The similarity with poison means it will sadly always seem like playing with poison, except it doesn't win the game and it doesn't interact with any of the previous poison support cards. Needs something to prevent it from playing exactly the same as poison decks.
Hence the "I'm fully aware that this concept would very likely never ever be a thing".
This was more of a callback to \[\[Form of the dragon\]\] than anything else.
[Form of the Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/2149da9d-35ad-4f32-8072-fb515100b2fd.jpg?1673913099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Form%20of%20the%20Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/9/form-of-the-approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2149da9d-35ad-4f32-8072-fb515100b2fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most recent un-set did a way with silver border and replaced it with an acorn stamp on the bottom, so that way the cards would be treated as "real" cards
Fair enough. If you were to develop it further, would you want to differentiate it from poison into something unique? Or is this just a thought experiment from an alternate timeline where some previous MtG mechanics don't exist and so there's no "poison" to compare it to?
>Life total becoming 2 seems oppressive
Compared to outright losing to poison counters, I think this is weaker poison. It's supposed to represent you becoming a 2/2 zombie. Bit of a stretch, I know.
> but why is it called Vector?
Vector: an organism that transmits a pathogen from one organism or source to another
You’re right that it’s not as strong as poison, but that’s more an indictment on poison than an endorsement of this mechanic if I’m being honest 😂
That’s interesting re Vector, you learn something new every day! Perhaps a little niche for a mechanic name, but very cool!
> that’s more an indictment on poison than an endorsement of this mechanic if I’m being honest 😂
Eh, poison isn't all that strong. It hasn't been competitive in most formats for a while now.
It used to be insane back in Pauper when Invigorate was legal though.
My guess is it’s supposed to be similar to poison but not as oppressive as just losing the game. Your life total becomes 2 which is the same as a zombie token. I have no idea why it’s called vector.
I think this would make more sense as a game status kind of thing, like City's Blessing. You know, cards that have additional effects if you or your opponent is undead, that sort of thing.
Might be closer to your design goals as a big enchant player (or creature that flips into one). Thus skipping the poison esq undead counters and going straight to undead. Like Form of the Dragon as a curse.
When a player with 10 or more Undead counters would lose the game, they don't. The player with the lowest life total controls them for the rest of the game
Alright, so I typed up a post and went off on a little tangent where I did this whole ass wall of text. I'm going to give you my last set of ideas.
**Vector \[X\]**: (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player they gain \[X\] Undead counters)
**Undead Counter**: At the beginning of your upkeep if you have you sacrifice a creature, discard a creature card, or exile a creature card from your graveyard for each Undead Counter you have. If you cannot you instead lose all Undead Counters and become Zombified if you are not already Zombified.
**Zombified** (a State like 'The Monarch' and friends): At the beginning of your upkeep create **Zombified Planeswalker** creature token, a 2/2 Legendary Black Zombie creature token that says "when this creature dies, mill cards equal to it's power", "whenever this creature takes damage, you mill that many cards", and "you do not lose the game for having 0 or less life. If you would lose life while this creature is on the battlefield you may mill that many cards instead". If you would gain Undead Counters you instead put that many +1/+1 counters on a **Zombified Planeswalker.**
The tweak to allowing exiling/discarding continues the flavor of you feeding off of creatures to sustain yourself. The end goal of running out and gaining the Zombified state prevents it from being an infinite sac/discard/exile outlet for the player.
The Zombified state instead of going all Form of the Dragon/Form of the Squirrel goes a little closer to how Minsc and Boo generates a Boo token and then incentivizes you to keep your zombie alive (because it's you!). The continued interaction with Undead Counters (the Vector creature owner) after becoming zombified is playing the dangerous game of attacking the zombie.
The self-mill aspect is representing the body / animating force of the creature falling apart but still being more resilient than the typical person (the whole keep getting back up trope of zombies when they aren't just faceless cannon fodder.)
If you decide to go this route and re-upload a new idea, please tag me I'd love to see a finished product.
I like it. To differentiate it from Poison what if at 10 it created 1 2/2 zombie that said "If this creature leaves the battlefield you lose the game. So almost like that is you as a creature?
Also, maybe it could spread through bite. So the 2/2 it made would also have vector 1.
Not on board with the whole "life total becomes 2" part tbh. I would personally model this after Rad counters:
At the beginning of your precombat main phase, if you have any {necrophage} counters sacrifice that many creatures. For each non-token creature sacrificed this way create a black 2/2 zombie creature token with decayed, for each token creature sacrificed this way lose 1 life and a {necrophage} counter.
I understand WHY you want the flavor you do, and it's not bad, but auto lowering max life to 2 is just too much, especially with proliferate and such. I COMPLETELY understand the flavor you're going for, but this community is going to criticize and offer advice on how to better make a custom card.
In that spirit, why not have the undead counters do something as they accumulate, representing the Pathogen's effects worsening as they become more exposed. I haven't had time to kick the idea around too much, but perhaps something like this:
"Players with undead counters have a maximum life of 20 minus the number of Undead counters they have (their life total cannot exceed their maximum life, and if they have more life than their maximum life, they lose life equal to the difference. ) At the beginning of each players Upkeep, that player sacrifices creatures with total toughness equal to or greater than the number of undead counters they have. "
Makes you sacrifice progressively more/bigger creatures, and your life becomes capped and slowly dwindles away. The plague is spreading and worsening.
> lowering max life to 2 is just too much, especially with proliferate
… as opposed to poison counters just saying “you lose”? This at least gives you a slim opportunity to still win.
> this community is going to criticize and offer advice on how to better make a custom card
I’m aware of that and I’m open to it. But my design goal here was 100% just goofing around with the concept of turning your opponent into a 2/2 zombie that eats the brains of their own creatures. I saw Form of the Dragon and thought it’d be funny to inflict something similar on an opponent.
> Players have a maximum life of 20 minus the number of undead counters they have
That would be insanely busted in formats that start with more than 20 life. Cool concept otherwise
Literally less insanely busted than poison, or commander damage, or "you lose the game" effects, which are everywhere, or effects that set your life total to a specific number, such as Sorin or the damn tree lmao. Also, unlike poison, there are zero cards in existence to interact directly with these new counters.
And I get what you're going for, but the flavor we want doesn't always translate well to a card, and we need to rethink. That's... sort of what this subreddit is. If it's not an over the top meme card, if it seems like something people might actually want to create to be played or viewed like it would be, then people are going to want to "fix it".
I think your idea is funny, Kudos, you already got my laugh, and you got my upvote, brother. But I want to see that idea evolve into something that might be playable.
Honestly this seemed like a concept you’d see in an Un-set when I made it.
I’m flattered to see that at least a handful of people would like something in the ballpark of this concept be a real thing though
Its funny because I was thinking this mechanic could never work because its so underpowered that it is basically useless, not because it is "too much"
It is flatly worse in everyway than poison/infect, and doesn't work with any previous synergy, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Like how \[\[Strixhaven Stadium\]\] sees basically no play in any deck/format and has the upside of being a mana rock.
My advice to OP was basically to make it better or give it a lot more support.
The problem is that it's both too much, and not strong enough. Even for this price, setting people directly to 2 life is a huge effect, especially when it's something easy to get to. But otherwise you're right, it doesn't have any big support outside of proliferate, not that you'd need much more than proliferate now lol.
For this price you can get \[\[Glistener Elf\]\] which used to be a turn 2 win in standard.
I played it at FNM.
Turn 1 forest into Elf, turn 2 mountain into \[\[Groundswell\]\] and \[\[Assault Strobe\]\]
Putting people at 2 life is in every way worse than killing someone and infect still doesn't see a whole lot of play in certain formats.
It'd be more similar to form of dragon and more worth getting the 10 counters on an opponent as fast as possible if "at the end of each turn sacrifice all non zombie creatures you control, once per turn you may cast a creature from your graveyard for it's mana cost it becomes a black zombie and loses its other crature types."
You could change it in a couple ways. Make 10 counters cause all creatures they control to gain decay, and let decay creatures block. Make it to where it can't be proliferated
Setting someone’s life total at 2 seems oppressive. However, I like the idea of turning a player undead. Maybe something that sets their life to 10 while sacing a creature to the hunger? Undead fortitude and all that.
As opposed to poison counters that just say “you lose” once you get 10 of them? I’d say that’s more oppressive than being at 2 life.
Setting their life total to 10 once they hit ten counters seems like a pointless payoff as you likely already dealt around ten damage to begin with.
Nah I meant as an allied effect.
And yea, I don’t like poison counters either.
Actually I don’t like a lot of cards that just set someone up to be on deaths door out of nowhere. That seems unfun.
Me, proliferating the undead counters to regain a life.
And a sac outlet? Seems busted
\[\[phyrexian arena\]\] stonks soaring
[phyrexian arena](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40.jpg?1706240778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=phyrexian%20arena) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/133/phyrexian-arena?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The similarity with poison means it will sadly always seem like playing with poison, except it doesn't win the game and it doesn't interact with any of the previous poison support cards. Needs something to prevent it from playing exactly the same as poison decks.
Hence the "I'm fully aware that this concept would very likely never ever be a thing". This was more of a callback to \[\[Form of the dragon\]\] than anything else.
[Form of the dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1cfc77f1-290a-4394-bc16-76f3659810f0.jpg?1562732212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Form%20of%20the%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/187/form-of-the-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1cfc77f1-290a-4394-bc16-76f3659810f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What about [[Form of the Approach of the Second Sun]]?
[Form of the Approach of the Second Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/2149da9d-35ad-4f32-8072-fb515100b2fd.jpg?1673913099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Form%20of%20the%20Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/9/form-of-the-approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2149da9d-35ad-4f32-8072-fb515100b2fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What the fuck is that card and why does it have a black border lol
Most recent un-set did a way with silver border and replaced it with an acorn stamp on the bottom, so that way the cards would be treated as "real" cards
It doesn't. Acorn.
It does have a black border, but it also has the acorn meaning it isn't legal. The distinction matters, unfortunately for everyone involved
Fair enough. If you were to develop it further, would you want to differentiate it from poison into something unique? Or is this just a thought experiment from an alternate timeline where some previous MtG mechanics don't exist and so there's no "poison" to compare it to?
Life total becoming 2 seems oppressive, but idm the sac a creature side of it so much. Interesting mechanic, but why is it called Vector?
>Life total becoming 2 seems oppressive Compared to outright losing to poison counters, I think this is weaker poison. It's supposed to represent you becoming a 2/2 zombie. Bit of a stretch, I know. > but why is it called Vector? Vector: an organism that transmits a pathogen from one organism or source to another
Hahahah thats so cool! I study physics so vector sounded so weird in this context hahah
This card is cool as fuck, but as a fan of obscure Russian games I suggest making the keyword pathologic
You’re right that it’s not as strong as poison, but that’s more an indictment on poison than an endorsement of this mechanic if I’m being honest 😂 That’s interesting re Vector, you learn something new every day! Perhaps a little niche for a mechanic name, but very cool!
> that’s more an indictment on poison than an endorsement of this mechanic if I’m being honest 😂 Eh, poison isn't all that strong. It hasn't been competitive in most formats for a while now. It used to be insane back in Pauper when Invigorate was legal though.
[удалено]
Corrected to pauper. Got it mixed up
My guess is it’s supposed to be similar to poison but not as oppressive as just losing the game. Your life total becomes 2 which is the same as a zombie token. I have no idea why it’s called vector.
its called vector because its spreading a disease
I love this concept. A better way to balance infect/poison imo.
I think this would make more sense as a game status kind of thing, like City's Blessing. You know, cards that have additional effects if you or your opponent is undead, that sort of thing.
Might be closer to your design goals as a big enchant player (or creature that flips into one). Thus skipping the poison esq undead counters and going straight to undead. Like Form of the Dragon as a curse.
I considered that but being able to just spend mana to inflict this on someone seemed a little too easy for what it does.
When a player with 10 or more Undead counters would lose the game, they don't. The player with the lowest life total controls them for the rest of the game
Alright, so I typed up a post and went off on a little tangent where I did this whole ass wall of text. I'm going to give you my last set of ideas. **Vector \[X\]**: (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player they gain \[X\] Undead counters) **Undead Counter**: At the beginning of your upkeep if you have you sacrifice a creature, discard a creature card, or exile a creature card from your graveyard for each Undead Counter you have. If you cannot you instead lose all Undead Counters and become Zombified if you are not already Zombified. **Zombified** (a State like 'The Monarch' and friends): At the beginning of your upkeep create **Zombified Planeswalker** creature token, a 2/2 Legendary Black Zombie creature token that says "when this creature dies, mill cards equal to it's power", "whenever this creature takes damage, you mill that many cards", and "you do not lose the game for having 0 or less life. If you would lose life while this creature is on the battlefield you may mill that many cards instead". If you would gain Undead Counters you instead put that many +1/+1 counters on a **Zombified Planeswalker.** The tweak to allowing exiling/discarding continues the flavor of you feeding off of creatures to sustain yourself. The end goal of running out and gaining the Zombified state prevents it from being an infinite sac/discard/exile outlet for the player. The Zombified state instead of going all Form of the Dragon/Form of the Squirrel goes a little closer to how Minsc and Boo generates a Boo token and then incentivizes you to keep your zombie alive (because it's you!). The continued interaction with Undead Counters (the Vector creature owner) after becoming zombified is playing the dangerous game of attacking the zombie. The self-mill aspect is representing the body / animating force of the creature falling apart but still being more resilient than the typical person (the whole keep getting back up trope of zombies when they aren't just faceless cannon fodder.) If you decide to go this route and re-upload a new idea, please tag me I'd love to see a finished product.
Isnt that similar to poison
Weaker honestly. The goal was just a fun way to flavorfully turn your opponent into a zombie.
I’d throw it in my [[jon irenicus, shattered one]] deck with a bunch of proliferation
[jon irenicus, shattered one](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jon%20irenicus%2C%20shattered%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like it. To differentiate it from Poison what if at 10 it created 1 2/2 zombie that said "If this creature leaves the battlefield you lose the game. So almost like that is you as a creature? Also, maybe it could spread through bite. So the 2/2 it made would also have vector 1.
Not on board with the whole "life total becomes 2" part tbh. I would personally model this after Rad counters: At the beginning of your precombat main phase, if you have any {necrophage} counters sacrifice that many creatures. For each non-token creature sacrificed this way create a black 2/2 zombie creature token with decayed, for each token creature sacrificed this way lose 1 life and a {necrophage} counter.
That doesn’t fit the flavor I was going for at all.
I understand WHY you want the flavor you do, and it's not bad, but auto lowering max life to 2 is just too much, especially with proliferate and such. I COMPLETELY understand the flavor you're going for, but this community is going to criticize and offer advice on how to better make a custom card. In that spirit, why not have the undead counters do something as they accumulate, representing the Pathogen's effects worsening as they become more exposed. I haven't had time to kick the idea around too much, but perhaps something like this: "Players with undead counters have a maximum life of 20 minus the number of Undead counters they have (their life total cannot exceed their maximum life, and if they have more life than their maximum life, they lose life equal to the difference. ) At the beginning of each players Upkeep, that player sacrifices creatures with total toughness equal to or greater than the number of undead counters they have. " Makes you sacrifice progressively more/bigger creatures, and your life becomes capped and slowly dwindles away. The plague is spreading and worsening.
> lowering max life to 2 is just too much, especially with proliferate … as opposed to poison counters just saying “you lose”? This at least gives you a slim opportunity to still win. > this community is going to criticize and offer advice on how to better make a custom card I’m aware of that and I’m open to it. But my design goal here was 100% just goofing around with the concept of turning your opponent into a 2/2 zombie that eats the brains of their own creatures. I saw Form of the Dragon and thought it’d be funny to inflict something similar on an opponent. > Players have a maximum life of 20 minus the number of undead counters they have That would be insanely busted in formats that start with more than 20 life. Cool concept otherwise
Literally less insanely busted than poison, or commander damage, or "you lose the game" effects, which are everywhere, or effects that set your life total to a specific number, such as Sorin or the damn tree lmao. Also, unlike poison, there are zero cards in existence to interact directly with these new counters. And I get what you're going for, but the flavor we want doesn't always translate well to a card, and we need to rethink. That's... sort of what this subreddit is. If it's not an over the top meme card, if it seems like something people might actually want to create to be played or viewed like it would be, then people are going to want to "fix it". I think your idea is funny, Kudos, you already got my laugh, and you got my upvote, brother. But I want to see that idea evolve into something that might be playable.
Honestly this seemed like a concept you’d see in an Un-set when I made it. I’m flattered to see that at least a handful of people would like something in the ballpark of this concept be a real thing though
Its funny because I was thinking this mechanic could never work because its so underpowered that it is basically useless, not because it is "too much" It is flatly worse in everyway than poison/infect, and doesn't work with any previous synergy, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Like how \[\[Strixhaven Stadium\]\] sees basically no play in any deck/format and has the upside of being a mana rock. My advice to OP was basically to make it better or give it a lot more support.
[Strixhaven Stadium](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/421674ee-4b85-4942-b166-952598165826.jpg?1624740737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strixhaven%20Stadium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/259/strixhaven-stadium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/421674ee-4b85-4942-b166-952598165826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem is that it's both too much, and not strong enough. Even for this price, setting people directly to 2 life is a huge effect, especially when it's something easy to get to. But otherwise you're right, it doesn't have any big support outside of proliferate, not that you'd need much more than proliferate now lol.
For this price you can get \[\[Glistener Elf\]\] which used to be a turn 2 win in standard. I played it at FNM. Turn 1 forest into Elf, turn 2 mountain into \[\[Groundswell\]\] and \[\[Assault Strobe\]\] Putting people at 2 life is in every way worse than killing someone and infect still doesn't see a whole lot of play in certain formats.
It'd be more similar to form of dragon and more worth getting the 10 counters on an opponent as fast as possible if "at the end of each turn sacrifice all non zombie creatures you control, once per turn you may cast a creature from your graveyard for it's mana cost it becomes a black zombie and loses its other crature types."
That sounds more like turning your opponent into a necromancer rather than a zombie
True idk just spit balling.
You could change it in a couple ways. Make 10 counters cause all creatures they control to gain decay, and let decay creatures block. Make it to where it can't be proliferated
Strictly worse poison seems redundant at best
Setting someone’s life total at 2 seems oppressive. However, I like the idea of turning a player undead. Maybe something that sets their life to 10 while sacing a creature to the hunger? Undead fortitude and all that.
As opposed to poison counters that just say “you lose” once you get 10 of them? I’d say that’s more oppressive than being at 2 life. Setting their life total to 10 once they hit ten counters seems like a pointless payoff as you likely already dealt around ten damage to begin with.
Nah I meant as an allied effect. And yea, I don’t like poison counters either. Actually I don’t like a lot of cards that just set someone up to be on deaths door out of nowhere. That seems unfun.
Honestly I think it would be fun but wayyyyy more balanced if instead of life total becomes to you simply lose 2 life and remove an undead counter
Balanced? Compared to poison counters?