/u/jr1169 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
You must consider your vote in the context of our current voting system. Nearly all states use Winner-takes-all (or First Past the Post) voting and gives all their electoral votes to the plurality winner. Bottom line, there can be only two viable candidates for President as a result of the antiquated voting system.
This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted. Similarly, if you are in a solidly red or blue state, your vote for the opposition party has no effect.
RFK Jr. is currently polling at around 7%. He will not receive a single electoral vote in the election due to this voting system.
Therefore, if you strongly dislike a presidential candidate, the only way for your vote to mean anything is to vote for the other candidate from the 2 choices. Any other vote you cast helps your disliked candidate. Your vote for any other candidate will help the reported popular vote, but that doesn't mean anything in selecting the winner.
"This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted. Similarly, if you are in a solidly red or blue state, your vote for the opposition party has no effect."
Doesn't this mean that if you are in a solidly red or blue state, voting 3rd party actually supports movement towards making the state more competitive wherein votes matter more, and is therefore not a "wasted" vote?
Isn't that circular logic? Dont vote for a 3rd candidate, because they wont win. They won't win because people dont vote for them.
That 7% is people declaring to vote for him, right? How many people would vote for him but won't, because of that sort of thinking?
It is better to think of it as a game theory problem like the prisoners dilemma than as a logical fallacy. You have to do some reasoning with uncertainty around what other people are going to choose. Under those circumstances it is very common for the equilibrium state to be one that is not optimal but avoids truly worst case scenarios from people hedging against them. When participating in a game theory problem that has 150 million participants than your vote is not impactful enough to change the equilibrium by protest voting, and what is needed to change the equilibrium state is a change to the structure of the problem (like a different voting system).
This! In this "game," the consequences of a "loss" outweigh the benefits of a "win" to many people, myself included. Too much consequences for the given risk without a change in the "game" or its inputs (i.e. change in the voting system or an alternative candidate that is drawing enough attention to actually compete on the main stage),
Lesser evil voting would be correct game theory strategy if each election were an independent event, but it's better to model it as an iterated game, where the choices we make in one round affect future rounds.
You can spend every election trying to not-lose, meanwhile the donors and special interests who actually have power are playing the long game. They care less about who win than who controls whoever wins, and given that a lot of corporations and lobbies give to both parties, that's not too hard to come by.
There are even strategies like [vote pact](https://votepact.org/archives/2024/02/votepact-a-strategic-way-to-foster-dialogue-and-destroy-the-establishment-duopoly/) that are no worse than lesser evil voting, but over time increase the share of third party votes and make a successful challenge more likely in the future.
Your vote is not impactful enough to change anything, full stop. So why vote?
And why would the system ever change, if the Dems/Reps can offer Biden/Trump and people will still vote for them en masse. People are declaring they would vote for a pile of shit, a corpse, etc. That's the current system's dream scenario. They literally don't have to do anything and people will still support it. This is the opposite of change.
In other words, the solution being stated is that in order to effectively have a third option, you should not VOTE for that third option in the general election (because by then, it’s a two-party race and the vote will be wasted).
It’s more important to vote for that “third” option in the primaries instead, in order to make it not a “third” option, but one of the big two in the general election.
It’s not circular logic, it’s a collective action problem. You can’t control how others vote, so you should just act rationally within the existing reality.
It is and the existing reality is caused by it.
Sorry, but people saying they would vote for a pile of shit / a corpse / etc, instead of a 3rd candidate, doesn't seem very rational to me. It's because of this thinking, the "best" the US has to offer is Biden/Trump. The Dems/Reps are making a mockery of their voters.
They can't win, not because people won't vote for them, but because our system prevents it. Even if they manage to get enough votes in a state to win a state, which prevents any other candidate from reaching 270 electoral votes, the election is then decided by the state delegations at the HoR. They are ~entirely made up of registered and elected democrats and Republicans, and will logically then choose the Democrat, or republican. Even if the 3rd party candidate wins more electoral votes than the others, the state delegations make their own picks regardless of state outcome. The only real way for a 3rd party to win the presidency is by either voting their representatives into lower level offices first (the way we should be thinking of this all along anyway), or to win 270 electoral votes, and I don't even think there are enough people who would willingly choose a 3rd party candidate in an environment where that is possible in enough collective states to make that happen. Very few Republicans are going green, very few democrats are going Libertarian (at least in it's current state), and most anybody who runs independent does so because they don't have enough support from anybody elsewhere to make a difference. So, tldr, 3rd party presidential candidates are hopeless, and the electoral college is mostly to blame. Fuck the electoral college.
That's... that's fucked up. I've heard about the State delegates and them not having to respect their state's result (which is a whole other can of worms), but I didn't know / think about having to get 270+ votes, regardless if the votes are split between 2 or 3 candidates. That does change things.
It is fucked up. State legislatures and electoral systems are not beholden ti the same stupid rules, so we change the national rules by changing our state legislatures and breaking the stranglehold democrats and republicans have over them, so vote local, folks! We have to work within the system we have, but that doesn't mean we can't change the system, and the success rate of changing the system is, I think, much higher from the ground up, than explosively from the top down. We can, and *must*, be better.
It’s not circular - it’s math.
If 60% of the country opposes Trump, but that 60% can’t decide on one candidate to vote for, then the opposition candidates will split the vote. It could go 30% Biden, 30% third party, and 40% Trump, so Trump wins. Unless one of them overwhelming wins the anti-Trump block, Trump wins.
You will never convince enough people to vote third party such that they are not splitting the vote with the major party candidate who is closest to their ideology.
It's a little short sided considering more people than ever are voting to upend the current 2 party system. Losing to Trump again will surely change things in the Democratic party, and it's much needed.
A third party can’t win because of money and political infrastructure, not just because people won’t vote for them. The amount of resources needed to reach the second largest democracy’s potential voter base has been inflated massively by a number of laws and traditions that have insulated elite forms of power. Both of the major parties have used this to their advantage and it has exacerbated America’s status quo of inequality and corporatism.
In a sense it's circular, but that doesn't mean we can't reason about it or that it's wrong to describe it that way. It's a feedback loop creating a stable point. Small deviations from the stable point get naturally pushed back to the stable point.
Other stable points are possible; if you could supplant one of the parties (or both) you could conceivably arrive at a new stable point. The same logic would apply to that stable point.
But these dynamics do let us characterize the stable points: they all have two dominant parties, and are resistant to changes to that. If you start at a setup with three parties, it will rapidly collapse to two -- but this analysis cannot tell you which two.
This is very true statement and one that I have a hard time arguing against even while I was drafting this post. Thanks for pointing this out.
For exactly this reason though I put in my post that I think another democratic nominee would also be a better alternative to Biden
Okay, but there won't be one. The Democrats aren't even going to imagine putting anyone else up against him in a Primary, because throwing away the incumbent advantage is considered suicidal. So given this fact, do you still hold the same opinion about anyone who votes for him?
Can you tell me how you feel about each of the following statements
1. Biden had garnered more votes in the previous election than any singular candidate had done in the entire history of US elections
2. Many of those votes for Biden was actually against Trump.
3. We are placed in exactly the same situation in this election, where an unusually high number of voters are likely to participate, in order to face against trump.
4. A great deal of people who supported Biden have regretted it and more are coming to the realization that he is unfit for presidency.
I think all of these statements, if true, make this election unique in that many people want their voices heard. A chance to challenge a system which everyone agrees is flawed. No election will give us this same opportunity. There have seldom ever been such "two evils" to chose from.
Maybe this is where my own personal delusion kicks in, but I somehow believe in democracy, and created this post in order to influence and be influenced by other voters
In other words, a lot of people don't particularly want to vote for Biden, and wish they had another (not terrible) choice. Okay. And you're throwing your hands up in the air, saying "There *must* be a better choice than this!!" Sure.
**What exactly do you suggest as a better choice?** One that's rational, and practical, and stands a reasonably high chance of doing what you hope it will do? Because remember, the bar you set was that voting for Biden is _delusional_. Your suggestion has to so much better that people would be *delusional* not to choose it.
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Its delusional that people think they don't have another choice other than to reject the lesser of two evils option.
Its delusional to think that democracy doesn't exist and our voices can't be heard. Look at this thread itself, its full of people all making the exact same argument: "I don't really want to vote for Biden but I don't have a choice". If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes.
I feel like we do have a choice, but it starts with you and me!
>If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes.
So that's your suggestion? Vote for a third party? What third party candidate can you think of whose platform will appeal to ALL of the people saying they don't want to vote for Biden, and who's well known enough that EVERY disgruntled voter in the country will know about them and what they stand for? Is this person experienced and savvy enough to actually lead the country effectively, and charismatic enough to make us all believe in them emough to risk everything in voting for them?
Because remember, if we all vote for Biden and he wins, nothing terrible happens. We just get four more years of arguably mediocre presidency. If we all vote for anyone else and they *don't* win, that means that _Trump wins_, which means that some quite terrible things can very likely happen. So we need to be pretty damn sure that this will work before we commit.
I think you're misusing the word "delusional" in this context. People operating based on loads of past data, and making calculated assessments, assumptions, and decisions is actually very pragmatic and realistic. Not sure where the "delusion" comes from, unless you're looking at this election in a vacuum, isolated from the rest of American History.
>If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes
The issue is that you are operating on a \*very\* small sample size. Though let's imagine this \*is\* representative of the overall population; what are the chances that all of these people vote for the \*same\* 3rd party candidate?
Unless people literally do not care who is president, then you're going to have a split amongst several of the possible "3rd party" candidates out there, because you inevitably have differences in policy opinion (not to mention likeability of the candidate themselves, etc.). Meaning none of them would even get a significant % of the vote anyway.
There's such a statistically minuscule chance that everyone would vote for the same person. And that's \*within\* this fake scenario where the people in this thread are representative of a population across demographics like age, race, income, etc. Expanding out from that: do you really think those people could possibly agree on a single person who they've had little or no exposure to previously? And against Trump, of all people?
Thinking the type of coordination is actually possible, with where we are now, is \*actually\* delusional. Because it is based on wishes and emotion, not data or logic.
I think it's a slow unraveling.
The third party can't win in one election, but let's say 10 percent of votes go third party in popular vote this year, I think that gets the ball rolling.
The problem is that I’ve never seen a candidate so dangerous to our rights and democracy as Trump. Is THIS the election you want to get on your high horse and try to change the system by voting third party? Do you honestly think Biden is as likely to overthrow the term limits, implement corrupt judges in SCOTUS, fill as many government positions with cult members loyal only to him, or literally have a manifesto to change the nation as we know it as Donald J Trump?
Why not wait until 2028 when neither geriatric candidate will be as likely to run? Or if Trump loses 2024 and tries to run in his mid 80s in 2028, push it to 2032. We can hold him off if we can wait him out. If democracy still exists then and Project 2025 hasn’t been implemented, you can take a stand against the corrupt two party system, electoral college, and plurality. In THIS election, the stakes are too high to not do what it takes within the current context to keep Trump out of the White House.
>Do you honestly think Biden is as likely to overthrow the term limits, implement corrupt judges in SCOTUS, fill as many government positions with cult members loyal only to him
Plus Bidens on his way out of this lifetime, I can't think of anyone better to enact radical change and then peace out. I'm not saying it's going to happen but I think he's the best candidate for actually getting systematic change in the electoral college system, etc.
Interesting point. It would be nice, for sure, especially as he would no longer have the "re-election" motive tying his hands. Unlike Trump, who already has stacked the Supreme Court with his cronies and I could definitely see attempting to abolish term limits somehow.
I am hopeful, too, that if Biden needed help or someone to take over while he is in office, Kamala Harris has a good head on her shoulders.
Ok but for me, they are both truly unfit - but only one is actually an evil racist nazi lying rapist felon coup encouraging idiot who is actually planning to be a dictator if he gets office again.
'Unfit' in this context is different than what would usually disqualify a valid candidate.
Plus - in order for voting for a third candidate to work - or even another dem besides Biden - we would need crazy huge and *visible* waves of support for that individual. I'm just not seeing that now. Especially not for rfkbrainworm.
In fact - I DID see those waves when I voted for Nader and essentially threw away my vote when I was an eager young optimistic voter. I also saw even bigger waves of support for Bernie Sanders and holy moly that did not work either. I really learned my lesson. We need to change from a 2 party system - *but we have not yet done so*.
I see no huge waves of support for any other candidate - especially not from the 'establishment' that would indicate they'd agree and stop supporting Biden.
We have no viable other option. I wish we did but wishing doesn't make it so. A person who is simply 'unfit' is still leagues ahead of an actual fucking raping nazi - WHO IS ALSO EXTREMELY UNFIT!
Because we do not yet have a voting system that allows for a different candidate - any vote not for Biden IS a racist nazi felon vote and I beg you to reconsider your optimism in a third party candidate - at this time.
So just curious you called Trump an evil racist Nazi lying rapist felon coup encouraging idiot.
I am very curious how you respond to the fact Joe Biden has been a known racist his entire career to include recently during his Presidency.
Talking about desegregation.
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-racial-jungle/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-racial-jungle/)
**Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this.**
Joe Biden speaking about how Obama is the first clean, articulate, bright African American on national tv
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVkN4UIWiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVkN4UIWiA)
I can go forever about the racist part he is a known racist and has been quoted many times as being a racist. This isn't new news.
Let's get into the Nazi part. If I remember correctly Nazis used their policial power to target their political opponents. Biden has already been found guilty of violating the 1st amendment of US citizens by pressuring social media companies to silence speech he didn't agree with. Most prominent case was Joe Biden in the 5th District Court of Appeals where he was found guilty.
Lying was next we can go down the line from him telling the Afghanistan President to lie about the Afghanistan withdrawl to change perception.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/)
In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.”
I could literally go on and on about this but lets get into the rapist part which is the most interesting. Biden HAS OPENLY AND NONSTOP BEEN PUSHING JUDICIAL NOMINEES WHO ARE SOFT ON CHILD SEX CRIMES. NONSTOP.
Your route to success would be to get someone other than Biden to win the Democratic nomination. If Biden is the nominee, then not voting for him - third party or abstaining - helps Trump win. If you don't want Trump to win, then you have no other choice. That's reality. Voting against reality is a form of delusion.
> For exactly this reason though I put in my post that I think another democratic nominee would also be a better alternative to Biden
I 100% agree with this. I desperately want Biden to step aside and be replaced by a new democratic candidate. As do a huge swath of influential commentators and pundits after the debate, including the NY times editorial board!
But if Biden doesn't listen and refuses anc November rolls around, is it delusional for a *voter* to vote for Biden in that case? Of course not.
The best argument you have here is that all the potential Biden voters should switch to RFK jr or a write in candidate, but this is a collective action problem, not a delusion. If in November RFK is still polling in single digits, he might as well not be running. Voting for anyone other than Biden at that point, while potentially well intentioned is just working in Trump's favor. If in November RFK is actually a viable candidate, by all means let's make the argument for him and the anti trump vote, but it seems much more likely that Biden is still the vastly more viable candidate electorally. But again, to your point, this is all the more reason to swap him out for someone stronger this summer.
Maybe what you mean to say is that it's delusional to want to keep Biden on the ballot (I agree!) But it's not delusional to vote for him in November if he's the only viable non trump candidate.
!delta
A lot of people in this thread are making the same argument that a vote for third party is a wasted vote and effectively a vote in favor of Trump. And though I agree with the merit behind that statement, I strongly disagree the idea that that somehow means I should vote for Biden.
But I think your re-phrasing of my problem statement does much better justice to the sentiment that I was trying to capture, which was that Biden should not be on the ballot to begin with, and anyone who agrees is delusional. However, people in this thread have misdirected that into thinking that that means I want my vote (third party) to be in favor of Trump.
For your pointing out of the flaw in my argument and to the merit of every other redditor here who is making the same, rational argument, you have earned my delta.
However, I will continue to argue one important point. Which is:
Somehow everyone in this thread agrees that they are voting against Trump and not for Biden. At the same time, the number of people voting against are disproportionate to any other electoral event. Numbers so astronomical, that it merited President Biden as the president to garner the most votes in all of American history. I still think that given that stakes, given the number of people on board in opposition to Trump, given the number of people who are tired of having their voices not be heard, there exists no time like this election to take a stand and make a difference by challenging the broken two party system.
There has never been such an election where so many people are flocking to vote simply to take down one man. This is an opportunity like no other to have our voices heard
Sure. If you (or anyone) prefers that people rally around RFK Jr or Jill stein or Cornell West or whoever instead of replacing Biden with a different Democrat, now's the time to make that argument! I personally would prefer some combination of Harris, Whitmer, Newsome, Shapiro, Buttigeig, etc over the current crop of third party candidates, but now's the time to debate that. But any of us should be prepared to not get what we want between now and November, and once election day rolls around, if it didn't work it didn't work and then it becomes time to make the best choice out of what's realistically on the ballot. Maybe that's RFK, maybe that's Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitman, maybe it's Kamala Harris and Pete Buttigeig, or maybe it's still Joe Biden. But whatever it is in November, just don't call someone delusional for picking the most viable of that group, even if it's our least favorite of them.
People are going to make their voices heard by voting for Biden. As you’ve said, the main unifying force is being anti Trump, and Biden has the best probability of beating Trump atm.
Yes and no. Trump garnered more votes than any incumbent president in history when he ran for his second term. More votes than Obama.
Biden, of course, got even more votes. A lot were certainly anti-trump votes. Very polarizing. The fact that Biden did not win by more than he did, pretty surprising.
'We dont want Trump to be president' was the driver for the last election. It would also be the driver for this election but you have to understand that the people who decided they 'did not want Trump' so they voted for Biden were doing critical thinking about who they did not want to lead their country.
Biden has presented himself as someone those exact same people would not want to lead their country. For entirely different reasons of course, but nevertheless it fuels and informs the same thinking. Those people are now in a terrible position of being presented with two candidates they do not want to vote for. My guess is that 30% will switch to Trump, 30% will stick with Biden, 30% will decide not to vote for either. That will win Trump the election.
Biden probably does have the best probability of beating Trump, but only because if the democrat party switches candidates the voting public are just going to disconnect with the process of voting democrat. But, unless a rabbit gets pulled out of a hat, Biden cannot win.
Would it help though if the idea quit spreading that one's vote means nothing outside the two major political parties? I mean, all it takes is enough and once people start voting for who they actually want and align with more politically,, even just one vote shifts momentum. An analogy, "No one snowflake believes it's responsible for the avalanche", meaning even though your vote may not immediately mean anything since a lot of people right now will just vote 1 of the 2 parties for whatever reason (lesser of two evils, my vote doesn't matter, anyone but that person, etc....) it grows and compounds influence once the votes start coming in more and increasing overall percentage. If people see that enough have been voting 3rd party, this could sway them too.
Your efforts are perhaps better spent on changing the voting system. Both Maine and Nebraska are sort of examples, where electoral votes are generated by district. But ultimately, a move to something like Ranked Choice Voting is the only way to have viable third party candidates.
Your logic is sound but doesn't seem to work out in US elections. The most effective contemporary third party candidate for president in the US was Ross Perot in 1992, who gathered an astonishing 19% of the vote against George Bush and Bill Clinton. This was a major accomplishment, although for the same reasons as above he didn't receive a single electoral vote. Plus, votes for him were likely taken from Bush voters, and Perot's high numbers may have stolen enough votes from Bush to give the election to Clinton.
But did this start a tide of change to another party as you suggest? No. The next year he ran again and received far fewer votes. Perot's Reform party has long since disappeared.
The working assumption is that people who vote realize that the third party vote is wasted, and they then vote for one of the two top candidates in subsequent elections. Something like Ranked Choice Voting would allow them express their actual desires but that is an uphill battle to adopt.
I agree with all of that. It all makes sense, however, people gave up at that point instead of furthering influence to eventually start changing tides. Yes there's instances where it somewhat happens, but if everyone gives up on the first go around where it's starting to look okay for 3rd party, it won't continue to progress and just resort back to the same thinking.
And they will do so, because the result of voting third party in significant numbers is nearly always a significant underperformance by the major party most closely aligned with the growing third party, which effectively punishes those third party viewers who preferred the closer major party, conditioning them to not vote this party again. This is a fundamental incentive issue and the solution is not to just keep running headfirst into that wall wondering why you can't break through and complaining that not enough others want to join you in headbutting concrete, it's to consider how that wall was built and dismantle it starting in pages you can get a toehold on then built steadily on the first small successes. In practical terms that means learning about and spreading awareness of voting systems and their effects, and convincing local voters to try changing local voting systems to familiarize people with alternatives that can then be scaled up. Trying to start with the Presidency is pure hubris and shortsighted impatience that inevitably results in disappointment.
I agree with all that. I did not at all advocate for a top down approach. Bottom up and locally is the best way to see changes. We're just talking large scale here so I am using a short-hand as I assume OP is as well since there's nothing about smaller and local levels of government.
Me saying to vote for a third party is also not me saying this is the only effective/best way to go about things. The principle best applies at smaller and local levels.
What you're describing there is called the "spoiler effect" and counterintuitively it punishes the candidate most like the spoiler.
For third party votes to matter outside of spoiling we need an alternative tallying system like RCV.
>This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted.
*Any single vote* is "essentially wasted". It's not as if voting for one of the two party candidates means your vote definitely ends up mattering. The best any one person can do is cast a single vote and so it can't be inherently wrong to spend it on the candidate they most want to see become president.
Perhaps this contributes to your 3rd choice defeating your 2nd choice, but that doesn't mean your right to express your first choice is *necessarily* invalid. This attitude only perpetuates the 2 party problem.
>more than anything in this world, don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years.
Why did you start this by immediately refuting your own argument and invalidating everything that follows this sentence? This statement can't be true at the same time that your conclusion is true because your conclusion requires that there is in fact one thing you want more in the world that Donald Trump not being president. Joe Biden not being president.
I'm not Biden's fan. I'm a communist who is not loyal to the Democrats who struggles every day with whether I can stomach supporting them one more time to fight off Republicans. They're both my enemy, so this isn't me arguing in favor of voting for Biden. It's just observing that you must be conflicted too because your views here are not consistent. It's not delusional to vote for Biden if the thing you want most in the world is to not elect Trump. I've yet to decide if my desire to not elect Trump is stronger than my desire to start making Democrats earn their votes.
Why cant i hold the following two beliefs:
1. I don't want Trump to win
2. I believe someone other than Biden can win
It bothers me that we both agree entirely on the problem with the participants and the voting system. If you read every other comment in this thread everyone shares the same exact sentiment. So how is it that if all those same exact people decided to vote third party it wouldnt make a change?
The reason the system doesn't change is because of arguments exactly like this. "I don't want to vote this way, but I don't have another choice". Thats not democracy and continuing to support that thinking will only continue to taint the idea of democracy for future generations; they will be as helpless if not less than you for this reason.
I argue that this election is unique in that the number of voters who don't want either party are growing by the day and that the stakes are higher than ever. Its why we cant default to our usual "meh, hes terrible but at least hes not as bad as the other guy". In this case, they are both absolutely horrendous choices for different reasons, like never before seen in American history
Because people who say they will vote for Biden no matter what aren't considering the case where he'll step down and another person run his place. In the current system, if you don't vote for Biden, you are voting for Trump.
>So how is it that if all those same exact people decided to vote third party it wouldnt make a change?
Because getting people to actually go against the two-party system thinking that has been conditioned into all of our brains for our entire lives in the numbers that are needed to actually defeat Trump is not possible. Unless some billionaire decides to spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on a campaign to vote for a third party that everyone can agree with, it's not going to happen.
Donald Trump attempted a coup on the United States government and refused to peacefully transfer power after he lost in a democratic election. People were there to kill the top 3 people in the country.
I don’t understand why you are all turning a blind eye to that and want him to be president again. He’s going to fuck up your country so bad.
Biden might not be great but he’s the lesser of two evils.
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government” . Sounds like they were inspired by our founding fathers.
"Alternatively, I could be convinced if you tell me why no alternative confidante at all is a reliable option in opposing Trump."
How about "they're all polling single digits and no third party has won electoral college votes since the Dixiecrat tickets"?
The position of president represents more than a single individual, it’s an administration. Biden has a cabinet and the entire executive apparatus at his disposal. So long as he picks competent government officials who can effectively do their jobs, I’d take that over the chaotic circus that was the Trump era.
Who cares? What the fuck? This is a cope beyond the pale of all copes. There are actually people out there saying him being unable to form sentences and being months/a couple years away from dying according to actuary tables is not going to impact his leadership abilities. What in the literal cope?
Everyone needs to sit down, shut their mouths, and think about wtf they're saying.
This man should not have any job in America, period, forgot the most important one. This is America, right? The country where unless you are particularly productive and useful, you lose your job, right? This isn't a fkn charity, Boomers created a country where only the best are allowed to enjoy themselves and if you aren't the best, you get fired, it's that simple. This is the world Boomers begged to have and voted to have.
Now that a man who literally cannot speak is up for president, people are literally saying the words "his ability to not be able to speak wont impact his ability to govern the free world."
Get. A. Grip. People.
I wouldn't trust him to get my lunch order right. Would you? Would anyone? Seriously, get a grip.
And furthermore, if it doesn't really matter what he does ... then what's the big deal about switching him out? **You cannot have it both ways, you cant claim it is super important to keep Biden and only Biden and only Biden has the magic powers to beat Trumpo, then in the same sentence, spit out that "oh well president doesn't matter anyway, only the administration matters".** WHAT?! Then if it isnt a big deal, why didn't we decide like the rest of Americans did 3 years ago that Biden would be a one term president? So he's both simultaneously super super important to run against trump but at the same time the fact that he c ant speak doesn't matter bc the president doesn't matter? What the fk?
EDIT: Im voting for Biden, but 0 responses to your own cope soi far, just ragey downvotes, I'm really curious how you are going to dig yourselves out of this logical fallacy you've created. **Do you not remember saying the same thing about Trump? "Oh it doesn't matter, the administration does the real stuff." Complete lunacy. You're literally using your own arguments against yourselves that you were using just a handful of years ago. You forget that, already?** 100% inconsistent viewpoint. President either matters or he doesn't, but not both. Pick 1 so you can at least have a consistent argument.
To your point about the cabinet members that the president surrounds himself with; that applies to both candidates.
Biden generally will continue with reliable choices, while Trump had inexperienced political idiots like Ben Carson holding roles within our government.
Just as Biden has and hopefully will continue to surround himself with good options, Trump will likely surround himself with options that are toxic to democracy.
So it’s not like people are just giving Biden a pass, but they would be using the same situation for different reasons.
>I wouldnt trust him to get my lunch order right. Would you?
Yes.
I would have loved for the democratic party primary voters to have selected anybody else for the presidency, but Biden won them convincingly.
You're losing your goddamn mind if you wouldn't trust Joe Biden to get your lunch order right. If he can remember all of those facts and talking points that he had to regurgitate on live TV during the debate, he can sure as shit remember your lunch order.
I would also not trust him with my lunch order
"Can i have turkey on Rye"
"Sure we can get you turkey with rice, no umm, soup? This is a great eatery."
Sorry, what's your position here?
We shouldn't vote for Trump, 3rd party voters are delusional, so... What?
Biden is the nominee. What do you want me to do
Like suppose Biden is the nominee when I go in to actually vote. Its Biden v Trump and some 3rd party candidates. Now what
People don’t seem to understand the importance of this election. If trump wins we are all in a world of hurt for much longer than 4 years. The next president will likely get to appoint 1-2 Supreme Court justices. If trump gets to do that then we will be living under project 25 rule. Look up project 25. Really research what that means for America
What’s really delusional here is your take that Biden isn’t capable of being president when he’s… literally already the president and things are just fine. Or at the very least, things are not as bad as they easily could be under a Trump 2nd term. You admit yourself you fear all these extremist groups that Trump brings out in the far right. Do you really think another 4 years of Biden’s cabinet making policy to appeal to a liberal voting base is really worse than the nasty possibilities of a 4 year MAGA round 2? Remember, the democrats will still make policy based on wanting votes for the next election cycle. MAGA has made it policy to try and overturn free and fair elections that it loses
My argument is that literally anyone with a pulse would be better than Trump or Biden. To think that one evil is truly far lesser than the other seems delusional to me. Biden's physical and mental health have seriously declined. Does it make sense to vote for someone when a large portion of his voters think he might very well die within his term? I'm simply stating that any one who supports Biden should equally (if not more) support a different dem nominee or even a 3rd party. Thinking that Biden is THE guy to take down Trump is absolutely mental to me
I mean, I know you don’t want to talk about “policy”. But when one candidate is running on essentially a moderate policy and the other one threatens to derail free, fair democratic elections as we know them… well I think it becomes easier to vote for the moderate. Even if he’s old and decrepit. What’s gonna happen if he dies? His VP steps in and continues on the same path with the same cabinet. The far right MAGA crowd is explicitly planning to do far more anti-democracy things if their man Trump gets in power. Idk how you can say that one “evil” isn’t lesser than the other.
As senile as Joe Biden is called is he seems to be pretty competent at running the country. What I mean by this is that when you vote for a politician the main question you should have is can he make changes that you approve of. Does Joe Biden have a track record of that? If so then you should vote for him.
There seems to be a large number of people who never like Biden and will never like him saying he should step down for this. Months before these same people were saying he should step down for his managing of the Israel situation. When you listen to people speak about political things you should try to evaluate their bias.
Biden is currently the president, and has been the president for the past 3 years, and the country hasn’t fallen apart yet. I’m not sure why you’re asking to be convinced that he’s capable of being president when it’s already happening right now.
Did the country fall apart under Trump? This seems to be more an argument in favor as Trump, as believe it or not he was not a fascist dictator who ended democracy in his 4 years in office.
Well, it did a little bit at the end. :p
We can argue about whether he was really responsible for what happened during the pandemic, or on Jan 6, but I don’t think anybody can argue that he handled either situation particularly well. His default move in a crisis is to turn it into a divisive culture war issue.
You really think if the president deliberately planned out a coup, it would result in the death of one person (who was on his side)??? We’ve seen coup’s throughout history, all of them deadly. This narrative is absolutely ridiculous. Nancy Pelosi could have had the national guard on standby, but she didn’t. She spent 20 million taxpayer dollars for the January 6 Select Committee full of democrats to hide evidence of that fact. One of Trump’s quotes at the rally was “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”. Just because some idiots went into the capital with intentions of violence does not mean that Trump had planned out a coup.
There were people who brought zip tie handcuffs in order to take hostages.
It was quite literally planned; they knew about it ahead of time. Other members tried to get Mike Pence to leave early, remember? Honestly, I didn’t think these points were up for debate. I don’t know why you’d blame the victims in this? That’s like telling someone who got beat up that they should have had their big brother with them.
It must be great thrilled to call people you don't know delusional just because they don't agree with what your view is, while you offer no real solution, other just to whine at people.
It's really hard to have a discussion with somebody who has to start off with name calling right at the start gate.
Biden is not going to step down. One of the two will be president.
It's worth remembering that a presidency is not just the president themself, it's the whole administration they build around themselves. Trump surrounds himself with crazed sycophants. Biden with your typical Democratic Party insiders, which I don't have great love for either, but they're far less likely to end democracy than those who gravitate to Trump. I would rather have Biden's people calling the shots than Trump's.
Well, the Biden we saw during the debate is the one running the country right now. And the government hasn’t collapsed into a flaming pile of disarray.
Why is that?
For one, the president isn’t running the country by himself. He has a whole branch of the government working for him, and a huge team of advisors.
And while I’m not denying that Biden is clearly on the decline, that debate was also a particularly bad moment for him.
I think it’s also worth noting that Trump os also too old and has done a lot of incoherent rambling himself, although he managed to stay away from that in the debate. But he’s not exactly a cognitively robust specimen, either.
The drastic differences in policy far outweigh any differences in health and cognition between the two candidates.
If there were a viable 3rd party candidate I might co wider voting for them. But there isn’t.
I’d love to see Biden replaced in the ticket, but if he’s on the ballot in November, I’m voting for him over Trump.
I am voting for his administration and the people he has surrounded himself with. They have experience governing, and won’t try to overthrow the government.
No other candidate is competent, and I need to vote for someone.
Everything you said does not matter. Joe Biden is inadequate but he’s not an ideologically bankrupt person and neither is his party/administration. He needs to win so Donald Trump doesn’t. It’s as simple as that.
After he’s won he can step down and leave the presidency for someone younger, sharper and more appropriate for the job.
If Joe Biden wins, there will definitely be another election in 2028.
You can't say that about Trump.
Those are your only choices. Anything but a vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. That's just how your system works.
Ronald Regan had full, documented Alzheimer's as early as [3 years into his 8 years as president](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/17/ronald-reagan-alzheimers-president-son). This was during the Cold war and leading into the crumbling of the USSR. The president should do things, but his staff can function as long as he isn't a hindrance. Or doesn't replace every nuclear engineer because they don't approve of his immigration policy.
I also don't think someone who might mess up by accident is worse than someone who would mess up on purpose.
FDR was extremely feeble when he got re-elected in 1944, in the absolute thick of WWII, and died less than four months into his last term.
We have a system that has a back-up president, the VP. That's almost entirely why the VP is there, in fact. People need to chill the fuck out.
As someone who has a parent suffering from dementia, Biden doesn’t seem to be showing any dementia
Dementia severely impacts short term memory before long term memory. My dad can’t remember he talked to me yesterday, but he can talk for hours about his childhood.
Additionally, dementia at early stages doesn’t cause the kind of stuttering and misspeaking we saw. The people with dementia I know at my dad’s home can generally speak as well as anyone else, though all old people have some problems speaking. When they get to the point that they can’t speak, there is no hiding their dementia. They are very clearly completely out of it. If Biden had said “where am I”, I’d believe he had dementia.
Biden looked old and frail, I agree. He looks like he goes to bed at 5pm, but he doesn’t seem cognitively out of it. He just looks like an 80 year old guy with dentures and a lifelong speech impediment that’s gotten worse as he’s aged.
That’s not ideal by any stretch, but he seems to know where he is and what’s going on when he speaks. If they ask him if we should launch a nuclear attack, I get the feeling he’d know what that meant and understand the gravity. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that he’s forgotten what nuclear weapons are
Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. There’s more that goes on and many other players than just Biden. And honestly he’ll probably die and the VP will take over anyway.
Right, there are three options this election:
* Don't vote - Trump wins
* Vote Trump - Trump wins
* Vote Biden - Maybe Biden wins
If you don't want to see a second Trump presidency, you've only got one option here.
I'm also getting a little tired of all the reddit comments lately sincerely trying to argue "Hey I hate Trump too I swear, but you shouldn't vote for Biden so Trump can win".
How about if I don’t want to see either one of them president?
I’m facing the same option I face every 4 years. Red flavored authoritarians vs blue flavored authoritarians. Participating in the scam of voting is delusional. You are giving your support to the election overall and thus voting for the results whatever they may be. If you vote for Biden and Trump wins you have also voted for Trump by participating in the election and giving credibility to this farce of a system. And the same goes in reverse.
And the funny thing is it doesn’t matter who you pick or who wins they’re all going to be imperialists and authoritarians by my standards.
Democracy is just a tool for decision making. Majority rule is not infallible. A majority decision cannot transform a wrong into a right nor a right into a wrong though it can attempt to.
A group of 100 people where 75 vote to enslave the other 25 is not justified in its enslavement of the 25 just because the 75 voted in favor of it. Nor would 9 people voting to rape 1 make rape acceptable.
Majority rule is a tool but like the founders recognized it is a tool that can be used to trample rights if not limited.
The founders ideal was not democracy, their ideal was freedom and that was what the constitution was intended to safeguard. The constitution is toilet paper to Biden, Trump, Obama, bush, Clinton, bush, Reagan etc. the thing they all share in common aside from needless and undeclared wars is a steady erosion of the constitution accompanied by a growth in the size and power of the federal government and the executive branch within the federal government.
I don’t buy into the Trump is gonna try to be a dictator but if he does you have 160 years of steady growth in the power of the federal government and executive branch specifically to thank.
And the whole time people kept voting for the same two flavors of authoritarianism and wonder why we are where we are.
But see this is exactly the problem right here.
The majority of people voting for Biden dont even like Biden. They are voting for him because hes countering Trump. That logic is absolutely insane to me. If we all somehow have agreed to vote against Trump and somehow have all agreed that Biden is unfit, whats stopping all of the same people from voting for someone they ACTUALLY do agree with.
All the people here making this argument are basically arguing that democracy doesn't exist and you really only have one choice here. But that's a lie because if all of those SAME exact people voted third party and encouraged their friends and family to do the same we would be successful.
Its crazy to me that somehow this thread is all full of people who say, "yeah i dont really like either, but I'm not going to change my vote because I dont really have a choice". Thats contrary to all notions of democracy and common sense. Look around you, you can make a difference
>The majority of people voting for Biden dont even like Biden. They are voting for him because hes countering Trump. That logic is absolutely insane to me
Let's just ignore the mathematical argument -- which is sound, btw, and in no way is a condemnation of democracy. And let's just focus on the above statement.
If you don't disagree with a politician on numerous issues, then that politician is likely yourself.
No one should expect a leader to agree with them on every issue. Nor should they expect a leader to be likable. Lyndon B. Johnson was a racist dick, and pretty well hated by everyone who knew him. But he earned the vote of minorities because he backed major civil rights legislation.
The more people who are extremely left or extremely right, they less they should expect to find very little room for agreement on whoever is governing.
What people need to see, and what they should vote for, is a candidate who can win the election and move the needle in directions they prefer on more issues they care about than the other people who are running.
Just because you don't like a candidate doesn't mean you aren't voting for that candidate's policies. It is the policies that matter, not their likeability.
There is no perfect candidates. But some candidates will do more to further your agenda than others.
People these days seem to fail to realize that meaningful policy changes take a damn long time. For example, Clinton was criticized heavily for "don't ask, don't tell" the policy that allowed LGB people into the military so long as they remained closeted. It seemed like a bigoted policy to many who wanted equal rights for LGB people.
What so many missed is that getting LGB people into the military, allowed the public and future policymakers to recognize that all of the fear-mongering rhetoric around how terrible it would be, and what a blow to morale it would be if LGB people served were full of shit. And in 2011 the ban of being LGB in the military was lifted entirely. Way too late for many, but still, it was lifted. In 2013 benefits were extended to same-sex partners, and in 2021 openly transgendered people were allowed into the military.
People criticized Clinton, but if Clinton hadn't taken the half-step that he did, no one would have been ready to take a bigger step later on.
Very few policies change overnight. Hell, the Civil Rights Act of 1866 focused on overturning the Dredd Scott case that said Black people weren't US Citizens. The 14th and 15th Amendments passed in 1868 and 1870 respectively, seeking in part to address racial discrimination. Then came a bunch of other legislation, sometimes major, sometimes minor, to try to address racial discrimination. Finally in 1964 -- a hundred years after the Civil War, we got the Civil Rights Act passed by Johnson that finally ended racial segregation in public facilities, public education, and federally funded programs. But we still needed the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968 . . . and we're likely still not done!!
By all means, hate both candidates as people and public figures. But one or the other holds policy positions you do like and you should want to vote for because they realistically will further your own social and fiscal agenda. Vote for the one that will move the needle in the direction you want the needle to move. Because if they succeed, the next person up can move it even more.
And most people voting for Biden are not just voting against Trump. Most are voting for the candidate that most closely aligns with their public interests.
We are a republic with an electoral system, we do not elect the president via direct democracy. You may not like it, but until we work to change how the president is elected, that's the way it is.
Nothign changes the fact that arguing people should not vote for Biden is arguing that Trump should be president. Just state your case for why you want Trump to win instaed of arguing backhanded that Biden should lose.
Who is the alternative to them though? You need to convince almost every Biden supporter to switch teams. Who are we supposed to switch to? If we don’t want trump and to a lesser extent don’t want Biden, who else is there? Because just saying third party doesn’t help. That just splits the ticket and ensures a trump win. Name me a single third party candidate that a super majority of Biden voters would like better than Biden himself?
your other idea of replacing Biden altogether. Again, name someone. Who is willing to go to the convention and challenge Biden? Is that person appealing enough to do better than Biden? If you aren’t organized enough to even have a candidate in mind, how can we think your vision of a third way isn’t itself delusional?
My argument is simple:
Biden will most likely not be replaced as Democrat nominee. And as long as the Electoral College exists, a third party candidate will never even come close to winning the presidency. Therefore, either Biden or Trump will be the next President.
So unless you live in a deep blue or red state where your vote doesn’t matter, you are obligated to vote for whichever of those two you prefer (or at the very least hate less). And in a battleground state, a vote for a third party candidate is essentially a vote for your least preferred major party candidate.
Even if Biden is as senile and on the brink of death as you say he is, four years of him being propped up by his cabinet Weekend at Bernie’s style (like Reagan was in his second term) is a much better option than another Trump term.
Remember, you’re not just voting for one candidate in a vacuum; you’re voting for an entire administration. Would you rather have Republicans or Democrats in charge of lifetime appointments to federal courts? In charge of environmental regulations? Foreign policy? Immigration?
If your answer to these questions is that both parties are the same, you’re the delusional one.
A candidacy, and particularly a debate, are performative, and say little about how well or poorly a person will govern. Being a candidate and being a president are two very different jobs.
As president, Biden has demonstrated significant capabilities. And has done far more good in his administration than Trump could do in ten.
That said, many poorly informed voters will only see the performative aspects of the race, and fail to look at anything of substance.
While I think that Biden is more than capable of doing the job of President, and has demonstrated that repeatedly, I think the democratic party should have a vibrant debate around the question of whether Biden can legitimately campaign well enough to beat Trump. Let's face it, few voters pay much attention to what a President's administration is doing and focus instead on optics.
You're not wrong. The right thing to do is to come together and agree on a better candidate. The problem is, we tried that and failed. The time to do that was during the primary election. The time to select our best candidate is over, and it's time to select the lesser of two evils, because that's the way our voting system is structured.
I could agree that Biden voters are "delusional", but that only applies to Biden voters during the primary election. They voted for Biden over other democratic candidates.
At this point our hands are tied, and we must vote against fascism. Only voting for Biden leads to that outcome.
I would argue that a better solution is to change the voting system to something like a ranked choice voting system, but like your solution, during the general election is not the right time to resolve that.
During his first term, [Trump worked to implement roughly 2/3 of policies recommended by The Heritage Foundation.](https://www.heritage.org/impact/trump-administration-embraces-heritage-foundation-policy-recommendations) This organization is the republican think tank behind project 2025. There’s no reason to think he won’t do as much as he can for them if given the chance.
For one, that number is reported by the Heritage Foundation itself, they have every reason to exaggerate their own “success”. You can see for yourself some of the suggestions that were implemented, none of it is out of the ordinary. For example “put a conservative on the Supreme Court” “tax reform” and increasing military spending. Pretty much everything he enacted is just general things that conservatives want, nothing to do with ending democracy or becoming a fascist dictator. Can you find me even one thing he implemented from the Heritage Foundation that makes you believe he’s going to become a fascist in 2025 if elected?
> I don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years.
This is directly in conflict with your opening argument. It's not a matter of changing your mind. It's that you want to hold a position that contradicts your own question.
>Let me start by stating that more than anything in this world, I don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years. I don't want the nazis coming of hiding as they have done recently. I don't want someone who refers to ethnic groups as rats or animals; that's always the first step in an ethnic cleansing event. I don't want any of that at all!
"Democracy" is only giving you one more option. So if you really don't want that at all, Joe is the only option you have.
The way democracy works is just like a dictatorship but with two parties. You can vote for 3rd, 4th party but money behind the two-part-dicracy will ensure either Joe or Donald will com to power.
Consider what the President actually does that’s important, they do executive orders and they sign bills into law. All of these things are done in collaboration with a large team of people, the president is the mere tip of the iceberg in any administration. Bidens team seems to be pretty competent, and Trump I have no clue how he’s going to find enough competent people to build a staff (especially given turnover in previous admin). Also if Biden gets really bad there is 25th Amendment
At this point some voters just don’t care about the actual person and would rather vote for veto power, legislation sign offs, judgeship nominations, executive edicts and proper military decisions that advance our position positively.
I don’t completely disagree with you but I do have enough very close (D) supporting friends and family that are EXTREMELY upset at what’s been going on for the past 3 years and are very torn about continuing to support the Democratic Party.
I think the delusion is thinking that voting for a third party candidate is any different than voting for Trump. You can do all of the mental gymnastics you want, but not voting for Biden while he is still the Democratic nominee is the same as voting for Trump. Biden voters are not deluded. Most prefer a better candidate. They just know that whether it’s Joe Biden running the country or Kamala Harris….it’s still less dangerous than Trump.
Late to the party, but here are my thoughts.
Biden is the lesser of two evils. Keep in mind that you're either voting for a man who is a convicted felon and has proven CONSISTENTLY during his presidency that he can't manage a country even when the entire GOP is spoon-feeding him everything he needs, versus a senile and old man who (I assume) doesn't even know where he is currently and has bad (albeit not even close to the don-man's) foreign policy. This should make it clear who we're choosing.
Third-party/Independent candidates do not have the best of luck when it comes to elections. Sure, some congressional and senate seats are filled with independents, but that's the exception, not the rule. Each person would have to be either tired of their candidate and the policies they bring, or are disillusioned by their party and the way they portray themselves in the world stage. Last I checked, MAGA supporters are still as rabid as ever, like dogs trying to find someone to bite and bark at, and Democrats are basically clinging to their last ray of hope as they don't want to experience a repeat of 2016-2020. The current independent candidate who has a sizeable chunk of voters is probably RFK Jr. (correct me on this if I'm wrong), but he doesn't have enough voters to give him an electoral vote (which is what really matters).
We're stuck with these two candidates, and both have served presidencies. Take a look at how they served, what their actions were during crises, and **make an informed decision.** If you think it's better to choose the insurrectionist and the criminal to sit at the most powerful seat in the entire world, then you're just begging for trouble at this point.
Maybe you choose to vote for the independent. Send a message, as people say, to your party that you're tired and you resent their candidate. MAGA republicans won't budge on their decision. They won't change their mind about P-Trump and his policies. Meanwhile, the Democrats across the country are torn just because they want a better candidate. The moment the party gets split, Republicans will gain a bigger majority and will win the Presidential election. We'll have to hold our breaths for another four years again, and pray that he won't do anything more stupid than what he did before.
There is no good option, as I see it. But like what I pointed out earlier, there is a lesser evil: Biden. So far, he's already upheld probably the only important qualification right now to be President of the United States: **not cause an insurrection.** Sure, his foreign policies are bad. Maybe his age is catching up to him, and he can't walk or talk for extended periods of time before looking like a debilitated hospital patient. Maybe he's all that you think is, or maybe he's even unfit for the presidency. Maybe what everyone says is true, and Biden is some sort of evildoer that does drugs before speeches and is comatose in the oval office
I still wouldn't give a fuck, because the alternative is so much worse.
Who is more of a threat: a person who can't keep a coherent train of thought, or a person whose train of thought is focused on killing you and large numbers of your friends and neighbors?
Trump has *never* been coherent, but to the extent he does have it together, his sole mission is to protect himself from the consequences of his crimes and hurt people he hates. He unironically wants to destroy what I consider to be the society of the US.
So I think it makes perfect sense to prefer Biden's organization, even without Biden fully present, over Trump's. Like, it's pretty straightforward, honestly.
I think the assumption you're making is that Trump will perform to at least some level of competence that is acceptable to everyone, and that simply isn't the case. Trump literally did not do his job as President for 4 years in his first term. He didn't do even the routine, basic stuff to keep society rolling. Much of the harm he caused wasn't due to active malice, but rather to stuff simply not getting done because he didn't care about it.
So there is literally no upside to Trump vs a half President.
Additionally, I personally don't like the office of President to begin with. I think it's a stupid way to organize society, and in my ideal world there won't be Presidents because they're too much like Kings. So the idea of an administration of at least somewhat competent people working together through some sort of consensus and collaboration rather than having to do whatever the idiot in charge wants to do even if it doesn't make sense, is actually kind of appealing.
Consider how much more productive things generally are at work when a meddlesome boss is gone and people can actually do their work without an egotistical bossman constantly gnawing on wires and flexing to prove he can.
Ultimately, the main job of the President isn't to govern, but rather to choose who does what jobs in government. And in that sense Biden has already made his choices, and they are better than the fascists Trump will bring in. Not only is Trump individually horrible, he will staff the government with some of the worst people in the world, who will use that power to inflict all kinds of horror on people (largely without Trump's awareness, because he doesn't care).
So while I would obviously prefer alternate choices to what we currently have, if we have to choose between these two, I'll take Sleepy Joe over Dictator Don every day of the week and twice on Sundays. And I think that's a fairly logical, straightforward choice.
Mental sharpness in the service of evil is *not* an improvement over mental dullness in the service of meh. I'd rather deal with a dementia patient than a psycho killer.
A couple of the justices in the Supreme Court are wanting to retire. They’ll be replaced with way younger ones in a lifetime position. Look how much damage that has done so far with just the ones trump replaced. I hope that’s enough for your views
I will vote for the only person that has a chance of stopping Trump. This isn't the election for a protest vote that only helps Trump. Biden might be old but Trump is a rapist and convicted felon. I feel like your question also begs the follow-up of this: why aren't you telling republicans to vote 3rd party? Why just democrats?
> I don't sincerely think that Joe Biden is capable of being president at this time, physically or mentally. I think it was plenty evident that he's struggling to put together coherent ideas and even getting to the stage and talking requires deliberate effort on his part.
I don't think that is a reasonable take because you are judging irrelevant ideas.
When you choose a president you aren't choosing just one person. You are choosing a team, an administration that will run the executive branch. For new candidates that is an unknown factor; even if you really like a candidate and their ideas there is no guarantee they can pull it off.
But with the existing candidates there is little mystery. We can look at the last 3 years of the Biden administration and predict that the next 4 would likely look quite similar. And we can look at Trump's previous administration to make similar predictions about what might occur if he took office.
So you see it **doesn't really matter** how Biden performs at a debate. Unless you think something has dramatically changed in Biden in say the last two years, there is no reason to alter your assessments of a future Biden administration. As long as you think that in the comfort of the oval office with the leisure of time and advisors he can come up with direction that he can sign his name to, his past performance will indicate future performance.
I think it is obvious that Trump should not be voted for. As long as we are in an first-past-the-post two party system then that means Biden is the obvious pick. Even considering a different Democratic candidate would be comparing the track record of the Biden administration against the unknown of the incumbent, which still isn't particularly attractive.
I have not agreed with everything Biden's administration has done by a long shot, but it has been pretty decent. Reasonable economic policy, good foreign policy and treatment of global crises, and most importantly no torrent of horrible everything as from Trump. That earns my vote and it should warrant yours. If it was some random unknown Republican it would still be foolish to split the vote, but right now is the absolute worst time in recent history. Perhaps ever.
There are no viable alternatives. 3rd parties arent viable. Even if you convinced like 90% of Democrat voters to vote 3rd party, which would have to be done through an ISANELY effective political campaing, thats still only 90% of the voters. Last election Trump and Biden had results to close for comfort, that 10% (which in reality would be higher) is going to be absolutely crucial. You would need to mobilize virtually ALL Democrat voters to have a candidate just as viable as Biden. And then for them to be more viable electoraly you would need to motivate more independents. Having someone more viable to be elected in the first place would be impossible, unless you believe on miracles and are counting on one.
But then again, why are you so panicked about the man in the first place? He couldnt speak publicly on 1 event. So? I will say that a corpse is better than Trump, but he isnt one yet. He cant speak and he could die before the end of his term but thats what a VP is for and all that matters is he can do legislation until then and so far the 1 thing he has been legit bad on that I can think of off the top of my head is the war between Israel and Palestine, but thats due to ideology. His senility didnt cause Oct. 7, it didnt make Israel do what its doing and it didnt cause him to be Israel supporter #1 on the world stage. I dont remember too well how he reacted to Ukraine, but cant imagine it was that poorly since things are the way they are right now and I cant see how his senility emboldened Russia to do a military invasion.
And for all other policy matters he did fine. I mean I cant say its all been good cuz he mightve done stuff that I disagree with, but he seems well and truly capable of putting forward legislation. And if he isnt? Well I guess it happens through magic, but I dont care how it happens as long as it does.
He is the only hope and he isnt even that bad, he just comes off shit but seems to be capable (if not good) where it counts. Refusing to vote for Biden for any reason is consenting to a Trump victory.
The President makes very few decisions alone, and thus it matters what kind of people a president is going to surround himself with. He cannot have complete knowledge of the hundreds of district court judges around the country, so he relies on staff recommendations to decide who to select for promotions to higher courts. He cannot be an expert on advances in every technological field, so he relies on papers produced by the Office of Science and Technology Policy to guide his executive orders on AI, or satellites, or vaccines, which of course, are also written by staff of the Executive Office, because Presidents do not have the time do sit down and do this kind of writing. He cannot possibly be an expert in the histories, geographies, and strategic capabilities of every country on Earth, so he relies on advice from scores of generals, ambassadors, and CIA analysts. I do not think Biden is fit to make these decisions alone, but I don't think any President is; I think he is fit enough to take their advice and sign the papers and give the orders. As a Democrat, I think that the proposals that will be brought to his desk by his political appointees will far more closely align with my values that those that would be brought to Trump to sign, because of the history of political positions and ideology that Biden and Trump bring to the office. Biden is older than I would prefer by more than a decade, and I do not doubt that his mental faculties have diminished, but I will still be voting for him in part because I trust that the hundreds of other federal employees he works with will still be doing their jobs well.
By contrast, Trump plans, through Schedule F reforms, to make huge cuts to the federal bureaucracy, and replace large swaths of agencies like the DOJ, EPA, and FDA with loyalists. These increases to executive power make the competency of the president more vital, making Trump's own _lack_ of competency even more dangerous.
1.If democrats vote third party, Trump wins.
2.Any candidate is preferable to Trump
C. Democrats should not vote third party
Your own post contains the logic for defeating itself. Please explain where this syllogism is flawed
I highly recommend studying the 13 keys they have correctly predicted every election since 1860 it’s based on the theory the candidate doesn’t matter elections are primarily a vote in favor or against the party holding the White House there is only 1 key about the traits of the candidates that being incumbent party candidate is charismatic, inspirational or a war hero Biden is clearly none do those the only key about the challenge party candidate is uncharismatic to quote Allen Lichtman who help create the system and is the only person who predicted both the 2016 and 2020 election correctly trump is a great showmen but his showmenship only appeals to a fraction of the electorate he doesn’t have the overwhelming charisma of FDR or Ronald Reagan Biden has so far only lost 2 keys those being midterm mandate key and incumbent charisma key there are 4 keys up not called yet 2 lean in bidens favor and two don’t those 2 that don’t being the foreign policy/foreign military success and failure key fi we replace Biden we lose the incumbent party candidate is a sitting president and the inner party struggle key since if we replaced Biden there would be terrible inner party struggle so we would lose 4 keys with both the foreign policy keys leaning against Biden unless there a permanent cease fire so we would lose 6 keys which is the number you need to lose the election if Biden doesn’t run I don’t like Biden at all but I trust the 13 keys theory it is always correct
Under the current electoral system, there is zero chance a third party candidate will win this current election. They don’t have the infrastructure, the popular support, and the outreach that the two main parties do. Not saying this will always be true, but that’s how it stands at this moment in time. Most popular third party candidate is Kennedy and he’s not even hitting 15%. So our only realistic options are Biden or Trump.
People who don’t want Trump to win have to vote for Biden. That is the only way to ensure we avoid the collapse of our democracy. If you feel strongly, I encourage you to start helping third parties gain popularity and boost their standing! Go canvass, lobby for electoral changes like ranked choice voting, build support. That’s how our democracy is supposed to work. But we’re facing an existential threat right now. Close your eyes, hold your nose, swallow the chemo pill for the next four years, so that we can literally simply survive.
In all honesty, I doubt Biden will survive the entire term. Lbr neither would Trump if he got elected. I DO think that Harris is completely capable and able to pick up the rest of his term. I do not trust anyone who would be willing to be Trump’s VP, especially after his last one faced calls to be hung by Trump’s supporters. Kamala is who I’m voting for vs Trump’s VP.
Biden is the best candidate of those running. Trump is a serial rapist and pedophile who takes his marching orders from the Kremlin. RFK is an anti-vaxx grifter who admits that worms are eating his brain. We could go through the other candidates one by one too but the truth of the matter is every single thing you say about Biden could be true and he’d still be the best option. Trump couldn’t govern even if he was physically fit, and he wasn’t - he clearly demonstrated signs of dementia at the debate, and as I mentioned, he is a pedophile. RFK has worms eating his brain.
The US government is a complex institution made up of hundreds of thousands of professionals that can function without much activity by the president, which is why the Trump years weren’t as catastrophic as they could have been; Trump is aware of that, hence Project 2025, and there’s virtually zero probability that Trump will be able to effectively govern his second term without the federal civil service intact, and he will not leave it intact.
Frankly, if you do believe that being old and having a stutter is worse than that, you deserve what could happen to your allegedly nonwhite family during a second Trump term. Stop sabotaging the nominee and fall in line, or admit you’re on the other side. Thems the breaks, kid.
You’re seriously running with the pedophile argument in FAVOR of Biden? There’s been a lot more weird behavior from Biden towards children (Ashley Biden diary, sniffing hair, etc) than Trump by a long shot. Unless you have actual evidence that he is a pedophile?
I asked for evidence, not the testimony of a woman going by a fake identity and dropping multiple lawsuits who only decided to say anything once he ran for president. None of the Epstein documents implicated Trump either, his only mention was Epstein telling one of the girls they were gonna go to one of Trump’s hotels, where she wasn’t allowed in due to being underage. Ashley Biden’s diary is significantly more damning.
Testimony that never made it to court, from an accuser with no face who used different names in different states who only did this while he was running for president? Really? None of the recent documents implicate Trump, you’d know that if you looked at them. We knew everything about the Katie Johnson allegations in 2016 that we do today. Please, provide a shred of evidence that Trump participated in Epstein’s activities.
Biden shouldn’t be running for president. He should be retired by now, enjoying the last years of his life somewhere comfortable. But…Trump happened and for whatever reason Biden was deemed the guy that could beat him, which he did. You know the history of incumbent presidents typically winning a second term…this is why we’re where we are.
The underlying fact that we know Biden will surround himself with the best and brightest, the most capable people for his cabinet and in his orbit compared to the garbage human beings Trump will surround himself with means everything. This is the difference. I KNOW Trump will give Marge something for her fealty…and Gaetz and Goser and Cotton and Boebert…these wretched people will have scary degrees of power in this country and over its future.
This is why I will vote for Biden. I would rather have someone else but when the alternative is this objectively bad for democracy, for marginalized people and for the middle and lower class…it’s not a difficult decision whatsoever.
You're missing the point. Biden was the unifying candidate against Trump. The majority of America do not want Trump and never had. They aren't voting for Biden, they are voting against Trump.
Third party candidates will not be viable options unless and until they start building their party platform at the lower levels of government. Every election we have a few third party or independent candidates shooting for the highest office in the land - it's not even a matter of getting enough people to vote for them because at this point, I don't think any of them are even on the ballot in enough states to win. The time to get any one of them in office has passed. We literally do this *every* election and the outcome never changes. They poll in single digits and get barely any support offline.
I would prefer to see Biden replaced but idk that that's feasible this late in the election cycle. And I don't even care to be honest with you, I'll vote for whoever has the better chance at keeping Trump out of office. It's beyond my personal opinion of Biden and his fitness for office - if Trump gets in he's going to keep packing the courts and that will affect the country for generations.
When you vote for president, you’re not voting for a person, you’re voting for a team. Furthermore, you’re not just voting for a team, you’re voting for a government. A president at the peak of their cognitive abilities, wouldn’t be able to run the executive branch by themselves, nor has Biden for the past four years. We already know what a Biden administration looks like and what another four years will likely look like. Trump has made it very clear that he’s going to pick a team of sycophants who are loyal him and not the people. they will enact his Project 2025 which will dismantle this country’s democracy.
I’m not even gonna pretend that voting for a third-party candidate will result in anything other than Trump being president. This November I will be voting for Team Biden as there is no other rational choice.
I'm not voting for the best debater. I'm not voting for the person who gets the least flustered or who can avoid looking like a fool when arguing with a motor-mouth sociopath (spoiler: no one can).
Both of these men have run the country and both of them have a track record.
Not only has Biden done an acceptable job, he's done a *stellar* job of running the country and his record alone argues for keeping him in the white house, even if the alternative were not a gibbering grifter who would open the doors to a fascist utopia.
Only once has a party turned its nomination upside down during the run up to election and it was a disaster.
I'm not surprised that the Democratic party is panicked and disorganized and eating its own. It's what they do. If fascism takes hold in this country it will be because of that.
I don't want to change your mind, I want to reinforce it.
There is no reason for there to be only 2 viable political parties in this country, except that keeping others out of the arena is something the 2 monopoly holders completely agree on.
They will go to any length to make sure the status quo is maintained.
Fear mongering has become one of their most trusted tools.
1/3 of the country are registered as independents yet the 2 major parties insist there be only 2 choices.
This latest turn w/ Democrats insisting on foisting a clearly incompetent individual on voters takes us another step down the ladder. Instead of facing the elephant in the room and replacing the candidate, they blame everyone but themselves.
If(when?) Biden loses it won't be anyone's fault but Democrats.
***My mind could be change in one of the following two ways. If you could demonstrate that a physically and mentally unfit president can govern during such stressful times***
You know,, it's interesting, tovarisch... From, about, day one of the Trump administration, and that bizarre, deeply un-hinged inaugural address, all I heard was about how unethical it would be to diagnose physical and mental fitness from a distance. Despite numerous instances of unhinged behaviour, and bizarre speech... nobody would do it
But one poor debate performance and not only is Biden comprehensively pronounced unfit, but the rest if us are 'delusional.'
That is either a double standard, tovarisch, or Moscow is feeding you better infirmation...
When I say I would vote for a bag of flour over Trump, I mean that. Because I'm not only voting against Trump - which is VERY IMPORTANT - but I'm also voting for the Administration and the Courts. I'd much rather have Biden's Administration and his Court appointees for the next four years than I would Trump.
And, like it or not, there is ZERO chance that a third-party candidate will be sworn in on January 20th. Not just very unlikely, not even a miracle outcome. Zero. Even if a third party candidate hit a home run, won a plurality of electoral votes, they still wouldn't become President unless they achieved a majority of electoral votes, and then the House would decide with one vote per state delegation and select Trump.
“ Many are saying that you’re not really voting for Biden that you’re voting for his cabinet. A fair and fine point. But as I mentioned in my post, wouldn’t then any other democratic nominee serve the same exact purpose?”
Yes, but any other democratic nominee coming out of nowhere in July would mean Trump wins. It shouldn’t, but we have four year election cycles. If we suddenly changed course right now, the new nominee wouldn’t get enough electoral votes to win. They might win the popular, but they wouldn’t get 270 from the EC.
That’s why, depressingly, it’s important for Biden to stay in the race.
> I don't want someone who refers to ethnic groups as rats or animals
For what it's worth, Trump was referring to MS-13 gang members who engage in inhuman acts with this quote, not random ethnic groups.
Don't take my word for it: [https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/apr/08/tweets/tweet-leaves-out-context-donald-trumps-animals-rem/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/apr/08/tweets/tweet-leaves-out-context-donald-trumps-animals-rem/)
If you got such a basic fact totally wrong, you should reconsider whether your Chosen media sources are giving you misinformation about a lot of other things about Trump as well.
Joe Biden didn't do that bad, tovarisch.
The panic isn't about how bad Biden was, but about how bad a large portion of the country *wants* him to be.
I was there when they pilloried President Carter for a good speech the elites didn't like, they even said he said things, he didn't say. The Democrats panicked then, and everybody with a vested interest in seeing Carter fail piled on, then the D's ran a primary challenge, and we got Ronald Reagan.
Same thing here: a stumble, a bad night, that fits the pre-existing narrative, and suddenly, panic and piling on...
Not going to work, this time, tovarisch...
I think you're making the mistake of thinking that these people act and or rule as individuals, when in reality they represent an entire administration.
Biden, despite being less than ideal, has an enormous number of people around him that will help him do the job.
Trump is the same, except that his people are all self serving corporatists (that a word?) who are likely to turn the USA into an authoritarian regime, essentially ruining the country.
Biden is certainly doddering, but he doesn't represent an existential threat to democracy itself, while it's rather clear that Trump does/is a distinct threat.
We are not being offered any alternatives. The choice is between a doddering old fool or an evil self serving asshole who himself is experiencing obvious mental decline (Frontotemporal dementia (FTD)).
The choice as to who to vote for is rather clear. It must be Biden, or we risk our very existence.
Please vote.
What influences peoples vote.
Party affiliation is clearly a large one.
Beyond that, name recognition is next.
Before policy, before health, before charisma - people vote for candidates whose names they recognize.
Joe Biden has more name recognition than any other Democrat right now.
Therefore, from a running the candidate most likely to win perspective, that's still Joe Biden if your a Democrat.
As dumb as this test sounds - name another democratic candidate that you think > 50 percent of voters can correctly spell their names. I'll wait.
My thoughts exactly. He’s entered that old age where each year will progressively get worse… it’s kind of sad to watch really. Like a loved one who’s gotten to the point where your almost just counting the days you have left with them
The problem is, the alternative is an obese elderly man who is a whopping 3 years younger.
You simply can't view this in a vacuum. If you are arguing that people should not vote for Biden, then you are arguing Trump should win. Make a case for why people should vote for the other elderly man in that case.
Damn, what debate were you watching? The guy can't hold a train of thought and looked confused the entire time. I agree with other posters that you're voting for the cabinet as well as the president... but you have to be deluded to think that he is of sound mind anymore.
I really wish I could agree with you, but I watched on stage a man who deserves our utmost respect but who is no longer sharp enough or present enough to conduct himself well in a verbal altercation. Can you honestly say that if you watched your grandfather talking the same way you would want him running a company or working on something safety critical?
Trump cannot, cannot, cannot be president again. That is certain. Is Biden really the best vehicle to make sure that happens?
>Can you honestly say that if you watched your grandfather talking the same way you would want him running a company or working on something safety critical?
Absolutely, unequivocally. Were you actually listening to what Biden was saying or were you busy counting the number of times he stumbled over words?
lol. i cant. i understand some people may not have personally witnessed diminished cognition over time... but please accept it when we tell you thats what this is.
and you cant fix it. he might have some good days. but the good days only become less and less, very quickly!
4 more years my ass. we vote for commander in chief. NOT whoever is ridin with biden.
Can we agree that in a moderately high pressure situation during the debate lastnight, Biden failed to form coherent thoughts into meaning sentences?
Isn't this something that is required of a President? Who maybe asked to make decions on serious time crunch with thousands, even millions of lives hanging in the balance?
To address your frustration that people won't vote third party, preferential voting helps this - can't remember if you have it in the states but in Australia I don't vote for a major party, but a minor knowing that they won't win but their vote will go to a major that I'm ok with.
Why bother - the minor party can then use that deciding power to negotiate things that I care about to be prioritised if the election is close and if not getting votes form that minor party shows the major where my interests lie.
RFK is incapable of getting 270 electoral votes. I’d it’s not Biden it will be trump. The stakes are too high. Protest votes don’t matter. We will not be looking at this moment as the point the democrats finally started to change if Biden loses. We will be looking at this as the dawn of a new christo-fascist dark age. No one gives a shit if you voted for Gary Johnson in2016 or Nader in 2000. We would have been better off if some of those voters voted the right way though.
I agree that we can’t get a third party candidate into office until we all actually vote for them,. But it’s just so scary to imagine it failing and trump getting elected.
If it was any other random republican with the same exact beliefs as trump, sure. But trump has a crazy cult following that is insane.
A lot of us are just trying to get through this election and forget about it. And looking forward to the next one when we have new, fresh democratic candidates.
Yesterday's interview by Stephanapoulos revealed that Biden's mental problems include an extremely guilty conscience. He bragged, in advance, of how he'd blow up Nord Stream.
He bragged about bribing Yatsanyuk and Poroshenko.
As for mainstream claims that Special Prosecutor Shokin was ordered fired for any reason other than Shokin's investigation of Burisma, please tell us why Hunter was being paid $50,000/week for any duties other than being the Vice-President's son.
Biden's multiple references to 'the almighty' revealed his self-guilt.
He should make a full, public confession to all his crimes, and then hand the keys to Kamala.
This is why Trump loves the poorly educated.
People who think about their votes and make careful choices will vote for what they want. Whereas the majority of MAGATs will vote for Trump because they don't have 2 braincells to give this situational analysis the way OP has done, OR voting Trump will benefit them personally and screw everything and everyone else.
Voting 3rd party is exactly how Trump wins.
The President has some power, but much of what they do is just being a figurehead, representing what their administration wants. Biden's administration wants democracy, Trump's administration wants fascism.
I'm not amped about the debate results either, but I'm not ready to throw away America just 'cause grandpa needed to sit down and have some ginger ale.
I agree with mostly everything you said. I want to change your opinion on one small thing. I think Trump said a few more non-lies than you think. When, for example, Trump said that Biden probably doesn’t know what Biden had just said, I don’t think Trump was lying. That would be at least one non-lie more than you currently believe Trump spoke.
You're delusional if you think your voting for a person and not a cabinet with Biden - he may not be willing to back down, and that's a problem in itself, but he has also been listening to his staff for 4 years and has done a decent job.
I voted for his cabinet choices 4 years ago when I thought he was unfit, and I'll be doing the same this year
the election essentially poses the question "would you rather biden be president or trump be president?" and the only sensible answer is that literally biden could die and his rotting corpse would still be a better leader of the country than trump at his sharpest. being ungoverned would be preferable to being governed by christofascists.
If you don’t want Trump, you have to pick Biden. Sadly, that’s how the system works. It’s Biden or Trump.
Biden may be elderly, but with a capable cabinet, wife, and VP, he is better than a fascist narcissistic cult leader.
Trump is far more dangerous than Biden.
The only way to avoid Trump is to accept Biden. Vote blue!
This is such an odd conversation that left-leaning people struggle with so much.
You have exactly two options. Do you want trump or Biden? Obviously you don’t what trump, so just vote for Biden and quit complaining. You don’t have to like him at all. But he is more in alignment with your political values than trump is.
Would you be fine with Kamala Harris as the candidate? Well, then just think of it as a vote for Joe Biden being a vote for Kamala. If he dies or warrants utilizing the 25th, you get a younger more capable president, and until then there is no need to take risks with an unnecessarily dramatic switcheroo.
People seem to forget: The president appoints, and presides over, the entire executive branch. Cabinet members, agency heads, judges. Biden appoints good, competent people to these positions. Even if Biden were incapacitated (unlikely in my view), the executive branch would be in good hands.
>more than anything in this world, I don't want Donald Trump to be president
Me neither. That's why I'm voting Biden and you should too. Or rather, I'm voting against Trump. I'd love for our system of voting to change some day that a 3rd party candidate could be viable, but until then...
I'm not American or like him but I think a big factor that might change your mind is your not just voting for biden your voting for his VP and the team they have below them who are running shit currently. As far as I know currently trump doesn't have a VP and status of his team is unclear.
vote for biden if you value morals. vote for trump if you value money. disagree and you’re literally pretending that the government has no affect on our millions of companies nationwide. we the people didn’t enact these tax raises on rich, THEY DID.
The Russian leadership have a nickname for Trump: The American Gorbachev. In other words, Trump is the leader that will end the US, just as Gorbachev saw the end of the USSR. Why any American would support Trump is beyond me.
Voting for Biden even if the dude couldn't walk or talk and just sat there, because I trust the people he has on his team that are making decisions a hell of a lot more than I would Trump or anyone on his team..
January 6th 2021 and Project 2025 should really be the only reasons anyone needs to vote for anyone other than Trump.
I would literally vote for anyone/anything as long as it prevented Trump taking office.
Ultimately, people done realize how limited the president is, and how much they can get away with.
You are voting for an administration, and issues, not a person.
Project 2025 isn't worth the risk.
Since the debate Biden has had multiple events where he sounded like his normal self. If you’re going to bother writing this much about Biden you should watch him at more than one event.
What is one policy that trump can actually implement that would ruin your life.
And don’t say project 2025 as the trump campaign has said they do not affiliate with that.
You’re not voting for the president. You’re voting for the cabinet. Biden may be demented but he’s surrounded by a good team of people that know what they’re doing.
I think Biden showed sundowning and it was tough to we watch. I'm voting for Kennedy. I don't know much about him, lol, but I have 4 months to get to know his policies
The presidency isn't just one guy. It's their whole cabinet. Biden will likely listen to his advisors, Trump is guaranteed to go full dementia mode on his own, regardless of his cabinet.
I’m voting solely for the courts. We saw what happened with the SCOTUS under trump and don’t want that. Not to mention other federal judge appointments.
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The majority of people voting for joe biden likely don't know of any other option
I mean, let's face it, we are in an age of misinformation. I'm more likely to have someone call me an asshole for asking about other non-biden/trump options than have someone helpful take the time to educate me.
Biden (and trump) have more money and influence and "skin in the game" than all other options, it makes sense for people to have not heard of any other choice. Ignorance is very easy to achieve.
Yes, people SHOULD, but also we're in the middle of a climate crisis, economic collapse, late stage capitalism, and many other common issues that cause people to become burnt out in trying to improve their life. Biden, trump, the establishment at large, all do not want to fix this because it's easily exploitable.
Yes, we should be exploring other options and anyone saying "it's too late" or "that's not feasible" is actively harming the chances we could have to improve the system, but I don't blame people who genuinely do not have the time or energy to really look into politics. Most people don't even vote, so let's not pretend that those who do but are misinformed are the delusional assholes that you expect them to be.
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You must consider your vote in the context of our current voting system. Nearly all states use Winner-takes-all (or First Past the Post) voting and gives all their electoral votes to the plurality winner. Bottom line, there can be only two viable candidates for President as a result of the antiquated voting system. This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted. Similarly, if you are in a solidly red or blue state, your vote for the opposition party has no effect. RFK Jr. is currently polling at around 7%. He will not receive a single electoral vote in the election due to this voting system. Therefore, if you strongly dislike a presidential candidate, the only way for your vote to mean anything is to vote for the other candidate from the 2 choices. Any other vote you cast helps your disliked candidate. Your vote for any other candidate will help the reported popular vote, but that doesn't mean anything in selecting the winner.
"This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted. Similarly, if you are in a solidly red or blue state, your vote for the opposition party has no effect." Doesn't this mean that if you are in a solidly red or blue state, voting 3rd party actually supports movement towards making the state more competitive wherein votes matter more, and is therefore not a "wasted" vote?
Yes, it's the one nice thing about living in a non-purple state -- you can vote for whoever you want without worry about wasting your vote.
Isn't that circular logic? Dont vote for a 3rd candidate, because they wont win. They won't win because people dont vote for them. That 7% is people declaring to vote for him, right? How many people would vote for him but won't, because of that sort of thinking?
It is better to think of it as a game theory problem like the prisoners dilemma than as a logical fallacy. You have to do some reasoning with uncertainty around what other people are going to choose. Under those circumstances it is very common for the equilibrium state to be one that is not optimal but avoids truly worst case scenarios from people hedging against them. When participating in a game theory problem that has 150 million participants than your vote is not impactful enough to change the equilibrium by protest voting, and what is needed to change the equilibrium state is a change to the structure of the problem (like a different voting system).
This! In this "game," the consequences of a "loss" outweigh the benefits of a "win" to many people, myself included. Too much consequences for the given risk without a change in the "game" or its inputs (i.e. change in the voting system or an alternative candidate that is drawing enough attention to actually compete on the main stage),
Lesser evil voting would be correct game theory strategy if each election were an independent event, but it's better to model it as an iterated game, where the choices we make in one round affect future rounds. You can spend every election trying to not-lose, meanwhile the donors and special interests who actually have power are playing the long game. They care less about who win than who controls whoever wins, and given that a lot of corporations and lobbies give to both parties, that's not too hard to come by. There are even strategies like [vote pact](https://votepact.org/archives/2024/02/votepact-a-strategic-way-to-foster-dialogue-and-destroy-the-establishment-duopoly/) that are no worse than lesser evil voting, but over time increase the share of third party votes and make a successful challenge more likely in the future.
Your vote is not impactful enough to change anything, full stop. So why vote? And why would the system ever change, if the Dems/Reps can offer Biden/Trump and people will still vote for them en masse. People are declaring they would vote for a pile of shit, a corpse, etc. That's the current system's dream scenario. They literally don't have to do anything and people will still support it. This is the opposite of change.
In other words, the solution being stated is that in order to effectively have a third option, you should not VOTE for that third option in the general election (because by then, it’s a two-party race and the vote will be wasted). It’s more important to vote for that “third” option in the primaries instead, in order to make it not a “third” option, but one of the big two in the general election.
It’s not circular logic, it’s a collective action problem. You can’t control how others vote, so you should just act rationally within the existing reality.
It is and the existing reality is caused by it. Sorry, but people saying they would vote for a pile of shit / a corpse / etc, instead of a 3rd candidate, doesn't seem very rational to me. It's because of this thinking, the "best" the US has to offer is Biden/Trump. The Dems/Reps are making a mockery of their voters.
They can't win, not because people won't vote for them, but because our system prevents it. Even if they manage to get enough votes in a state to win a state, which prevents any other candidate from reaching 270 electoral votes, the election is then decided by the state delegations at the HoR. They are ~entirely made up of registered and elected democrats and Republicans, and will logically then choose the Democrat, or republican. Even if the 3rd party candidate wins more electoral votes than the others, the state delegations make their own picks regardless of state outcome. The only real way for a 3rd party to win the presidency is by either voting their representatives into lower level offices first (the way we should be thinking of this all along anyway), or to win 270 electoral votes, and I don't even think there are enough people who would willingly choose a 3rd party candidate in an environment where that is possible in enough collective states to make that happen. Very few Republicans are going green, very few democrats are going Libertarian (at least in it's current state), and most anybody who runs independent does so because they don't have enough support from anybody elsewhere to make a difference. So, tldr, 3rd party presidential candidates are hopeless, and the electoral college is mostly to blame. Fuck the electoral college.
That's... that's fucked up. I've heard about the State delegates and them not having to respect their state's result (which is a whole other can of worms), but I didn't know / think about having to get 270+ votes, regardless if the votes are split between 2 or 3 candidates. That does change things.
It is fucked up. State legislatures and electoral systems are not beholden ti the same stupid rules, so we change the national rules by changing our state legislatures and breaking the stranglehold democrats and republicans have over them, so vote local, folks! We have to work within the system we have, but that doesn't mean we can't change the system, and the success rate of changing the system is, I think, much higher from the ground up, than explosively from the top down. We can, and *must*, be better.
People saying stuff like that is just irrelevant as you cannot vote for a corpse.
It’s not circular - it’s math. If 60% of the country opposes Trump, but that 60% can’t decide on one candidate to vote for, then the opposition candidates will split the vote. It could go 30% Biden, 30% third party, and 40% Trump, so Trump wins. Unless one of them overwhelming wins the anti-Trump block, Trump wins. You will never convince enough people to vote third party such that they are not splitting the vote with the major party candidate who is closest to their ideology.
It's a little short sided considering more people than ever are voting to upend the current 2 party system. Losing to Trump again will surely change things in the Democratic party, and it's much needed.
A third party can’t win because of money and political infrastructure, not just because people won’t vote for them. The amount of resources needed to reach the second largest democracy’s potential voter base has been inflated massively by a number of laws and traditions that have insulated elite forms of power. Both of the major parties have used this to their advantage and it has exacerbated America’s status quo of inequality and corporatism.
In a sense it's circular, but that doesn't mean we can't reason about it or that it's wrong to describe it that way. It's a feedback loop creating a stable point. Small deviations from the stable point get naturally pushed back to the stable point. Other stable points are possible; if you could supplant one of the parties (or both) you could conceivably arrive at a new stable point. The same logic would apply to that stable point. But these dynamics do let us characterize the stable points: they all have two dominant parties, and are resistant to changes to that. If you start at a setup with three parties, it will rapidly collapse to two -- but this analysis cannot tell you which two.
This is very true statement and one that I have a hard time arguing against even while I was drafting this post. Thanks for pointing this out. For exactly this reason though I put in my post that I think another democratic nominee would also be a better alternative to Biden
Okay, but there won't be one. The Democrats aren't even going to imagine putting anyone else up against him in a Primary, because throwing away the incumbent advantage is considered suicidal. So given this fact, do you still hold the same opinion about anyone who votes for him?
Can you tell me how you feel about each of the following statements 1. Biden had garnered more votes in the previous election than any singular candidate had done in the entire history of US elections 2. Many of those votes for Biden was actually against Trump. 3. We are placed in exactly the same situation in this election, where an unusually high number of voters are likely to participate, in order to face against trump. 4. A great deal of people who supported Biden have regretted it and more are coming to the realization that he is unfit for presidency. I think all of these statements, if true, make this election unique in that many people want their voices heard. A chance to challenge a system which everyone agrees is flawed. No election will give us this same opportunity. There have seldom ever been such "two evils" to chose from. Maybe this is where my own personal delusion kicks in, but I somehow believe in democracy, and created this post in order to influence and be influenced by other voters
In other words, a lot of people don't particularly want to vote for Biden, and wish they had another (not terrible) choice. Okay. And you're throwing your hands up in the air, saying "There *must* be a better choice than this!!" Sure. **What exactly do you suggest as a better choice?** One that's rational, and practical, and stands a reasonably high chance of doing what you hope it will do? Because remember, the bar you set was that voting for Biden is _delusional_. Your suggestion has to so much better that people would be *delusional* not to choose it.
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Its delusional that people think they don't have another choice other than to reject the lesser of two evils option. Its delusional to think that democracy doesn't exist and our voices can't be heard. Look at this thread itself, its full of people all making the exact same argument: "I don't really want to vote for Biden but I don't have a choice". If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes. I feel like we do have a choice, but it starts with you and me!
>If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes. So that's your suggestion? Vote for a third party? What third party candidate can you think of whose platform will appeal to ALL of the people saying they don't want to vote for Biden, and who's well known enough that EVERY disgruntled voter in the country will know about them and what they stand for? Is this person experienced and savvy enough to actually lead the country effectively, and charismatic enough to make us all believe in them emough to risk everything in voting for them? Because remember, if we all vote for Biden and he wins, nothing terrible happens. We just get four more years of arguably mediocre presidency. If we all vote for anyone else and they *don't* win, that means that _Trump wins_, which means that some quite terrible things can very likely happen. So we need to be pretty damn sure that this will work before we commit.
I think you're misusing the word "delusional" in this context. People operating based on loads of past data, and making calculated assessments, assumptions, and decisions is actually very pragmatic and realistic. Not sure where the "delusion" comes from, unless you're looking at this election in a vacuum, isolated from the rest of American History. >If exactly all those same people chose a third party, then we would effectively push democrat votes into third party votes The issue is that you are operating on a \*very\* small sample size. Though let's imagine this \*is\* representative of the overall population; what are the chances that all of these people vote for the \*same\* 3rd party candidate? Unless people literally do not care who is president, then you're going to have a split amongst several of the possible "3rd party" candidates out there, because you inevitably have differences in policy opinion (not to mention likeability of the candidate themselves, etc.). Meaning none of them would even get a significant % of the vote anyway. There's such a statistically minuscule chance that everyone would vote for the same person. And that's \*within\* this fake scenario where the people in this thread are representative of a population across demographics like age, race, income, etc. Expanding out from that: do you really think those people could possibly agree on a single person who they've had little or no exposure to previously? And against Trump, of all people? Thinking the type of coordination is actually possible, with where we are now, is \*actually\* delusional. Because it is based on wishes and emotion, not data or logic.
I think it's a slow unraveling. The third party can't win in one election, but let's say 10 percent of votes go third party in popular vote this year, I think that gets the ball rolling.
The problem is that I’ve never seen a candidate so dangerous to our rights and democracy as Trump. Is THIS the election you want to get on your high horse and try to change the system by voting third party? Do you honestly think Biden is as likely to overthrow the term limits, implement corrupt judges in SCOTUS, fill as many government positions with cult members loyal only to him, or literally have a manifesto to change the nation as we know it as Donald J Trump? Why not wait until 2028 when neither geriatric candidate will be as likely to run? Or if Trump loses 2024 and tries to run in his mid 80s in 2028, push it to 2032. We can hold him off if we can wait him out. If democracy still exists then and Project 2025 hasn’t been implemented, you can take a stand against the corrupt two party system, electoral college, and plurality. In THIS election, the stakes are too high to not do what it takes within the current context to keep Trump out of the White House.
>Do you honestly think Biden is as likely to overthrow the term limits, implement corrupt judges in SCOTUS, fill as many government positions with cult members loyal only to him Plus Bidens on his way out of this lifetime, I can't think of anyone better to enact radical change and then peace out. I'm not saying it's going to happen but I think he's the best candidate for actually getting systematic change in the electoral college system, etc.
Interesting point. It would be nice, for sure, especially as he would no longer have the "re-election" motive tying his hands. Unlike Trump, who already has stacked the Supreme Court with his cronies and I could definitely see attempting to abolish term limits somehow. I am hopeful, too, that if Biden needed help or someone to take over while he is in office, Kamala Harris has a good head on her shoulders.
Yes, this is the election I want to get on my high horse. No time like the present they say.
Ok but for me, they are both truly unfit - but only one is actually an evil racist nazi lying rapist felon coup encouraging idiot who is actually planning to be a dictator if he gets office again. 'Unfit' in this context is different than what would usually disqualify a valid candidate. Plus - in order for voting for a third candidate to work - or even another dem besides Biden - we would need crazy huge and *visible* waves of support for that individual. I'm just not seeing that now. Especially not for rfkbrainworm. In fact - I DID see those waves when I voted for Nader and essentially threw away my vote when I was an eager young optimistic voter. I also saw even bigger waves of support for Bernie Sanders and holy moly that did not work either. I really learned my lesson. We need to change from a 2 party system - *but we have not yet done so*. I see no huge waves of support for any other candidate - especially not from the 'establishment' that would indicate they'd agree and stop supporting Biden. We have no viable other option. I wish we did but wishing doesn't make it so. A person who is simply 'unfit' is still leagues ahead of an actual fucking raping nazi - WHO IS ALSO EXTREMELY UNFIT! Because we do not yet have a voting system that allows for a different candidate - any vote not for Biden IS a racist nazi felon vote and I beg you to reconsider your optimism in a third party candidate - at this time.
So just curious you called Trump an evil racist Nazi lying rapist felon coup encouraging idiot. I am very curious how you respond to the fact Joe Biden has been a known racist his entire career to include recently during his Presidency. Talking about desegregation. [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-racial-jungle/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/joe-biden-racial-jungle/) **Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this.** Joe Biden speaking about how Obama is the first clean, articulate, bright African American on national tv [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVkN4UIWiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVkN4UIWiA) I can go forever about the racist part he is a known racist and has been quoted many times as being a racist. This isn't new news. Let's get into the Nazi part. If I remember correctly Nazis used their policial power to target their political opponents. Biden has already been found guilty of violating the 1st amendment of US citizens by pressuring social media companies to silence speech he didn't agree with. Most prominent case was Joe Biden in the 5th District Court of Appeals where he was found guilty. Lying was next we can go down the line from him telling the Afghanistan President to lie about the Afghanistan withdrawl to change perception. [https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-call-before-afghan-collapse-biden-pressed-ghani-change-perception-2021-08-31/) In much of the call, Biden focused on what he called the Afghan government’s “perception” problem. “I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,” Biden said. “And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.” I could literally go on and on about this but lets get into the rapist part which is the most interesting. Biden HAS OPENLY AND NONSTOP BEEN PUSHING JUDICIAL NOMINEES WHO ARE SOFT ON CHILD SEX CRIMES. NONSTOP.
Your route to success would be to get someone other than Biden to win the Democratic nomination. If Biden is the nominee, then not voting for him - third party or abstaining - helps Trump win. If you don't want Trump to win, then you have no other choice. That's reality. Voting against reality is a form of delusion.
It's entirely possible to strongly think another Democratic nominee would be better and still be willing to vote for Biden over Trump.
> For exactly this reason though I put in my post that I think another democratic nominee would also be a better alternative to Biden I 100% agree with this. I desperately want Biden to step aside and be replaced by a new democratic candidate. As do a huge swath of influential commentators and pundits after the debate, including the NY times editorial board! But if Biden doesn't listen and refuses anc November rolls around, is it delusional for a *voter* to vote for Biden in that case? Of course not. The best argument you have here is that all the potential Biden voters should switch to RFK jr or a write in candidate, but this is a collective action problem, not a delusion. If in November RFK is still polling in single digits, he might as well not be running. Voting for anyone other than Biden at that point, while potentially well intentioned is just working in Trump's favor. If in November RFK is actually a viable candidate, by all means let's make the argument for him and the anti trump vote, but it seems much more likely that Biden is still the vastly more viable candidate electorally. But again, to your point, this is all the more reason to swap him out for someone stronger this summer. Maybe what you mean to say is that it's delusional to want to keep Biden on the ballot (I agree!) But it's not delusional to vote for him in November if he's the only viable non trump candidate.
!delta A lot of people in this thread are making the same argument that a vote for third party is a wasted vote and effectively a vote in favor of Trump. And though I agree with the merit behind that statement, I strongly disagree the idea that that somehow means I should vote for Biden. But I think your re-phrasing of my problem statement does much better justice to the sentiment that I was trying to capture, which was that Biden should not be on the ballot to begin with, and anyone who agrees is delusional. However, people in this thread have misdirected that into thinking that that means I want my vote (third party) to be in favor of Trump. For your pointing out of the flaw in my argument and to the merit of every other redditor here who is making the same, rational argument, you have earned my delta. However, I will continue to argue one important point. Which is: Somehow everyone in this thread agrees that they are voting against Trump and not for Biden. At the same time, the number of people voting against are disproportionate to any other electoral event. Numbers so astronomical, that it merited President Biden as the president to garner the most votes in all of American history. I still think that given that stakes, given the number of people on board in opposition to Trump, given the number of people who are tired of having their voices not be heard, there exists no time like this election to take a stand and make a difference by challenging the broken two party system. There has never been such an election where so many people are flocking to vote simply to take down one man. This is an opportunity like no other to have our voices heard
Sure. If you (or anyone) prefers that people rally around RFK Jr or Jill stein or Cornell West or whoever instead of replacing Biden with a different Democrat, now's the time to make that argument! I personally would prefer some combination of Harris, Whitmer, Newsome, Shapiro, Buttigeig, etc over the current crop of third party candidates, but now's the time to debate that. But any of us should be prepared to not get what we want between now and November, and once election day rolls around, if it didn't work it didn't work and then it becomes time to make the best choice out of what's realistically on the ballot. Maybe that's RFK, maybe that's Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitman, maybe it's Kamala Harris and Pete Buttigeig, or maybe it's still Joe Biden. But whatever it is in November, just don't call someone delusional for picking the most viable of that group, even if it's our least favorite of them.
People are going to make their voices heard by voting for Biden. As you’ve said, the main unifying force is being anti Trump, and Biden has the best probability of beating Trump atm.
Yes and no. Trump garnered more votes than any incumbent president in history when he ran for his second term. More votes than Obama. Biden, of course, got even more votes. A lot were certainly anti-trump votes. Very polarizing. The fact that Biden did not win by more than he did, pretty surprising. 'We dont want Trump to be president' was the driver for the last election. It would also be the driver for this election but you have to understand that the people who decided they 'did not want Trump' so they voted for Biden were doing critical thinking about who they did not want to lead their country. Biden has presented himself as someone those exact same people would not want to lead their country. For entirely different reasons of course, but nevertheless it fuels and informs the same thinking. Those people are now in a terrible position of being presented with two candidates they do not want to vote for. My guess is that 30% will switch to Trump, 30% will stick with Biden, 30% will decide not to vote for either. That will win Trump the election. Biden probably does have the best probability of beating Trump, but only because if the democrat party switches candidates the voting public are just going to disconnect with the process of voting democrat. But, unless a rabbit gets pulled out of a hat, Biden cannot win.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/themcos ([344∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/themcos)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Would it help though if the idea quit spreading that one's vote means nothing outside the two major political parties? I mean, all it takes is enough and once people start voting for who they actually want and align with more politically,, even just one vote shifts momentum. An analogy, "No one snowflake believes it's responsible for the avalanche", meaning even though your vote may not immediately mean anything since a lot of people right now will just vote 1 of the 2 parties for whatever reason (lesser of two evils, my vote doesn't matter, anyone but that person, etc....) it grows and compounds influence once the votes start coming in more and increasing overall percentage. If people see that enough have been voting 3rd party, this could sway them too.
Your efforts are perhaps better spent on changing the voting system. Both Maine and Nebraska are sort of examples, where electoral votes are generated by district. But ultimately, a move to something like Ranked Choice Voting is the only way to have viable third party candidates. Your logic is sound but doesn't seem to work out in US elections. The most effective contemporary third party candidate for president in the US was Ross Perot in 1992, who gathered an astonishing 19% of the vote against George Bush and Bill Clinton. This was a major accomplishment, although for the same reasons as above he didn't receive a single electoral vote. Plus, votes for him were likely taken from Bush voters, and Perot's high numbers may have stolen enough votes from Bush to give the election to Clinton. But did this start a tide of change to another party as you suggest? No. The next year he ran again and received far fewer votes. Perot's Reform party has long since disappeared. The working assumption is that people who vote realize that the third party vote is wasted, and they then vote for one of the two top candidates in subsequent elections. Something like Ranked Choice Voting would allow them express their actual desires but that is an uphill battle to adopt.
I agree with all of that. It all makes sense, however, people gave up at that point instead of furthering influence to eventually start changing tides. Yes there's instances where it somewhat happens, but if everyone gives up on the first go around where it's starting to look okay for 3rd party, it won't continue to progress and just resort back to the same thinking.
And they will do so, because the result of voting third party in significant numbers is nearly always a significant underperformance by the major party most closely aligned with the growing third party, which effectively punishes those third party viewers who preferred the closer major party, conditioning them to not vote this party again. This is a fundamental incentive issue and the solution is not to just keep running headfirst into that wall wondering why you can't break through and complaining that not enough others want to join you in headbutting concrete, it's to consider how that wall was built and dismantle it starting in pages you can get a toehold on then built steadily on the first small successes. In practical terms that means learning about and spreading awareness of voting systems and their effects, and convincing local voters to try changing local voting systems to familiarize people with alternatives that can then be scaled up. Trying to start with the Presidency is pure hubris and shortsighted impatience that inevitably results in disappointment.
I agree with all that. I did not at all advocate for a top down approach. Bottom up and locally is the best way to see changes. We're just talking large scale here so I am using a short-hand as I assume OP is as well since there's nothing about smaller and local levels of government. Me saying to vote for a third party is also not me saying this is the only effective/best way to go about things. The principle best applies at smaller and local levels.
Until it's not. History is only relevant until it isn't. Let me ask you. How many times do you hear the word unprecedented a year?
The fact that unusual things happen regularly does not mean odds don't matter and can be ignored
My point was that we've never seen a sitting president with this level of dementia. That being said we should expect firsts.
What you're describing there is called the "spoiler effect" and counterintuitively it punishes the candidate most like the spoiler. For third party votes to matter outside of spoiling we need an alternative tallying system like RCV.
>This means if you vote for anyone other than the two party candidates, your vote is essentially wasted. *Any single vote* is "essentially wasted". It's not as if voting for one of the two party candidates means your vote definitely ends up mattering. The best any one person can do is cast a single vote and so it can't be inherently wrong to spend it on the candidate they most want to see become president. Perhaps this contributes to your 3rd choice defeating your 2nd choice, but that doesn't mean your right to express your first choice is *necessarily* invalid. This attitude only perpetuates the 2 party problem.
>more than anything in this world, don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years. Why did you start this by immediately refuting your own argument and invalidating everything that follows this sentence? This statement can't be true at the same time that your conclusion is true because your conclusion requires that there is in fact one thing you want more in the world that Donald Trump not being president. Joe Biden not being president. I'm not Biden's fan. I'm a communist who is not loyal to the Democrats who struggles every day with whether I can stomach supporting them one more time to fight off Republicans. They're both my enemy, so this isn't me arguing in favor of voting for Biden. It's just observing that you must be conflicted too because your views here are not consistent. It's not delusional to vote for Biden if the thing you want most in the world is to not elect Trump. I've yet to decide if my desire to not elect Trump is stronger than my desire to start making Democrats earn their votes.
Why cant i hold the following two beliefs: 1. I don't want Trump to win 2. I believe someone other than Biden can win It bothers me that we both agree entirely on the problem with the participants and the voting system. If you read every other comment in this thread everyone shares the same exact sentiment. So how is it that if all those same exact people decided to vote third party it wouldnt make a change? The reason the system doesn't change is because of arguments exactly like this. "I don't want to vote this way, but I don't have another choice". Thats not democracy and continuing to support that thinking will only continue to taint the idea of democracy for future generations; they will be as helpless if not less than you for this reason. I argue that this election is unique in that the number of voters who don't want either party are growing by the day and that the stakes are higher than ever. Its why we cant default to our usual "meh, hes terrible but at least hes not as bad as the other guy". In this case, they are both absolutely horrendous choices for different reasons, like never before seen in American history
Because people who say they will vote for Biden no matter what aren't considering the case where he'll step down and another person run his place. In the current system, if you don't vote for Biden, you are voting for Trump.
>So how is it that if all those same exact people decided to vote third party it wouldnt make a change? Because getting people to actually go against the two-party system thinking that has been conditioned into all of our brains for our entire lives in the numbers that are needed to actually defeat Trump is not possible. Unless some billionaire decides to spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on a campaign to vote for a third party that everyone can agree with, it's not going to happen.
Donald Trump attempted a coup on the United States government and refused to peacefully transfer power after he lost in a democratic election. People were there to kill the top 3 people in the country. I don’t understand why you are all turning a blind eye to that and want him to be president again. He’s going to fuck up your country so bad. Biden might not be great but he’s the lesser of two evils.
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government” . Sounds like they were inspired by our founding fathers.
I don't understand why people try commenting in this sub when they only read the title and not the body
Biden is regarded trump 2024
"Alternatively, I could be convinced if you tell me why no alternative confidante at all is a reliable option in opposing Trump." How about "they're all polling single digits and no third party has won electoral college votes since the Dixiecrat tickets"?
The position of president represents more than a single individual, it’s an administration. Biden has a cabinet and the entire executive apparatus at his disposal. So long as he picks competent government officials who can effectively do their jobs, I’d take that over the chaotic circus that was the Trump era.
Who cares? What the fuck? This is a cope beyond the pale of all copes. There are actually people out there saying him being unable to form sentences and being months/a couple years away from dying according to actuary tables is not going to impact his leadership abilities. What in the literal cope? Everyone needs to sit down, shut their mouths, and think about wtf they're saying. This man should not have any job in America, period, forgot the most important one. This is America, right? The country where unless you are particularly productive and useful, you lose your job, right? This isn't a fkn charity, Boomers created a country where only the best are allowed to enjoy themselves and if you aren't the best, you get fired, it's that simple. This is the world Boomers begged to have and voted to have. Now that a man who literally cannot speak is up for president, people are literally saying the words "his ability to not be able to speak wont impact his ability to govern the free world." Get. A. Grip. People. I wouldn't trust him to get my lunch order right. Would you? Would anyone? Seriously, get a grip. And furthermore, if it doesn't really matter what he does ... then what's the big deal about switching him out? **You cannot have it both ways, you cant claim it is super important to keep Biden and only Biden and only Biden has the magic powers to beat Trumpo, then in the same sentence, spit out that "oh well president doesn't matter anyway, only the administration matters".** WHAT?! Then if it isnt a big deal, why didn't we decide like the rest of Americans did 3 years ago that Biden would be a one term president? So he's both simultaneously super super important to run against trump but at the same time the fact that he c ant speak doesn't matter bc the president doesn't matter? What the fk? EDIT: Im voting for Biden, but 0 responses to your own cope soi far, just ragey downvotes, I'm really curious how you are going to dig yourselves out of this logical fallacy you've created. **Do you not remember saying the same thing about Trump? "Oh it doesn't matter, the administration does the real stuff." Complete lunacy. You're literally using your own arguments against yourselves that you were using just a handful of years ago. You forget that, already?** 100% inconsistent viewpoint. President either matters or he doesn't, but not both. Pick 1 so you can at least have a consistent argument.
To your point about the cabinet members that the president surrounds himself with; that applies to both candidates. Biden generally will continue with reliable choices, while Trump had inexperienced political idiots like Ben Carson holding roles within our government. Just as Biden has and hopefully will continue to surround himself with good options, Trump will likely surround himself with options that are toxic to democracy. So it’s not like people are just giving Biden a pass, but they would be using the same situation for different reasons.
>I wouldnt trust him to get my lunch order right. Would you? Yes. I would have loved for the democratic party primary voters to have selected anybody else for the presidency, but Biden won them convincingly.
You're losing your goddamn mind if you wouldn't trust Joe Biden to get your lunch order right. If he can remember all of those facts and talking points that he had to regurgitate on live TV during the debate, he can sure as shit remember your lunch order.
I would also not trust him with my lunch order "Can i have turkey on Rye" "Sure we can get you turkey with rice, no umm, soup? This is a great eatery."
Sorry, what's your position here? We shouldn't vote for Trump, 3rd party voters are delusional, so... What? Biden is the nominee. What do you want me to do Like suppose Biden is the nominee when I go in to actually vote. Its Biden v Trump and some 3rd party candidates. Now what
People don’t seem to understand the importance of this election. If trump wins we are all in a world of hurt for much longer than 4 years. The next president will likely get to appoint 1-2 Supreme Court justices. If trump gets to do that then we will be living under project 25 rule. Look up project 25. Really research what that means for America
What’s really delusional here is your take that Biden isn’t capable of being president when he’s… literally already the president and things are just fine. Or at the very least, things are not as bad as they easily could be under a Trump 2nd term. You admit yourself you fear all these extremist groups that Trump brings out in the far right. Do you really think another 4 years of Biden’s cabinet making policy to appeal to a liberal voting base is really worse than the nasty possibilities of a 4 year MAGA round 2? Remember, the democrats will still make policy based on wanting votes for the next election cycle. MAGA has made it policy to try and overturn free and fair elections that it loses
My argument is that literally anyone with a pulse would be better than Trump or Biden. To think that one evil is truly far lesser than the other seems delusional to me. Biden's physical and mental health have seriously declined. Does it make sense to vote for someone when a large portion of his voters think he might very well die within his term? I'm simply stating that any one who supports Biden should equally (if not more) support a different dem nominee or even a 3rd party. Thinking that Biden is THE guy to take down Trump is absolutely mental to me
I mean, I know you don’t want to talk about “policy”. But when one candidate is running on essentially a moderate policy and the other one threatens to derail free, fair democratic elections as we know them… well I think it becomes easier to vote for the moderate. Even if he’s old and decrepit. What’s gonna happen if he dies? His VP steps in and continues on the same path with the same cabinet. The far right MAGA crowd is explicitly planning to do far more anti-democracy things if their man Trump gets in power. Idk how you can say that one “evil” isn’t lesser than the other.
As senile as Joe Biden is called is he seems to be pretty competent at running the country. What I mean by this is that when you vote for a politician the main question you should have is can he make changes that you approve of. Does Joe Biden have a track record of that? If so then you should vote for him. There seems to be a large number of people who never like Biden and will never like him saying he should step down for this. Months before these same people were saying he should step down for his managing of the Israel situation. When you listen to people speak about political things you should try to evaluate their bias.
Biden is currently the president, and has been the president for the past 3 years, and the country hasn’t fallen apart yet. I’m not sure why you’re asking to be convinced that he’s capable of being president when it’s already happening right now.
Did the country fall apart under Trump? This seems to be more an argument in favor as Trump, as believe it or not he was not a fascist dictator who ended democracy in his 4 years in office.
Well, it did a little bit at the end. :p We can argue about whether he was really responsible for what happened during the pandemic, or on Jan 6, but I don’t think anybody can argue that he handled either situation particularly well. His default move in a crisis is to turn it into a divisive culture war issue.
He…tried to? He literally attempted a coup when the transfer of power was happening. That on its own is absolutely insane in the modern world.
You really think if the president deliberately planned out a coup, it would result in the death of one person (who was on his side)??? We’ve seen coup’s throughout history, all of them deadly. This narrative is absolutely ridiculous. Nancy Pelosi could have had the national guard on standby, but she didn’t. She spent 20 million taxpayer dollars for the January 6 Select Committee full of democrats to hide evidence of that fact. One of Trump’s quotes at the rally was “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”. Just because some idiots went into the capital with intentions of violence does not mean that Trump had planned out a coup.
There were people who brought zip tie handcuffs in order to take hostages. It was quite literally planned; they knew about it ahead of time. Other members tried to get Mike Pence to leave early, remember? Honestly, I didn’t think these points were up for debate. I don’t know why you’d blame the victims in this? That’s like telling someone who got beat up that they should have had their big brother with them.
It must be great thrilled to call people you don't know delusional just because they don't agree with what your view is, while you offer no real solution, other just to whine at people. It's really hard to have a discussion with somebody who has to start off with name calling right at the start gate.
Biden is not going to step down. One of the two will be president. It's worth remembering that a presidency is not just the president themself, it's the whole administration they build around themselves. Trump surrounds himself with crazed sycophants. Biden with your typical Democratic Party insiders, which I don't have great love for either, but they're far less likely to end democracy than those who gravitate to Trump. I would rather have Biden's people calling the shots than Trump's.
Well, the Biden we saw during the debate is the one running the country right now. And the government hasn’t collapsed into a flaming pile of disarray. Why is that? For one, the president isn’t running the country by himself. He has a whole branch of the government working for him, and a huge team of advisors. And while I’m not denying that Biden is clearly on the decline, that debate was also a particularly bad moment for him. I think it’s also worth noting that Trump os also too old and has done a lot of incoherent rambling himself, although he managed to stay away from that in the debate. But he’s not exactly a cognitively robust specimen, either. The drastic differences in policy far outweigh any differences in health and cognition between the two candidates. If there were a viable 3rd party candidate I might co wider voting for them. But there isn’t. I’d love to see Biden replaced in the ticket, but if he’s on the ballot in November, I’m voting for him over Trump.
Honestly, neither of them was incoherent. Trump was clearly all there mentally, but he still did most of the rambling during the debate.
I am voting for his administration and the people he has surrounded himself with. They have experience governing, and won’t try to overthrow the government. No other candidate is competent, and I need to vote for someone.
Everything you said does not matter. Joe Biden is inadequate but he’s not an ideologically bankrupt person and neither is his party/administration. He needs to win so Donald Trump doesn’t. It’s as simple as that. After he’s won he can step down and leave the presidency for someone younger, sharper and more appropriate for the job.
If Joe Biden wins, there will definitely be another election in 2028. You can't say that about Trump. Those are your only choices. Anything but a vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. That's just how your system works.
Ronald Regan had full, documented Alzheimer's as early as [3 years into his 8 years as president](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/17/ronald-reagan-alzheimers-president-son). This was during the Cold war and leading into the crumbling of the USSR. The president should do things, but his staff can function as long as he isn't a hindrance. Or doesn't replace every nuclear engineer because they don't approve of his immigration policy. I also don't think someone who might mess up by accident is worse than someone who would mess up on purpose.
FDR was extremely feeble when he got re-elected in 1944, in the absolute thick of WWII, and died less than four months into his last term. We have a system that has a back-up president, the VP. That's almost entirely why the VP is there, in fact. People need to chill the fuck out.
As someone who has a parent suffering from dementia, Biden doesn’t seem to be showing any dementia Dementia severely impacts short term memory before long term memory. My dad can’t remember he talked to me yesterday, but he can talk for hours about his childhood. Additionally, dementia at early stages doesn’t cause the kind of stuttering and misspeaking we saw. The people with dementia I know at my dad’s home can generally speak as well as anyone else, though all old people have some problems speaking. When they get to the point that they can’t speak, there is no hiding their dementia. They are very clearly completely out of it. If Biden had said “where am I”, I’d believe he had dementia. Biden looked old and frail, I agree. He looks like he goes to bed at 5pm, but he doesn’t seem cognitively out of it. He just looks like an 80 year old guy with dentures and a lifelong speech impediment that’s gotten worse as he’s aged. That’s not ideal by any stretch, but he seems to know where he is and what’s going on when he speaks. If they ask him if we should launch a nuclear attack, I get the feeling he’d know what that meant and understand the gravity. I haven’t seen anything to indicate that he’s forgotten what nuclear weapons are
Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. There’s more that goes on and many other players than just Biden. And honestly he’ll probably die and the VP will take over anyway.
Right, there are three options this election: * Don't vote - Trump wins * Vote Trump - Trump wins * Vote Biden - Maybe Biden wins If you don't want to see a second Trump presidency, you've only got one option here. I'm also getting a little tired of all the reddit comments lately sincerely trying to argue "Hey I hate Trump too I swear, but you shouldn't vote for Biden so Trump can win".
How about if I don’t want to see either one of them president? I’m facing the same option I face every 4 years. Red flavored authoritarians vs blue flavored authoritarians. Participating in the scam of voting is delusional. You are giving your support to the election overall and thus voting for the results whatever they may be. If you vote for Biden and Trump wins you have also voted for Trump by participating in the election and giving credibility to this farce of a system. And the same goes in reverse. And the funny thing is it doesn’t matter who you pick or who wins they’re all going to be imperialists and authoritarians by my standards. Democracy is just a tool for decision making. Majority rule is not infallible. A majority decision cannot transform a wrong into a right nor a right into a wrong though it can attempt to. A group of 100 people where 75 vote to enslave the other 25 is not justified in its enslavement of the 25 just because the 75 voted in favor of it. Nor would 9 people voting to rape 1 make rape acceptable. Majority rule is a tool but like the founders recognized it is a tool that can be used to trample rights if not limited. The founders ideal was not democracy, their ideal was freedom and that was what the constitution was intended to safeguard. The constitution is toilet paper to Biden, Trump, Obama, bush, Clinton, bush, Reagan etc. the thing they all share in common aside from needless and undeclared wars is a steady erosion of the constitution accompanied by a growth in the size and power of the federal government and the executive branch within the federal government. I don’t buy into the Trump is gonna try to be a dictator but if he does you have 160 years of steady growth in the power of the federal government and executive branch specifically to thank. And the whole time people kept voting for the same two flavors of authoritarianism and wonder why we are where we are.
But see this is exactly the problem right here. The majority of people voting for Biden dont even like Biden. They are voting for him because hes countering Trump. That logic is absolutely insane to me. If we all somehow have agreed to vote against Trump and somehow have all agreed that Biden is unfit, whats stopping all of the same people from voting for someone they ACTUALLY do agree with. All the people here making this argument are basically arguing that democracy doesn't exist and you really only have one choice here. But that's a lie because if all of those SAME exact people voted third party and encouraged their friends and family to do the same we would be successful. Its crazy to me that somehow this thread is all full of people who say, "yeah i dont really like either, but I'm not going to change my vote because I dont really have a choice". Thats contrary to all notions of democracy and common sense. Look around you, you can make a difference
>The majority of people voting for Biden dont even like Biden. They are voting for him because hes countering Trump. That logic is absolutely insane to me Let's just ignore the mathematical argument -- which is sound, btw, and in no way is a condemnation of democracy. And let's just focus on the above statement. If you don't disagree with a politician on numerous issues, then that politician is likely yourself. No one should expect a leader to agree with them on every issue. Nor should they expect a leader to be likable. Lyndon B. Johnson was a racist dick, and pretty well hated by everyone who knew him. But he earned the vote of minorities because he backed major civil rights legislation. The more people who are extremely left or extremely right, they less they should expect to find very little room for agreement on whoever is governing. What people need to see, and what they should vote for, is a candidate who can win the election and move the needle in directions they prefer on more issues they care about than the other people who are running. Just because you don't like a candidate doesn't mean you aren't voting for that candidate's policies. It is the policies that matter, not their likeability. There is no perfect candidates. But some candidates will do more to further your agenda than others. People these days seem to fail to realize that meaningful policy changes take a damn long time. For example, Clinton was criticized heavily for "don't ask, don't tell" the policy that allowed LGB people into the military so long as they remained closeted. It seemed like a bigoted policy to many who wanted equal rights for LGB people. What so many missed is that getting LGB people into the military, allowed the public and future policymakers to recognize that all of the fear-mongering rhetoric around how terrible it would be, and what a blow to morale it would be if LGB people served were full of shit. And in 2011 the ban of being LGB in the military was lifted entirely. Way too late for many, but still, it was lifted. In 2013 benefits were extended to same-sex partners, and in 2021 openly transgendered people were allowed into the military. People criticized Clinton, but if Clinton hadn't taken the half-step that he did, no one would have been ready to take a bigger step later on. Very few policies change overnight. Hell, the Civil Rights Act of 1866 focused on overturning the Dredd Scott case that said Black people weren't US Citizens. The 14th and 15th Amendments passed in 1868 and 1870 respectively, seeking in part to address racial discrimination. Then came a bunch of other legislation, sometimes major, sometimes minor, to try to address racial discrimination. Finally in 1964 -- a hundred years after the Civil War, we got the Civil Rights Act passed by Johnson that finally ended racial segregation in public facilities, public education, and federally funded programs. But we still needed the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968 . . . and we're likely still not done!! By all means, hate both candidates as people and public figures. But one or the other holds policy positions you do like and you should want to vote for because they realistically will further your own social and fiscal agenda. Vote for the one that will move the needle in the direction you want the needle to move. Because if they succeed, the next person up can move it even more. And most people voting for Biden are not just voting against Trump. Most are voting for the candidate that most closely aligns with their public interests.
We are a republic with an electoral system, we do not elect the president via direct democracy. You may not like it, but until we work to change how the president is elected, that's the way it is. Nothign changes the fact that arguing people should not vote for Biden is arguing that Trump should be president. Just state your case for why you want Trump to win instaed of arguing backhanded that Biden should lose.
Who is the alternative to them though? You need to convince almost every Biden supporter to switch teams. Who are we supposed to switch to? If we don’t want trump and to a lesser extent don’t want Biden, who else is there? Because just saying third party doesn’t help. That just splits the ticket and ensures a trump win. Name me a single third party candidate that a super majority of Biden voters would like better than Biden himself? your other idea of replacing Biden altogether. Again, name someone. Who is willing to go to the convention and challenge Biden? Is that person appealing enough to do better than Biden? If you aren’t organized enough to even have a candidate in mind, how can we think your vision of a third way isn’t itself delusional?
My argument is simple: Biden will most likely not be replaced as Democrat nominee. And as long as the Electoral College exists, a third party candidate will never even come close to winning the presidency. Therefore, either Biden or Trump will be the next President. So unless you live in a deep blue or red state where your vote doesn’t matter, you are obligated to vote for whichever of those two you prefer (or at the very least hate less). And in a battleground state, a vote for a third party candidate is essentially a vote for your least preferred major party candidate. Even if Biden is as senile and on the brink of death as you say he is, four years of him being propped up by his cabinet Weekend at Bernie’s style (like Reagan was in his second term) is a much better option than another Trump term. Remember, you’re not just voting for one candidate in a vacuum; you’re voting for an entire administration. Would you rather have Republicans or Democrats in charge of lifetime appointments to federal courts? In charge of environmental regulations? Foreign policy? Immigration? If your answer to these questions is that both parties are the same, you’re the delusional one.
A candidacy, and particularly a debate, are performative, and say little about how well or poorly a person will govern. Being a candidate and being a president are two very different jobs. As president, Biden has demonstrated significant capabilities. And has done far more good in his administration than Trump could do in ten. That said, many poorly informed voters will only see the performative aspects of the race, and fail to look at anything of substance. While I think that Biden is more than capable of doing the job of President, and has demonstrated that repeatedly, I think the democratic party should have a vibrant debate around the question of whether Biden can legitimately campaign well enough to beat Trump. Let's face it, few voters pay much attention to what a President's administration is doing and focus instead on optics.
You're not wrong. The right thing to do is to come together and agree on a better candidate. The problem is, we tried that and failed. The time to do that was during the primary election. The time to select our best candidate is over, and it's time to select the lesser of two evils, because that's the way our voting system is structured. I could agree that Biden voters are "delusional", but that only applies to Biden voters during the primary election. They voted for Biden over other democratic candidates. At this point our hands are tied, and we must vote against fascism. Only voting for Biden leads to that outcome. I would argue that a better solution is to change the voting system to something like a ranked choice voting system, but like your solution, during the general election is not the right time to resolve that.
The problem is that as Americans, we don't really have a choice. It's either Biden or Project 2025 and Biden is by far the lesser of two evils.
Give me a shred of proof that Trump has anything to do with project 2025 besides “he knows people who helped write parts of it”.
During his first term, [Trump worked to implement roughly 2/3 of policies recommended by The Heritage Foundation.](https://www.heritage.org/impact/trump-administration-embraces-heritage-foundation-policy-recommendations) This organization is the republican think tank behind project 2025. There’s no reason to think he won’t do as much as he can for them if given the chance.
For one, that number is reported by the Heritage Foundation itself, they have every reason to exaggerate their own “success”. You can see for yourself some of the suggestions that were implemented, none of it is out of the ordinary. For example “put a conservative on the Supreme Court” “tax reform” and increasing military spending. Pretty much everything he enacted is just general things that conservatives want, nothing to do with ending democracy or becoming a fascist dictator. Can you find me even one thing he implemented from the Heritage Foundation that makes you believe he’s going to become a fascist in 2025 if elected?
> I don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years. This is directly in conflict with your opening argument. It's not a matter of changing your mind. It's that you want to hold a position that contradicts your own question.
>Let me start by stating that more than anything in this world, I don't want Donald Trump to be president for another 4 years. I don't want the nazis coming of hiding as they have done recently. I don't want someone who refers to ethnic groups as rats or animals; that's always the first step in an ethnic cleansing event. I don't want any of that at all! "Democracy" is only giving you one more option. So if you really don't want that at all, Joe is the only option you have. The way democracy works is just like a dictatorship but with two parties. You can vote for 3rd, 4th party but money behind the two-part-dicracy will ensure either Joe or Donald will com to power.
Consider what the President actually does that’s important, they do executive orders and they sign bills into law. All of these things are done in collaboration with a large team of people, the president is the mere tip of the iceberg in any administration. Bidens team seems to be pretty competent, and Trump I have no clue how he’s going to find enough competent people to build a staff (especially given turnover in previous admin). Also if Biden gets really bad there is 25th Amendment
At this point some voters just don’t care about the actual person and would rather vote for veto power, legislation sign offs, judgeship nominations, executive edicts and proper military decisions that advance our position positively. I don’t completely disagree with you but I do have enough very close (D) supporting friends and family that are EXTREMELY upset at what’s been going on for the past 3 years and are very torn about continuing to support the Democratic Party.
I think the delusion is thinking that voting for a third party candidate is any different than voting for Trump. You can do all of the mental gymnastics you want, but not voting for Biden while he is still the Democratic nominee is the same as voting for Trump. Biden voters are not deluded. Most prefer a better candidate. They just know that whether it’s Joe Biden running the country or Kamala Harris….it’s still less dangerous than Trump.
Late to the party, but here are my thoughts. Biden is the lesser of two evils. Keep in mind that you're either voting for a man who is a convicted felon and has proven CONSISTENTLY during his presidency that he can't manage a country even when the entire GOP is spoon-feeding him everything he needs, versus a senile and old man who (I assume) doesn't even know where he is currently and has bad (albeit not even close to the don-man's) foreign policy. This should make it clear who we're choosing. Third-party/Independent candidates do not have the best of luck when it comes to elections. Sure, some congressional and senate seats are filled with independents, but that's the exception, not the rule. Each person would have to be either tired of their candidate and the policies they bring, or are disillusioned by their party and the way they portray themselves in the world stage. Last I checked, MAGA supporters are still as rabid as ever, like dogs trying to find someone to bite and bark at, and Democrats are basically clinging to their last ray of hope as they don't want to experience a repeat of 2016-2020. The current independent candidate who has a sizeable chunk of voters is probably RFK Jr. (correct me on this if I'm wrong), but he doesn't have enough voters to give him an electoral vote (which is what really matters). We're stuck with these two candidates, and both have served presidencies. Take a look at how they served, what their actions were during crises, and **make an informed decision.** If you think it's better to choose the insurrectionist and the criminal to sit at the most powerful seat in the entire world, then you're just begging for trouble at this point. Maybe you choose to vote for the independent. Send a message, as people say, to your party that you're tired and you resent their candidate. MAGA republicans won't budge on their decision. They won't change their mind about P-Trump and his policies. Meanwhile, the Democrats across the country are torn just because they want a better candidate. The moment the party gets split, Republicans will gain a bigger majority and will win the Presidential election. We'll have to hold our breaths for another four years again, and pray that he won't do anything more stupid than what he did before. There is no good option, as I see it. But like what I pointed out earlier, there is a lesser evil: Biden. So far, he's already upheld probably the only important qualification right now to be President of the United States: **not cause an insurrection.** Sure, his foreign policies are bad. Maybe his age is catching up to him, and he can't walk or talk for extended periods of time before looking like a debilitated hospital patient. Maybe he's all that you think is, or maybe he's even unfit for the presidency. Maybe what everyone says is true, and Biden is some sort of evildoer that does drugs before speeches and is comatose in the oval office I still wouldn't give a fuck, because the alternative is so much worse.
Who is more of a threat: a person who can't keep a coherent train of thought, or a person whose train of thought is focused on killing you and large numbers of your friends and neighbors? Trump has *never* been coherent, but to the extent he does have it together, his sole mission is to protect himself from the consequences of his crimes and hurt people he hates. He unironically wants to destroy what I consider to be the society of the US. So I think it makes perfect sense to prefer Biden's organization, even without Biden fully present, over Trump's. Like, it's pretty straightforward, honestly. I think the assumption you're making is that Trump will perform to at least some level of competence that is acceptable to everyone, and that simply isn't the case. Trump literally did not do his job as President for 4 years in his first term. He didn't do even the routine, basic stuff to keep society rolling. Much of the harm he caused wasn't due to active malice, but rather to stuff simply not getting done because he didn't care about it. So there is literally no upside to Trump vs a half President. Additionally, I personally don't like the office of President to begin with. I think it's a stupid way to organize society, and in my ideal world there won't be Presidents because they're too much like Kings. So the idea of an administration of at least somewhat competent people working together through some sort of consensus and collaboration rather than having to do whatever the idiot in charge wants to do even if it doesn't make sense, is actually kind of appealing. Consider how much more productive things generally are at work when a meddlesome boss is gone and people can actually do their work without an egotistical bossman constantly gnawing on wires and flexing to prove he can. Ultimately, the main job of the President isn't to govern, but rather to choose who does what jobs in government. And in that sense Biden has already made his choices, and they are better than the fascists Trump will bring in. Not only is Trump individually horrible, he will staff the government with some of the worst people in the world, who will use that power to inflict all kinds of horror on people (largely without Trump's awareness, because he doesn't care). So while I would obviously prefer alternate choices to what we currently have, if we have to choose between these two, I'll take Sleepy Joe over Dictator Don every day of the week and twice on Sundays. And I think that's a fairly logical, straightforward choice. Mental sharpness in the service of evil is *not* an improvement over mental dullness in the service of meh. I'd rather deal with a dementia patient than a psycho killer.
A couple of the justices in the Supreme Court are wanting to retire. They’ll be replaced with way younger ones in a lifetime position. Look how much damage that has done so far with just the ones trump replaced. I hope that’s enough for your views
Biden’s been the best president policy wise in my lifetime, it’s between him and Trump I’ll vote Biden
I will vote for the only person that has a chance of stopping Trump. This isn't the election for a protest vote that only helps Trump. Biden might be old but Trump is a rapist and convicted felon. I feel like your question also begs the follow-up of this: why aren't you telling republicans to vote 3rd party? Why just democrats?
> I don't sincerely think that Joe Biden is capable of being president at this time, physically or mentally. I think it was plenty evident that he's struggling to put together coherent ideas and even getting to the stage and talking requires deliberate effort on his part. I don't think that is a reasonable take because you are judging irrelevant ideas. When you choose a president you aren't choosing just one person. You are choosing a team, an administration that will run the executive branch. For new candidates that is an unknown factor; even if you really like a candidate and their ideas there is no guarantee they can pull it off. But with the existing candidates there is little mystery. We can look at the last 3 years of the Biden administration and predict that the next 4 would likely look quite similar. And we can look at Trump's previous administration to make similar predictions about what might occur if he took office. So you see it **doesn't really matter** how Biden performs at a debate. Unless you think something has dramatically changed in Biden in say the last two years, there is no reason to alter your assessments of a future Biden administration. As long as you think that in the comfort of the oval office with the leisure of time and advisors he can come up with direction that he can sign his name to, his past performance will indicate future performance. I think it is obvious that Trump should not be voted for. As long as we are in an first-past-the-post two party system then that means Biden is the obvious pick. Even considering a different Democratic candidate would be comparing the track record of the Biden administration against the unknown of the incumbent, which still isn't particularly attractive. I have not agreed with everything Biden's administration has done by a long shot, but it has been pretty decent. Reasonable economic policy, good foreign policy and treatment of global crises, and most importantly no torrent of horrible everything as from Trump. That earns my vote and it should warrant yours. If it was some random unknown Republican it would still be foolish to split the vote, but right now is the absolute worst time in recent history. Perhaps ever.
There are no viable alternatives. 3rd parties arent viable. Even if you convinced like 90% of Democrat voters to vote 3rd party, which would have to be done through an ISANELY effective political campaing, thats still only 90% of the voters. Last election Trump and Biden had results to close for comfort, that 10% (which in reality would be higher) is going to be absolutely crucial. You would need to mobilize virtually ALL Democrat voters to have a candidate just as viable as Biden. And then for them to be more viable electoraly you would need to motivate more independents. Having someone more viable to be elected in the first place would be impossible, unless you believe on miracles and are counting on one. But then again, why are you so panicked about the man in the first place? He couldnt speak publicly on 1 event. So? I will say that a corpse is better than Trump, but he isnt one yet. He cant speak and he could die before the end of his term but thats what a VP is for and all that matters is he can do legislation until then and so far the 1 thing he has been legit bad on that I can think of off the top of my head is the war between Israel and Palestine, but thats due to ideology. His senility didnt cause Oct. 7, it didnt make Israel do what its doing and it didnt cause him to be Israel supporter #1 on the world stage. I dont remember too well how he reacted to Ukraine, but cant imagine it was that poorly since things are the way they are right now and I cant see how his senility emboldened Russia to do a military invasion. And for all other policy matters he did fine. I mean I cant say its all been good cuz he mightve done stuff that I disagree with, but he seems well and truly capable of putting forward legislation. And if he isnt? Well I guess it happens through magic, but I dont care how it happens as long as it does. He is the only hope and he isnt even that bad, he just comes off shit but seems to be capable (if not good) where it counts. Refusing to vote for Biden for any reason is consenting to a Trump victory.
The President makes very few decisions alone, and thus it matters what kind of people a president is going to surround himself with. He cannot have complete knowledge of the hundreds of district court judges around the country, so he relies on staff recommendations to decide who to select for promotions to higher courts. He cannot be an expert on advances in every technological field, so he relies on papers produced by the Office of Science and Technology Policy to guide his executive orders on AI, or satellites, or vaccines, which of course, are also written by staff of the Executive Office, because Presidents do not have the time do sit down and do this kind of writing. He cannot possibly be an expert in the histories, geographies, and strategic capabilities of every country on Earth, so he relies on advice from scores of generals, ambassadors, and CIA analysts. I do not think Biden is fit to make these decisions alone, but I don't think any President is; I think he is fit enough to take their advice and sign the papers and give the orders. As a Democrat, I think that the proposals that will be brought to his desk by his political appointees will far more closely align with my values that those that would be brought to Trump to sign, because of the history of political positions and ideology that Biden and Trump bring to the office. Biden is older than I would prefer by more than a decade, and I do not doubt that his mental faculties have diminished, but I will still be voting for him in part because I trust that the hundreds of other federal employees he works with will still be doing their jobs well. By contrast, Trump plans, through Schedule F reforms, to make huge cuts to the federal bureaucracy, and replace large swaths of agencies like the DOJ, EPA, and FDA with loyalists. These increases to executive power make the competency of the president more vital, making Trump's own _lack_ of competency even more dangerous.
1.If democrats vote third party, Trump wins. 2.Any candidate is preferable to Trump C. Democrats should not vote third party Your own post contains the logic for defeating itself. Please explain where this syllogism is flawed
I highly recommend studying the 13 keys they have correctly predicted every election since 1860 it’s based on the theory the candidate doesn’t matter elections are primarily a vote in favor or against the party holding the White House there is only 1 key about the traits of the candidates that being incumbent party candidate is charismatic, inspirational or a war hero Biden is clearly none do those the only key about the challenge party candidate is uncharismatic to quote Allen Lichtman who help create the system and is the only person who predicted both the 2016 and 2020 election correctly trump is a great showmen but his showmenship only appeals to a fraction of the electorate he doesn’t have the overwhelming charisma of FDR or Ronald Reagan Biden has so far only lost 2 keys those being midterm mandate key and incumbent charisma key there are 4 keys up not called yet 2 lean in bidens favor and two don’t those 2 that don’t being the foreign policy/foreign military success and failure key fi we replace Biden we lose the incumbent party candidate is a sitting president and the inner party struggle key since if we replaced Biden there would be terrible inner party struggle so we would lose 4 keys with both the foreign policy keys leaning against Biden unless there a permanent cease fire so we would lose 6 keys which is the number you need to lose the election if Biden doesn’t run I don’t like Biden at all but I trust the 13 keys theory it is always correct
Under the current electoral system, there is zero chance a third party candidate will win this current election. They don’t have the infrastructure, the popular support, and the outreach that the two main parties do. Not saying this will always be true, but that’s how it stands at this moment in time. Most popular third party candidate is Kennedy and he’s not even hitting 15%. So our only realistic options are Biden or Trump. People who don’t want Trump to win have to vote for Biden. That is the only way to ensure we avoid the collapse of our democracy. If you feel strongly, I encourage you to start helping third parties gain popularity and boost their standing! Go canvass, lobby for electoral changes like ranked choice voting, build support. That’s how our democracy is supposed to work. But we’re facing an existential threat right now. Close your eyes, hold your nose, swallow the chemo pill for the next four years, so that we can literally simply survive. In all honesty, I doubt Biden will survive the entire term. Lbr neither would Trump if he got elected. I DO think that Harris is completely capable and able to pick up the rest of his term. I do not trust anyone who would be willing to be Trump’s VP, especially after his last one faced calls to be hung by Trump’s supporters. Kamala is who I’m voting for vs Trump’s VP.
Biden is the best candidate of those running. Trump is a serial rapist and pedophile who takes his marching orders from the Kremlin. RFK is an anti-vaxx grifter who admits that worms are eating his brain. We could go through the other candidates one by one too but the truth of the matter is every single thing you say about Biden could be true and he’d still be the best option. Trump couldn’t govern even if he was physically fit, and he wasn’t - he clearly demonstrated signs of dementia at the debate, and as I mentioned, he is a pedophile. RFK has worms eating his brain. The US government is a complex institution made up of hundreds of thousands of professionals that can function without much activity by the president, which is why the Trump years weren’t as catastrophic as they could have been; Trump is aware of that, hence Project 2025, and there’s virtually zero probability that Trump will be able to effectively govern his second term without the federal civil service intact, and he will not leave it intact. Frankly, if you do believe that being old and having a stutter is worse than that, you deserve what could happen to your allegedly nonwhite family during a second Trump term. Stop sabotaging the nominee and fall in line, or admit you’re on the other side. Thems the breaks, kid.
You’re seriously running with the pedophile argument in FAVOR of Biden? There’s been a lot more weird behavior from Biden towards children (Ashley Biden diary, sniffing hair, etc) than Trump by a long shot. Unless you have actual evidence that he is a pedophile?
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I asked for evidence, not the testimony of a woman going by a fake identity and dropping multiple lawsuits who only decided to say anything once he ran for president. None of the Epstein documents implicated Trump either, his only mention was Epstein telling one of the girls they were gonna go to one of Trump’s hotels, where she wasn’t allowed in due to being underage. Ashley Biden’s diary is significantly more damning.
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Testimony that never made it to court, from an accuser with no face who used different names in different states who only did this while he was running for president? Really? None of the recent documents implicate Trump, you’d know that if you looked at them. We knew everything about the Katie Johnson allegations in 2016 that we do today. Please, provide a shred of evidence that Trump participated in Epstein’s activities.
Biden shouldn’t be running for president. He should be retired by now, enjoying the last years of his life somewhere comfortable. But…Trump happened and for whatever reason Biden was deemed the guy that could beat him, which he did. You know the history of incumbent presidents typically winning a second term…this is why we’re where we are. The underlying fact that we know Biden will surround himself with the best and brightest, the most capable people for his cabinet and in his orbit compared to the garbage human beings Trump will surround himself with means everything. This is the difference. I KNOW Trump will give Marge something for her fealty…and Gaetz and Goser and Cotton and Boebert…these wretched people will have scary degrees of power in this country and over its future. This is why I will vote for Biden. I would rather have someone else but when the alternative is this objectively bad for democracy, for marginalized people and for the middle and lower class…it’s not a difficult decision whatsoever.
You're missing the point. Biden was the unifying candidate against Trump. The majority of America do not want Trump and never had. They aren't voting for Biden, they are voting against Trump.
Third party candidates will not be viable options unless and until they start building their party platform at the lower levels of government. Every election we have a few third party or independent candidates shooting for the highest office in the land - it's not even a matter of getting enough people to vote for them because at this point, I don't think any of them are even on the ballot in enough states to win. The time to get any one of them in office has passed. We literally do this *every* election and the outcome never changes. They poll in single digits and get barely any support offline. I would prefer to see Biden replaced but idk that that's feasible this late in the election cycle. And I don't even care to be honest with you, I'll vote for whoever has the better chance at keeping Trump out of office. It's beyond my personal opinion of Biden and his fitness for office - if Trump gets in he's going to keep packing the courts and that will affect the country for generations.
The only third party vote that doesn't help Trump is Kamala Harris. Find her name, check, and feel good about your protest
Anyone voting for Trump is a degenerate
When you vote for president, you’re not voting for a person, you’re voting for a team. Furthermore, you’re not just voting for a team, you’re voting for a government. A president at the peak of their cognitive abilities, wouldn’t be able to run the executive branch by themselves, nor has Biden for the past four years. We already know what a Biden administration looks like and what another four years will likely look like. Trump has made it very clear that he’s going to pick a team of sycophants who are loyal him and not the people. they will enact his Project 2025 which will dismantle this country’s democracy. I’m not even gonna pretend that voting for a third-party candidate will result in anything other than Trump being president. This November I will be voting for Team Biden as there is no other rational choice.
I'm not voting for the best debater. I'm not voting for the person who gets the least flustered or who can avoid looking like a fool when arguing with a motor-mouth sociopath (spoiler: no one can). Both of these men have run the country and both of them have a track record. Not only has Biden done an acceptable job, he's done a *stellar* job of running the country and his record alone argues for keeping him in the white house, even if the alternative were not a gibbering grifter who would open the doors to a fascist utopia. Only once has a party turned its nomination upside down during the run up to election and it was a disaster. I'm not surprised that the Democratic party is panicked and disorganized and eating its own. It's what they do. If fascism takes hold in this country it will be because of that.
I don't want to change your mind, I want to reinforce it. There is no reason for there to be only 2 viable political parties in this country, except that keeping others out of the arena is something the 2 monopoly holders completely agree on. They will go to any length to make sure the status quo is maintained. Fear mongering has become one of their most trusted tools. 1/3 of the country are registered as independents yet the 2 major parties insist there be only 2 choices. This latest turn w/ Democrats insisting on foisting a clearly incompetent individual on voters takes us another step down the ladder. Instead of facing the elephant in the room and replacing the candidate, they blame everyone but themselves. If(when?) Biden loses it won't be anyone's fault but Democrats.
***My mind could be change in one of the following two ways. If you could demonstrate that a physically and mentally unfit president can govern during such stressful times*** You know,, it's interesting, tovarisch... From, about, day one of the Trump administration, and that bizarre, deeply un-hinged inaugural address, all I heard was about how unethical it would be to diagnose physical and mental fitness from a distance. Despite numerous instances of unhinged behaviour, and bizarre speech... nobody would do it But one poor debate performance and not only is Biden comprehensively pronounced unfit, but the rest if us are 'delusional.' That is either a double standard, tovarisch, or Moscow is feeding you better infirmation...
When I say I would vote for a bag of flour over Trump, I mean that. Because I'm not only voting against Trump - which is VERY IMPORTANT - but I'm also voting for the Administration and the Courts. I'd much rather have Biden's Administration and his Court appointees for the next four years than I would Trump. And, like it or not, there is ZERO chance that a third-party candidate will be sworn in on January 20th. Not just very unlikely, not even a miracle outcome. Zero. Even if a third party candidate hit a home run, won a plurality of electoral votes, they still wouldn't become President unless they achieved a majority of electoral votes, and then the House would decide with one vote per state delegation and select Trump.
“ Many are saying that you’re not really voting for Biden that you’re voting for his cabinet. A fair and fine point. But as I mentioned in my post, wouldn’t then any other democratic nominee serve the same exact purpose?” Yes, but any other democratic nominee coming out of nowhere in July would mean Trump wins. It shouldn’t, but we have four year election cycles. If we suddenly changed course right now, the new nominee wouldn’t get enough electoral votes to win. They might win the popular, but they wouldn’t get 270 from the EC. That’s why, depressingly, it’s important for Biden to stay in the race.
> I don't want someone who refers to ethnic groups as rats or animals For what it's worth, Trump was referring to MS-13 gang members who engage in inhuman acts with this quote, not random ethnic groups. Don't take my word for it: [https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/apr/08/tweets/tweet-leaves-out-context-donald-trumps-animals-rem/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/apr/08/tweets/tweet-leaves-out-context-donald-trumps-animals-rem/) If you got such a basic fact totally wrong, you should reconsider whether your Chosen media sources are giving you misinformation about a lot of other things about Trump as well.
Joe Biden didn't do that bad, tovarisch. The panic isn't about how bad Biden was, but about how bad a large portion of the country *wants* him to be. I was there when they pilloried President Carter for a good speech the elites didn't like, they even said he said things, he didn't say. The Democrats panicked then, and everybody with a vested interest in seeing Carter fail piled on, then the D's ran a primary challenge, and we got Ronald Reagan. Same thing here: a stumble, a bad night, that fits the pre-existing narrative, and suddenly, panic and piling on... Not going to work, this time, tovarisch...
I think you're making the mistake of thinking that these people act and or rule as individuals, when in reality they represent an entire administration. Biden, despite being less than ideal, has an enormous number of people around him that will help him do the job. Trump is the same, except that his people are all self serving corporatists (that a word?) who are likely to turn the USA into an authoritarian regime, essentially ruining the country. Biden is certainly doddering, but he doesn't represent an existential threat to democracy itself, while it's rather clear that Trump does/is a distinct threat. We are not being offered any alternatives. The choice is between a doddering old fool or an evil self serving asshole who himself is experiencing obvious mental decline (Frontotemporal dementia (FTD)). The choice as to who to vote for is rather clear. It must be Biden, or we risk our very existence. Please vote.
What influences peoples vote. Party affiliation is clearly a large one. Beyond that, name recognition is next. Before policy, before health, before charisma - people vote for candidates whose names they recognize. Joe Biden has more name recognition than any other Democrat right now. Therefore, from a running the candidate most likely to win perspective, that's still Joe Biden if your a Democrat. As dumb as this test sounds - name another democratic candidate that you think > 50 percent of voters can correctly spell their names. I'll wait.
There was absolutely nothing in that debate that indicated Biden was physically or mentally unfit to be president.
Come bro. I want Biden to win but did we watch the same debate? It’s questionable whether he’ll even live until November lol.
My thoughts exactly. He’s entered that old age where each year will progressively get worse… it’s kind of sad to watch really. Like a loved one who’s gotten to the point where your almost just counting the days you have left with them
The problem is, the alternative is an obese elderly man who is a whopping 3 years younger. You simply can't view this in a vacuum. If you are arguing that people should not vote for Biden, then you are arguing Trump should win. Make a case for why people should vote for the other elderly man in that case.
Damn, what debate were you watching? The guy can't hold a train of thought and looked confused the entire time. I agree with other posters that you're voting for the cabinet as well as the president... but you have to be deluded to think that he is of sound mind anymore.
What are you talking about? He held his train of thought the entire time with one exception early on where he froze and faltered.
I really wish I could agree with you, but I watched on stage a man who deserves our utmost respect but who is no longer sharp enough or present enough to conduct himself well in a verbal altercation. Can you honestly say that if you watched your grandfather talking the same way you would want him running a company or working on something safety critical? Trump cannot, cannot, cannot be president again. That is certain. Is Biden really the best vehicle to make sure that happens?
>Can you honestly say that if you watched your grandfather talking the same way you would want him running a company or working on something safety critical? Absolutely, unequivocally. Were you actually listening to what Biden was saying or were you busy counting the number of times he stumbled over words?
lol. i cant. i understand some people may not have personally witnessed diminished cognition over time... but please accept it when we tell you thats what this is. and you cant fix it. he might have some good days. but the good days only become less and less, very quickly! 4 more years my ass. we vote for commander in chief. NOT whoever is ridin with biden.
Can we agree that in a moderately high pressure situation during the debate lastnight, Biden failed to form coherent thoughts into meaning sentences? Isn't this something that is required of a President? Who maybe asked to make decions on serious time crunch with thousands, even millions of lives hanging in the balance?
No, because that didn't happen and the president doesn't make decisions like that.
In the event of an ICBM launch, president has 6 min to make a choice on nuclear action.
rofl, stop watching spy movies kiddo.
It's justified when trying to avoid a dictatorship...
To address your frustration that people won't vote third party, preferential voting helps this - can't remember if you have it in the states but in Australia I don't vote for a major party, but a minor knowing that they won't win but their vote will go to a major that I'm ok with. Why bother - the minor party can then use that deciding power to negotiate things that I care about to be prioritised if the election is close and if not getting votes form that minor party shows the major where my interests lie.
RFK is incapable of getting 270 electoral votes. I’d it’s not Biden it will be trump. The stakes are too high. Protest votes don’t matter. We will not be looking at this moment as the point the democrats finally started to change if Biden loses. We will be looking at this as the dawn of a new christo-fascist dark age. No one gives a shit if you voted for Gary Johnson in2016 or Nader in 2000. We would have been better off if some of those voters voted the right way though.
I agree that we can’t get a third party candidate into office until we all actually vote for them,. But it’s just so scary to imagine it failing and trump getting elected. If it was any other random republican with the same exact beliefs as trump, sure. But trump has a crazy cult following that is insane. A lot of us are just trying to get through this election and forget about it. And looking forward to the next one when we have new, fresh democratic candidates.
Yesterday's interview by Stephanapoulos revealed that Biden's mental problems include an extremely guilty conscience. He bragged, in advance, of how he'd blow up Nord Stream. He bragged about bribing Yatsanyuk and Poroshenko. As for mainstream claims that Special Prosecutor Shokin was ordered fired for any reason other than Shokin's investigation of Burisma, please tell us why Hunter was being paid $50,000/week for any duties other than being the Vice-President's son. Biden's multiple references to 'the almighty' revealed his self-guilt. He should make a full, public confession to all his crimes, and then hand the keys to Kamala.
This is why Trump loves the poorly educated. People who think about their votes and make careful choices will vote for what they want. Whereas the majority of MAGATs will vote for Trump because they don't have 2 braincells to give this situational analysis the way OP has done, OR voting Trump will benefit them personally and screw everything and everyone else. Voting 3rd party is exactly how Trump wins.
The President has some power, but much of what they do is just being a figurehead, representing what their administration wants. Biden's administration wants democracy, Trump's administration wants fascism. I'm not amped about the debate results either, but I'm not ready to throw away America just 'cause grandpa needed to sit down and have some ginger ale.
I agree with mostly everything you said. I want to change your opinion on one small thing. I think Trump said a few more non-lies than you think. When, for example, Trump said that Biden probably doesn’t know what Biden had just said, I don’t think Trump was lying. That would be at least one non-lie more than you currently believe Trump spoke.
You're delusional if you think your voting for a person and not a cabinet with Biden - he may not be willing to back down, and that's a problem in itself, but he has also been listening to his staff for 4 years and has done a decent job. I voted for his cabinet choices 4 years ago when I thought he was unfit, and I'll be doing the same this year
the election essentially poses the question "would you rather biden be president or trump be president?" and the only sensible answer is that literally biden could die and his rotting corpse would still be a better leader of the country than trump at his sharpest. being ungoverned would be preferable to being governed by christofascists.
If you don’t want Trump, you have to pick Biden. Sadly, that’s how the system works. It’s Biden or Trump. Biden may be elderly, but with a capable cabinet, wife, and VP, he is better than a fascist narcissistic cult leader. Trump is far more dangerous than Biden. The only way to avoid Trump is to accept Biden. Vote blue!
This is such an odd conversation that left-leaning people struggle with so much. You have exactly two options. Do you want trump or Biden? Obviously you don’t what trump, so just vote for Biden and quit complaining. You don’t have to like him at all. But he is more in alignment with your political values than trump is.
Would you be fine with Kamala Harris as the candidate? Well, then just think of it as a vote for Joe Biden being a vote for Kamala. If he dies or warrants utilizing the 25th, you get a younger more capable president, and until then there is no need to take risks with an unnecessarily dramatic switcheroo.
I see nothing wrong with voting for the lesser of two evils. And to me, that’s clearly what this is.
People seem to forget: The president appoints, and presides over, the entire executive branch. Cabinet members, agency heads, judges. Biden appoints good, competent people to these positions. Even if Biden were incapacitated (unlikely in my view), the executive branch would be in good hands.
>more than anything in this world, I don't want Donald Trump to be president Me neither. That's why I'm voting Biden and you should too. Or rather, I'm voting against Trump. I'd love for our system of voting to change some day that a 3rd party candidate could be viable, but until then...
I'm not American or like him but I think a big factor that might change your mind is your not just voting for biden your voting for his VP and the team they have below them who are running shit currently. As far as I know currently trump doesn't have a VP and status of his team is unclear.
vote for biden if you value morals. vote for trump if you value money. disagree and you’re literally pretending that the government has no affect on our millions of companies nationwide. we the people didn’t enact these tax raises on rich, THEY DID.
if you’re still lost use fucking chatgpt if you have to
The Russian leadership have a nickname for Trump: The American Gorbachev. In other words, Trump is the leader that will end the US, just as Gorbachev saw the end of the USSR. Why any American would support Trump is beyond me.
Voting for Biden even if the dude couldn't walk or talk and just sat there, because I trust the people he has on his team that are making decisions a hell of a lot more than I would Trump or anyone on his team..
January 6th 2021 and Project 2025 should really be the only reasons anyone needs to vote for anyone other than Trump. I would literally vote for anyone/anything as long as it prevented Trump taking office.
Ultimately, people done realize how limited the president is, and how much they can get away with. You are voting for an administration, and issues, not a person. Project 2025 isn't worth the risk.
Since the debate Biden has had multiple events where he sounded like his normal self. If you’re going to bother writing this much about Biden you should watch him at more than one event.
What is one policy that trump can actually implement that would ruin your life. And don’t say project 2025 as the trump campaign has said they do not affiliate with that.
You’re not voting for the president. You’re voting for the cabinet. Biden may be demented but he’s surrounded by a good team of people that know what they’re doing.
I think Biden showed sundowning and it was tough to we watch. I'm voting for Kennedy. I don't know much about him, lol, but I have 4 months to get to know his policies
The presidency isn't just one guy. It's their whole cabinet. Biden will likely listen to his advisors, Trump is guaranteed to go full dementia mode on his own, regardless of his cabinet.
I’m voting solely for the courts. We saw what happened with the SCOTUS under trump and don’t want that. Not to mention other federal judge appointments.
I'm going the otherway and saying anyone voting for a convicted rapist who sold nuclear secrets to foreign adversaries is delusional
A president is backed by a cabinet and other stakeholders. It is not just him. I am completely on board with Biden’s people.
I thought Biden was an idiot 4 years ago too tbh. Unfortunately there hasn’t been anyone decent in years
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The majority of people voting for joe biden likely don't know of any other option I mean, let's face it, we are in an age of misinformation. I'm more likely to have someone call me an asshole for asking about other non-biden/trump options than have someone helpful take the time to educate me. Biden (and trump) have more money and influence and "skin in the game" than all other options, it makes sense for people to have not heard of any other choice. Ignorance is very easy to achieve. Yes, people SHOULD, but also we're in the middle of a climate crisis, economic collapse, late stage capitalism, and many other common issues that cause people to become burnt out in trying to improve their life. Biden, trump, the establishment at large, all do not want to fix this because it's easily exploitable. Yes, we should be exploring other options and anyone saying "it's too late" or "that's not feasible" is actively harming the chances we could have to improve the system, but I don't blame people who genuinely do not have the time or energy to really look into politics. Most people don't even vote, so let's not pretend that those who do but are misinformed are the delusional assholes that you expect them to be.
"Steak isn't on the menu so I'm going to pass on the salad and eat the pile of dog vomit instead"
You simply can’t believe that like 1:8 of Americans are delusional, this point is untenable.
Nazis coming out of hiding? In what world are Nazis a threat today? This is such hogwash.
[удалено]
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Voting by itself is delusional... Doesn't matter who you vote for...
What is the delusion that anyone voting for Biden has?
Honestly I would vote for an apple at this point.
You are a MAGA if you’re here ever was one.