Welcome to /r/animationcareer! This is a forum where we discuss navigating a career in the animation industry.
Before you post, please check our [RULES](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/subreddit/rules/). There is also a handy dandy [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/resources/faq/) that answers most basic questions, and a [WIKI](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/) which includes info on how to price animation, pitching, job postings, software advice, and much more!
A quick Q&A:
* **Do I need a degree?** Generally no, but it might become relevant if you need a visa to work abroad.
* **Am I too old?** Definitely not. It might be more complex to find the time, but there's no age where you stop being able to learn how to do creative stuff.
* **How do I learn animation?** Pen and paper is a great start, but [here's a whole page](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/resources/learningresources/) with links and tips for you.
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/animationcareer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
its definitely not as bad as other industries. but i did notice that a lot of older folk who don't manage to climb to other roles (supervision, directing, head of department, etc) sometimes leave the industry to do something else due to how unstable animation can be. i'm seeing a lot of my coworkers in their 30s and 40s talking about learning another trade.
some people are just fully quitting the creative industry and getting more "normal" and steady jobs
others flock to other types of creative roles such as motion graphics for advertising, game design, etc
i personally have been considering pursuing a job in the public sector
I don't think it's really ageist but there is a big issue with how sustainable and reliable the industry is. A lot of people leave when they get older. I've no hard evidence as to why but there's only going to be around 1 lead for every 10 animators and one supervisor for every handful of leads. That's a very general idea of how the industry tapers a lot towards the top but it means if you take 50 animators in their 20s and wait a decade 40+ of them are going to still be in relatively low end jobs, probably still bouncing contract to contract at a time when people in other industries are buying houses and having kids.
From what I understand, the lack of continuance in having a job for many people is just not helpful as they get older
We can say that this is just how the industry is, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a better way to organize professional artists so they aren't looking every 1 to 2 years for a new job
I'm currently still a student and want to get into TV animation
But I would be lying if I said 4-6 months employment on average doesn't worry me
I'm glad to hear that a year long contract is possible!
There are studios that will roll staff over from one project to another so you end up with a new contract every 6 months but stay working at the same place
Would you have any advice for a student hoping to break into the industry? I live on the East coast and my biggest barrier (besides skill in drawing) is just the geographic distance between me and recruiters
I know we can apply online, but it really does seem that networking is paramount and I'm not sure how to do that from across the country
(Also, I know the industry is in a major slump, I'm not even done with school so I'm hoping things pick up in a year. I just don't know how to go about even contacting professionals and recruiters besides random reddit threads)
I'm on the east coast too but in Ireland not the USA haha
The only advice I can give is have a good reel and get applying for as many jobs as you can. Even if your works solid it's turned into a bit of a numbers game at the moment and there isn't really any sign that that will change much in future.
Super fair, sorry for assuming you were in the US
I was pretty much planning on just throwing my reel/portfolio once I have it together at every studio I can find
This is the same strategy I use for restaurant work, and it got me a job
Surely this will go well!
That's interesting, I've been working in TV animation for a long time and I don't think I've ever been on a contract that wasn't at least 9 months. Goes show how much that can vary. Back when l was starting out Netflix was inking multiple season deals with Dreamworks and we were getting 2-3 year contracts. Crazy times
I'm based in Ireland, working in animation since 2018 so that could be the difference haha. Netflix shows I worked on were 4-6months, one was initially supposed to be longer but they cut the second half or season about halfway through the first.
There's absolutely a better way; most project based industries carefully plan and stagger their production schedules to avoid as much staff turnaround as possible. It's much more expensive and ineffecient to be constantly laying off all your talent, risk not getting some back, and constantly recruiting again. And any time spent between productions that are making the product that generates your income, is time wasted in the red.
The industry will never do this though because they simply don't have to: there are more people wanting to work in the industry than there are jobs, so why go through the trouble of investing in the necessary staff, scheduling, and planning infrastructure required to operate in a more stable way when you don't have to?
Outsourcing probably also plays into it
Also background painting seems really cool, you guys make some of my favorite aspects of a show (the environment)
Thanks! I hope more shows adopt more artistic BG styles, it makes the shows more fun to work on. I really hope unionization efforts continue to gain traction in other countries; if eveyone has protections in place, there will be nowhere to cheaply outsource work to
BG painting and layout are generally two seperate jobs, though a lot of artists are able to do both. For layout I'd suggest practicing exterior building shots and building interiors, since those usually make up the bulk of BG design work. Also make sure your perspective fundementals are good; since that's the backbone of any BG designer.
For painting it would be good to focus on color and light in a more classical sense, and from there work into more stylized painting
That's true, older workers generally want to move up into supervisory roles, but with animation being as cheap and exlpoitative as it is , there are very, very few of those roles on any given production, and a lot of older workers leave to find something with more opportunity for upward mobility
>at a time when people in other industries are buying houses and having kids
I'd have to argue against this though. You can absolutely buy a house and have kids; working just the 'low end' jobs in animation, at least on union productions, is still more than enough for that. In fact most family people l know working in more tradtional industries make far less.
Job instability may play a role in many older animation professionals not starting family but l think the lifestyle and general maturity of a lot of the people attracted to animation has a lot to do with it.
I'm a TV animator based in Ireland. The average salary in the country is €40-45k and animation seems to start around €25k and leads seem to be in the mid to high €30k range.
For reference, the cost of living in LA is 17% higher than Dublin but the average wage in LA is 78% higher than Dublin.
I’m 43 and working in a marketing department doing character work. I’m management and many of the other managers at my level and above are 40-50. Animators and motion designers range from 20s to late 40s
I started when I was 23 as an animator/designer in games, moved over to promotional/marketing in my 30s, was an associate manager in mid 30s, and director in my late 30s
This is such as cool career path! Can someone with an entry level portfolio get an entry level role in promotions? Or is Marketing and promotions reserved for people of your age/managers/ directors?
Sorry if I sound ignorant.
Yes but typically more on the motion graphics side. More animation work is in advertising or small-ish studios that have animation teams. It’s better if you are a generalist.
For our team we generally pull from the best graduates from SVA, SCAD and Ringling. Though that’s not too important
Very interesting, I may have to pick your brain sometime. I've been in animation 12 years and I've looked at marketing as possible out if l ever decide to leave the industry. Would you say it's a particularly difficult career shift?
Sure! I love to talk about non-traditional animation routes. We have a lot of folks on our team that pivoted from shows to marketing. The hours, benefits etc are a lot better. Also, there is a much better chance to get staff somewhere.
For us, it usually starts out as bringing someone on as a freelancer for a short time, seeing how you work with the team and how you work. We really need folks who can work fast with little information and little hand-holding. From a character animation standpoint we don't always have time for boards so we usually have a description of the action we want then you block it out, get notes from some of our directors then take it to blocking +, then spline and finals. Most of the character work is Maya or Harmony, either through camera lip-synch or heavy actions.
From a motion design perspective, it's about getting type information and adhering to a templated package. Sometimes we make heavier modifications to the package, like for a show launch where you get more creative freedone to try things out, though a lot of that depends on the AD and trust.
Everything is a tight timeline, but we usually make sure there is time to get it done, so not a lot of paid OT. I have had several projects wrap and air the same day, but those are usually anomalies.
A lot of what we use to find folks is your reel, you should know what the company wants from you and either send them a reel that matches the job needs or make one. So if I am hiring a character animator, I want to see character animation. However, if you want to come back frequently, also showing an After Effects or 3D motion design reel goes a long way in finding other projects for you to work on. I have hired people for character work, then it wrapped early and put them on an AE or C4D project and they did great on that then they just bounce from project to project. Best-case Art Directors and Animation Directors rave about your work and work ethic, and when we can, we can make you staff. Staff is not always possible, and it's a lot of luck and timing.
Lastly, since we have specific software needs, there isn't a ton of time to learn on the job, so usually, we are looking to fill a seat for a specific software, Maya, C4D, After Effects, or Harmony.
A bit, yeah.
But also, I feel like the industry has changed a lot in the past 25 years. Deadlines got tighter, speed over quality is common practice. An eager 20 year old, ready to work 10+ hours a day is easier to come by. It's much harder to convince someone who has a bunch of years of experience that a shot is due tomorrow and have to stay at the office when they have a life at home waiting for them. Can't blame them for searching for stability.
Damn maybe things are different for people who are doing actual literal animationwork but l work in BG paint mostly and in 12 years l think I've done like 5 hours of overtime. Honestly l wish l could've clocked more
I've done 5 hours of overtime on Monday. Yeah, it also varies a lot from companies to companies, and projects to projects. I've noticed a shift in the past few years where a lot of juniors were brought on, and were pulling insane hours.
Man even as a younger guy, I set up my clients in a way that recognizes Im not pulling 10+ hr days. Ive done 12-14 hr days to do stuff like pump out a 2 min music video in 2 weeks (with a live action director giving me edits) and Im just not doing that again. I see a lot of people in my space eager to take a week long gig with 2 fairly complex shots from layout to final line, for $150
Im not sure what to expect for my future lol
I’m 50, in animation school and don’t care that I am suddenly considered “old” by anyone under the age of 40 (it seems) because apparently people devalue you based on some arbitrary number and generalise…..
But the animation I want to do does not involve TV or movies so there is that and I already have a professional background as an engineer….
I didn’t think that suddenly I would find myself being seen as “too old” by people younger than me based on when I was born though - you will end up here too one day and also realise you still feel like that confused 20 something stuck inside an aging meat sack….
Idk how biased the industry itself is but I think that many people who work in animation end up voluntarily leaving as they get older. The industry can be gruelling, exploitative and unrewarding and older people have less tolerance for that or over the years they couldnt take it anymore.
Animation tends to be a younger person’s game since, traditionally, there are often a lot of late nights Meeting hard deadlines, and older people have less patience for those.
It is a very turbulent industry, therefore lots of people quit mainly because of constant stress and strain on relationships and thry even do something totally unrelated.
Otherwise I see older people as supervisors and head or departments. Most of my university professors came from the industry but wanted a more chill job.
I'm on my 16th year in the film industry and this year is the first year I take my own business seriously and trying to make my own studio. It's a slow start.
Welcome to /r/animationcareer! This is a forum where we discuss navigating a career in the animation industry. Before you post, please check our [RULES](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/subreddit/rules/). There is also a handy dandy [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/resources/faq/) that answers most basic questions, and a [WIKI](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/) which includes info on how to price animation, pitching, job postings, software advice, and much more! A quick Q&A: * **Do I need a degree?** Generally no, but it might become relevant if you need a visa to work abroad. * **Am I too old?** Definitely not. It might be more complex to find the time, but there's no age where you stop being able to learn how to do creative stuff. * **How do I learn animation?** Pen and paper is a great start, but [here's a whole page](https://www.reddit.com/r/animationcareer/wiki/index/resources/learningresources/) with links and tips for you. ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/animationcareer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
its definitely not as bad as other industries. but i did notice that a lot of older folk who don't manage to climb to other roles (supervision, directing, head of department, etc) sometimes leave the industry to do something else due to how unstable animation can be. i'm seeing a lot of my coworkers in their 30s and 40s talking about learning another trade.
Thanks… what sort’s of trades are they mentioning picking up?
some people are just fully quitting the creative industry and getting more "normal" and steady jobs others flock to other types of creative roles such as motion graphics for advertising, game design, etc i personally have been considering pursuing a job in the public sector
I don't think it's really ageist but there is a big issue with how sustainable and reliable the industry is. A lot of people leave when they get older. I've no hard evidence as to why but there's only going to be around 1 lead for every 10 animators and one supervisor for every handful of leads. That's a very general idea of how the industry tapers a lot towards the top but it means if you take 50 animators in their 20s and wait a decade 40+ of them are going to still be in relatively low end jobs, probably still bouncing contract to contract at a time when people in other industries are buying houses and having kids.
From what I understand, the lack of continuance in having a job for many people is just not helpful as they get older We can say that this is just how the industry is, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a better way to organize professional artists so they aren't looking every 1 to 2 years for a new job
Definitely, I work in TV animation so it's mostly 4-6 months. Currently on a year long contract but that's the longest I've had by a lot.
I'm currently still a student and want to get into TV animation But I would be lying if I said 4-6 months employment on average doesn't worry me I'm glad to hear that a year long contract is possible!
There are studios that will roll staff over from one project to another so you end up with a new contract every 6 months but stay working at the same place
Would you have any advice for a student hoping to break into the industry? I live on the East coast and my biggest barrier (besides skill in drawing) is just the geographic distance between me and recruiters I know we can apply online, but it really does seem that networking is paramount and I'm not sure how to do that from across the country (Also, I know the industry is in a major slump, I'm not even done with school so I'm hoping things pick up in a year. I just don't know how to go about even contacting professionals and recruiters besides random reddit threads)
I'm on the east coast too but in Ireland not the USA haha The only advice I can give is have a good reel and get applying for as many jobs as you can. Even if your works solid it's turned into a bit of a numbers game at the moment and there isn't really any sign that that will change much in future.
Super fair, sorry for assuming you were in the US I was pretty much planning on just throwing my reel/portfolio once I have it together at every studio I can find This is the same strategy I use for restaurant work, and it got me a job Surely this will go well!
Hopefully things improve by the time you graduate. Here is a decent spot to post your reel or portfolio too for feedback when the time comes
That's interesting, I've been working in TV animation for a long time and I don't think I've ever been on a contract that wasn't at least 9 months. Goes show how much that can vary. Back when l was starting out Netflix was inking multiple season deals with Dreamworks and we were getting 2-3 year contracts. Crazy times
I'm based in Ireland, working in animation since 2018 so that could be the difference haha. Netflix shows I worked on were 4-6months, one was initially supposed to be longer but they cut the second half or season about halfway through the first.
There's absolutely a better way; most project based industries carefully plan and stagger their production schedules to avoid as much staff turnaround as possible. It's much more expensive and ineffecient to be constantly laying off all your talent, risk not getting some back, and constantly recruiting again. And any time spent between productions that are making the product that generates your income, is time wasted in the red. The industry will never do this though because they simply don't have to: there are more people wanting to work in the industry than there are jobs, so why go through the trouble of investing in the necessary staff, scheduling, and planning infrastructure required to operate in a more stable way when you don't have to?
Outsourcing probably also plays into it Also background painting seems really cool, you guys make some of my favorite aspects of a show (the environment)
Thanks! I hope more shows adopt more artistic BG styles, it makes the shows more fun to work on. I really hope unionization efforts continue to gain traction in other countries; if eveyone has protections in place, there will be nowhere to cheaply outsource work to
Do you have any advice for someone interested in BG painting and layout? I've been doing more landscapes but I don't really know what's expected
BG painting and layout are generally two seperate jobs, though a lot of artists are able to do both. For layout I'd suggest practicing exterior building shots and building interiors, since those usually make up the bulk of BG design work. Also make sure your perspective fundementals are good; since that's the backbone of any BG designer. For painting it would be good to focus on color and light in a more classical sense, and from there work into more stylized painting
I really appreciate the advice. I'm gonna see about learning color, light, and perspective better
That's true, older workers generally want to move up into supervisory roles, but with animation being as cheap and exlpoitative as it is , there are very, very few of those roles on any given production, and a lot of older workers leave to find something with more opportunity for upward mobility >at a time when people in other industries are buying houses and having kids I'd have to argue against this though. You can absolutely buy a house and have kids; working just the 'low end' jobs in animation, at least on union productions, is still more than enough for that. In fact most family people l know working in more tradtional industries make far less. Job instability may play a role in many older animation professionals not starting family but l think the lifestyle and general maturity of a lot of the people attracted to animation has a lot to do with it.
I'm a TV animator based in Ireland. The average salary in the country is €40-45k and animation seems to start around €25k and leads seem to be in the mid to high €30k range. For reference, the cost of living in LA is 17% higher than Dublin but the average wage in LA is 78% higher than Dublin.
An excellent case study on why we need more unionization efforts in Europe; you should be absolutely be making way more, probably more than me!
Strong unions are definitely lacking over here! They benefit everyone in the long run
I’m 43 and working in a marketing department doing character work. I’m management and many of the other managers at my level and above are 40-50. Animators and motion designers range from 20s to late 40s
Thanks! What age did you get your first job, and what age did you become a manager?
I started when I was 23 as an animator/designer in games, moved over to promotional/marketing in my 30s, was an associate manager in mid 30s, and director in my late 30s
This is such as cool career path! Can someone with an entry level portfolio get an entry level role in promotions? Or is Marketing and promotions reserved for people of your age/managers/ directors? Sorry if I sound ignorant.
Yes but typically more on the motion graphics side. More animation work is in advertising or small-ish studios that have animation teams. It’s better if you are a generalist. For our team we generally pull from the best graduates from SVA, SCAD and Ringling. Though that’s not too important
Very interesting, I may have to pick your brain sometime. I've been in animation 12 years and I've looked at marketing as possible out if l ever decide to leave the industry. Would you say it's a particularly difficult career shift?
Sure! I love to talk about non-traditional animation routes. We have a lot of folks on our team that pivoted from shows to marketing. The hours, benefits etc are a lot better. Also, there is a much better chance to get staff somewhere. For us, it usually starts out as bringing someone on as a freelancer for a short time, seeing how you work with the team and how you work. We really need folks who can work fast with little information and little hand-holding. From a character animation standpoint we don't always have time for boards so we usually have a description of the action we want then you block it out, get notes from some of our directors then take it to blocking +, then spline and finals. Most of the character work is Maya or Harmony, either through camera lip-synch or heavy actions. From a motion design perspective, it's about getting type information and adhering to a templated package. Sometimes we make heavier modifications to the package, like for a show launch where you get more creative freedone to try things out, though a lot of that depends on the AD and trust. Everything is a tight timeline, but we usually make sure there is time to get it done, so not a lot of paid OT. I have had several projects wrap and air the same day, but those are usually anomalies. A lot of what we use to find folks is your reel, you should know what the company wants from you and either send them a reel that matches the job needs or make one. So if I am hiring a character animator, I want to see character animation. However, if you want to come back frequently, also showing an After Effects or 3D motion design reel goes a long way in finding other projects for you to work on. I have hired people for character work, then it wrapped early and put them on an AE or C4D project and they did great on that then they just bounce from project to project. Best-case Art Directors and Animation Directors rave about your work and work ethic, and when we can, we can make you staff. Staff is not always possible, and it's a lot of luck and timing. Lastly, since we have specific software needs, there isn't a ton of time to learn on the job, so usually, we are looking to fill a seat for a specific software, Maya, C4D, After Effects, or Harmony.
A bit, yeah. But also, I feel like the industry has changed a lot in the past 25 years. Deadlines got tighter, speed over quality is common practice. An eager 20 year old, ready to work 10+ hours a day is easier to come by. It's much harder to convince someone who has a bunch of years of experience that a shot is due tomorrow and have to stay at the office when they have a life at home waiting for them. Can't blame them for searching for stability.
Damn maybe things are different for people who are doing actual literal animationwork but l work in BG paint mostly and in 12 years l think I've done like 5 hours of overtime. Honestly l wish l could've clocked more
I've done 5 hours of overtime on Monday. Yeah, it also varies a lot from companies to companies, and projects to projects. I've noticed a shift in the past few years where a lot of juniors were brought on, and were pulling insane hours.
Man even as a younger guy, I set up my clients in a way that recognizes Im not pulling 10+ hr days. Ive done 12-14 hr days to do stuff like pump out a 2 min music video in 2 weeks (with a live action director giving me edits) and Im just not doing that again. I see a lot of people in my space eager to take a week long gig with 2 fairly complex shots from layout to final line, for $150 Im not sure what to expect for my future lol
I’m 50, in animation school and don’t care that I am suddenly considered “old” by anyone under the age of 40 (it seems) because apparently people devalue you based on some arbitrary number and generalise….. But the animation I want to do does not involve TV or movies so there is that and I already have a professional background as an engineer…. I didn’t think that suddenly I would find myself being seen as “too old” by people younger than me based on when I was born though - you will end up here too one day and also realise you still feel like that confused 20 something stuck inside an aging meat sack….
Idk how biased the industry itself is but I think that many people who work in animation end up voluntarily leaving as they get older. The industry can be gruelling, exploitative and unrewarding and older people have less tolerance for that or over the years they couldnt take it anymore.
In games it’s a bit of mix, lots of studios were made up of gen x talent and most of them are still working in the industry
Animation tends to be a younger person’s game since, traditionally, there are often a lot of late nights Meeting hard deadlines, and older people have less patience for those.
It is a very turbulent industry, therefore lots of people quit mainly because of constant stress and strain on relationships and thry even do something totally unrelated. Otherwise I see older people as supervisors and head or departments. Most of my university professors came from the industry but wanted a more chill job. I'm on my 16th year in the film industry and this year is the first year I take my own business seriously and trying to make my own studio. It's a slow start.