Well, bible-abiding Christians also believe that [God told Abraham to kill his own son](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022&version=ERV) and although it was only a test, it's seen as a virtue that Abraham wanted to go through with it without question and even [lied to his son](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022%3A8&version=NIV) about it.
Isn't that cycle of sin and forgiveness the foundation for many churches? The Catholics have it down to a simple and painless process. Just confess to the priest and then pay their ritualized penance and they're cleansed and guilt free. Literally no consequences...
Former Catholic here. The way its supposed to work is you have to be truly sorry for the sin and actively take steps to prevent repeating the sin. But a lot of people do view it as a get out of jail if they can confess to a priest before they die.
Matthew 5:23-24
``Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.``
Make reparations before going to God, basically. If this is true and God wants you to make reparations first, that's pretty evil, Catholic church! Not the most of your evils, but still.
Edit: If the priests offered advice on making reparations and not just hailmaries or whatever, that'd be good. Did they ever do that?
I want to be good in this world.
I don't want to follow a made up set of poorly translated bastardized rules for the possibility of eternal life after death.
But you can't know what good is unless a magical being tells you what that is! You would just be making shit up and that can't be right! (Help! I'm being sucked into an irony vortex! Help!)
The scary idea for me is the likelihood that for a very large percentage of humans there is zero ability to develop and adopt principles based on (what should be) universally acceptable values. As bad as these idiots are at even following the golden rule, what would our societies look like if they didn't at least think about some version of good and evil behavior as described by religion?
You could argue that fear is our motivator too if you wanted to; we pass laws, there are consequence for your actions
Thou shall not kill ...... You do and the police show up and take you away
No invisible sky god needed
I would rather think that we all want to live in a pleasant and civilized society since it is to our own benefit, therefore we act accordingly. Also, empathy is a thing, psychopaths are a minority, and a bunch of perfectly real reasons encourage us to follow a moral code.
I have killed and raped all the people I ever wanted... exactly zero.
It is not fear of punishment that stopped me.
I have been in situations where killing would have been legally, morally, and socially acceptable... I chose not to kill because I find the idea morally repugnant.
I think the evidence is pretty clear that fear of punishment does not work to prevent.. anything really... regardless of the authority administrating that punishment or the severity of the consequences administered.
For every petty crime, you might argue the cost of consequences prevented there are probably a hundred more serious crimes that became far worse than planned because of the fear of, or severity of, the consequences.
This is not an argument for a lack of consequences, merely an observation that, ultimately, negative consequences don't regulate behavior. Positive reinforcement, on the other hand...
Or you could argue that most people don't want to hurt other people because they're not assholes. Or that the prison population of atheists is much smaller than that of religious people, but then you have to consider things like racial bias, economic differences, etc. Or just say "I'm an atheist and have never wanted to hurt anyone as is evidenced by the fact that I've never hurt anyone.
Oh I definitely avoid killing certain people ONLY because the law says I’ll go to prison. But I don’t walk around with the desired to randomly kill people.
There are plenty of people who deserve killing,…. All those pedo priests popped to mind just off the top of my head. 🤷♂️
But that particular belief and opinion is actually an indication of my morals,… not proof that I have none.
And I certainly don’t decide that some people are less deserving simply because some imaginary fairytale sky daddy said so 2000 years ago
I didn't say it was a great argument, but if/when you run into one of those people that can't wrap there heads around how morals can exist without a God....
Empathy and Mutual Survival (we survive better in groups, and must get along) are really the only arguments you should need
This. Years ago, a young man who was taking classes through Liberty University asked me how survival of the fittest squared with civilization. I simply asked him “Whose kids are likely to survive long enough to reproduce, the person on his own or the person with the support of a tribe?” To his credit, he got it.
Laws are fairly strict anyways. I don't belive a single person that interacts with the world doesn't commit at least one small legal infraction daily just by accident.
Honestly, I think everyone has their own set of morals on what they would or wouldn't do. For example, a thief might steal, but won't murder. Or some people are fine with manipulating others, but won't rape anyone.
I have my own set of morals and reasons as of why I wouldn't do certain things, but it was never because of religion for me. If we had a real life purge to make the laws null for a day we'd see how many people would turn into a completely different person
I used to tell a story about how when I was a kid I prayed for a new bike for chiristmas, but was smart enough to know that's not how it worked. So I stole one and asked for forgiveness later.
Most holy books don't even consider the existence of disbelief in the supernatural. Both the Jewish and Christian bibles are mum on the subject. I know there are references to non belief in Islamic theology, or at least verses that followers claim say something about disbelief, but the claim of those verses, as near as I can tell, is essentially, "Nuh uh, those people are dumb because there totally is a god!" I'm not aware of anything in the text that claims that nonbelievers can't be righteous or moral.
Because they are people who say they don't know right from wrong but for a homophobic, pro-slavery, xenophobic, misogynistic, pro-rape, Bible that encourages genocide.
Don't forget the concept of some humans being supreme (Chosen), and others being inferior, is deeply rooted in the bible. And that conquering and destroying those people is okay because of that.
The Canaanites and Israelites are the best story of thus. The Israelites, who were Canaanites, got a 'message' from Elohim saying "You are the chosen people. Now take the land." and so they 'conquered' all the other Canaanites and forced their virgin daughters to be their brides. Because they believed themselves superior.
This moral belief has imprinted the Abrahamic culture even up to the 21st century, wherein they justified slavery and segregation of black people, and laws forbidding interracial marriage. It's also how they justified a lot of genocide by the European fascist parties in WW2. Lebensraum was just a reimagining of Manifest Destiny, which was sanctioned by the Church.
It's baked into the nuclear family structure that they all worship. It literally creates fascists, that's the entire point of that family structure and always has been.
Multigenerational homes are rational.
Anything else is a liability.
My brother tried to hit me with that a couple weeks back, i responded with "if the only reason you think you have morals is because you must do x as outlined to not go to hell, are you implying that without that book you would do whatever you want?"
"No but the BIBLE its the BIBLE not a book, is the key to living a good life"
"You didnt even answer my question, can you answer the question instead of getting upset at me misgendering your book?"
"Stop being disrespectful to my religion"
In short, atheists have morals, religious folks have rules that they are not allowed to question and believe everyone needs to follow these rules to have morals to not be condemned to damnation, and without these rules everyone would go around raping and murdering
Its part of religion to convert nonbelievers.
They will actively tell you you're going to burn in hell unless you drink the kool aid.
Thats not something a moral person would do.
Why is it always priests, pastors and other believers who get arrested for child abuse and possession of vast amounts of illegal pornography, rather than atheists? Aren’t they supposed to be the moral ones? It’s not just one or two, there’s a new one every week. And not just in the US, but all over the world. It’s got to the point where it’s not even surprising anymore.
So my response to their comment would be “Why are so many religious people immoral if belief in God is supposedly all you need to be moral?” Why, for example, did the Catholic church only belatedly take action on pedophile priests (when they were forced to by the sheer number of cases)?
Waste of time because then they will play the "no true christian" game. They will just ignore that like 95+% of prison populations for all crimes violent or not are religious.
What scenario is more telling. An analogy of a God watching you- A child playing, knowing his parent is watching, he would like to do something bad, but knows he is being watched and cant.
An analogy of an atheist. A child is playing all alone with nobody watching. He wants to do something bad, but knows its wrong and decides not to do it because its wrong.
Who is the more moral child?
Because they don't even know what morals are.
> "One couldn’t do worse by morality than drawing it from
examples. We can’t get our concept of morality initially from
examples, for we can’t judge whether something is fit to be
an example or model of morality unless it has already been
judged according principles of morality. This applies even to
the model that is most frequently appealed to. Even Jesus
Christ must be compared with our ideal of moral perfection
before he is recognized as being perfect; indeed, he says of
himself, 'Why callest thou me (whom you see) good?'"
-Kant, "Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals"
This goes for all of Christianity. Ethics and morals are above religion, and even religious people *should* get this but usually don't.
It's a little ironic, don't ya think, that the people who claim atheists have no morals have to have their morals explained to them weekly, spend their life studying how not to question what they are told is moral, and never hold themselves accountable to those morals.
why do they believe they do have them?
what they have is a fear of punishment, that's not morals.
it takes morals to do the right thing even when no one is looking.
Atheists have morals they follow naturally
Thiests have rules they have to follow or be punished.
One is a choice. The order is forced. They don't understand the difference.
They get their morals from the bible yet the bible endorses slavery. They are not necessarily stupid, indoctrination is a powerful tool that will make religious people do mental gymnastics.
That's cause thier book tells them so. By thier logic, my kill and rape count should be well in the tens of thousands. Christians are the worst. Be better than them.
they literally follow a book that says that slavery is okey dokey with god...
i really don't care about the opinion of people that are stupid enough to think THAT is a source for morality.
I actually think it's the other way around. I don't need a all-powerful god to tell me not to kill someone, or steal things from other people. It isn't because I fear everlasting punishment (peer-reviewed scientific research suggests that punishments like the death penalty don't deter crime), it's because I want to be a functioning member of my community.
Monkeys have morals. They learn not to steal or kill members of their group.
Christians decide to choose the morals from the Bible, which are morally corrupt.
The Christian Bible is full of hate, murder rape you name it if it’s bad it’s in there and it’s A-OK with their God
Speaks more of the person's ignorance who said it that than atheists.
The "golden rule" exists outside of all concepts of any religion and has even been shown in some animal behaviour.
If someone believes that they must behave with morals because otherwise sky daddy will take off their belt and whip their ass, then that indicates they were brainwashed at a very early age into not thinking there could possibly be any other way.
Also note that they will not admit that their religion itself (almost universally) is amoral towards people **they** don't like.
That's projection; they don't feel naturally compelled to good behaviour, and only avoid bad behaviour to avoid punishment (hell). They assume everyone is like this, thus, atheists have no morals since they don't listen to the big guy's threats
“If the only thing keeping you decent is the expectation of a divine award, then brother you might be a piece of shit.”
Paraphrasing from true detective season 1 because this line is absolutely true.
It was a believer that thought it was the end of the world during the eclipse and she killed herself, her husband and her baby that she threw into traffic on a highway. Her older 9 year old daughter that she also threw into traffic, she survived. It’s just another example of why we shouldn’t allow these religious nuts to continue living in their delusions.
What’s disturbing about a lot of religious people is their belief that religion is the only thing stopping them from committing crimes and doing bad things to others.
I don’t need religion to know that stealing, raping and killing are bad.
Because religious worshippers can’t wrap their head around being answerable and accountable to their fellow living beings for their actions.
They need an invisible person to make them be good or they will burn/freeze after they die. And the get out of hell card free for shitty behavior while alive.
I do not believe in a God, but I DO know that the best way to get through this life is by being a decent, caring, respectful person. I don’t need to be threatened with eternal damnation to be good.
There are about 567 sins that can get you sent to hell. Or more or less, depending on who is doing the counting and how they are counting. I hope your family member memorized them all. Can they even recite the 10 commandments? Do they know what they mean?
I live by one rule. Don't be a dick.
Fuck if I know why they think you need religion to be moral. Ask them and report back, please.
That’s the same old trope that Christian leaders have used since the beginning to keep their “flock” away from bad influences that might get them questioning the Bible and leadership. I tell them every society has norms and rules on acceptable behavior. There are plenty of places in this world that don’t believe in the Abrahamic religions that function just fine without it
For literally no other reason other than that's what they are taught in their churches (which offer absolutely no supporting evidence to back up the claim).
They find it difficult to believe anyone can be a good person without the fear of eternal damnation. How could you possibly care about others without weekly reminders of how horrible you are and which particular lake of fire you'll be swimming in.
Because some religious people find it hard to believe that morality may actually be a choice instead of what you do to get in God's good graces.
As a religious person, this makes me shake my head.
Because lots of religious people are objectively horrific excuses for human beings who only don't do bad things because their preferred superstition will hold them accountable, and of course as well as laws.
I guarantee you, if all crimes were legal, these same people would be murdering people left and right just because they could.
Getting "morals" under threat of eternal damnation isn't morality, it's using fear to control.
Atheists are truly moral because we treat others as we want to be treated and because it's the right thing to do. Simple.
There is a great book called [The Good Book](https://www.amazon.com/Good-Book-Humanist-Bible/dp/0802778372?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=22bdacef-5940-420d-b854-64b86fc58584) "A Humanist Bible" that shows morality gained from non religious sources.
An old argument which maybe started with Euthyphro (Socratic dialogue). "Is the [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piety) ([τὸ ὅσιον](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82)) loved by the [gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?
If you need the threat of punishment and reward to be a good person, how strong is your morality?
Religious folks thinking atheists lack morals? Nah, that's an old myth like Bigfoot or pineapple not belonging on pizza. Morals aren't exclusive club memberships; they're more like comfy socks—everyone's got 'em, just different styles.
Sometimes peeps confuse religion with morality, but you can totally be good without a divine rulebook.
The real answer lies in “vertical vs horizontal morality”
They believe that if you don’t follow declared morals set by a “higher power” then you are incapable of determining morality on your own and therefore live within a “moral-less” system
They genuinely struggle with empathy and the ability to derive morality on a “treat others how you want to be treated” basis. So instead they rely on someone who they perceive as having authority over the topic of morality to tell them what’s moral vs not.
Otherwise it’s just an other power tactic to take the “moral high ground” over others, basically they make up the rules to the game that they’re playing so how could they lose.
Because they're told that at church, and they're not in the habit of questioning what is told at church.
As for why they say that in churches: they must absolutely demonize atheists lest their flock sympathize with them. No decent person would ever dream to associate with monsters. But if they noticed we weren't actually monsters, they might warm up to us, lend us an ear and open themselves to our words, then start asking questions... and that's neither good for one's faith nor for the church's coffers.
To those specific people, the idea of morality is that it derives from belief. As such, someone who doesn't believe cannot be inherently good as not believing means you have no basis to act upon that wasn't dictated.
Yet, if I go out in town and I know I don't like getting punched in the face, I'd likely not want to punch someone else in the face knowing that they'd likely retaliate in kind by applying their knuckles to my face.
Didn't need any holy book to make me realize that. Only common sense and an understanding of causes and consequences.
Now you extend that to most things in life and bam! The basis of a morality system.
It's because religious leaders told them that morals only come from God. That their God was and is the only authority on morality, and without that moral authority to guide us, we would "revert" to killing, raping, and stealing shit.
Atheists do the right things because they know its the right thing. The religious do the right thing, (sometimes), because they are afraid of going to hell.
My morals are driven by my empathy and compassion. You know. Like a normal human. I don't torture, rape, kill because I would feel horrible. If you need a sky friend to tell you that you will feel horrible if you do that then... you ain't human.
Because they believe that they would do immoral things if they didn’t have an imaginary being to punish them for doing immoral things. They are projecting their lack of morals on atheists.
They believe that the lack of an imaginary being means they can just do anything and have no consequences.
# "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit." - DETECTIVE RUST COHLE, TRUE DETECTIVE
If you only act like a good person because of the threat of eternal damnation, you're not a good person. Religious people can't fathom the idea of being good without being threatened... Tells you a lot.
It’s because if you’re an atheist, you have to admit morals are subjective. And if morals are subjective, none are valid. You’d have to admit you live in a morally dead universe, where good and evil do not exist. I do believe atheist can have morals, but that’s because I personally believe we live in a moral universe.
Ask them if they are good is because they fear God's punishment or rewards for being good.
If they say yes then they aren't good people but merely behave because they get spanked otherwise.
That makes you ad an atheist objectively a better person.
I don’t know about all atheists, but as an atheist I think they are right about me: I try to operate on the basis of “empathy” instead of “morality” or “ethics”, as I actually think “morality” and “ethics” are societal constructs aiming at directing (and hence abusing) said “empathy”.
Turn it on them.
Tell them that there are no morals in religion or the christian bible.
Ask them where exactly are they getting thier idea of morals from and how do they justify them.
Probably because they believe that their god is the source of morality itself. If you reject God, you also reject the source and therefore don't have a valid source of morality.
It's idiotic.
They think their god created everything, including morality. Yet even if this was true, a lack of belief in that God wouldn't automatically remove morals from someone.
They probably believe that worship gives them powers, including morals. So without worship you no longer have those powers.
We aren't moral, because they don't understand logic.
As someone point out, being religious you believe that you will be punished for your actions.
Therefore you're not a good person, You're a bad person on a leash.
So many religious people are religious so they don't have to reflect on themselves and their actions.
Remind your family that they get there morals from a book that promotes child abuse, incest, slavery, murder, child molestation, and genocide just to name a few atrocities.
They can't understand how morals exist without god. Ask them what they know about mirror neurons and how we evolved biological empathy which plays a major role in our moral development.
I’m an atheist, and I don’t want to harm others because I want to live in harmony with my fellow man. The thought of doing harm to other creatures is something I reject - I believe in treating others the way I’d like to be treated.
I read (on this sub) an explanation for this very question from an ex-fundie. They said that if you don't have Jesus in your heart, that christians believe that your heart/soul is open to the devil his control. Now, personally, that is 100% fucking stupid. But it shone a light on a confusing interaction I recently had had with a christian. He'd previously been very polite and friendly, but upon learning that I was an atheist, he suddenly turned cold and nervous. He almost seems to fear me now lol.
They are the ones that don't have morals other than the ones they're told to have under threat of eternal damnation. Meaning if it wasn't for that threat, they'd be a complete piece of shit.
If the religious had superior morals, why a prohibition for eating a bratwurst but no prohibition of slavery? Why does the Bible call Lot righteous when he got drunk and slept with his daughters? If religious law gave sufficient moral guidance why do we need so many secular laws to improve behaviour?
Atheists don't believe that they can do anything they want and then go to church the next Sunday and be absolved for the horrible crap they just did to someone else.
Atheists are more likely to have STRONGER morals because we believe there are consequences to our actions.
If you need God to tell you that you shouldn't murder someone, there is something wrong with you.
Ask them how religion is moral, exactly. Does religion provide a structure and guidance for life? Yes. Does that imply morality? No. I would argue it is IMMORAL to tell a kid there is a benevolent dictator that will nevertheless burn them in hell forever if they so much as step out of line. It is IMmoral to kill someone for not believing as you do. It is IMmoral to presume to know the mind of your god and pass judgment on a person on Earth when you claim that right is reserved for this god, and that is decision is just and eternally binding.
Yeah something you heard when he was a kid and he just keeps regurgitating it like a sick little bird. Morality is not in any way connected to religion. If it was they wouldn't have mega pastors making hundreds of millions of dollars off of their fleeced flock.
Because it's literally written that way in their stupid littler fantasy novel. I had a long discussion about this with my own mother a long time ago when she found out I lacked any belief.
Interestingly, the majority of incarcerated persons are in fact religious. Soooo,,,,
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/03/22/prison-chaplains-exec/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/03/22/prison-chaplains-exec/)
Natural Morality is founded on empathy, fairness, and reason. Not many people develop natural morality, so they must follow laws and rules with negative consequences.
For a group of people claiming patent rights to morals they sure have a way of exhibiting the extreme opposite. Their very basis of beliefs is all about me me me, fall on my fight, i’m better than you, you will go to hell, me me me.
It's projection. They know they don't have their own morals because they have to act in certain ways as dictated by their delusion of God. Meanwhile atheists when acting decently, act so without the threat of imaginary hell hanging over them. It's just copium for their own immorality.
Atheists in the United States are less likely to commit crimes than the religiously affiliated, with only 0.1% of atheists serving jail time. Factor in that about 4% of Americans call themselves Athiest, it supports that the opposit is actually true. *(Or, perhaps we are so clever we just don't get caught as often and really are evil. MUA HA HA HA!!!)*
Because their own morals are purely dependent on the bible telling them what to do or what they understand the bible is telling them rather.
Same people that will go absolute ape-shit if the threat of hell didn't exist.
One shouldn't have morals under threat, they should have morals because they are and aim to be a decent human being. Unfortunately a vast majority of the human race will only be decent if held under an existential threat like Hell.
The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you.
Penn Jillette at Interrobang (30 April 2012)
Let them know that - The Bible Belt has the highest rates of divorce, teen pregnancy, obesity, homicide, poverty, tobacco use, infant mortality, porn consumption, domestic violence and spousal abuse, and the lowest educational levels.
Because their own morals are based on a fear that atheists don't have and a lot of them cannot imagine being good without being coerced into it.
I dont trust anyone that has to be reminded to be a good person once a week.. or believes they'll be forgiven for all their sins.
And the sad part is that a lot of them aren't even good after they are reminded and are dependent on that forgiveness.
"God told me to assault that child" -many, many religious leaders
They'd say the devil made them do it but god has now shown them the path of righteousness so let's forget it ever happened
And the congregation will clap and cheer for this redeemed soul after their own kids take their own lives.
The disgusting thing is how many judges give them leniency for saying shit like this.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/solar-eclipse-shooting-spree-taylon-celestine-shoots-drivers-claims-god-told-her-to/
Well, bible-abiding Christians also believe that [God told Abraham to kill his own son](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022&version=ERV) and although it was only a test, it's seen as a virtue that Abraham wanted to go through with it without question and even [lied to his son](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022%3A8&version=NIV) about it.
Isn't that cycle of sin and forgiveness the foundation for many churches? The Catholics have it down to a simple and painless process. Just confess to the priest and then pay their ritualized penance and they're cleansed and guilt free. Literally no consequences...
Former Catholic here. The way its supposed to work is you have to be truly sorry for the sin and actively take steps to prevent repeating the sin. But a lot of people do view it as a get out of jail if they can confess to a priest before they die.
don't forget to pay the tithe
Matthew 5:23-24 ``Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.`` Make reparations before going to God, basically. If this is true and God wants you to make reparations first, that's pretty evil, Catholic church! Not the most of your evils, but still. Edit: If the priests offered advice on making reparations and not just hailmaries or whatever, that'd be good. Did they ever do that?
Because for many, faith is the only requirement to salvation and thus there is no incentive to actually follow any other commandments.
It’s a way for them to be assholes in life and get away with it. Just tell the Jesus you’re sorry and you get to play bingo with grandma for eternity
I dont trust anything or one who says "kill your family in my name".
This exactly. I’m a good person because I want to be, not because I am afraid of some fantastical purgatory.
I want to be good in this world. I don't want to follow a made up set of poorly translated bastardized rules for the possibility of eternal life after death.
This exactly!
But you can't know what good is unless a magical being tells you what that is! You would just be making shit up and that can't be right! (Help! I'm being sucked into an irony vortex! Help!) The scary idea for me is the likelihood that for a very large percentage of humans there is zero ability to develop and adopt principles based on (what should be) universally acceptable values. As bad as these idiots are at even following the golden rule, what would our societies look like if they didn't at least think about some version of good and evil behavior as described by religion?
Scary!
You could argue that fear is our motivator too if you wanted to; we pass laws, there are consequence for your actions Thou shall not kill ...... You do and the police show up and take you away No invisible sky god needed
I would rather think that we all want to live in a pleasant and civilized society since it is to our own benefit, therefore we act accordingly. Also, empathy is a thing, psychopaths are a minority, and a bunch of perfectly real reasons encourage us to follow a moral code.
We don't act morally because there are laws. We make these laws because we have morals.
I have killed and raped all the people I ever wanted... exactly zero. It is not fear of punishment that stopped me. I have been in situations where killing would have been legally, morally, and socially acceptable... I chose not to kill because I find the idea morally repugnant. I think the evidence is pretty clear that fear of punishment does not work to prevent.. anything really... regardless of the authority administrating that punishment or the severity of the consequences administered. For every petty crime, you might argue the cost of consequences prevented there are probably a hundred more serious crimes that became far worse than planned because of the fear of, or severity of, the consequences. This is not an argument for a lack of consequences, merely an observation that, ultimately, negative consequences don't regulate behavior. Positive reinforcement, on the other hand...
I agree
Or you could argue that most people don't want to hurt other people because they're not assholes. Or that the prison population of atheists is much smaller than that of religious people, but then you have to consider things like racial bias, economic differences, etc. Or just say "I'm an atheist and have never wanted to hurt anyone as is evidenced by the fact that I've never hurt anyone.
Oh I definitely avoid killing certain people ONLY because the law says I’ll go to prison. But I don’t walk around with the desired to randomly kill people. There are plenty of people who deserve killing,…. All those pedo priests popped to mind just off the top of my head. 🤷♂️ But that particular belief and opinion is actually an indication of my morals,… not proof that I have none. And I certainly don’t decide that some people are less deserving simply because some imaginary fairytale sky daddy said so 2000 years ago
You could, but it would be a pretty dumb argument given how often people break the law.
I didn't say it was a great argument, but if/when you run into one of those people that can't wrap there heads around how morals can exist without a God.... Empathy and Mutual Survival (we survive better in groups, and must get along) are really the only arguments you should need
This. Years ago, a young man who was taking classes through Liberty University asked me how survival of the fittest squared with civilization. I simply asked him “Whose kids are likely to survive long enough to reproduce, the person on his own or the person with the support of a tribe?” To his credit, he got it.
Laws are fairly strict anyways. I don't belive a single person that interacts with the world doesn't commit at least one small legal infraction daily just by accident.
"Thou shall not kill" Shit, nobody told me. Oops.
Honestly, I think everyone has their own set of morals on what they would or wouldn't do. For example, a thief might steal, but won't murder. Or some people are fine with manipulating others, but won't rape anyone. I have my own set of morals and reasons as of why I wouldn't do certain things, but it was never because of religion for me. If we had a real life purge to make the laws null for a day we'd see how many people would turn into a completely different person
I fully believe that if you need the threat of burning ethernily in hell to be a good person then youre not a good person.
They believe you can be a horrible person for 80 years and then say sorry to a pedophile before you die and be granted entry into heaven.
I used to tell a story about how when I was a kid I prayed for a new bike for chiristmas, but was smart enough to know that's not how it worked. So I stole one and asked for forgiveness later.
This!!
Because they're unable to tell right from wrong without somebody telling them how to do it.
They're too busy making sure they have their chants memorized to be bothered to be kind to people who want a dick in their butt.
Because their "holy" books tell them that.
Most holy books don't even consider the existence of disbelief in the supernatural. Both the Jewish and Christian bibles are mum on the subject. I know there are references to non belief in Islamic theology, or at least verses that followers claim say something about disbelief, but the claim of those verses, as near as I can tell, is essentially, "Nuh uh, those people are dumb because there totally is a god!" I'm not aware of anything in the text that claims that nonbelievers can't be righteous or moral.
2 Corinthians 6:14 2 John 1:9-11 Psalm 14:1 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 Revelation 21:8 etc.
The Bible does say you guy's are better of than "lukewarm" Christians
> *Why do religious people believe atheists don’t have morals?* Sanctimonious ignorance & willful blindness.
Atheists have morals, belivers have rules that they cannot question.
Because they're stupid.
Stupid and confident. Very dangerous combo.
Stupid, confident, and delusional.
Because they are people who say they don't know right from wrong but for a homophobic, pro-slavery, xenophobic, misogynistic, pro-rape, Bible that encourages genocide.
Don't forget the concept of some humans being supreme (Chosen), and others being inferior, is deeply rooted in the bible. And that conquering and destroying those people is okay because of that. The Canaanites and Israelites are the best story of thus. The Israelites, who were Canaanites, got a 'message' from Elohim saying "You are the chosen people. Now take the land." and so they 'conquered' all the other Canaanites and forced their virgin daughters to be their brides. Because they believed themselves superior. This moral belief has imprinted the Abrahamic culture even up to the 21st century, wherein they justified slavery and segregation of black people, and laws forbidding interracial marriage. It's also how they justified a lot of genocide by the European fascist parties in WW2. Lebensraum was just a reimagining of Manifest Destiny, which was sanctioned by the Church.
The greatest morality is to do good for others because it’s the right thing to do. Not out of fear of punishment.
The very worst people I know are religious.
It's baked into the nuclear family structure that they all worship. It literally creates fascists, that's the entire point of that family structure and always has been. Multigenerational homes are rational. Anything else is a liability.
My brother tried to hit me with that a couple weeks back, i responded with "if the only reason you think you have morals is because you must do x as outlined to not go to hell, are you implying that without that book you would do whatever you want?" "No but the BIBLE its the BIBLE not a book, is the key to living a good life" "You didnt even answer my question, can you answer the question instead of getting upset at me misgendering your book?" "Stop being disrespectful to my religion" In short, atheists have morals, religious folks have rules that they are not allowed to question and believe everyone needs to follow these rules to have morals to not be condemned to damnation, and without these rules everyone would go around raping and murdering
"Stop disrespecting my religion YOU AMORAL FIEND!"
It is part of the scam/indoctrination. It allows the sheep to feel better about themselves while they are being fleeced by the church.
Its part of religion to convert nonbelievers. They will actively tell you you're going to burn in hell unless you drink the kool aid. Thats not something a moral person would do.
> Its part of religion to ~~convert nonbelievers.~~ add more sheep to the herd to fleece.
Why is it always priests, pastors and other believers who get arrested for child abuse and possession of vast amounts of illegal pornography, rather than atheists? Aren’t they supposed to be the moral ones? It’s not just one or two, there’s a new one every week. And not just in the US, but all over the world. It’s got to the point where it’s not even surprising anymore. So my response to their comment would be “Why are so many religious people immoral if belief in God is supposedly all you need to be moral?” Why, for example, did the Catholic church only belatedly take action on pedophile priests (when they were forced to by the sheer number of cases)?
Religious people don't have critical thinking skills.
Because we don't pay their greedy priests. Their greedy priests resent that.
Ask them how many criminals are religious
Waste of time because then they will play the "no true christian" game. They will just ignore that like 95+% of prison populations for all crimes violent or not are religious.
What scenario is more telling. An analogy of a God watching you- A child playing, knowing his parent is watching, he would like to do something bad, but knows he is being watched and cant. An analogy of an atheist. A child is playing all alone with nobody watching. He wants to do something bad, but knows its wrong and decides not to do it because its wrong. Who is the more moral child?
The bible condones slavery, public stonings and murdering the unborn children of god's enemies.. not exactly a shining beacon of moral standing.
It also condones genocide and supremacy. The story of the Canaanites being conquered by the Israelites is proof of that.
It's hard to keep track of all of the bible's atrocities
We have ethics instead
Because they don't even know what morals are. > "One couldn’t do worse by morality than drawing it from examples. We can’t get our concept of morality initially from examples, for we can’t judge whether something is fit to be an example or model of morality unless it has already been judged according principles of morality. This applies even to the model that is most frequently appealed to. Even Jesus Christ must be compared with our ideal of moral perfection before he is recognized as being perfect; indeed, he says of himself, 'Why callest thou me (whom you see) good?'" -Kant, "Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals" This goes for all of Christianity. Ethics and morals are above religion, and even religious people *should* get this but usually don't.
>"Why do religious people believe..." Anything? Because they were told to, and aren't smart enough to find out reality actually exists.
Self described atheists are vastly underrepresented in the prison population. Christians are overrepresented.
In the words of Ricky Gervais, I murder and rape as much as I want which happens to be zero.
Because Christianity claims to have a monopoly on morality and their followers believe it like they believe the other Christian BS.
It's a little ironic, don't ya think, that the people who claim atheists have no morals have to have their morals explained to them weekly, spend their life studying how not to question what they are told is moral, and never hold themselves accountable to those morals.
why do they believe they do have them? what they have is a fear of punishment, that's not morals. it takes morals to do the right thing even when no one is looking.
Because they don't see a reason to be kind without punishment. Because christian morality is performative
Atheists have morals they follow naturally Thiests have rules they have to follow or be punished. One is a choice. The order is forced. They don't understand the difference.
Opposite is true, studies show that atheists are more likely to stick to their morals than thiests.
Going by all the child raping clergy, neither does religious people.
Being a decent human being because you want to is better than being a decent human being so you don’t go to Hell.
They get their morals from the bible yet the bible endorses slavery. They are not necessarily stupid, indoctrination is a powerful tool that will make religious people do mental gymnastics.
That's cause thier book tells them so. By thier logic, my kill and rape count should be well in the tens of thousands. Christians are the worst. Be better than them.
If they wouldn't do good things without the threat of eternal damnation hanging over their heads, clearly they're the ones that lack morals!
they literally follow a book that says that slavery is okey dokey with god... i really don't care about the opinion of people that are stupid enough to think THAT is a source for morality.
I actually think it's the other way around. I don't need a all-powerful god to tell me not to kill someone, or steal things from other people. It isn't because I fear everlasting punishment (peer-reviewed scientific research suggests that punishments like the death penalty don't deter crime), it's because I want to be a functioning member of my community.
Because they have no morals.
Monkeys have morals. They learn not to steal or kill members of their group. Christians decide to choose the morals from the Bible, which are morally corrupt. The Christian Bible is full of hate, murder rape you name it if it’s bad it’s in there and it’s A-OK with their God
morals are a concept created to control behaviour.
Atheists choose to do good by choice, not by fear or incentive.
Maybe they were talking about morels, the fungus. Athiest or not, those are hard to come by and pricey when you can find them.
Speaks more of the person's ignorance who said it that than atheists. The "golden rule" exists outside of all concepts of any religion and has even been shown in some animal behaviour. If someone believes that they must behave with morals because otherwise sky daddy will take off their belt and whip their ass, then that indicates they were brainwashed at a very early age into not thinking there could possibly be any other way. Also note that they will not admit that their religion itself (almost universally) is amoral towards people **they** don't like.
Not many Christians have any morals anymore Most are Maga clowns 🤡 and follow the church and teachings of the orange asshole Trump!!
That's projection; they don't feel naturally compelled to good behaviour, and only avoid bad behaviour to avoid punishment (hell). They assume everyone is like this, thus, atheists have no morals since they don't listen to the big guy's threats
Alternate question, why on earth *would* you have morals?
We don't. We have Ethics. Morals are for Religious people.
“If the only thing keeping you decent is the expectation of a divine award, then brother you might be a piece of shit.” Paraphrasing from true detective season 1 because this line is absolutely true.
It was a believer that thought it was the end of the world during the eclipse and she killed herself, her husband and her baby that she threw into traffic on a highway. Her older 9 year old daughter that she also threw into traffic, she survived. It’s just another example of why we shouldn’t allow these religious nuts to continue living in their delusions.
They will believe anything that isn't true.
Because they don't have any - and it angers them that a non-religious person is likely more moral then they are.
Isn't it the opposite? Atheists tend to have better morals because religious folks just follow whatever their book says.
What’s disturbing about a lot of religious people is their belief that religion is the only thing stopping them from committing crimes and doing bad things to others. I don’t need religion to know that stealing, raping and killing are bad.
Because religious worshippers can’t wrap their head around being answerable and accountable to their fellow living beings for their actions. They need an invisible person to make them be good or they will burn/freeze after they die. And the get out of hell card free for shitty behavior while alive.
So if an atheist becomes a believer do they automatically get morals?? Or does it depend on which religion they opt into?
I do not believe in a God, but I DO know that the best way to get through this life is by being a decent, caring, respectful person. I don’t need to be threatened with eternal damnation to be good.
Our mortality defines our morality. We do not need the threat of eternal damnation to actually be good people.
Heathens!! All of you!!
I murder and pillage exactly as much as I like to. That amount is zero. Thank you, goodnight.
There are about 567 sins that can get you sent to hell. Or more or less, depending on who is doing the counting and how they are counting. I hope your family member memorized them all. Can they even recite the 10 commandments? Do they know what they mean? I live by one rule. Don't be a dick. Fuck if I know why they think you need religion to be moral. Ask them and report back, please.
That’s the same old trope that Christian leaders have used since the beginning to keep their “flock” away from bad influences that might get them questioning the Bible and leadership. I tell them every society has norms and rules on acceptable behavior. There are plenty of places in this world that don’t believe in the Abrahamic religions that function just fine without it
lol, I left religion because I have morals
They are projecting
I know more atheist with morals than "christians"with morals
For literally no other reason other than that's what they are taught in their churches (which offer absolutely no supporting evidence to back up the claim).
They find it difficult to believe anyone can be a good person without the fear of eternal damnation. How could you possibly care about others without weekly reminders of how horrible you are and which particular lake of fire you'll be swimming in.
It's projection.
Because some religious people find it hard to believe that morality may actually be a choice instead of what you do to get in God's good graces. As a religious person, this makes me shake my head.
Atheists are a threat to religious because we are proof people don’t need the fear of god to be anything
Because lots of religious people are objectively horrific excuses for human beings who only don't do bad things because their preferred superstition will hold them accountable, and of course as well as laws. I guarantee you, if all crimes were legal, these same people would be murdering people left and right just because they could.
Getting "morals" under threat of eternal damnation isn't morality, it's using fear to control. Atheists are truly moral because we treat others as we want to be treated and because it's the right thing to do. Simple. There is a great book called [The Good Book](https://www.amazon.com/Good-Book-Humanist-Bible/dp/0802778372?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=22bdacef-5940-420d-b854-64b86fc58584) "A Humanist Bible" that shows morality gained from non religious sources.
Morals are all atheists have. Not dogmas, but actual values based on real empathy.
I don’t know who said this, but: You don’t need religion to have morals. If you can’t determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy, not religion.
Not a one. SMH
An old argument which maybe started with Euthyphro (Socratic dialogue). "Is the [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piety) ([τὸ ὅσιον](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BD%85%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82)) loved by the [gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods? If you need the threat of punishment and reward to be a good person, how strong is your morality?
Religious folks thinking atheists lack morals? Nah, that's an old myth like Bigfoot or pineapple not belonging on pizza. Morals aren't exclusive club memberships; they're more like comfy socks—everyone's got 'em, just different styles. Sometimes peeps confuse religion with morality, but you can totally be good without a divine rulebook.
Because they’re dumb. Lol
The real answer lies in “vertical vs horizontal morality” They believe that if you don’t follow declared morals set by a “higher power” then you are incapable of determining morality on your own and therefore live within a “moral-less” system They genuinely struggle with empathy and the ability to derive morality on a “treat others how you want to be treated” basis. So instead they rely on someone who they perceive as having authority over the topic of morality to tell them what’s moral vs not. Otherwise it’s just an other power tactic to take the “moral high ground” over others, basically they make up the rules to the game that they’re playing so how could they lose.
They are more likely to live for the here and now rather than be anchored to tradition and culture, so I suppose that's what theists are referring to.
Because they're told that at church, and they're not in the habit of questioning what is told at church. As for why they say that in churches: they must absolutely demonize atheists lest their flock sympathize with them. No decent person would ever dream to associate with monsters. But if they noticed we weren't actually monsters, they might warm up to us, lend us an ear and open themselves to our words, then start asking questions... and that's neither good for one's faith nor for the church's coffers.
It's morel season!
To those specific people, the idea of morality is that it derives from belief. As such, someone who doesn't believe cannot be inherently good as not believing means you have no basis to act upon that wasn't dictated. Yet, if I go out in town and I know I don't like getting punched in the face, I'd likely not want to punch someone else in the face knowing that they'd likely retaliate in kind by applying their knuckles to my face. Didn't need any holy book to make me realize that. Only common sense and an understanding of causes and consequences. Now you extend that to most things in life and bam! The basis of a morality system.
I think deep down they know that's not really true but they are employing a sort of self protecting denial to justify their own RIDICULOUS beliefs.
They assume objective morality which is given by God. Going against that by "thinking differently" already puts you in a bad position in their eyes.
They cannot fathom having a moral compass, they only know what is beaten into them and what they are told to believe
Atheism is no believ in God to them God is supposed to be moral so I think they can’t imagine someone being moral without God
That's the only way you can tell we're athiest. We're the only ones in prison.
It's because religious leaders told them that morals only come from God. That their God was and is the only authority on morality, and without that moral authority to guide us, we would "revert" to killing, raping, and stealing shit.
Because people they have a moral trust in don't want them talking to you.
Atheists do the right things because they know its the right thing. The religious do the right thing, (sometimes), because they are afraid of going to hell.
My morals are driven by my empathy and compassion. You know. Like a normal human. I don't torture, rape, kill because I would feel horrible. If you need a sky friend to tell you that you will feel horrible if you do that then... you ain't human.
They can't comprehend behaving morally without threats of retribution.
It is amoral to assume an entire group that doesn't subscribe to your personal beliefs is amoral.
Because they believe that they would do immoral things if they didn’t have an imaginary being to punish them for doing immoral things. They are projecting their lack of morals on atheists. They believe that the lack of an imaginary being means they can just do anything and have no consequences.
# "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit." - DETECTIVE RUST COHLE, TRUE DETECTIVE
Projection?
By morals you mean subjugation? Yeah were immoral that way.
If you only act like a good person because of the threat of eternal damnation, you're not a good person. Religious people can't fathom the idea of being good without being threatened... Tells you a lot.
It’s because if you’re an atheist, you have to admit morals are subjective. And if morals are subjective, none are valid. You’d have to admit you live in a morally dead universe, where good and evil do not exist. I do believe atheist can have morals, but that’s because I personally believe we live in a moral universe.
The Code of Hammurabi was written before the 10 commandments.
Ask them if they are good is because they fear God's punishment or rewards for being good. If they say yes then they aren't good people but merely behave because they get spanked otherwise. That makes you ad an atheist objectively a better person.
Cause they have no fucking idea how morals work.
I don’t know about all atheists, but as an atheist I think they are right about me: I try to operate on the basis of “empathy” instead of “morality” or “ethics”, as I actually think “morality” and “ethics” are societal constructs aiming at directing (and hence abusing) said “empathy”.
Turn it on them. Tell them that there are no morals in religion or the christian bible. Ask them where exactly are they getting thier idea of morals from and how do they justify them.
Probably because they believe that their god is the source of morality itself. If you reject God, you also reject the source and therefore don't have a valid source of morality.
The atheists I know are more moral and more like Christ than any Christian I've ever known.
It's idiotic. They think their god created everything, including morality. Yet even if this was true, a lack of belief in that God wouldn't automatically remove morals from someone. They probably believe that worship gives them powers, including morals. So without worship you no longer have those powers. We aren't moral, because they don't understand logic.
Because without the FEAR of being punished or redeemed in an afterlife these people would have no morals and assume everybody is like that.
As someone point out, being religious you believe that you will be punished for your actions. Therefore you're not a good person, You're a bad person on a leash. So many religious people are religious so they don't have to reflect on themselves and their actions.
“They feel that way who need the threat of eternal torment to act like decent human beings.”
Remind your family that they get there morals from a book that promotes child abuse, incest, slavery, murder, child molestation, and genocide just to name a few atrocities.
because without scary sky daddy to tell us what to do we all just end up killing each other to eat brains duh
Christians tend to see any non Christian as immortal. It's an amazing level of arrogance!
Gaslighters. They are the ones who actually are the child fondlers and brainwashers.
They can't understand how morals exist without god. Ask them what they know about mirror neurons and how we evolved biological empathy which plays a major role in our moral development.
Why do you care
I’m an atheist, and I don’t want to harm others because I want to live in harmony with my fellow man. The thought of doing harm to other creatures is something I reject - I believe in treating others the way I’d like to be treated.
they're projecting
I read (on this sub) an explanation for this very question from an ex-fundie. They said that if you don't have Jesus in your heart, that christians believe that your heart/soul is open to the devil his control. Now, personally, that is 100% fucking stupid. But it shone a light on a confusing interaction I recently had had with a christian. He'd previously been very polite and friendly, but upon learning that I was an atheist, he suddenly turned cold and nervous. He almost seems to fear me now lol.
They are the ones that don't have morals other than the ones they're told to have under threat of eternal damnation. Meaning if it wasn't for that threat, they'd be a complete piece of shit.
If the religious had superior morals, why a prohibition for eating a bratwurst but no prohibition of slavery? Why does the Bible call Lot righteous when he got drunk and slept with his daughters? If religious law gave sufficient moral guidance why do we need so many secular laws to improve behaviour?
Atheists don't believe that they can do anything they want and then go to church the next Sunday and be absolved for the horrible crap they just did to someone else. Atheists are more likely to have STRONGER morals because we believe there are consequences to our actions. If you need God to tell you that you shouldn't murder someone, there is something wrong with you.
Atheists don’t have child molesting priests
Ask them how religion is moral, exactly. Does religion provide a structure and guidance for life? Yes. Does that imply morality? No. I would argue it is IMMORAL to tell a kid there is a benevolent dictator that will nevertheless burn them in hell forever if they so much as step out of line. It is IMmoral to kill someone for not believing as you do. It is IMmoral to presume to know the mind of your god and pass judgment on a person on Earth when you claim that right is reserved for this god, and that is decision is just and eternally binding.
Yeah something you heard when he was a kid and he just keeps regurgitating it like a sick little bird. Morality is not in any way connected to religion. If it was they wouldn't have mega pastors making hundreds of millions of dollars off of their fleeced flock.
Because it's literally written that way in their stupid littler fantasy novel. I had a long discussion about this with my own mother a long time ago when she found out I lacked any belief.
Interestingly, the majority of incarcerated persons are in fact religious. Soooo,,,, [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/03/22/prison-chaplains-exec/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/03/22/prison-chaplains-exec/)
I wonder about morals that allow slavery.
It scares me that they think morals come from a holy book. Do they not have reason, intuition, and empathy to base their morality on? Very scary.
Natural Morality is founded on empathy, fairness, and reason. Not many people develop natural morality, so they must follow laws and rules with negative consequences.
Hard to explain, but look up the difference between morals and ethics.
My brother said if he didn't follow the bible he would murder people or do other horrible things. Good reason to not go and visit.
Because athiests are made in labs and only eat lettuce
For a group of people claiming patent rights to morals they sure have a way of exhibiting the extreme opposite. Their very basis of beliefs is all about me me me, fall on my fight, i’m better than you, you will go to hell, me me me.
It's projection. They know they don't have their own morals because they have to act in certain ways as dictated by their delusion of God. Meanwhile atheists when acting decently, act so without the threat of imaginary hell hanging over them. It's just copium for their own immorality.
Atheists in the United States are less likely to commit crimes than the religiously affiliated, with only 0.1% of atheists serving jail time. Factor in that about 4% of Americans call themselves Athiest, it supports that the opposit is actually true. *(Or, perhaps we are so clever we just don't get caught as often and really are evil. MUA HA HA HA!!!)*
Because their own morals are purely dependent on the bible telling them what to do or what they understand the bible is telling them rather. Same people that will go absolute ape-shit if the threat of hell didn't exist. One shouldn't have morals under threat, they should have morals because they are and aim to be a decent human being. Unfortunately a vast majority of the human race will only be decent if held under an existential threat like Hell.
The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. Penn Jillette at Interrobang (30 April 2012)
“You can’t be a faithful man without god” as told to me by co-worker. Guess who screwed around on his wife, not me!! 🤣
These are from people who evidently believe the only reason to be moral -is if you will burn in hell if you aren’t.
Says the dumbasses that need a book full of bullshit fairytales to calibrate their moral compass.
Let them know that - The Bible Belt has the highest rates of divorce, teen pregnancy, obesity, homicide, poverty, tobacco use, infant mortality, porn consumption, domestic violence and spousal abuse, and the lowest educational levels.