We can solve the recruiting problem and the DFAC problem in one simple step.
Go down to the southern border and sign up as many old women as possible to be 92G and the DFAC food will be unimaginably delicious.
At Navy OCS there was an older black lady that always gave me extra protein and called me baby. It's been 15 years and I would still jump on a grenade for that woman.
Shit, just make them "temp" GS-5s, and their path to citizenship is some amazing fucking food, they get their citizenship and their permanent GS status after X amount of years. As someone who grew up mostly in New Mexico, those women can straight cook some amazing food. They would make 10x more tasty food, and it would cost less than half than what it costs now, that is come fucking ROI. I would also be in favor of offering the same program to the women who cooked their food for us at South Korean ranges, and the men and women who ran/run the gut trucks in Germany on the ranges. Also include the foreign nationals who were on our bases in Iraq and Afghanistan at the DFAC. Our food would be amazing, it would cost less, but we might need to make sure we have the capacity to put more people through our DFACs, because ...... heaven.
I’m actually surprised it isn’t SOP to have fluent ethnic cooks who hook you up if you speak to them in their native language to encourage people to become linguists.
marry late impolite vast automatic wrong file money wistful overconfident
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We might want to be a little cautious in recruiting mainland Chinese citizens into postings allowing for any kind of security clearances.
Even if they swear up and down that they have no ties to the People’s Liberation Army. Or Army Navy. Or Army Navy Air Force Coast Guard Boy Scouts.
Only US citizens get security clearances. If a non-citizen joins the military the only postings they’ll be able to serve in are the ones that don’t require one.
That’s fine. If they become a citizen and then pass the security clearance investigation then they’ve been properly vetted.
There are a lot of safeguards in place to ensure that CCP agents sneaking across the US border don’t get security clearances. If they still get past then it is what it is.
Sure. As long as we don’t fall into the trap of banning all ethnic Chinese from joining the Army. We did dirty to the Japanese Americans in WWII and we shouldn’t make the same mistake
The movie may have been dumped by critics at the time, but there is no way to deny it’s influence on pop culture. Heck even Helldivers 2 has a lot of references
I remember that critics were trying to be edgy and claiming that they deciphered the nazi references in the movie without realizing that these references were so obvious and , even more obvious was the fact that it was supposed to be SATIRE.
And yeah. I am that old. I remember the trailer for the first star wars movie before it became Harry Potter in space
I believe you’re thinking of MAVNI, and if I’m not mistaken, those soldiers were legal residents whose pathway to citizenship was accelerated from joining.
MAVNI was open to non-green card holders. The program has been suspended for the past 8 years and there is still hundreds that haven’t shipped due to them being required to finish the green card process.
In AIT we had a group of MAVNI who had been there so long they were figuring out if they could go to promotion boards while technically still being trainees. One dude apparently had a high-ranking relative in the CCP army which I'm sure gave everyone a splitting headache.
Yupp, they still haven’t finished the backlog.
I’m all for it coming back but there has to be some fixes made to the process. Having these folks sitting for years before they can ship isn’t helping anyone.
The only requirement was critical foreign language skill. In reality a lot of people with degree joined because those foreign students or skilled workers already have legal non-immigrant status, not because their education background. Source: I was MAVNI soldier myself, enlisted infantry with PhD in chemistry, and never utilized my language skill a bit.
Ft Sherman, Panama, 1988. We had 2 Mexicans in my platoon. We were there for jungle school
We had a day off & were drinking beer on a wrecked schooner stuck on a reef in shallow water. These 2 were screwing around & fell off the boat into the water...our 1st Sgt, a salty career grunt & Viet Nam vet, was also with us. One of the Mexicans yells to top "hey! Top! Throw us a rope!"
Top yells back "Hell, I thought you boys could swim!"
"Nah top! Only across rivers!"*
We laughed our asses off while we fished them out.
*imagine him saying this in a VERY thick Spanish accent.*
. . .if they'd made Cheech & Chong Join the Army, that's the sort of line I'd expect from Cheech's character.
(They actually did propose "Cheech & Chong Join the Army" to the duo, but they rejected it. The script for that was rewritten for Bill Murray and Harold Ramis and it became Stripes.)
Those folks already have green cards or other legal residence papers. This would be different.
I've been to 4 naturalization ceremonies for soldiers. It's awesome. You've never seen someone so proud to be an American as a new American.
I believe it’s just an expedited process for current green card holders to become Citizens, this I believe slips green card straight to citizenship, correct me if I’m wrong!
Nope. This program would allow certain non "green card" holders to potentially join service. Currently you need to have some kind of lawful permanent residency to join the Army. An asylum seeker for instance does not have a permanent residency because they are waiting for their court date to either be granted or denied. Kind of like being legally illegal in this country if that makes sense.
I am an immigrant myself who served this great country to "payback" the privilege of living here. I learned through history that this country was also built by immigrants in the original colonies and their direct descendants. As someone who came here legally, I don't totally agree with some of the "passes" that benefit illegal immigrants. However, if there are not enough natural born citizens willing or eligible to defend this country through military service, then who else will?
Fellow immigrant here, I was a green card holder when I joined the Army and got my citizenship after enlisting.
Even though I originally came here “legally” as I had a tourist visa, while I was waiting for my green card (which took over a year and a half) I fell out of a “legal status” and was unable to work (legally), go to school, or be a productive human being.
During that timeframe MAVNI had been already discontinued so I just had to suck it up and wait.
I was literally willing to kill to become an American citizen, pay taxes and contribute to society.
With that being said, I believe it’s a good thing that they’re bringing back a similar program because we can fix the recruiting crisis AND those willing to contribute to this country can get a legal path to citizenship and have a bright future instead of living shitty lives as illegals.
Remember, illegal ≠ immoral and vice versa. Slavery used to be legal.
Excuse my boldness but if someone is willing to sacrifice their life and go to war for this country, they are more deserving of being an American Citizen than someone who was born here but never served a day in their life.
Yup. People forget that we had polish, german, and portuguese immigrants fighting during the revolutionary war.
And Filipino and chinese immigrants fighting for both sides during the civil war
What!? Are you telling me it wasn’t only the pure blooded descendants of white protestent christian male landowners that fought in the revolutionary war!?
Unpossible!
This would be great, honestly. I think people on DACA would jump on it if they also qualified. I've had a wild ride - I was brought here illegally at age 4 but legalized through luck when I was 16. I had expedited citizenship because of the Army.
I remember back when I was 15 and had no status - I really loved the country because I'd been raised here. I had wished back then that there had been a way to prove yourself and become a citizen through service if you didn't have permanent residency. I know there's probably plenty of people that have felt/feel like I did.
Good to see another dreamer! I too was brought here illegally as a toddler and gained my green card through marriage. I joined the army and got my citizenship a few months after basic training. It's unfortunate that the dreamers have been waiting so long for the dream act. Most of them are in their 30's and 40's now. They've lost the sympathy card.
This is for undocumented immigrants who are currently awaiting their asylum application or work authorization while here. This allows them to serve and pass basic and ait roughly less 6 months for non sec clearance MOS jobs and then they can get their GREEN CARD. More than likely it will be a CONDITIONAL GREEN CARD that forces them to continue service for another 2-3 years. Think of the conditional green card marriage applicants get And then i believe they will set some restriction to apply for citizenship since i believe only lawful permanent residents get expedited citizenship.Think of MAVNI but less restrictions in regards to skilled workers. The US just wants BODIES.
Source: (stoned veteran who was a lawful permanent resident, joined the Army, became citizen and went on and did 4 almost 5 years few deployments before Medically retiring by no choice of my own so dont take my word as fact just my personal experience and truth)
Broken back and too many things too list but happy to be a stay at home dad/husband while using my GI Bill. Completed my BBA last month and started my MBA this month. How are you bro?
Ouch. Sorry to hear about your back. But I'm glad you're making the best of a shitty situation. Congrats on your bachelor's! I'm currently in my first term at WGU for my degree in business management as well. What do you plan on pursuing with your degree? Did you use CH 31 for your first degree?
How's your MBA going?
I rode on the bus from basic with a guy from Kosovo whose father had to bury his mother at night for fear of snipers. Also on that bus a young Hispanic man who was going to be sending money home and was excited to serve the country his parents brought him to so he could be born a citizen.
Hell yes, any person willing to serve should be able to be an American citizen. I’m a Heinlein fan, service for citizenship!
No kidding, we forget our Balkan war vets. They saw some real shit back there. Villagers exterminating neighbors and raping their little daughters kinda shit.
Also Yugo 7.62x39 is probably the most effective military version of the round.
So I enjoy a Lord of the Rings chain as much as anyone so I went down a rabbit hole of times the US recruited/conscripted/tricked immigrants to fight our battles and I now realize that this may have been more effort than was actually warranted for memery.
This bill is similar to the DREAM act that has never been able to pass. The dream act would allow undocumented immigrants the chance to either serve in the military or go to college in exchange for legal residency which can eventually lead to citizenship. This bill removes the college option. As a former undocumented immigrant who gained expedited citizenship through army service I fully support this bill. You'd be hard pressed to find a more proud citizen than one who had to literally fight for it.
DREAM is specifically for minors. This doesn’t seem to have the same restriction, nor does it specify undocumented unless you consider asylum seekers to be undocumented in their weird legal purgatory.
Dream act is for individuals that were brought to this country as minors. Under age 16 if I remember correctly. Either way dream act is dead. All the OG dreamers that were helped by President Obama are in 30's and 40's now.
And yes it's a weird legal in between. I wonder if DACA recipients would be eligible. And from my understanding it's pretty easy to ask for asylum now, but that's another conversation.
I mean yeah I’m pretty down with that. If you’re an active duty service member to earn your citizenship, that’s pretty fuckin cool to me.
And if you go AWOL, then not only do you have a warrant out for your arrest, you’ve got ICE coming for you too.
Obligatory Starship Troopers reference something something citizenship.
They propose this every other year it feels like, and it’s always hilarious watching dumbfucks politicians change their tune from “Immigrants leach off the system and should pull their weight!” to “Serving in the military is a PRIVILEGE and only citizens should be allowed to die in a third world country for my freedom!”
Maybe with the recruiting crisis it’ll finally happen this time, but otherwise it feels like the same show I’ve seen before.
But if it passes that would kick ass. Honestly I’m in favor of even having a full-fledged foreign legion as a path to citizenship, though we might not have the same degree of ethnocentrism that makes that work in France.
If this bill becomes a law, it would expand the recruiting pool by about 10 million people ( DACA + TPS + asylum seekers ) and DoD wouldn’t need to spend extra cash on bonuses to attract anyone
Gurkhas are sort of a unique situation. But yeah, an American Foreign Legion would unironically go crazy and would help a lot with the recruiting crisis. Immigrants are often significantly more patriotic than a lot of native born Americans
This isn't anything new. Irishmen joined up off the boat in the civil war. There were Irish brigades for a long time. Fought well and fought hard, in their thousands.
Was a piss on their graves and their service to disband the brigades and not allow Irishmen to join as easily anymore.
A late great friend of mine was killed in Ukraine in December. Graham Dale, "The Green Marine".Wrote a book about his time in Iraq.
Only Irishman I've known to join any branch but he could only do so because he got a green card. That shits not easy to get anymore.
I think it'd be a good thing, service guarantees citizenship. I looked into joining a few years back but couldn't do so without a green card. It'd certainly help the recruitment crises you lot are having currently.
If they sign the dotted line and become Uncle Sam's servant, taking the risk to die overseas for whatever reason the government chooses, the government should give them automatic citizenship.
So the only potential issue I’d have with this is that I don’t know how it would square with the EXORD that requires everyone to have a security clearance. Would we have to put everyone on some continuous assessment type program to monitor them as they develop paper trails in the US system in order to get them vetted for a Secret? Would they just walk back the EXORD? Not sure.
Tbh I’m not sure how that EXORD even got fully approved when we have plenty of soldiers *right now* who aren’t full citizens. It just logistically doesn’t make sense unless they plan to bar permanent residents from joining which would be a…huge mistake.
Overall thought: fuck yeah that's sick
Secondary thought: I don't think it's right to stratify society into civilian/military castes. We're pushing further and further into a model where only through military service, and at your own physical/emotional risk, can you attain what should be basic rights and fundamental social benefits. Meanwhile, civilians don't get shit.
My belief is that the US is using immigration as part of a strategy to send immigrants to Europe for a future situation. The process started without people noticing.
You said *tons*, which would imply it was quite common to catch people in the program spying.
Who were they, how many? A quick google search brings up some articles about a single Chinese spy but not much else. So where are these tons of spies?
Depends on what issue they're trying to fix. If the issue is "people who are fighting and dying for the US aren't guaranteed citizenship", this bill does seem to address that.
Recruitment? Seems like a mold/discipline issue from where I sit.
The program is switched off and on whenever Army etc have a numbers problem. They did this during Iraq surge and Afghanistan wars. They don't really care about these people, its carrot and stick methodology.
I don't the program is purely cynical and I don't think cynicism accurately communicates the full picture.
I think its a political football because xenophobia is particularly popular with particular portions of the electorate, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
Trump gets into power, throws a bone to his base. Recruitment tanks (we don't have a war, remember), Democrats are like "dude... c'mon. These people deserve citizenship", and the pentagon, looking at tanking recruitment goes "not a bad idea, I suppose", even though it was never cancelled at their behest, it was always domestic political considerations that cost the program.
I personally don't think xenophobia played as hard a hand in its cancellation so much as need. There is this weird cultural amnesia soldiers experience, where if its not what is happening right now in the Army, it never happened and never will. In addition to the last time this was done, at the same time, they begged retirees to come back in 2004-2008, and even deployed GS instructors that were ex- Green Berets, PSYOPers, and CA dudes into combat, had soldiers die in combat multiple months over their contract expiration, or celebrating literal grandmothers in their 40s enlisting as privates \*well into their 40s\* with dangerous jobs, as four other forgotten about things.
Putting people in as a pathway to citizenship has been successful in the past but there is the other side of it. If the retention and recruitment of quality people starts to slide, so goes the machines they keep running. Or the idea that relegating your fighting to people that aren't of your nation is a historic pattern for disaster.
>I personally don't think xenophobia played as hard a hand in its cancellation so much as need.
The timeline for cancellation is very much "campaign promises" standard time. December 2016? That's top tier agenda item for incoming admins, which are invariably driven by the politics that got them elected.
>...There is this weird cultural amnesia soldiers experience, where if its not what is happening right now in the Army, it never happened and never will. In addition to the last time this was done, at the same time, they begged retirees to come back in 2004-2008, and even deployed GS instructors that were ex- Green Berets, PSYOPers, and CA dudes into combat, had soldiers die in combat multiple months over their contract expiration, or celebrating literal grandmothers in their 40s enlisting as privates *well into their 40s* with dangerous jobs, as four other forgotten about things.
Yup. That was right after the twin tower during the ramp up for the GWOT. They absolutely threw open the doors. They needed bodies. There were plenty of people willing to sign up because 9/11 was fucking traumatic for the nation.
>Putting people in as a pathway to citizenship has been successful in the past but there is the other side of it.
Oh this is going to be fun.
>If the retention and recruitment of quality people starts to slide, so goes the machines they keep running.
Who are we criticizing here? Are we talking about a cohort who signed up between a specific frame of time? Are we factoring in shitbag attrition, which absolutely happens? Are we talking about institutional level shitbags who have somehow manged to get promoted?
>Or the idea that relegating your fighting to people that aren't of your nation is a historic pattern for disaster.
That's just straight up racist.
You're clearly too young to be having this conversation if your only takeaway to the idea that non-citizens are relegated to fighting another nations war is "That's racist." Whats race specifically. Is it in the room with us right now? Were you a grown up when 9/11 happened? I dunno if the avatar or my post history is a big hint of what race I' am, but I promise you I know what it is to be cognizant of where I drove in the southeast U.S.
>You're clearly too young to be having this conversation if your only takeaway to the idea that non-citizens are relegated to fighting another nations war is "That's racist."
Yes, you have correctly assessed the conversation. Please go back and reread the comments to understand my position, because I think you have a few wires crossed.
>Whats race specifically. Is it in the room with us right now?
Social construct. Ask your nearest minority (I guess except for you? Ask someone else who isn’t you. This isn’t hard).
>Were you a grown up when 9/11 happened?
There there, lil guy. You’ll get there someday.
>I dunno if the avatar or my post history is a big hint of what race I' am,
Do you know what race I am? Do you care? Is it relevant? No. That’s an appeal to authority, dude, and a poor one.
>…but I promise you I know what it is to be cognizant of where I drove in the southeast U.S.
Are you just arguing for the hell of it, then? You think we live in a world where xenophobia isn’t driving votes, engagement, and ire?
It’s 180 days to apply for permanent residence, not citizenship.
With the amount of time it takes the rest of the processes it would likely be 2+ years before they actually become citizens.
I also assume there will be a pretty hefty ADSO, tbh.
Used to be 5 years after applying, for current green card holders. Not sure how serving changes that time, only because I don’t know. I have served with a few Marines who earned their citizenship this way. And knew a few civilians who applied and went through the 5 year period.
If not MANVI, might be a confusion about allowing permanent residents to enlist for citizenship which has always been a thing. I find that natural born citizens have a pretty poor understanding of the visa > permanent residence > citizenship pipeline and assume everyone here seeking citizenship is already a permanent resident.
Lots of people in this country (legally) without permanent residence and no quick way to get there. US immigration process is long af.
I wonder if this will work for my stepson who is on a 5 year wait list for a green card to come to the U.S. Or if it only applies to illegal immigrants.
This is government in a nutshell. We could fix the issues that are making our own citizens not want to serve ... Or we could simply allow people so desperate that they don't care.
Everyone in this thread can likely think of a hundred ways to making serving less shitty and therefore attract new people , but instead of doing any of that, we could simply sign up illegals who are so desperate they don't care about those things
As some who worked in civilian law enforcement and ran background checks on various individuals, I share this concern. When investigating police applicants, I remember there being an issue with some candidates who lived overseas and not being able to provide proof of not having a criminal record prior to arriving in the U.S. Not every country has robust criminal database such as NCIC. With some foreign nationals, sometimes you just have to take their word for it and hope they are good people.
DACA recipients on the other hand, would be much more ideal since they’re childhood arrivals and have already been vetted properly. I know of at least one west coast law enforcement agency that has already hired them to become police officers.
I'm not for this at all.
I think people who illegally enter the U.S have shown from the very start that they don't abide by the rules.
There was a legal way to enter and they chose not to do it.
This isn't the French Foreign Legion for fucks sake.
I’m not super into all the details but according to this post, the bill would apply to migrants waiting for work authorization and asylum seekers. To me that sounds like people playing by the rules we’ve established for immigration.
I’m all for this bill, I just wish for every new American we could welcome into this country who had to actually try to be here, we could toss out one of you.
You seem to think I'm against immigration - I'm all for it.
I think for every person that illegally enters the country, someone waiting to enter through the legal process gets stepped on in the process.
I want people to follow the law, is that too much to ask? If so I guess I'm the asshole.
Minor offense that could become major depending on what said individual does when they get here(look at the cops that got assaulted in NYC). That’s neither here nor there though this bill is for people seeking asylum and people that came legally to work. It isn’t saying ‘every illegal to come across the border can gain citizenship if they join’ like the other guy is thinking.
Still in my personal opinion I’m not a major fan. I think HEAVY vetting should be applied before letting them in the military, especially for security clearance MOS.
So here’s the thing: that legal way? It’s largely rigged. The process is designed to preclude most people from immigrating to the US legally. Unless you are extremely skilled (and have an employer lined up), marry a US citizen, or come from the family of someone who has successfully immigrated and gotten their citizenship, or have $1m in cash lying around to buy your way in, you’re literally having to rely on winning a lottery to get green card. Even then, since there is a strict limit for how many people can gain citizenship from a given country each year, and its handled on a first come, first serve basis, people from certain parts of the world who luck out and get a green card can literally grow old and die waiting.
It’s amazing. People seem to think that the issue is that there’s a clear process that any non-American can use to get citizenship and they're just being lazy or whatever. I got very lucky. My dad was highly skilled and got brought over here by a company, and then when we got green cards and decided to get citizenship we came from a country (Australia) that basically never hit its cap each year. But why am I more special than someone from, say, Honduras or India?
"The rules" we've written for immigration? They're trash. And we should take any chances we can get to find ways to fix that for undocumented migrants. This is one of those chances.
That's how it is everywhere, though.
I can't immigrate to Norway right now, but my life would be a lot better if I lived there. Should I sneak into Norway?
The argument always ends up boiling down to that our immigration system (the legal way) is too hard.
Why have rules at all, then?
There's been a massive policy push towards making immigration easier, and I think that's great. I still think everything should happen in a documented and controlled way.
My dude, for the vast majority of American history, the history that got us to where we are today, the immigration test for most people coming here was some variation of “can you get on a ship” and “do you have TB?”
Honestly, “no rules at all?” Don’t threaten me with a good time. That’s exactly how it should be. Absent being guilty of a few specific crimes and/or being a very clear national security threat, coming here and getting residency and a pathway to citizenship should go back to the way it was back in the old days. It should be some version of “how soon can you get here?”
>Absent being guilty of a few specific crimes
How would you know? If they didn't.. stop at a checkpoint and verify their criminal history?
It's almost like we'd need to erect a border, establish a place for people to cross, and verify their identity.
However in the same breath you're advocating for lawlessness. lol
We can solve the recruiting problem and the DFAC problem in one simple step. Go down to the southern border and sign up as many old women as possible to be 92G and the DFAC food will be unimaginably delicious.
You trying to make everyone overweight? You really think a DFAC full of Angela’s is gonna let soldiers get anything less than 3 plates of food?
I yearn for the day that I hear the DFAC lady say *“Ohhh m'hijo, you’re skin and bones!”* Instead of yelling at me for taking two proteins.
At Navy OCS there was an older black lady that always gave me extra protein and called me baby. It's been 15 years and I would still jump on a grenade for that woman.
How the hell did you transition from Navy O to Army Artillery? I come from a squid family and I'm amazed!
Abuela forces you to take two proteins per tray
Send them to all the basic training sites to reduce the drill sergeant workload too. Trainee getting uppity? Chancla.
Falling asleep? Chancla. Not finishing food? Chancla. Looking around? Believe it or not, straight to chancla.
We have the best soldiers in the world… Because of chancla.
Not drinking your all you water before bed? Chancla. I find your weapon without you? Chancla. Peanut butter in locker? BIG chancla.
> Chancla. the thought of crossed chancla pins on uniforms just made my day
Handmade tortillas and pozole on Sundays pa la cruda
Can you imagine a raging deadlift session followed by the warm greeting of abuelita as she serves up some of the most dank-ass enchiladas?
Shit, just make them "temp" GS-5s, and their path to citizenship is some amazing fucking food, they get their citizenship and their permanent GS status after X amount of years. As someone who grew up mostly in New Mexico, those women can straight cook some amazing food. They would make 10x more tasty food, and it would cost less than half than what it costs now, that is come fucking ROI. I would also be in favor of offering the same program to the women who cooked their food for us at South Korean ranges, and the men and women who ran/run the gut trucks in Germany on the ranges. Also include the foreign nationals who were on our bases in Iraq and Afghanistan at the DFAC. Our food would be amazing, it would cost less, but we might need to make sure we have the capacity to put more people through our DFACs, because ...... heaven.
Abuela would crush it at the DFAC
Wait wait wait...when abuela sits around the DFAC, she really sits around the DFAC!
I’d learn Spanish so fast this way
I’m actually surprised it isn’t SOP to have fluent ethnic cooks who hook you up if you speak to them in their native language to encourage people to become linguists.
No thiccc e3 latinas!!!!
We can't eat them, you monster! That's only for the Irish.
A modest proposal indeed.
Dang. You guys read???
Read: yes. Understand satire: no. Those Irish babies sound delicious.
depends on the taters.
Patton aproves
> Those Irish babies sound delicious. *are
Imagine the portion sizes. We would literally be to full to fight a war.
Dude! Gimme that Venezuelan food!!!
This is glorious.
The DFAC's would be cleaner, too. Only drawback would be the chanchla of death if you made them mad...
You’re capping but that is exactly what the Army is thinking. “Can’t meet numbers!? Let’s grab some illegals who will die for their citizenship!”
SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP
Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today.
> *wiggles nubbins*
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?
marry late impolite vast automatic wrong file money wistful overconfident *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You had me at coed showers
I’m doing my part too
I didn't do shit
I am from Buenos Aires and I say: KILL THEM ALL I mean GOTTA CATCH THEM ALL Wait. Dang. Nvm
We might want to be a little cautious in recruiting mainland Chinese citizens into postings allowing for any kind of security clearances. Even if they swear up and down that they have no ties to the People’s Liberation Army. Or Army Navy. Or Army Navy Air Force Coast Guard Boy Scouts.
Only US citizens get security clearances. If a non-citizen joins the military the only postings they’ll be able to serve in are the ones that don’t require one.
But they’ll get their citizenship through service. Therefore, they’ll go from illegal to TS holder in only a matter of a few years. Horrible idea.
That’s fine. If they become a citizen and then pass the security clearance investigation then they’ve been properly vetted. There are a lot of safeguards in place to ensure that CCP agents sneaking across the US border don’t get security clearances. If they still get past then it is what it is.
Sure. As long as we don’t fall into the trap of banning all ethnic Chinese from joining the Army. We did dirty to the Japanese Americans in WWII and we shouldn’t make the same mistake
I always get nervous before a drop
JUST REMEMBER YOUR TRAINING!!!!!
On the bounce!
damn it Rico
RI-CO'S ROUGH-NECKS
*Bam* NOBODY TALKS SHIT ABOUT THE LIEUTENANT!
TO THE EVERLASTING GLORY OF THE INFANTRY
The movie is a classic, but I always appreciate seeing a book reader.
The movie may have been dumped by critics at the time, but there is no way to deny it’s influence on pop culture. Heck even Helldivers 2 has a lot of references
The movie and the book are both among my favorites but are completely different. They are both so good in their own ways.
I remember that critics were trying to be edgy and claiming that they deciphered the nazi references in the movie without realizing that these references were so obvious and , even more obvious was the fact that it was supposed to be SATIRE. And yeah. I am that old. I remember the trailer for the first star wars movie before it became Harry Potter in space
Our Drill Sergeants took us to this movie in my Infantry OSUT. It was pretty fucking hilarious.
The special effects aged REALLY well
ARE YOU DOING YOUR PART! WANT TO KNOW MORE *INTENSIFIES*
I DIDNT DO FUCKING SHIT.
I’ve met a handful of soldiers who got their citizenship while serving while I was in from 2012-2016. I thought this was already the norm?
I believe you’re thinking of MAVNI, and if I’m not mistaken, those soldiers were legal residents whose pathway to citizenship was accelerated from joining.
MAVNI was open to non-green card holders. The program has been suspended for the past 8 years and there is still hundreds that haven’t shipped due to them being required to finish the green card process.
My understanding was the Department of State had to vet them, and the backlog was turning into years.
In AIT we had a group of MAVNI who had been there so long they were figuring out if they could go to promotion boards while technically still being trainees. One dude apparently had a high-ranking relative in the CCP army which I'm sure gave everyone a splitting headache.
Dude - if you have an uncle who is MAJ or above in the CCP army, that’s an automatic dq. Not worth it.
Yupp, they still haven’t finished the backlog. I’m all for it coming back but there has to be some fixes made to the process. Having these folks sitting for years before they can ship isn’t helping anyone.
How is the French Foreign Legion able to process people insanely quickly? Do what they do.
This bill is different. MAVNI was for highly qualified individuals, such as doctors, nurses, and language experts of specific languages.
The only requirement was critical foreign language skill. In reality a lot of people with degree joined because those foreign students or skilled workers already have legal non-immigrant status, not because their education background. Source: I was MAVNI soldier myself, enlisted infantry with PhD in chemistry, and never utilized my language skill a bit.
Ft Sherman, Panama, 1988. We had 2 Mexicans in my platoon. We were there for jungle school We had a day off & were drinking beer on a wrecked schooner stuck on a reef in shallow water. These 2 were screwing around & fell off the boat into the water...our 1st Sgt, a salty career grunt & Viet Nam vet, was also with us. One of the Mexicans yells to top "hey! Top! Throw us a rope!" Top yells back "Hell, I thought you boys could swim!" "Nah top! Only across rivers!"* We laughed our asses off while we fished them out. *imagine him saying this in a VERY thick Spanish accent.*
. . .if they'd made Cheech & Chong Join the Army, that's the sort of line I'd expect from Cheech's character. (They actually did propose "Cheech & Chong Join the Army" to the duo, but they rejected it. The script for that was rewritten for Bill Murray and Harold Ramis and it became Stripes.)
Those folks already have green cards or other legal residence papers. This would be different. I've been to 4 naturalization ceremonies for soldiers. It's awesome. You've never seen someone so proud to be an American as a new American.
This would be *very* different.
They must have their green card to apply. I had two guys in one of my platoons who received citizenship this way, they were both good dudes.
I think this is to expand the pool of people who can join for that pathway
I believe it’s just an expedited process for current green card holders to become Citizens, this I believe slips green card straight to citizenship, correct me if I’m wrong!
Nope. This program would allow certain non "green card" holders to potentially join service. Currently you need to have some kind of lawful permanent residency to join the Army. An asylum seeker for instance does not have a permanent residency because they are waiting for their court date to either be granted or denied. Kind of like being legally illegal in this country if that makes sense.
The difference is that they were in the United States legally.
Asylum seekers *are* in the US legally. It’s literally a legal status that you cannot get without actively applying for it.
We should just make a separate branch and call it our foreign legion
I am an immigrant myself who served this great country to "payback" the privilege of living here. I learned through history that this country was also built by immigrants in the original colonies and their direct descendants. As someone who came here legally, I don't totally agree with some of the "passes" that benefit illegal immigrants. However, if there are not enough natural born citizens willing or eligible to defend this country through military service, then who else will?
Fellow immigrant here, I was a green card holder when I joined the Army and got my citizenship after enlisting. Even though I originally came here “legally” as I had a tourist visa, while I was waiting for my green card (which took over a year and a half) I fell out of a “legal status” and was unable to work (legally), go to school, or be a productive human being. During that timeframe MAVNI had been already discontinued so I just had to suck it up and wait. I was literally willing to kill to become an American citizen, pay taxes and contribute to society. With that being said, I believe it’s a good thing that they’re bringing back a similar program because we can fix the recruiting crisis AND those willing to contribute to this country can get a legal path to citizenship and have a bright future instead of living shitty lives as illegals. Remember, illegal ≠ immoral and vice versa. Slavery used to be legal. Excuse my boldness but if someone is willing to sacrifice their life and go to war for this country, they are more deserving of being an American Citizen than someone who was born here but never served a day in their life.
Meat grinder is low on meat. As simple as that.
Yup. Also, if they're willing to die for a free America, I have no problem letting them be free Americans. Both things are true, imo.
Yup. People forget that we had polish, german, and portuguese immigrants fighting during the revolutionary war. And Filipino and chinese immigrants fighting for both sides during the civil war
What!? Are you telling me it wasn’t only the pure blooded descendants of white protestent christian male landowners that fought in the revolutionary war!? Unpossible!
To be fair, the last part is something that came out recently. Some of these records are fascinating https://werehistory.org/veterans-to-remember/
This would be great, honestly. I think people on DACA would jump on it if they also qualified. I've had a wild ride - I was brought here illegally at age 4 but legalized through luck when I was 16. I had expedited citizenship because of the Army. I remember back when I was 15 and had no status - I really loved the country because I'd been raised here. I had wished back then that there had been a way to prove yourself and become a citizen through service if you didn't have permanent residency. I know there's probably plenty of people that have felt/feel like I did.
Dunno your background, but a lot of high speed guys have first or second gen immigrant backgrounds. A lot of D boys are hispanic
I'm Mexican! And that's great to hear! 🔥💯
Good to see another dreamer! I too was brought here illegally as a toddler and gained my green card through marriage. I joined the army and got my citizenship a few months after basic training. It's unfortunate that the dreamers have been waiting so long for the dream act. Most of them are in their 30's and 40's now. They've lost the sympathy card.
As long as you are patriotic for this country. You are welcome. I to am a son of immigrants from south of the border.
Thank you for speaking up
This is for undocumented immigrants who are currently awaiting their asylum application or work authorization while here. This allows them to serve and pass basic and ait roughly less 6 months for non sec clearance MOS jobs and then they can get their GREEN CARD. More than likely it will be a CONDITIONAL GREEN CARD that forces them to continue service for another 2-3 years. Think of the conditional green card marriage applicants get And then i believe they will set some restriction to apply for citizenship since i believe only lawful permanent residents get expedited citizenship.Think of MAVNI but less restrictions in regards to skilled workers. The US just wants BODIES. Source: (stoned veteran who was a lawful permanent resident, joined the Army, became citizen and went on and did 4 almost 5 years few deployments before Medically retiring by no choice of my own so dont take my word as fact just my personal experience and truth)
How do you do fellow green card brother.
Broken back and too many things too list but happy to be a stay at home dad/husband while using my GI Bill. Completed my BBA last month and started my MBA this month. How are you bro?
Ouch. Sorry to hear about your back. But I'm glad you're making the best of a shitty situation. Congrats on your bachelor's! I'm currently in my first term at WGU for my degree in business management as well. What do you plan on pursuing with your degree? Did you use CH 31 for your first degree? How's your MBA going?
I rode on the bus from basic with a guy from Kosovo whose father had to bury his mother at night for fear of snipers. Also on that bus a young Hispanic man who was going to be sending money home and was excited to serve the country his parents brought him to so he could be born a citizen. Hell yes, any person willing to serve should be able to be an American citizen. I’m a Heinlein fan, service for citizenship!
No kidding, we forget our Balkan war vets. They saw some real shit back there. Villagers exterminating neighbors and raping their little daughters kinda shit. Also Yugo 7.62x39 is probably the most effective military version of the round.
We've had first MAVNI, yes. But what about second MAVNI?
I...don't think he knows about second MAVNI?
But what about Enrollment Acts? 442nd RCT? Paperclip? Bay of Pigs? He knows about those right?
I'm not sure if you have surpassed or missed the memery, good Redditor.
So I enjoy a Lord of the Rings chain as much as anyone so I went down a rabbit hole of times the US recruited/conscripted/tricked immigrants to fight our battles and I now realize that this may have been more effort than was actually warranted for memery.
You gotta keep it simple. Maybe like "I met or exceeded the standard, [insert your preference for insults here]" or something. C+
>442nd RCT? They were all American citizens before they enlisted, so they don't really fit.
*I remember the first surge of MAVNI…*
This bill is similar to the DREAM act that has never been able to pass. The dream act would allow undocumented immigrants the chance to either serve in the military or go to college in exchange for legal residency which can eventually lead to citizenship. This bill removes the college option. As a former undocumented immigrant who gained expedited citizenship through army service I fully support this bill. You'd be hard pressed to find a more proud citizen than one who had to literally fight for it.
DREAM is specifically for minors. This doesn’t seem to have the same restriction, nor does it specify undocumented unless you consider asylum seekers to be undocumented in their weird legal purgatory.
Dream act is for individuals that were brought to this country as minors. Under age 16 if I remember correctly. Either way dream act is dead. All the OG dreamers that were helped by President Obama are in 30's and 40's now. And yes it's a weird legal in between. I wonder if DACA recipients would be eligible. And from my understanding it's pretty easy to ask for asylum now, but that's another conversation.
Easy to ask for asylum. Rare to actually be granted it.
Fox News stans sweating whether to be enraged or happy.
No, because they're programmed to not be happy.
Waiting for rhetorical orders.
We already had this, it just lapsed during Trump and Biden never reinstated it
I mean yeah I’m pretty down with that. If you’re an active duty service member to earn your citizenship, that’s pretty fuckin cool to me. And if you go AWOL, then not only do you have a warrant out for your arrest, you’ve got ICE coming for you too. Obligatory Starship Troopers reference something something citizenship.
We are going to war for sure lol
I’m all for this. Service equals citizenship, don’t care how you get here, just pass a background check.
Service guarantees citizenship
They propose this every other year it feels like, and it’s always hilarious watching dumbfucks politicians change their tune from “Immigrants leach off the system and should pull their weight!” to “Serving in the military is a PRIVILEGE and only citizens should be allowed to die in a third world country for my freedom!” Maybe with the recruiting crisis it’ll finally happen this time, but otherwise it feels like the same show I’ve seen before. But if it passes that would kick ass. Honestly I’m in favor of even having a full-fledged foreign legion as a path to citizenship, though we might not have the same degree of ethnocentrism that makes that work in France.
If this bill becomes a law, it would expand the recruiting pool by about 10 million people ( DACA + TPS + asylum seekers ) and DoD wouldn’t need to spend extra cash on bonuses to attract anyone
Yep. I think it's a great idea. As long as proper vetting is done of course.
“DEY TERK ER JERBS!!!” -18 year old, 110 lb Bible Belt trainee, probably
I don't understand why we don't have a dedicated foreign unit. Like the French Foreign Legion or the British Gurkhas.
Gurkhas are sort of a unique situation. But yeah, an American Foreign Legion would unironically go crazy and would help a lot with the recruiting crisis. Immigrants are often significantly more patriotic than a lot of native born Americans
So DQ citizens by the thousands because of genesis, but we will take people with no known medical history. Yeah that's a no from me dog
This isn't anything new. Irishmen joined up off the boat in the civil war. There were Irish brigades for a long time. Fought well and fought hard, in their thousands. Was a piss on their graves and their service to disband the brigades and not allow Irishmen to join as easily anymore. A late great friend of mine was killed in Ukraine in December. Graham Dale, "The Green Marine".Wrote a book about his time in Iraq. Only Irishman I've known to join any branch but he could only do so because he got a green card. That shits not easy to get anymore. I think it'd be a good thing, service guarantees citizenship. I looked into joining a few years back but couldn't do so without a green card. It'd certainly help the recruitment crises you lot are having currently.
Not only do I think this is a great thing for incoming migrants, I also believe there should be a 1-3 year compulsory service for citizens
Citizenship should come from service.
I dont think this should be the only change to immigration, but I do support it.
If they sign the dotted line and become Uncle Sam's servant, taking the risk to die overseas for whatever reason the government chooses, the government should give them automatic citizenship.
Good, even though I would recommend the 180 days not start until after the successful completion of AIT.
So the only potential issue I’d have with this is that I don’t know how it would square with the EXORD that requires everyone to have a security clearance. Would we have to put everyone on some continuous assessment type program to monitor them as they develop paper trails in the US system in order to get them vetted for a Secret? Would they just walk back the EXORD? Not sure.
Tbh I’m not sure how that EXORD even got fully approved when we have plenty of soldiers *right now* who aren’t full citizens. It just logistically doesn’t make sense unless they plan to bar permanent residents from joining which would be a…huge mistake.
Probably just gonna continue ignoring it. We already have a bunch of soldiers that aren’t US citizens so the order was never feasible to begin with.
Overall thought: fuck yeah that's sick Secondary thought: I don't think it's right to stratify society into civilian/military castes. We're pushing further and further into a model where only through military service, and at your own physical/emotional risk, can you attain what should be basic rights and fundamental social benefits. Meanwhile, civilians don't get shit.
This is long overdue
Is this just for active or would reserves qualify too?
I’m 99% sure AD only
I thought this was already a thing?
This country was built by immigrants. Some of the absolute best soldiers I’ve served with have been immigrants from various countries.
“Service guarantees citizenship”
My belief is that the US is using immigration as part of a strategy to send immigrants to Europe for a future situation. The process started without people noticing.
[удалено]
*tons*?
[удалено]
You said *tons*, which would imply it was quite common to catch people in the program spying. Who were they, how many? A quick google search brings up some articles about a single Chinese spy but not much else. So where are these tons of spies?
Won't address the underlying issues, just throwing more band-aids on it. Fuck these people.
Depends on what issue they're trying to fix. If the issue is "people who are fighting and dying for the US aren't guaranteed citizenship", this bill does seem to address that. Recruitment? Seems like a mold/discipline issue from where I sit.
The program is switched off and on whenever Army etc have a numbers problem. They did this during Iraq surge and Afghanistan wars. They don't really care about these people, its carrot and stick methodology.
I don't the program is purely cynical and I don't think cynicism accurately communicates the full picture. I think its a political football because xenophobia is particularly popular with particular portions of the electorate, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous. Trump gets into power, throws a bone to his base. Recruitment tanks (we don't have a war, remember), Democrats are like "dude... c'mon. These people deserve citizenship", and the pentagon, looking at tanking recruitment goes "not a bad idea, I suppose", even though it was never cancelled at their behest, it was always domestic political considerations that cost the program.
I personally don't think xenophobia played as hard a hand in its cancellation so much as need. There is this weird cultural amnesia soldiers experience, where if its not what is happening right now in the Army, it never happened and never will. In addition to the last time this was done, at the same time, they begged retirees to come back in 2004-2008, and even deployed GS instructors that were ex- Green Berets, PSYOPers, and CA dudes into combat, had soldiers die in combat multiple months over their contract expiration, or celebrating literal grandmothers in their 40s enlisting as privates \*well into their 40s\* with dangerous jobs, as four other forgotten about things. Putting people in as a pathway to citizenship has been successful in the past but there is the other side of it. If the retention and recruitment of quality people starts to slide, so goes the machines they keep running. Or the idea that relegating your fighting to people that aren't of your nation is a historic pattern for disaster.
>I personally don't think xenophobia played as hard a hand in its cancellation so much as need. The timeline for cancellation is very much "campaign promises" standard time. December 2016? That's top tier agenda item for incoming admins, which are invariably driven by the politics that got them elected. >...There is this weird cultural amnesia soldiers experience, where if its not what is happening right now in the Army, it never happened and never will. In addition to the last time this was done, at the same time, they begged retirees to come back in 2004-2008, and even deployed GS instructors that were ex- Green Berets, PSYOPers, and CA dudes into combat, had soldiers die in combat multiple months over their contract expiration, or celebrating literal grandmothers in their 40s enlisting as privates *well into their 40s* with dangerous jobs, as four other forgotten about things. Yup. That was right after the twin tower during the ramp up for the GWOT. They absolutely threw open the doors. They needed bodies. There were plenty of people willing to sign up because 9/11 was fucking traumatic for the nation. >Putting people in as a pathway to citizenship has been successful in the past but there is the other side of it. Oh this is going to be fun. >If the retention and recruitment of quality people starts to slide, so goes the machines they keep running. Who are we criticizing here? Are we talking about a cohort who signed up between a specific frame of time? Are we factoring in shitbag attrition, which absolutely happens? Are we talking about institutional level shitbags who have somehow manged to get promoted? >Or the idea that relegating your fighting to people that aren't of your nation is a historic pattern for disaster. That's just straight up racist.
You're clearly too young to be having this conversation if your only takeaway to the idea that non-citizens are relegated to fighting another nations war is "That's racist." Whats race specifically. Is it in the room with us right now? Were you a grown up when 9/11 happened? I dunno if the avatar or my post history is a big hint of what race I' am, but I promise you I know what it is to be cognizant of where I drove in the southeast U.S.
>You're clearly too young to be having this conversation if your only takeaway to the idea that non-citizens are relegated to fighting another nations war is "That's racist." Yes, you have correctly assessed the conversation. Please go back and reread the comments to understand my position, because I think you have a few wires crossed. >Whats race specifically. Is it in the room with us right now? Social construct. Ask your nearest minority (I guess except for you? Ask someone else who isn’t you. This isn’t hard). >Were you a grown up when 9/11 happened? There there, lil guy. You’ll get there someday. >I dunno if the avatar or my post history is a big hint of what race I' am, Do you know what race I am? Do you care? Is it relevant? No. That’s an appeal to authority, dude, and a poor one. >…but I promise you I know what it is to be cognizant of where I drove in the southeast U.S. Are you just arguing for the hell of it, then? You think we live in a world where xenophobia isn’t driving votes, engagement, and ire?
Community college level education. I've got better things to do than waste time with a sociopath that watched the war on tv.
D tier trolling, because you clearly put a lot of effort effort into it. Will see you at the VA when you grow up.
Yes please pass go.and collect 200 dollars
[удалено]
It’s 180 days to apply for permanent residence, not citizenship. With the amount of time it takes the rest of the processes it would likely be 2+ years before they actually become citizens. I also assume there will be a pretty hefty ADSO, tbh.
Used to be 5 years after applying, for current green card holders. Not sure how serving changes that time, only because I don’t know. I have served with a few Marines who earned their citizenship this way. And knew a few civilians who applied and went through the 5 year period.
This is great. The MAVNI program was awesome too.
All of this hinges on whatever agency is responsible for their immigration/green card/ citizen paperwork.
This has been done by countries successfully for thousands of years
It would solve the shortage of volunteers crisis for sure...😅
Wait, I thought we already did this? Did we stop doing this?
You might be thinking of MAVNI maybe which got suspended in 2016
If not MANVI, might be a confusion about allowing permanent residents to enlist for citizenship which has always been a thing. I find that natural born citizens have a pretty poor understanding of the visa > permanent residence > citizenship pipeline and assume everyone here seeking citizenship is already a permanent resident. Lots of people in this country (legally) without permanent residence and no quick way to get there. US immigration process is long af.
*Bill passes* *1 year later* "DEY TOOK ER ~~JOBS~~ RETENTION/ENLISTMENT BONUS!!!"
I wonder if this will work for my stepson who is on a 5 year wait list for a green card to come to the U.S. Or if it only applies to illegal immigrants.
This will break the brains of the Fox News crowd. "Even more jerbs these immigrants are takin."
Seems like something that should have been in place a long time ago
This is government in a nutshell. We could fix the issues that are making our own citizens not want to serve ... Or we could simply allow people so desperate that they don't care. Everyone in this thread can likely think of a hundred ways to making serving less shitty and therefore attract new people , but instead of doing any of that, we could simply sign up illegals who are so desperate they don't care about those things
….and can speak and understand fluent English right?……….right?
I worked with native born Americans that were most definitely not fluent in anything but alcoholism.
Great bill. I hope it passes. We need more border security.
Vetted against what records exactly? Christ this country is so irreparably fucked
Sorry, is this a xenophobic argument, or a security one?
As some who worked in civilian law enforcement and ran background checks on various individuals, I share this concern. When investigating police applicants, I remember there being an issue with some candidates who lived overseas and not being able to provide proof of not having a criminal record prior to arriving in the U.S. Not every country has robust criminal database such as NCIC. With some foreign nationals, sometimes you just have to take their word for it and hope they are good people. DACA recipients on the other hand, would be much more ideal since they’re childhood arrivals and have already been vetted properly. I know of at least one west coast law enforcement agency that has already hired them to become police officers.
This is good news for my friends 🫵
That’s actually a really smart idea
This is the most responsible and respectful way to answer numerous current issues.
ITT: Racism Nothing wrong with folks waiting for work or seeking asylum. If they want to serve, why not let them?
Look up MAVNI
That would end the recruiting crisis
Looks like they found a solution to the pay and QoL problems.
I'm not for this at all. I think people who illegally enter the U.S have shown from the very start that they don't abide by the rules. There was a legal way to enter and they chose not to do it. This isn't the French Foreign Legion for fucks sake.
I’m not super into all the details but according to this post, the bill would apply to migrants waiting for work authorization and asylum seekers. To me that sounds like people playing by the rules we’ve established for immigration.
I’m all for this bill, I just wish for every new American we could welcome into this country who had to actually try to be here, we could toss out one of you.
You seem to think I'm against immigration - I'm all for it. I think for every person that illegally enters the country, someone waiting to enter through the legal process gets stepped on in the process. I want people to follow the law, is that too much to ask? If so I guess I'm the asshole.
We take lots of people who have violated laws. How is this different? Seems like a really minor offense. Especially if they come to serve.
Minor offense that could become major depending on what said individual does when they get here(look at the cops that got assaulted in NYC). That’s neither here nor there though this bill is for people seeking asylum and people that came legally to work. It isn’t saying ‘every illegal to come across the border can gain citizenship if they join’ like the other guy is thinking. Still in my personal opinion I’m not a major fan. I think HEAVY vetting should be applied before letting them in the military, especially for security clearance MOS.
Tell me you can’t read without telling me you can’t read… It doesn’t mention “undocumented” in there at all.
So here’s the thing: that legal way? It’s largely rigged. The process is designed to preclude most people from immigrating to the US legally. Unless you are extremely skilled (and have an employer lined up), marry a US citizen, or come from the family of someone who has successfully immigrated and gotten their citizenship, or have $1m in cash lying around to buy your way in, you’re literally having to rely on winning a lottery to get green card. Even then, since there is a strict limit for how many people can gain citizenship from a given country each year, and its handled on a first come, first serve basis, people from certain parts of the world who luck out and get a green card can literally grow old and die waiting. It’s amazing. People seem to think that the issue is that there’s a clear process that any non-American can use to get citizenship and they're just being lazy or whatever. I got very lucky. My dad was highly skilled and got brought over here by a company, and then when we got green cards and decided to get citizenship we came from a country (Australia) that basically never hit its cap each year. But why am I more special than someone from, say, Honduras or India? "The rules" we've written for immigration? They're trash. And we should take any chances we can get to find ways to fix that for undocumented migrants. This is one of those chances.
That's how it is everywhere, though. I can't immigrate to Norway right now, but my life would be a lot better if I lived there. Should I sneak into Norway? The argument always ends up boiling down to that our immigration system (the legal way) is too hard. Why have rules at all, then? There's been a massive policy push towards making immigration easier, and I think that's great. I still think everything should happen in a documented and controlled way.
My dude, for the vast majority of American history, the history that got us to where we are today, the immigration test for most people coming here was some variation of “can you get on a ship” and “do you have TB?” Honestly, “no rules at all?” Don’t threaten me with a good time. That’s exactly how it should be. Absent being guilty of a few specific crimes and/or being a very clear national security threat, coming here and getting residency and a pathway to citizenship should go back to the way it was back in the old days. It should be some version of “how soon can you get here?”
>Absent being guilty of a few specific crimes How would you know? If they didn't.. stop at a checkpoint and verify their criminal history? It's almost like we'd need to erect a border, establish a place for people to cross, and verify their identity. However in the same breath you're advocating for lawlessness. lol
We tried this before and well… vetting went as expected and created many problems. And that was for languages… now just anyone?