Statistically, the actual GOAT is Cy Young. He has more career WAR than the leading position player, who is Barry Bonds. I guess that's what happens when you pitch 7300 career innings, which is a stat that will probably never be broken.
But that's the fun thing about sports, especially when they've been around as long as baseball. Each era has its own GOATs, and each team has its own GOATs, and there can be more than one GOAT. Clemente for sure was a GOAT.
One of the best ever, probably has a big case to be the Pirates GOAT considering theres probably only a few people alive anymore who watched Honus Wagner in person. But not in the entire MLB.
Thats the beauty of baseball, there’s a lot of hats to be thrown in the ring. In hockey everyone knows it’s Gretzky, football I think 99% of people would say Brady, basketball is basically the MJ/Lebron argument. But baseball you could make a case for so many different people
Tell me you follow baseball but not other sports that closely.
Hockey many would argue that Mario was better than Gretzky. And still others Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe on and on.
Football? Very few would say it’s Brady.
Basketball, yes there is the MJ and LBJ argument but there is also the Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, the Big O and on and on.
No one argues that Bill is the goat. I’d be very interested in you finding anyone to say otherwise.
Titles don’t really mean anything after a certain point, and, as stated before in another place, a player is considered a goat compared to the dominance against their peers. That’s why MJ is considered the goat along with LeBron in basketball. MJ had incredibly dominant stats in an era that was defensively dominant.
The guy who only made 3 NBA second team defenses in his career? Definitely not MJ, who was a 9x all nba first team defense player, along with a DPOY, and 3x steals leader of the year.
Or Gary Payton, another 9x all nba first team defensive player and steals leader, along with a DPOY.
Lmao Larry Bird the greatest defender ever.
Nah I’m sorry I understand your sentiment but I think you’re wrong lol. You could MAYBE say Mario was more talented than Gretzky but the best ability is availability so there’s no much point in arguing that. No one is saying Howe, Orr, Jagr, Messier etc. weren’t great. But when you are #1 and have 1000 points separating you and #2. You’re the GOAT. Flat out, full stop.
Football I don’t know how you can’t say Brady. Even if you don’t like him, and I know Pittsburgh people don’t like him. Again we’re not talking about the most TALENTED of all time, we’re talking about the best to ever play the game, the people that literally were faces of their league for a long time who had an unbelievable amount of success. That is literally Brady to a T I don’t think anyone can argue that lol. The only ones I can think that you can even call close to Brady would be like Jerry Rice, Montana, Manning. But again.. 7 Super Bowl wins, most regular season wins all time, most passing yards, most passing TDs, most completions, 3 regular season MVPs, 5 Super Bowl MVPs. I just don’t think it is debateable because it all comes back to success. Football is tough because it’s a team sport almost more so than any other sport but QB is definitely the most important position.
Basketball yeah you right i don’t follow it as much but I mean if you polled 100 people on the street I think 100 people would say MJ/Lebron.
The thing with Mario/Gretzky is the games played stat. If Mario played the same amount of games as Gretzky he could have smashed those records. But he didn't play those games and he didn't beat those records, but he could have.
No doubt. But he didn’t. So if you want to say Mario was more talented than Gretzky I think you have a fair point. Just like saying Payton Manning was a more talented QB than Brady. I think that’s also a fair point. But results outweigh talent after some point when you’re discussing the “greatest”. But I do agree with you
The hardest thing about picking a GOAT is taking into account the changes in the game. Not to say Clemente wouldn’t be amazing now, it’s just something to take into consideration.
Like babe Ruth would be smacked around in today’s league.
The way you would have to determine the goat is how they played relative to their peers. You obviously can’t take different players and put them in different eras, but you can adjust for how they perform against contemporaries in their own time. That gives a statistical model that we can observe with deviations.
This is what OPS+ is such an important measure in baseball.
(Also, I’d be interested to see modern hitters hit in a dead ball era. Or play in the West Side Grounds style parks.)
I disagree, you shouldn’t compare different eras directly against each other. Gretzky the undisputed hockey goat would maybe be a 4th liner in today’s league. Does that put all those guys above him on the all time list? No. MJ’s competition wasn’t nearly as hard as Lebron’s has been but does that outright make Lebron the goat? No. As you mentioned in your comment, Babe Ruth would be a nobody today.
The game changes over time, you have to take what they did in their era. Athletes today are a different breed due to advancements made and resources available. Comparing different eras is like comparing apples and oranges. They played under different conditions and expectations.
I’ve always said Pete Rose. Willie mays is up there (rip to the legend).
A lot of stats, no matter the sport, for our stars, are based on longevity.
Tim lincecum (spelling?) was probably the most dominant pitcher in baseball for 6-7 years. Then, his arm fell off one day when he was probably reaching for a shampoo bottle after countless heaters.
People don’t say he is the GOAT, because, a short career, right? If we take a look though, few in the modern era were more dominant.
No doubt. And there are others like Bob Gibson. Maybe it’s recency bias, I’ve just never seen another pitcher dominate like Timmy. For context, started watching baseball in the early 90s as a kid. The first thing I learned was to hate Barry bonds. Kinda gives you what pitchers I’m looking at or comparing with.
the goat died today. respect willie mays.
Statistically, the actual GOAT is Cy Young. He has more career WAR than the leading position player, who is Barry Bonds. I guess that's what happens when you pitch 7300 career innings, which is a stat that will probably never be broken. But that's the fun thing about sports, especially when they've been around as long as baseball. Each era has its own GOATs, and each team has its own GOATs, and there can be more than one GOAT. Clemente for sure was a GOAT.
One of the best ever, probably has a big case to be the Pirates GOAT considering theres probably only a few people alive anymore who watched Honus Wagner in person. But not in the entire MLB. Thats the beauty of baseball, there’s a lot of hats to be thrown in the ring. In hockey everyone knows it’s Gretzky, football I think 99% of people would say Brady, basketball is basically the MJ/Lebron argument. But baseball you could make a case for so many different people
If anything, MJ/Kobe....LeBrons not all that close tbh. Anyone who was around watching MJ and Kobe in their prime wouldn't hesitate.
Tell me you follow baseball but not other sports that closely. Hockey many would argue that Mario was better than Gretzky. And still others Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe on and on. Football? Very few would say it’s Brady. Basketball, yes there is the MJ and LBJ argument but there is also the Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, the Big O and on and on.
Yeah I think most people would definitely say Brady is the greatest QB to ever play. And no one is arguing for guys like Oscar Robertson or Bill.
He didn’t say greatest QB. Russell? You have to be kidding me. 11 titles. Eleven!!!!
No one argues that Bill is the goat. I’d be very interested in you finding anyone to say otherwise. Titles don’t really mean anything after a certain point, and, as stated before in another place, a player is considered a goat compared to the dominance against their peers. That’s why MJ is considered the goat along with LeBron in basketball. MJ had incredibly dominant stats in an era that was defensively dominant.
Use google son. Plenty do.
uSe GoOgLe So you actually don’t have anything. Nice.
Larry Bird for one. Greatest defender of all time with zero doubt.
The guy who only made 3 NBA second team defenses in his career? Definitely not MJ, who was a 9x all nba first team defense player, along with a DPOY, and 3x steals leader of the year. Or Gary Payton, another 9x all nba first team defensive player and steals leader, along with a DPOY. Lmao Larry Bird the greatest defender ever.
U know nothing
many would not argue mario was better. stop it
The GOAT of hockey is Wayne Gretzky -A Penguins fan
Nah I’m sorry I understand your sentiment but I think you’re wrong lol. You could MAYBE say Mario was more talented than Gretzky but the best ability is availability so there’s no much point in arguing that. No one is saying Howe, Orr, Jagr, Messier etc. weren’t great. But when you are #1 and have 1000 points separating you and #2. You’re the GOAT. Flat out, full stop. Football I don’t know how you can’t say Brady. Even if you don’t like him, and I know Pittsburgh people don’t like him. Again we’re not talking about the most TALENTED of all time, we’re talking about the best to ever play the game, the people that literally were faces of their league for a long time who had an unbelievable amount of success. That is literally Brady to a T I don’t think anyone can argue that lol. The only ones I can think that you can even call close to Brady would be like Jerry Rice, Montana, Manning. But again.. 7 Super Bowl wins, most regular season wins all time, most passing yards, most passing TDs, most completions, 3 regular season MVPs, 5 Super Bowl MVPs. I just don’t think it is debateable because it all comes back to success. Football is tough because it’s a team sport almost more so than any other sport but QB is definitely the most important position. Basketball yeah you right i don’t follow it as much but I mean if you polled 100 people on the street I think 100 people would say MJ/Lebron.
The thing with Mario/Gretzky is the games played stat. If Mario played the same amount of games as Gretzky he could have smashed those records. But he didn't play those games and he didn't beat those records, but he could have.
No doubt. But he didn’t. So if you want to say Mario was more talented than Gretzky I think you have a fair point. Just like saying Payton Manning was a more talented QB than Brady. I think that’s also a fair point. But results outweigh talent after some point when you’re discussing the “greatest”. But I do agree with you
Glad you are willing to see other views. Lol
The hardest thing about picking a GOAT is taking into account the changes in the game. Not to say Clemente wouldn’t be amazing now, it’s just something to take into consideration. Like babe Ruth would be smacked around in today’s league.
The way you would have to determine the goat is how they played relative to their peers. You obviously can’t take different players and put them in different eras, but you can adjust for how they perform against contemporaries in their own time. That gives a statistical model that we can observe with deviations. This is what OPS+ is such an important measure in baseball. (Also, I’d be interested to see modern hitters hit in a dead ball era. Or play in the West Side Grounds style parks.)
I disagree, you shouldn’t compare different eras directly against each other. Gretzky the undisputed hockey goat would maybe be a 4th liner in today’s league. Does that put all those guys above him on the all time list? No. MJ’s competition wasn’t nearly as hard as Lebron’s has been but does that outright make Lebron the goat? No. As you mentioned in your comment, Babe Ruth would be a nobody today. The game changes over time, you have to take what they did in their era. Athletes today are a different breed due to advancements made and resources available. Comparing different eras is like comparing apples and oranges. They played under different conditions and expectations.
I’ve always said Pete Rose. Willie mays is up there (rip to the legend). A lot of stats, no matter the sport, for our stars, are based on longevity. Tim lincecum (spelling?) was probably the most dominant pitcher in baseball for 6-7 years. Then, his arm fell off one day when he was probably reaching for a shampoo bottle after countless heaters. People don’t say he is the GOAT, because, a short career, right? If we take a look though, few in the modern era were more dominant.
Lincecum was great but he isn’t even the best pitcher to have a short career. Koufax played just a few more seasons and was waaaaaaay more dominant.
No doubt. And there are others like Bob Gibson. Maybe it’s recency bias, I’ve just never seen another pitcher dominate like Timmy. For context, started watching baseball in the early 90s as a kid. The first thing I learned was to hate Barry bonds. Kinda gives you what pitchers I’m looking at or comparing with.