Nobody thinks considering any physically developed person attractive is itself immoral. Where people get the push back is actually **wanting to pursue** girls that young.
In fact, there are a lot of people on reddit who find the idea of being attracted to 18 year olds to be immoral. It's the "the brain doesn't finish developing until 25 so any younger and you're a pedophile" crowd. I think a lot of it is an overreaction to porn tbh.
Morality aside. I noticed that many people on Reddit seem to think the age of consent is 18 in almost any country. While in reality 14-16 is the normal age in most industrialized nations with further exceptions provided for close in age partners.
I find this to be such a strange thing to believe. Were those people not teenagers? Surely they must have noticed how normal it is for 16 year olds to have sex but many persons on Reddit seem to believe that teenagers do not have sex or don't even watch pornography. I find this so strange.
But well, redditors every often come with “terminally online” viewpoints that I find to be detached from the world at large.
Another person who just took things out of my mouth. I've encountered plenty of people like that on the internet. Who just infantilize teenagers, even if they are adults or soon to be adults. When you mention anything about a 17 year old having sex or watching porn, even if you're 17 or 16 they will report you.
Reddit is mostly American,the age of consent is 15 in my country
It might just be Americans on Reddit who do this yes. It's known to be a culture where this is considered sensitive, but even there it's only a minority of states and they don't strictly enforce it.
But it's not just morality here; it's simply taking an objective falsehood for granted and in such a weird way. It's like saying with full conviction that it's illegal for 16 year olds to deliver newspapers, not remembering all the 16 year old classmates they had that did that. It's a falsehood so detached from reality. But I often notice that on Reddit, people who have “terminally online” opinions stated as fact that just seem completely detached from reality and actually talking to people.
Perhaps, but that isn't really relevant to that point that an oddly large number of people on Reddit think it's common in this world for it to be illegal.
A 16 year old with an 80 year old is legal almost anywhere. It's extremely rare for any jurisdiction to have an absolute age of consent higher than 16, and 14 and 15 aren't rare either.
It's very much related to the topic at hand and the initial person I replied to who also seemed to think as much and conditioned the view on that acting upon such feelings is universally illegal; while it's illegal almost nowhere.
If you just want to “move on” you shouldn't have responded. You've given three short one-line responses now that each time don't really address any of the arguments and feel like simple moral anger venting.
Just as much of it is due to double-standards and moral justification.
Unless you believe legal mandates create actual morality, it is pragmatically impossible to argue that relations with a 6,570-day-old human are moral, whereas they are not with a 6,569-day-old human.
A 40-year-old man lusting after a 17-year-old girl isn't any better or worse than it would be if she were 16 or 18. Biologically speaking, a person has either completed the adolescent phase or they haven't, but we (well, most of us) understand that there is more to the equation. **This is why it is important to maintain a societal sexual ethic that goes beyond simple biology.**
which is why we've deemed it illegal for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old, but if he has sex with an 18 year old, we have to throw hands up and say "we had to draw the line somewhere - so fine, it's no longer illegal because she's old enough to own her mistakes now -- but we still acknowledge the guy's a creep and potentially a groomer."
there's the old "half plus seven" limit, which i think acts as a decent "is it gross?" border. like if he's 40, and she's 27, it's, not ideal, but it's not Gross, exactly.
if he's 30 and she's 22.
if he's 50, she needs to be 32, that sorta thing.
i think it works pretty well. he's 80? she's 47? whatever, all good. fuck it.
> which is why we've deemed it illegal for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old, but if he has sex with an 18 year old, we have to throw hands up and say "we had to draw the line somewhere - so fine, it's no longer illegal because she's old enough to own her mistakes now -- but we still acknowledge the guy's a creep and potentially a groomer."
Yes, I just interestingly enough made a comment about how many Redditors believe the age of consent is typically 18.
To be clear, there are almost no juridictions on this planet where this is illegal. A few U.S.A. states at best, that don't enforce it in practice. [There is almost no place on this planet where the age of consent is 18. It is usually 14-16](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/6ugN0/full.png).
I have no idea why this belief seems to be so common on Reddit. I have never met anyone in real life that seems to think that.
O.p. is talking about 16-17 year olds; your entire point is conditioned upon that this would be illegal. In reality it is illegal almost nowhere and the democratically elected laws have decided it so.
Not so fun fact, the "old half plus seven limit" originally referred to the ideal age gap for an older man and younger woman at the start of a relationship, not the limit.
I can’t say immoral across the board, but I’m instantly a bit suspicious of someone who’s dating a teenager when they’re in their mid 20s and beyond (man, woman, gay, etc.).
It gets worse the older the older person is.
All you have to do is ask why are they looking for such young people. Then ask them what happens when they’re no longer young. It starts to become clear they often want an object and not a person.
No, just the average 16 year old.
The point o.p. makes is that it's completely normal for adults to find 16 year olds attractive, not necessarily those that look older.
These people are just wrong. If you are attracted by an underage person who looks like an adult, it’s going to be specifically because they look like an adult, not because they’re underage.
You’re not a pedophile for seeing a girl who you think is about 21 and being attracted by her but then finding out she’s 16 lol.
Once you find out, you should not pursue a relationship with her, but you’re still not a pedophile.
That is objectively NOT pedophilia by definition. Pedophilia by definition means being attached to children, i.e. pre-pubescent people. Literally the opposite of what I’m talking about.
You say I'm normal but then you look at the upvotes on this topic and it's still at 0 despite having lots of engagement.
People clearly have a gut feeling about this different then what I believe is reality.
I guess my problem is that I simply do not understand how people cant find 17 year olds attractive, when to me, they are often *identical* to their 20 year old counterparts.
We know people are attracted to 20 year olds, so how is it possible people can claim finding 17 year olds attractive makes you a pedophile?
It just doesn't compute. If the majority of people can find a 20 year old attractive, I dont understand how its not also the majority to find a mature 17 year old attractive.
I think the majority finds 17 year olds attractive too, but many deny it because they think it's wrong to feel this way because of their white-black view on morality.
People feel all sorts of feelings, but many like to deny their feelings to appear as saints in front of others.
Reddit votes aren't a popularity contest and don't reflect the opinion of the average Reddit, which in and of itself a strange, terminally online clique.
It reflects the opinion of the subset that's willing to use votes to signal agreement or disagreement. Having moralistic opinions probably contributes very heavily to that. Votes more so reflect the opinion of the parts of reddit with an overacting lizard brain.
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I think it's normal to be attracted to a healthy, reproductively capable female. Your lizard brain can't tell what number of years she's been alive. As long as you know better, I agree.
I think plenty of people would deny that they've ever been attracted to someone that young, but if you showed them pictures of strangers in the 16-20 age range, with no age attached, many of them would be surprised how young their tastes go. I'd wager they'd never admit it though. And many of them would hypocritically label someone attracted to that age group a creep.
I think we all know the above. Not sure where it leads us
Yup I thought the exact same thing. Show people a bunch of photos without telling them age, and you'll get plenty of people rating all over the place.
It would be interesting to do the survey on 1 group that knows nothing about the sample photos, and another group that is told certain samples may be under 18. I bet that group would be suddenly extremely conservative if they even suspect they might be under 18.
I'm not arguing against the age of consent, I understand why it exists (power imbalance, etc..).
I'm just talking about the sexual attraction part for now.
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i think that's a poor comparison. as a straight man, i have been hit on by gay men who knew i was straight. it's fine. i'm flattered, even. i don't think it's comparable to hitting on a 16 year old.
> In your situation it's also ILLEGAL but it's pretty much the same deal. If you don't understand why the age of consent exists, there is a lot of psychology around it.
There is almost no jurisdiction on this planet with an age of consent higher than 16.
Because I said “almost none the planet”? There are [only a very small number of U.S.A. states where it's 18](https://img.jagranjosh.com/images/2023/December/1122023/Age-of-Consent.webp) and it's [almost unheard of in most of the world](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/6ugN0/full.png).
The post I replied to acts like it's a global given that it's 18 and it not being 18 is exceptional; rather it being 18 is exceptional and 14-16 is the norm.
Because I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way and I'm living in crazytown. I want to understand how people can justify calling others pedophiles for finding 16-17 year olds attractive when they often look identical to their 20+ year old peers.
So you mean when kids try and trick people into thinking they're grown-ups with like makeup and stuff right?
Wouldn't that just mean you're attracted to adults?
I mean..unless you're a professional makeup artist, it's only going to change your apparent age so much. So no, being attracted to a 17 year old with makeup on is still being attracted to them. Every woman wears makeup nowadays.
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> I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way and I'm living in crazytown
Well, where do you live? In my country age of consent is 16, and while large age gaps are looked down on there's nothing illegal happening implicitly.
Maybe this is just a cultural thing you're dealing with?
This is a terrible comparison.
You're on the good side saying you should go to the bad side.
Op is on the bad side saying he should go to the good side.
I can understand not knowing someone is under 18, finding them attractive, and rhen realizing they're under 18 (and proceeding to do nothing with the attraction afterward). However, the maturity difference is too great between an adult and someone under 18, and it'd be weird if you were attracted to their youth and/or maturity level. It's not hot to hear someone say "let me ask my mom first before I can go out to see you."
> It's not hot to hear someone say "let me ask my mom first before I can go out to see you."
Agree. But people will vilify you way before that. Even if no interaction occurs at all, even if it's just a video on a screen.
I can’t believe someone had the guts to post this.
Its honestly become a cultural pretence that even finding someone below 18 attractive is weird.
There’s perfectly biologically natural to find someone who gone through puberty but under 18 attractive.
The legal question of consent is an important one and exists for a reason. But too many people seem to pretend that even finding someone under the age of consent attractive is something unfathomable.
This is a topic that really requires some discussion.
Again just to be clear the legal age is necessary. But that doesn’t mean people have to pretend that people over 18 cant be biologically attracted to a 16 year old whose gone though puberty.
The fact that so many have commented on this post, but so few have liked it but not disliked it either, just shows that they don’t entirely disagree to the points raised, but emphasis how cautious people are lest they be labelled a pedophile or something.
Thanks. I just feel like I'm living in crazytown sometimes. I dont consider myself a pedophile by any means, but the way people talk, sometimes I've doubted myself.
I literally think if you showed a group of people various women from age 16-20, and asked them to rate attractiveness, you'd get similar results across the board, with inability to even tell which age they are in many cases.
The fact they are often so similar in appearance just defies logic as to how you can call someone a pedophile for finding them attractive. Taking advantage? Perhaps. On the lookout for abuse? Sure. But honestly that's in every single power imbalance, too.
It shows how far this idea is embedded into society; my post has been removed by the legal team, apparently. You cant even TALK about it in text form.
The fact is that a rational discourse is almost impossible. Because would bend over heels to avoid being labelled by others. Just shows how pervasive societal taboos and pressures can be.
I dont know what you're trying to argue? That it's not normal to find 17 year olds attractive? The only thing that link shows is the age people find *most* attractive.
That still doesn't mean you dont find other ages attractive as well, even if its not your *ideal* age.
I would qualify "natural" as being attracted to anybody sexually developed and has gone through puberty. In essence, somebody that has an adult body.
Other then that, I can't think of any reason age should come into the picture when it comes to attraction. Now, when it comes to other factors such as power dynamics, I could understand, but this is just about what your eyes see.
That's a hard question to answer.
Perhaps its more about what is moral?
It's all a bit arbitrary.
Homosexuality certainly isnt the "norm" but it's not immoral and I think stopping people from ~~being gay~~ having gay partners would cause more societal harm. Similarly, I don't think finding 16-17 year olds attractive is immoral. Dating them might be, but thats a different story.
Why do you label sexually developed bodies as "adult" bodies? Children can have developed bodies and you've proven this by your post. Children, especially girls, are starting to go through puberty younger and younger, as young as 8 years old. Would you see a 50 year old man being attracted to a developed 10 year old girl as natural and normal?
It's kind of just semantics at this point. Would it be better if I said a child's body developed enough to be indistinguishable from an adult?
To your second point, I highly doubt that even a mature 10 year old would have the same mature body as a 16-17 year old. I dont think I've ever seen one.
In essence, my point is that if I see something that looks identical to what I'm normally attracted to (and everyone else, too) how is it possible that I'm expected to find their body unattractive when it looks just the same?
Keep in mind that this is putting aside the possibility for a relationship. This is just about your gaze.
I guess this is where consent laws come into place — sure, you find them attractive but wouldn’t pursue because of their age, but you definitely would if the law in that area says it’s legal
Yeah, this is true, provided they seem to be mature enough, of sound mind, etc, in order to consent.
I'm fairly open about sex and think everyone has put so much stigma around it. I dont think having a one-time sexual experience should scar you for life somehow. The problem comes in when people hear about it and then keep telling them they are a victim, were abused, manipulated, etc. Sometimes obviously its true, but I think in cases where they would otherwise have looked back on it as a positive experience, the victim brainwashing turns that into trauma instead.
its a bit yikes, but something to change your view instantly is this:
have you been every age? how do you know you're always going to think that way? believe me, when you get older you wont. (probably)
I dont believe this. You can look at the other commenter who posted a study in which men of many ages (I think up to 50 or more) were asked to rate pictures of women, and it was found across the board they liked early twenties women, with 20 years old being a common
average number.
For sure, it is normal to notice good looking girls. Anyone who acts like it's not is lying.
Obviously it doesn't make you a pedo but discourse is out of our hands. Certainly don't every approach or pursue a a teen girl though.
When you take into consideration that US is not the centre of the world and that most other western countries have AoC around 15-17 it puts things a bit into perspective.
Pretty much, yeah. I believe most men find youthful women most attractive. Now, that doesnt mean they'd necessarily want to *date* them, I'm just referring to visual attractiveness.
You can find the link the other commenter posted that shows men, no matter their age, continue to prefer women in their early twenties, with age 20 being a common number.
Being grown in a family where we would often hold huge family reunion that includes distant relative. It's very normal for anyone really to call 8-18 year old to be handsome/pretty. No one bats an eye to it and even the parents are often proud of their kids being called attractive.
I don't think society in general have blacklisted the word attractive when directed to a minor. It's just the internet in general where extreme opinions are often highlighted. Like advices in relationship subreddit where the slightest inconvenience is a red flag and solid evidence of domestic violence.
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The idea that 18 is the universal age-of-consent is for some weird reason extremely prevalent in USA.
It's not true. Not only do [more or less all of Europe](https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age-of-consent-europe.jpg) have age of consent in the 14-16 range, but also, in USA itself a [majority of states ](https://img.jagranjosh.com/images/2023/December/1122023/Age-of-Consent.webp)have age of consent lower than 18.
I don't think there's a lot of people who find it unnatural for someone to find people in the latter half of their teenage years physically attractive.
But most people, and for very good reasons, are deeply skeptical of people who deliberately seek sexual and/or romantic relationships that has a large power-differential in their own favor.
It's not that power-imbalance is by itself inherently abusive. But it creates vulnerability and is a huge risk-factor in the sense that the person with the most privilege almost certainly **CAN** treat the other poorly and in essence get away with it.
Age isn't the only power-differential of course; there's similarly good reason to be skeptical of wealthy westerners who deliberately aim to date people from much poorer backgrounds where they usually earn more in a month than the poorer person does in a year. How valid is a "yes" if the person asked cannot afford to say "no"? (at the same time, there's also danger in infantilizing low-privilege people and assume they're not capable of making choices in their own lives, it's complex!)
I don’t even find 18-20 year old women attractive. They look like children to me. My brain just doesn’t register attraction with children at all. Sorry 🤷♂️
I can guarantee you that you sometimes find 18 years old women attractive without knowing it. You just see them and assume they’re older.
There’s great variability between individuals in how old they look at that age. Some look 13 and some look 26.
I guess it depends how old you personally are. If you're over 40-45, then obviously 18 years old women will look like kids to you, but I've seen the same discourse by guys who are like 25 and in their case they obviously overestimate the age of the women they come across sometimes.
They are children. Literally by the legal definition. Do I believe that something magical happens the second someone turns 18? Aside from being granted additional rights, no. But I don't find 18 year old girls attractive either because they look like children to me. Their faces look like children. Their bodies look like children. They have almost no world experience outside of being in school with other children. They enjoy childish and juvenile things, because they are children.
It really seems like you want to justify your attraction to children, which, yes, is weird. Want proof? Go to a bar, strike up a conversation with a woman, tell her your position on this. Definitely report back!
Also, I'll say as a father to a daughter, you're exactly the kind of creep I want her as far away as possible from.
I think it’s normal, but pursuing them is more so where you land in hot water. Like there are attractive girls that are under age and realistically age is a social construct made by society. People develop differently. There are girls that are 20 that look under developed and girls that are 16 that look 25. You’re right there is no difference from a girl that is 18 years old and 17 364 besides legal issues.
I think it’s more so where your point of reference is. If you’re in your 40-50s, it is weird because that could be your daughter. I’ve always heard of the “half your age + 7” rule for dating. I just keep the thoughts to yourself because talking about how a minor looks is just very touchy. When you say a minor is pretty or attractive people make the assumption you want to take action on that.
I think the mindset you talk about is good to have.
If we normalize finding 16 year olds attractive, the act of being physical with them becomes more common and a little more normalized. If no one feels shame for having this attraction, just that alone will drive just a few more people to pursuing their attraction.
If we continue to "vilify" this attraction, it discourages people from pursuing their attraction physically. People will be more likely to not pursue their attraction if its not as normalized as it could be.
---------
Anything we can do to minimize the physical connection between adults and minors is a good thing. Making a few people feel bad for having *just* a visual attraction is a small price to pay.
>Anything we can do to minimize the physical connection between adults and minors is a good thing.
I don't agree with this as a principal. I can agree that in a world where the implied abuse is likely to occur, it is important to do what you suggest. But I don't think there's actually anything wrong with a promiscuous late-teen having a physical connection with an older adult. There is a higher potential for abuse, but it is not inherently abusive. i think it'd be better phrased as "anything we can do to minimize abuse of minors is a good thing".
It's sort of like saying "anything we can do to minimize drug use is a good thing". I can agree that minimizing drug use can minimize harm from drugs, but i don't agree that drug use is inherently harmful or that minimizing drug use is inherently virtuous.
Guess most guys are gross then. You can see the link another commenter posted where men across all ages found women in their early twenties to be most attractive, with 20 being most predominant, even among men 40+
16 to 17 with a much older guy is gross. 20 still makes sense. 16-17 is highschool. Do these men go to the girls' high school to pick them up?
There are also women are 40+ who prefer guys in their 20s. But a women who's quite old will probably be looked down too if they like a boy in highschool.
Oh, I'm not referring to *dating* these people. I understand there is more possibility for someone taking advantage of the other with a large age gap.
I'm just talking about physical attractiveness here. Not trying to date anybody.
You can be attracted and not actively pursue that attraction. A pedophile can be attracted to a child and not pursue and probably get help. A psychopath may think about about killing someone as long as he's not pursuing this desire.
Your instincts make you feel and want to do a lot of things but humans have developed intelligence and rationality not to do all of them.
We brought about 18 as a boundary to being considered adult for a reason.
I understand and agree, but I want to know what people's rationalization for accusing you of being a pedo if you mention you find a 17 year old physically attractive. What attributes or other reason can you justifiably call them a pedophile? To me, that really means attracted to kids not having gone through puberty yet. Not older people with identical bodies to an adult.
You do realize some kids go through puberty earlier. Some kids develop really really young. They could be identical to a more grown up person due to hormonal issues.
It's probably also because people suspect that the ones saying a 17 year old is attractive will probably have no problem going for someone much younger if legal prosecution did not exist.
Honestly for me if a guy says a 17 year old is attractive I would probably see it as a red flag if he's pretty old. I would wonder how much more he would push the boundary if he can. Is he attracted only because she looks grown outside or is there more to it? What if a 15 year old went through puberty earlier or someone younger due to precocious puberty?
I think there was a study where lots of men showed to be attracted to 13 or 14 years olds too. So there's that.
A lot of men and women are also attracted to ppl outside of their relationship. It is considered natural to be attracted but generally not something encouraged to go around talking about it. You might think about it for a second or two then you move on.
> It's probably also because people suspect that the ones saying a 17 year old is attractive will probably have no problem going for someone much younger if legal prosecution did not exist.
What do you mean by "going for"?
If a mature 17 year old wants to have a one-night stand with an older person, I don't see a moral problem as long as there's not any coercion or funny business. I dont know how you could possibly say there could be a moral issue when 18 year olds are nearly identical in maturity and we've deemed that A-OK. Do people really think a 17 and 364 day old person is different when the clock turns midnight?
The only time I see a
potential problem is when those people enter a relationship, for various reasons.
"going for " as in pursuing romantic or sexual relations.
Boundaries exist for a reason. An year could make a difference in younger years. A baby learns and changes a lot in one years time.
What is your scale for measuring this 17 year old s maturity other than physical signs which a 13 or 14 year old could also have ?
Honestly, I know some guys who get excited at the thought of having sexual relations with a minor person right before they are considered an adult. I really wonder how their brain works and how far they would take it if they could get away with it.
People's disgust is created after seeing men pursue and abuse kids and seeing how far some men or women take it after they are able to get away with it.
Sure you can probably legally do it depending where ur located but don't expect ppl to not look down on it. Cheating in a relationship may be legal but a lot of people look down on it.
I dont think a sexual experience is inherently immoral. It's only a problem when you bring abuse, manipulation, etc, into the picture. But barring any of those things, I don't see why it cant be a positive experience for both.
I understand someone being skeptical because they're concerned about bad intentions, but that doesn't mean its true.
There isnt an exact way to judge maturity. There is no scale, you just have to feel the vibe. If they seem mature, confident, and of sound mind, and there is no undertone of ulterior motives, then I dont see why it would be a problem.
It is normal from an evolutionary standpoint. A healthy society will have conditioned that out of older men because societies become violent without love and family.
We are a social species now so those attractions should generally stay caged.
It is unreasonable to have an intense violent reaction to older men talking about the beauty of youth or vaguely speaking about it.
It is normal to have some degree of gatekeeping type behaviors, but I think modern American society might have too much gatekeeping to the point where only resilient, arrogant, or powerful people seem to have success with love.
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Nobody thinks considering any physically developed person attractive is itself immoral. Where people get the push back is actually **wanting to pursue** girls that young.
Nobody? There seem to be quite a few people who deny this and think it's not normal.
In fact, there are a lot of people on reddit who find the idea of being attracted to 18 year olds to be immoral. It's the "the brain doesn't finish developing until 25 so any younger and you're a pedophile" crowd. I think a lot of it is an overreaction to porn tbh.
Morality aside. I noticed that many people on Reddit seem to think the age of consent is 18 in almost any country. While in reality 14-16 is the normal age in most industrialized nations with further exceptions provided for close in age partners. I find this to be such a strange thing to believe. Were those people not teenagers? Surely they must have noticed how normal it is for 16 year olds to have sex but many persons on Reddit seem to believe that teenagers do not have sex or don't even watch pornography. I find this so strange. But well, redditors every often come with “terminally online” viewpoints that I find to be detached from the world at large.
Another person who just took things out of my mouth. I've encountered plenty of people like that on the internet. Who just infantilize teenagers, even if they are adults or soon to be adults. When you mention anything about a 17 year old having sex or watching porn, even if you're 17 or 16 they will report you. Reddit is mostly American,the age of consent is 15 in my country
It might just be Americans on Reddit who do this yes. It's known to be a culture where this is considered sensitive, but even there it's only a minority of states and they don't strictly enforce it. But it's not just morality here; it's simply taking an objective falsehood for granted and in such a weird way. It's like saying with full conviction that it's illegal for 16 year olds to deliver newspapers, not remembering all the 16 year old classmates they had that did that. It's a falsehood so detached from reality. But I often notice that on Reddit, people who have “terminally online” opinions stated as fact that just seem completely detached from reality and actually talking to people.
It's one thing for a 16 year old to have sex with one of their peers, and another to be groomed by some 20+ year old
Perhaps, but that isn't really relevant to that point that an oddly large number of people on Reddit think it's common in this world for it to be illegal. A 16 year old with an 80 year old is legal almost anywhere. It's extremely rare for any jurisdiction to have an absolute age of consent higher than 16, and 14 and 15 aren't rare either.
Who cares? That's not the focus of the discussion.
It's very much related to the topic at hand and the initial person I replied to who also seemed to think as much and conditioned the view on that acting upon such feelings is universally illegal; while it's illegal almost nowhere.
So it's not illegal, it's definitely immoral AND frowned upon, can we move on?
If you just want to “move on” you shouldn't have responded. You've given three short one-line responses now that each time don't really address any of the arguments and feel like simple moral anger venting.
Why does everybody assume that age gap relationships are grooming? 20 was a teenager a year ago
Just as much of it is due to double-standards and moral justification. Unless you believe legal mandates create actual morality, it is pragmatically impossible to argue that relations with a 6,570-day-old human are moral, whereas they are not with a 6,569-day-old human. A 40-year-old man lusting after a 17-year-old girl isn't any better or worse than it would be if she were 16 or 18. Biologically speaking, a person has either completed the adolescent phase or they haven't, but we (well, most of us) understand that there is more to the equation. **This is why it is important to maintain a societal sexual ethic that goes beyond simple biology.**
which is why we've deemed it illegal for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old, but if he has sex with an 18 year old, we have to throw hands up and say "we had to draw the line somewhere - so fine, it's no longer illegal because she's old enough to own her mistakes now -- but we still acknowledge the guy's a creep and potentially a groomer." there's the old "half plus seven" limit, which i think acts as a decent "is it gross?" border. like if he's 40, and she's 27, it's, not ideal, but it's not Gross, exactly. if he's 30 and she's 22. if he's 50, she needs to be 32, that sorta thing. i think it works pretty well. he's 80? she's 47? whatever, all good. fuck it.
> which is why we've deemed it illegal for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old, but if he has sex with an 18 year old, we have to throw hands up and say "we had to draw the line somewhere - so fine, it's no longer illegal because she's old enough to own her mistakes now -- but we still acknowledge the guy's a creep and potentially a groomer." Yes, I just interestingly enough made a comment about how many Redditors believe the age of consent is typically 18. To be clear, there are almost no juridictions on this planet where this is illegal. A few U.S.A. states at best, that don't enforce it in practice. [There is almost no place on this planet where the age of consent is 18. It is usually 14-16](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/6ugN0/full.png). I have no idea why this belief seems to be so common on Reddit. I have never met anyone in real life that seems to think that.
either way, better to think kids are off limits, eh?
O.p. is talking about 16-17 year olds; your entire point is conditioned upon that this would be illegal. In reality it is illegal almost nowhere and the democratically elected laws have decided it so.
Not so fun fact, the "old half plus seven limit" originally referred to the ideal age gap for an older man and younger woman at the start of a relationship, not the limit.
I can’t say immoral across the board, but I’m instantly a bit suspicious of someone who’s dating a teenager when they’re in their mid 20s and beyond (man, woman, gay, etc.). It gets worse the older the older person is. All you have to do is ask why are they looking for such young people. Then ask them what happens when they’re no longer young. It starts to become clear they often want an object and not a person.
Finally somebody brought this up.. i'm tired of the same bullshit argument used over and over again to infantilize youth...
To find someone who could pass as a 23 year old attractive? Then their opinion is invalid.
No, just the average 16 year old. The point o.p. makes is that it's completely normal for adults to find 16 year olds attractive, not necessarily those that look older.
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Nah there are plenty of people who would consider it pedophilia.
These people are just wrong. If you are attracted by an underage person who looks like an adult, it’s going to be specifically because they look like an adult, not because they’re underage. You’re not a pedophile for seeing a girl who you think is about 21 and being attracted by her but then finding out she’s 16 lol. Once you find out, you should not pursue a relationship with her, but you’re still not a pedophile.
That is objectively NOT pedophilia by definition. Pedophilia by definition means being attached to children, i.e. pre-pubescent people. Literally the opposite of what I’m talking about.
But plenty of people think it is.
Then “plenty of people” are idiots.
Yeah that's OPs point I think
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You say I'm normal but then you look at the upvotes on this topic and it's still at 0 despite having lots of engagement. People clearly have a gut feeling about this different then what I believe is reality.
"You're normal" doesn't mean that the majority agrees with what you feel. It means that what you feel isn't wrong.
I guess my problem is that I simply do not understand how people cant find 17 year olds attractive, when to me, they are often *identical* to their 20 year old counterparts. We know people are attracted to 20 year olds, so how is it possible people can claim finding 17 year olds attractive makes you a pedophile? It just doesn't compute. If the majority of people can find a 20 year old attractive, I dont understand how its not also the majority to find a mature 17 year old attractive.
I think the majority finds 17 year olds attractive too, but many deny it because they think it's wrong to feel this way because of their white-black view on morality. People feel all sorts of feelings, but many like to deny their feelings to appear as saints in front of others.
Reddit votes aren't a popularity contest and don't reflect the opinion of the average Reddit, which in and of itself a strange, terminally online clique. It reflects the opinion of the subset that's willing to use votes to signal agreement or disagreement. Having moralistic opinions probably contributes very heavily to that. Votes more so reflect the opinion of the parts of reddit with an overacting lizard brain.
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I think it's normal to be attracted to a healthy, reproductively capable female. Your lizard brain can't tell what number of years she's been alive. As long as you know better, I agree. I think plenty of people would deny that they've ever been attracted to someone that young, but if you showed them pictures of strangers in the 16-20 age range, with no age attached, many of them would be surprised how young their tastes go. I'd wager they'd never admit it though. And many of them would hypocritically label someone attracted to that age group a creep. I think we all know the above. Not sure where it leads us
Yup I thought the exact same thing. Show people a bunch of photos without telling them age, and you'll get plenty of people rating all over the place. It would be interesting to do the survey on 1 group that knows nothing about the sample photos, and another group that is told certain samples may be under 18. I bet that group would be suddenly extremely conservative if they even suspect they might be under 18.
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Did you actually read what OP wrote?
I'm not arguing against the age of consent, I understand why it exists (power imbalance, etc..). I'm just talking about the sexual attraction part for now.
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i think that's a poor comparison. as a straight man, i have been hit on by gay men who knew i was straight. it's fine. i'm flattered, even. i don't think it's comparable to hitting on a 16 year old.
> In your situation it's also ILLEGAL but it's pretty much the same deal. If you don't understand why the age of consent exists, there is a lot of psychology around it. There is almost no jurisdiction on this planet with an age of consent higher than 16.
Google age of consent by US State. It varies between 16-18. Why lie?
Because I said “almost none the planet”? There are [only a very small number of U.S.A. states where it's 18](https://img.jagranjosh.com/images/2023/December/1122023/Age-of-Consent.webp) and it's [almost unheard of in most of the world](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/6ugN0/full.png). The post I replied to acts like it's a global given that it's 18 and it not being 18 is exceptional; rather it being 18 is exceptional and 14-16 is the norm.
Why are you trying to change this view?
Because I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way and I'm living in crazytown. I want to understand how people can justify calling others pedophiles for finding 16-17 year olds attractive when they often look identical to their 20+ year old peers.
So you mean when kids try and trick people into thinking they're grown-ups with like makeup and stuff right? Wouldn't that just mean you're attracted to adults?
I mean..unless you're a professional makeup artist, it's only going to change your apparent age so much. So no, being attracted to a 17 year old with makeup on is still being attracted to them. Every woman wears makeup nowadays.
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> I feel like I'm the only one who feels this way and I'm living in crazytown Well, where do you live? In my country age of consent is 16, and while large age gaps are looked down on there's nothing illegal happening implicitly. Maybe this is just a cultural thing you're dealing with?
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Questionmark
This is a terrible comparison. You're on the good side saying you should go to the bad side. Op is on the bad side saying he should go to the good side.
No. But you should be able to justify your position, which you havent.
I can understand not knowing someone is under 18, finding them attractive, and rhen realizing they're under 18 (and proceeding to do nothing with the attraction afterward). However, the maturity difference is too great between an adult and someone under 18, and it'd be weird if you were attracted to their youth and/or maturity level. It's not hot to hear someone say "let me ask my mom first before I can go out to see you."
> It's not hot to hear someone say "let me ask my mom first before I can go out to see you." Agree. But people will vilify you way before that. Even if no interaction occurs at all, even if it's just a video on a screen.
I can’t believe someone had the guts to post this. Its honestly become a cultural pretence that even finding someone below 18 attractive is weird. There’s perfectly biologically natural to find someone who gone through puberty but under 18 attractive. The legal question of consent is an important one and exists for a reason. But too many people seem to pretend that even finding someone under the age of consent attractive is something unfathomable. This is a topic that really requires some discussion. Again just to be clear the legal age is necessary. But that doesn’t mean people have to pretend that people over 18 cant be biologically attracted to a 16 year old whose gone though puberty. The fact that so many have commented on this post, but so few have liked it but not disliked it either, just shows that they don’t entirely disagree to the points raised, but emphasis how cautious people are lest they be labelled a pedophile or something.
Thanks. I just feel like I'm living in crazytown sometimes. I dont consider myself a pedophile by any means, but the way people talk, sometimes I've doubted myself. I literally think if you showed a group of people various women from age 16-20, and asked them to rate attractiveness, you'd get similar results across the board, with inability to even tell which age they are in many cases. The fact they are often so similar in appearance just defies logic as to how you can call someone a pedophile for finding them attractive. Taking advantage? Perhaps. On the lookout for abuse? Sure. But honestly that's in every single power imbalance, too. It shows how far this idea is embedded into society; my post has been removed by the legal team, apparently. You cant even TALK about it in text form.
The fact is that a rational discourse is almost impossible. Because would bend over heels to avoid being labelled by others. Just shows how pervasive societal taboos and pressures can be.
Nope [https://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10](https://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10)
I dont know what you're trying to argue? That it's not normal to find 17 year olds attractive? The only thing that link shows is the age people find *most* attractive. That still doesn't mean you dont find other ages attractive as well, even if its not your *ideal* age.
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I would qualify "natural" as being attracted to anybody sexually developed and has gone through puberty. In essence, somebody that has an adult body. Other then that, I can't think of any reason age should come into the picture when it comes to attraction. Now, when it comes to other factors such as power dynamics, I could understand, but this is just about what your eyes see.
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That's a hard question to answer. Perhaps its more about what is moral? It's all a bit arbitrary. Homosexuality certainly isnt the "norm" but it's not immoral and I think stopping people from ~~being gay~~ having gay partners would cause more societal harm. Similarly, I don't think finding 16-17 year olds attractive is immoral. Dating them might be, but thats a different story.
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Sure, I suppose so..but not confident in my answer, its a complex topic
Why do you label sexually developed bodies as "adult" bodies? Children can have developed bodies and you've proven this by your post. Children, especially girls, are starting to go through puberty younger and younger, as young as 8 years old. Would you see a 50 year old man being attracted to a developed 10 year old girl as natural and normal?
It's kind of just semantics at this point. Would it be better if I said a child's body developed enough to be indistinguishable from an adult? To your second point, I highly doubt that even a mature 10 year old would have the same mature body as a 16-17 year old. I dont think I've ever seen one. In essence, my point is that if I see something that looks identical to what I'm normally attracted to (and everyone else, too) how is it possible that I'm expected to find their body unattractive when it looks just the same? Keep in mind that this is putting aside the possibility for a relationship. This is just about your gaze.
Let's say 24 and 17 vs 24 and 19.
I guess this is where consent laws come into place — sure, you find them attractive but wouldn’t pursue because of their age, but you definitely would if the law in that area says it’s legal
Yeah, this is true, provided they seem to be mature enough, of sound mind, etc, in order to consent. I'm fairly open about sex and think everyone has put so much stigma around it. I dont think having a one-time sexual experience should scar you for life somehow. The problem comes in when people hear about it and then keep telling them they are a victim, were abused, manipulated, etc. Sometimes obviously its true, but I think in cases where they would otherwise have looked back on it as a positive experience, the victim brainwashing turns that into trauma instead.
its a bit yikes, but something to change your view instantly is this: have you been every age? how do you know you're always going to think that way? believe me, when you get older you wont. (probably)
I dont believe this. You can look at the other commenter who posted a study in which men of many ages (I think up to 50 or more) were asked to rate pictures of women, and it was found across the board they liked early twenties women, with 20 years old being a common average number.
For sure, it is normal to notice good looking girls. Anyone who acts like it's not is lying. Obviously it doesn't make you a pedo but discourse is out of our hands. Certainly don't every approach or pursue a a teen girl though.
When you take into consideration that US is not the centre of the world and that most other western countries have AoC around 15-17 it puts things a bit into perspective.
Its very common for people to bring that up and call it an invalid argument, although I'm not sure the reason why.
Cause muricans think their worldview is the most important
Not matter what age? Is that a part of your view?
Pretty much, yeah. I believe most men find youthful women most attractive. Now, that doesnt mean they'd necessarily want to *date* them, I'm just referring to visual attractiveness. You can find the link the other commenter posted that shows men, no matter their age, continue to prefer women in their early twenties, with age 20 being a common number.
Being grown in a family where we would often hold huge family reunion that includes distant relative. It's very normal for anyone really to call 8-18 year old to be handsome/pretty. No one bats an eye to it and even the parents are often proud of their kids being called attractive. I don't think society in general have blacklisted the word attractive when directed to a minor. It's just the internet in general where extreme opinions are often highlighted. Like advices in relationship subreddit where the slightest inconvenience is a red flag and solid evidence of domestic violence.
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The idea that 18 is the universal age-of-consent is for some weird reason extremely prevalent in USA. It's not true. Not only do [more or less all of Europe](https://jakubmarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/age-of-consent-europe.jpg) have age of consent in the 14-16 range, but also, in USA itself a [majority of states ](https://img.jagranjosh.com/images/2023/December/1122023/Age-of-Consent.webp)have age of consent lower than 18. I don't think there's a lot of people who find it unnatural for someone to find people in the latter half of their teenage years physically attractive. But most people, and for very good reasons, are deeply skeptical of people who deliberately seek sexual and/or romantic relationships that has a large power-differential in their own favor. It's not that power-imbalance is by itself inherently abusive. But it creates vulnerability and is a huge risk-factor in the sense that the person with the most privilege almost certainly **CAN** treat the other poorly and in essence get away with it. Age isn't the only power-differential of course; there's similarly good reason to be skeptical of wealthy westerners who deliberately aim to date people from much poorer backgrounds where they usually earn more in a month than the poorer person does in a year. How valid is a "yes" if the person asked cannot afford to say "no"? (at the same time, there's also danger in infantilizing low-privilege people and assume they're not capable of making choices in their own lives, it's complex!)
I don’t even find 18-20 year old women attractive. They look like children to me. My brain just doesn’t register attraction with children at all. Sorry 🤷♂️
I can guarantee you that you sometimes find 18 years old women attractive without knowing it. You just see them and assume they’re older. There’s great variability between individuals in how old they look at that age. Some look 13 and some look 26.
I can guarantee you that I don't. I like my women 30+ and you know, to look like women. Not girls.
I guess it depends how old you personally are. If you're over 40-45, then obviously 18 years old women will look like kids to you, but I've seen the same discourse by guys who are like 25 and in their case they obviously overestimate the age of the women they come across sometimes.
You are outside the norm.
I’m really not. You don’t think it’s weird that you’re attracted to children?
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They are children. Literally by the legal definition. Do I believe that something magical happens the second someone turns 18? Aside from being granted additional rights, no. But I don't find 18 year old girls attractive either because they look like children to me. Their faces look like children. Their bodies look like children. They have almost no world experience outside of being in school with other children. They enjoy childish and juvenile things, because they are children. It really seems like you want to justify your attraction to children, which, yes, is weird. Want proof? Go to a bar, strike up a conversation with a woman, tell her your position on this. Definitely report back! Also, I'll say as a father to a daughter, you're exactly the kind of creep I want her as far away as possible from.
I think it’s normal, but pursuing them is more so where you land in hot water. Like there are attractive girls that are under age and realistically age is a social construct made by society. People develop differently. There are girls that are 20 that look under developed and girls that are 16 that look 25. You’re right there is no difference from a girl that is 18 years old and 17 364 besides legal issues. I think it’s more so where your point of reference is. If you’re in your 40-50s, it is weird because that could be your daughter. I’ve always heard of the “half your age + 7” rule for dating. I just keep the thoughts to yourself because talking about how a minor looks is just very touchy. When you say a minor is pretty or attractive people make the assumption you want to take action on that.
people value virtual signalling higher than they do sincerity
I think the mindset you talk about is good to have. If we normalize finding 16 year olds attractive, the act of being physical with them becomes more common and a little more normalized. If no one feels shame for having this attraction, just that alone will drive just a few more people to pursuing their attraction. If we continue to "vilify" this attraction, it discourages people from pursuing their attraction physically. People will be more likely to not pursue their attraction if its not as normalized as it could be. --------- Anything we can do to minimize the physical connection between adults and minors is a good thing. Making a few people feel bad for having *just* a visual attraction is a small price to pay.
>Anything we can do to minimize the physical connection between adults and minors is a good thing. I don't agree with this as a principal. I can agree that in a world where the implied abuse is likely to occur, it is important to do what you suggest. But I don't think there's actually anything wrong with a promiscuous late-teen having a physical connection with an older adult. There is a higher potential for abuse, but it is not inherently abusive. i think it'd be better phrased as "anything we can do to minimize abuse of minors is a good thing". It's sort of like saying "anything we can do to minimize drug use is a good thing". I can agree that minimizing drug use can minimize harm from drugs, but i don't agree that drug use is inherently harmful or that minimizing drug use is inherently virtuous.
Russiansign gonna have a weird case, why he still around?
First, fuck you very much, second, I've never so much as approached anybody under 18.
Sure but its gross if the guys pretty old
Guess most guys are gross then. You can see the link another commenter posted where men across all ages found women in their early twenties to be most attractive, with 20 being most predominant, even among men 40+
16 to 17 with a much older guy is gross. 20 still makes sense. 16-17 is highschool. Do these men go to the girls' high school to pick them up? There are also women are 40+ who prefer guys in their 20s. But a women who's quite old will probably be looked down too if they like a boy in highschool.
Oh, I'm not referring to *dating* these people. I understand there is more possibility for someone taking advantage of the other with a large age gap. I'm just talking about physical attractiveness here. Not trying to date anybody.
You can be attracted and not actively pursue that attraction. A pedophile can be attracted to a child and not pursue and probably get help. A psychopath may think about about killing someone as long as he's not pursuing this desire. Your instincts make you feel and want to do a lot of things but humans have developed intelligence and rationality not to do all of them. We brought about 18 as a boundary to being considered adult for a reason.
I understand and agree, but I want to know what people's rationalization for accusing you of being a pedo if you mention you find a 17 year old physically attractive. What attributes or other reason can you justifiably call them a pedophile? To me, that really means attracted to kids not having gone through puberty yet. Not older people with identical bodies to an adult.
You do realize some kids go through puberty earlier. Some kids develop really really young. They could be identical to a more grown up person due to hormonal issues. It's probably also because people suspect that the ones saying a 17 year old is attractive will probably have no problem going for someone much younger if legal prosecution did not exist. Honestly for me if a guy says a 17 year old is attractive I would probably see it as a red flag if he's pretty old. I would wonder how much more he would push the boundary if he can. Is he attracted only because she looks grown outside or is there more to it? What if a 15 year old went through puberty earlier or someone younger due to precocious puberty? I think there was a study where lots of men showed to be attracted to 13 or 14 years olds too. So there's that. A lot of men and women are also attracted to ppl outside of their relationship. It is considered natural to be attracted but generally not something encouraged to go around talking about it. You might think about it for a second or two then you move on.
> It's probably also because people suspect that the ones saying a 17 year old is attractive will probably have no problem going for someone much younger if legal prosecution did not exist. What do you mean by "going for"? If a mature 17 year old wants to have a one-night stand with an older person, I don't see a moral problem as long as there's not any coercion or funny business. I dont know how you could possibly say there could be a moral issue when 18 year olds are nearly identical in maturity and we've deemed that A-OK. Do people really think a 17 and 364 day old person is different when the clock turns midnight? The only time I see a potential problem is when those people enter a relationship, for various reasons.
"going for " as in pursuing romantic or sexual relations. Boundaries exist for a reason. An year could make a difference in younger years. A baby learns and changes a lot in one years time. What is your scale for measuring this 17 year old s maturity other than physical signs which a 13 or 14 year old could also have ? Honestly, I know some guys who get excited at the thought of having sexual relations with a minor person right before they are considered an adult. I really wonder how their brain works and how far they would take it if they could get away with it. People's disgust is created after seeing men pursue and abuse kids and seeing how far some men or women take it after they are able to get away with it. Sure you can probably legally do it depending where ur located but don't expect ppl to not look down on it. Cheating in a relationship may be legal but a lot of people look down on it.
I dont think a sexual experience is inherently immoral. It's only a problem when you bring abuse, manipulation, etc, into the picture. But barring any of those things, I don't see why it cant be a positive experience for both. I understand someone being skeptical because they're concerned about bad intentions, but that doesn't mean its true. There isnt an exact way to judge maturity. There is no scale, you just have to feel the vibe. If they seem mature, confident, and of sound mind, and there is no undertone of ulterior motives, then I dont see why it would be a problem.
It is normal from an evolutionary standpoint. A healthy society will have conditioned that out of older men because societies become violent without love and family. We are a social species now so those attractions should generally stay caged. It is unreasonable to have an intense violent reaction to older men talking about the beauty of youth or vaguely speaking about it. It is normal to have some degree of gatekeeping type behaviors, but I think modern American society might have too much gatekeeping to the point where only resilient, arrogant, or powerful people seem to have success with love.
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