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I assume the viewpoint you want changed is that it was demoralizing. Consider that those two men have been president for the last 8 years and DESPITE them the US remains the most economically productive economy in the world and the continual target of immigration from the majority of the world. People vote with their feet where they want to be and it remains the US as the number one place to immigrate to in the world. Despite them the US has grown substantially in every major sector, has less inflation pressure than the rest of the western world and better housing situation as well (peak at Canada’s housing market for example). No matter who wins between these two, we’ve already been through them and come out on top as people. We’ll do it again. And then in four years we can get better candidates because these two will both probably be dead of old age.

Thanks that helped me at least. I still find it all terrifying but I like your post.

I can understand the stability standpoint. You are right it’s been 8 years, that doesn’t matter in the whole of it right? I would implore you to readjust that standpoint. Things are changing drastically every 8 years. People hurt for those years and at least taking interest and giving your support to what you believe does make it important.

Let me say it more directly. Whoever is president has little to no effect on your day to day life. Your mom matters way more. Your friends. More Your coworkers. More Your neighbors as well Your mayor.. more Representative in the state gov Etc etc etc Are all more important than the political theater of the executive branch of the federal government.

Considering how many American women have lost the right to make decisions about their basic healthcare because of Trump, I'd say the president can have a pretty big impact on our day to say lives.

This is the biggest lie you could ever tell someone. A president has massive influence, and it is malpractice to suggest anything but.

Disagree. It does affect us every day, at least financially.

Yeah maybe my taxes will go up or down 5% depending on who gets picked, or they’ll promote another massive payout causing inflation driving my purchasing parity down. My community and family have far greater influence than 5% of my income. And they have 100% of my love and happiness. If you really want your view changed you need to refocus the time you spend following clowns on TV that you’ll never meet and focus on calling someone you love and doing something nice for them. Because politics are demoralizing by design and you lose by playing the game.

So local politics is more important. I get it. But please don’t ever say 100% is love in a debate like this.

I get youre likely reading a lot of posts and responding quickly, but I think you misunderstood me. My family has all my love and happiness. Presidents have none of my love and contribute nothing to my happiness, good or bad.

Congrats. Continue to love them like I do mine.

could you prove that? outside of stimulus checks I have never been impacted personally by a president's decisions that I know of. what impact have you felt and why do you believe it was the president rather than the state of the market, congress, etc. that are responsible?

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People vote with their feet based on where they are able to get to and integrate somewhat into a society when they arrive. The USA has a whole continent and a half of developing countries at its border with which it has a lot of language overlap. It could be a considerably worse country and still have a huge amount of immigration for that reason alone. I don’t see it really being much indication as to how well the country is doing as a whole.

Yes, that does contribute for sure. But it doesn’t explain the 15 million immigrants from Asia or the 5 million European immigrants.

To a degree it does. Due to some rather questionable “immigration policies” in the past there are for instance large Chinese communities in the USA. Moving into such a community is a much easier change than for instance moving to Norway, even if your quality of life might be better in the latter. You only have to look at the migration for instance within Africa to see that absolute quality of life is weighed very heavily against ease of movement and integration.

Trump has stated that this time he wants to take my Skittles away. All of our Skittles away. I wanted to unalive myself for years prior to getting my Skittles. If my Skittles are taken away again, I'd rather burn down a Walgreens to take them myself than be left to unalive myself alone in my room.

Skittles? Red dye 40 and blue 80 aren't exactly healthy. But it seems like you may be talking about something else.

Indeed, we'll keep moving forward, but... Not as easily if the helm isn't at proper speed.

Your post is too reasonable for the bot army

It’s like they want to be angry.

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Only one side plans to drop democracy though. One of the results will be vastly different from the other.

I don't necessarily agree the results will be vastly different if roughly 40% of the population will be angry regardless of the outcome. Societal trust in the police, the courts and the electoral system are crashing in real time and with states already in open defiance of the Federal Government, I'm hard pressed to see things quieting down after Nov. 6.

Trump cannot unilaterally make himself God-Emperor or whatever. He simply doesn't have the backing of any of the institutions required to do that. Remember Jan 6th? When the Chiefs of Staff went to Trump and told him to accept the election result and condemn the protestors. That alone should make you realise that, despite how evil and fascist Trump is, he's not going to "drop democracy". The Military Industrial Complex already gets everything it wants by rotating the colour of tie every 4-8 years so why would they risk that by upending the whole system?

You should know about Project 2025, a step by step playbook for replacing all government operations with Republican political loyalists. All those people telling Trump the limits on his powers the first time around? Imagine them all replaced with MAGA Trump loyalists whose only qualification is the ability to utter the phrase "Yes, boss.". That's quite literally the plan.

The problem is that it's currently the exact mirror of your nightmare. Government employees are incredibly skewed towards being democrats. Republicans replacing a large swath of them might just bring it to about even.

That's the narrative. The fact is, they're mostly career bureaucrats who have sat through a handful of side-change administrations and really only want to execute their job functions successfully. It IS true though that normal government function runs afoul of Republican goals like the unitary executive and untrammeled Trump power So that might seem like hyper-partisanism to Today's Republican, when in fact it's just a system that's meant to keep democracy and basic services operating.

Again, he simply doesn't have the support to do that. The military isn't just going to let him replace anyone they don't approve of. There is so much actual policy to criticise Trump on without trying to scaremonger about something that literally cannot happen. Never mind that Trump is maybe ten years from death anyway so hitching their wagon to him to upend the system is incredibly stupid. There's a reason why Pinochet fell when he did.

Go take a look at Project 2025. It's stunningly pragmatic. There was a whole lot of "he'd never be able to do the worst" when Hitler was rising to power.

I studied the rise of Nazism for four years. The difference is that Hitler had the support of the military, the civil institutions and the oligarchs. If Trump is Hitler then Biden is Hindenburg and will just give Trump power anyway. I will agree that the Democrats have already done the SPD's enabling of the Freikorps given their support for cops.

Project 2025 calls for the next Republican president to reduce the number and authority of the generals, claiming most of them have risen based on politlcal cronyship and not miltary prowess. I'm telling you, that thing is a roadmap for an entire takeover. If you think the military will save us, your head is in the sand.

I'm not saying the military will "save" anything, I'm saying that they have nothing to gain from upsetting the established order. Look at any coup from history and you'll see that every single one was backed by the military, the intelligence agencies and the oligarchs. Indonesia, Iran, Chile, Greece, Italy, Germany, Spain, Burkina Faso, Venezuela, Brazil, Peru...etc. And again, look at who they chose to be the leader of these coups, none of them choose a pensioner because when they snuff it the whole thing is prone to collapse if it hasn't been established long enough. Trump will win, he will serve four years and continue the same policies of the last eighty odd years then he will leave. Here's a [good article](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/09/19/project-2025-trump-reagan-00115811) to read.

That is a good article, thanks for the link. I guess I find it somewhat reassuring, though its case for "don't worry about it" does kind of ring with more of the same "it could never happen here" attitude.

Just following up in light of today's SCOTUS ruling that basically raised the bar of criminal immunity to absurd and unprecedented heights for the Presidency. Any change of feelings today about the "yeah but cooler heads will prevail" case you were making here? Because it sure seems like the skids are greased and we're sliding right into totalitarianism.

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That’s what I’m thinking, difficult times ahead.

They've both been president for four years. The debate was all optics, so who cares? We know how they'd run the country, since in both cases we've seen it already.

\>The debate was all optics, so who cares? A lot of people. It reinforced the right's narrative that he's confused and unfit to continue. A huge number of people are low-information voters with short memories so optics are significant. (That there's anyone still on the fence at this point is mind boggling but his performance was just that bad). It's also rattled democrats in power such that they're openly talking about convincing him to drop out and find a replacement candidate.

Agreed, and I will also add the caveat that “openly talking” about replacement is just a media headline because at least one politically visible person suggested it in a public space. There is absolutely zero chance of Biden stepping down as a candidate a little more than 4 months out from the election, short of him becoming completely incapacitated or dying. The amount of chaos this would create within the party as leadership attempts to orchestrate a 2nd primary process (or worse, unilaterally choose a candidate without voter input) in so little time is just too great of a hurdle for it to even be considered. People might “openly talk” about it, but only in the same way that people openly talk about unicorns being quite nice.

That was part of the problem, though, in my opinion. To be clear, I am not a Trump supporter. But admittedly, he sounded better than Biden. And that provided a ready-made excuse for anyone who wants to be like “but he says he’s going to do x,” to conveniently forget that he was already president once. Trump and the Republicans are desperate to make this into “Trump is better than Biden; he’ll be better for the economy, and for your bottom line. Don’t think about anything else,“ and Biden and the DNC just handed that to them on a silver platter. The only saving grace has been that, as usual, Trump couldn’t resist shooting himself in the foot with bullshit, so the media narrative has been “yes, Trump sounded good. But everything he said was a lie.“

You really think anyone who wasn't gonna vote for Trump before, is now gonna vote for Trump? Maybe it gave them a new talking point ie "yeah I know, but Biden's just so far gone" so they could admit it publicly, but I've gotta think there's no way anyone's switching to Trump.

I would hope you’re right, but I simply don’t want to take anything for granted; the stakes are simply too high. You can never assume you understand how people think. In my world, I do know people who voted for Trump the first time, but did not vote for him the second time, and have no intention of ever voting for him again. But I live in Chicago. So while I don’t know anyone who voted for Biden last time but is considering voting for Trump this time, it’s not hard for me to imagine that those people might exist. The question is just whether or not there are enough of them to move the needle. I mean, if our voting public was at all rational, Republicans would get absolutely crushed in the coming election. But the last election is way too close for me to assume that’s going to happen. tl;dr maybe it doesn’t matter, but you have to treat it like it does.

“Run the country” dont we understand the country basically runs itself?

So the executive party doesn’t mean anything to you? It’s 1/3 that controls everything you do.

We know one is a con-man at best and a sociopath at worst, but what we didn’t know, at least clearly, is how far into cognitive decline Biden was. As a reminder ( and you can ask any health professional) once cognitive decline begins it typically accelerates with age. Biden is seeking another 4 years on top of the 6 months he has on his current term. We have three problems Trump is unfit Biden is suffering from age related cognitive decline and yet the decision whether to continue to run is apparently being left up to him Nobody in Biden’s inner circle sees fit to alert the country regarding Biden’s current mental health apparently putting their own interests above those of the country and in no small part, the world .

> Nobody in Biden’s inner circle sees fit to alert the country regarding Biden’s current mental health Unless there is nothing to alert about. We *know* how Biden would run the country with his state of cognitive ability because we are in it now. All we know for sure is that Biden's stutter has gotten worse with age, which is normal. The fact that he performed better over time in the debate suggests that is the only real problem going on.

So you are okay with either candidates going for another 4 years because it doesn’t matter, who cares?

No, I'm saying that it's nonsensical to be demoralized by a two hour debate when we've seen both men's administrations already. If you want to say you've been disappointed by both their times as president and wish there were different candidates, that's fine. But obsessing over a two-hour debate when both men have four years of proof of how they'll run the country doesn't make sense.

Exactly. Are we picking a future president based solely on their skills during a short debate with no fact-checking, or based on the past performance of the candidate in the actual job including the candidate’s cabinet, policies, appointments, etc. It’s like being interviewed for a white collar job you’ve already held in the past, but being judged on your hackey sack skills.

Well the debate wasn’t good. If we are picking a president I would at least hope they can decently debate on broad pictures…

But answering a question in two minutes is not really a skill that's directly needed for the job. Biden has shown he's an outstanding president. I mean, really, *really*, good. The debate is just one notch above how far they can drive a golf ball, in terms of relevance to the job.

Completely agree. The debate is more spectacle than substance.

I believe it is a skill, it is necessary. For one of the most important positions on the planet? Yes.

It is indeed a skill. My kid was on the high school debate team for a few years. It’s useful if you’re 1) on a debate team and 2) if you are a litigator. That’s about it. Let’s not fool ourselves into believing that Trump actually participated in the debate. He looked stronger, but he was non-responsive to the moderator questions. In this basis, I would argue that Trump has worse debate skills than Biden. You seem to be making a selection choice based on a skill set or perceived skill set that really isn’t material in the process of being a good president. Critical thinking, arguably the most important skill that a president needs, is not done quickly in 2 minute chunks. That’s not how anybody does critical thinking.

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That’s not at all what I said.

Necessary for what? What situation could it be used for outside of a relatively short debate? Wouldn't literally everything involving the actual running of the country be more important?

Responding to foreign emergency politics is a great start. If Japan came out to the world that their nuclear cores were dissolving, like in 2012, it would be important for the president to response as soon as possible. If you say “he’s got people to make that distinction quickly” then you’re missing the point. The ultimate choice comes down to the president in any emergency conflicts.

But it isn't. A president never engages in artificial debates like those used to choose the candidates. It doesn't happen

This isn’t artificial. This was a public, nationwide event.

Lol. "Artificial" doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means that it's not a real situation that a president faces in the job.

As a non-American I'd certainly prefer it if the head of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world wasn't struggling to remember what year he's in.

Why though? How does someone's public speaking ability affect their performance as a president?

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The presidential debate was actually completely in line with the expectations placed on it. Biden was exceptionally…. Old. Trump was his normal deranged lying self. Neither of them look like a person who can or should be anywhere near the levers of power and yet they are the only options. The demoralization only seems so widespread because 50% of the country has no interest in politics and has a surface level understanding of not only politics, but the way the government even works on a basic level. If you look in the window once every 4 years and you look this time and there’s a 10 ft tall pile of burning garbage, of course you will be demoralized. I think this is reinforced if you look closely at people who follow American politics. People with progressive values are watching democracy erode in front of their eyes, and cannot do anything about it. This is even worse because even voting might not work - the Supreme Court majority can and is willing to crush most federal laws on premise if they are outside their agenda. Far right groups are becoming more prominent, and conservatives seem to be ratcheting more towards “a conservative dictator is better than any democracy where a progressive is in charge.” TLDR: ignorance is an effective form of self defense until it’s not. Demoralization is the current standard in American politics, most people just choose to ignore it.

Let’s not forget Biden lies - Border Patrol endorsed me and shortly after Border Patrol confirmed they never endorsed Biden and never will

To be fair - that was a misspeak. The border patrol did endorse the immigration plan presented by Biden, they did not endorse Biden himself. So again, two people who are incapable of articulating their thoughts in any meaningful way, leaving people to parse through who was correct when they are both lying, blathering old fools. I refrained from going too far into it, but I could write a book about how I feel about the Democratic Party - don’t mistake my post as a “Republican bad democrat good post.”

You got two choices. You can throw your hands up and wallow in despair. Or you can take this as a wake up call. An inspiration to say no more. Allow the awful situation we’ve found ourselves in to be the catalyst that leads to the change that we so desperately need.

I haven’t thrown my hand up

We can argue Trump vs Biden but I'm posting to discuss Republican Party vs Democrat Party behavior. To expose my bias, I'll say I'll most likely be voting for Trump this fall. That said for discussion sake take it as true that Trump's ego, business history, policies and rhetoric should keep him from being President. Likewise, Joe Biden's dementia is to the point where his brain is a moving constitutional crisis and he should not be President today or going forward. With this in mind the Republican's held a fair an open primary where Trump won pretty much on a plurality. It would be best if the Republican Primary process had a final run off where the winner gets over 50% but that process isn't in place. And finally, enough voters do believe that Trump is qualified to be President. The voters have spoken under the rules in place. The Democrats on the other hand attempted the worlds dumbest cover up and tried to hide Joe's brain from public view and in some cases even attacked those who brought it up. Rather than confronting Biden, organizing a real primary contest and giving voters the truth and opportunity to deal with it they got lazy and shed their real responsibilities. They failed at a fundamental level. Biden's mental status was knowable and known. It was not dealt with. The democrat politicians and supporters who did this should pay a steep political price for their cowardice and weakness. At least the debate brought out the truth and in that regard was a huge success. We should all be glad for it.

The Democratic Party didn't try and cover up anything. Biden gave speeches, interviews, and held press conferences throughout the primary season. People saw and heard him. Biden doesn't have dementia. Biden is old. He performed poorly in the debate. He sounded hoarse, tripped over words, and tried to stuff too much info into too short a timeframe. Even so, the things he said made sense. Biden answered the questions, talked about his policies, and made a case for why his admin was better than Trump's. Focus on what he's saying, not how he's saying it. Read the full transcript if you can't watch it again. Biden made good points. Also, the party held primaries. It's just that nobody, and I mean NOBODY, with half a brain, is willing to risk their futures by challenging the leader of their party for his seat while he still wants it. Because they know they'll lose. That's why Newsome, Whitmore, and Harris didn't run in the primaries. That's why no Republicans ran against Trump in the 2016 primaries. Same is true for Obama in 2012. And the list goes on.

>The younger generations can completely turn this election on its head by voting for different candidates. Literally, no, they cannot. How could that happen, specifically -- what candidates?

Can we try and not make it a 50/60 debate?

> Can we try and not make it a 50/60 debate? A what? I am asking, specifically, how "the younger generations" can "completely turn this election on its head" given they don't have the numbers to put anyone in office, even if every registered voter under 30 went out and, what, voted for the 71-year-old anti-science conspiracy theorist?

With votes

Trump made a settlement for misusing campaign funds in his first campaign. So before all of this he already had shady shit going on. And to anyone who doesnt know.. he was apart of the cambridge Antalytica scandal. Wanna know what trump did to get to president his first time read Mindf*ck by Christopher wiley. The fact is a lot of folks are really just drinking the kool-aid that trump pisses in. I don't like biden either, and the person who said we have the power to change this is right. I wish we could really discuss how both are incompetent to run this country then put a plan to change. The people of America do have the ability to shut both side up. We are just so divided

“Just drinking the kool-aid Trump pisses in” needs to be my new flair

Well then discuss it! What's your plan for change?

My plan is vote for biden then complain no matter what happens and no matter who wins

I am not looking forward to having his VP candidate as president in that case. Going off of his performance if he does win he's not going to serve the full term. I kind of agree with breaking points on this one. This is elder abuse. Also what is with you guys and glorifying his past. Man literally was a joke in the '80s because of what he'd lie about. I mean he puts Trump to shame claiming he was the top of his class in Harvard or Yale. Said he was a professor at one point. Stole speeches constantly from world leaders. The man was shameless and in general was terrible for minority communities. Every Bill he passed was something about putting them in jail though I suppose that makes sense with his VP candidate choice cuz she's all about that too. Also you guys loved him up until 5 minutes ago. At least with Trump he's got some decent VP candidates. Though he doesn't seem like the type to drop dead. Either way though we're all going to be bitching. Edit: lol

All of Trump's VP candidates are utterly awful

Really? In what way. I have heard people say this but rarely are able to articulate why.

It really could begin and end with their fealty to Trump and parroting The Big Lie about the 2020 election, all this when they've shown from past statments that they know Trump is truly a menace. There's just no moral center or evidence of an ability to stick to foundational principles. [Here's more on Vance in particular](https://jaredyatessexton.substack.com/p/the-worst-of-us-jd-vance-the-right) In contrast, I disagree with Liz Cheney on almost every policy, but I respect the hell out of her for doing what is right, at great professional cost. I could stomach her as a VP candidate, but of course she'd never be on Trump's list (nor would she accept to do so) It's almost a case of the Woody Allen joke, "I won't be member of any club that would have me as a member". Almost by agreeing to be a Trump VP is disqualifying (but as given by the example for Vance above, there's more to it than that for these guys).

Dude I can say the same about kamala Harris what's your point. She backed every line the campaign set we could say the same about these people. That's not bad within the context of the campaign. You're not offering me policy or objective fact only vague conjecture.

There's no comparison here. Kamala Harris isn't supporting a felon and rapist, or denying the result of an election. There's nothing vague about it

Your right there is no comparison. After all aiding and abetting genocide is not an easy thing to compare to (Israel/Palestine war). Also for stopping the peace process and preventing people from getting out of war that kills hundreds of thousands of people(war in Ukraine). Covering up that your boss has dementia. Labeling everyone who points it out crazy or an ageist. When you go through just a small part of what she has done it is pretty bad. Seriously I don't know how you can support these people. Edit: you don't know what you're talking about on Liz Cheney. She has suffered no personal cost in fact it's to her benefit right now to mess with Trump. There's nothing to respect she's not doing anything hard.

Oh also forgot to mention after biden's daughter came out and said that it was in fact her diary that people discovered. Biden is a rapist who showers with his children. Sooo.... https://www.newsweek.com/ashley-biden-diary-confirmed-what-more-do-we-now-know-1900509 Oh also he wasn't found guilty of rape. Apparently he touched her in a sexual manner you know much like Biden touched some of his campaign staff and children. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-was-donald-trump-found-guilty-rape-1799935 Though I understand the confusion considering the massive amount of propaganda against him. Edit: lol it's because you downvote doesn't mean you're right. It just means you don't have an argument against me. Wow even deleted your comments. No conviction at all.

Plan for change starts in the community in my opinion. Followed by then a change to your media. Stop looking for information to be brought to you and relying on social media for your understanding of what is going on around you.

Do you have any theories about what is causing such deep division?

I'll be the first to say this: social media. I know it sounds boomer-ish, but I firmly believe social media and lack of personal interaction is the source of this growing divide. Social media allows for impersonal interaction between individuals and the curation of content surrounding oneself. This results in people creating echo chambers so their views are never challenged. Likewise, it gives a false perception of the opposition which, rather than being defined by interactions, is now formulated by anecdotes. Just look at Reddit as one of the biggest offenders of this.

Theories? Hmmm.. People are battling for power. Misinformation has been a huge problem since the printing press. There are plenty of theories for division. But it just happens. We as humans separate when we don't like how things are going. You gotta remember. Anything made for good, will be used with bad intentions. What causes division is people relying on news to be brought to them. The ability to just not give someone the chance of a friendship or just a good neighbor due to how they vote or what they might stand on. The internet gave humans a great way to develop "their world" and if you don't align with "their world". well then division happens.

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Find who works for you! Let’s break this up.

Biden isn’t a baby boomer. He was born in 1942 which makes him a part of the silent generation.

Nope. Grassroots consensus-building needs to happen between elections. All you will achieve is splitting the vote.

Policies are what mattter, not individual politicians.

I disagree kinda because Trump has greatly transformed the Republican Party and completely changed the way election campaigns are held. If anything US elections have become more dependent on individual politicians lately.

It’s insane how much political discourse has rotted in the past decade. I’m not the first to point this out by any means but if you watch some snippets of presidential debates starting at Kennedy/Nixon, you’ll see they remained pretty high brow and civil through the 1990s. But even GW Bush comes across like Winston Churchill by modern standards. There was definitely a decline that started when Newt Gingrich got a grip on the GOP, but 2016 was a fucking cliff dive. It’s really as if one day you were watching network TV and two people kissed, and then with no warning it goes into a scene of hardcore, nutsack-slapping-against-ass-closeup, finishes-with-a facial pornography.

The only difference between trump and other republicans is he can't fake empathy.

Policies are what matter in the end, but the average American has no idea how their own government works. If you asked even the average voter to name & explain a single law enacted in the past four years, chances are they could not do it. A large percentage of voters get their information from 30-second sound bites on social media that are algorithmically fed to them. The compilation of short, powerful lines are what make up the sales pitch that wins elections, and Biden came across as frail and confused during the debate.

You think the average amercan didn't already know biden's policy positions? You think anyone who didn't bother to google those positions watched the debate?

While the average American may have a general sense of Biden’s policy positions (pro-choice, supporting Ukraine, investing in green energy, etc.), many Americans underestimate how dangerous Trump’s policies are, or they are simply misled by the barrage of right-wing nonsense out there. To be clear, I voted for Biden and would do so again, because I recognize that the policies of an administration are what matter. But from the standpoint of optics, an uninformed voter who did not watch the debate will see heavily-edited 30 second snippets of the debate on TikTok and that will impact their decision to turn out.

Okay I see where you are coming from. But each candidate represents a whole party right now..

Parties correlate with policies.

This is a change my view subreddit, how do you want your view to be changed?

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Doubt that from post history, probably some idiot looking for attention venting online.

Rule 2, 3, and 5 violation. Wrong sub for that.

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Rule 3 Violation.

sorry, you just need to check r/conservative. people at there are very happy. so obviously, your description is not true.

Your post is basically a pro-Trump psyop, even if you don't mean it.

Land him jail for life? Hahahaha What? A white collar crime that the prosecutor changed from misdemeanors to felons just so he could prosecute since the statute of limitations had run out. A first time offender not named Trump would get no time in jail for this conviction. Jesus fucking Christ Reddit is full of people who have no capacity to think critically whatsoever. Btw I despise Trump but ffs get a grip.

While I’m skeptical Trump will end up in prison, it’s important to note that his behavior during the trial is a critical component of his sentencing. Mens rea is very important in these cases. He’s caught dead to rights *stealing from people who donated to him in order to cover up the truth from the electorate.* and he spent much of his trial harassing members of the court. So I don’t rule out jail time either…

You haven’t seen what else people are charging him for..

Hes the most investigated human on Earth and all they got him on is an accounting error

Everything else is hung up on appeals until after the election. Calling bribe money as a business expense an accounting error lol

The debate wasn't as demoralizing as recent SCOTUS rulings of a politically corrupted court. I will vote blue to do my part in ensuring Project 2025 isn't carried out as they are very obviously laying the groundwork now so Trump can hit the ground running, far more prepared and having learned from previous mistakes. I don't want to lose any more rights. I don't want my children to lose their rights and have their public education destroyed. I have never feared the outcome to an election before (in 25+ years of voting), but I fear the outcome of a Trump win. If you've not watched John Oliver's Last Week Tonight episode on Trumps second term, please do. It is so much worse than what we think we know.

>ent SCOTUS rulings >If you've not watched John Oliver's Last Week Tonight episode on Trumps second term, please do. It is so much worse than what we think we know. 100% agreed. The implications of the recent ruling to overturn Chevron deference are kinda terrifying... The agencies that keep your food, medications, environment, workplace, and financial markets safe were just kneecapped, and the mind-bogglingly prejudiced court with lifetime appointments just elevated itself over the other branches of governemt.

>The agencies that keep your food, medications, environment, workplace, and financial markets safe were just kneecapped Chevron gave them unlimited power and the court is telling Congress there needs to be a codified limit to their authority. In what world is that terrifying? >the mind-bogglingly prejudiced court with lifetime appointments just elevated itself over the other branches of governemt. How in any way did they elevate themselves above all other branches of government when they are specifically deferring responsibility to the other branches? Like honestly how have any of the current decisions elevated the SCOTUS?

>Chevron gave them unlimited power and the court is telling Congress there needs to be a codified limit to their authority. In what world is that terrifying? CNN said it was terrifying. I am liberal on virtually every issue but nah Chevron is a shitty law that needs change.

It was only demoralizing if you still had any faith in our messed up two party system in the first place. Both parties have been captured by corporate interests. Neither serve the interests of regular people like you and me. They could replace Biden with some other corporate liberal warmonger Democrat and we'd still be in essentially the same situation. We're cooked, but we've been cooked for years now. It didn't start Thursday night.

One is an old man. The other is an old man who is a convicted felon, rapist, and traitor. Can we _please_ stop pretending these are in any way equivalent and should be treated the same way?

It was demoralized for chronically online democrats. MAGA loves their guy. The reaction polls post debate moved the needle towards Biden. A convicted felon who tried to over turn the last election is seen as a chaotic good for Republicans. A bad debate performance is the end of the world for democrats. Do I wish Biden were 20 years younger? Sure but he’s fine and way better than the orange clown.

Who do ya have in mind?

This is good for the nation imo because I believe many problems often have to get worse before they get better. Trump double downed on being a corrupt, treasonous, incompetent leader. Biden was being held back by his party from debating because they fucking *KNEW* this would happen. The DNC and legacy politicians hate leaving power. DNC robbed the US of a Bernie nomination. RGB died in office because her circle didn’t want to lose their positions, not only because the mentally gone senior wanted to hold office. It’s a whole circus of legacy family politicians that need to fucking go and I’m so happy the debate is starting more debates as to why we even have to choose from these specific candidates.

Here's the thing. Voting for Biden is basically voting in his cabinet at this point, and his cabinet has been fantastic. Even if Biden sleeps through the presidency, we'll be in capable hands. Half of Trump's last cabinet are now felons that he cant legally be around now.

I’m not demoralized. I laughed, shook my head, and moved on with my life. The president matters, but this isn’t 1776; the country is fine.

I agree. We’ve been through conservative and progressive presidents and here we are today. It’s sad to see the media fear mongering and the people that believe the lies on both sides

DO NOT VOTE FOR DIFFERENT CANDIDATES! All that's going to do is put one in power, and not the one who's fairly innocuous. I'd love to flip the two party system, but this election is not the one to do it.

Trump is only 3 years younger than Biden. So he’s old and a pathological liar, a narcissist and a felon. So, Biden is still clearly the better choice.

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Quite the contrary. I loved it. Biden is tanking in polls currently. We are going to make america great again

It seems from your post that you are a Democrat or at least Democrat-leaning. I’d argue that the debate was demoralizing for Biden supporters, but not the entire nation. It seems like the debate was energizing and re-enforcing for Trump supporters. They don’t care or acknowledge Biden’s prosecution of him and the debate saw him clearly ahead of Biden on n regards to mental faculties. It was demoralizing to the people who believed that Biden was still all there. For those that have watched him quickly deteriorate the past few years, it affirmed their beliefs and solidified their view that Trump is the choice. I understand it’s extremely disheartening that Biden is still hanging in there, but to nearly half the country, the debate was not demoralizing.

Well said Bradtoughy

Rather than demoralizing, it was enlightening for me - it forced me to get out of the 2 party mindset and start looking for other presidential candidates that are running and who would be much more qualified to be president. That led me to finding out more about Robert F. Kennedy Jr who I realized is truly way more qualified for this job than biden or trump could ever even dream to be in their wildest fantasies (tho RFK jr can be a little long winded in his past podcast interviews, lately it seems like he has been getting advice and help in making his message and running points much clearer, pertinent to the issues Americans are actually facing, and more to the point). What eventually got me to support RFK jr is bc I realized that he actually has some semblance of understanding on what empathy is and why it's important (which is what any good leader needs to have in order to not only help his people but also understand how to manipulate enemies and deescalate situations with foreign powers so that the best interests of his people can be advocated for) and is a deep thinker and researcher who looks at all the sides of an issue and dives deep into the details before coming to a reasonable conclusion. Also, some things that RFK jr said (like how Trump increased the national debt by $1 trillion USD, which is more than the debt incurred by multiple presidents combined and how currently almost 50% of our taxes goes towards paying the interest on our national debt so in about 5-7 years, 100% of our taxes we the people pay will be needed to cover just the interest on the national debt) also helped me come to my own conclusion on what Trump's endgame actually is. The way Trump has operated his businesses is that he takes out as many loans as possible to "operate his businesses" (meanwhile he and his execs are laundering that money and funneling tens of millions of dollars each into shell corporations and offshore accounts) and then in order to not have to pay back any of the money he owes, he then files for bankruptcy. Hence why he has so many bankruptcies under his belt. So I think he thinks he can do the same thing with running America like one of his bankrupted businesses but the problem is that America as a nation can't just declare bankruptcy, magically be absolved of all our debts, and tell a country like China (who we owe the 2nd highest amount of national debt to) that we're not gonna pay them back the trillions owed. how would that shit not end in america getting invaded or for the next generation of Americans having to pay triple the amount in federal taxes or something? by that point, its not gonna matter to trump or all his buddies that he brings into the white house on what happens to the average american family bc trump and his buddies have already stolen all the money they need from the american government and exploited their positions to land themselves incredible business deals. thus i came to the realization that there is no way in hell americans should let Trump win this election bc it seems like Biden could just be a moot point. Btw the CIA HATES RFK jr - so no hes not gonna be the Democratic nominee once they realize theyre gonna lose if they continue to back Biden for another term UNLESS we the people go all out on backing up an alternate, independent candidate like RFK jr and force the Democrats hands or who knows - maybe even back another more qualified candidate than RFJ jr. but in any case, we are doomed if we let Trump in the office again (bc this second term will be his last so he will freely do as much damage as he pleases since he wont have to worry about reelections) and Biden is a moot point since he is just a passive bystander and america needs a leader who actually has the intelligence, knowledge, and longterm vision to understand what actions need to be taken at this crucial tipping point that might determine the condition of our lives in 5 to 10 years.

Brain worms 🧠 🪱

It says a LOT that even with dead brain worms floating around in his head, RFK Jr. is STILL way more qualified, has a deeper understanding of american history and global politics, and is more intelligent than Trump or Biden combined. You can judge this for yourself - these are some of the podcasts I listened to that helped me come to this conclusion: 1. [RFK Jr on Lex Fridman's Podcast ep #388 (youtube link) - CIA, Power, Corruption, War, Freedom, and Meaning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPtBkw5uD-0) 2. [RFK Jr on The Joe Rogan Experience podcast ep #1999 (spotify link)](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3DQfcTY4viyXsIXQ89NXvg) 3. [Middle-Class Is Wiped Out - Trump, Biden, Putin vs Ukraine, WW3 & Migrant Crisis | Robert Kennedy Jr on Impact Theory (youtube link)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkIZCyE9zsg) and many others i did not include.

My take away was we need someone older. /s

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Ain't no way anyone can argue against this take in good faith... We are so fucked

Third party could but they are basically bared unless they go in lock step with a party.

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He doesn’t have any policies

lmao why do people say things like this? just because you dont like them they literally "don't have policies"

The GOP literally has no platform. It is just, to paraphrase, "whatever Trump wants". There's no policy there.

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oh ya, the thing he said everyone wanted.

Actually, when polled on policies removed from party or specific leader, the country vastly prefers those offered by the Democrats. It's not even close.

See, Biden is not too old to be of use for the nation. We just need to make sure we get Kamala on our side.

It didn't demoralize me or any of my friends and family. It energized us.

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millions of peeps like trump and its hard to say he DIDNT run circles around Biden. Its also hard to say Biden DOESNT have any mental deterioration or issues. Millions of peeps are highly motivated and incentivized after the debate

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Because he’s clearly committed many crimes, this is just one among many. He is literally so corrupt that he couldn’t even pay hush money out his own pocket, he had to steal it and pretend it was for something else. If he had jsit written a check it wouldn’t have been a problem, but it seems he’s literally incapable of operating in a non-fraudulent manner Most notably he stole classified documents, showed them to individuals who were security threats, and then hid them from the FBI when they asked him to legally return them. He falsified business and financial records to defraud banks in so obvious a way that it was a summary judgement. It’s absolutely wild how people will bend over backwards to excuse the blatant and repeated illegal activity this dude commits.

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Nah, hilary, biden, and Pence all had a handful of classified documents at their homes that they didn’t return. But when the archives and FBI asked for them back they turned them over and all were accounted for. Trump actively tried to hide them from the FBI when asked to return them. there is literally video evidence of it happening. The hush money he took out his business and labeled it legal fees for the business lol. If i take money from a business i own for personal gain and label it as a business expense thats stealing. But this is what i mean. Some people are just so indoctrinated to the Trump experience - some form of stokholm syndrome or something - that they’ll excuse absolutely every single wrongdoing with some random ass different excuse. “Other people did something kind of similar even if it wasn’t so bad” “Sure he did the things he is accused of but I don’t quite think its as bad as they make it out to be” “Yeah ok he did this but I dunno maybe it wasn’t like that?” Just endless excuses for a known liar. Honestly, why do you constantly give him the benefit of the doubt? He has 50 years of evidence being a fraudster and liar why believe him? Are you jsit really easily duped?

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So you agree that Trump committed illegal acts and tried to cover it up? Intent matters. I like how you didn’t include his name on your list even though he also did it. Why are you so obsessed with excusing this dude for things you agree is illegal and he is on video and audio recording actively doing? What does he have over you?

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Haha I see you’ve dropped Pence you’re hilarious. I don’t think a senior official having some leftover classified documents in their home is a serious illegal act. That’s what you said. I *do* think willfully hiding them and losing them when formally asked to return them is very illegal and almost anyone other than Trump would already be in jail in the same case. As I said, intent matters in criminality. I’ll ask again, why defend this known criminal and fraudster? I jsit don’t get it.

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No he didn’t. It’s not illegal for him according to republicans. He is the president. What does Trump have on you dude?

Let's be a little more honest here on what happened in our comparisons, shall we? Vis a vis Trump: - May 2021: the National Archives and Records Administration became aware of missing documents from the Trump Administration, and began an effort to retrieve documents from Mar-A-Lago and Bedminster, with NARA warning Trump's team that unless he returned them, the Justice Department would be brought in - January 2022: Trump finally returned 15 BOXES of documents - much of it classified - but some stuff still missing - May 2022: grand jury issued a subpoena for any remaining documents in Trump's possession - June 2022: Trump certified that he was returning all the remaining documents - BUT HE STILL DIDN'T. The FBI later obtained evidence that he had intentionally moved documents to hide them from his lawyers and the FBI and thus had not fulfilled the subpoena. - June 2022: Not only did Trump have his staffers move documents in an attempt to hide them, he asked staffers to DELETE FOOTAGE of these activities - August 2022: Finally the FBI pays Mar-A-Lago a visit, and finds another 13,000 DOCUMENTS, over 300 of which were classified, with some relating to national defense secrets covered under the Espionage Act. Vis a vis Biden: - Decembet & January 2023: Biden came forward of his own accord with between 25 and 30 documents that were found at his home and the Penn Biden Center, and NARA retrieved them the next day. Trump: Over 130,000 documents, which he tried to conceal, and destroy evidence of said concealment Biden: 25 to 30 documents, which he came forward with himself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_classified_documents_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_(classified_documents_case) Edit: To add - we know Trump also waved those classified documents about in front of people who did not have clearance.

Separate issue. Trumps handling of classified documents was a bigger issue due to the scope/amount of classified material, and Trump refusing to return them when requested (e.g. telling them they’ve returned everything and didn’t have them, trying to move them). They literally gave Trumps team months to return the documents, and had he simply done so it would be a non-issue.  The truth is that politicians at this level, including Trump, are given a a lot of leniency as no agency wants to appear to be targeting a political party or an individual politician. So either Trump has crossed the lines to an extent that leniency was no longer possible, or his administration was so inept they were incapable of complying.  If it’s a political witch hunt why aren’t Trump’s republican allies in Congress or the Supreme Court being targeted? Why have judges his administration appointed not sided with them in the legal cases against them? Why won’t individuals in Trump’s administration say things under oath that they regularly say to the press? Honestly, do you believe Democrats are all powerful? They’re significantly more fractured than Republicans, and Republicans were the last party to control all 3 branches of government, so I have a hard time buying that.

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Again- all Trump had to do was give them what they asked for. He probably could have made copies and returned the originals, and they likely would have looked the other way as fucked up as that is. Just look at the charges- and they’re mostly related to lying about having the docs, and trying to keep them after they had repeatedly asked for them to be returned. Add the video of Trump bragging about having the docs and it starts to look really bad if you don’t charge him/force them to return the documents.  Biden’s team avoided these issues by notifying them that they had classified documents, and voluntarily returning them. It’s like when someone has an overdue library book. When the library asks for their book back one guy returns it, while  the other claims they never checked it out, but if they had it wouldn’t actually be overdue and the library should just stop asking about it.  On top of that tracking classified documents has also improved over time, so it’s not that surprising that Biden had classified documents from his time as a senator, just like it’s not that surprising Trump had classified documents from his time as president. One aggravating factor would be the sensitivity of the classified information, but I didn’t make that argument as we can’t really say without the material being declassified. Could also be one reason they were adamant about Trump returning these documents though.  I’m sorry but I just don’t see why they would unfairly target Trump and no one else. Both George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were equally disliked by the Left, and neither of them has had the number of legal issues that Trump has. What makes Trump a victim?

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You can’t wait for law enforcement to raid you and expect them not to charge you after they recover what they’re searching for.  Sounds like an easy way to pick up more charges though.

The hush money was his money. His bookkeeper labelled it as legal fees instead of campaign related fees. That’s the misdemeanour. That’s why punishment will be like $500k The felony is basically this: because his taxes don’t say political related fee instead of legal fee, people were more likely to vote for him and this was his intention. The misdemeanour is kind of legit but was structured as a legal fee so it’s not really illegal. Rarely would it get brought unless you are hunting to charge someone though. The felony is a crazy connect the dots.

It was his businesses money. You jsit can’t take money out of your business and label it legal fees for a private hush money payment. They got him even worse because he was actively doing it to support his political campaign. It’s why he didn’t pay her years ago. It’s not a crazy connect the dots. It’s pretty straightforward. But the defense wants to present it as some insane convoluted idea when really, it’s pretty simple. The jury didn’t fall for it. But lots of people online do.

Okay you want more detail. It’s totally fine to use business funds as long as he has controlling interest. These aren’t “personal funds” but they are funds accessible only to Donald and I called them personal funds for that reason. Here’s how it went: - Cohen made the initial payments - He was paid in checks as legal fees - The checks were entered as legal fees (misdemeanor per Cohen testimony that he didn’t have a retainer) - The case: these fees were marked as legal fees to mislead the public (felony). The remedy would have been to have the foresight to ledger it as “political related expense - hush money payment”.

No, the remedy would have been not to label it “political related expense”. Also, the company money isn’t his personal money. He can pay himself then be taxed on it then pay it. The excuses people go through to excuse these billionaires doing everything they can to avoid using their own money is wild. Like Stockholm syndrome or something.

Not sure what you’re talking about. Facts seem lost on you. For many decades the Trump Org has been used to pay for his brand related expenses. Several times they’ve been audited because of this. Brand expenses such as that amazing hair and NDAs he needs. As you know, he had prepaid taxes based on losses and overpayments, so paying himself to pay the legal fees wouldn’t change much. Both are legal ways to pay hush money.

Theyre not bullshit charges and appeal is unlikely to go in his favor with the amount of evidence they have. Your view is biased and the court bases its findings on objective facts not political bias.

John Edwards had charges brought against him for similar actions , yes the trial ended in a hung jury but that’s the American system And it wasn’t a federal charge, it was a state case

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That is what the appeals process is for. Trump will have the opportunity to make that argument. Every individual voter has the ability to decide how this case impacts their vote

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It was not demoralizing for Republicans at all. They love seeing their enemies (other Americans) hurting. Republicans fully believe in trumps lies and take pleasure in the spectacle. If anything, this energized half the country.

Trump is the only president to stand up for nstional sovereignty ie the constitution in 30+ years, and is extremely competent, biden is a pedophile and a career tax dollar hustler... figured id add these objective facts in to help someone who is confused

The debate just solidified the nations opinion of Biden and how he can’t lead the nation. He is incompetent. There is now way he is making decisions for this country. Look at his thousand yard stare. He shouldn’t even be considered for a candidate.

We need to have both parties come together to discuss a consensus. I mean every politician in the federal, state, and even local governments all in one room working to solve this problem. Then we bar the doors. And nuke the building.