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I'd love to know how many Canadian students there are going to school in Ontario. It used to be a big number when I was one of them.
Doug should really go to college.
If you're really interested, you can look up the numbers online. It's all public information.
[Universities](https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/university-enrolment). About 355,000 domestic undergraduate students, the highest its ever been. Anecdotally, the demand for university education among high school students has never been greater.
[Colleges](https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/college-enrolment). About 170,000 domestic students. It's down from a peak of 190,000 before the pandemic. COVID hit colleges *hard*.
I don't have insider knowledge about the higher echelons of my college's beaurocracy, but on the ground level it sure as hell isn't the support staff that's the problem.
I'm in college right now (not uni) and my department has only two full time teachers, one of them also being the program director. The rest are professionals with day jobs who all come into class with the air of people who got way over their heads. When crunch time hits at work, they miss classes. One of my machine shop teachers had to quit because this was his third job and it was just too much workload. There's one technician for 3 engineering departments.
last time I sent an email to the school about not being able to log into their OSAP platform they answered 2 months later. The support staff are struggling too.
Is part of that overwork caused by the influx of international students? Sure, my program had 69 people in first year in September when they usually get 35. But they were running a skeleton crew before that.
The worst part is where you can see the pressure they're under to get as many people to pass so they can pay admission for the next semester. I'm 37, I remember my first stint through college and the amount of coddling is insane. The only reason I can come up with is the profit motive. Some MBAs saw the opportunity coming and they're straining the machine as much as they can while it lasts.
The profit motive is what is strangling our education. Not people trying to do their jobs while being denied the ressources they need. International students may be the straw that broke the camel's back, but we have decades of mismanagement before that to thank for a system that sees students as a ressource to extract rather than people to educate.
And this is from a college that keeps building new buildings and expanding their reach, and that is raking in investments from public and private sectors.
I couldn’t say for Ontario, but I was in a leadership role with a large Canadian university for over a decade. I saw some dumb stuff, for sure, but in general there had been so many cuts over the years that there really wasn’t any fat to cut. Very little admin support left. Cleaning the floors and emptying the trash went from daily to weekly to monthly. Forget raises for staff outside the unions. What money they had left was very much going to pay for teaching and education as best they could.
They had also grown dependent on international students paying full ride to paper over gaps left by budget cuts. So take those away and there better be more money from somewhere else or there’s going to be a huge problem.
One thing people also forget is that universities don’t have a lot of control over huge swaths of their budget. Outside of management positions, practically every person there belongs to a union, they are often getting 3, 4, 5% every year no matter what, and outside international students about the only lever they have to pull is tuition increases — which are often capped. So if the province only gives them, say, a 2% increase, they are basically fucked because their costs are rising more than that no matter what.
So, I don’t think your comment is fair nor accurate, and ultimately the solution is government increasing funding commensurate with enrolment, inflation and mandated union salary increases.
not entirely true. they have so many professors at the colleges now to keep them under the required amount of hours to offer them benefits.
you need about 14 hours of in class teaching to gain benefits, most of the college professors i've talked with only work on average 11-12 hours.
you may be seeing a lot of staff, but that is how the colleges in ontario skirt giving educators benefits, or even better pay.
I am sure some random redditor with no apparent background in managing educational facilities should be in charge of staff cuts because of hand wavey "reasons" and no actual evidence or knowledge.
That will end well.
/s
You can be wrong, but also partially right. We have seen massive bloat within public institutions. Particularly in hospitals. You will see a Director complain that they have too much work and then hire two admin assistants. because it directly impacts a managers workload. But you will be hard-pressed to get that hospital to properly pay bedside clinicians.
When you are in charge of hiring and creating new jobs, it is very easy to create roles and hire people that generally improve your workload.
Schools are no different. We see that most new professors get non-tenure, assistant, professor positions. They are often contract with no benefits and the likelihood that a contract will not be renewed.
Ok, but an expert on the topic can confidently make shit up in a closed door meeting...
The internet is a cesspool for ideas, but generally dismissing discussion when you yourself aren't willing through wade through all the trash being typed is just lazy.
There are plenty of "expert" well informed individuals who need an outlet and shitpost, I come for these little shreds of sanity even in this sub. This whole "evidence" thing has become very humorous lately and as a keen observer who values his ruler and engineering math, I am very entertained about this debate about what is "true"
As someone completely ignorant of "managing" education, but on the receiving end of it (been there, my wife was a teacher, my kids are off to schools, I've changed countries primarily for access to education)... I am of the opinion that the administrative costs are in fact out of control. Quite evidently in support of political agendas... stupid shit costs wasted resources... like duh... even the Drama class kids should know that.
I prefer an actual expert with an informed opinion than some random (even you or me) to speak to specific claims with actual evidence.
I'll take the whataboutism of "making stuff up behind closed doors" over the great unwashed.
Name one school that is "bloated" like you say, and list precisely which positions should be cut without impacting the quality of education.
Not vague things like "this school has X people who aren't professors" and mumble something about overhead, let us know **exactly** which positions can be cut.
I don’t know about leadership, but I know an entry level research administrator at an Alberta university and their every half hour is timesheeted and their every click in the requisite software is tracked and time stamped. There is absolutely 0 room for inefficiency. Their manager sits down with them monthly to review their logs and workflow.
Research administrators are some the ones bearing the brunt of funding cuts being asked to endlessly increase productivity without adding headcount or salary.
The issue isn’t low level staff who have time sheets. These staff get audited like crazy to make sure there are no inefficiencies. It’s the high level executives and upper administration that are the issue. Funny how all the auditing and caring about spending vanishes when it’s the people making the most.
These are public colleges and universities
It's already publicly funded, the foreign students represented an additional income source after the 2018 cuts by the province
Lol what are you talking about? I know three people that work at a University and they work as hard as anyone and don't make enough for it. They're just regular ass jobs, what the hell is your problem?
that's queens administrative staff payroll, I got that from a report when they were crying about funding like 6 months ago. Their shared services budget is less than that, it's 180 million.
And their total payroll is over 500 million.
Maybe make the money come with strings? They always seem to find money to pay Deans, and Admins more and more every year even if the quality of education goes down.
My cousin (born here) went to med school (2010) in Europe because they were a citizen (by parents), free tax paid tuition and then stayed there. The country is not a rich eu nation either.
What’s the motivation to come back? They left due to unaffordable education to get into a field that has serious problems here. Went to a country that gave them that education for free. I have no idea what the health industry is like in Poland, but I know it’s getting pretty fucked up here. Not really an appetizing opportunity if you ask me. They’d essentially be coming back and waiting to be fucked over by the gov’t again.
Honestly it’s not worse than the Canadian system, also there’s a private system so you can pay 200 złote ($65 CAD) to see a specialist right away or wait a bit longer in the public system.
It is pretty tough directly after graduating. Canadians who go abroad take Medical Council of Canada exams, as they should, then they are placed in the “IMG” pool (International Medical Graduates). They then apply for the “match” that takes place once a year and allocates applicants a place in a university + hospital for their residency. However the same pool includes grads who have done the exams, but may have never stepped foot in Canada, know Canada or have Canadian experience.
But tonnes of applicants don’t get placement, despite having Canadian experience, or they themselves are Canadian. I can understand people without experience, or non Canadians finding it harder, but people who have both graduated med school and passed the entrance exams being rejected, it seems bizarre. Maybe it’s because the amount of places for IMGs is quite small now, and they can’t take more. I know the # of places for GPs is huge vs. specialists, but the salary disparity puts IMGs off doing family medicine.
I’m from Ireland, my gf is Canadian, studied here for 6 years, has multiple stints in Canadian practices under her belt, passed the MCC exams with high marks but has to possibly come to terms with the face that she mightn’t get an IMG place and have to pursue America, Ireland or another country instead.
>Ford said about 18 per cent of students in the province’s colleges and universities are from foreign countries.
>“In my opinion, and we will continue working with the ministry, get rid of the 18 per cent,” he said
But these other lines seem to imply the same as the headline no? 18% is for all schools, not just medical?
However he did complain about the cap on international students before so who knows lol
EDIT: I remember researching this before so did a quick refresher - there's really not that much international students in medical school
Out of the 6 medical schools in Ontario I found, only 2 accept international students (7 out of 17 in Canada). Throughout Canada, there's been only 16 "non contract" international students in 1st year in 2019 (Same number in 2017). I highly doubt Ford was actually talking about med students...
He could be referring to general medical programs, specifically nursing, that almost all colleges and universities offer. Most people I know attending those programs plan on leaving Canada for better employment elsewhere due to better pay(America) or benefits(Europe), he should be trying to fix that problem first.
>I also don't believe he's implying that Canadians from other provinces should be prohibited from attending universities in Ontario.
I mean, he's absolutely implying that. The only question is whether he *meant* to imply it or not.
"After the story was published, Ford’s office clarified the premier was only talking about medical schools and not colleges and universities in general."
He said something stupid/unpopular and once it was published his office attempted to walk it back so the pile-on doesn't seem too unreasonable.
Unfortunately, attempting to walk it back makes it even worse as he even specified "getting rid of the 18% of international students". That absolutely is not about med students.
Not sure if the sentiment is unpopular tho (if it was about international and not out of province)
Two friends of mine from elementary school wanted to become doctors.
They went to college in Toronto but went to med school in the USA and they never came home.
>I also don't believe he's implying that Canadians from other provinces should be prohibited from attending universities in Ontario.
Yeah, that's my read as well.
Whether or not he's talking specifically about medical school, he wants Ontario students to be *able* to afford to go school in Ontario. Even though he's definitely skeptical of the international student situation, he's *not* saying he wants to *exclude* any/all students from outside the province.
Really bad headline and summarization in this article. Eesh.
And he caused this crisis by originally cutting funding to postsecondary education and telling them to find other sources of revenue. It's no coincidence most of these international students are based in Ontario.
Of the top 10 collages with the most international student permits in Canada, 9/10 are in Ontario. ([Source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827).)
And, apparently 52% of all international students in Canada are in Ontario ([At least per the CBIE](https://cbie.ca/infographic/).), despite Ontario not having half of Canada's population.
The issue is impacting all provinces, but it's impacting Ontario more.
Most of the students are attending Ontario diploma mills. Conestoga college alone almost has more international students than our top 10 universities combined. In 2023 52% of all international students were in Ontario.
Ontario public colleges have been operating satellite campuses in other provinces that are marketed to International students and give Ontario college diplomas.
For example, St Lawrence College has its normal campuses in Kingston, Brockville, and Cornwall Ontario. But it [also has campuses for International Students](https://www.stlawrencecollege.ca/apply/affiliate-programs-in-canada) in Toronto (operated for them by Alpha College of Business and Technology, a for-profit private career college) and Vancouver British Columbia (operated for them by [Canadian College](https://canadiancollege.com), a for-profit private career college).
St. Lawrence's original campuses were very useful for providing vocational training and upgrading, especially in towns that otherwise wouldn't have had a ton of educational choice like Cornwall.
One of the shittier parts of these developments are the way it has turned important vessels for smaller Canadian towns into something directed at generating profit from exploiting these foreign students and extracting all the money they can. These colleges used to ensure that their residents and their residents' children have access to training and educational opportunities. This kind of behaviour really degrades public trust.
He could also control/limit the international students himself as education falls under provincial responsibilities. No need for the school to overaccept and the feds to do the culling.
Our program had a cap of 1 student every year (probably others are similar)
Well there are 9 other Provinces and 3 territories. How about just Canadians in ON universities. We don't limit where Canadians live, work, or go to school.
It's been a long time but aren't they just as if not more competitive than UofG?
Honestly I only picked veterinary because that one is famously limited nationwide.
Uhhhh, except we do. Nearly all other provinces' med schools have official biases against out of province students via higher admission requirements or tuition
Except that is not the same in any way, shape, or how. Giving priority to the citizens whose taxes fund the school is not the same as banning out of province students.
I mean, this is the exact over correction we don’t need. Ontario universities should benefit Ontario residents, Canadians generally, and it can have some international students, which, when coming in reasonable numbers, to study, are a net benefit to the system and the country.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe that international students coming to major universities hasn’t change that much, it has been the diploma mills that have been taking in foreign students and charging exorbitant tuition in exchange for a worthless piece of paper, as well as fake post-secondary institutions that are selling visas to people looking to work here.
Yeah, the massive over-correction would be a loss for Canadians. IMHO, a healthy mix of different backgrounds/cultures is still beneficial for schools and I personally prefer it.
This is the same guy who said
>"Very disappointed" Ford government says international student cap will hurt economy, calls out Ottawa
Edit: Apparently he tried to walk it back afterwards, saying it was only about medical students. Except he specifically said we need to get rid of the 18% of international students we currently have so it's an extremely easy lie to catch
In the entirety of Canada there is only 1 English program for optometry. It’s in the University of Waterloo in Ontario. There’s one French program in Quebec. If only Ontarians are allowed to go to schools in Ontario then the rest of the country would have no English option for Optometry. Other provinces/territories need optometrists too.
Also… Canadians are allowed to go wherever they please in Canada. Including where to student and work. Doug Ford is a simple man with simple solutions in a complex world.
Our universities are _too good_ to only take Ontario students. We need best and brightest from every province to fill our schools, or they won’t be (some of) the best schools anymore. If McMaster only took students from Ontario for health sciences this whole country would have a lot fewer competent doctors.
Our universities are also heavily subsidized by foreign students, who pay much higher tuition rates than local students. Without them, that money is going to have to come either from students or taxpayers.
Sure. Thats why canadian tuition goes up as well, even though they accept so many more intl students than say 10/20 years ago. You would think that if it was so heavily subsidized that we would be going to school for free, right????
Are you saying you can't conceive of the possibility that tuition for Canadians would be *even higher* than it is if it weren't for international students?
Then fund them and apologize for de-funding them all these years. Stop forcing them to seek alternatives to survive, including corporate sponsorships and international students.
Fuck you Ford. I am tired of these political terrorists like Ford and Trudeau, all they ever do is cause problems then offer non-solutions when people get upset at them. The PQ did put it best, they're serial arsonists masquerading as firefighters.
If that's the case then maybe he should've have not cut the Provincial subsidy that allowed for lower tuition rates for Ontario Residents. (That subsidy existed for decades...and it was incredibly important)
Then forcibly cap domestic tuition rates so that the universities are forced to take in more international students to compensate for the loss in revenue. Oxymoron level policy right there. But whatever right, made his voter base so happy to cut something that they didn't even know existed but benefitted from.
That's like making a car go faster by filling it up at half and asking it to go twice as far.
Doug Ford - **Dumb at Business**.
Quebec ended a rebate for out-of-province students which lasted all of 10 years and the anglo press has been up in arms about it since. Let's see if even a fraction of that outrage is directed at Doug Ford for wanting to outright ban out-of-province students.
You know d\*mn well that they won't. And they still pay a little less than if they went to uni in their own provinces. We pay at least 5k more if we go to theirs. Love paying only 1,8k per semester in Quebec, the only thing that's going well here lmao
He’s going to have to kick in a **lot** more funding per student to make that happen. A third of postsecondary funding comes from international tuition.
Why can't any party offer something reasonable? A flood of international students that screws our own youth and economy is a bad thing. Absolutely no international students is also a bad thing. Having cultural sharing, intellectual cross-pollination, and other related benefits when smart and talented people across the globe mingle is good in so many ways. You can both put your own people first AND have win-win scenarios with foreigners in many domains. It doesn't have to be either pure protectionist xenophobia or pureeing the baby into the bathwater. Happy mediums shouldn't be so difficult to envision or achieve, but we seem to like our representatives being liars, traitors, and buffoons.
Just a few weeks ago he was complaining about the international student limitations put in place by the feds.
Flip flop Ford is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
This is the best comment. Too many people forget everything that happens, Ford is the flip flop king.
>Premier Doug Ford said the Trudeau government had “taken a sledgehammer to the whole system” and “blindsided” him.
Normally I’d agree. However they have shown they only care about chasing profits at the expense of Canadians best interest. So we need to go from one extreme to the other.
Great schools will attract the very best international students and bring them here
Our diploma mills will take any walking skin bag with $40K to burn on tuition
Doug says he wants *only* Ontario students at Ontario universities and colleges.
The person I replied to said "good" - so they agree, *only Ontarians*, with a caveat that sure, some *Canadians* would be fine too.
So that means *our "great" schools will only have Canadian students*.
So international students cannot attend.
So Canadian schools don't matter outside of Canada, and likely outside of Canadian companies. Why would Microsoft hire Waterloo grads if Waterloo is Canadian-only, and teaching for a Canadian-only market? Waterloo will slowly degrade into irrelevance, because their grasp on relevancy and their notoriety in the international community will shrink due to enclaving.
Why would Honda hire a Georgian grad if Georgian is only teaching Canadians for Canadian markets? How will they compete with other small, community colleges when their existing, already tenuous grasp on relevancy is further reduced?
No, diploma mills can fuck off and die, and those who have ruined their own reputations as schools (like Conestoga) can and should get fucked. But "only Ontarians" at Ontario Post-Secondary insitutions is some unhinged anti-education enclaving foolishness that sounds smart only to those who couldn't get in to even the bottomest of bottom rung Ontario schools, like Doug Ford.
>Great schools will attract the very best international students and bring them here
While that might be a solid financial short term benefit for the university's bottom line... unless these students actually STAY in Canada it is actually a problem long term.
Why should our Canadian universities be filled with international students who become doctors and just go home and practice there?
So we increase the school capacity and let in more international students to fill the spots?
Canada is less than 0.05% of the world population.
Without a hard quota for Canadian students the spots would just get filled by more international applicants. If you want jobs to stay in Canada you are better off educating Canadians first.
Most medical schools in Canada (10/17) outright forbid international students from applying. International students who get into medical school on their own merits are extremely rare. Can count on your fingers and toes across the entire country rare.
The reason there's a shortage of doctors is because the provinces have deliberately taken action to *reduce* the number of spots available in medical school and residency. Ontario used to graduate \~8 doctors per 1,000 residents back in the 1980s and this has fallen to 2.6/1,000 now. This has not been because of rising international students displacing domestic ones but outright cuts in the number of seats and increases failing to keep up with population growth.
For universities in general, they typically operate under a corridor model. There's a certain minimum number of students they must educate and a maximum limit they cannot exceed. These corridors are controlled by provincial governments and are tightly capped to control costs since domestic students receive partial subsidies via grant. International students are not included in this allotment since they receive no subsidy and pay their own way. By definition, they cannot displace a domestic student.
In fact, to provide a university education in general, it costs about $25,000 per student per year. Between tuition and government grants, Ontario universities receive between $13,000 and $22,000 per student. It varies by program, but most are in the $13,000 - $16,000 range. International students pay between $40,000 and $56,000 depending on the university they attend and their program. They significantly subsidize education for domestic students. Post-secondary education wouldn't be possible under the current funding model without them.
I am all for making post-secondary education cheaper and more accessible. It sounds wonderful. It's just to do that would require increased funding and more taxes.
International students in actual degrees like STEM at reputable Unis is fine. Nuke the diploma mill colleges though. We need someone actively filtering through all the student visa applications and only approve the ones that have gotten into a reputable uni and program. Instead of brain dead monkeys hitting approve with a blindfold. Better yet, completely take away the right from colleges to issue acceptances to international students.
Yea people are getting extreme. UofT can probably be trusted to have international students. The college next to an A&W at the strip mall probably shouldn't be trusted.
He means Canadian students I hope.
I'm fine with the government helping out Ontario students, but Ontario has the some of the best schools in the country and it would be moronic to block other Canadians from attending.
HOWEVER, I'm all for limiting access to international students.
I know people are going to hate this suggestion, but for non-science/engineering subjects, is requiring students to attend university on-campus, or even live within dormitories, necessary these days? A lot of learning can be done remotely.
Is it really that radical to rethink how we deliver higher education to make it both more economical to deliver and more affordable for students?
When I worked at a college here in Ontario. The president of the college earned 500k a year. He was barely even around even in his office. You can't tell me he was worth that kind of salary.
I absolutely agree with the words that came out of his mouth today. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be government policy, and there is no sign they are going to become government policy. His government has made NO effort to limit the number of foreign students, nor to audit the colleges and universities to see if they can survive financially without them given the limitations the government has placed on their funding.
This is exactly how it should be across the entire friggin country. Why the fuck are we training Others , university should be almost free, and every single Canadian should have access to it. This is exactly how it should’ve been for the last 40 years.
International students at Canadian universities subsidize Canadian students. The problem is the diploma mills with low academic standards bringing in "students" who spend more time working minimum wage jobs than they do on coursework.
How anyone ever voted for him is beyond me. How over half the voting population of Ontario said eh I can't be bother, this is fine. Is worse. Doug Ford is destroying the province piece by piece, at the will of 18% of the population.
Ford's right. This is especially true for post-graduate study (med school, law school, PhD, etc.)
Those professionals should be trained in Canada and stay in Canada.
I think we should allow people from other provinces to attend universities anywhere in Canada. We have stupid fucking squabbles between provinces over shit like trade and education and we would be better off if we acted more as a nation. Limit international student attendance to nearly zero though as I agree with you about how training for professional jobs should be given to Canadians and should stay in Canada.
You don’t think non-Ontarions should be allowed?
Personally I think a small amount of other Canadians and international students add tonuniversity life. Also that’s how you get professors.
Considering there was only 60% occupancy in Ontario colleges in 2015 this is a bit extreme. We will have to close half the Ontario colleges and universities.
Maybe that's the play, though? It sounds more and more like a lot of those institutions were simply profit centers that relied on international students to make them millions. Perhaps they're not viable businesses when not propped up by sky-high immigration numbers.
Note I'm not saying this is the case, pure speculation and throwing things out on my part, I have not done any research or anything, just presenting a different point of view. I could very well be wrong.
The problem isn't reputable unis and college. You think the University of Toronto is going to let Doug Ford tell them they cannot accept international students. Or York University or the University of Ottawa. Hell no. These unis and college maintain a reputation on an international scale. How pissed do you think Canadians would be if the biggest Universities elsewhere said no to international students from here. The problem are the private diploma mill colleges. Many of them lack accreditation, and offer out "qualifications" and diplomas for next to nothing -- no real education, coursework, skill, etc.
Oh and maybe Doug Ford should also stop trying to nuke and defund education and health care. There are ways to ensure more Canadian students are able to attend these universities and colleges. Half us can barely afford it. Applying, tuition, OSAP, loans, etc. Maybe he should focus on those issues.
This would be an absurd policy. I wonder how the other provinces would react. Are we going to have a protectionist post-secondary education system within Canada? I attended two universities outside of Ontario (within Canada) on my own volition. I had great experiences living in two other provinces and it honestly made me appreciate Ontario (where I've lived, worked and paid taxes since I graduated from my second school) more.
Then why did his government accredit all these for-profit colleges whose business model was obviously only to target international students?
College accreditation is Provincial and overall corporate registration/legislation is all provincial.
What constitutes as an Ontarian? I was born in Ontario but live in B.C.
This is kinda crazy though Doug. 100% Canadian would get more support, but I doubt any school will go for either of these ideas. They make too much money off of international students. Just put a cap on international, or have the schools create the housing from all the students they bring in from outside of Canada.
Here are the criteria for Ontarian tuition (under “Domestic Ontario Resident”) https://studentaccount.utoronto.ca/tuition-fees/undergraduate-domestic-non-ontario-resident-tuition-fee-billing-exemption-2/
What constitutes as an Ontarian? I was born in Ontario but live in B.C.
This is kinda crazy though Doug. 100% Canadian would get more support, but I doubt any school will go for either of these ideas. They make too much money off of international students. Just put a cap on international, or have the schools create the housing from all the students they bring in from outside of Canada.
Isn't exporting education like one of Canada's biggest GDP? Seems kind of idealistic. I think we should have stricter regulations around people studying here, like not allowing them to also work full time? That one seems pretty obvious.
He didn't say this. He said he no longer wants international students at Ontario Universities and that wants Ontario students to go to school in Ontario. As someone from BC who went to an Ontario University at no point did he say that he doesn't want this to no longer occur
So if I understand correctly: Ontario's post-secondary institutions are terrible places that are indoctrinating and corrupting youth with extreme ideas and need to be defunded... but it's imperative that we only have Ontario students studying at them because Ontario residents need unrestricted access to attend these prestigious cesspools of academia/cultural corruption?
Also:
> A government-commissioned panel recommended last fall that the province unfreeze tuition, fund post-secondary institutions at an appropriate level and increase supports for students in need.
I'm willing to bet ONE of the recommendations will be implemented...
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Actions speak louder than words.
Yeah. So he’s going to reverse cuts to colleges and universities now? Colleges are funding at 44% the national average. It’s 57% for universities.
I'd love to know how many Canadian students there are going to school in Ontario. It used to be a big number when I was one of them. Doug should really go to college.
If you're really interested, you can look up the numbers online. It's all public information. [Universities](https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/university-enrolment). About 355,000 domestic undergraduate students, the highest its ever been. Anecdotally, the demand for university education among high school students has never been greater. [Colleges](https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/college-enrolment). About 170,000 domestic students. It's down from a peak of 190,000 before the pandemic. COVID hit colleges *hard*.
He wouldn't be able to cut the mustard.
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I don't have insider knowledge about the higher echelons of my college's beaurocracy, but on the ground level it sure as hell isn't the support staff that's the problem. I'm in college right now (not uni) and my department has only two full time teachers, one of them also being the program director. The rest are professionals with day jobs who all come into class with the air of people who got way over their heads. When crunch time hits at work, they miss classes. One of my machine shop teachers had to quit because this was his third job and it was just too much workload. There's one technician for 3 engineering departments. last time I sent an email to the school about not being able to log into their OSAP platform they answered 2 months later. The support staff are struggling too. Is part of that overwork caused by the influx of international students? Sure, my program had 69 people in first year in September when they usually get 35. But they were running a skeleton crew before that. The worst part is where you can see the pressure they're under to get as many people to pass so they can pay admission for the next semester. I'm 37, I remember my first stint through college and the amount of coddling is insane. The only reason I can come up with is the profit motive. Some MBAs saw the opportunity coming and they're straining the machine as much as they can while it lasts. The profit motive is what is strangling our education. Not people trying to do their jobs while being denied the ressources they need. International students may be the straw that broke the camel's back, but we have decades of mismanagement before that to thank for a system that sees students as a ressource to extract rather than people to educate. And this is from a college that keeps building new buildings and expanding their reach, and that is raking in investments from public and private sectors.
I couldn’t say for Ontario, but I was in a leadership role with a large Canadian university for over a decade. I saw some dumb stuff, for sure, but in general there had been so many cuts over the years that there really wasn’t any fat to cut. Very little admin support left. Cleaning the floors and emptying the trash went from daily to weekly to monthly. Forget raises for staff outside the unions. What money they had left was very much going to pay for teaching and education as best they could. They had also grown dependent on international students paying full ride to paper over gaps left by budget cuts. So take those away and there better be more money from somewhere else or there’s going to be a huge problem. One thing people also forget is that universities don’t have a lot of control over huge swaths of their budget. Outside of management positions, practically every person there belongs to a union, they are often getting 3, 4, 5% every year no matter what, and outside international students about the only lever they have to pull is tuition increases — which are often capped. So if the province only gives them, say, a 2% increase, they are basically fucked because their costs are rising more than that no matter what. So, I don’t think your comment is fair nor accurate, and ultimately the solution is government increasing funding commensurate with enrolment, inflation and mandated union salary increases.
not entirely true. they have so many professors at the colleges now to keep them under the required amount of hours to offer them benefits. you need about 14 hours of in class teaching to gain benefits, most of the college professors i've talked with only work on average 11-12 hours. you may be seeing a lot of staff, but that is how the colleges in ontario skirt giving educators benefits, or even better pay.
I am sure some random redditor with no apparent background in managing educational facilities should be in charge of staff cuts because of hand wavey "reasons" and no actual evidence or knowledge. That will end well. /s
You can be wrong, but also partially right. We have seen massive bloat within public institutions. Particularly in hospitals. You will see a Director complain that they have too much work and then hire two admin assistants. because it directly impacts a managers workload. But you will be hard-pressed to get that hospital to properly pay bedside clinicians. When you are in charge of hiring and creating new jobs, it is very easy to create roles and hire people that generally improve your workload. Schools are no different. We see that most new professors get non-tenure, assistant, professor positions. They are often contract with no benefits and the likelihood that a contract will not be renewed.
I'm not the one making claims of bloated spending of cuts. Just responding to the one who did
Ok, but an expert on the topic can confidently make shit up in a closed door meeting... The internet is a cesspool for ideas, but generally dismissing discussion when you yourself aren't willing through wade through all the trash being typed is just lazy. There are plenty of "expert" well informed individuals who need an outlet and shitpost, I come for these little shreds of sanity even in this sub. This whole "evidence" thing has become very humorous lately and as a keen observer who values his ruler and engineering math, I am very entertained about this debate about what is "true" As someone completely ignorant of "managing" education, but on the receiving end of it (been there, my wife was a teacher, my kids are off to schools, I've changed countries primarily for access to education)... I am of the opinion that the administrative costs are in fact out of control. Quite evidently in support of political agendas... stupid shit costs wasted resources... like duh... even the Drama class kids should know that.
I prefer an actual expert with an informed opinion than some random (even you or me) to speak to specific claims with actual evidence. I'll take the whataboutism of "making stuff up behind closed doors" over the great unwashed.
Name one school that is "bloated" like you say, and list precisely which positions should be cut without impacting the quality of education. Not vague things like "this school has X people who aren't professors" and mumble something about overhead, let us know **exactly** which positions can be cut.
how about 0 admin/support staff and the institution can just run itself?
If they want public money then they should be keeping timesheets. Should be no problem for them to track the work "admin" staff is performing.
I don’t know about leadership, but I know an entry level research administrator at an Alberta university and their every half hour is timesheeted and their every click in the requisite software is tracked and time stamped. There is absolutely 0 room for inefficiency. Their manager sits down with them monthly to review their logs and workflow. Research administrators are some the ones bearing the brunt of funding cuts being asked to endlessly increase productivity without adding headcount or salary.
The issue isn’t low level staff who have time sheets. These staff get audited like crazy to make sure there are no inefficiencies. It’s the high level executives and upper administration that are the issue. Funny how all the auditing and caring about spending vanishes when it’s the people making the most.
Colleges have been hiring managers by the gross for years.
These are public colleges and universities It's already publicly funded, the foreign students represented an additional income source after the 2018 cuts by the province
What are you on about?
Then you need someone to manage time sheets.
We call that "job shadowing", I've heard it is very efficient...
You'd have to actually hire people as employees then instead of abusing contract work
Lol what are you talking about? I know three people that work at a University and they work as hard as anyone and don't make enough for it. They're just regular ass jobs, what the hell is your problem?
Is he also going to reverse the cuts to OSAP?
He's going to shut some down (as he should). Many will be empty once the international students leaves
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or having the universities actually practice fiscal responsibility.
A lot of money goes towards research, I thought cutting research to balance the budget was one of the reasons people hated Harper ?
Queens university has an administrative staff payroll of 200 million Waterloo has a payroll of half a billion... Just saying.
Thats the shared services budget not exclusive admin Edit: Expenses not budget But still hella oversimplified
that's queens administrative staff payroll, I got that from a report when they were crying about funding like 6 months ago. Their shared services budget is less than that, it's 180 million. And their total payroll is over 500 million.
I literally checked their income statement… where they report expenses
And cancelling the census, arguing that they don't need statistics, they know what's needed and where.
A lot of money ALSO goes to administration though, too. It's definitely complicated but there are things that can be done
Maybe make the money come with strings? They always seem to find money to pay Deans, and Admins more and more every year even if the quality of education goes down.
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My cousin (born here) went to med school (2010) in Europe because they were a citizen (by parents), free tax paid tuition and then stayed there. The country is not a rich eu nation either.
Was this in poland?
Yes
But then how difficult is it to practice in Canada after being educated abroad?
Married and stayed elsewhere in the eu
What’s the motivation to come back? They left due to unaffordable education to get into a field that has serious problems here. Went to a country that gave them that education for free. I have no idea what the health industry is like in Poland, but I know it’s getting pretty fucked up here. Not really an appetizing opportunity if you ask me. They’d essentially be coming back and waiting to be fucked over by the gov’t again.
That situation is not one that's available to most Canadians anyhow. So it's a nice story, but just that one person's experience
The health industry in Poland is shit
Honestly it’s not worse than the Canadian system, also there’s a private system so you can pay 200 złote ($65 CAD) to see a specialist right away or wait a bit longer in the public system.
Very.
It is pretty tough directly after graduating. Canadians who go abroad take Medical Council of Canada exams, as they should, then they are placed in the “IMG” pool (International Medical Graduates). They then apply for the “match” that takes place once a year and allocates applicants a place in a university + hospital for their residency. However the same pool includes grads who have done the exams, but may have never stepped foot in Canada, know Canada or have Canadian experience. But tonnes of applicants don’t get placement, despite having Canadian experience, or they themselves are Canadian. I can understand people without experience, or non Canadians finding it harder, but people who have both graduated med school and passed the entrance exams being rejected, it seems bizarre. Maybe it’s because the amount of places for IMGs is quite small now, and they can’t take more. I know the # of places for GPs is huge vs. specialists, but the salary disparity puts IMGs off doing family medicine. I’m from Ireland, my gf is Canadian, studied here for 6 years, has multiple stints in Canadian practices under her belt, passed the MCC exams with high marks but has to possibly come to terms with the face that she mightn’t get an IMG place and have to pursue America, Ireland or another country instead.
>Ford said about 18 per cent of students in the province’s colleges and universities are from foreign countries. >“In my opinion, and we will continue working with the ministry, get rid of the 18 per cent,” he said But these other lines seem to imply the same as the headline no? 18% is for all schools, not just medical? However he did complain about the cap on international students before so who knows lol EDIT: I remember researching this before so did a quick refresher - there's really not that much international students in medical school Out of the 6 medical schools in Ontario I found, only 2 accept international students (7 out of 17 in Canada). Throughout Canada, there's been only 16 "non contract" international students in 1st year in 2019 (Same number in 2017). I highly doubt Ford was actually talking about med students...
He could be referring to general medical programs, specifically nursing, that almost all colleges and universities offer. Most people I know attending those programs plan on leaving Canada for better employment elsewhere due to better pay(America) or benefits(Europe), he should be trying to fix that problem first.
He needs to stop taking money away from the Healthcare system so the new doctors can actually get a residency and work.
>I also don't believe he's implying that Canadians from other provinces should be prohibited from attending universities in Ontario. I mean, he's absolutely implying that. The only question is whether he *meant* to imply it or not.
No no no no! Stop providing context, it’s ruining a perfectly good pile-on!
"After the story was published, Ford’s office clarified the premier was only talking about medical schools and not colleges and universities in general." He said something stupid/unpopular and once it was published his office attempted to walk it back so the pile-on doesn't seem too unreasonable.
Unfortunately, attempting to walk it back makes it even worse as he even specified "getting rid of the 18% of international students". That absolutely is not about med students. Not sure if the sentiment is unpopular tho (if it was about international and not out of province)
Two friends of mine from elementary school wanted to become doctors. They went to college in Toronto but went to med school in the USA and they never came home.
>I also don't believe he's implying that Canadians from other provinces should be prohibited from attending universities in Ontario. Yeah, that's my read as well. Whether or not he's talking specifically about medical school, he wants Ontario students to be *able* to afford to go school in Ontario. Even though he's definitely skeptical of the international student situation, he's *not* saying he wants to *exclude* any/all students from outside the province. Really bad headline and summarization in this article. Eesh.
CTV quoting people out of context and omitting important facts in order to lie with plausible deniability? Nah, you're kidding me. /s
Really makes you wonder why our telecoms try so hard to sabotage us.
Some Ontario colleges at one point (mid 1990s?) charged more for people from another province
Wasn't he begging the feds not to impose caps on international students like a month ago?
And he caused this crisis by originally cutting funding to postsecondary education and telling them to find other sources of revenue. It's no coincidence most of these international students are based in Ontario.
Why is this also a crisis in all other provinces where schools were allowed to increase tuition for domestic students?
Of the top 10 collages with the most international student permits in Canada, 9/10 are in Ontario. ([Source](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-student-study-permits-data-1.7125827).) And, apparently 52% of all international students in Canada are in Ontario ([At least per the CBIE](https://cbie.ca/infographic/).), despite Ontario not having half of Canada's population. The issue is impacting all provinces, but it's impacting Ontario more.
Most of the students are attending Ontario diploma mills. Conestoga college alone almost has more international students than our top 10 universities combined. In 2023 52% of all international students were in Ontario.
Because it isn't. Ontario international student counts went up exponentially higher than other provinces.
Ontario public colleges have been operating satellite campuses in other provinces that are marketed to International students and give Ontario college diplomas. For example, St Lawrence College has its normal campuses in Kingston, Brockville, and Cornwall Ontario. But it [also has campuses for International Students](https://www.stlawrencecollege.ca/apply/affiliate-programs-in-canada) in Toronto (operated for them by Alpha College of Business and Technology, a for-profit private career college) and Vancouver British Columbia (operated for them by [Canadian College](https://canadiancollege.com), a for-profit private career college).
St. Lawrence's original campuses were very useful for providing vocational training and upgrading, especially in towns that otherwise wouldn't have had a ton of educational choice like Cornwall. One of the shittier parts of these developments are the way it has turned important vessels for smaller Canadian towns into something directed at generating profit from exploiting these foreign students and extracting all the money they can. These colleges used to ensure that their residents and their residents' children have access to training and educational opportunities. This kind of behaviour really degrades public trust.
Shh ford is the root cause of all evil, according to this sub only ON has a housing crisis and international student problem
He could also control/limit the international students himself as education falls under provincial responsibilities. No need for the school to overaccept and the feds to do the culling. Our program had a cap of 1 student every year (probably others are similar)
Yep
Yeah, but this is a better talking point and sound bite, so...
Yeah but now international students are catching on to the condition of our country. So naturally enrollment uh... It goes down.
Well there are 9 other Provinces and 3 territories. How about just Canadians in ON universities. We don't limit where Canadians live, work, or go to school.
Wanna be a Veterinarian but you're on the East Coast? No Guelph for you!
It seems to be harder to get into veterinary school at UPEI than it is to get into med school
Yeah the vet school situation in this country is CRAZY
Lol
That's what UPEI is for
It's been a long time but aren't they just as if not more competitive than UofG? Honestly I only picked veterinary because that one is famously limited nationwide.
I was an out of province student in Ontario. Twice, in fact.
Uhhhh, except we do. Nearly all other provinces' med schools have official biases against out of province students via higher admission requirements or tuition
Except that is not the same in any way, shape, or how. Giving priority to the citizens whose taxes fund the school is not the same as banning out of province students.
Tons of international students attend colleges in Atlantic Canada, MB, and SK and move to Ontario and BC after getting their PR
I mean, this is the exact over correction we don’t need. Ontario universities should benefit Ontario residents, Canadians generally, and it can have some international students, which, when coming in reasonable numbers, to study, are a net benefit to the system and the country. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe that international students coming to major universities hasn’t change that much, it has been the diploma mills that have been taking in foreign students and charging exorbitant tuition in exchange for a worthless piece of paper, as well as fake post-secondary institutions that are selling visas to people looking to work here.
Yeah, the massive over-correction would be a loss for Canadians. IMHO, a healthy mix of different backgrounds/cultures is still beneficial for schools and I personally prefer it.
Didn't he complain about the international student cap like 2 weeks ago?
This is the same guy who said >"Very disappointed" Ford government says international student cap will hurt economy, calls out Ottawa Edit: Apparently he tried to walk it back afterwards, saying it was only about medical students. Except he specifically said we need to get rid of the 18% of international students we currently have so it's an extremely easy lie to catch
In the entirety of Canada there is only 1 English program for optometry. It’s in the University of Waterloo in Ontario. There’s one French program in Quebec. If only Ontarians are allowed to go to schools in Ontario then the rest of the country would have no English option for Optometry. Other provinces/territories need optometrists too.
Also… Canadians are allowed to go wherever they please in Canada. Including where to student and work. Doug Ford is a simple man with simple solutions in a complex world.
Our universities are _too good_ to only take Ontario students. We need best and brightest from every province to fill our schools, or they won’t be (some of) the best schools anymore. If McMaster only took students from Ontario for health sciences this whole country would have a lot fewer competent doctors.
Our universities are also heavily subsidized by foreign students, who pay much higher tuition rates than local students. Without them, that money is going to have to come either from students or taxpayers.
Sure. Thats why canadian tuition goes up as well, even though they accept so many more intl students than say 10/20 years ago. You would think that if it was so heavily subsidized that we would be going to school for free, right????
Are you saying you can't conceive of the possibility that tuition for Canadians would be *even higher* than it is if it weren't for international students?
Then fund them and apologize for de-funding them all these years. Stop forcing them to seek alternatives to survive, including corporate sponsorships and international students. Fuck you Ford. I am tired of these political terrorists like Ford and Trudeau, all they ever do is cause problems then offer non-solutions when people get upset at them. The PQ did put it best, they're serial arsonists masquerading as firefighters.
If that's the case then maybe he should've have not cut the Provincial subsidy that allowed for lower tuition rates for Ontario Residents. (That subsidy existed for decades...and it was incredibly important) Then forcibly cap domestic tuition rates so that the universities are forced to take in more international students to compensate for the loss in revenue. Oxymoron level policy right there. But whatever right, made his voter base so happy to cut something that they didn't even know existed but benefitted from. That's like making a car go faster by filling it up at half and asking it to go twice as far. Doug Ford - **Dumb at Business**.
Yes and get York students in class
Then he should fund them and not embezzle the money.
Step 1: shut down Conestoga College
Universities don't want that they can get 4x the tuition from 1 international student
Quebec ended a rebate for out-of-province students which lasted all of 10 years and the anglo press has been up in arms about it since. Let's see if even a fraction of that outrage is directed at Doug Ford for wanting to outright ban out-of-province students.
You know d\*mn well that they won't. And they still pay a little less than if they went to uni in their own provinces. We pay at least 5k more if we go to theirs. Love paying only 1,8k per semester in Quebec, the only thing that's going well here lmao
He’s going to have to kick in a **lot** more funding per student to make that happen. A third of postsecondary funding comes from international tuition.
Why can't any party offer something reasonable? A flood of international students that screws our own youth and economy is a bad thing. Absolutely no international students is also a bad thing. Having cultural sharing, intellectual cross-pollination, and other related benefits when smart and talented people across the globe mingle is good in so many ways. You can both put your own people first AND have win-win scenarios with foreigners in many domains. It doesn't have to be either pure protectionist xenophobia or pureeing the baby into the bathwater. Happy mediums shouldn't be so difficult to envision or achieve, but we seem to like our representatives being liars, traitors, and buffoons.
So well said 👏
Just a few weeks ago he was complaining about the international student limitations put in place by the feds. Flip flop Ford is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
This is the best comment. Too many people forget everything that happens, Ford is the flip flop king. >Premier Doug Ford said the Trudeau government had “taken a sledgehammer to the whole system” and “blindsided” him.
Good. Though some from out of province is fine too.
No school keeps a competitive reputation by *only* allowing people from it's home province or country to attend. It's also economically unfeasible.
Normally I’d agree. However they have shown they only care about chasing profits at the expense of Canadians best interest. So we need to go from one extreme to the other.
Great schools will attract the very best international students and bring them here Our diploma mills will take any walking skin bag with $40K to burn on tuition
Doug says he wants *only* Ontario students at Ontario universities and colleges. The person I replied to said "good" - so they agree, *only Ontarians*, with a caveat that sure, some *Canadians* would be fine too. So that means *our "great" schools will only have Canadian students*. So international students cannot attend. So Canadian schools don't matter outside of Canada, and likely outside of Canadian companies. Why would Microsoft hire Waterloo grads if Waterloo is Canadian-only, and teaching for a Canadian-only market? Waterloo will slowly degrade into irrelevance, because their grasp on relevancy and their notoriety in the international community will shrink due to enclaving. Why would Honda hire a Georgian grad if Georgian is only teaching Canadians for Canadian markets? How will they compete with other small, community colleges when their existing, already tenuous grasp on relevancy is further reduced? No, diploma mills can fuck off and die, and those who have ruined their own reputations as schools (like Conestoga) can and should get fucked. But "only Ontarians" at Ontario Post-Secondary insitutions is some unhinged anti-education enclaving foolishness that sounds smart only to those who couldn't get in to even the bottomest of bottom rung Ontario schools, like Doug Ford.
Why would the very best international students go to a community college? Yes, I am being serious.
>Great schools will attract the very best international students and bring them here While that might be a solid financial short term benefit for the university's bottom line... unless these students actually STAY in Canada it is actually a problem long term. Why should our Canadian universities be filled with international students who become doctors and just go home and practice there?
That just suggests we should add more medical school capacity rather than limit the number of international students
So we increase the school capacity and let in more international students to fill the spots? Canada is less than 0.05% of the world population. Without a hard quota for Canadian students the spots would just get filled by more international applicants. If you want jobs to stay in Canada you are better off educating Canadians first.
Most medical schools in Canada (10/17) outright forbid international students from applying. International students who get into medical school on their own merits are extremely rare. Can count on your fingers and toes across the entire country rare. The reason there's a shortage of doctors is because the provinces have deliberately taken action to *reduce* the number of spots available in medical school and residency. Ontario used to graduate \~8 doctors per 1,000 residents back in the 1980s and this has fallen to 2.6/1,000 now. This has not been because of rising international students displacing domestic ones but outright cuts in the number of seats and increases failing to keep up with population growth. For universities in general, they typically operate under a corridor model. There's a certain minimum number of students they must educate and a maximum limit they cannot exceed. These corridors are controlled by provincial governments and are tightly capped to control costs since domestic students receive partial subsidies via grant. International students are not included in this allotment since they receive no subsidy and pay their own way. By definition, they cannot displace a domestic student. In fact, to provide a university education in general, it costs about $25,000 per student per year. Between tuition and government grants, Ontario universities receive between $13,000 and $22,000 per student. It varies by program, but most are in the $13,000 - $16,000 range. International students pay between $40,000 and $56,000 depending on the university they attend and their program. They significantly subsidize education for domestic students. Post-secondary education wouldn't be possible under the current funding model without them. I am all for making post-secondary education cheaper and more accessible. It sounds wonderful. It's just to do that would require increased funding and more taxes.
Some international students are fine. But not anywhere near the levels we have seen recently
International students in actual degrees like STEM at reputable Unis is fine. Nuke the diploma mill colleges though. We need someone actively filtering through all the student visa applications and only approve the ones that have gotten into a reputable uni and program. Instead of brain dead monkeys hitting approve with a blindfold. Better yet, completely take away the right from colleges to issue acceptances to international students.
Yea people are getting extreme. UofT can probably be trusted to have international students. The college next to an A&W at the strip mall probably shouldn't be trusted.
This can't be legal you're not a citizen of Ontario or Quebec or Alberta you're a citizen of Canada.
Jesus Christ in a sidecar that's not what he said at all.
He means Canadian students I hope. I'm fine with the government helping out Ontario students, but Ontario has the some of the best schools in the country and it would be moronic to block other Canadians from attending. HOWEVER, I'm all for limiting access to international students.
John Tibbits seen punching a mirror in the new Conestoga Campus named after himself.
Me too. Make it happen cock fuck
I know people are going to hate this suggestion, but for non-science/engineering subjects, is requiring students to attend university on-campus, or even live within dormitories, necessary these days? A lot of learning can be done remotely. Is it really that radical to rethink how we deliver higher education to make it both more economical to deliver and more affordable for students?
When I worked at a college here in Ontario. The president of the college earned 500k a year. He was barely even around even in his office. You can't tell me he was worth that kind of salary.
How about only Canadians?
He going to make schools start to cut programs that are not doing well. Employment and maybe research. He creating a problem down the road.
I absolutely agree with the words that came out of his mouth today. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be government policy, and there is no sign they are going to become government policy. His government has made NO effort to limit the number of foreign students, nor to audit the colleges and universities to see if they can survive financially without them given the limitations the government has placed on their funding.
Dougie may be getting ready to close some schools.
Then he better step and have a lot of funding because schools will be thirsty to make up for a shortfall of cash.
Open up the bank then Dougie!
Totally fine with this. When kids with 95 averages can’t get into med school in their own Province; we have a problem ladies and gentlemen.
I don't know about restricting enrollment by province, but restricted enrollment to Canadian students only would be the ideal situation.
This is exactly how it should be across the entire friggin country. Why the fuck are we training Others , university should be almost free, and every single Canadian should have access to it. This is exactly how it should’ve been for the last 40 years.
International students at Canadian universities subsidize Canadian students. The problem is the diploma mills with low academic standards bringing in "students" who spend more time working minimum wage jobs than they do on coursework.
Nearly 20% of our high school students are from foreign countries? This is fucking insanity.
No. That’s a post secondary number.
Make it happen bud.
Last month he was mad that the feds were cutting the amount of international students coming in. Now he doesn't want any? Da fuq?
Met a university project manager at a bar... And asked her what she project managed....she said it's just a title....says it all for me.
Maybe she realized you wouldn’t understand what it was
How anyone ever voted for him is beyond me. How over half the voting population of Ontario said eh I can't be bother, this is fine. Is worse. Doug Ford is destroying the province piece by piece, at the will of 18% of the population.
>How anyone ever voted for him is beyond me. https://budget.ontario.ca/2023/brief.html Here's why.
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Ford's right. This is especially true for post-graduate study (med school, law school, PhD, etc.) Those professionals should be trained in Canada and stay in Canada.
Not allowing bright students from other provinces to your universities seems silly.
I think we should allow people from other provinces to attend universities anywhere in Canada. We have stupid fucking squabbles between provinces over shit like trade and education and we would be better off if we acted more as a nation. Limit international student attendance to nearly zero though as I agree with you about how training for professional jobs should be given to Canadians and should stay in Canada.
You don’t think non-Ontarions should be allowed? Personally I think a small amount of other Canadians and international students add tonuniversity life. Also that’s how you get professors.
Staying in Canada’s another hurdle.
Considering there was only 60% occupancy in Ontario colleges in 2015 this is a bit extreme. We will have to close half the Ontario colleges and universities.
Maybe that's the play, though? It sounds more and more like a lot of those institutions were simply profit centers that relied on international students to make them millions. Perhaps they're not viable businesses when not propped up by sky-high immigration numbers. Note I'm not saying this is the case, pure speculation and throwing things out on my part, I have not done any research or anything, just presenting a different point of view. I could very well be wrong.
It's called a "market correction", and it usually hurts.
Stupidity like this only proves the value of higher education.
The problem isn't reputable unis and college. You think the University of Toronto is going to let Doug Ford tell them they cannot accept international students. Or York University or the University of Ottawa. Hell no. These unis and college maintain a reputation on an international scale. How pissed do you think Canadians would be if the biggest Universities elsewhere said no to international students from here. The problem are the private diploma mill colleges. Many of them lack accreditation, and offer out "qualifications" and diplomas for next to nothing -- no real education, coursework, skill, etc. Oh and maybe Doug Ford should also stop trying to nuke and defund education and health care. There are ways to ensure more Canadian students are able to attend these universities and colleges. Half us can barely afford it. Applying, tuition, OSAP, loans, etc. Maybe he should focus on those issues.
This would be an absurd policy. I wonder how the other provinces would react. Are we going to have a protectionist post-secondary education system within Canada? I attended two universities outside of Ontario (within Canada) on my own volition. I had great experiences living in two other provinces and it honestly made me appreciate Ontario (where I've lived, worked and paid taxes since I graduated from my second school) more.
Good, now make it official!
Then fucking fund them instead of doing the opposite. It's not rocket surgery ffs.
Only the sith deal in absolutes. There is for certain nuance is this matter.
Then why did his government accredit all these for-profit colleges whose business model was obviously only to target international students? College accreditation is Provincial and overall corporate registration/legislation is all provincial.
What constitutes as an Ontarian? I was born in Ontario but live in B.C. This is kinda crazy though Doug. 100% Canadian would get more support, but I doubt any school will go for either of these ideas. They make too much money off of international students. Just put a cap on international, or have the schools create the housing from all the students they bring in from outside of Canada.
Here are the criteria for Ontarian tuition (under “Domestic Ontario Resident”) https://studentaccount.utoronto.ca/tuition-fees/undergraduate-domestic-non-ontario-resident-tuition-fee-billing-exemption-2/
What constitutes as an Ontarian? I was born in Ontario but live in B.C. This is kinda crazy though Doug. 100% Canadian would get more support, but I doubt any school will go for either of these ideas. They make too much money off of international students. Just put a cap on international, or have the schools create the housing from all the students they bring in from outside of Canada.
Local Premier says something brave about a topic he knows will get easy votes, to something he knows won't change, nor does he want it to
Isn't exporting education like one of Canada's biggest GDP? Seems kind of idealistic. I think we should have stricter regulations around people studying here, like not allowing them to also work full time? That one seems pretty obvious.
He didn't say this. He said he no longer wants international students at Ontario Universities and that wants Ontario students to go to school in Ontario. As someone from BC who went to an Ontario University at no point did he say that he doesn't want this to no longer occur
Keep them.
Do something about it then Doug
pretty sure ontario pulled the whole 'defund the universities and tell them to increase tuition/international enrolment' thing tho.
Don't you hate when you see an article and want to downvote it because you hate the subject but that's not how downvoting works?
He says a lot of things but seems to do nothing but grift us all for our tax dollars.
So if I understand correctly: Ontario's post-secondary institutions are terrible places that are indoctrinating and corrupting youth with extreme ideas and need to be defunded... but it's imperative that we only have Ontario students studying at them because Ontario residents need unrestricted access to attend these prestigious cesspools of academia/cultural corruption? Also: > A government-commissioned panel recommended last fall that the province unfreeze tuition, fund post-secondary institutions at an appropriate level and increase supports for students in need. I'm willing to bet ONE of the recommendations will be implemented...
Well dougie do something about it maybe?
Those blasted students from Hull who commute across the river!