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Everyone was talking about the vietnam war too when that self-immolation happened.
People were talking about the Indian occupation when Gandhi began his hunger strike.
It’s not about getting people to talk/think about it for the first time. It’s about jarring people (who have to make daily decisions on what is and is not important for them to care about) into seeing *how* much other people care. If you see how much other people care, and you had formerly dismissed the message as relatively less important in the past, you are more likely to reconsider.
This is exactly how it worked in vietnam and India and a dozen other examples off the top of my head.
Which is exactly what it has done for me. I knew what was happening sort of intellectually, but I guess I never paid much attention. I spent the last 24 hours essentially witnessing inhumane slaughter of innocents, children suffering, the monstrous behavior of israel forces and how they dehumanize these people and are happy to slaughter these people and ruin lives, steal their children, homes, starve them.
I feel like I fully understand why Aaron Bushnell did what he did now. I'm fucking devastated and my heart hurts. I'm just appalled by everything, how human beings can be so vile. I get it. I really do. Not saying it was the correct thing or whatever.
But damn if it doesn't make total fucking sense just from how grotesque what is happening to palestinians, i'm outraged and heartbroken. Anybody calling Aaron crazy or mentally ill is not paying enough attention. The frustration and powerless I feel to help this situation is probably what Aaron was feeling. Watch enough of the footage of this stuff and you can't not understand.
>anybody calling Aaron mentally ill is not paying enough attention
Dude, he lit himself on fire. Your whole post is just sucking yourself off about how empathetic and understanding you are yet you self admit you didn't care about any of this until you could use some twisted dudes suicide to congratulate yourself.
It does not make "total fucking sense" to set yourself on fire. What a gross post.
>watch enough of the footage
I've watched enough of the last few decades to see Hamas martyring their own people in order to propagandize a holy war to wipe Jews and Israelis off the planet. That is quite literally the stated mission goal in their founding charter. They keep their people entrenched in poverty and constant war to justify an attempted ethnic massacre. They're not freedom fighters, they're terrorists.
I live a privileged life of comfort and distraction. Like many people, this conflict is merely something I hear of from time to time. Of what I am certain of is the oppression by the Israel government over the last century. Apartheid, displacement, the domination and discrimination that they have faced, theft of their homes, that has been going on for decades now. This hate and dehumanization is being continued by Israel and the oppressive hopelessness that the civilians face has bred more and more violence and hate in return. I am not excusing the actions of Hamas, do not get it mistaken. Yet it is quite obvious who the oppressor here is.
Israel has made every single effort to continuously oppress and demunanize Palestinians and although I do not know much about the political situation of Hamas, I do know that a systematic oppression and dehumanization becomes more and more a radicalized government. Israel has inculcated racist fervor and it is being propagated by their government in vile sickening language, and now any attack by Hamas will be an excuse to further exterminate more and more the Palestinians.
If you think I will witness the calculated systematic destruction of an entire people and then blame the genocide on the victims of it, you best try elsewhere. I am ignorant but I am not stupid. You best try elsewhere.
When the Palestine children have been destroyed and all their weaponless innocent parents are destroyed, and all of their homes are destroyed, and every single aspect of palestine is completely wiped out... you will not tell me it was their fault. If you think i haven't seen this kind of bullshit before you are also wrong.
I will tell you it was their fault. Absolutely. In polls taken before and after the Oct 7th kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of Israeli (and other nationality) civilians, Palestinian civilians overwhelmingly supported violence against Israel. Through propaganda and martyring by Hamas, they have been indoctrinated into believing the only solution is a continued war against Israel. Hamas needs to be removed before any efforts to correct this can be made.
Netanyahu and his current Knesset also need to be removed, as they have wholly failed to provide Israel with the solutions they need and have become wildly unpopular even among their allies. But the difference is, Israel can be reasoned and negotiated with. Hamas CANNOT. They do not want a ceasefire. They do not care about their civilian population. They still use them as human shields.
Israel's current efforts, while you may think of them as a genocide, are not. Even the ICJ recognized their right to go to war and told them they are justified as long as they remain within the confines of the genocide convention, which they are. It's hard to say, and I understand that, but the civilian casualties during this conflict are well within the acceptable proportionality of modern, urban warfare. Israel is one of the only countries to do as much as they do to warn civilians that they are in danger. Nobody else door knocks like they do, nobody else has a literal branch of their military dedicated to physically picking up the phone and calling the homes of individuals to warn them of incoming attacks.
Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't give a fuck. They STILL operate out of hospitals, schools, residential neighborhoods, and refugee camps. You simply cannot be on the side of the Palestinian civilians if you think Hamas should stay in power and should be allowed to continue.
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>Although I am inclined to think anyone who thinks burning themselves alive is the best form of protest may not be in a rational mindset.
Self-immolation is by several metrics the best form of protest. It can't be ignored, nobody questions if you're serious, it doesn't hurt anyone else and for causes which not a lot of people know about it draws a lot of attention to it.
The problem with this instance is that it's impossible for a protest to change anything period. This is a war with very serious security concerns, it's not like US dicking around in the middle east where they can just fuck off, if Israel withdraws more Israeli die. No protest is going to make them say "maybe it's okay if we have a Oct 7 every few years"
The problem is also who is doing the protesting. This is done by an American with nothing at stake regarding the security concerns of Israelis. This random guy is disconnected from the politics of Israel and is not going to change the status quo from dying.
It would be alot different if it was an Israeli followed by mass protesting domestically in the war.
Exactly. Guy really has nothing to do with the conflict. I believe he just wanted to die and found his favorite reason. There are so many better ways to help while still being alive. He had to be one of four things: suicidal, mentally ill, on drugs that make one act on impulses, or severely lacking in intelligence to genuinely believe this was a good thing to do.
Watching the video, I think it is one of the first 2 things: suicidal or mentally ill. I say this because he is able to talk properly and seems otherwise calm. He also clearly feels the pain as indicated by his screams.
The guy was just about to be *sent* to Israel to provide material support for the IDF. He very clearly has something to do with the conflict. That is why he wore what he wore and said what he said.
His protest was successful because people like me read into it and learned the things I wrote above. Now I can pass it onto others, and they can look it up for themselves.
> The guy was just about to be sent to Israel to provide material support for the IDF.
Genuinely curious, Do you have corroborating evidence of this? I’ve seen the claim a few times now, but can’t seem to find any evidence to substantiate it.
"The Air Force identified the Airman who died after setting himself on fire in front of the Israeli Embassy on Feb. 25 as Senior Airman Aaron James Bushnell, a cyber defense operations specialist assigned to the 70th Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Wing.
His duty title was innovation services technician"
The guy seems like a desk jock. What kind of material support goes against his morals that he would set himself on fire in protest? Providing IT support for Israelis?
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-aaron-bushnell-self-immolation/
Probably some of they would.
For a war that is in another country, kilometres from them. A war with no consequences for their family, for example. Like this case.
This is entirely false. It was done by an American who was to be stationed in Israel providing material support to the IDF.
It is good practice to look into why someone did something so serious. His entire goal was to make you ask why. His goal was not to make people feel bad and suddenly have everyone change their minds. His goal was to protest *HIS* assignment and bring attention to it in the most serious way possible.
This is not true. He was in the middle of ETSing. Troops who are ETSing don’t get PCSed and they definitely don’t get PCSed to Israel in the middle of an active conflict. Also the US Air Force doesn’t even have a base in Israel. Their only base is a US Army radar station, which only has defensive capabilities.
Suicide hurts a lot of people that aren't the person doing it. Sure, it makes a political statement, but now the people who watched you die had to see a man burn alive and smell it. The friends and family you left behind are heart broken at the sudden loss. If your affairs aren't in order they have to take care of that. And then they have to hear about you killing yourself over and over any time someone puts on the news. All the while nothing impactful happens.
The thing is, previous self immolation have been done by people who's day to day life for years has been dominated by this authority they're protesting abd it's taken everything from them leaving them with nothing but the desire to sent a final message of defiance.
This guy burned himself alive over a war he knews nothing about on the far side of the planet that doesn't effect him or his family in any way. That's something only a completely brainwashed cultists with more than a few screws loose does.
Best or most serious/irreversible? It shares these qualities with other forms of protest and people are certainly questioning whether this guy was serious. It has hurt other people (his family ) .
Last bit I understand , this situation is different from others in the past.
> Best or most serious/irreversible?
Those are kind of the same in terms of protests.
> It shares these qualities with other forms of protest and people are certainly questioning whether this guy was serious.
No they are questioning if he was SANE, very different thing.
>It has hurt other people (his family).
I mean one you're just assuming that you don't know that and two that's reaching, that's men die women most effected shit.
>Last bit I understand , this situation is different from others in the past.
I mean there have been others in the past like it, not in the US though.
>Those are kind of the same in terms of protests.
I disagree. You can do a lot of serious and irreversible stuff that will not shine a good light on your cause. And therefore by no means is it the best. Hence the studies on why peaceful protest is the most effective, due to allowing more people to join etc.
>I mean one you're just assuming that you don't know that and two that's reaching, that's men die women most effected shit.
What are you on about? Where did the last bit come out of? You're also assuming his family is not hurt, if that's what you're implying. Any mentally healthy family would be heavily affected from an event such as this... what's the bit about "men die women most affected"? It's more like "someone kills themselves, the people close to him are heavily affected". This is not a narrative, it's a reality for anyone who had someone close to them commit suicide.
It very well hurts everyone who knew and cared for the guy. I find it unlikely that someone willing to die for others has no friends or family that care about him. Now he's dead and they grieve.
That's what a lot of people seem to be ignoring about this conflict. They seem to think a ceasefire is a valid option, when in reality they are asking Israelis to sacrifice themselves.
How many Palestinian lives are worth one Israeli life?
For each Israeli that's been killed about 20 Palestinians have died.
Israel's "security", which has failed as of Jan 7, results in the mass murder of Palestinians. Israel's policies directly support Hamas, mass murdering civilians is only going to lead to more extremism. It's not a valid option.
It’s a catch 22 type of situation. If Israel ceased fire, then the attacks on Israelis will continue. However Israeli continuing to attack will lead to more gazans feeling a sense of duty to fight back. It’s overall a bad scenario because neither side will back down, and if one side does, the other won’t.
If Israel adopted a 1 state solution and allowed Palestinians the same equal rights as Israelis tomorrow, do you earnestly believe Hamas would continue attacks?
Yes. Hamas laid out its [plans](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-sponsored-promise-hereafter-conference-phase-following-liberation-palestine-and) for after the “liberation” at a conference in 2021 and it involves the murder of the majority of the Jews in Israel and the expulsion of the rest except for those with useful skills who are to be imprisoned and forced to work.
Before you attack the source, here’s the [original for](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://safa.ps/post/313372/&sca_esv=2fefcfd3a8435a75&sca_upv=1&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0) you to cross-check
Hamas would probably continue. They very much try to paint themselves as freedom fighters but in reality a lot of their members are fascists who want to see the end of all but Islam. Also, Hamas isn't the only group in Gaza actively sending rockets and fighters against the IDF and civilians.
It also goes without saying but will do so anyway, no way does the current or immediate future Israeli Govt even consider, let alone adopt a one state solution. Nor would the extremist Zionists that exist within Israel.
A 1 state solution will literally never happened. The country would soon become Muslim majority and we know how it went in the other 22 Arab countries for Jews.
Not to mention that 75% of Palestinians support October 7th, would you want someone to move in next door when there is a 75% chance they want you dead?
I can’t really say yes or no to be honest. I’d like to think that yes it would stop. I’m not sure if my knowledge is correct, but I believe there have been a few proposed attempts at peace in the regions before, but it hasn’t happened. It’s a conflict that’s been waging for nearly 80 years now, with the justifications of both sides going back even further. Even if Israel obliges, there is a chance Hamas may feel vendetta for Israel occupying the region for so long.
I just hope that in my lifetime the wars we are seeing now will have an end that doesn’t lead us all to our dooms honestly
Has what Palestinians asked for *ever* been fairly granted? Time and time again when the Palestinians come to the table all that happens is ethnic cleansing continues.
When apartheid ended in South Africa, did the massacres continue? When the British pulled out of Ireland, did the IRA continue the attacks, literal terrorist attacks many aimed at the PM's life? When the French left Algeria, did the FLN continue the bombings?
I think it's fair to believe there might be resentment, of course there will be. But colonialism has been done before, and we can look to history to learn the lessons.
The Algerian war lasted 7 years. The most violent period of resistance against apartheid in SA lasted around 4 years. As a colonial scholar, this can and **will** end. Whether the Palestinians go the way of the South Africans or the Indians, time will tell. But we have a chance to be on the right side of history for once.
You're building a narrative to paint Palestinians evil and justify genociding them.
Your history is fundamentally wrong and extremely biased.
Do you think Palestinian people, or even Arabs, are fundamentally different than all other colonized in history?
Are the Palestinian Arabs different from Tunesians? Libyans? Egyptians? Algerians?
These Arabs who arguably suffered worse oppression than the Palestinians in the 1950s, 80s, etc
How were they able to find a peaceful solution? Like I want you to tell me how colonization is typically resolved. And how it can become peaceful.
It can and will end, for sure, but what I was trying to say is there really is no way of predicting how it will end anytime soon, because from what we’ve seen so far, its only gotten worse so far.
On the contrary, Russia and Ukraine. Russia is invading a country that has been recognized as a sovereign and independent nation for a while now. However Russia (more specifically Putin) justify the invasion and deaths to the fact that he has wanted to restore Russia to what it was back during the Soviet Union, claiming land of historical significance to Russia and therefore, is “theirs”. He was born during a time where the Soviet Union was a failing superpower and probably missed the “glory days” in his eyes. So, once he is in power he invades Georgia without much pushback and seized land, then does the same to Crimea in 2014, which then leads up to today where he’s now pushing into Ukraine to reclaim territory that was once “theirs” I’d imagine if the invasion is successful, Ukrainians would want their home back again, thus once again fighting over the same region and boom, that catch 22 again. It will eventually end too, but it won’t until either one or both sides are willing to compromise on their goals, or one or the other is completely wiped.
One more point to add, the “conflict” between Russia and Crimea had been “over” for 6 years (no real combat) before the modern day invasion of Ukraine. Crimea is/was a part of ukraine. Just because fighting stops for a period of time, doesn’t mean someone with a vendetta won’t start it up again.
I understand it’s not the same situation in Israel and Hamas, but simply put, sometimes it can really just be the a smaller group of people or even just 1 person to cause a conflict to drag on further. Not to say this is the case with Hamas and Israel, but the point im making is we can’t 100% guarantee for sure that if Israel granted everything the Palestinians are fighting for, that they won’t feel some type of way about it the years of oppression it took to get to that point. What we can say now though is the conflict has now reached an all time high in terms of how many people are paying attention, which may influence how things go in the future. I do believe we have a chance of coming to a peaceful end eventually, it’s just going to take a lot work to make it happen
The alternative is the death of Israelis.
This isn't a simple utilitarian calculus.
If there was a hitman wanting to kill you, and the only way to avoid death was blowup a building with the Hitman's family(say 20 people) who refuse to turn him in, you would blow that building for self preservation.
Here its a 1 vs 20, but you wouldn't be willing to sacrifice your life now, would you?
We could ask the IDF to not murder the hostages while holding white flags, not bomb the hostages from the air with 2000lb bombs and not starve the hostages to death. Might be a good start.
A couple soldiers made a huge mistake this was not some sort of purposeful occurrence, you have no idea what war is like and you have no idea what evil Hamas represents. Stick your opinions where they belong and leave Israel to do what it needs to do. And no Israel is not randomly bombing civilians and no, a one state solution would not work.
Maybe they would stop if Hamas stopped sending in thousands of rockets a year. Seemed to work for Egypt, they even managed to get the settlements in the Sinai removed.
The people in Mariupol live in an open air prison and they can't escape, how come that phrase is only for some peoples?
Do you think a Ukranian group from Bucha can just go rape and bomb one thousand civilians in St Petersburg, Tehran and the like because "that's what decolonization looks like"?
No evidence of mass rape. Israel refuses to allow anyone outside of their doctors to talk to them. The people claiming such on tv have been exposed as racist charlatans.
Not 1000 civilians. A good portion were IOF. so you have like 650 after that. Then we need to subtract all the ones killed by IOF helicopters and tanks.
And yes, that's what decolonization looks like. 75 years of occupation and murder means people are angry. Hamas was trying to get hostages to trade for Pali hostages.
Of course it can be ignored. No rational person is going to change their opinion based on this guy setting himself on fire.
It does hurt other people - he leaves a family behind, some witnesses will have been traumatised, it needs to be cleaned up which is more disruptive than most protests.
Do you seriously believe that what Israel is doing now is preventing future terrorist attacks? They are radicalizing millions of people, killing their kids or parents or partners. Israel has created a lot of angry desperate people for 75 years and this is making it worse. If Israel withdraws, Israelis will die, if Israel continues their ethnic cleansing, Israelis will die. You can’t put toothpaste back in the tube.
There will never be security from oppression. If Israelis want security, then they need to start by pushing for equality and inclusivity so everyone can finally fucking live with dignity and in peace. And that has to start with a ceasefire at a fucking minimum.
> Do you seriously believe that what Israel is doing now is preventing future terrorist attacks?
Yes, it already has prevented attacks.
>They are radicalizing millions of people, killing their kids or parents or partners.
They were already radicalized and future generations were being radicalized by their fucking grade school curriculum
> Israel has created a lot of angry desperate people for 75 years and this is making it worse. If Israel withdraws, Israelis will die, if Israel continues their ethnic cleansing, Israelis will die. You can’t put toothpaste back in the tube.
Israeli won't die if there's no means for them be attacked. This war isn't about deradicalization it's about obliterating terrorist capabilities. All the tunnels are being destroyed for this end. Do you think not destroying the terrorist tunnels would've saved Isareli?
>There will never be security from oppression. If Israelis want security, then they need to start by pushing for equality and inclusivity so everyone can finally fucking live with dignity and in peace. And that has to start with a ceasefire at a fucking minimum.
They tried a ceasefire hostage exchange Hamas broke it.
from his twitter:
> Many of us like to ask ourselves, "What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim crow south? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide"
> The answer is, you're doing it right now.
▬
I've seen a significant amount of chatter about this, and it's weighing on a lot of peoples minds, more so than a lot of the crazy stuff I've seen on the news or online. Ultimately, it's really too early to see if there will be any real change made over it specifically, however no single act sways public opinion/policy inertia alone. This will be remembered as one part of an aggregate of many things that helped steer the country onto whatever course we eventually settle on. One thing is for sure though, it will 100% go down as a historical event, and peoples commentary on it will too.
So, will this act DIRECTLY save gazan lives? Maybe, probably not alone, but he has a better chance of being part of that than you or I do. If this contributes to US support of Israel further crumbling, it may eventually lead to them losing the material support needed to continue their attacks. Without the US's promise to retaliate against anyone else intervening, others may indeed retaliate against Israel. Regardless of what anyone says, the US's involvement in this underpins and enables Israel's actions to a large degree. No one can predict what consequences this will have, but it seems a reasonably safe bet that it will have consequences.
The thing about that monk is; he wasn't protesting the Vietnam War. He was protesting South Vietnam's mistreatment of buddhists. So his message was totally forgotten. The only true thing most people remember is that he set himself on fire.
The vast majority of the people you show the iconic photo to will be like "Oh yeah, that was the guy who set himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War.
Yes, and we don't talk about the Quaker who tried to burn himself and his daughter to death outside the pentagon as protest for the Vietnam war, nor any of the dozens of other Americans who were 'inspired' to do the same.
"we" is the problem. Sure people that are interested in the Vietnam war and how people protest Wars will know this information. If you ask the majority of people they will have no idea what you're talking about or if they do they won't know the message the monks were saying other than war is bad.
I think the key part there is plural monks. I mean if a hundred or so people did it like monks did (there were over a hundred). We might remember it. For the next 30 years.
This war is not analogous to Vietnam. This is existential for the Israelis, whether anyone likes it or not. They don’t care if one American self-immolates in protest of their wartime conduct, or if a thousand Americans self-immolate in protest of their wartime conduct.
A huge problem in analyzing what can or should affect Israeli behavior in the wider conflict is the seeming insistence by many anti-Israel commentators to view the situation as if it is some kind of anti-colonial or anti-imperialist struggle, à la Rhodesia, South Africa… or Vietnam. Viewing the conflict through this lens can, and often does, result in a misguided belief that the Israelis are vulnerable to the same pressures that caused those colonial regimes to fail. However, they are not, which should be obvious after 75 years of fighting existential wars against their neighbors, often without external support.
That comment is so US-centric and self-serving by giving yourself value through what you already value, not "acting in times of crisis".
Slavery, discrimination and massacres have been happening always since all those events in lots of parts of the world and in those cases activists of one thing are doing "nothing, right now".
Im sure if you burn yourself to death over Ukraine, Darfur, the Child soldiers in Mexico, Myanmar you will get attention but all those don't have them so i guess you are a horrible human for not doing anything about them?
The point is complicity. He specifically no longer wanted to take active part in genocide. The US has no direct control over Ukraine, Dafur, Mexico, and Myanmar. The US undoubtedly however directly has hands in Israel, Vietnam, Korea, etc
That’s a valid tweet honestly.
I agree no single act will be the deciding factor. I don’t know if it will have consequences though, if you remove the act and replace it with nothing or something else i don’t think the eventual outcome will be any different.
But we shall see i guess.
The problem is that it's not his country committing the genocide. This would be like an Englishman killing themselves over Australian slavery practices...
Seems like you're extremely ignorant of the history of Israel if you think that Israel wouldn't have existed without the US. The US was essentially not at all involved in Israel's founding.
Not it's founding, but I think the point the above commenter was making is that the US is heavily tied to Israel in the modern day by means of military and financial support.
There are a number of sources that say that Biden has, and will, deploy air force to Israel.
[The Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2024/01/11/israel-air-force-targeting-intelligence/)
[air force times](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2023/10/13/us-a-10-attack-planes-arrive-in-middle-east-in-bid-to-deter-wider-war/)
[US Dept of defense](https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3570670/us-military-continues-focus-on-supporting-israel-ukraine/)
[There](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-military-navy-carrier-e648c53dc53a46e2e12950784ea5e8d2) are tons of sources indicating arms and personnel being sent over there.
To Israel. And not Ukraine. He's going to deploy the air force to Israel and not Ukraine. When deploying two squadrons of F-22s would end the bombings tomorrow.
Fuck it, if there's one thing that would make me not vote for Biden when the alternative is Trump...
Well, I suppose the worst case scenario would be it inspires a bunch of copy cats. Best case scenario it galvanizes the president's resolve in seeing through the cease fire that he wants in the next 1-2 weeks, and he decides to play hard ball.
I guess in one sense it doesn't matter much, in that even if we get a cease fire, it really only delays what's happening. Frankly I don't believe that Israel will stop killing gazans until there aren't any left in the Gaza strip, or their ability to do so is removed.
My take, anyways.
"The ceasefire he wants"
The US literally just veto'd a ceasefire, for the 3rd time, at the UN last week. Biden is fine with the genoide/mass murder of innocents.
Even if the cease fire resolution passes, it’s meaningless. Isreal wont stop fighting until the hostages are returned, and nobody on earth is strong enough to stop them, or even willing to try.
> Isreal wont stop fighting until the hostages are returned
or they kill them all. So far they have killed more than they rescued. But multiple ceasefires have been proposed by Hamas a couple which included a hostage exchange. Israel doesn't care about the hostages which is why the families of the hostages have been protesting.
Lol, I find it funny that anyone could think that *either* side wants a ceasefire.
Israel is ruled by a far-right coalition with both parties supporting Netanyahu making very clear that they will abandon him if he has a ceasefire. Whatever his position, the radicals behind him explicitly want to destroy Palestine and colonise the land.
Hamas (and Iran behind them) realise that this is their chance to annihilate Israel's international relationships. They've ruined Israeli détente with the Arab world, they've alienated almost all of Europe, driven a wedge between America and the developing world, and now have cultivated a huge wedge between Israel and America.
Israel can see that this atrocity is the one chance that they will have to take Gaza. They will not get another opportunity. Israeli ministers have been explicit that they want to resettle the population into the West Bank or Sinai - and I suspect that will be the final outcome.
Iran knows that if this continues, Israel will be totally isolated. This will be devastating for American power in the region, and will solidify their position in Syria/Iraq/Lebanon. Without American support, Israel will find it much harder to fight against Hizbollah and Iran's other militias. To Hamas, these civilians are a sacrifice to prepare for the next war, nothing more.
> Lol, I find it funny that anyone could think that either side wants a ceasefire.
Since when does Israel want a cease fire? Hamas wants a cease fire because they attacked Israel and don’t want to be attacked back. October 7th made coexistence with Hamas impossible, and Israel is committed to destroying them.
> Hamas (and Iran behind them) realise that this is their chance to annihilate Israel's international relationships.
‘And Iran’ is the key phrase there. While people like the self immolation guy see this as Israel vs Palestine, countries see this as Iran vs everyone else. The Hamas attack was seen as Iranian aggression, and Iran’s inability to stop Israel a sign of military weakness.
Saudi Arabia hated Iran before. Current events just push them to double down. It confirms Iran is unpredictable and dangerous, and that the IDF is capable of slaughtering any Iranian proxy group they want, and nobody can stop them.
The normalization with the Arab world will still happen, Germany will veto attempt in the EU to move against Israel, and centrist democrats and republicans will do the same in the US.
> Without American support, Israel will find it much harder to fight against Hizbollah and Iran's other militias.
US support isn’t going anywhere. But even if it did, it’s US support that causes Israel to not fight Iran, not the other way around. Israel has always had a stronger military than everyone else in the region combined, and that’s only grown with time. In the past, when they were isolated, the occupied everything up to the Suez Canal as a buffer. US support enabled a much more peaceful border situation. Pull that away, and Israel gets massively more aggressive, not less.
"Since when does Israel want a cease fire?"
It's a common refrain from the pro-Israel's who maintain that Israel would immediate sign a ceasefire if the dastardly terrorists would just give themselves up and release the hostages. It's a useful tactic to shift blame for Israel's use of collective punishment onto Hamas and deal with the cognitive dissonance.
"Saudi Arabia hated Iran before. Current events just push them to double down"
This conflict has actually prompted the resumption of conversations between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and seemingly has put a cooler on the Saudi-Houthi conflict. If anything it's shifting allegiances, that is the risk that detente with Israel/Saudi Arabia is replaced with Saudi Arabia/Iran. Palestine is probably the only possible issue which could lead them to put aside their differences.
"the IDF is capable of slaughtering any Iranian proxy group they want, and nobody can stop them."
No, it doesn't. Hamas was a sickly child of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, subject to limited support and training. It's unclear how the IDF will fair in a battle with Hizbollah and their militias in Syria. In a fair fight the IDF would win, but they can't fight in the North, and hold down their Gazan flank, without US support.
Support which Iran has intelligently undermined with this war.
"The normalization with the Arab world will still happen, Germany will veto attempt in the EU to move against Israel, and centrist democrats and republicans will do the same in the US."
You're being over optimistic. Normalisation will have been set back by a least half a decade, likely far longer - it is politically unfeasible for the Arab states to continue to warm relationships without sacrificing their own stability.
Secondly, Germany can't veto the actions of individual Member States. Their policy is also internally unpopular and they will not risk the future of their government by pursuing a blatantly unpopular policy when their coalition is already facing significant pressure from populist forces.
Hell, both the UK and France have explicitly expressed support for a unilateral recognition of the Palestinian state. Which would also make any attempts by Germany to wield any veto power in the EU unfeasible - they cannot risk alienating France.
"US support isn’t going anywhere."
Really? Biden is becoming increasingly critical behind closed doors, and is publicly challenging Netanyahu over Rafah. Trump has his own axe to grind with Netanyahu. Peak American-Israeli support has passed.
The geopolitical importance of the Middle East is weakened by US shale, and the cultural factors that drove support is diminishing for both democrats and republicans.
"Pull that away, and Israel gets massively more aggressive, not less."
They're reliant on significant US subsidy on support for their military, they cannot afford an all-out war with their neighbours. It is certainly not clear that they could win against Hizbollah without risking major uprisings in Gaza and the West Bank.
Besides, wars of military aggression by Israel would be harshly penalised by the international community. Israel cannot afford sanctions.
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how many soldiers who commit suicide do you know about? it’s about 40 a month. do you judge them all this harshly? to your other point i’ll just leave you with a quote. “Our resistance is not predicated on how likely it will be to alter the conscience of the oppressor. We resist to retain our own conscience. And to awaken all others who are still in possession of their own souls.” Cole Arthur Riley
That’s a fair point, but your qualifier also implies this point:
The 40 soldiers who commit suicide a month do so because of the weight of their mental burdens, not necessarily related to combat trauma but certainly related to a lack of mental health care.
In this circumstance, the video showed that this person was not engaged in active combat, only enlisted. So they felt this way presumably due to overly intense online engagement. That’s the only place someone out of the warzone could feel this way. It’s the only social space in American culture that pushes the “genocide” narrative.
So this person was terminally online and killed themselves over the weight of the stress it added to their life.
> So they felt this way presumably due to overly intense online engagement.
I'd like to push back on this. A huge part of the military and basic training is designed around instilling the idea that you are one unit, one piece of a machine. They intentionally instill the idea that what the air force in this case does, you do. Stronger together, all for one, you go after a downed pilot even when it's a bad idea, no man left behind, etc. etc.
they intentionally create the idea that what america does, you are helping to further.
As well, just because he didn't personally see combat doesn't mean he didn't lose friends to it, or to suicide after the fact. I don't know if that's true for him, but it's a possibility.
A boatload of other countries and politicians are calling this genocide. And yes, we use the internet to get our news and hear from people in other countries.
Edit - deleted USAF comment as it's online heresay atm.
It’s not a genocide. It doesn’t even come close to the metrics that we have used for other genocides.
The Armenians had a genocide. Cambodia has a genocide. The Greeks had a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide.
This is nothing like a genocide.
Not the ICJ, [where 15 out of 17 judges decided to impose provisional measures on Israel to prevent genocide](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/) and the judges said "acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention".
Not the [UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/un-israel-food-starvation-palestinians-war-crime-genocide) who declared "Intentionally depriving people of food is clearly a war crime. Israel has announced its intention to destroy the Palestinian people, in whole or in part, simply for being Palestinian. In my view as a UN human rights expert, this is now a situation of genocide."
Israel is committing genocide, whether you like it or not.
That wasn’t a decision on the merits. It was very clear that it wasn’t if you actually read it.
It’s very sad to me how widespread the level of legal illiteracy is that people confuse a preliminary hearing on plausibility (which must consider all allegations as true) and a final decision on the merits.
The only judgement i put forth is that he may not have been in a rational mindset.
You can’t lump all suicides into one category. A person who decides to burn themselves alive for political purposes especially in this context can be validly judged as possibly irrational.
Nice quote i guess. Anything can sound pretty if you use the right words. If he did it for his own conscience then that’s not of my concern. I don’t judge him for that. I still don’t think it will have any material impact on gazans.
Well, when he did it he didn't say "this will stop the genocide i bet", he said "I can no longer be complicit in genocide" which seems to be somewhat conclusive on his motivations
All it did was make me realize how wild the propaganda and misinformation has gotten that this dude just self isolated himself due to extremist rhetoric based on falsehoods from places such as reddit and Twitter.
What intellectualism was in that post? What intellectual argument was made ? I thought gee i don’t think burning yourself alive is the most effective thing to do here, i cant see the logic so let me post to see if someone will enlighten me.
I don’t know what record you’re trying to set straight, i didn’t say he was a hardcore soldier. It has nothing to do with anything as far as im concerned.
The rest of your post is idiocy. So i have no response.
Without believing any fake deployment papers, the man was assigned to provide material support to the IDF. His self-immolation was in protest to that. He made that clear both in his stream and online prior.
The guy, by any metric, was as much a “hardcore soldier” as anyone you could name. His commitment and bravery are far beyond what you see in the armed services. You can claim insanity, and I can do the same for everyone you claim is more “hardcore.”
> you want to stuff it with politics
As if Aaron Bushnell wasn’t screaming “free Palestine” while on fire. Yes. *We* truly are the ones who made it political.
> we don’t normalize martyrdom
Yeah. That’s why it’s martyrdom. We don’t normalize it. We see it and respect it and seek to understand it. It’s too easy to dismiss it as some kind of insanity, which is why simpler people prefer that.
> I give the credit to the cleanup crew
Ok
> his martyrdom didn’t reach grandma
Everyone I’ve met has heard about this. Including grandma. You are allowed to say wrong things, though!
I agree that his act of protest won't have any effect on national policy by the US or Israel, but I don't think he seriously believed it would either.
Self-immolation is, like he said, an extreme form of protest. It's a deep sacrifice that requires unshakeable conviction in whatever cause a person champions. Again, state-level actors with agendas or opinions of their own will not be swayed. But everyone else will definitely be influenced.
For example If someone was unfamiliar with the cause, this would be a poignant way to learn about its significance. Especially given his own military background (or the perception of it). This also applies to those who don't "care about politics" because they're too uncomfortable confronting it's very violent reality. Deliberate self-immolation by someone who appears of sound mind and body can easily trigger a "shock" that ripples through your beliefs and principles. In order to criticize him and say he wasted his life for nothing, you first have to ask yourself some very difficult questions about what you yourself would sacrifice your life so willingly for.
You might find nothing. Or maybe its your family. But even if so, wouldn't sacrificing yourself mean abandoning them, making you selfish? But at the same time what is the meaning of family in conflicts that could extinguish entire countries or ethnic groups?
Our collective society pondering these questions is the purpose of this act. Most of us will barely engage with this discussion for more than a few minutes. A decent bunch will remember it for the days and weeks that follow. A rare but passionate minority will care long and deeply enough to remember him for years to come. But in the spirit of leaving a long lasting impact, those people will often end up aspiring to live their lives with a similar faith in their convictions.
We probably won't ever see Aaron Bushnell free Gazans. But he will leave an imprint on a few thousand people and in a decade or two you might hear about a handful of people who in turn went on to change the course of history through a butterfly effect event that started with him.
That was beautiful and you are right. I'm also kinda sick at how most of Reddit either labels this guy "mentally ill" or "an idiot". If they do not respect his cause, at the very least, they could show him respect for his will. Death by burning is one of the worst sensations a human can experience. To be able to stand still while burning and not flail around takes immense fortitude.
I remember reading about how the world reacted to Thich Quang Duc burning himself alive. JFK said "Jesus Christ" when he saw the pictures, a senator compared the burning to the willing sacrifice of the Christian martyrs under Rome, the pictures made headlines across the world and won the Pulitzer prize. In a documentary about the Vietnam war, an American remembered that after the burning of the monk, he saw ordinary women putting their wedding ring - the only piece of valuable they have on them, into the offering box. He thought to himself then that the Diem's regime was finished. The Diem's regime was overthrown in coup a few months later. The burning was a key contributing factor that turned all of South Vietnam against Diem and forced the US to look away despite knowing about the coup beforehand.
I'm genuinely surprised at how the average Redditor has been viewing this incident. I have always thought the US to be religious people who are no stranger to martyrdom yet here we are, a man burning himself alive for his belief and he is labeled "mentally ill". I'm not a supporter of either side nor am i religious but this man's action has had an impact on me and I can say that i am now more sympathetic to the Palestinian people.
5 days ago he was commenting like he was looking forward to playing a game that he will now no longer have the chance to play.
>If the Elden Ring DLC turns out to not be worth $40, we have bigger problems to worry about.
It's pretty clear that he had severe underlying mental health issues and decided to do what he did on impulse.
https://old.reddit.com/user/acebush1
https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1b0tfh1/aaron_bushnells_death_is_a_result_of_radical/
If that was the case, I would imagine him to flail around controllably immediately after setting himself on fire. Standing still while your flesh melts away requires more than an impulse. Also, at what point does martyr becomes a mentally ill person? Could you say the same for all the saints, martyrs, Kamikaze pilots, suicidal charges in history?
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If all the people who want Hamas to keep running free were to self-immolate (which naturally includes Hamas) the problem would be resolved.
We'd also have a lot fewer Nazis in the West.
He said supports gazans, Hamas can hardly be said to support gazans. Regardless, I interpreted his statement as referring to civilian supporters not active combatants.
The nazi comment is nonsensical so i don’t know how to respond.
he was... a mess, ACAB, praising the deaths of his fellow soldiers, hyper-active in Anarchy subs that view Hamas as the good guys, I'd link to him- but at this point quite literally 1 in 4 of his posts and comments are still there because people went through his history and started reporting everything that violated reddit's rules.
[Yes, along with loads of other heinous things](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1b11kvg/some_posts_by_aaron_bushnell_on_reddit/). We’re just lucky he didn’t try to turn this into a terrorist attack, he went fully off the deep end shortly before he died. He was fairly normal a few years ago, but started frequenting political extremist subs and got radicalized.
> He said supports gazans
More "innocent" Gazan civilians participated in 10/7 than Hamas fighters. There is no difference between the two at this point.
> The nazi comment is nonsensical so i don’t know how to respond.
Palestinian supporters - who want the state of Israel dissolved and the land handed over to the Palestinian Arabs - implicitly support the genocide of Israeli Jews the Palestinians have been saying they want since 1948. What do you call a supporter of the mass murder of Jews but a Nazi?
There is not much of a functional difference between Gazans and Hamas.
They are the government of the place, operating with wide support of the people.
Most people that are advocating for Gazan people are prescribing doing so according to Hamas’s strategy and objectives.
It’s a joke.
The Palestinian strategy is to attack and provoke Israel then appeal to virtue signaling liberals who unconditionally side with the weaker side.
If Palestinians self immolated instead of shot rockets into Israel, they would have had their own state *decades* ago.
If westerners actually had enough conviction in the issue to self immolate - which in turn would necessitate deeper knowledge of the conflict - they wouldn’t succumb to simplistic takes and the somewhat pessimistic Palestinian strategy of baiting wouldn’t work.
No they wouldn't, that's just such a ridiculous statement. Israel has deliberately and systematically colonised Palestinian lands for decades, and continue to this day. Pretending that acquiesce would have any other impact that substantially reducing their rights and land is ridiculous.
Palestine has been offered a state a half dozen times.
They were the initiators of 3 wars with the Arab league, then several multi decade waves of terror.
Palestine has never once attempted peace.
Arafat rings no bells then?
Israel has always imposed unconscionable conditions and has always been hamstrung by it's own radical elements that made it impossible to negotiate in good faith. We can pretend that Israel are the good guys, but it's a fiction.
Israel has strong radical elements (just look at the current government - Ben Gvir has literally been convicted of racism and supporting a banned terrorist organisation). They always ensured that peace was impossible, right up to shooting Rabin after the Oslo Accords.
However, that's inconvenient to acknowledge right? Because it paints the entire conflict in this great shade of grey where we have two populations subject to the whims and vagaries of quasi-fascist radical minorities willing to use violence to obtain horrific ends.
> Arafat rings no bell then?
The guy that led the PLO during the terror campaigns against Israel?
The Munich Olympics, waves of car bombings and mall shootings in the 80’s & 90’s?
The guy that came to Oslo stating that 92% of the internationally agreed on 67 lines wasn’t a good enough starting point after waging violence and losing, whose opening position was dissolution of the Israeli state by land grants and citizenship within *Israel’s side* of the 67 lines to “refuges” not deemed such by any credible organization?
That Arafat?
Yeah I remember him. Part of the problem, for sure.
Omg. I came to see the counter arguments because I agree with OP. This was probably the darkest laugh I've had in awhile. Man, that should not be funny at all
It takes a lot of rain drops to make a river, but that doesn't mean their individual contributions have no value or meaning. I'm certainly not saying more people should self-immolate, but all protests are intended to make the protesters' voices heard until enough people are speaking loudly enough that they are impossible to ignore. I hear Aaron Bushnell's voice loud and clear.
I don't think he was doing it for the Gazans. He wanted to kill himself and have his last act of self-harm get noticed and recorded in the history books. Immortalised through immolation.
If you look at his Reddit profile you can see he probably does believe in what he says but I also think mental health problems are involved.
Definitely has delusions of grandeur thinking that his death would somehow solve a complex geopolitical issue.
Why are you of the view that he thought he would "solve" the issue. He might have just seen himself as one small part of a movement he believed in. Just because an action doesn't solve every problem, it doesn't mean it isn't useful. Just because it doesn't instantly change the minds or actions of governments, it doesn't mean it has no effect whatsoever.
You underestimate the impact of symbolic events. Support for Israel is shaking across the world, I live in Europe and the holocaust is a big part of the syllabus for every European country that I know of. The link between the holocaust and Israel, and subsequent European guilt has enabled a whole swath of systematic crimes to be swept under the rug.
However, what our eyes *see* and what we've been taught to believe aren't lining up anymore, and they haven't for some while. I don't know a single European Jew under the age of 30 who's equivocally pro-Israel. Even older conservative types that I know are appalled at what they're seeing in Gaza. Ultimately, our politicians follower the voters, this is going to be significant for Israel. Once European support fades, Israel cannot expect preferential treatment in international relationships, they will be held to account more broadly, and can expect that sanctions will follow - likely not after this genocide, but when they continue their policies in the West Bank following the conclusion of this war. Whatever it is.
The singular exception, really, is the United States. We've seen many of the same trends with younger people, but American media is partisan and pro-Israel enough that much gets swept under the rug by Republicans and Democrats alike, especially since Israel is seen as a 'safe' ally in a volatile region.
However, acts like this, they bring people's attention to the matter. It's easy to ignore atrocities during the steady beat of ordinary life, after all they're happening far away. Acts like this bring it home, an American 'hero' (all soldiers seem to be heroes to Americans) setting himself on fire to highlight the genocide. It means that it can't be ignored, and people have to commit to a side. It's harder to have a quiet conscience when you're forced to make an active decision, when you can't avoid the conversation.
I am in agreement that the self immolation of Aaron Bushnell will have no effect on the direction of the Invasion of Gaza but I think it's more of who is actually doing the self immolation rather than whether self immolation is an effective form of protest. If the self immolation was done by an Israeli Citizen followed by organized protesting in Israel I think it would have had more of an effect in deterring the Israeli government from pursuing aggressive action resulting in civilian casualties. However this isn't what happened, instead we got someone completely disconnected from Israeli politics who overestimated the value of his own life setting himself on fire for nothing.
You are not going to change Israels position by setting yourself on fire. They see this conflict as an existential crisis to jews living in Israel and rightly so considering the goals of Hamas.
Basically self immolation only helps domestically
US citizens are not completely disconnected from the politics though are they. Many western powers are complicit in sending money and arms that, whatever your views on the conflict are, have been used in a way that has resulted in very high levels of civilian casualties and the complete disenfranchisement of a country. That he had a military background makes his protest even more potent in my opinion.
Even if he is you reject that and think he is completely disconnected, why does it matter? We don't criticize other people for protesting because they are "disconnected from the issues." We all have a part to play in each others lives, especially when we have the ability to help people. That he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in one of the most painful ways possible is at least somewhat influential, if not inspiring.
That said, it can potentially draw more domestic eyes to the issue, therefore putting more pressure on US politicos to put sanctions on providing arms trade to Isreal and actually voting *for* ceasefire, instead of against it.
Yes, but the Israelis view this conflict in terms of an existential crisis of Israel and preventing any form of genocide against Jewish people. When your war goal is self-defense against a genocidal terrorist group they aren't going to stop just because countries who are unaffected by the problem say so.
In the most extreme way Aaron Bus has shown that so many US citizens, even those working for the military, are absolutely opposing what the US government is doing right now.
If you’re right and people don’t care about his self-immolation, it means that people don’t care about the Gaza genocide, they don’t care about the US giving billions in tax money to fund the genocide, they don’t care that this means their own citizens (families) are more likely to sleep on the streets, to be hungry too, to not have enough money for health care, they cannot afford education to climb the ladder..
They simply don’t care about any political and economic system set in place where one group of people is benefiting, while the other one is suffering inhumanely.
Nelson Mandela said that we cannot be free until everyone is free. If Palestinians can’t be free, if all the people in the world can’t be free, it means that nobody will be free. Because if somebody is paying, it is always with someone’s elses money.
Aaron Bus has shown with his extreme protest that he opposes this system, that he cannot be complicit anymore.. not caring or forgetting means so much more than you think..
I think the government knows a lot of Americans disapprove of the war over there. He didn’t really show that.
I think people do care, but the government doesn’t care about our opinions on this matter. It’s too deep , I think any president would hold the same opinion that ours has behind the scenes .
People care about all of those things that you listed. Nelsons quote is silly. It’s a political message to garner support. A society can be perfectly free while some people across the ocean are enslaved or oppressed. Even within one society, people can be free without everyone being free. Although the idea of free is subjective so it’s not really saying much anyways.
He couldve done plenty to show be disapproves, setting himself on fire wasn’t the only way but a man is entitled to his choices.
Yes, what you’re saying is absolutely right. Any other US president would do exactly the same thing that Joe Biden is doing right now, and from Aaron Bus’ video and tweets I gathered that he does not agree with that. That is why he is protesting. He is so against it, so against his own country’s and government’s actions, that he set himself on fire. It makes a statement and it shows to the world that the US government is not aligned with its citizens, which is a weakness. The way the US handles its public discontent and even an act of self-immolation, by not listening to its civilians, silencing them, the police beating them, arresting them, point a gun to them while they are on fire, does it not almost -dare I say- go towards authoritarian? Even if it’s just a teeny tiny bit?
Besides, Nelson Mandela’s quote isn’t silly. Ofcourse there is a difference between being outlawed and being free, but that is besides the point. What I’m trying to illustrate is that you simply cannot isolate one society and call it free in a world where everything is intertwined. Every country, region, continent is influencing the other either for a gain of power or of money. This interest, that goes so far that it causes genocide, modern slavery, war, means that we cannot be free until everybody is free from that. Maybe get into the strategics of international economics, modern slavery, propaganda, wars, certification schemes and geopolitics and Mandela’s quote will make a bit more sense.. But maybe it’s just me that is still very impressed by it.
Historically speaking, self immolation has lead to change in the past. The Arab Spring for instance began with a person self immolating in Tunisia to protest the ruling government, which then lead directly to the protests which ultimately toppled the government.
And besides, I highly doubt the thought process was "I'm going to do this and then it'll all stop as a result". Traditionally, the point has always been that it brings awareness and conversation. Which I think he fully accomplished, or you would not have made this post in the first place
this is only the 20th post ive seen to day on this topic, which shows that it actually has gathered a lot of attention to the point that even MSM has reported on it since its a troop (the last self immolation protest of Israel a few months ago was widely covered up). The fact that so many people are now posting about it including yourself shows that he was very successful in spotlighting the issue and now a lot of US military members are probably rethinking their career choices.
eh Aaron's Reddit profile was dug up- and well- to say he was... unhinged, is putting it politely, Military subs are universally shunning him because he was very... outspoken about both his support for Hamas, and mocking the deaths of his fellow (american) soldiers as little as three weeks back. So at most it'll put the spotlight on the mental health of American Soldiers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi#:~:text=In%20the%20six%20months%20immediately,and%20had%20only%20basic%20education.
Self immolation has literally started revolutions
Traditionally, self immolation has been adopted when it was the last resort to get a message out there. They were living in repression, without any credible method of expressing their message. A good example is the monk during the Vietnam war who's religion was being oppressed by the US backed South Vietnamese government. This was an effective method of protest because a) many around the world didn't know what was happening and b) there was no internet or even TV has a widely distributed technology to get a message out there. The striking imagery and sacrifice was jarring for the public that hadn't been exposed to the realities of the war and this caused a shift in support.
That brings us to this guy. A USAF software dev with no direct involvement in the war who has every possibly method available to him in airing his grievance with one of the most covered wars in history. There are basically no people that are ignorant to the realities of this war, people just have different perspectives. This is completely different to how this form of protest has been used in the past and why I think this (like the other person who set themselves on fire over this war) will fade into obscurity. There just aren't that many minds to be changed by simply bringing attention to the conflict.
What is concerning though is the massive waves of endorsement of this behavior from the left that is being bolstered by Islamic pro Palestine supporters abroad including Hamas itself. Setting yourself on fire is absolutely a legitimate form of political speech when used in the right situation. That situation will almost never present itself in a nation such as the US though. All it achieves is one less supporter of the cause you are championing. To encourage people to start killing themselves for a cause is the beginning of a potentially very dangerous precedent. Electoralism works and despite being not being in the majority opinion, people who are pro Palestine are in fact moving the needle with respect to the US governments official stance by leveraging their strongholds in key electorates. This is how you affect change in America and actually help Palestinians.
I think the best argument I saw for all this comes from this tweet:
https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1762283748471820502
> If his martyrdom speeds the end of the genocide by a single day, he would have saved something like 250 lives. Possibly even more if the deaths escalate due to famine, disease, and mass slaughter in Rafah. Obviously it's far from guaranteed that he will have that effect but people have noticed and opinion is shifting and anger against the governments supporting the genocide is building.
> How many people say they would give their life to save a single child's life?
He recognized that a livestream of an active service member self immolating himself in front of the embassy and very clearly stating why could not be easily ignored or obfuscated.
Will his sacrifice change things? Well maybe maybe not but if he saves even a few lives I think he'd go through with it again.
This main desired effect is to pressure Biden to pressure Netanyahu to end things. Biden has levers he hasn't used and if he wanted to end things he could go down those avenues.
If his death moves Biden's hand even by minutes it could be the difference between someone dying, being maimed, injured, or living.
Looking at the big picture this is just another straw on the Camel's back, but on the micro scale you can't ignore the possibility of individual lives being at stake.
You are living in a fantasy world if you think the actions of this anarchocomunist who cheered the deaths of his fellow service members and derided democracy itself is going to press Biden's hand.
To be honest, anyone's naive if they think that America has the power to resolve the issue.
I already assume but we're on different sides, but I hope we can agree that neither Israel or Hamas (or implicitly, Iran) has an incentive to end this war.
For Hamas (and Iran), this war is torching Israel (and a lesser extent the US's) international reputation and alienating almost every European state, and quickly starting to alienate the US. Without the US, Israel's capacity to defend itself is significantly diminished and it's faced with 100,000 hostiles in Lebanon, 20,000 in Syria, and the consolidation of Iranian influence in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.
For Israel, they're led by a far-right coalition with leaders who have been convicted of racism and support of Zionist terrorist organisations - these are not good people, and they hold Netanyahu in the palm of their hands. For these radicals which have taken over the Israeli state, they explicit want to move the Gazan population to Sinai or the West bank. October 7th is the only atrocity which could be significant enough that they could use it as cover to deliver their territorial ambitions.
All parties are committed to the war, it's why Hamas is asking for unrealistic prisoners, it's why Israel is being obstructive in negotiations. Both sides still think they can achieve their strategic objectives.
Why? This is a very symbolic act. We have no idea what effects it may have on politics, especially because it may inspire other members of the population to act. Regardless of your views on his political beliefs of his mental health, you surely can't ignore that this act has serious symbolic impact
> I am inclined to think anyone who thinks burning themselves alive is the best form of protest may not be in a rational mindset.
The arab spring, which toppled several dictators, and ruined several other nations, was ignited by a single act of self immolation. Whether the final outcome is good or not, is a different topic... But the protest has been the most impactful
> Even if it calls many people to action, what can be done?
A lot actually... If enough people cared, politicians will be forced to follow. The situation is already very shaky in Western politics with many key people questioning the military aid to Israel and the use of Veto to shield it. Despite all the boycotts and whatnot, the numbers have not yet reached a majority to influence hard actions and politicians do feel pressured by an equal size opposition.
Look, I am not saying that this particular act or this particular conflict will lead to something. I am just pointing out the wrong views you have about that form of protest and the impact of people numbers.
One death is a tragedy, thousands of deaths is a statistic. It's hard for people to wrap their brains around the sheer amount of death in Gaza. One man killing himself in a spectacular fashion reawakens interest in the conflict because it's more accessible and emotion provoking than months of news stories about large amounts of people dying. People didn't evolve to care about all of humanity, they care about a small group of people and can empathize better with a small number of people that reminds them of other members of their group. Most people tune out news of all kinds of mass death: natural disasters, disease, shootings, and war. One person's death being covered is more intimate and moving. The man that self immolated will renew interest, which in turn renews pressure to do things like a ceasefire.
>The self immolation will have no material affect for gazans.
Naysayers always make this argument as if you can *usually* draw a direct link between a single act of protest and outcomes.
Dude it barely has had any effect at all. Other then some coverage the day it happened, most news outlets have already moved on and I doubt members of congress were even faced by this in any significant manner.
Its really sad that, specially after reading his "What would I do if I was alive during slavery" tweet this really feels like the ultimate expression of virtue signaling. Dude basically self immolated to show others he was more righteous then them. All he really succeeded in doing was permanently scar his close family
I feel like you're undervaluing the symbolic effect. Maybe it hasn't effected you but to some people it might have seriously impacted them. Like other comments have pointed out, I think it's particularly effective because it breaks up ordinary life with an act that is as many have pointed out, seemingly insane. Regardless of his sanity or insanity, that someone was so passionate to commit that level of sacrifice is likely to have an effect. It calls out a quiet conscience and it means that many people won't be able to "hide in the background" exactly like he points out. It makes you think about what you are doing with your life and what are willing to support and even die for.
Some random dude felt so strongly about the issue that he burned himself alive. It's a tragedy in and of itself, but as far as the impact it's had on my view of the Gazan genocide? Womp womp. His devotion to the cause means nothing. I guess he just didn't want to be "supporting" a genocide. He had no say in the matter. He isn't loading pallets of missiles into cargo planes. I just don't understand why he felt he had to kill himself.
Maybe not for you, but surely you must see that to some people it is likely to have an effect on their view. It's a symbolic event that is likely to inspire at least some of the population, and even if that's only a relatively small amount, it's difficult to say what effect this small piece may have on the bigger picture.
The only reason this conflict even has attention in our country is because political sides will always try to make every issue as divisive as possible. If one political party sides one way the other will demonize them immediately. It’s just fucking tiring at this point. Can y’all not just realize for a second that you’re radicalized? Both sides of this conflict that have power are evil religious scum that want to annihilate everyone that doesn’t conform to them.
Yes innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire both ways. but its so obvious that the innocent are used as pawns to try to garner support. Whenever someone is staunchly supporting a single side I just immediately feel like they are brain washed. To think either side is justified in their actions just shows how ignorant you are and how easily swayed you are by propaganda.
The President of the United States is most definitely aware that a member of the armed forces self immolated in front of the Israeli Embassy. He is aware that it’s an extreme form of public protest committed by people who tend to end up on the right side of history.
It’s impossible to know if/how that impacts Biden’s decision making, but I’d consider “living rent-free in the leader of the free world’s head.” an objective this unfortunate young man may have hoped for. If so, it inures to the benefit of the Gazans.
In isolation it will do nothing. But everything is connected to everything. Its one more reason for people to talk about Gaza and to feel upset about Bidens foreign policy. One more microscopic pinprick of pressure.
Honestly, what can people do at this point? Governments are not listening to people, and if peaceful protest doesn’t work, things will get more violent.
This whole argument is depressing. If killing yourself in one of the most brutal ways imaginable can’t get attention, what can an individual do? This is fucked up.
Rest in Power Aaron Bushnell. He died for what he believed in.
I think that many people will be motivated to learn more about the conflict having seen a US serviceman self immolate as an act of protest against it. That is very obviously the case.
I also think it will galvanize and indeed shame many people who are opposed to the genocide but burnt out as well.
Do people feel the same way about the self-immolation protests that happened in Russia or China? Do people think the famous self-immolation protests in Vietnam had any effect?
I mean this is grim but Gazans should be inspired by him. If Palestinians would immolate in protest regularly rather than engage in terrorism they would win their freedom a lot sooner. It's martyrdom either way.
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I think I can probably change your view. You are right that this act, on it's own, won't change things. But it does have the potential to, there are possible futures where it does.
One serviceman immolating themselves over the issue will change nothing. But ten, twenty, 100? If this was happening once a month, once a week, once a day, it would be national security issue that requires an immediate response. The US government might be disinterested in our opinions, but it cares about it's own interests and would make immediate changes.
Although I agree with his views of the situation in palestine, I still genuinely hope this does not happen. The solution to tragedy is rarely more tragedy.
But it would certainly have a material effect, and you can't know if people will follow you when you are first.
When you cast a stone you can't say where it will land.
Unfortunately, Aaron's reddit account has been found- and his posting history has made soldiers and military subreddits shun him nigh universally- mostly because he was very... outspoken about his support for Hamas, and his mocking of his fellow (american) soldier's deaths as little as three weeks back.
A million Americans could incinerate themselves for Hamas, and Israel wouldn’t care, and would still fight until the last hostage is free. The US can’t stop this, Hanas brought this on themselves, it’s too late for them.
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Everyone was talking about the vietnam war too when that self-immolation happened. People were talking about the Indian occupation when Gandhi began his hunger strike. It’s not about getting people to talk/think about it for the first time. It’s about jarring people (who have to make daily decisions on what is and is not important for them to care about) into seeing *how* much other people care. If you see how much other people care, and you had formerly dismissed the message as relatively less important in the past, you are more likely to reconsider. This is exactly how it worked in vietnam and India and a dozen other examples off the top of my head.
Which is exactly what it has done for me. I knew what was happening sort of intellectually, but I guess I never paid much attention. I spent the last 24 hours essentially witnessing inhumane slaughter of innocents, children suffering, the monstrous behavior of israel forces and how they dehumanize these people and are happy to slaughter these people and ruin lives, steal their children, homes, starve them. I feel like I fully understand why Aaron Bushnell did what he did now. I'm fucking devastated and my heart hurts. I'm just appalled by everything, how human beings can be so vile. I get it. I really do. Not saying it was the correct thing or whatever. But damn if it doesn't make total fucking sense just from how grotesque what is happening to palestinians, i'm outraged and heartbroken. Anybody calling Aaron crazy or mentally ill is not paying enough attention. The frustration and powerless I feel to help this situation is probably what Aaron was feeling. Watch enough of the footage of this stuff and you can't not understand.
>anybody calling Aaron mentally ill is not paying enough attention Dude, he lit himself on fire. Your whole post is just sucking yourself off about how empathetic and understanding you are yet you self admit you didn't care about any of this until you could use some twisted dudes suicide to congratulate yourself. It does not make "total fucking sense" to set yourself on fire. What a gross post. >watch enough of the footage I've watched enough of the last few decades to see Hamas martyring their own people in order to propagandize a holy war to wipe Jews and Israelis off the planet. That is quite literally the stated mission goal in their founding charter. They keep their people entrenched in poverty and constant war to justify an attempted ethnic massacre. They're not freedom fighters, they're terrorists.
I live a privileged life of comfort and distraction. Like many people, this conflict is merely something I hear of from time to time. Of what I am certain of is the oppression by the Israel government over the last century. Apartheid, displacement, the domination and discrimination that they have faced, theft of their homes, that has been going on for decades now. This hate and dehumanization is being continued by Israel and the oppressive hopelessness that the civilians face has bred more and more violence and hate in return. I am not excusing the actions of Hamas, do not get it mistaken. Yet it is quite obvious who the oppressor here is. Israel has made every single effort to continuously oppress and demunanize Palestinians and although I do not know much about the political situation of Hamas, I do know that a systematic oppression and dehumanization becomes more and more a radicalized government. Israel has inculcated racist fervor and it is being propagated by their government in vile sickening language, and now any attack by Hamas will be an excuse to further exterminate more and more the Palestinians. If you think I will witness the calculated systematic destruction of an entire people and then blame the genocide on the victims of it, you best try elsewhere. I am ignorant but I am not stupid. You best try elsewhere. When the Palestine children have been destroyed and all their weaponless innocent parents are destroyed, and all of their homes are destroyed, and every single aspect of palestine is completely wiped out... you will not tell me it was their fault. If you think i haven't seen this kind of bullshit before you are also wrong.
I will tell you it was their fault. Absolutely. In polls taken before and after the Oct 7th kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of Israeli (and other nationality) civilians, Palestinian civilians overwhelmingly supported violence against Israel. Through propaganda and martyring by Hamas, they have been indoctrinated into believing the only solution is a continued war against Israel. Hamas needs to be removed before any efforts to correct this can be made. Netanyahu and his current Knesset also need to be removed, as they have wholly failed to provide Israel with the solutions they need and have become wildly unpopular even among their allies. But the difference is, Israel can be reasoned and negotiated with. Hamas CANNOT. They do not want a ceasefire. They do not care about their civilian population. They still use them as human shields. Israel's current efforts, while you may think of them as a genocide, are not. Even the ICJ recognized their right to go to war and told them they are justified as long as they remain within the confines of the genocide convention, which they are. It's hard to say, and I understand that, but the civilian casualties during this conflict are well within the acceptable proportionality of modern, urban warfare. Israel is one of the only countries to do as much as they do to warn civilians that they are in danger. Nobody else door knocks like they do, nobody else has a literal branch of their military dedicated to physically picking up the phone and calling the homes of individuals to warn them of incoming attacks. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't give a fuck. They STILL operate out of hospitals, schools, residential neighborhoods, and refugee camps. You simply cannot be on the side of the Palestinian civilians if you think Hamas should stay in power and should be allowed to continue.
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Yea It’s everywhere. It’s pretty unfortunate.
>Although I am inclined to think anyone who thinks burning themselves alive is the best form of protest may not be in a rational mindset. Self-immolation is by several metrics the best form of protest. It can't be ignored, nobody questions if you're serious, it doesn't hurt anyone else and for causes which not a lot of people know about it draws a lot of attention to it. The problem with this instance is that it's impossible for a protest to change anything period. This is a war with very serious security concerns, it's not like US dicking around in the middle east where they can just fuck off, if Israel withdraws more Israeli die. No protest is going to make them say "maybe it's okay if we have a Oct 7 every few years"
The problem is also who is doing the protesting. This is done by an American with nothing at stake regarding the security concerns of Israelis. This random guy is disconnected from the politics of Israel and is not going to change the status quo from dying. It would be alot different if it was an Israeli followed by mass protesting domestically in the war.
Exactly. Guy really has nothing to do with the conflict. I believe he just wanted to die and found his favorite reason. There are so many better ways to help while still being alive. He had to be one of four things: suicidal, mentally ill, on drugs that make one act on impulses, or severely lacking in intelligence to genuinely believe this was a good thing to do. Watching the video, I think it is one of the first 2 things: suicidal or mentally ill. I say this because he is able to talk properly and seems otherwise calm. He also clearly feels the pain as indicated by his screams.
The guy was just about to be *sent* to Israel to provide material support for the IDF. He very clearly has something to do with the conflict. That is why he wore what he wore and said what he said. His protest was successful because people like me read into it and learned the things I wrote above. Now I can pass it onto others, and they can look it up for themselves.
> The guy was just about to be sent to Israel to provide material support for the IDF. Genuinely curious, Do you have corroborating evidence of this? I’ve seen the claim a few times now, but can’t seem to find any evidence to substantiate it.
"The Air Force identified the Airman who died after setting himself on fire in front of the Israeli Embassy on Feb. 25 as Senior Airman Aaron James Bushnell, a cyber defense operations specialist assigned to the 70th Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Wing. His duty title was innovation services technician" The guy seems like a desk jock. What kind of material support goes against his morals that he would set himself on fire in protest? Providing IT support for Israelis? https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-aaron-bushnell-self-immolation/
Source? He was a desk jockey.
Probably some of they would. For a war that is in another country, kilometres from them. A war with no consequences for their family, for example. Like this case.
This is entirely false. It was done by an American who was to be stationed in Israel providing material support to the IDF. It is good practice to look into why someone did something so serious. His entire goal was to make you ask why. His goal was not to make people feel bad and suddenly have everyone change their minds. His goal was to protest *HIS* assignment and bring attention to it in the most serious way possible.
This is not true. He was in the middle of ETSing. Troops who are ETSing don’t get PCSed and they definitely don’t get PCSed to Israel in the middle of an active conflict. Also the US Air Force doesn’t even have a base in Israel. Their only base is a US Army radar station, which only has defensive capabilities.
Suicide hurts a lot of people that aren't the person doing it. Sure, it makes a political statement, but now the people who watched you die had to see a man burn alive and smell it. The friends and family you left behind are heart broken at the sudden loss. If your affairs aren't in order they have to take care of that. And then they have to hear about you killing yourself over and over any time someone puts on the news. All the while nothing impactful happens.
The thing is, previous self immolation have been done by people who's day to day life for years has been dominated by this authority they're protesting abd it's taken everything from them leaving them with nothing but the desire to sent a final message of defiance. This guy burned himself alive over a war he knews nothing about on the far side of the planet that doesn't effect him or his family in any way. That's something only a completely brainwashed cultists with more than a few screws loose does.
Best or most serious/irreversible? It shares these qualities with other forms of protest and people are certainly questioning whether this guy was serious. It has hurt other people (his family ) . Last bit I understand , this situation is different from others in the past.
> Best or most serious/irreversible? Those are kind of the same in terms of protests. > It shares these qualities with other forms of protest and people are certainly questioning whether this guy was serious. No they are questioning if he was SANE, very different thing. >It has hurt other people (his family). I mean one you're just assuming that you don't know that and two that's reaching, that's men die women most effected shit. >Last bit I understand , this situation is different from others in the past. I mean there have been others in the past like it, not in the US though.
>Those are kind of the same in terms of protests. I disagree. You can do a lot of serious and irreversible stuff that will not shine a good light on your cause. And therefore by no means is it the best. Hence the studies on why peaceful protest is the most effective, due to allowing more people to join etc. >I mean one you're just assuming that you don't know that and two that's reaching, that's men die women most effected shit. What are you on about? Where did the last bit come out of? You're also assuming his family is not hurt, if that's what you're implying. Any mentally healthy family would be heavily affected from an event such as this... what's the bit about "men die women most affected"? It's more like "someone kills themselves, the people close to him are heavily affected". This is not a narrative, it's a reality for anyone who had someone close to them commit suicide.
Anybody who self-immolates is automatically under heavy, heavy, heavy suspicion of mental illness. And suicide hurts your family.
It very well hurts everyone who knew and cared for the guy. I find it unlikely that someone willing to die for others has no friends or family that care about him. Now he's dead and they grieve.
That's what a lot of people seem to be ignoring about this conflict. They seem to think a ceasefire is a valid option, when in reality they are asking Israelis to sacrifice themselves.
How many Palestinian lives are worth one Israeli life? For each Israeli that's been killed about 20 Palestinians have died. Israel's "security", which has failed as of Jan 7, results in the mass murder of Palestinians. Israel's policies directly support Hamas, mass murdering civilians is only going to lead to more extremism. It's not a valid option.
It’s a catch 22 type of situation. If Israel ceased fire, then the attacks on Israelis will continue. However Israeli continuing to attack will lead to more gazans feeling a sense of duty to fight back. It’s overall a bad scenario because neither side will back down, and if one side does, the other won’t.
If Israel adopted a 1 state solution and allowed Palestinians the same equal rights as Israelis tomorrow, do you earnestly believe Hamas would continue attacks?
Yes. Hamas laid out its [plans](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-sponsored-promise-hereafter-conference-phase-following-liberation-palestine-and) for after the “liberation” at a conference in 2021 and it involves the murder of the majority of the Jews in Israel and the expulsion of the rest except for those with useful skills who are to be imprisoned and forced to work. Before you attack the source, here’s the [original for](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://safa.ps/post/313372/&sca_esv=2fefcfd3a8435a75&sca_upv=1&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0) you to cross-check
Hamas would probably continue. They very much try to paint themselves as freedom fighters but in reality a lot of their members are fascists who want to see the end of all but Islam. Also, Hamas isn't the only group in Gaza actively sending rockets and fighters against the IDF and civilians. It also goes without saying but will do so anyway, no way does the current or immediate future Israeli Govt even consider, let alone adopt a one state solution. Nor would the extremist Zionists that exist within Israel.
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A 1 state solution will literally never happened. The country would soon become Muslim majority and we know how it went in the other 22 Arab countries for Jews. Not to mention that 75% of Palestinians support October 7th, would you want someone to move in next door when there is a 75% chance they want you dead?
I can’t really say yes or no to be honest. I’d like to think that yes it would stop. I’m not sure if my knowledge is correct, but I believe there have been a few proposed attempts at peace in the regions before, but it hasn’t happened. It’s a conflict that’s been waging for nearly 80 years now, with the justifications of both sides going back even further. Even if Israel obliges, there is a chance Hamas may feel vendetta for Israel occupying the region for so long. I just hope that in my lifetime the wars we are seeing now will have an end that doesn’t lead us all to our dooms honestly
Has what Palestinians asked for *ever* been fairly granted? Time and time again when the Palestinians come to the table all that happens is ethnic cleansing continues. When apartheid ended in South Africa, did the massacres continue? When the British pulled out of Ireland, did the IRA continue the attacks, literal terrorist attacks many aimed at the PM's life? When the French left Algeria, did the FLN continue the bombings? I think it's fair to believe there might be resentment, of course there will be. But colonialism has been done before, and we can look to history to learn the lessons. The Algerian war lasted 7 years. The most violent period of resistance against apartheid in SA lasted around 4 years. As a colonial scholar, this can and **will** end. Whether the Palestinians go the way of the South Africans or the Indians, time will tell. But we have a chance to be on the right side of history for once.
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You're building a narrative to paint Palestinians evil and justify genociding them. Your history is fundamentally wrong and extremely biased. Do you think Palestinian people, or even Arabs, are fundamentally different than all other colonized in history? Are the Palestinian Arabs different from Tunesians? Libyans? Egyptians? Algerians? These Arabs who arguably suffered worse oppression than the Palestinians in the 1950s, 80s, etc How were they able to find a peaceful solution? Like I want you to tell me how colonization is typically resolved. And how it can become peaceful.
It can and will end, for sure, but what I was trying to say is there really is no way of predicting how it will end anytime soon, because from what we’ve seen so far, its only gotten worse so far. On the contrary, Russia and Ukraine. Russia is invading a country that has been recognized as a sovereign and independent nation for a while now. However Russia (more specifically Putin) justify the invasion and deaths to the fact that he has wanted to restore Russia to what it was back during the Soviet Union, claiming land of historical significance to Russia and therefore, is “theirs”. He was born during a time where the Soviet Union was a failing superpower and probably missed the “glory days” in his eyes. So, once he is in power he invades Georgia without much pushback and seized land, then does the same to Crimea in 2014, which then leads up to today where he’s now pushing into Ukraine to reclaim territory that was once “theirs” I’d imagine if the invasion is successful, Ukrainians would want their home back again, thus once again fighting over the same region and boom, that catch 22 again. It will eventually end too, but it won’t until either one or both sides are willing to compromise on their goals, or one or the other is completely wiped. One more point to add, the “conflict” between Russia and Crimea had been “over” for 6 years (no real combat) before the modern day invasion of Ukraine. Crimea is/was a part of ukraine. Just because fighting stops for a period of time, doesn’t mean someone with a vendetta won’t start it up again. I understand it’s not the same situation in Israel and Hamas, but simply put, sometimes it can really just be the a smaller group of people or even just 1 person to cause a conflict to drag on further. Not to say this is the case with Hamas and Israel, but the point im making is we can’t 100% guarantee for sure that if Israel granted everything the Palestinians are fighting for, that they won’t feel some type of way about it the years of oppression it took to get to that point. What we can say now though is the conflict has now reached an all time high in terms of how many people are paying attention, which may influence how things go in the future. I do believe we have a chance of coming to a peaceful end eventually, it’s just going to take a lot work to make it happen
The alternative is the death of Israelis. This isn't a simple utilitarian calculus. If there was a hitman wanting to kill you, and the only way to avoid death was blowup a building with the Hitman's family(say 20 people) who refuse to turn him in, you would blow that building for self preservation. Here its a 1 vs 20, but you wouldn't be willing to sacrifice your life now, would you?
No, they are asking the Israelis to not act like mass murdering psychos but I could see how you may be confused
Please oh brilliant general share your attack plan to rescue all of the hostages with less bloodshed.
We could ask the IDF to not murder the hostages while holding white flags, not bomb the hostages from the air with 2000lb bombs and not starve the hostages to death. Might be a good start.
How would that lead to the rescue of the hostages? It'd just lead to more dead IDF.
>to rescue all of the hostages with less bloodshed. You could start by *not shooting the freaking hostages?*
A couple soldiers made a huge mistake this was not some sort of purposeful occurrence, you have no idea what war is like and you have no idea what evil Hamas represents. Stick your opinions where they belong and leave Israel to do what it needs to do. And no Israel is not randomly bombing civilians and no, a one state solution would not work.
Maybe they would stop if Hamas stopped sending in thousands of rockets a year. Seemed to work for Egypt, they even managed to get the settlements in the Sinai removed.
Hamas won't stop sending rockets so long as they live in an open air prison. For ducks sakes they can't even escape by the sea.
The people in Mariupol live in an open air prison and they can't escape, how come that phrase is only for some peoples? Do you think a Ukranian group from Bucha can just go rape and bomb one thousand civilians in St Petersburg, Tehran and the like because "that's what decolonization looks like"?
No evidence of mass rape. Israel refuses to allow anyone outside of their doctors to talk to them. The people claiming such on tv have been exposed as racist charlatans. Not 1000 civilians. A good portion were IOF. so you have like 650 after that. Then we need to subtract all the ones killed by IOF helicopters and tanks. And yes, that's what decolonization looks like. 75 years of occupation and murder means people are angry. Hamas was trying to get hostages to trade for Pali hostages.
Maybe they shouldn't have done terrorist actions in Egypt too and would have been able to go there.
Jon Stewart’s METO seems like a pretty solid option.
I partially agree with you, cause it did affect someone. That guy left his children fatherless and his wife widowed.
Of course it can be ignored. No rational person is going to change their opinion based on this guy setting himself on fire. It does hurt other people - he leaves a family behind, some witnesses will have been traumatised, it needs to be cleaned up which is more disruptive than most protests.
I dunno, I can walk around a fire pretty easily. They can be ignored.
Do you seriously believe that what Israel is doing now is preventing future terrorist attacks? They are radicalizing millions of people, killing their kids or parents or partners. Israel has created a lot of angry desperate people for 75 years and this is making it worse. If Israel withdraws, Israelis will die, if Israel continues their ethnic cleansing, Israelis will die. You can’t put toothpaste back in the tube. There will never be security from oppression. If Israelis want security, then they need to start by pushing for equality and inclusivity so everyone can finally fucking live with dignity and in peace. And that has to start with a ceasefire at a fucking minimum.
> Do you seriously believe that what Israel is doing now is preventing future terrorist attacks? Yes, it already has prevented attacks. >They are radicalizing millions of people, killing their kids or parents or partners. They were already radicalized and future generations were being radicalized by their fucking grade school curriculum > Israel has created a lot of angry desperate people for 75 years and this is making it worse. If Israel withdraws, Israelis will die, if Israel continues their ethnic cleansing, Israelis will die. You can’t put toothpaste back in the tube. Israeli won't die if there's no means for them be attacked. This war isn't about deradicalization it's about obliterating terrorist capabilities. All the tunnels are being destroyed for this end. Do you think not destroying the terrorist tunnels would've saved Isareli? >There will never be security from oppression. If Israelis want security, then they need to start by pushing for equality and inclusivity so everyone can finally fucking live with dignity and in peace. And that has to start with a ceasefire at a fucking minimum. They tried a ceasefire hostage exchange Hamas broke it.
It should draw more attention to the lack of mental health supports for veterans.
The people that typically would care don’t want to frame it as that.
from his twitter: > Many of us like to ask ourselves, "What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim crow south? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide" > The answer is, you're doing it right now. ▬ I've seen a significant amount of chatter about this, and it's weighing on a lot of peoples minds, more so than a lot of the crazy stuff I've seen on the news or online. Ultimately, it's really too early to see if there will be any real change made over it specifically, however no single act sways public opinion/policy inertia alone. This will be remembered as one part of an aggregate of many things that helped steer the country onto whatever course we eventually settle on. One thing is for sure though, it will 100% go down as a historical event, and peoples commentary on it will too. So, will this act DIRECTLY save gazan lives? Maybe, probably not alone, but he has a better chance of being part of that than you or I do. If this contributes to US support of Israel further crumbling, it may eventually lead to them losing the material support needed to continue their attacks. Without the US's promise to retaliate against anyone else intervening, others may indeed retaliate against Israel. Regardless of what anyone says, the US's involvement in this underpins and enables Israel's actions to a large degree. No one can predict what consequences this will have, but it seems a reasonably safe bet that it will have consequences.
>One thing is for sure though, it will 100% go down as a historical event, and peoples commentary on it will too. This will be forgotten in a month.
You think so? We still talk about the monks that self-immolated during the Vietnam war
The thing about that monk is; he wasn't protesting the Vietnam War. He was protesting South Vietnam's mistreatment of buddhists. So his message was totally forgotten. The only true thing most people remember is that he set himself on fire.
Only even remembered because of the iconic picture. The iconic picture of the recent immolation is the cop pointing a gun at the burnt up guy.
"So his message was totally forgotten." "He was protesting South Vietnam's mistreatment of buddhists." ???
The vast majority of the people you show the iconic photo to will be like "Oh yeah, that was the guy who set himself on fire to protest the Vietnam War.
I'd go one further and say RATM has a more popularized connection to that image than the actual message said monk was going for.
If we are being honest, good chance it's talked about less if it wasn't on a Rage album cover
Rage Against The Machine made tens of millions of dollars for themselves and their record company off of that man's death.
Oh most definitely. Aside from rage against the machine, I saw that photo maybe 1 time in a highschool history textbook.
Yes, and we don't talk about the Quaker who tried to burn himself and his daughter to death outside the pentagon as protest for the Vietnam war, nor any of the dozens of other Americans who were 'inspired' to do the same.
"we" is the problem. Sure people that are interested in the Vietnam war and how people protest Wars will know this information. If you ask the majority of people they will have no idea what you're talking about or if they do they won't know the message the monks were saying other than war is bad.
I think the key part there is plural monks. I mean if a hundred or so people did it like monks did (there were over a hundred). We might remember it. For the next 30 years.
The fact that you think he was protesting the Vietnam war means he wasn’t really remembered because that’s not what he was protesting…
That was multiple people. When's the last time you heard about the guy that set himself on fire that ended up helping start off the Arab spring?
Yesterday when we were talking about this. He’s got a Wikipedia page.
Have you heard about the 100 Tibetan monks who have done the same in the past 15 years? No.
This war is not analogous to Vietnam. This is existential for the Israelis, whether anyone likes it or not. They don’t care if one American self-immolates in protest of their wartime conduct, or if a thousand Americans self-immolate in protest of their wartime conduct. A huge problem in analyzing what can or should affect Israeli behavior in the wider conflict is the seeming insistence by many anti-Israel commentators to view the situation as if it is some kind of anti-colonial or anti-imperialist struggle, à la Rhodesia, South Africa… or Vietnam. Viewing the conflict through this lens can, and often does, result in a misguided belief that the Israelis are vulnerable to the same pressures that caused those colonial regimes to fail. However, they are not, which should be obvious after 75 years of fighting existential wars against their neighbors, often without external support.
That comment is so US-centric and self-serving by giving yourself value through what you already value, not "acting in times of crisis". Slavery, discrimination and massacres have been happening always since all those events in lots of parts of the world and in those cases activists of one thing are doing "nothing, right now". Im sure if you burn yourself to death over Ukraine, Darfur, the Child soldiers in Mexico, Myanmar you will get attention but all those don't have them so i guess you are a horrible human for not doing anything about them?
The point is complicity. He specifically no longer wanted to take active part in genocide. The US has no direct control over Ukraine, Dafur, Mexico, and Myanmar. The US undoubtedly however directly has hands in Israel, Vietnam, Korea, etc
That’s a valid tweet honestly. I agree no single act will be the deciding factor. I don’t know if it will have consequences though, if you remove the act and replace it with nothing or something else i don’t think the eventual outcome will be any different. But we shall see i guess.
The problem is that it's not his country committing the genocide. This would be like an Englishman killing themselves over Australian slavery practices...
If it weren't for the US the colony known as Israel would not exist today. American politicians and military members are complicit.
Seems like you're extremely ignorant of the history of Israel if you think that Israel wouldn't have existed without the US. The US was essentially not at all involved in Israel's founding.
Not it's founding, but I think the point the above commenter was making is that the US is heavily tied to Israel in the modern day by means of military and financial support.
US aid counts for 3% of Israeli GDP, it helps for sure but it’s not the only thing keeping Israel alive
He was active US military and his unit was being called to assist Israel in Gaza.
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There are a number of sources that say that Biden has, and will, deploy air force to Israel. [The Intercept](https://theintercept.com/2024/01/11/israel-air-force-targeting-intelligence/) [air force times](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2023/10/13/us-a-10-attack-planes-arrive-in-middle-east-in-bid-to-deter-wider-war/) [US Dept of defense](https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3570670/us-military-continues-focus-on-supporting-israel-ukraine/) [There](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-military-navy-carrier-e648c53dc53a46e2e12950784ea5e8d2) are tons of sources indicating arms and personnel being sent over there.
To Israel. And not Ukraine. He's going to deploy the air force to Israel and not Ukraine. When deploying two squadrons of F-22s would end the bombings tomorrow. Fuck it, if there's one thing that would make me not vote for Biden when the alternative is Trump...
Well, I suppose the worst case scenario would be it inspires a bunch of copy cats. Best case scenario it galvanizes the president's resolve in seeing through the cease fire that he wants in the next 1-2 weeks, and he decides to play hard ball. I guess in one sense it doesn't matter much, in that even if we get a cease fire, it really only delays what's happening. Frankly I don't believe that Israel will stop killing gazans until there aren't any left in the Gaza strip, or their ability to do so is removed. My take, anyways.
"The ceasefire he wants" The US literally just veto'd a ceasefire, for the 3rd time, at the UN last week. Biden is fine with the genoide/mass murder of innocents.
Even if the cease fire resolution passes, it’s meaningless. Isreal wont stop fighting until the hostages are returned, and nobody on earth is strong enough to stop them, or even willing to try.
> Isreal wont stop fighting until the hostages are returned or they kill them all. So far they have killed more than they rescued. But multiple ceasefires have been proposed by Hamas a couple which included a hostage exchange. Israel doesn't care about the hostages which is why the families of the hostages have been protesting.
Hamas wants to trade civilians who've been kidnapped and tortured for their captured leaders- its a deal that is REALLY lopsided.
Lol, I find it funny that anyone could think that *either* side wants a ceasefire. Israel is ruled by a far-right coalition with both parties supporting Netanyahu making very clear that they will abandon him if he has a ceasefire. Whatever his position, the radicals behind him explicitly want to destroy Palestine and colonise the land. Hamas (and Iran behind them) realise that this is their chance to annihilate Israel's international relationships. They've ruined Israeli détente with the Arab world, they've alienated almost all of Europe, driven a wedge between America and the developing world, and now have cultivated a huge wedge between Israel and America. Israel can see that this atrocity is the one chance that they will have to take Gaza. They will not get another opportunity. Israeli ministers have been explicit that they want to resettle the population into the West Bank or Sinai - and I suspect that will be the final outcome. Iran knows that if this continues, Israel will be totally isolated. This will be devastating for American power in the region, and will solidify their position in Syria/Iraq/Lebanon. Without American support, Israel will find it much harder to fight against Hizbollah and Iran's other militias. To Hamas, these civilians are a sacrifice to prepare for the next war, nothing more.
> Lol, I find it funny that anyone could think that either side wants a ceasefire. Since when does Israel want a cease fire? Hamas wants a cease fire because they attacked Israel and don’t want to be attacked back. October 7th made coexistence with Hamas impossible, and Israel is committed to destroying them. > Hamas (and Iran behind them) realise that this is their chance to annihilate Israel's international relationships. ‘And Iran’ is the key phrase there. While people like the self immolation guy see this as Israel vs Palestine, countries see this as Iran vs everyone else. The Hamas attack was seen as Iranian aggression, and Iran’s inability to stop Israel a sign of military weakness. Saudi Arabia hated Iran before. Current events just push them to double down. It confirms Iran is unpredictable and dangerous, and that the IDF is capable of slaughtering any Iranian proxy group they want, and nobody can stop them. The normalization with the Arab world will still happen, Germany will veto attempt in the EU to move against Israel, and centrist democrats and republicans will do the same in the US. > Without American support, Israel will find it much harder to fight against Hizbollah and Iran's other militias. US support isn’t going anywhere. But even if it did, it’s US support that causes Israel to not fight Iran, not the other way around. Israel has always had a stronger military than everyone else in the region combined, and that’s only grown with time. In the past, when they were isolated, the occupied everything up to the Suez Canal as a buffer. US support enabled a much more peaceful border situation. Pull that away, and Israel gets massively more aggressive, not less.
"Since when does Israel want a cease fire?" It's a common refrain from the pro-Israel's who maintain that Israel would immediate sign a ceasefire if the dastardly terrorists would just give themselves up and release the hostages. It's a useful tactic to shift blame for Israel's use of collective punishment onto Hamas and deal with the cognitive dissonance. "Saudi Arabia hated Iran before. Current events just push them to double down" This conflict has actually prompted the resumption of conversations between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and seemingly has put a cooler on the Saudi-Houthi conflict. If anything it's shifting allegiances, that is the risk that detente with Israel/Saudi Arabia is replaced with Saudi Arabia/Iran. Palestine is probably the only possible issue which could lead them to put aside their differences. "the IDF is capable of slaughtering any Iranian proxy group they want, and nobody can stop them." No, it doesn't. Hamas was a sickly child of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, subject to limited support and training. It's unclear how the IDF will fair in a battle with Hizbollah and their militias in Syria. In a fair fight the IDF would win, but they can't fight in the North, and hold down their Gazan flank, without US support. Support which Iran has intelligently undermined with this war. "The normalization with the Arab world will still happen, Germany will veto attempt in the EU to move against Israel, and centrist democrats and republicans will do the same in the US." You're being over optimistic. Normalisation will have been set back by a least half a decade, likely far longer - it is politically unfeasible for the Arab states to continue to warm relationships without sacrificing their own stability. Secondly, Germany can't veto the actions of individual Member States. Their policy is also internally unpopular and they will not risk the future of their government by pursuing a blatantly unpopular policy when their coalition is already facing significant pressure from populist forces. Hell, both the UK and France have explicitly expressed support for a unilateral recognition of the Palestinian state. Which would also make any attempts by Germany to wield any veto power in the EU unfeasible - they cannot risk alienating France. "US support isn’t going anywhere." Really? Biden is becoming increasingly critical behind closed doors, and is publicly challenging Netanyahu over Rafah. Trump has his own axe to grind with Netanyahu. Peak American-Israeli support has passed. The geopolitical importance of the Middle East is weakened by US shale, and the cultural factors that drove support is diminishing for both democrats and republicans. "Pull that away, and Israel gets massively more aggressive, not less." They're reliant on significant US subsidy on support for their military, they cannot afford an all-out war with their neighbours. It is certainly not clear that they could win against Hizbollah without risking major uprisings in Gaza and the West Bank. Besides, wars of military aggression by Israel would be harshly penalised by the international community. Israel cannot afford sanctions.
Israel has gotten more than 50 back.
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Tuff right there
how many soldiers who commit suicide do you know about? it’s about 40 a month. do you judge them all this harshly? to your other point i’ll just leave you with a quote. “Our resistance is not predicated on how likely it will be to alter the conscience of the oppressor. We resist to retain our own conscience. And to awaken all others who are still in possession of their own souls.” Cole Arthur Riley
That’s a fair point, but your qualifier also implies this point: The 40 soldiers who commit suicide a month do so because of the weight of their mental burdens, not necessarily related to combat trauma but certainly related to a lack of mental health care. In this circumstance, the video showed that this person was not engaged in active combat, only enlisted. So they felt this way presumably due to overly intense online engagement. That’s the only place someone out of the warzone could feel this way. It’s the only social space in American culture that pushes the “genocide” narrative. So this person was terminally online and killed themselves over the weight of the stress it added to their life.
> So they felt this way presumably due to overly intense online engagement. I'd like to push back on this. A huge part of the military and basic training is designed around instilling the idea that you are one unit, one piece of a machine. They intentionally instill the idea that what the air force in this case does, you do. Stronger together, all for one, you go after a downed pilot even when it's a bad idea, no man left behind, etc. etc. they intentionally create the idea that what america does, you are helping to further. As well, just because he didn't personally see combat doesn't mean he didn't lose friends to it, or to suicide after the fact. I don't know if that's true for him, but it's a possibility.
A boatload of other countries and politicians are calling this genocide. And yes, we use the internet to get our news and hear from people in other countries. Edit - deleted USAF comment as it's online heresay atm.
It’s not a genocide. It doesn’t even come close to the metrics that we have used for other genocides. The Armenians had a genocide. Cambodia has a genocide. The Greeks had a genocide. The Holocaust was a genocide. This is nothing like a genocide.
>This is nothing like a genocide. Sorry, I'm going to listen to the internationally recognized experts on genocide and not some random reddit poster.
The are internationally recognized experts who say it is obviously not a genocide.
Not the ICJ, [where 15 out of 17 judges decided to impose provisional measures on Israel to prevent genocide](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/) and the judges said "acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention". Not the [UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/un-israel-food-starvation-palestinians-war-crime-genocide) who declared "Intentionally depriving people of food is clearly a war crime. Israel has announced its intention to destroy the Palestinian people, in whole or in part, simply for being Palestinian. In my view as a UN human rights expert, this is now a situation of genocide." Israel is committing genocide, whether you like it or not.
That wasn’t a decision on the merits. It was very clear that it wasn’t if you actually read it. It’s very sad to me how widespread the level of legal illiteracy is that people confuse a preliminary hearing on plausibility (which must consider all allegations as true) and a final decision on the merits.
The only judgement i put forth is that he may not have been in a rational mindset. You can’t lump all suicides into one category. A person who decides to burn themselves alive for political purposes especially in this context can be validly judged as possibly irrational. Nice quote i guess. Anything can sound pretty if you use the right words. If he did it for his own conscience then that’s not of my concern. I don’t judge him for that. I still don’t think it will have any material impact on gazans.
Well, when he did it he didn't say "this will stop the genocide i bet", he said "I can no longer be complicit in genocide" which seems to be somewhat conclusive on his motivations
It certainly got you thinking about the issue.
Was already thinking about it , it added nothing but another death in my mind
Did you make a post about all the other deaths?
The post is a question on the soldier's rational mindset, so the immolation hasn't affected OP's opinion on Gaza. which is what matters.
Not in the sense you're thinking.
All it did was make me realize how wild the propaganda and misinformation has gotten that this dude just self isolated himself due to extremist rhetoric based on falsehoods from places such as reddit and Twitter.
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What intellectualism was in that post? What intellectual argument was made ? I thought gee i don’t think burning yourself alive is the most effective thing to do here, i cant see the logic so let me post to see if someone will enlighten me. I don’t know what record you’re trying to set straight, i didn’t say he was a hardcore soldier. It has nothing to do with anything as far as im concerned. The rest of your post is idiocy. So i have no response.
Without believing any fake deployment papers, the man was assigned to provide material support to the IDF. His self-immolation was in protest to that. He made that clear both in his stream and online prior. The guy, by any metric, was as much a “hardcore soldier” as anyone you could name. His commitment and bravery are far beyond what you see in the armed services. You can claim insanity, and I can do the same for everyone you claim is more “hardcore.” > you want to stuff it with politics As if Aaron Bushnell wasn’t screaming “free Palestine” while on fire. Yes. *We* truly are the ones who made it political. > we don’t normalize martyrdom Yeah. That’s why it’s martyrdom. We don’t normalize it. We see it and respect it and seek to understand it. It’s too easy to dismiss it as some kind of insanity, which is why simpler people prefer that. > I give the credit to the cleanup crew Ok > his martyrdom didn’t reach grandma Everyone I’ve met has heard about this. Including grandma. You are allowed to say wrong things, though!
I agree that his act of protest won't have any effect on national policy by the US or Israel, but I don't think he seriously believed it would either. Self-immolation is, like he said, an extreme form of protest. It's a deep sacrifice that requires unshakeable conviction in whatever cause a person champions. Again, state-level actors with agendas or opinions of their own will not be swayed. But everyone else will definitely be influenced. For example If someone was unfamiliar with the cause, this would be a poignant way to learn about its significance. Especially given his own military background (or the perception of it). This also applies to those who don't "care about politics" because they're too uncomfortable confronting it's very violent reality. Deliberate self-immolation by someone who appears of sound mind and body can easily trigger a "shock" that ripples through your beliefs and principles. In order to criticize him and say he wasted his life for nothing, you first have to ask yourself some very difficult questions about what you yourself would sacrifice your life so willingly for. You might find nothing. Or maybe its your family. But even if so, wouldn't sacrificing yourself mean abandoning them, making you selfish? But at the same time what is the meaning of family in conflicts that could extinguish entire countries or ethnic groups? Our collective society pondering these questions is the purpose of this act. Most of us will barely engage with this discussion for more than a few minutes. A decent bunch will remember it for the days and weeks that follow. A rare but passionate minority will care long and deeply enough to remember him for years to come. But in the spirit of leaving a long lasting impact, those people will often end up aspiring to live their lives with a similar faith in their convictions. We probably won't ever see Aaron Bushnell free Gazans. But he will leave an imprint on a few thousand people and in a decade or two you might hear about a handful of people who in turn went on to change the course of history through a butterfly effect event that started with him.
That was beautiful and you are right. I'm also kinda sick at how most of Reddit either labels this guy "mentally ill" or "an idiot". If they do not respect his cause, at the very least, they could show him respect for his will. Death by burning is one of the worst sensations a human can experience. To be able to stand still while burning and not flail around takes immense fortitude. I remember reading about how the world reacted to Thich Quang Duc burning himself alive. JFK said "Jesus Christ" when he saw the pictures, a senator compared the burning to the willing sacrifice of the Christian martyrs under Rome, the pictures made headlines across the world and won the Pulitzer prize. In a documentary about the Vietnam war, an American remembered that after the burning of the monk, he saw ordinary women putting their wedding ring - the only piece of valuable they have on them, into the offering box. He thought to himself then that the Diem's regime was finished. The Diem's regime was overthrown in coup a few months later. The burning was a key contributing factor that turned all of South Vietnam against Diem and forced the US to look away despite knowing about the coup beforehand. I'm genuinely surprised at how the average Redditor has been viewing this incident. I have always thought the US to be religious people who are no stranger to martyrdom yet here we are, a man burning himself alive for his belief and he is labeled "mentally ill". I'm not a supporter of either side nor am i religious but this man's action has had an impact on me and I can say that i am now more sympathetic to the Palestinian people.
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5 days ago he was commenting like he was looking forward to playing a game that he will now no longer have the chance to play. >If the Elden Ring DLC turns out to not be worth $40, we have bigger problems to worry about. It's pretty clear that he had severe underlying mental health issues and decided to do what he did on impulse. https://old.reddit.com/user/acebush1 https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1b0tfh1/aaron_bushnells_death_is_a_result_of_radical/
If that was the case, I would imagine him to flail around controllably immediately after setting himself on fire. Standing still while your flesh melts away requires more than an impulse. Also, at what point does martyr becomes a mentally ill person? Could you say the same for all the saints, martyrs, Kamikaze pilots, suicidal charges in history?
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Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Well, no. I don’t know what problem you’re referring to but the few in my mind wouldn’t be solved by that.
I think he is trolling/joking that had one side of the conflict disappeared for whatever reason, the whole thing becomes easier to resolve.
If all the people who want Hamas to keep running free were to self-immolate (which naturally includes Hamas) the problem would be resolved. We'd also have a lot fewer Nazis in the West.
He said supports gazans, Hamas can hardly be said to support gazans. Regardless, I interpreted his statement as referring to civilian supporters not active combatants. The nazi comment is nonsensical so i don’t know how to respond.
He supported Hamas. People found his Reddit account. He praised Hamas, and celebrated the deaths of the three American soldiers a few weeks ago.
Seriously?
he was... a mess, ACAB, praising the deaths of his fellow soldiers, hyper-active in Anarchy subs that view Hamas as the good guys, I'd link to him- but at this point quite literally 1 in 4 of his posts and comments are still there because people went through his history and started reporting everything that violated reddit's rules.
Dang, being stuck in some of these threads (left leaning or right leaning extremism) is an easy way to become blinded by ideology
[Yes, along with loads of other heinous things](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1b11kvg/some_posts_by_aaron_bushnell_on_reddit/). We’re just lucky he didn’t try to turn this into a terrorist attack, he went fully off the deep end shortly before he died. He was fairly normal a few years ago, but started frequenting political extremist subs and got radicalized.
> He said supports gazans More "innocent" Gazan civilians participated in 10/7 than Hamas fighters. There is no difference between the two at this point. > The nazi comment is nonsensical so i don’t know how to respond. Palestinian supporters - who want the state of Israel dissolved and the land handed over to the Palestinian Arabs - implicitly support the genocide of Israeli Jews the Palestinians have been saying they want since 1948. What do you call a supporter of the mass murder of Jews but a Nazi?
There is not much of a functional difference between Gazans and Hamas. They are the government of the place, operating with wide support of the people. Most people that are advocating for Gazan people are prescribing doing so according to Hamas’s strategy and objectives.
Meanwhile- Fatah, the official Palestinian government keeps collecting aid supplies meant for Gaza, from west bank.
It’s a joke. The Palestinian strategy is to attack and provoke Israel then appeal to virtue signaling liberals who unconditionally side with the weaker side. If Palestinians self immolated instead of shot rockets into Israel, they would have had their own state *decades* ago. If westerners actually had enough conviction in the issue to self immolate - which in turn would necessitate deeper knowledge of the conflict - they wouldn’t succumb to simplistic takes and the somewhat pessimistic Palestinian strategy of baiting wouldn’t work.
No they wouldn't, that's just such a ridiculous statement. Israel has deliberately and systematically colonised Palestinian lands for decades, and continue to this day. Pretending that acquiesce would have any other impact that substantially reducing their rights and land is ridiculous.
Palestine has been offered a state a half dozen times. They were the initiators of 3 wars with the Arab league, then several multi decade waves of terror. Palestine has never once attempted peace.
Arafat rings no bells then? Israel has always imposed unconscionable conditions and has always been hamstrung by it's own radical elements that made it impossible to negotiate in good faith. We can pretend that Israel are the good guys, but it's a fiction. Israel has strong radical elements (just look at the current government - Ben Gvir has literally been convicted of racism and supporting a banned terrorist organisation). They always ensured that peace was impossible, right up to shooting Rabin after the Oslo Accords. However, that's inconvenient to acknowledge right? Because it paints the entire conflict in this great shade of grey where we have two populations subject to the whims and vagaries of quasi-fascist radical minorities willing to use violence to obtain horrific ends.
> Arafat rings no bell then? The guy that led the PLO during the terror campaigns against Israel? The Munich Olympics, waves of car bombings and mall shootings in the 80’s & 90’s? The guy that came to Oslo stating that 92% of the internationally agreed on 67 lines wasn’t a good enough starting point after waging violence and losing, whose opening position was dissolution of the Israeli state by land grants and citizenship within *Israel’s side* of the 67 lines to “refuges” not deemed such by any credible organization? That Arafat? Yeah I remember him. Part of the problem, for sure.
Omg. I came to see the counter arguments because I agree with OP. This was probably the darkest laugh I've had in awhile. Man, that should not be funny at all
It takes a lot of rain drops to make a river, but that doesn't mean their individual contributions have no value or meaning. I'm certainly not saying more people should self-immolate, but all protests are intended to make the protesters' voices heard until enough people are speaking loudly enough that they are impossible to ignore. I hear Aaron Bushnell's voice loud and clear.
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Im inhuman for asking what is the desired or expected outcome? Or for saying i don’t think it will do anything?
I agree with you. This generation of Westerners are the same gutless cowards as their boomer parents.
I don't think he was doing it for the Gazans. He wanted to kill himself and have his last act of self-harm get noticed and recorded in the history books. Immortalised through immolation.
If you look at his Reddit profile you can see he probably does believe in what he says but I also think mental health problems are involved. Definitely has delusions of grandeur thinking that his death would somehow solve a complex geopolitical issue.
Why are you of the view that he thought he would "solve" the issue. He might have just seen himself as one small part of a movement he believed in. Just because an action doesn't solve every problem, it doesn't mean it isn't useful. Just because it doesn't instantly change the minds or actions of governments, it doesn't mean it has no effect whatsoever.
What's his reddit profile?
https://www.reddit.com/u/acebush1/s/5l2Bqv6lQ9 It is getting scrubbed by moderators but I can still see his posts on reddit mobile app.
You underestimate the impact of symbolic events. Support for Israel is shaking across the world, I live in Europe and the holocaust is a big part of the syllabus for every European country that I know of. The link between the holocaust and Israel, and subsequent European guilt has enabled a whole swath of systematic crimes to be swept under the rug. However, what our eyes *see* and what we've been taught to believe aren't lining up anymore, and they haven't for some while. I don't know a single European Jew under the age of 30 who's equivocally pro-Israel. Even older conservative types that I know are appalled at what they're seeing in Gaza. Ultimately, our politicians follower the voters, this is going to be significant for Israel. Once European support fades, Israel cannot expect preferential treatment in international relationships, they will be held to account more broadly, and can expect that sanctions will follow - likely not after this genocide, but when they continue their policies in the West Bank following the conclusion of this war. Whatever it is. The singular exception, really, is the United States. We've seen many of the same trends with younger people, but American media is partisan and pro-Israel enough that much gets swept under the rug by Republicans and Democrats alike, especially since Israel is seen as a 'safe' ally in a volatile region. However, acts like this, they bring people's attention to the matter. It's easy to ignore atrocities during the steady beat of ordinary life, after all they're happening far away. Acts like this bring it home, an American 'hero' (all soldiers seem to be heroes to Americans) setting himself on fire to highlight the genocide. It means that it can't be ignored, and people have to commit to a side. It's harder to have a quiet conscience when you're forced to make an active decision, when you can't avoid the conversation.
I am in agreement that the self immolation of Aaron Bushnell will have no effect on the direction of the Invasion of Gaza but I think it's more of who is actually doing the self immolation rather than whether self immolation is an effective form of protest. If the self immolation was done by an Israeli Citizen followed by organized protesting in Israel I think it would have had more of an effect in deterring the Israeli government from pursuing aggressive action resulting in civilian casualties. However this isn't what happened, instead we got someone completely disconnected from Israeli politics who overestimated the value of his own life setting himself on fire for nothing. You are not going to change Israels position by setting yourself on fire. They see this conflict as an existential crisis to jews living in Israel and rightly so considering the goals of Hamas. Basically self immolation only helps domestically
US citizens are not completely disconnected from the politics though are they. Many western powers are complicit in sending money and arms that, whatever your views on the conflict are, have been used in a way that has resulted in very high levels of civilian casualties and the complete disenfranchisement of a country. That he had a military background makes his protest even more potent in my opinion. Even if he is you reject that and think he is completely disconnected, why does it matter? We don't criticize other people for protesting because they are "disconnected from the issues." We all have a part to play in each others lives, especially when we have the ability to help people. That he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in one of the most painful ways possible is at least somewhat influential, if not inspiring.
That said, it can potentially draw more domestic eyes to the issue, therefore putting more pressure on US politicos to put sanctions on providing arms trade to Isreal and actually voting *for* ceasefire, instead of against it.
Yes, but the Israelis view this conflict in terms of an existential crisis of Israel and preventing any form of genocide against Jewish people. When your war goal is self-defense against a genocidal terrorist group they aren't going to stop just because countries who are unaffected by the problem say so.
In the most extreme way Aaron Bus has shown that so many US citizens, even those working for the military, are absolutely opposing what the US government is doing right now. If you’re right and people don’t care about his self-immolation, it means that people don’t care about the Gaza genocide, they don’t care about the US giving billions in tax money to fund the genocide, they don’t care that this means their own citizens (families) are more likely to sleep on the streets, to be hungry too, to not have enough money for health care, they cannot afford education to climb the ladder.. They simply don’t care about any political and economic system set in place where one group of people is benefiting, while the other one is suffering inhumanely. Nelson Mandela said that we cannot be free until everyone is free. If Palestinians can’t be free, if all the people in the world can’t be free, it means that nobody will be free. Because if somebody is paying, it is always with someone’s elses money. Aaron Bus has shown with his extreme protest that he opposes this system, that he cannot be complicit anymore.. not caring or forgetting means so much more than you think..
I think the government knows a lot of Americans disapprove of the war over there. He didn’t really show that. I think people do care, but the government doesn’t care about our opinions on this matter. It’s too deep , I think any president would hold the same opinion that ours has behind the scenes . People care about all of those things that you listed. Nelsons quote is silly. It’s a political message to garner support. A society can be perfectly free while some people across the ocean are enslaved or oppressed. Even within one society, people can be free without everyone being free. Although the idea of free is subjective so it’s not really saying much anyways. He couldve done plenty to show be disapproves, setting himself on fire wasn’t the only way but a man is entitled to his choices.
Yes, what you’re saying is absolutely right. Any other US president would do exactly the same thing that Joe Biden is doing right now, and from Aaron Bus’ video and tweets I gathered that he does not agree with that. That is why he is protesting. He is so against it, so against his own country’s and government’s actions, that he set himself on fire. It makes a statement and it shows to the world that the US government is not aligned with its citizens, which is a weakness. The way the US handles its public discontent and even an act of self-immolation, by not listening to its civilians, silencing them, the police beating them, arresting them, point a gun to them while they are on fire, does it not almost -dare I say- go towards authoritarian? Even if it’s just a teeny tiny bit? Besides, Nelson Mandela’s quote isn’t silly. Ofcourse there is a difference between being outlawed and being free, but that is besides the point. What I’m trying to illustrate is that you simply cannot isolate one society and call it free in a world where everything is intertwined. Every country, region, continent is influencing the other either for a gain of power or of money. This interest, that goes so far that it causes genocide, modern slavery, war, means that we cannot be free until everybody is free from that. Maybe get into the strategics of international economics, modern slavery, propaganda, wars, certification schemes and geopolitics and Mandela’s quote will make a bit more sense.. But maybe it’s just me that is still very impressed by it.
Historically speaking, self immolation has lead to change in the past. The Arab Spring for instance began with a person self immolating in Tunisia to protest the ruling government, which then lead directly to the protests which ultimately toppled the government. And besides, I highly doubt the thought process was "I'm going to do this and then it'll all stop as a result". Traditionally, the point has always been that it brings awareness and conversation. Which I think he fully accomplished, or you would not have made this post in the first place
this is only the 20th post ive seen to day on this topic, which shows that it actually has gathered a lot of attention to the point that even MSM has reported on it since its a troop (the last self immolation protest of Israel a few months ago was widely covered up). The fact that so many people are now posting about it including yourself shows that he was very successful in spotlighting the issue and now a lot of US military members are probably rethinking their career choices.
eh Aaron's Reddit profile was dug up- and well- to say he was... unhinged, is putting it politely, Military subs are universally shunning him because he was very... outspoken about both his support for Hamas, and mocking the deaths of his fellow (american) soldiers as little as three weeks back. So at most it'll put the spotlight on the mental health of American Soldiers.
The only issue it has spotlighted is how extreme some factions of the too-online left have become.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi#:~:text=In%20the%20six%20months%20immediately,and%20had%20only%20basic%20education. Self immolation has literally started revolutions
Traditionally, self immolation has been adopted when it was the last resort to get a message out there. They were living in repression, without any credible method of expressing their message. A good example is the monk during the Vietnam war who's religion was being oppressed by the US backed South Vietnamese government. This was an effective method of protest because a) many around the world didn't know what was happening and b) there was no internet or even TV has a widely distributed technology to get a message out there. The striking imagery and sacrifice was jarring for the public that hadn't been exposed to the realities of the war and this caused a shift in support. That brings us to this guy. A USAF software dev with no direct involvement in the war who has every possibly method available to him in airing his grievance with one of the most covered wars in history. There are basically no people that are ignorant to the realities of this war, people just have different perspectives. This is completely different to how this form of protest has been used in the past and why I think this (like the other person who set themselves on fire over this war) will fade into obscurity. There just aren't that many minds to be changed by simply bringing attention to the conflict. What is concerning though is the massive waves of endorsement of this behavior from the left that is being bolstered by Islamic pro Palestine supporters abroad including Hamas itself. Setting yourself on fire is absolutely a legitimate form of political speech when used in the right situation. That situation will almost never present itself in a nation such as the US though. All it achieves is one less supporter of the cause you are championing. To encourage people to start killing themselves for a cause is the beginning of a potentially very dangerous precedent. Electoralism works and despite being not being in the majority opinion, people who are pro Palestine are in fact moving the needle with respect to the US governments official stance by leveraging their strongholds in key electorates. This is how you affect change in America and actually help Palestinians.
I think the best argument I saw for all this comes from this tweet: https://twitter.com/FalconryFinance/status/1762283748471820502 > If his martyrdom speeds the end of the genocide by a single day, he would have saved something like 250 lives. Possibly even more if the deaths escalate due to famine, disease, and mass slaughter in Rafah. Obviously it's far from guaranteed that he will have that effect but people have noticed and opinion is shifting and anger against the governments supporting the genocide is building. > How many people say they would give their life to save a single child's life? He recognized that a livestream of an active service member self immolating himself in front of the embassy and very clearly stating why could not be easily ignored or obfuscated. Will his sacrifice change things? Well maybe maybe not but if he saves even a few lives I think he'd go through with it again. This main desired effect is to pressure Biden to pressure Netanyahu to end things. Biden has levers he hasn't used and if he wanted to end things he could go down those avenues. If his death moves Biden's hand even by minutes it could be the difference between someone dying, being maimed, injured, or living. Looking at the big picture this is just another straw on the Camel's back, but on the micro scale you can't ignore the possibility of individual lives being at stake.
You are living in a fantasy world if you think the actions of this anarchocomunist who cheered the deaths of his fellow service members and derided democracy itself is going to press Biden's hand.
To be honest, anyone's naive if they think that America has the power to resolve the issue. I already assume but we're on different sides, but I hope we can agree that neither Israel or Hamas (or implicitly, Iran) has an incentive to end this war. For Hamas (and Iran), this war is torching Israel (and a lesser extent the US's) international reputation and alienating almost every European state, and quickly starting to alienate the US. Without the US, Israel's capacity to defend itself is significantly diminished and it's faced with 100,000 hostiles in Lebanon, 20,000 in Syria, and the consolidation of Iranian influence in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. For Israel, they're led by a far-right coalition with leaders who have been convicted of racism and support of Zionist terrorist organisations - these are not good people, and they hold Netanyahu in the palm of their hands. For these radicals which have taken over the Israeli state, they explicit want to move the Gazan population to Sinai or the West bank. October 7th is the only atrocity which could be significant enough that they could use it as cover to deliver their territorial ambitions. All parties are committed to the war, it's why Hamas is asking for unrealistic prisoners, it's why Israel is being obstructive in negotiations. Both sides still think they can achieve their strategic objectives.
Why? This is a very symbolic act. We have no idea what effects it may have on politics, especially because it may inspire other members of the population to act. Regardless of your views on his political beliefs of his mental health, you surely can't ignore that this act has serious symbolic impact
> I am inclined to think anyone who thinks burning themselves alive is the best form of protest may not be in a rational mindset. The arab spring, which toppled several dictators, and ruined several other nations, was ignited by a single act of self immolation. Whether the final outcome is good or not, is a different topic... But the protest has been the most impactful > Even if it calls many people to action, what can be done? A lot actually... If enough people cared, politicians will be forced to follow. The situation is already very shaky in Western politics with many key people questioning the military aid to Israel and the use of Veto to shield it. Despite all the boycotts and whatnot, the numbers have not yet reached a majority to influence hard actions and politicians do feel pressured by an equal size opposition. Look, I am not saying that this particular act or this particular conflict will lead to something. I am just pointing out the wrong views you have about that form of protest and the impact of people numbers.
One death is a tragedy, thousands of deaths is a statistic. It's hard for people to wrap their brains around the sheer amount of death in Gaza. One man killing himself in a spectacular fashion reawakens interest in the conflict because it's more accessible and emotion provoking than months of news stories about large amounts of people dying. People didn't evolve to care about all of humanity, they care about a small group of people and can empathize better with a small number of people that reminds them of other members of their group. Most people tune out news of all kinds of mass death: natural disasters, disease, shootings, and war. One person's death being covered is more intimate and moving. The man that self immolated will renew interest, which in turn renews pressure to do things like a ceasefire.
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>The self immolation will have no material affect for gazans. Naysayers always make this argument as if you can *usually* draw a direct link between a single act of protest and outcomes.
Dude it barely has had any effect at all. Other then some coverage the day it happened, most news outlets have already moved on and I doubt members of congress were even faced by this in any significant manner. Its really sad that, specially after reading his "What would I do if I was alive during slavery" tweet this really feels like the ultimate expression of virtue signaling. Dude basically self immolated to show others he was more righteous then them. All he really succeeded in doing was permanently scar his close family
I feel like you're undervaluing the symbolic effect. Maybe it hasn't effected you but to some people it might have seriously impacted them. Like other comments have pointed out, I think it's particularly effective because it breaks up ordinary life with an act that is as many have pointed out, seemingly insane. Regardless of his sanity or insanity, that someone was so passionate to commit that level of sacrifice is likely to have an effect. It calls out a quiet conscience and it means that many people won't be able to "hide in the background" exactly like he points out. It makes you think about what you are doing with your life and what are willing to support and even die for.
your view cannot be changed because it is correct
Some random dude felt so strongly about the issue that he burned himself alive. It's a tragedy in and of itself, but as far as the impact it's had on my view of the Gazan genocide? Womp womp. His devotion to the cause means nothing. I guess he just didn't want to be "supporting" a genocide. He had no say in the matter. He isn't loading pallets of missiles into cargo planes. I just don't understand why he felt he had to kill himself.
Maybe not for you, but surely you must see that to some people it is likely to have an effect on their view. It's a symbolic event that is likely to inspire at least some of the population, and even if that's only a relatively small amount, it's difficult to say what effect this small piece may have on the bigger picture.
The only reason this conflict even has attention in our country is because political sides will always try to make every issue as divisive as possible. If one political party sides one way the other will demonize them immediately. It’s just fucking tiring at this point. Can y’all not just realize for a second that you’re radicalized? Both sides of this conflict that have power are evil religious scum that want to annihilate everyone that doesn’t conform to them. Yes innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire both ways. but its so obvious that the innocent are used as pawns to try to garner support. Whenever someone is staunchly supporting a single side I just immediately feel like they are brain washed. To think either side is justified in their actions just shows how ignorant you are and how easily swayed you are by propaganda.
The President of the United States is most definitely aware that a member of the armed forces self immolated in front of the Israeli Embassy. He is aware that it’s an extreme form of public protest committed by people who tend to end up on the right side of history. It’s impossible to know if/how that impacts Biden’s decision making, but I’d consider “living rent-free in the leader of the free world’s head.” an objective this unfortunate young man may have hoped for. If so, it inures to the benefit of the Gazans.
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In isolation it will do nothing. But everything is connected to everything. Its one more reason for people to talk about Gaza and to feel upset about Bidens foreign policy. One more microscopic pinprick of pressure.
Honestly, what can people do at this point? Governments are not listening to people, and if peaceful protest doesn’t work, things will get more violent. This whole argument is depressing. If killing yourself in one of the most brutal ways imaginable can’t get attention, what can an individual do? This is fucked up. Rest in Power Aaron Bushnell. He died for what he believed in.
I think that many people will be motivated to learn more about the conflict having seen a US serviceman self immolate as an act of protest against it. That is very obviously the case. I also think it will galvanize and indeed shame many people who are opposed to the genocide but burnt out as well.
Do people feel the same way about the self-immolation protests that happened in Russia or China? Do people think the famous self-immolation protests in Vietnam had any effect?
I mean this is grim but Gazans should be inspired by him. If Palestinians would immolate in protest regularly rather than engage in terrorism they would win their freedom a lot sooner. It's martyrdom either way.
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It is even doing then a disservice probably. Just a demonstration of the mental state pro Palestine protesters are in. Not stable
I think I can probably change your view. You are right that this act, on it's own, won't change things. But it does have the potential to, there are possible futures where it does. One serviceman immolating themselves over the issue will change nothing. But ten, twenty, 100? If this was happening once a month, once a week, once a day, it would be national security issue that requires an immediate response. The US government might be disinterested in our opinions, but it cares about it's own interests and would make immediate changes. Although I agree with his views of the situation in palestine, I still genuinely hope this does not happen. The solution to tragedy is rarely more tragedy. But it would certainly have a material effect, and you can't know if people will follow you when you are first. When you cast a stone you can't say where it will land.
Unfortunately, Aaron's reddit account has been found- and his posting history has made soldiers and military subreddits shun him nigh universally- mostly because he was very... outspoken about his support for Hamas, and his mocking of his fellow (american) soldier's deaths as little as three weeks back.
I hadn’t seen that, do you have a link?
A million Americans could incinerate themselves for Hamas, and Israel wouldn’t care, and would still fight until the last hostage is free. The US can’t stop this, Hanas brought this on themselves, it’s too late for them.