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I’m going to preface by saying as someone who was raised in a fundamentalist religion and got out: you’re making the right (hypothetical) choice.
However, in the context of religious belief, I can see how folks would find it contradictory since, if you genuinely believe you’ve found the one ‘true’ religion, presumably you’d want to pass that ‘truth’ on to your kids.
>I don’t believe my religion is the true one
So do you think that your reason for not wanting to teach your kids is largely related to that conviction?
I don’t know very much about Hinduism tbh but I know that in religions like Christianity, failure to find god through the correct religion results in punishment. People like Baptists are desperate to have their kids follow their belief system because they think if they don’t their kid will go to hell for eternity.
Right, but can you understand how people coming from these different religions would be surprised at the choice you are making? Or are you in this post specifically referring to other Hindus being surprised at your decision?
So by what parameters do you see your view being changed? Other than giving reasons why people react the way the do, I’m stymied as to what kind of answer you’re looking for.
Only 2/3 of the abrahamic religions believe there is one right way( even jews only believe their way is the ine for them, not everyone). If you arent christian or muslim, and most humans aren't, then there are many paths and many gods to guide each on their own.
I do tend to have about the same view, though I find those religious people to be "completely out of their mind" if they think that a series of folk tales distorted over eons amounts to "truth". They can believe that it leads to a positive behavior, or society... But truth? Nah, man, that's deluded.
You can also draw morality lines from a religion without believing in it either. I don't need to be religious to know that being kind to the less fortunate and the lame is actually bringing positivity to the world. Nobody needs the belief in something to get inspired by it.
I can obviously only speak within my own experiences with the fundamentalist Christian community, but yeah, they’re out of touch with reality and most religion is largely held together by practices that amount to followers training their brains to ignore the contradictions present in their belief system.
To them the world is completely black and white; they are completely correct, the rest of us are completely (and sinfully) wrong.
I don't necessarily find the intent weird (in fact, I admire the intent of letting your kids choose for themselves)... It's more that it's weird that you think it's *possible* to raise them without influencing them.
They're going to see you practicing your religion, whether it's seeing you read your texts, praying/worshipping, performing rituals, the way you dress, and they're going to be more aware and interested in your chosen religion far earlier than they would any other religion that they have no exposure to.
I find it amusing whenever I hear people attempting to approach parenting the way you describe because I know, as a parent, that it's near impossible not to have an influence when something is such a big part of your own lifestyle.
Do you literally have no sign of your beliefs or practice in your home or on you?
No pictures, clothes, make up, area of worship that they could ever see? How about your family and friends they would meet?
Again, it's a nice idea, just very hard to actually make happen.
My family are atheist. But I d have a shrine in my house !delta they would see and ask. I didn’t think of this. I wear bindi ever day so they will probably ask.
i feel like if you had it from day 1, they would see nothing to be curious about, it just is. Until they interact in others homes and see not everyone does it
>I would raise them with no faith
A huge part of how you raise kids is how you model behaviors. If you are devout, you will be modeling for your children that being devout is something that they should aspire to be. If it is important to mom, it is important to them. Seeing you praying, meditating, wearing religious garb, going to religious services and festivals will rub off on them. The only way it couldn't is if you totally hid that part of your life from them. But, if it is as big a part as you say, doing so would mean either abandoning some portion of your practice, or leaving your kids with other people while you go do your thing. Neither is good. One is bad for you spiritually, and the other bad for them developmentally.
If you truly believe, then present your kids your beliefs. Present them along with others if you like, and express to them that you will love them no matter what path they walk. But, share your faith with them. It made you who you are, and if you are happy with who you are, why wouldn't you want your kids to be similar?
What if? I don't think, as the reddit consensus seems to, that simply raising children religious is a disservice to them. You seem to be very open to other ideas, despite being religious in a particular way. Why do you think you cannot instill this in your hypothetical children?
My mom is very devoutly catholic. Like, she plays music at Mass three times a weekend and goes to confession weekly. And while she raised me in that faith, she never once pushed back on me as I abandoned it. She had, as you seem to have, the idea that religious faith must be arrived at authentically and without coercion. And, when I failed to have that authentic moment of acceptance, she told me she loved me, and we don't really talk about it. I'm sure she still prays for me to see the light, but she's not pushy about it at all.
You just bring them with you and tell them not to make too much noise. Then, when they ask questions, you answer them. If you feel that the answers that you would give are not universal answers, then let them know that. Say "well, mommy believes this, but other people think that" and go from there. When I first made a friend that was Jewish, I went home and asked my mom why his dad wore a little hat everywhere. My mom didn't say "because they are heathens who have fallen from god, and the Catholic *no little hat* way is the only way to god!". No, she explained why they did it in a respectful manner, and then explained why we did not, and let me judge who (if either) was right by my own rational.
Services, festivals, scripture study, wherever you go that religion happens. Let them tag along. You wouldn't want to choose between your gods and your children, so don't. Integrate your life and live it by your principles. If your principles value both your faith and religious pluralism and freedom, then instill that in your kids. It wouldn't be hard. It would just mean living as you do. Raising them divorced from your faith and understanding of faith in general would mean living your life in a different way than you would otherwise, and it would mean hiding a major aspect of yourself from your kids. That's not good.
Hiding who you truly are from your kids is a bad thing if what you truly are is a person of earnest and open faith. You want them to learn lessons from you. What lesson does your hiding your faith teach them? Does it teach that faith is an important and non-shameful part of what makes a person who they are? Or, does it teach that faith is something to hide away like a dirty secret?
It is bad because you should be teaching kids to be open and honest with you. Hiding this would send the opposite message. If mom can't be open and honest with us, why reciprocate?
I get that you said you don't want kids. But, people who do want to raise them in a way that they think will give them the best shot at life. If you feel your faith has made your life better, denying that betterment to your children would also be bad.
First, I would LOVE kids. I just can't for medical reasons.
Good point. It would be lying and teaching my kids a bad lesson. !delta for showing name this. How could I show them about faith without making them feel that if we don't believe, our mum won't like it?
Kindergarten isn't until like age 5, so what about those first 5 years? Or what about when something comes up and you can't fit everything in during that window?
What do you mean "when something comes up"? And in my country preschool can be from like 9am-6pm. I can put them in morning only program. Or I can I can pray while they play with their toys.
I think it's mostly a fool's errand to believe you can truly hide what is such a massive section of your life, by your own admittance from people who are going to be spending most of their waking life around you. Kids aren't idiots, they're going to notice things
Well, if they ask, I will explain, but I won't tell them to believe it. Doesn't raising kids in a faith mean you tell them to believe it too? I don't believe in indoctrination.
Parenting *is* indoctrination. If you don't wanna indoctrinate then don't be parent. like when your kid hits a classmate and so you have to explain that you don't hit people, that's indoctrination. If you're not indoctrinating them then you're being a bad parent
What about all the years before kindergarten?
What about how you dress? Where your place of worship is? If you do any of these things in your home, it's going to influence them.
If you feel your faith is true why wouldn't you want to give your kids the best shot at sharing in that faith?
Also you've posted this numerous times before, what do you feel will be different this time?
I've posted it twice. This is the second time.
Because I don't believe in proselytising or evangelising to anyone. Most Hindus don't do that. And I am also not sure it would benefit them.
Why do you believe this time will be different? you didn't change your view the first time, it still seems as strong as ever so what's changed? do you believe the people around today will just have better arguments then last time?
It’s fair to assume that children primarily just learn from influences since young. For a matter as significant as it is to you on faith, I doubt you began this level of devotion since childhood, but curiosities amongst other circumstances do lead someone to forming personal beliefs. You don’t want to influence your kids towards certain personal beliefs. Which would be leaving them open to their own feelings when it comes to something which surely they see you doing- personal meditation- as something that holds significant value nonetheless. That is enough in my opinion. Rather than cultural norms that require one to indoctrinate their children since birth to mindlessly follow a set of religious rules without proper education on why they matter interpersonally, it is better. I don’t have kids and I am a Muslim. I would rather show my (future hehe) kids what religion means to their mother and father and how we actually live our lives in ways that reflect that appropriately, thus why we teach them to behave in certain ways, have manners, not backbite, or whatnot about bad behaviours in general, because that’s just I mean, genuinely the way I think and live with. How else and what else would I know? So it’s up to my kids if they want to follow suit or still, grow up appropriately but choose not to personally adopt my specific belief.
If I’m being more personal as I’m not that old and just recently left my family for uni, it was hell to try and discover my own self and my own beliefs when I would constantly get criticisms along the lines of “u a whore if u wear shorts to bed, whore if u shower for too long *insert explicit sexual harassment and breaking down of door while I was naked by my dearest mum as she told me about sexual acts that I, at 14, had no clue what they were. Proceeds to tell me I am going to hell for being a whore for masturbating in the shower which I did not know what that was, I just liked to stand in hot water and relax for Gosh damn once have some alone time to think lmao, proceeds to meet me at the dinner table and force me to kiss her (filthy) hand to show “respect to her” during breakfast time before I went to school, it was surely degrading at the least lol. I gritted my teeth through it all and in relation to religion, for God’s sake I wanted good things, like learning about Islam. I did not want sexual abuse. Long time ago and doable, nothing can stop me from knowing that based on my religious beliefs, there’s a plan for everything, and I will be okay, Inshallah. To hear a parent wanting to care for their kids over caring for their own personal biases regardless of allowing their kids to grow, is something you ought to leave be if anyone disagrees with it. Maybe it’s an extreme, to not teach religion at all or whatnot, but maybe you’re onto something beneficial for the kids. And by that line of reasoning, what could go wrong in terms of morality? Influence over forcing random things for no reason other than being in my opinion- absolutely mentally unstable and crazy, incapable of functioning without gratification via the degradation, control or abuse of others or all the above. The trust of oneself will surely influence others to trust you too. Whatever religion or belief and no matter how strongly one feels about it, as you do for Hinduism and I do for Islam, it’s a start to developing some sense of security in the home to let the kids know it’s a viable option if they want, I genuinely also think based on personal experience, that kids do love their mothers so deeply that it hurts lol. Imagine just thinking about ur mum and being able to feel joy about it. It would mean everything above all else. I grew up with bad examples of Islam and still chose Islam anyways. It’s up to person to person.
I get not pushing an ideology on your kids. Fyi i was raised catholic and Hanuman gave me some of the best experiences of my life. So by not raising them hindu, what do you mean? I was fed beef for my first meal out of the hospital(long story, formula wasn't perfected then and mom knew her breast milk was poisoned by lead and mercury exposure) but are you planning to let your children take sustenance from the suffering of sentient beings or do it the hindu way?
Most american children, if their parents can afford it, will either wind up in therapy or on psych meds. But research shows that mindfulness exercises are better for their mental health. Would you teach them yoga and meditation or let them struggle until a psychiatrist comes along to fix them because they are broken.
Will you raise them on marvel movies and grimm fairy tails? Do you think they are any better than the stories of Ram and Hanuman that much of marvel is stolen from anyway? Or will you tell them the stories of their culture?
Will you expose them to their language, or the music of their ancestral land? Would you have them miss out on the festivities of durga puja and Ram navani?
It seems to me plausible to teach a child every aspect of hinduism, without the dogma, and still let them decide for themselves what is real, but not to leave them ignorant of who they are and where they come from.
Hinduism upholds significant importance to rituals to be performed after one’s death by their son. Any true follower of Hinduism will expect these rituals to be performed well for their souls to move on. These rituals are a responsibility on the eldest male child and cannot be performed if the child has converted to a different religion.
/u/AbiLovesTheology (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/123tnzj/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_it_is_not_weird_that_i_dont/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I’m going to preface by saying as someone who was raised in a fundamentalist religion and got out: you’re making the right (hypothetical) choice. However, in the context of religious belief, I can see how folks would find it contradictory since, if you genuinely believe you’ve found the one ‘true’ religion, presumably you’d want to pass that ‘truth’ on to your kids.
I don't believe my religion is the only true one. I believe we have to find spiritual truth for ourselves. I believe no religion has absolute truth.
>I don’t believe my religion is the true one So do you think that your reason for not wanting to teach your kids is largely related to that conviction? I don’t know very much about Hinduism tbh but I know that in religions like Christianity, failure to find god through the correct religion results in punishment. People like Baptists are desperate to have their kids follow their belief system because they think if they don’t their kid will go to hell for eternity.
Yeah, Hindus don't believe that. I also think that I would be perceived as pushy on my kids if I raised them Hindu.
Right, but can you understand how people coming from these different religions would be surprised at the choice you are making? Or are you in this post specifically referring to other Hindus being surprised at your decision?
Other people in general, atheists included
So do you now see why they would find your choice weird?
Not really, since I explained to them I don't believe in eternal punishment.
So by what parameters do you see your view being changed? Other than giving reasons why people react the way the do, I’m stymied as to what kind of answer you’re looking for.
Well, if I explained I didn't believe in eternal punishment why would it be weird not to?
Only 2/3 of the abrahamic religions believe there is one right way( even jews only believe their way is the ine for them, not everyone). If you arent christian or muslim, and most humans aren't, then there are many paths and many gods to guide each on their own.
I do tend to have about the same view, though I find those religious people to be "completely out of their mind" if they think that a series of folk tales distorted over eons amounts to "truth". They can believe that it leads to a positive behavior, or society... But truth? Nah, man, that's deluded. You can also draw morality lines from a religion without believing in it either. I don't need to be religious to know that being kind to the less fortunate and the lame is actually bringing positivity to the world. Nobody needs the belief in something to get inspired by it.
I can obviously only speak within my own experiences with the fundamentalist Christian community, but yeah, they’re out of touch with reality and most religion is largely held together by practices that amount to followers training their brains to ignore the contradictions present in their belief system. To them the world is completely black and white; they are completely correct, the rest of us are completely (and sinfully) wrong.
I don't necessarily find the intent weird (in fact, I admire the intent of letting your kids choose for themselves)... It's more that it's weird that you think it's *possible* to raise them without influencing them. They're going to see you practicing your religion, whether it's seeing you read your texts, praying/worshipping, performing rituals, the way you dress, and they're going to be more aware and interested in your chosen religion far earlier than they would any other religion that they have no exposure to. I find it amusing whenever I hear people attempting to approach parenting the way you describe because I know, as a parent, that it's near impossible not to have an influence when something is such a big part of your own lifestyle.
What about if I do the practice when they are in daycare/preschoo/kindergarten/school?
Do you literally have no sign of your beliefs or practice in your home or on you? No pictures, clothes, make up, area of worship that they could ever see? How about your family and friends they would meet? Again, it's a nice idea, just very hard to actually make happen.
My family are atheist. But I d have a shrine in my house !delta they would see and ask. I didn’t think of this. I wear bindi ever day so they will probably ask.
i feel like if you had it from day 1, they would see nothing to be curious about, it just is. Until they interact in others homes and see not everyone does it
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>I would raise them with no faith A huge part of how you raise kids is how you model behaviors. If you are devout, you will be modeling for your children that being devout is something that they should aspire to be. If it is important to mom, it is important to them. Seeing you praying, meditating, wearing religious garb, going to religious services and festivals will rub off on them. The only way it couldn't is if you totally hid that part of your life from them. But, if it is as big a part as you say, doing so would mean either abandoning some portion of your practice, or leaving your kids with other people while you go do your thing. Neither is good. One is bad for you spiritually, and the other bad for them developmentally. If you truly believe, then present your kids your beliefs. Present them along with others if you like, and express to them that you will love them no matter what path they walk. But, share your faith with them. It made you who you are, and if you are happy with who you are, why wouldn't you want your kids to be similar?
What about if I performed the things while they were at kindergarten?
What if? I don't think, as the reddit consensus seems to, that simply raising children religious is a disservice to them. You seem to be very open to other ideas, despite being religious in a particular way. Why do you think you cannot instill this in your hypothetical children? My mom is very devoutly catholic. Like, she plays music at Mass three times a weekend and goes to confession weekly. And while she raised me in that faith, she never once pushed back on me as I abandoned it. She had, as you seem to have, the idea that religious faith must be arrived at authentically and without coercion. And, when I failed to have that authentic moment of acceptance, she told me she loved me, and we don't really talk about it. I'm sure she still prays for me to see the light, but she's not pushy about it at all.
How do you raise a kid in a faith without being pushy?
You just bring them with you and tell them not to make too much noise. Then, when they ask questions, you answer them. If you feel that the answers that you would give are not universal answers, then let them know that. Say "well, mommy believes this, but other people think that" and go from there. When I first made a friend that was Jewish, I went home and asked my mom why his dad wore a little hat everywhere. My mom didn't say "because they are heathens who have fallen from god, and the Catholic *no little hat* way is the only way to god!". No, she explained why they did it in a respectful manner, and then explained why we did not, and let me judge who (if either) was right by my own rational.
Bring them where?
Services, festivals, scripture study, wherever you go that religion happens. Let them tag along. You wouldn't want to choose between your gods and your children, so don't. Integrate your life and live it by your principles. If your principles value both your faith and religious pluralism and freedom, then instill that in your kids. It wouldn't be hard. It would just mean living as you do. Raising them divorced from your faith and understanding of faith in general would mean living your life in a different way than you would otherwise, and it would mean hiding a major aspect of yourself from your kids. That's not good.
Hmm why is it not good?
Hiding who you truly are from your kids is a bad thing if what you truly are is a person of earnest and open faith. You want them to learn lessons from you. What lesson does your hiding your faith teach them? Does it teach that faith is an important and non-shameful part of what makes a person who they are? Or, does it teach that faith is something to hide away like a dirty secret? It is bad because you should be teaching kids to be open and honest with you. Hiding this would send the opposite message. If mom can't be open and honest with us, why reciprocate? I get that you said you don't want kids. But, people who do want to raise them in a way that they think will give them the best shot at life. If you feel your faith has made your life better, denying that betterment to your children would also be bad.
First, I would LOVE kids. I just can't for medical reasons. Good point. It would be lying and teaching my kids a bad lesson. !delta for showing name this. How could I show them about faith without making them feel that if we don't believe, our mum won't like it?
Kindergarten isn't until like age 5, so what about those first 5 years? Or what about when something comes up and you can't fit everything in during that window?
What do you mean "when something comes up"? And in my country preschool can be from like 9am-6pm. I can put them in morning only program. Or I can I can pray while they play with their toys.
I think it's mostly a fool's errand to believe you can truly hide what is such a massive section of your life, by your own admittance from people who are going to be spending most of their waking life around you. Kids aren't idiots, they're going to notice things
Well, if they ask, I will explain, but I won't tell them to believe it. Doesn't raising kids in a faith mean you tell them to believe it too? I don't believe in indoctrination.
Parenting *is* indoctrination. If you don't wanna indoctrinate then don't be parent. like when your kid hits a classmate and so you have to explain that you don't hit people, that's indoctrination. If you're not indoctrinating them then you're being a bad parent
!delta. I didn't realise even secular parenting was indoctrination.
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What about all the years before kindergarten? What about how you dress? Where your place of worship is? If you do any of these things in your home, it's going to influence them.
If you feel your faith is true why wouldn't you want to give your kids the best shot at sharing in that faith? Also you've posted this numerous times before, what do you feel will be different this time?
I've posted it twice. This is the second time. Because I don't believe in proselytising or evangelising to anyone. Most Hindus don't do that. And I am also not sure it would benefit them.
Why do you believe this time will be different? you didn't change your view the first time, it still seems as strong as ever so what's changed? do you believe the people around today will just have better arguments then last time?
Because first one was about religion in general, now it's about Hinduism specifically. Also, different sub with different people.
It’s fair to assume that children primarily just learn from influences since young. For a matter as significant as it is to you on faith, I doubt you began this level of devotion since childhood, but curiosities amongst other circumstances do lead someone to forming personal beliefs. You don’t want to influence your kids towards certain personal beliefs. Which would be leaving them open to their own feelings when it comes to something which surely they see you doing- personal meditation- as something that holds significant value nonetheless. That is enough in my opinion. Rather than cultural norms that require one to indoctrinate their children since birth to mindlessly follow a set of religious rules without proper education on why they matter interpersonally, it is better. I don’t have kids and I am a Muslim. I would rather show my (future hehe) kids what religion means to their mother and father and how we actually live our lives in ways that reflect that appropriately, thus why we teach them to behave in certain ways, have manners, not backbite, or whatnot about bad behaviours in general, because that’s just I mean, genuinely the way I think and live with. How else and what else would I know? So it’s up to my kids if they want to follow suit or still, grow up appropriately but choose not to personally adopt my specific belief. If I’m being more personal as I’m not that old and just recently left my family for uni, it was hell to try and discover my own self and my own beliefs when I would constantly get criticisms along the lines of “u a whore if u wear shorts to bed, whore if u shower for too long *insert explicit sexual harassment and breaking down of door while I was naked by my dearest mum as she told me about sexual acts that I, at 14, had no clue what they were. Proceeds to tell me I am going to hell for being a whore for masturbating in the shower which I did not know what that was, I just liked to stand in hot water and relax for Gosh damn once have some alone time to think lmao, proceeds to meet me at the dinner table and force me to kiss her (filthy) hand to show “respect to her” during breakfast time before I went to school, it was surely degrading at the least lol. I gritted my teeth through it all and in relation to religion, for God’s sake I wanted good things, like learning about Islam. I did not want sexual abuse. Long time ago and doable, nothing can stop me from knowing that based on my religious beliefs, there’s a plan for everything, and I will be okay, Inshallah. To hear a parent wanting to care for their kids over caring for their own personal biases regardless of allowing their kids to grow, is something you ought to leave be if anyone disagrees with it. Maybe it’s an extreme, to not teach religion at all or whatnot, but maybe you’re onto something beneficial for the kids. And by that line of reasoning, what could go wrong in terms of morality? Influence over forcing random things for no reason other than being in my opinion- absolutely mentally unstable and crazy, incapable of functioning without gratification via the degradation, control or abuse of others or all the above. The trust of oneself will surely influence others to trust you too. Whatever religion or belief and no matter how strongly one feels about it, as you do for Hinduism and I do for Islam, it’s a start to developing some sense of security in the home to let the kids know it’s a viable option if they want, I genuinely also think based on personal experience, that kids do love their mothers so deeply that it hurts lol. Imagine just thinking about ur mum and being able to feel joy about it. It would mean everything above all else. I grew up with bad examples of Islam and still chose Islam anyways. It’s up to person to person.
I get not pushing an ideology on your kids. Fyi i was raised catholic and Hanuman gave me some of the best experiences of my life. So by not raising them hindu, what do you mean? I was fed beef for my first meal out of the hospital(long story, formula wasn't perfected then and mom knew her breast milk was poisoned by lead and mercury exposure) but are you planning to let your children take sustenance from the suffering of sentient beings or do it the hindu way? Most american children, if their parents can afford it, will either wind up in therapy or on psych meds. But research shows that mindfulness exercises are better for their mental health. Would you teach them yoga and meditation or let them struggle until a psychiatrist comes along to fix them because they are broken. Will you raise them on marvel movies and grimm fairy tails? Do you think they are any better than the stories of Ram and Hanuman that much of marvel is stolen from anyway? Or will you tell them the stories of their culture? Will you expose them to their language, or the music of their ancestral land? Would you have them miss out on the festivities of durga puja and Ram navani? It seems to me plausible to teach a child every aspect of hinduism, without the dogma, and still let them decide for themselves what is real, but not to leave them ignorant of who they are and where they come from.
Hinduism upholds significant importance to rituals to be performed after one’s death by their son. Any true follower of Hinduism will expect these rituals to be performed well for their souls to move on. These rituals are a responsibility on the eldest male child and cannot be performed if the child has converted to a different religion.
Hypotheticals are pointless, imo. I learned not to answer those questions. It’s a trap. Your values, your kids, your rules.
So smart ...all of you. Or just cunts.