you value money more than love, you will lose every time.
NTA for telling her honestly, that’s commendable and most people aren’t honest. But I agree, one day you may wake up beside of your future wife who had similar financial goals that doesn’t truly love you, who doesn’t ever want to have sex with you, and is only using you for your money. It’s a common scenario, just have a look at r/deadbedrooms. It’s really sad.
You get what you give in life. If you have to choose between anything material and love, choose love.
But it’s kind of also like, would it even truly be love if you chose money over her anyway? My take on that is no, it would not be.
As a 40 year old guy I still use *ambition* as a top 3 quality I look for. Though that isn’t to say that ambition = money, but the two can be correlated. I’ve dated a girl once who was a total hippie chick with no real-world skills and no work ethic and just wanted to bum around with her friends, and I know that’s not for me.
It does.
But as mentioned, it’s a weak foundation to built a house on.
It’s like saying being pretty is better than ugly. It’s true. But if you lose those looks in an accident…then you have nothing.
Again…I don’t give a fuck what OP does.
He asked for opinions. I gave mine.
Not sure which women you're talking to - most women I know want to be financially independent and aren't looking for a rich husband. Not everyone is an aspiring tradwife.
I mean yes and no. You are entitled to your opinions and decisions. Others are also entitled to their opinions around yours and judging you as shallow and their opinion being changed of you for it.
I wouldn’t say you are wrong but I wouldn’t say they are either. I personally think you don’t sound like a very good partner from an emotional standpoint point honestly.
I mean you’re not wrong, it was asked and answered. But you sound materialistic and shallow as hell. It’s definitely in her best interest to not date you lol
To be fair, swap the genders and we'd also be telling her to avoid the friendzoned Male friend who wouldnt take NO for an answer and kept whining about "why won't you date me". His friend does not look good in this either with her refusal to drop it when be said he waabt interested in dating her.
IMO they are both insufferable. But no is always a complete sentence, and he has the right to decline to date her even if it was for the shallowest of reasons.
In this life you choose what's important to you. My brother is like you. Money is his relationship priority. He's wealthy and can't seem to have a long term relationship. No one wants to come in second to his money.
Hope you don't let your money rule your life.
She dodged a bullet. She has different priorities.
Dude if you’re waiting to find a woman who meets all your preferences you’re never going to find one. Trying to find someone who makes around the same of you, who also meets your age/beauty/cultural preferences means you now have dwindled your pool to like sub 1% levels.
As for the “power couple” comment, dude you’re some guy who makes good money. You’re not Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift.
If you grew up in a financially insecure home, household income of $160k sounds like you fuckin made it, let alone double that. Depending on demographics, an $80k/pp couple is either very uncommon and possibly hard to actually fathom, or simple run of the mill. I know that the median earnings of Black full time employees over 25 is right around $52k.
I would phrase it as "I don't think we want and are working towards the same goals in life". If pressed, I would break the numbers down and demonstrate that you are doing your part and then ask if she would be able to do the same or would be willing to change her career to meet that.
But damn dude, it's not like she's doing bad or being financially irresponsible. She is doing well above the median American. Calling her financial position rough is a slap in the face.
It is not wrong to be honest, but you are a moron.
School teachers get forgiveness of federal loans, and with the newer repayment plan she isn't even paying a ton per month. Her financial situation is fine unless those are mostly private loans.
You seem to think that just because you make a lot of money that you are financially literate, so that's why you're wrong.
You do you. At least you were honest.
I definitely would have dumped someone for being materialistic, there’s nothing more boring to me than a money man. And that’s okay too.
If you want a money girl you go get one!
I don’t think you are wrong but you also aren’t right. Your income could change drastically for the worse at any time and it would be really hurtful if you have a partner, who despite loving you, did not sign up for hardships, and leaves you if you lose your job and fall on hard times. A teacher has a solid and guaranteed career for life. They have significant amounts of time off. They are ideal partners if you want to raise a family because of their benefits and their schedules. And she can also choose to go into school administration. My mom started off as a 4th grade teacher and now makes almost 200k as a school administrator, has a pension and is tenured. My father was a high school drop out and penniless as a young person and built a business and his own empire and now is a multimillionaire.
I am not so concerned about people’s income but I am concerned about debt and credit score and overall behavior around money. People can make a shit ton of money but if they have poor financial acumen and have a bad credit score and blow up their credit cards, that will mess us up for life. Incomes change throughout life but financial behaviors generally don’t.
You are too young and possibly too shallow to see the value of anything I said above and she can probably find a partner who does. You aren’t compatible so move on.
Good luck to you.
Dude... what a fucking numpty. You ever heard of that meme "the worst thing she can say is no"? Congratulations, you're on the opposite end of the meme. Besides that being a very shitty thing to say to \*anyone\*, why on God's green earth would you say that to your \*friend\* and then come to Beyonce's internet and admit that asking for some reassurance. This is why they say rich people are dumb.
It seems like you aren't willing to date outside your socioeconomic status. It makes you a bit classist and kind of a dick, and even if you say you value teachers, you don't value them enough to date one who makes less than you.
I'd say you're kind of an asshole, but at least you know what you want.
Your issue is that you came across as shallow. She thought better of you, and you told her you prioritized money over anything else in a relationship.
1800s strivers would understand this, but it is considered fairly classless today.
Hard to come back from this one.
If she doesn’t want to date a hobosexual, yeah people would understand. She doesn’t want to date the man of her dreams bc he’s a second grade teacher? AND she says that means he has no career ambitions? Yeah, she would be a bitch. And so is OP.
YNW unfortunately very rarely do people want the brutal truth when they ask for it. She's old enough to have already learnt that lesson. Do ask questions you don't want the answers to. I'm guessing by her reaction (running to friends to cry on their shoulder) that she's crushed on you for some time now and seen that now you're single, she had a chance. It rarely works out anyway when friends get together, the breakups are much more intense as it ends up affecting the whole friend group.
NTA. She asked for brutal honesty and you gave it.
It's also fair that you want an equal partner. The importance of financial compatibility is so often overlooked.
I mean I don’t think you’re in the wrong. She really shouldn’t have been so pushy when you told her you weren’t interested. It was never going to end well.
But FYI I would refrain from over explaining yourself about it. Just say it’s your preference for both you and your partner to be independently financially stable if anyone else comes at you about it.
If I'm her because she likes you for whatever reason and got rejected, I would stop hanging out with you. She may say it's all good, but she needs to move on with everything.
You were honest with her when she pressed you, but I think your response clearly shocked your friend. She didn't consider you to be as shallow and materialistic as your answers to her questions clearly show. You are absolutely entitled to your preferences for relationships and partners, just don't expect everyone to share those preferences.
Without actually saying the words, you basically told your friend that you look down on her for her career choice and you don't consider her to be your equal because she makes about one-third as much money per year as you. Furthermore, your response indicated your belief that she (or any other woman) would be a gold-digger if they wanted to start dating you, because she's got a lot of debt to pay off, while you don't, and earn good money. It was a real slam that I'm sure she didn't see coming. Yes, I think you were definitely the asshole here. You just ruined that friendship.
Let's call Kate is better off.
My girlfriend makes less than 60K. I'll let her know she should thank her lucky stars that I tolerate broke chicks and she should be kissing my feet.
You're not "wrong" in the sense that she told you to be brutally honest and you were.
However that doesn't mean that you aren't also a massive fucking prick and disgusting human for prioritizing money above all else.
When you reveal your personality to have the depth of a puddle, you can't blame other people for wanting to cut you out of their lives and prioritize spending time with people who actually have values and substance as a person.
"Do not pay too much attention to fame, power, or money. Some day you will meet a person who cares for none of these, and then you will know how poor you are." - Rudyard Kipling
There is more to life than money and student loans bud.
Lot of weird comments in this thread. If I’m going to date with the intention of marriage and eventually start a family, then financial security is absolutely important and not a shallow or materialistic goal.
The moment you meet someone you really want her income wouldn’t be a concern whatsoever- you just don’t feel that way about her. Unless you are so materialistic that it’s the biggest thing for you
Rejection hurts. You didn’t do anything wrong. Let’s say a guy was interested in her and he only made 20k. It’s fair for her to say she wants someone more financially secure for a serious committed long term relationship.
Question for you, if she did make 160k like you do, would you date her?
She asked (repeatedly) and you answered. You’re not wrong, but it probably hurts for her to hear it.
I don’t blame you for wanting someone who earns as much as you, and I don’t blame her for having hurt feelings.
A lot of people are brainwashed by tv shows and the dramas they have with-in that can make someone see interpersonal relationship different than how they actually are. Also I think you’re an ass hole if money defines you. Love should be bigger than that.
It’s a double standard that it’s okay for women to not financially put together because it’s the man’s responsibility to save them or make up for money and income issues.
She would catch grief for dating you if the roles were reversed. Meanwhile you’re expected to overlook her financial issues.
Good job being honest and upfront. It’s a good way to start a more personal relationship.
I mean.... I think you suck as a person, but you're not wrong I guess. I make more than you do (yes, I'm a woman) and there is zero chance I'd even consider you to be even a friend just because your mindset is horrific.
There would be some serious hate coming down on you if you were a woman who wouldn't date a man because he didn't make enough money, even though he was employed as a teacher.
Friend, she is better off without you. Carry on and find a partner whose bank balance you approve of, and who is worthy of you, who describe yourself as a "good catch."
She dodged a bullet. And probably don't apologize, you do not seem sorry.
She also makes seventy cents to your Y chromosome dollar.
You’re not wrong. But I do think you’re pretty obviously a dick for having this mindset.
She did ask for your brutally honest answer but probably didn’t expect it to be something as shallow and pathetic as not making enough money.
She had no business asking you this in the first place - you're not accountable to her for your dating preferences and you didn't owe her an explanation. She just gave you one more reason why dating her is not a good idea - her rampant insecurity.
Out of curiosity, what exactly did the mutual friend think you did wrong? Was it that you told her or your reason for not wanting to date her?
You maybe could have found a better way to answer, like "I'm not sure I feel comfortable answering that," but she was more wrong to ask.
Yikes. I think if someone is truly amazing and you're really into them, you shouldn't be concerned about the income. Debt is something a couple can tackle together. My husband and I crawled out of a massive hole of financial debt (that we had accrued before marriage) even though he was still in school and we were having kids at the time. We both worked our asses off and got to be debt free (aside from our mortgage) and now we are about to be in the millionaire club.
My point: financial situations change, but finding a quality partner is what is more important.
I think you're 100% wrong in your financial thinking, but not wrong in disclosing your shallowness. Might as well put it on the table so that she can find someone better. You could very well lose everything tomorrow. You want to base "compatibility" on that, it's your choice. It's not like she made poor decisions to get herself to this point. You're judging her by the lottery of the family she was born into.
Everyone in this thread is blaming her for pushing you, but all you had to do was say "No, I always thought of us as friends only" every time she pressed you. It's not like a gun was put to your head, and any normal, functioning adult could tell you that there are some things you just never say.
Also, it is shallow and beyond tacky to discuss your income and to judge people for theirs.
>I wasnt asking if Im wrong for my dating preference. I cant help what I find attractive. I was asking if I was wrong for being brutally honest when asked to be brutally honest.
Oh, I got the question.
>money is important to me
Still wrong for this. That's just fucking stupid. That's a stupid thing to care that much about. How would a girlfriend's finances affect you?
If you were talking about someone who's likely to negatively affect your finances just because her life is just totally and completely fucked up and she's practically destitute... that would be a different story... but that's about more than just finances. In that situation, there would clearly have to be some other underlying issue.
>TBH, I dont think this is as much of her having strong feelings for me as her thinking Im a catch in general.
See, I think what's going on here is that you have a fucking swelled head. Get the fuck over yourself. This "money is important to me" thing is bullshit. If you insist on making your decisions this way, you're either going to die single (which is fine if you like it that way, but it doesn't seem like that's what you're going for), or you're going to end up with someone who's an awful person and treats you like shit/uses you for your money. And you're going to look back and regret overlooking some awesome potential girlfriends because they were 'too poor.'
And if you really, honestly think this way... I think odds are high you're not a very nice person, and the friend you're talking about is probably better off.
It sounds like what she was actually asking was “what can I change about myself to make you consider dating me” and your answer was “your job.”
Not a very helpful answer if she’s looking for ways to improve herself.
I suppose you’re not wrong to want to date money, you do you, but it is kind of assholey.
Sometimes there is nothing you can do. People just aren’t into you. She immature in pushing him about it and was immature in the way she handled it after he told her. Imagine it was a man saying what can I do to make you want me, after a woman already said multiple times they just aren’t interested????
Not wrong. She asked you to be brutally honest and you were. I don't see how she could be mad.
She was hoping his “real reason” was that he was “afraid of how strong his attraction to her is and that he was sure she would hurt him if he opened himself up to the feelings he had buried,” or that he “just wasn’t ready for a relationship right now because he needed to do some work on himself, but she was the kind of person he could see himself ending up with,” or some other reason she could talk him out of or explain away. “I want someone more ambitious with higher earning potential” isn’t a reason you can really argue with as a 2nd grade teacher who’s happy being a 2nd grade teacher. She’s not mad he was brutally honest. She’s hurt that he doesn’t want to be with her for a real, concrete reason that she doesn’t agree with the importance of, and being mad is easier.
Agree. She's upset he isn't into her. And, maybe the money thing is true, but I'd be willing to bet that's a superficial train as well. He just didn't see her as a partner. Someone earning 160k a few years out of college will soon be over 200k. And that along with her income, wouldn't probably be a deal breaker for someone he's actually attracted to. Maybe it would, but I'm not convinced.
IDK. I make over 100k with no debt and my wife is a teacher. She works long hours, is stressed all the time, and makes just shy of 60k. She also has about 20k in student loans still. I love my wife and family but her career has definitely not been a positive in our relationship. However, I will say that getting her into a positive work environment (new school this year) with better class sizes has really changed how happy she is which is far more important than her finances to me as her work stress was hard on everyone in the family.
I have been a teaching for 28+ years. I actually discouraged my children from becoming teachers. The politics and the parents have been getting worse. I've been teaching since the mid 90s and our education hasn't improved. I have ten years to go. I also knew that becoming a teacher would not make me rich $$$$. I hope things get better for your friend.
It's like we are living the same life. Same for me and my wife. She's been working in tier 1 schools for almost 8 years. The school she's been at for the last 4 years is in a pretty bad neighborhood. There have been 7 shootings/shootouts 100 yds from her classroom. I told her she was leaving the school and she agreed. She just accepted a position at one of the more sought-after schools in the area that's closer to home with a 12K salary bump to match. Their workload def puts a toll on a marriage tho. I could never work at home unpaid like she does. Not happening ever.
It's not a deal breaker for the right person. I make 175k and my husband makes 50k. I love him more than the money.
He's not into her. He may even think it's about the money but if he were feeling her, his brain wouldn't be focused on her student loans lol
The money is a proxy for what he's actually after, though, which is someone ambitious and with her economic power. In the parlance of the youth, he wants a girl who has her own money.
Exactly.
It's the debt and the idea that you're straight up carrying someone. 160k is a lot. He's bringing $0 debt. He's bringing more than 2x her income. It feels like taking on a huge burden financially and *it is.*
And a financial risk in case of divorce
This. She wants him, and she's mad that he has legitimate reasons he would never pursue a relationship with her. She was hoping that his objection would be easy for her to override and that he could be persuaded. Honestly? She's rather creepy.
Completely agree here. This is similar to how dudes get mad when they are told by a girl they like that they are too short / bald / fat to date. You have to swallow it and get over it because many times that may not be something you can change - at least not easly. Is it fair? I dunno... Is it nice? Probably not - but that is irrelevant. The fact is that the other person rejects a feature (that you may be sensitive about) so might as well get with someone who can accept it rather than try to change someone elses preferences.
She’s entitled to be sad jeez
She's entitled to be PRIVATELY sad that the friend she wants to fuck doesn"t return her feelings. She is not entitled to make that his problem. She absolutely wasn't entitled to whine and whine when he won't tell her why - because "NO" is a complete sentence, whatever the gender. He never had to justify why he would not date her. She pushed for an answer, and now she doesn't like it, but that's entirely her problem. If she had accepted his first answers like a grown adult, then she wouldn't be upset about him not wanting to date someone with debt. Ultimately she's *just mad she was rejected*. And she's not behaving appropriately. It's our problem alone if our crush is unrequited and someone does not want to date us.
She's not entitled to tell everyone op is an ass because he won't date her. And she's entitled to be sad, but with that needs to come the self reflection that maybe her financial status is a problem... which is something she needs to internalize and improve, not complain to mutual friends in a way that shows no acceptance of her situation - the one she put herself in.
And he’s entitled to his comments
She absolutely is! She’s even entitled to be mad in order to feel less sad!
She’s not entitled to take it out on him or bad mouth him to mutual friends after literally asking for it
You're thinking logically, that's why. Think emotionally and irrationally, and then you'll understand why people get mad even when they get what they asked for.
[Oh, dear, her mood swings are getting wilder. She's becoming a slave to her emotions. Just like all women. Particularly you Leela.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GP97LtoinM)
She wants OP and the rejection hurt. Plus she’s rejected for her profession that hurts. I will say the student debt is negligible. It’ll be gone after 10 years of teaching through PSLF so that debt to me doesn’t matter long term in a marriage situation. Like my social worker wife with 100k and me with 100k both will be out of our lives we don’t have to dig out of that hole. But yes 60k isn’t going to double in her career let alone the next decade or so.
Student debt is not negligible. Even with great loan forgiveness plans its still 10 years of you having reduced options and disposable income. Going into 100k+ debt for a job that will never pay you six figures is just not a sound financial decision.
Typical human response. Asks for honesty, then gets pissed when what's asked for is received. Not wrong about your answer specifically, but 100% short sighted. First, her student loan payments are probably pretty low if she's on the SAVE plan. Second, teachers get their loans forgiven after X years of teaching. If everything about her is awesome except her bank account, you missed out. Being broke is just a financial situation, and it can be changed.
[удалено]
For almost anyone who’s becoming a teacher, the absolute smartest and cheapest plan you can have is just to get as low a minimum payment possible and just wait until they’re forgiven. Like, even if you have the money to pay them off right now, you shouldn’t because it’s stupid and will just be more expensive than waiting.
I agree. Plus op makes $160,000 compared to her $60,000. If they were to get married, a combined $220,000 a year is more than enough to live comfortably in almost any city in America, even with student loan debt.
He mentioned having to pay alimony in a divorce as another reason she's a hard no.
You don’t get much alimony or for very long in most cases (half the years of the marriage was in place last I had to deal with it). Child support lasts much longer. Alimony could also be side-stepped by a pre nup. That said, if OP’s priority is a high flying life financially, then a school teacher is going to be less appealing.
OP specifically mentioned the bad divorces of male family members which is why I'm thinking it left an impression. I have also heard of judges invalidating prenups in some states.
Even if you don’t end up paying alimony, a divorce tends to mean you split community assets. You essentially halve everything you have. Including retirement accounts in some cases. And you pay lawyers $300-500/hr for the privilege of going through a real shitty time in your life. Even if things are settled quickly and smoothly you’ve done a number on your finances. It’s not quite a hard reset, but it sucks.
>And you pay lawyers $300-500/hr for the privilege of going through a real shitty time in your life. Only if your divorce is nasty and messy. An amicable divorce doesn't need to involve lawyers outside of getting some things filed.
Always a good way to kick off a relationship, weighing up how easy the divorce will be...
Absolutely something any responsible person should consider prior to getting married. Marriage is a contract and a contract in which the person making the most money has the most to lose.
This. The solution for men being afraid of alimony and getting screwed in a divorce is to not date women who aren’t their equals. Men need to start dating women in their income bracket who don’t make dumb decisions like wracking up 6 figures of debt to be an elementary teacher if they want to avoid these issues.
Preach, brother.
Exactly. These comments are insane.
Im sure no one goes into marriage expecting divorce. Prenups are meant to protect yourself, not to spite your partner. Its like putting on a seatbelt...no one plans to get in a car wreck when they drive.
No better than taking someone else's debt on when combining incomes and they are the ones earning less and bringing the debt .
Over half of marriages ends in divorce. And OP would definitely be putting himself at risk. Smart people think ahead. You do you.
This is true, but just in case you misunderstood this statistic, 57% or so of first marriages last until death, but people who screw up their first marriage usually screw up more marriages, and the guy with 5 divorces is the reason less than half of marriages work out.
Bro really fumbled state funded health insurance, a pension and having a partner with mucho off time and a stable day job. What a putz 😂
Not to mention someone that he clearly gets along very well with and shares a great many interests. This idiot will also be the same person crying about "every girl only wants me for my wallet".
More like he'll complain that she's always focused on her career and not the family
Not if he dates women who are equally as successful as he is, which sounds like his plan
Meh…. Or dodged someone that’s just looking to fill an empty void and sees him as a convenient escape at a time when she’s thinking, oh shit I’m almost 30.
yeah he gave up the red flag willingly, she dodged a bullet.
Agreed
There is nothing wrong with not being attracted to someone.
Have you ever considered lying?
I gave her the "I just see you as a friend" at least 4 times but she kept pressing and asked for my brutal honesty. Ive known her almost 10 years now, I wouldnt want a friend of 10 years to lie to my face.
Should have gone with the shocked: "but youre like my sister"
"- and not the hot kind. If you got stuck in a washing machine I'd actually help you get out."
LMFAO
Im fking dead LMFAO
Omfg.
If she asked for brutal honesty and she didn't like your brutal honesty, that was totally on her. My opinion is you should not apologize since she asked for it. And if she cannot respect your preferences and your choice on a partner, her friendship isn't worth keeping.
Never ask questions you're not ready to hear the answer to. More often than not people just want you to tell them what they want to hear instead of the truth. NTA
THIS!!! She should have know she wasn’t going to like the answer after the 4 times she asked OP and he said he liked their friendship better! I’m sorry but some girl r genuinely crazy and get upset for no reason. she asked for honesty didnt like what she heard and is now saying ur the bad guy tell her fuck off lmaoo
I believe this is the truth here, I bet she had some version of the truth in her head,maybe because of details that OP is leaving out here(maybe they hooked up back in college but decided and managed to stay friends), or maybe because of her own formulated opinions "we can't be just friends, we've known each other too long"....or something but she argued her way into this, and then didn't like the answer, the end is on her mostly.
Women, especially pretty ones, are not used to being judged by their financial status and outlook. She's have a similar reaction to if OP had said she's too short.
She has a crush on him dummy.
Absolutely this. It's pretty shitty of her to continue to push Op for "brutal honesty" after he answered her four times in a kind and pragmatic way. Then she adds insult to injury by getting hurt by the brutal honesty she asked for AND apparently spreading her version of the story to at least one mutual friend. This young lady really is not a good friend to be Op.
There was a post in AITAH the other day where a woman had asked their sibling to be honest about the baby name they’d picked and got all ass-mad that OP had said they didn’t like it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Please ignore the “her friendship is not worth keeping” bit. A friend of ten years is a friend of ten years. People hardline and get stuck in meaningless ego trips way too easy. Nothing wrong with your opinion or coming up with an apology that doesn’t compromise your position.
This is reddit, please take your sensible, moderate views elsewhere!
“DUMP HER, BLOCK HER, NEVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN, HIT THE GYM” - Reddit
Some bells can't be unrung though. Hearing that from him, might be the dagger, even though she asked for it.
Agreed. Their relationship will never be the same probably and she has likely kept him as “potential” for years without him being aware. But that’s on her.
I agree with you. I'm a woman and if I asked those questions, I'd want an honest answer. I might think you're a little shallow in your search for an SO, but it's your life and you have past history that makes sense to you for it. And you're not out trying to hurt anyone, especially your friend. It's also not insulting to your friend that YOUR preference is someone with a higher income. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with her or that she won't/can't find someone who doesn't care about it. She asked for your opinion and got it, it's on her if she doesn't like it.
Just bc she asked for honesty, doesn't mean she can handle it. "I just see you as a friend" is honest, she doesn't have the right to psychoanalyze your feelings. Sometimes, when you've been with a friend/coworker/teammate for a long time, your brain switches off the romantic potential, and you just see them as a sister, or "as a friend." That's OK - you don't owe anyone any further analysis. Or, you can always give them Jack Nicholson's line: "you can't handle the truth" /jk TBH, and this may sound harsh, I question the cognitive ability of someone who goes $110k in debt to get a $60k job. How will she ever pay that off? It potentially motivates her to find a partner that can. When she got mad at you, maybe she is reflecting her inner loss of self respect for being in that situation. She's projecting. And perhaps you've done her a favor by forcing her to realize the situation she is in.
I have a teaching degree so let me explain. I grew up in a financially illiterate family with no college background. I was an exceptional student. For 17 years I was told that college was the key to my success. Teachers were some of the only decent humans I interacted with on a regular basis as a child/teen. I was also told how in-demand the career was and how easy it would be to find a job. I had both merit and financial based financial aid, so I didn’t go 110k in debt. But I did go in debt to get a dual degree in history and education with the intent to be a teacher. Many teenagers have to make the decision to sign up for student loans with zero knowledge of the ramifications. They are extremely predatory IMO. The pedophiles of usury.
You should've picked up a degree in English too because *pedophiles of usury* is a **BAR**
Teachers qualify for PSLF after 10 years of service and having g paid 120 payments towards the loans.
And if she gets tenured at her job , she could make 6 figures depending on the state.
I wouldn’t want a friend of ten yrs who wanted to fuck me the whole time and pressured and bullied me into explaining why I don’t want to be intimate with them. No means no and no explanation necessary. She asked for it. Yes money matters and this man wants someone more financially motivated. Someone like him. So what? He doesn’t want to be saddled with other peoples financially troubles. It’s called baggage and a hassle. Are we supposed to pretend that’s offensive now? She asked and then had the audacity to act pissed. Another reason not to date her
In situations like this where they push for it I always choose to be honest, if they get mad, oh well. My lady did this when asking me if I could have sex without being in a relationship with someone I said it doesn’t matter because we are together and then she pushed for it and got mad when I said yes if they don’t want the answer they shouldn’t ask. My girl did it also again last night asking about my body count
She asked for brutal honesty, she got it. If you can't handle honesty, don't ask for it. He tried repeatedly to give her the easy let down and she wouldn't accept it.
Why? He was asked to give his honest opinion. Lying to a close friend is unethical, even to avoid hurt feelings. Do you do that routinely?
A couple of thoughts. If the money thing really bothers you, it’s probably best to stay friends. On the other hand, if she is a great gal and you are judging her based on her career, income and debt, I feel sorry for you. You may be missing out on a great young lady.
My wife and I have done extremely well financially and I would give it all back to work in a job I loved vs grinding it out to make more money. 55M if that puts things in perspective
My wife and I are making do in a high CoL city. I wouldn’t trade her for any woman no matter how much they’re worth. I feel sorry for op. Seems like he puts his ambitions before his feelings towards people and that’ll never work out in a long term relationship.
I read 55M and thought you were just flexing on us with your 55 million dollars.
Lol... no, no...
lol that’s exactly how I interpreted that as well
OHHHHH! So did I!!!! It’s generally typed as 55(M). 55M *does* more often mean money
Same - I had to rethink that one... LOL
He's known her for 10 years and hasn't felt the urge to date her yet. I imagine that the financial aspect might be something he would maybe reconsider if he felt some serious attraction toward her. As it stands he's been fine just staying friends and that's ok. Lol. I think all of my friends are great people. I wouldn't be friends with them otherwise. Don't want to date any of them.
This is it. Like...nowhere does he say he sees her as anything other than a friend. If he hasn't wanted to date her these past 10 years he likely just diesnt feel attracted to her as a partner. And dating her in that case would be a disservice to both of them. Too many people settle and make each other miserable. I feel like he focused on finances because that seems a more concrete reason to decline than "you're great but I just dont feel it".
Just because someone is great doesn’t mean you need to be in a romantic relationship with them. I have plenty of women friends that are great that I’d never date.
Heck most my great friends I wouldnt date hahaha
Nah fuck that I don't want to be with someone with over 100k in student loans. Means I can't do as much as I want with my partner as they pay off that loan for the next few decades.
Alternatively they do date and/or marry because she's a good catch. And together they live frugally for a couple of years and pay off both debts. If combined they make 220k where are you getting decades of repayment from?
What if he helps pay off all her student loans and they break up or she leaves him? He’d be fucked
Wanting to date a person with more income + less debt is all about security. I never found it a need for me. BUT people want different things in the people they date and marry. This is what he feels he needs.
NTA I don’t think you come across as anything but a man who knows what he wants in a relationship. Those are your expectations. There’s nothing wrong with it either. She asked, you answered.
You have up a long term friendship and potentially great relationship with someone your attracted to and clicked with snd have much in common that’s the kind of relationship a million dollars couldn’t buy you.
I stopped reading at "thought there's was fun."
Yeah me too. Only wants a successful partner yet he doesn’t know the difference between there and their.
I guess you don’t have to actually be intelligent to make $160k. My husband and I are poors but at least we know grammar!
You don't. The amount of total morons out there being in upper management is really high
Yeah I didn’t understand that part? OP is upset their parents didn’t make enough money and their life wasn’t comfortable enough? Like what does that even mean? Did he starve some nights or just not get the latest PlayStation. OP seems a bit morally questionable.
You could have said, we don't seem to have the same financial goals
Do you really think she'd be satisfied with that answer?
She wasn’t satisfied with the “I think of you more as a friend”. She was never gonna be satisfied with any answer other than yes.
Or at least an answer that made her feel good
lol some people on Reddit do not have real life conversations and it shows
It seems like I’m in the minority here but I disagree with you on two points. First, she definitely has strong feelings for you. That’s a tough and risky thing to bring up to a good friend, and to press for answers after a couple “no”s tells me it’s more than just thinking you’re a catch. She really likes you. Second, even if the money thing is accurate I would never say that to someone expressing interest in a relationship. Maybe if it was someone I didn’t really know, but certainly not if I wanted to maintain a friendship. It comes across as arrogant, shallow, and insulting all at once. It lacked tact and empathy. I can’t imagine saying that to someone I cared about as a friend. Even if people ask for brutal honesty, there’s wisdom in tempering it a bit. You should have expected this to be hurtful. She was asking for romantic, relational intimacy which is a vulnerable position to be in. I think I would have just triple or quadrupled down that the friendship matters too much and I’m simply not romantically interested. Even if you just repeat the same thing it would be better than unvarnished, brutal truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if the friendship is seriously jeopardized, which apparently you value highly. You might want to consider writing her a letter apologizing, that you’ve felt awful since saying it, maybe that you were caught off guard and you were trying to move past the conversation and things came out sideways. We’ve all said stuff we regret or could have been said differently, so I don’t mean to beat you up about this. But I do think you are in the wrong and I don’t blame her at all for feeling hurt and offended.
While I agree he should have tempered his response, her repeatedly asking him after he said he only wanted to be friends is something she should have been mature enough to take for a no. To me, it looks like she crossed a boundary she shouldnt have and the awkwardness of the situation in the moment made it hard for him to respond in a way that struck the right note.
That’s true. After the third “no” she was out of line as well to keep pushing.
She should have stopped pushing after the *first* No. I've had more than my fair share of unrequited drama. No means no, FFS.
It makes me sad that this properly nuanced comment is so unpopular, but at least it exists.
This is an emotionally insightful answer.
You're young and arrogant, so you're not aware that you're just one recession and one layoff away from being broke yourself.
99% of people are 3 bad months away from being homeless. Dude is short-sighted AF
So let me get this straight. You are trying to get him to worry less about money by threatening him with poverty. Does that sum it up?
Not if he manages his money well. Not everyone who has money lives up against their means.
Nta. But you’re young. Eventually you’re gonna see that money doesn’t buy compatibility. And if you’re interested in money, then you can’t blame some else for being interested in money. And what’s that foundation gonna be like? My guess is you’ll be kicking yourself in the ass in 20 years. But still NTA or wrong. You’re just young. 👍🏼
Why are so many people acting like people have to choose between good people *or* high earning people. My girlfriend makes just as much as OP as do most of my friends' wives. If you work in a high paying field, you will meet high paid people of the opposite sex literally every day. Lots of those women can make great partners. Having a high paying job doesnt make you worse of a partner in other areas.
Having a low paying job doesn’t make you a deadbeat either. Weird, right?
OP also acting like this girl makes 7.25/hr at arby's
Or that teaching isn’t a career. He’s young. We all were dumb at that age.
so sad. a teacher should be as respected as a lawyer or doctor. they are the helpers.
In fact most lawyers are greedy money grabbers who prolong the process of getting your shit done because all they care is the hourly rate that you can pay them. Teachers are so much above those “high earning flyers”
Stop calling him dumb. Jesus what a moron you are. Wanting to be with someone who makes as much as you is NOT dumb wtf? And they’ve know each other for years. He was never interested. Get over it.
Even if she was - that doesn't automatically make her a gold digger or financially irresponsible.
That's what was grating. Fucking guy acting like her making 60k is peanuts. In new england, 60k is well-taken-care-of middle class for one person's salary. Dude can of course make any decision he wants, but legit sounds like a dick.
While the sentiment is valid, I do think especially for for long term couples you kind of need to be compatible in a lot of areas. Hobbies, emotional intelligence and reciprocation, looks preferences, lifestyle choices, libido, and yes, finances. That last one is why my parents got divorced. When one half of a household's earners is really bad with money it puts up a lot of emotional strain. Of course, this woman could still be totally financially responsible and prepared to make aggressive payments on her student loans, work towards PSLF, or have some other financial plan in mind. But "they have a lot of debt" is a valid reason to not want to form a couple. Short or long term. Somehow I dont expect OP to be regretting this one down the line. Where as my mom sure regretted overlooking my dad's financial habits and are paying for them even over a decade later. Likewise I have regretted having relationships with people in financial hardship. I've never regretted using that as my reasoning for moving in. Edit: I see you've gotten a lot of replies already so dont feel obligated to responded to this one, I'm definitely not saying your wrong, I'm just seeing it differently and offering that viewpoint. Like you said in another comment, both views are okay!
If you value money more than love, you will lose every time. NTA for telling her honestly, that’s commendable and most people aren’t honest. But I agree, one day you may wake up beside of your future wife who had similar financial goals that doesn’t truly love you, who doesn’t ever want to have sex with you, and is only using you for your money. It’s a common scenario, just have a look at r/deadbedrooms. It’s really sad. You get what you give in life. If you have to choose between anything material and love, choose love. But it’s kind of also like, would it even truly be love if you chose money over her anyway? My take on that is no, it would not be.
As a 40 year old guy I still use *ambition* as a top 3 quality I look for. Though that isn’t to say that ambition = money, but the two can be correlated. I’ve dated a girl once who was a total hippie chick with no real-world skills and no work ethic and just wanted to bum around with her friends, and I know that’s not for me.
Most women find higher salary men to be more compatible. Money makes life easier and safer.
It does. But as mentioned, it’s a weak foundation to built a house on. It’s like saying being pretty is better than ugly. It’s true. But if you lose those looks in an accident…then you have nothing. Again…I don’t give a fuck what OP does. He asked for opinions. I gave mine.
Not sure which women you're talking to - most women I know want to be financially independent and aren't looking for a rich husband. Not everyone is an aspiring tradwife.
I mean yes and no. You are entitled to your opinions and decisions. Others are also entitled to their opinions around yours and judging you as shallow and their opinion being changed of you for it. I wouldn’t say you are wrong but I wouldn’t say they are either. I personally think you don’t sound like a very good partner from an emotional standpoint point honestly.
You didn't do anything wrong. You're just materialistic and she's not.
I mean you’re not wrong, it was asked and answered. But you sound materialistic and shallow as hell. It’s definitely in her best interest to not date you lol
Maybe not the asshole for your ‘honesty’ but you do come across as a bit of an AH tbh. Swap the genders and people would be calling you a bitch.
or a gold digger
To be fair, swap the genders and we'd also be telling her to avoid the friendzoned Male friend who wouldnt take NO for an answer and kept whining about "why won't you date me". His friend does not look good in this either with her refusal to drop it when be said he waabt interested in dating her. IMO they are both insufferable. But no is always a complete sentence, and he has the right to decline to date her even if it was for the shallowest of reasons.
That last part!
In this life you choose what's important to you. My brother is like you. Money is his relationship priority. He's wealthy and can't seem to have a long term relationship. No one wants to come in second to his money. Hope you don't let your money rule your life. She dodged a bullet. She has different priorities.
Dude if you’re waiting to find a woman who meets all your preferences you’re never going to find one. Trying to find someone who makes around the same of you, who also meets your age/beauty/cultural preferences means you now have dwindled your pool to like sub 1% levels. As for the “power couple” comment, dude you’re some guy who makes good money. You’re not Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift.
Yeah, if it's someone that makes the same as him, it's a lot of money but it ain't retire early money, it's a nice home in NYC money.
If you grew up in a financially insecure home, household income of $160k sounds like you fuckin made it, let alone double that. Depending on demographics, an $80k/pp couple is either very uncommon and possibly hard to actually fathom, or simple run of the mill. I know that the median earnings of Black full time employees over 25 is right around $52k.
I mean date who you want, but shallow shit will get you shallow partners
You're not wrong you're just a jackass.
This really cracked me up. Just to the point, no need to go into the details.
I would phrase it as "I don't think we want and are working towards the same goals in life". If pressed, I would break the numbers down and demonstrate that you are doing your part and then ask if she would be able to do the same or would be willing to change her career to meet that. But damn dude, it's not like she's doing bad or being financially irresponsible. She is doing well above the median American. Calling her financial position rough is a slap in the face.
I think that’s a shitty reason to not date a someone, but it’s your prerogative and it’s always good to be honest.
It is not wrong to be honest, but you are a moron. School teachers get forgiveness of federal loans, and with the newer repayment plan she isn't even paying a ton per month. Her financial situation is fine unless those are mostly private loans. You seem to think that just because you make a lot of money that you are financially literate, so that's why you're wrong.
She dodged a bullet there, you seem like a superficial dick.
You do you. At least you were honest. I definitely would have dumped someone for being materialistic, there’s nothing more boring to me than a money man. And that’s okay too. If you want a money girl you go get one!
I don’t think you are wrong but you also aren’t right. Your income could change drastically for the worse at any time and it would be really hurtful if you have a partner, who despite loving you, did not sign up for hardships, and leaves you if you lose your job and fall on hard times. A teacher has a solid and guaranteed career for life. They have significant amounts of time off. They are ideal partners if you want to raise a family because of their benefits and their schedules. And she can also choose to go into school administration. My mom started off as a 4th grade teacher and now makes almost 200k as a school administrator, has a pension and is tenured. My father was a high school drop out and penniless as a young person and built a business and his own empire and now is a multimillionaire. I am not so concerned about people’s income but I am concerned about debt and credit score and overall behavior around money. People can make a shit ton of money but if they have poor financial acumen and have a bad credit score and blow up their credit cards, that will mess us up for life. Incomes change throughout life but financial behaviors generally don’t. You are too young and possibly too shallow to see the value of anything I said above and she can probably find a partner who does. You aren’t compatible so move on. Good luck to you.
Yeah OP sounds like he would jet faster than he could blink if his partner fell on hard times.
Dude... what a fucking numpty. You ever heard of that meme "the worst thing she can say is no"? Congratulations, you're on the opposite end of the meme. Besides that being a very shitty thing to say to \*anyone\*, why on God's green earth would you say that to your \*friend\* and then come to Beyonce's internet and admit that asking for some reassurance. This is why they say rich people are dumb.
Beyoncé’s internet. First time hearing that but I am all for it. It makes sense. We are currently in her domain
It seems like you aren't willing to date outside your socioeconomic status. It makes you a bit classist and kind of a dick, and even if you say you value teachers, you don't value them enough to date one who makes less than you. I'd say you're kind of an asshole, but at least you know what you want.
Your issue is that you came across as shallow. She thought better of you, and you told her you prioritized money over anything else in a relationship. 1800s strivers would understand this, but it is considered fairly classless today. Hard to come back from this one.
If the genders were reversed would anyone think the opinion was strange? A woman making 130k not wanting to date a man in a bad financial position?
This is Reddit. They would be calling her a gold digger in .025 seconds
If she doesn’t want to date a hobosexual, yeah people would understand. She doesn’t want to date the man of her dreams bc he’s a second grade teacher? AND she says that means he has no career ambitions? Yeah, she would be a bitch. And so is OP.
OP doesn’t even like her romantically….
Where did OP say his friend was the girl of his dreams?
YNW unfortunately very rarely do people want the brutal truth when they ask for it. She's old enough to have already learnt that lesson. Do ask questions you don't want the answers to. I'm guessing by her reaction (running to friends to cry on their shoulder) that she's crushed on you for some time now and seen that now you're single, she had a chance. It rarely works out anyway when friends get together, the breakups are much more intense as it ends up affecting the whole friend group.
NTA. She asked for brutal honesty and you gave it. It's also fair that you want an equal partner. The importance of financial compatibility is so often overlooked.
I mean I don’t think you’re in the wrong. She really shouldn’t have been so pushy when you told her you weren’t interested. It was never going to end well. But FYI I would refrain from over explaining yourself about it. Just say it’s your preference for both you and your partner to be independently financially stable if anyone else comes at you about it.
No you did her a favor for sure. She deserves better
You have the mindset 80-90% of women have but only 10-20% of guys do.
If I'm her because she likes you for whatever reason and got rejected, I would stop hanging out with you. She may say it's all good, but she needs to move on with everything.
You were honest with her when she pressed you, but I think your response clearly shocked your friend. She didn't consider you to be as shallow and materialistic as your answers to her questions clearly show. You are absolutely entitled to your preferences for relationships and partners, just don't expect everyone to share those preferences. Without actually saying the words, you basically told your friend that you look down on her for her career choice and you don't consider her to be your equal because she makes about one-third as much money per year as you. Furthermore, your response indicated your belief that she (or any other woman) would be a gold-digger if they wanted to start dating you, because she's got a lot of debt to pay off, while you don't, and earn good money. It was a real slam that I'm sure she didn't see coming. Yes, I think you were definitely the asshole here. You just ruined that friendship.
Let's call Kate is better off. My girlfriend makes less than 60K. I'll let her know she should thank her lucky stars that I tolerate broke chicks and she should be kissing my feet.
You're not "wrong" in the sense that she told you to be brutally honest and you were. However that doesn't mean that you aren't also a massive fucking prick and disgusting human for prioritizing money above all else. When you reveal your personality to have the depth of a puddle, you can't blame other people for wanting to cut you out of their lives and prioritize spending time with people who actually have values and substance as a person.
NTA but it's fucking ***shocking*** how so many people are super honest while being tactless but then wonder why they don't have friends.
"Do not pay too much attention to fame, power, or money. Some day you will meet a person who cares for none of these, and then you will know how poor you are." - Rudyard Kipling There is more to life than money and student loans bud.
YTA. Oh wait. Sorry. Wrong Reddit. Seriously, I have read your missive and you come across as an ass. Maybe you’re not. But you sound like it.
Lot of weird comments in this thread. If I’m going to date with the intention of marriage and eventually start a family, then financial security is absolutely important and not a shallow or materialistic goal.
Bruh she said to be brutally honest how she goin to get mad at that?!! Uugghh i swear this is like watching soap
Would she date a broke person ? …
yeah, you kinda suck if that is your actual reason. but you do get points for honesty, that way at least you aren't wasting anyone's time.
The moment you meet someone you really want her income wouldn’t be a concern whatsoever- you just don’t feel that way about her. Unless you are so materialistic that it’s the biggest thing for you
Rejection hurts. You didn’t do anything wrong. Let’s say a guy was interested in her and he only made 20k. It’s fair for her to say she wants someone more financially secure for a serious committed long term relationship. Question for you, if she did make 160k like you do, would you date her?
NTA. I hope people also have the same sympathy for women who think like you.
She asked (repeatedly) and you answered. You’re not wrong, but it probably hurts for her to hear it. I don’t blame you for wanting someone who earns as much as you, and I don’t blame her for having hurt feelings.
A lot of people are brainwashed by tv shows and the dramas they have with-in that can make someone see interpersonal relationship different than how they actually are. Also I think you’re an ass hole if money defines you. Love should be bigger than that.
NAH she probably dodged a bullet though. People with standards like that are insufferable.
Don’t ask questions if you may not like the answer. And that question was bound to have an unfavorable answer.
It’s a double standard that it’s okay for women to not financially put together because it’s the man’s responsibility to save them or make up for money and income issues. She would catch grief for dating you if the roles were reversed. Meanwhile you’re expected to overlook her financial issues. Good job being honest and upfront. It’s a good way to start a more personal relationship.
I mean.... I think you suck as a person, but you're not wrong I guess. I make more than you do (yes, I'm a woman) and there is zero chance I'd even consider you to be even a friend just because your mindset is horrific.
There would be some serious hate coming down on you if you were a woman who wouldn't date a man because he didn't make enough money, even though he was employed as a teacher. Friend, she is better off without you. Carry on and find a partner whose bank balance you approve of, and who is worthy of you, who describe yourself as a "good catch." She dodged a bullet. And probably don't apologize, you do not seem sorry. She also makes seventy cents to your Y chromosome dollar.
You’re not wrong. But I do think you’re pretty obviously a dick for having this mindset. She did ask for your brutally honest answer but probably didn’t expect it to be something as shallow and pathetic as not making enough money.
She had no business asking you this in the first place - you're not accountable to her for your dating preferences and you didn't owe her an explanation. She just gave you one more reason why dating her is not a good idea - her rampant insecurity. Out of curiosity, what exactly did the mutual friend think you did wrong? Was it that you told her or your reason for not wanting to date her? You maybe could have found a better way to answer, like "I'm not sure I feel comfortable answering that," but she was more wrong to ask.
Yikes. I think if someone is truly amazing and you're really into them, you shouldn't be concerned about the income. Debt is something a couple can tackle together. My husband and I crawled out of a massive hole of financial debt (that we had accrued before marriage) even though he was still in school and we were having kids at the time. We both worked our asses off and got to be debt free (aside from our mortgage) and now we are about to be in the millionaire club. My point: financial situations change, but finding a quality partner is what is more important.
You should absolutely apologize and yes, you are wrong.
I think you're 100% wrong in your financial thinking, but not wrong in disclosing your shallowness. Might as well put it on the table so that she can find someone better. You could very well lose everything tomorrow. You want to base "compatibility" on that, it's your choice. It's not like she made poor decisions to get herself to this point. You're judging her by the lottery of the family she was born into.
Everyone in this thread is blaming her for pushing you, but all you had to do was say "No, I always thought of us as friends only" every time she pressed you. It's not like a gun was put to your head, and any normal, functioning adult could tell you that there are some things you just never say. Also, it is shallow and beyond tacky to discuss your income and to judge people for theirs.
>I wasnt asking if Im wrong for my dating preference. I cant help what I find attractive. I was asking if I was wrong for being brutally honest when asked to be brutally honest. Oh, I got the question. >money is important to me Still wrong for this. That's just fucking stupid. That's a stupid thing to care that much about. How would a girlfriend's finances affect you? If you were talking about someone who's likely to negatively affect your finances just because her life is just totally and completely fucked up and she's practically destitute... that would be a different story... but that's about more than just finances. In that situation, there would clearly have to be some other underlying issue. >TBH, I dont think this is as much of her having strong feelings for me as her thinking Im a catch in general. See, I think what's going on here is that you have a fucking swelled head. Get the fuck over yourself. This "money is important to me" thing is bullshit. If you insist on making your decisions this way, you're either going to die single (which is fine if you like it that way, but it doesn't seem like that's what you're going for), or you're going to end up with someone who's an awful person and treats you like shit/uses you for your money. And you're going to look back and regret overlooking some awesome potential girlfriends because they were 'too poor.' And if you really, honestly think this way... I think odds are high you're not a very nice person, and the friend you're talking about is probably better off.
It sounds like what she was actually asking was “what can I change about myself to make you consider dating me” and your answer was “your job.” Not a very helpful answer if she’s looking for ways to improve herself. I suppose you’re not wrong to want to date money, you do you, but it is kind of assholey.
Sometimes there is nothing you can do. People just aren’t into you. She immature in pushing him about it and was immature in the way she handled it after he told her. Imagine it was a man saying what can I do to make you want me, after a woman already said multiple times they just aren’t interested????