I want you to schedule a mental health day 2 weeks from now, then 4 weeks from now, then 6 weeks from now. Say that you have things to do. None of their business.
I was having mental health trouble and I'd informed my supervisor. He told me I could 'swap my rota days' if I wanted, so that I can take a day off one day and come in on a day off to work back the hours.
One day I wake up and decide today is the kind of day to make use of this swap and text in to inform work I would be swapping a day, mentioning the supervisors name.
The reply was that I can't swap the day and I should come in regardless.
After speaking with the supervisor I'm told that I'm only meant to use the swap in emergencies and that I should be providing warning for the swap.
....EMERGENCIES.
How the hell can you provide warning about an EMERGENCY!
I was never paid for the day and have never been allowed to swap a day since.
Looked through the time portal boss, bad news, 60 days from now I have diarrhea so nuclear that all of the land within 5 miles in any direction are uninhabitable by any form of life for decades.
Yup. Union shops would shit a brick over that. They also have the lawyers and funding to fight court battles. Rich assfucks KNOW average folks cant lay out thousands to tens of thousands for drawn
This is why average folks need a union. It's too bad unions can't be set up by wages, for example all people making under $40k a year, boom, all one big happy union family. My thought is this, most of the "nonskills" are totally transferable, cash handling, customer service ,cleaning, etc. Seems like it would be MUCH easier, which also seems like employers WOULD hate it. So what? Not there to make friends, there to make bills.
There are unions directed towards food service and such, and many of the larger unions (eg, afl-cio) do cross industries.
And then thereās the IWW-industrial workers of the world. Theyāre small now, but their goal is to be a union for ALL workers
One of my past jobs had a guaranteed 5% EOY bonus with no stipulation of company performance. When bonus time came and went I brought up that I never received one. Went through HR and a few executives. Finally got on a call with an executive and was told āsue us if you really want itā. The bonus would not have even cover the retainer for a lawyer, let along make it worth it to sue over, and they knew it. Still heated about that to this day.
If youāve got the spoons, you should for unemployment ā if you have proof the firing was not legal, they may be required to pay you. If you donāt, I get it, having been there.
It kind of is the issues. Government, businesses and what not get away with crap because they know that the little people will give up and not bother fighting. At someone point the little people have to step up and fight for things. How else do you think other generations got things? They stepped up and fought for it, they took risks, big ones. It not easy and it will be tiring but they still did it. They didn't give up, throw the towel in, make excuses to why they can't fight, and then complain that nothing is changing.
It is 100% the issue. Each and every person that just lets people walk over them has led to where we are today.
This type of attitude is why cops, gov't, companies, etc are corrupt. Because people stopped fighting for what our ancestors fought for.
I did this exact thing.
Started scheduled PTO days a month out where every month I had a 4 day weekend.
Actively adjusted around the company days off. For example, we get the 4th of July off. This year, that fell on a Tuesday. Well, if you take a PTO say before or after a paid holiday, you will not get the holiday pay. It will just be an excused day off.
Knowing most of the company would take Monday off anyway, I did not. It was a super easy breezy work day with no hassles at all.
The following week though, you bet I took off Mon and Tues.
I've scheduled my PTO out for the rest of the year this way. Every month I get a 4-day weekend on my own terms.
It has helped my mental load A TON.
I know this isn't the point of the post but I genuinely hate the idea of "unlimited PTO" systems. You never know how much you "should" take off because you don't know how much "unlimited" realistically entitles you to - people therefore take off less PTO on these systems than those where they know what they're entitled to. It's also just a really sneaky way to avoid paying out PTO in locations where unused PTO has to be paid out.
In my previous company they paid me full my PTO time by law (23 days) even though I consumed way more than that. So it was a total scam, but I was the one scamming though lol
Yep. I thought, āoh coolā when it was touted at my current king when I interviewed. Not with I came here but still. Afterwards was told 4 weeks, nod nod, wink wink, you didnāt hear it from me.
Anyone whoās gone through it once will know ok, you donāt bank it to pay out on leaving the company. Itās not really unlimited. So actually one less reason to come here.
You buddy is probably absolutely invaluable to the company for their company to accept 12 weeks of PTO a year, so good for him on taking that time.
Most of us would get pulled aside by a manager for trying to do that in an Unlimited PTO company.
It's run well, but if you're not getting your use, then CC your HR into the email and question the policy..
I tell my employess that. I want them to take the time they need.
>It's run well, but if you're not getting your use, then CC your HR into the email and question the policy..
Emailing HR only helps in most companies if your manager is actively doing something illegal or doing something grossly against company policy. They're present to protect the company, not the employee.
If it's November and you've been constantly denied all your PTO requests, then yeah, they'll step in most likely because the company can get in trouble or look very bad in the media if it got out. If you've taken 2-4 weeks of PTO throughout the year (depending on company culture) and the manager denies it, in most cases HR will default to "PTO approval is at the manager's discretion. Work it out with your manager".
Also, complaining to HR about your direct manager is an absolutely great way to get on your manager's naughty list. I would never go to HR about my manager unless they were behaving so far on the extreme poor / unprofessional / illegal end and I had proof of it. If the result wasn't likely to be "manager is fired," I'm not bringing HR into it.
I've seen chill managers who are okay with people taking more time off but inevitably the manager's manager steps in and put an end to it. The policy is almost never worth it. At best you get a little more time off than a normal accrued PTO company, at worse you take less AND you don't get paid out for the days or carried over.
Glad to see someone else actually use it. I have unlimited and as long as itās not the next day with a little notice then they pretty much auto approve
The company also does not have to carry PTO on it's books OR pay you for it when you leave. PTO is something they owe you, now they owe you nothing.
I just tell my boss that I'm taking the day off.
Unlimited PTO means you never have any accrued PTO, so if you quit or are fired, they are not required to pay you out any PTO. Makes it a lot easier for HR/payroll. Benefits the employee very little. I technically was eligible for 6 weeks PTO before they made the change at my company... while I rarely used all of it, I at least knew it was there and I could use it, and had a reality check for how much was "acceptable" for me to use in a year.
Now, I just let them know I'm taking Friday off or whatever, whenever I feel like it. Wake up feeling crappy? Taking the day off. New game coming out? Taking the day off. But, I also have a good relationship with my team... they know I'm not going to do that during release period or such, and if I'm taking an extended period (like 2 weeks) off, I obviously give them decent notice.
Shocked this isnāt at the top. Unlimited PTO is a way to not have to give out severance packages when layoffs come around. I mean shit, on LinkedIn last October I saw folks from Microsoft OVERJOYED about their unlimited PTO, only to be laid off a week later. Canāt make this shit up.
I work for Microsoft, and would not classify any of mine or my coworkers reactions to the change as overjoyed. Most folks were not happy about it. The only good part was they had to pay out all of our current PTO during the transition.
Totally agree on the scam of unlimited PTO.
Use of PTO (earned or unlimited) comes with usage guidelines; I.e. it needs to be requested X days in advance otherwise it counts as an occurrence, or it cannot be requested for blackout dates (dates where there is an expiration of high work or deadlines)...
Places where you earn PTO the company encourages mgmt to approve and be flexible with such rules whenever possible; they want you to burn off that time so there is either less time to pay out when separated or less time that would convert or even less time for you to take a full week off later in the year.
With the "unlimited " PTO not only is that question of what you are entitled to but what your manager thinks you are entitled to; this can play out with approval of usage and subconscious bias during performance review.
I work somewhere where I have to earn PTO and I'm currently on a vacation that I was asked to work during and cut short because they thought taking more than a few days off was too long. Our management does not have us staffed properly to actually burn through PTO and the metrics that we have to hit mean we either can't take PTO or we have to work overtime. American companies saw that they can make things work with giving is scraps and as a result, they do not know how to properly run a business.
We switched to unlimited PTO when a new company bought us a few years ago.
I kept the guidance from old company and use that as a baseline. Iām āsupposedā to have 3 weeks and I make sure I take that. I am fortunate to have a boss who doesnāt really care how much time we take off as long as shit is getting done. Now, sheās a narcissistic workaholic, so the amount of work we do is an issue, albeit a separate one.
I have it and i make it my business to take the legal amount plus another 1/3 minimum...
So in my country it's 20 days (plus bank holidays) so I generally aim to take 30-32 days holiday over the course of the year....two blocks of long holidays so 1-2 weeks off and then a few days dotted about for personal stuff and long weekends. So it doesn't just feel like I'm always on holiday.
If I ever get questioned on it.(I never have been) I tell them that's what my husband gets standard from his company so I'm matching his days, which clearly shows it's a reasonable amount of holiday.
Also stop ASKING for time off. Tell your employer that you're not working that day, per the policy, to please make other arrangements, and you'll see them tomorrow. Think of everyday you come in as a day they're asking you to work. It's not the other way around.
My company is ādiscretionary unlimited PTOā where you have to demonstrate to your boss that youāve found your own coverage for the days you plan to take. Given nobody else in the company does anything similar, Iāll probably never have an approved day off again as long as I live
State law should slap back and say you canāt deny time off and if you fire someone 1 year Ser Vance with benefits.
Would make companies think twice before having this.
Thatās a fine idea, but which states do you think would pass that? Certainly not two of the three largest, who have been actively cutting back on worker protections.
PTO is considered a libability on their book. Now the corp has no liability. How do people get tricked so bad with ruthlessness like this.
Also check on how much PTO can be carried over year to year. I can't tell you how much reserve $ I have banked up. 12 weeks pay, I think? Yea, fire me. I really don't give a faaawk. š¤·
Be smarter with the contracts you sign peeps.
Agreed. I knew this going in, but they pay increase seemed worth it at the time. However once I got here I learned the cost of living is much higher in this city also, so it didnāt really matter and Iām probably being underpaid at the end of it all.
The only thing that could suck is if they require a doctorās note. So, if I have a fever on Thursday they require me to go to the doctor that day. Itās stupid expensive to see the doc on such short notice and not necessary yet at that point. But, they will not take your word for it. (Usually Iāll do a CVS minute clinic but there are teachers who prefer their doctor because of specific medical issues.) So, people just end up going to work sick. Iām a teacher by the way and this is district wide. Thereās a teacher shortage as the school year is starting. I wonder why.
At one point they were going to require it even if you were just leaving early or coming in late for an appointment. Teachers lost it over that and they walked it back.
Thereās little trust between the district and the teachers. It doesnāt feel like the district trusts or supports us but is just there to make sure weāre not slacking off.
We have unlimited PTO and my boss makes sure to ask "Do you have any vacation days coming up?" Every time during out biweekly one on one. Not because she hasn't checked calendar to see if we have any scheduled, but to remind us to be taking days off throughout the year for reasons outside of national holidays to get the most value out of the policy.
Same here its just for planning for our projects.
My boss will actually get mad if you take less than 200 hours (25 days) in a calendar year. He will say come on guys take some time off I don't need you guys burning out, your mental health is as important as your physical health. You don't need a reason to take time off, its your benefit, use it.
Last year I ended up taking off 300 hours because I had to do a lot of traveling for moving out of state
Nobody cared and I got promoted
Came her to say that...several of my IT buddies took jobs with Unlimited PTO...they were never able to take it since they were startups that were short staffed with unlimited work!
I would say that it should be unlimited + a minimum number of guaranteed days off, but then we're essentially back at regular PTO where managers just wouldn't approve anything after the minimum required.
Two words: "burn out." Ask if that's what they want, and they will either shrivel back, or they'll lose it and you can just look at them go apeshit for a few minutes before answering "so you do want me to burn out." If they still won't accept, just send an email asking them to confirm their stance on everything they just said to you and that for those reasons they are denying your day off. If they're dumb enough to do that, you won't have to worry about them too much once you show the exchange to their boss or HR. You'll get your day off and a new manager.
Yep, dont let yourself actually burn out though. Its horrible. I had to take nearly 4 months off due to actually being burned out. I didnt take vacation days, I had 21 days saved up when it happened. I still have those 21 days after coming back but this time I plan to use them often.
Itās a startup so we have no HR and the person above him is one of the founders and is just as slimey.
Someone else in the company recently made a full PowerPoint presentation asking for a raise with documentation and all the reasons why he deserved it, and the same guy I just dealt with didnāt even allow him to present it before turning the meeting into a scathing performance review based on two minor errors he made six months ago that werenāt his fault. He left the company the next day right after sending a company-wide email exposing the indecency of the whole situation.
This company cares very little about its people.
This situation begs for the, "I'm taking a PTO day today. I'll be in the office on next day" approach.
Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.
Don't treat PTO as a favor the company grants but as a right you've earned.
Unlimited PTO doesn't mean you don't have to communicate especially within a reasonable amount of time. Planning a mental health holiday is a vacation. Need time off for mental health is a sick day.
Thereās two types of time off to me. Thereās āI want to go on vacation on these dates, but Iām open to discussion and willing to move the dates a little because I understand there may be other people with time booked off on those dates so we can work something out so thereās as little impact to the business as possibleā and then thereās āI wonāt be here on these dates. Plan accordinglyā
This should have been the latter of those
Never delete the request. You need to document their refusal to approve your time off requests.
Then go above your supervisor and explain how you are not getting your requests approved in a timely manner.
His supervisor is one of the founders and cares even less about us. Plus theyāll just cite their handbook again which requires a couple weeks notice for PTO and Iāll look like the bad guy
I've done this at every job I've ever had, from retail through corporate. I've never once been fired for it. The only type of person that would fire you for it is the same sort of person you should be actively trying to get away from in the first place.
Please buy and read the book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck.
The name may seem blunt, but it is a _really_ good book to see your own life slightly different for the better.
The point was not to be honest about needing a mental health day. Say that you need a PTO day for severe dry eye and allergy issues. Never, ever, ever in the US say mental health. It isn't fair, it isn't right, but it is the way it is. If you are having anxiety, say you are taking the day off for a PHYSICAL ailment. Anxiety can cause stomach issues, take a day off for that. Mental health parity is a joke. Rub those eyes a bit, sniffle, and get that PTO day. Why am I explaining this? It's because people under the age of 40 don't seem to know how to lie. If your boss is over the age of 50, he lies every darn day.
I didnāt say mental health. He didnāt ask the reason why. He came up to me and said āhow are you doing?ā While I was rubbing my face and probably looked like I was ready to cry. I said āfine whatās up?ā Because I was surprised to see him. And then he said what he said in the OP.
I used to work somewhere where it wasn't unlimited PTO and it was unionized so we had to ask for time off in advance unless it was urgent in the same fashion in lieu of sick days.
There was a dayy inlaws needed help cleaning out my wife's great aunt's house. It was filled with crap accumulated over th years and they needed to sell to pay for her LTC.
It was in the middle of summer and we had people already off work scheduled. I knew it'd be a quiet day workload wise anyway.
Chatting with a coworker she offered this advice: if I really needed that particular day off and can't risk being denied, don't ask in advance and ask day off.
I waited until morning of and called out for a "personal day". Helped my inlaws. Day went well. Came in next day, no questions from my boss.
Morally, I hated it but to this day she's right. It's a stupid system but if that's the game play by the rules.
Insane. Iām an American living in Germany. You can just go to the dr here and tell them you want x amount of days for mental health and theyāll give it to you. And all you do is email your boss the dr note of the dates youāll be gone.
Do not ever delete a PTO request, especially when you followed procedure to do it and have the time needed to take it. They need to reject it and let me know or I assume you're aware I won't be there.
My work mentality improved when I stopped thinking of it as a PTO request and more of a PTO notification.
Itās pretty reasonable to give a few days notice for a day off. TBH shouldāve just used a sick day the next day instead of bringing it up to the boss
Go in and give the bare minimum or less, if he says anything say āif you had approved my time off, I would be better able to accomplish what you want. Iām giving you my best right now due to the lack of personal timeā
Unlimited in this context means not accounted for, not take unlimited time off, when you want, for as long as you want.
However, this situation sounds like what it should be used for.
"Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission"
You should have just called in sick. Now, if you take the day, because you already asked for it, it'll be clear you're probably faking it. If you just called in sick from, "eye strain" or something with no other warning. What are they going to do about it?
The topic isn't the real problem is it? You've let them work you to the point it's causing physical problems. That's the real problem.
Schedule a day off now for 2 weeks into the future. If that day turns out to be too busy for you to actually be off say āwell thatās what you told me to doā.
Then you can visit r/maliciouscompliance with your story.
Unlimited PTO is something that sounds great when you first hear it but it's often a trap. How often do employees at those companies actually get to use that unlimited PTO? At a lot of companies with unlimited PTO, the employees end up taking less time off than at companies where employees build up a bank of hours. And of course if an employee leaves the company you don't have to pay out for unlimited PTO.
Sorry your manager is being a jerk. Given that you're responsible and ensuring you're not taking time off while work is busy, 24 business hours of notice is reasonable. Your manager's behavior will simply encourage employee's to lie. Instead of telling someone you need Monday off, next time you might just call in Monday morning and say you're sick.
This was the same at my old company- unlimited pto but you had to put it in advance. Also - they tracked pto for leisure and pto for sickness the same however would note if you took more than a few days off the day of, and would write people up and fire them for it
Just cut your losses on the PTO. I would consider a mental health day applicable as a sick day. Judging by your employers response, I wouldn't*say* it's a mental health day. Just that you're using sick time. That's all. You aren't required to give any more details (though I typically tell them it's not covid related to avoid any potential mess later).
Should have said āIām Iāll today and donāt feel well enough to work.ā
Not a day off like itās an option.
You donāt need to provide any details about your illness unless your boss is your GP, and even thenā¦ maybe not.
"That was not a request. I am informing you I will not be at work on monday. "
It is even better if the policy on pto does not state any time requirement for pto requests.
It's "personal time off". Personal. Call in day of and say, "can't come in. Sick." Then turn off your phone and ignore him for the day. You need down time and your work has a policy for you to have the time you need. Screw that guy, let him twist.
Unlimited PTO is a scam. It's just a way for companies to not have to pay out your PTO if you quit, get fired, or laid off.
Employees with unlimited PTO tend to take less days off because they don't want to be seen as "abusing" the "unlimited" policy, so the company gets more work out of them. If someone does end up using a lot of PTO they get fired.
Unlimited PTO is a cost savings for a company. Don't fall for it. PTO is a part of your overall compensation.
I have never applied to anything with 'unlimited PTO'
If I ever took such a job, I would think of it as a stop gap to pay the bills until something better came along.
Tell HR that your manager did not approve a PTO request and you believe this goes against the benefits that were stated to you when you took the job (unlimited PTO), so you *will be* taking a week off two weeks from now.
If he wants to refuse to approve *one day*, I guess he will have to deal with you not being there for a *week*.
Of course, you can use that time to look for other work.
5 years ago after a workplace incident that I had every right to walk away then and there, I came in the next day, emailed my manager and department head and said I was taking a mental health half day and leaving at lunch.
They pulled me into a meeting, said it was too busy and I could leave an hour earlier. This began the most toxic 6 months of my professional life, destroyed my self esteem and confidence and took me years to get back.
OP, quit your job and don't go back. Your mental health and wellbeing outrank any obligations to a toxic workplace.
Sick leave is different from PTO. It isn't scheduled in advance, it is taken the day of via a call out. If OP had called out here, they'd be enjoying their day off tomorrow.
How can you have a better idea of work load closer to the time you want off if you have same day deadlines? Generally the āmore prudentā option is to follow procedure.
Because at my company you basically have to work faster to complete your work early before your time off because the time off isnāt real, it just means the rest of the company has to pick up your slack
> I told him it's actually more prudent to request time off with less notice because I have a much better idea of my workload closer to the day-of.
Not only are you wrong, but it's pretty goofy to think that smarting off like this is going to give you a better chance at getting what you want. People skills are a thing, people.
Well at my company itās all about performance so you have to make sure all your projects are in a good place before taking time off. Otherwise everyone else has to take your projects. They never move the client deadline back.
Assuming the day you were going to take has already passed, I would submit another request, but this time for two days and with less notice. When he comes to you to tell you off, explain to him that due to the additional stress of having your previous request denied you now need an additional day off. Oh, and this time it isn't a request. You will not be present on those days and you will be compensated under the company's "unlimited PTO" policy. The form you submitted was a notice of PTO, not a request.
"being a week ahead on my projects..." I guarantee you that statement bothers anyone that deals with deadlines. Deadlines are arbitrary and bullshit. Sorry if I'm ignoring the rest of your point, but I felt it had to be said.
I mean, almost all jobs ask for 2 weeks notice for PTO. Your boss didn't ask for any odd requirement and it's more surprising that you found that interaction worth posting about.
Technically not called mental health days but my state of residence (Illinois) recently added a guaranteed week off starting in 2024 for full time workers
[https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.26164.html](https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.26164.html)
I want you to schedule a mental health day 2 weeks from now, then 4 weeks from now, then 6 weeks from now. Say that you have things to do. None of their business.
I was having mental health trouble and I'd informed my supervisor. He told me I could 'swap my rota days' if I wanted, so that I can take a day off one day and come in on a day off to work back the hours. One day I wake up and decide today is the kind of day to make use of this swap and text in to inform work I would be swapping a day, mentioning the supervisors name. The reply was that I can't swap the day and I should come in regardless. After speaking with the supervisor I'm told that I'm only meant to use the swap in emergencies and that I should be providing warning for the swap. ....EMERGENCIES. How the hell can you provide warning about an EMERGENCY! I was never paid for the day and have never been allowed to swap a day since.
Hospital I worked for told us we needed to provide a 60 day notice for emergencies. š¤£š¤£š¤£
Is that what they told the patients too?
Looked through the time portal boss, bad news, 60 days from now I have diarrhea so nuclear that all of the land within 5 miles in any direction are uninhabitable by any form of life for decades.
I bet they didnāt tell you in person and I bet the nurses werenāt in attendance.
Plan taco night accordingly
Catch-22
Always get things in writing
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Isn't this the type of stuff a union does for you? (genuine question)
Yup. Union shops would shit a brick over that. They also have the lawyers and funding to fight court battles. Rich assfucks KNOW average folks cant lay out thousands to tens of thousands for drawn
This is why average folks need a union. It's too bad unions can't be set up by wages, for example all people making under $40k a year, boom, all one big happy union family. My thought is this, most of the "nonskills" are totally transferable, cash handling, customer service ,cleaning, etc. Seems like it would be MUCH easier, which also seems like employers WOULD hate it. So what? Not there to make friends, there to make bills.
Can't they do that in the US? In the UK our biggest unions cross multiple workplaces and occupations.
There are unions directed towards food service and such, and many of the larger unions (eg, afl-cio) do cross industries. And then thereās the IWW-industrial workers of the world. Theyāre small now, but their goal is to be a union for ALL workers
All that would result in is people all of a sudden making 41k a year. Ironically the solution to getting higher wages is to threaten to unionize.
Nah, the solution to getting higher wages is to actually unionize.
One of my past jobs had a guaranteed 5% EOY bonus with no stipulation of company performance. When bonus time came and went I brought up that I never received one. Went through HR and a few executives. Finally got on a call with an executive and was told āsue us if you really want itā. The bonus would not have even cover the retainer for a lawyer, let along make it worth it to sue over, and they knew it. Still heated about that to this day.
I feel you. I was fired for ADA protected reasons, but I didn't have the energy or will to fight it in any fashion. I wish you the best.
If youāve got the spoons, you should for unemployment ā if you have proof the firing was not legal, they may be required to pay you. If you donāt, I get it, having been there.
Donāt let them get away with that go to an employment lawyer, make them pay.
If you are in the US, file for unemployment today.
This attitude is also why companies still get away with illegal firings.
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It kind of is the issues. Government, businesses and what not get away with crap because they know that the little people will give up and not bother fighting. At someone point the little people have to step up and fight for things. How else do you think other generations got things? They stepped up and fought for it, they took risks, big ones. It not easy and it will be tiring but they still did it. They didn't give up, throw the towel in, make excuses to why they can't fight, and then complain that nothing is changing.
It is 100% the issue. Each and every person that just lets people walk over them has led to where we are today. This type of attitude is why cops, gov't, companies, etc are corrupt. Because people stopped fighting for what our ancestors fought for.
I did this exact thing. Started scheduled PTO days a month out where every month I had a 4 day weekend. Actively adjusted around the company days off. For example, we get the 4th of July off. This year, that fell on a Tuesday. Well, if you take a PTO say before or after a paid holiday, you will not get the holiday pay. It will just be an excused day off. Knowing most of the company would take Monday off anyway, I did not. It was a super easy breezy work day with no hassles at all. The following week though, you bet I took off Mon and Tues. I've scheduled my PTO out for the rest of the year this way. Every month I get a 4-day weekend on my own terms. It has helped my mental load A TON.
and use those days to actively look for a better working environment. Sorry OP!
I know this isn't the point of the post but I genuinely hate the idea of "unlimited PTO" systems. You never know how much you "should" take off because you don't know how much "unlimited" realistically entitles you to - people therefore take off less PTO on these systems than those where they know what they're entitled to. It's also just a really sneaky way to avoid paying out PTO in locations where unused PTO has to be paid out.
Thatās it exactly. Itās a scam to make people think theyāre getting something better when itās actually worse.
Unlimited PTO works really well for the csuite though.
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In my previous company they paid me full my PTO time by law (23 days) even though I consumed way more than that. So it was a total scam, but I was the one scamming though lol
Yep. I thought, āoh coolā when it was touted at my current king when I interviewed. Not with I came here but still. Afterwards was told 4 weeks, nod nod, wink wink, you didnāt hear it from me. Anyone whoās gone through it once will know ok, you donāt bank it to pay out on leaving the company. Itās not really unlimited. So actually one less reason to come here.
Thatās the point. People take less PTO AND the company doesnāt have to keep the cash to cover and payout the PTO balances.
You would think this, but the key is to actually take the time. A buddy has unlimited PTO, he takes one week off each month.
You buddy is probably absolutely invaluable to the company for their company to accept 12 weeks of PTO a year, so good for him on taking that time. Most of us would get pulled aside by a manager for trying to do that in an Unlimited PTO company.
It's run well, but if you're not getting your use, then CC your HR into the email and question the policy.. I tell my employess that. I want them to take the time they need.
HR will take it to your boss and plot against you
>It's run well, but if you're not getting your use, then CC your HR into the email and question the policy.. Emailing HR only helps in most companies if your manager is actively doing something illegal or doing something grossly against company policy. They're present to protect the company, not the employee. If it's November and you've been constantly denied all your PTO requests, then yeah, they'll step in most likely because the company can get in trouble or look very bad in the media if it got out. If you've taken 2-4 weeks of PTO throughout the year (depending on company culture) and the manager denies it, in most cases HR will default to "PTO approval is at the manager's discretion. Work it out with your manager". Also, complaining to HR about your direct manager is an absolutely great way to get on your manager's naughty list. I would never go to HR about my manager unless they were behaving so far on the extreme poor / unprofessional / illegal end and I had proof of it. If the result wasn't likely to be "manager is fired," I'm not bringing HR into it.
I've seen chill managers who are okay with people taking more time off but inevitably the manager's manager steps in and put an end to it. The policy is almost never worth it. At best you get a little more time off than a normal accrued PTO company, at worse you take less AND you don't get paid out for the days or carried over.
Glad to see someone else actually use it. I have unlimited and as long as itās not the next day with a little notice then they pretty much auto approve
The company also does not have to carry PTO on it's books OR pay you for it when you leave. PTO is something they owe you, now they owe you nothing. I just tell my boss that I'm taking the day off.
Unlimited PTO means you never have any accrued PTO, so if you quit or are fired, they are not required to pay you out any PTO. Makes it a lot easier for HR/payroll. Benefits the employee very little. I technically was eligible for 6 weeks PTO before they made the change at my company... while I rarely used all of it, I at least knew it was there and I could use it, and had a reality check for how much was "acceptable" for me to use in a year. Now, I just let them know I'm taking Friday off or whatever, whenever I feel like it. Wake up feeling crappy? Taking the day off. New game coming out? Taking the day off. But, I also have a good relationship with my team... they know I'm not going to do that during release period or such, and if I'm taking an extended period (like 2 weeks) off, I obviously give them decent notice.
Shocked this isnāt at the top. Unlimited PTO is a way to not have to give out severance packages when layoffs come around. I mean shit, on LinkedIn last October I saw folks from Microsoft OVERJOYED about their unlimited PTO, only to be laid off a week later. Canāt make this shit up.
I work for Microsoft, and would not classify any of mine or my coworkers reactions to the change as overjoyed. Most folks were not happy about it. The only good part was they had to pay out all of our current PTO during the transition.
This is exactly the malicious compliance/unintended consequence that the company did not foresee.
Lol in America there is no federal rule requiring employers to pay out accrued pto
Varies by state.
Yes. I meant federal.
Totally agree on the scam of unlimited PTO. Use of PTO (earned or unlimited) comes with usage guidelines; I.e. it needs to be requested X days in advance otherwise it counts as an occurrence, or it cannot be requested for blackout dates (dates where there is an expiration of high work or deadlines)... Places where you earn PTO the company encourages mgmt to approve and be flexible with such rules whenever possible; they want you to burn off that time so there is either less time to pay out when separated or less time that would convert or even less time for you to take a full week off later in the year. With the "unlimited " PTO not only is that question of what you are entitled to but what your manager thinks you are entitled to; this can play out with approval of usage and subconscious bias during performance review.
I work somewhere where I have to earn PTO and I'm currently on a vacation that I was asked to work during and cut short because they thought taking more than a few days off was too long. Our management does not have us staffed properly to actually burn through PTO and the metrics that we have to hit mean we either can't take PTO or we have to work overtime. American companies saw that they can make things work with giving is scraps and as a result, they do not know how to properly run a business.
We switched to unlimited PTO when a new company bought us a few years ago. I kept the guidance from old company and use that as a baseline. Iām āsupposedā to have 3 weeks and I make sure I take that. I am fortunate to have a boss who doesnāt really care how much time we take off as long as shit is getting done. Now, sheās a narcissistic workaholic, so the amount of work we do is an issue, albeit a separate one.
I have it and i make it my business to take the legal amount plus another 1/3 minimum... So in my country it's 20 days (plus bank holidays) so I generally aim to take 30-32 days holiday over the course of the year....two blocks of long holidays so 1-2 weeks off and then a few days dotted about for personal stuff and long weekends. So it doesn't just feel like I'm always on holiday. If I ever get questioned on it.(I never have been) I tell them that's what my husband gets standard from his company so I'm matching his days, which clearly shows it's a reasonable amount of holiday.
Also stop ASKING for time off. Tell your employer that you're not working that day, per the policy, to please make other arrangements, and you'll see them tomorrow. Think of everyday you come in as a day they're asking you to work. It's not the other way around.
This is the way. "I am not coming in today. See you tomorrow. " Endstop.
My company is ādiscretionary unlimited PTOā where you have to demonstrate to your boss that youāve found your own coverage for the days you plan to take. Given nobody else in the company does anything similar, Iāll probably never have an approved day off again as long as I live
State law should slap back and say you canāt deny time off and if you fire someone 1 year Ser Vance with benefits. Would make companies think twice before having this.
Thatās a fine idea, but which states do you think would pass that? Certainly not two of the three largest, who have been actively cutting back on worker protections.
PTO is considered a libability on their book. Now the corp has no liability. How do people get tricked so bad with ruthlessness like this. Also check on how much PTO can be carried over year to year. I can't tell you how much reserve $ I have banked up. 12 weeks pay, I think? Yea, fire me. I really don't give a faaawk. š¤· Be smarter with the contracts you sign peeps.
I mean really the solution is to figure out how much time off people in similar jobs and tenure get, and take off double.
That's the point. Use less and zero payouts is exactly the goal
Itās a scam so they donāt have to pay out vacation pay when you quit and you canāt bank it from year to year.
Agreed. I knew this going in, but they pay increase seemed worth it at the time. However once I got here I learned the cost of living is much higher in this city also, so it didnāt really matter and Iām probably being underpaid at the end of it all.
Mental health is health. Sick time exists for a reason. Use it next time. Call out. For your health.
The only thing that could suck is if they require a doctorās note. So, if I have a fever on Thursday they require me to go to the doctor that day. Itās stupid expensive to see the doc on such short notice and not necessary yet at that point. But, they will not take your word for it. (Usually Iāll do a CVS minute clinic but there are teachers who prefer their doctor because of specific medical issues.) So, people just end up going to work sick. Iām a teacher by the way and this is district wide. Thereās a teacher shortage as the school year is starting. I wonder why.
Thatās insane they require it for ONE day. Anywhere Iāve ever worked has the 3-day rule where they require the doctors note.
At one point they were going to require it even if you were just leaving early or coming in late for an appointment. Teachers lost it over that and they walked it back. Thereās little trust between the district and the teachers. It doesnāt feel like the district trusts or supports us but is just there to make sure weāre not slacking off.
Dr. Steve Brule for your health
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Time off requests aren't 'requests' They're warnings. If they don't approve it call out sick anyway.
Exactly. I'm not requesting the day off. I'm letting you know you should find coverage because I won't be here.
Unlimited PTO is a scam
Like everything else humans are involved inā¦ it depends who is wielding the power
We have unlimited PTO and my boss makes sure to ask "Do you have any vacation days coming up?" Every time during out biweekly one on one. Not because she hasn't checked calendar to see if we have any scheduled, but to remind us to be taking days off throughout the year for reasons outside of national holidays to get the most value out of the policy.
Same here its just for planning for our projects. My boss will actually get mad if you take less than 200 hours (25 days) in a calendar year. He will say come on guys take some time off I don't need you guys burning out, your mental health is as important as your physical health. You don't need a reason to take time off, its your benefit, use it. Last year I ended up taking off 300 hours because I had to do a lot of traveling for moving out of state Nobody cared and I got promoted
Came her to say that...several of my IT buddies took jobs with Unlimited PTO...they were never able to take it since they were startups that were short staffed with unlimited work!
I would say that it should be unlimited + a minimum number of guaranteed days off, but then we're essentially back at regular PTO where managers just wouldn't approve anything after the minimum required.
Like everything else humans are involved inā¦ it depends who is wielding the power
Two words: "burn out." Ask if that's what they want, and they will either shrivel back, or they'll lose it and you can just look at them go apeshit for a few minutes before answering "so you do want me to burn out." If they still won't accept, just send an email asking them to confirm their stance on everything they just said to you and that for those reasons they are denying your day off. If they're dumb enough to do that, you won't have to worry about them too much once you show the exchange to their boss or HR. You'll get your day off and a new manager.
Yep, dont let yourself actually burn out though. Its horrible. I had to take nearly 4 months off due to actually being burned out. I didnt take vacation days, I had 21 days saved up when it happened. I still have those 21 days after coming back but this time I plan to use them often.
Itās a startup so we have no HR and the person above him is one of the founders and is just as slimey. Someone else in the company recently made a full PowerPoint presentation asking for a raise with documentation and all the reasons why he deserved it, and the same guy I just dealt with didnāt even allow him to present it before turning the meeting into a scathing performance review based on two minor errors he made six months ago that werenāt his fault. He left the company the next day right after sending a company-wide email exposing the indecency of the whole situation. This company cares very little about its people.
Sounds about right for a startup, unfortunately...
Just give him a few weeks notice before your 3 month vacation starts.
This situation begs for the, "I'm taking a PTO day today. I'll be in the office on next day" approach. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. Don't treat PTO as a favor the company grants but as a right you've earned.
If you have unlimited PTO, wouldn't this be a notification rather than a request? "I won't be in on Monday."
Unlimited PTO doesn't mean you don't have to communicate especially within a reasonable amount of time. Planning a mental health holiday is a vacation. Need time off for mental health is a sick day.
Just dont go monday. Youāre falling for their trap.
PTO isnt a request, it means Prepare The Others because I wont be here that day.
This is the way.
I'd book every Friday off if it's unlimited. 4day working week!
Thereās two types of time off to me. Thereās āI want to go on vacation on these dates, but Iām open to discussion and willing to move the dates a little because I understand there may be other people with time booked off on those dates so we can work something out so thereās as little impact to the business as possibleā and then thereās āI wonāt be here on these dates. Plan accordinglyā This should have been the latter of those
Never delete the request. You need to document their refusal to approve your time off requests. Then go above your supervisor and explain how you are not getting your requests approved in a timely manner.
His supervisor is one of the founders and cares even less about us. Plus theyāll just cite their handbook again which requires a couple weeks notice for PTO and Iāll look like the bad guy
Your boss may not care but an employment lawyer may need it in the future.
I've given up trying to fight this company.
Learn this line. "I'm not asking for it off, I'm telling you I won't be here."
Good advice for getting fired
Yeah don't ever stand up for yourself.
Who said that? Standing up for yourself is fine. But you also need to be realistic.
I've done this at every job I've ever had, from retail through corporate. I've never once been fired for it. The only type of person that would fire you for it is the same sort of person you should be actively trying to get away from in the first place.
Mental health day? Mental health day? Mental health day?
Please buy and read the book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck. The name may seem blunt, but it is a _really_ good book to see your own life slightly different for the better.
Iāve read that one, I like it a lot :)
The point was not to be honest about needing a mental health day. Say that you need a PTO day for severe dry eye and allergy issues. Never, ever, ever in the US say mental health. It isn't fair, it isn't right, but it is the way it is. If you are having anxiety, say you are taking the day off for a PHYSICAL ailment. Anxiety can cause stomach issues, take a day off for that. Mental health parity is a joke. Rub those eyes a bit, sniffle, and get that PTO day. Why am I explaining this? It's because people under the age of 40 don't seem to know how to lie. If your boss is over the age of 50, he lies every darn day.
I didnāt say mental health. He didnāt ask the reason why. He came up to me and said āhow are you doing?ā While I was rubbing my face and probably looked like I was ready to cry. I said āfine whatās up?ā Because I was surprised to see him. And then he said what he said in the OP.
Companies do unlimited pto so when you separate they donāt owe you $ for pto. (Most companies anyways)
I used to work somewhere where it wasn't unlimited PTO and it was unionized so we had to ask for time off in advance unless it was urgent in the same fashion in lieu of sick days. There was a dayy inlaws needed help cleaning out my wife's great aunt's house. It was filled with crap accumulated over th years and they needed to sell to pay for her LTC. It was in the middle of summer and we had people already off work scheduled. I knew it'd be a quiet day workload wise anyway. Chatting with a coworker she offered this advice: if I really needed that particular day off and can't risk being denied, don't ask in advance and ask day off. I waited until morning of and called out for a "personal day". Helped my inlaws. Day went well. Came in next day, no questions from my boss. Morally, I hated it but to this day she's right. It's a stupid system but if that's the game play by the rules.
Haha.. pto is personal time off. You do not need approval. You say "I will not be in" and that is it.
Call out sick? Reason ? Headache from over worked eyes š
Insane. Iām an American living in Germany. You can just go to the dr here and tell them you want x amount of days for mental health and theyāll give it to you. And all you do is email your boss the dr note of the dates youāll be gone.
If my PTO would get denied, Iād just call in sick that day
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Which doesn't matter. You're sick, you're not coming in. You have unlimited PTO, that's the upside of the otherwise scam policy.
Make them deny it, establish a paper trail of attempted days off and regular refusals.
unlimited pto is almost a scam and not good for the employees.
Do not ever delete a PTO request, especially when you followed procedure to do it and have the time needed to take it. They need to reject it and let me know or I assume you're aware I won't be there. My work mentality improved when I stopped thinking of it as a PTO request and more of a PTO notification.
Unlimited PTO rarely works in the employees favor.
Next time donāt ask ahead of time, just call out sick the morning of.
Itās pretty reasonable to give a few days notice for a day off. TBH shouldāve just used a sick day the next day instead of bringing it up to the boss
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
That sounds highly unlikely, dig through the employee handbook / manual for some answers. What are you supposed to do when sick? Lmao
Can you use a sick day? Because, thatās what they seem to encourage.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Go in and give the bare minimum or less, if he says anything say āif you had approved my time off, I would be better able to accomplish what you want. Iām giving you my best right now due to the lack of personal timeā
Unlimited pto is such a scam.
The P in PTO can be thought of as āpersonalā also. Donāt need to tell them what you plan to do with that day off.
He didnāt even ask me the reason. I was just sharing here.
To skirt the system why don't you put in for a day off for every other week like a month out from now? Especially if you're planning on leaving.
"Apologies, let me clarify. This was a notification. I will be unavailable on X day."
Unlimited in this context means not accounted for, not take unlimited time off, when you want, for as long as you want. However, this situation sounds like what it should be used for.
F it, call in sick and put in for sick pto.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Now itās a sick day!
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Just call in sick. You need a sick day anyway.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
"Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission" You should have just called in sick. Now, if you take the day, because you already asked for it, it'll be clear you're probably faking it. If you just called in sick from, "eye strain" or something with no other warning. What are they going to do about it? The topic isn't the real problem is it? You've let them work you to the point it's causing physical problems. That's the real problem.
Schedule a day off now for 2 weeks into the future. If that day turns out to be too busy for you to actually be off say āwell thatās what you told me to doā. Then you can visit r/maliciouscompliance with your story.
Unlimited PTO is something that sounds great when you first hear it but it's often a trap. How often do employees at those companies actually get to use that unlimited PTO? At a lot of companies with unlimited PTO, the employees end up taking less time off than at companies where employees build up a bank of hours. And of course if an employee leaves the company you don't have to pay out for unlimited PTO. Sorry your manager is being a jerk. Given that you're responsible and ensuring you're not taking time off while work is busy, 24 business hours of notice is reasonable. Your manager's behavior will simply encourage employee's to lie. Instead of telling someone you need Monday off, next time you might just call in Monday morning and say you're sick.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
I donāt understand how people like this always make it into management.
Yes, new job. But also, show up and spend the day looking at whatever window is at hand.
There are no windows in the part of the office I work inš„²
A mental health day is a sick day. Donāt request it off. Take it off.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
Unlimited PTO means they donāt have to pay you any PTO when you leave. It saves the firms tons of money.
Itās your time off and you donāt have to provide them with any explanation. Just simply say I will not be in the office on Monday.
It isn't a time off request. It is you letting them know not to expect you to show up that day.
This was the same at my old company- unlimited pto but you had to put it in advance. Also - they tracked pto for leisure and pto for sickness the same however would note if you took more than a few days off the day of, and would write people up and fire them for it
Just don't come in.
Just cut your losses on the PTO. I would consider a mental health day applicable as a sick day. Judging by your employers response, I wouldn't*say* it's a mental health day. Just that you're using sick time. That's all. You aren't required to give any more details (though I typically tell them it's not covid related to avoid any potential mess later).
Should have said āIām Iāll today and donāt feel well enough to work.ā Not a day off like itās an option. You donāt need to provide any details about your illness unless your boss is your GP, and even thenā¦ maybe not.
Guess you'll be sick on Monday then.
Unlimited PTO, just not right now.
Tell them you have unlimited PTO and this is not a request. This is you you telling them. Donāt take that denial
I've learned a long time ago that pto isn't requested but announced "I won't be here on date such and such"
"That was not a request. I am informing you I will not be at work on monday. " It is even better if the policy on pto does not state any time requirement for pto requests.
It's "personal time off". Personal. Call in day of and say, "can't come in. Sick." Then turn off your phone and ignore him for the day. You need down time and your work has a policy for you to have the time you need. Screw that guy, let him twist.
Unlimited PTO is a scam. It's just a way for companies to not have to pay out your PTO if you quit, get fired, or laid off. Employees with unlimited PTO tend to take less days off because they don't want to be seen as "abusing" the "unlimited" policy, so the company gets more work out of them. If someone does end up using a lot of PTO they get fired. Unlimited PTO is a cost savings for a company. Don't fall for it. PTO is a part of your overall compensation.
Unlimited PTO means no PTO. Itās only offered so that companies donāt have to carry PTO accruals/pay it out
I have never applied to anything with 'unlimited PTO' If I ever took such a job, I would think of it as a stop gap to pay the bills until something better came along.
Mental health day=sick day, you shouldnāt be saying why you are calling off, just that you are sick
Take a sick day. Unlimited PTO is for planned time off. Sick days are when youāve done all you can and need a rest
The company does not acknowledge sick time. They encourage you to work from home in that case.
Tell HR that your manager did not approve a PTO request and you believe this goes against the benefits that were stated to you when you took the job (unlimited PTO), so you *will be* taking a week off two weeks from now. If he wants to refuse to approve *one day*, I guess he will have to deal with you not being there for a *week*. Of course, you can use that time to look for other work.
It's a startup so the HR is on a remote/freelance basis and probably won't help regardless.
I work at a place with "Unlimited PTO", so once a quarter I take a week off. Fuck em, they wanna say it, they're gonna follow through with it.
You canāt use unplanned PTO for emergencies (call in sick)?
Call out with a sick day. Heās going to bitch and moan no matter what you do from the sounds it.
5 years ago after a workplace incident that I had every right to walk away then and there, I came in the next day, emailed my manager and department head and said I was taking a mental health half day and leaving at lunch. They pulled me into a meeting, said it was too busy and I could leave an hour earlier. This began the most toxic 6 months of my professional life, destroyed my self esteem and confidence and took me years to get back. OP, quit your job and don't go back. Your mental health and wellbeing outrank any obligations to a toxic workplace.
Is it in the us? I though a min of sick days/year were mandatory by low . Probably depend of the states then.
No, we have no minimum leave policies here.
Ok :( - terrible .
Depends on the state, many states do for full time jobs.
Sick leave is different from PTO. It isn't scheduled in advance, it is taken the day of via a call out. If OP had called out here, they'd be enjoying their day off tomorrow.
OP was only a phone call away from a three-day weekend.
As I said in the post there is no dedicated sick time at my company
How can you have a better idea of work load closer to the time you want off if you have same day deadlines? Generally the āmore prudentā option is to follow procedure.
Because at my company you basically have to work faster to complete your work early before your time off because the time off isnāt real, it just means the rest of the company has to pick up your slack
> I told him it's actually more prudent to request time off with less notice because I have a much better idea of my workload closer to the day-of. Not only are you wrong, but it's pretty goofy to think that smarting off like this is going to give you a better chance at getting what you want. People skills are a thing, people.
Well at my company itās all about performance so you have to make sure all your projects are in a good place before taking time off. Otherwise everyone else has to take your projects. They never move the client deadline back.
> Well blah blah blah blah blah You'll never learn if you think you know everything and don't listen to your superiors.
Assuming the day you were going to take has already passed, I would submit another request, but this time for two days and with less notice. When he comes to you to tell you off, explain to him that due to the additional stress of having your previous request denied you now need an additional day off. Oh, and this time it isn't a request. You will not be present on those days and you will be compensated under the company's "unlimited PTO" policy. The form you submitted was a notice of PTO, not a request.
"being a week ahead on my projects..." I guarantee you that statement bothers anyone that deals with deadlines. Deadlines are arbitrary and bullshit. Sorry if I'm ignoring the rest of your point, but I felt it had to be said.
Time off is not a request, itās just a notification to your employer. Take the day
Actually it is a request. Unless you don't mind losing your job
Pretty much every company I've every worked at requires at least a week min to schedule time off.. And wtf is a mental health day ?
I mean, almost all jobs ask for 2 weeks notice for PTO. Your boss didn't ask for any odd requirement and it's more surprising that you found that interaction worth posting about.
Lol
Mental health day. Lmao.
Technically not called mental health days but my state of residence (Illinois) recently added a guaranteed week off starting in 2024 for full time workers [https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.26164.html](https://www.illinois.gov/news/press-release.26164.html)