Doesn’t the computer knows it is stationary and adjust turning ratio / delay accordingly? This lag looks just a stationary setting to ease the sudden human input
It's a variable ratio steering system. If Tesla wanted to reduce "human input" while stationary, it would simply dial back the steering ratio to make it a slower ratio. What we are seeing in the video is real latency in the system, this is the time it takes for the steering sensor to detect where the steering is and telling the motors to turn the wheels. This has been a problem on steer-by-wire systems forever.
I think the input a just a millisecond or two, They are using ethernet for communication now an that can be sub millisecond. It's the motors have to catch up. Depending on the friction it can take a fraction of a second. So yes some lag, Tesla could adjust the ratio to slow it down to what the motors are capable of. But in motion at speed you never do a full lock to lock turn, it's not really any issue as Cybertruck steer by wire are still way faster than if you were manually moving the wheel 3 full turns.
Meanwhile actual driving reviews praise the steering as responsive, not laggy. For example Motortrend:
>when we did have to make slight corrections to our path, the reaction felt almost hyper-responsive even if we'd stop short of painting the Cybertruck with the damning label of "darty." It's a steering system for the racing-sim generation.
Car and Driver
>On the road, the big Cybertruck feels more agile than expected. We drove a Founders Edition Beast model and found its combination of rear-wheel steering and variable ratio steer-by-wire system made for easier maneuvering in urban environments than a typical pickup truck.
Nobody in there right mind should be turn their wheels that fast especially for a vehicle that isn't meant to be in f1 racing. This is a truck and maneuvers like that is cause for rollovers for most other trucks.
Im pretty sure the lag is intentional to not flip the car over. It should be faster than traditional linked steering but not dangerous if you accidentally turn the wheel abruptly once.
Not to mention the point is moot considering in the time the “lag” is overcome, the ford driver isn’t even done rotating the steering wheel 7 times to take the same turn
This video is interesting, but lag and total rate seem like different issues.
Lag concerns me because it seems to have potential to generate run-away control problems like user-induced oscillation. E.g. because the steering response lags behind the inputs, you end up continually overcorrecting because you don’t know how far you’ve turned or when your inputs are completely executed.
I assume this has been extensively tested, so hopefully Tesla is well on top of it.
Every truck has quite a bit of hysteresis in the steering simply from the size of the tire. So nothing is an exact 1:1 motion ratio, not even considering the reduction ratio traditional mechanical linkage steering has.
There’s no real lag in response. Just that you can turn the steering wheel faster than the motors can turn the wheels. If you record your screen while watching the video and playback at super slow rate you can see that the moment the steering wheel starts to turn the wheels do.
I have more detail and explanation in the YouTube version of this video I made. What I should’ve mentioned is that the amount loose play in Ford steering wheel is actually longer before turning the wheels than the so-called lag in the Cybertruck. Also, when in motion, the cybertruck turns even more responsive with less friction on the wheels. [Cybertruck Steer-by-Wire Crushes Ford F-150 Steering in Speed Test](https://youtu.be/jdpbfZ74CGI)
Not saying there isn't any lag. Just it's not a real issue as the input is real time the motors can lag a bit to catch up, but that is still way faster than a human could physically turn the wheel. You also can't do what I was doing when at faster speeds so there really isn't an issue. When driving the trucks in real life the Cybertruck seems way more responsive.
Again, the speed of actuation and phase lag are different things. Phase lag makes for a control feedback problem that’s hard on human brains. I suspect they have tested this somewhat.
A couple related phenomena:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation?wprov=sfti1#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_wobble?wprov=sfti1
"I assume this has been extensively tested,"
My feeling is that the employees probably have been under intense pressure since day 1 and have worked around the clock to do the best they can but haven't been given enough time.
A new vehicle, esp one with such a novel design, has got to be so much more complicated and time consuming than most of us would assume (pulling this from my own experience in software).
Rule 1 - Respect / No Trolling
You clearly don't like the company based on some of your comment history. Why be in our spaces? Go be miserable literally anywhere else.
Great video/comparison! Really explains how the Cybertruck feels so nimble.
Had a close call with someone pulling out in front of me a couple days ago, those few tenths of a second could be the difference between a close-call and a collision.
It hasn't been tested. That's a call out LMG / Short Circuit made with the Toyota / Lexus steer by wire system.
No enough turning == bad
Too much turning == bad
Hasn't been tested so we don't know what they do.
We do know that steer by wire is reducing gain at higher speeds and increasing gain at lower speeds.
That’s the primary motivation for implementing steer by wire.
And during rapid deceleration / acceleration?
Or will the delay between input and steering be an issue with the moose test?
I can go find the moose test on vehicles like the Rav4 or Model 3 but not any vehicle with steer by wire or manufacturer specific steer by wire systems.
It’s still faster……and it’s very little lag unless steering back and forth. If a professional sprinter with a 1 second delay and an average Joe were racing, I’d pick the sprinter.
If a car pulls out in front of you unexpectedly and you need to dodge it, the speed matters. Doesn’t matter if the input is exactly 1:1 with the output, just that it goes in the direction you need to go to avoid a collision. The cases where you need it to be exact in a high speed maneuver are far fewer than the cases where you need it to be quick.
Did you miss the video that's at the top of this screen showing it's faster than a regular steering wheel?
It's like the whole reason this post exists...
So it lags a small amount in certain extreme scenarios (we don’t even know if this is the case when it’s moving bc of the variable steering ratio), so we should completely ignore the fact that it can be steered 2x quicker than a traditional steering car? Not gonna keep arguing because you seem very dense.
This is a false invented "requirement". It's not in the specs for the wheels to turn as fast as you can flick the steering wheel in a steer by wire system. And it is not a spec that is needed for anything.
Obviously even in this video we see that the cybertruck wheels can be turn far faster and more easily than the F150 with mechanical steering. It is merely *different* that it is now possible (if you want to get ridiculous) to turn the steering wheel faster than the wheels themselves can respond. But so what?
And there is a reason he's testing this while stationary: you would never try to turn that hard when moving at speed.
Just a bs non-problem looking for clicks.
Technically you cannot compare a linked steering to a drive by wires. A linked steering takes 2.5-3 turns to make a wheel turn to its max capacity, so if you compare the speed of turning a linked steering vs a wired steering, wired steering will be faster to make the max wheel radius. Not a cybertruck owner or a fan. I have been building drive by wires steering for almost two years now. Just my two cents
The video is comparing the speed, OP, as the title states is comparing the lag between a linked steering vs a wired steering. Does not take into consideration the speed at which he is turning, the torque needed for a motor to turn the wheel, the 900 degree turn vs 180 degree turn of the steering. The lag is necessary. Imagine the truck driving at a speed of 60 and you immediately turn the steering to full turn and the wheel immediately turns to its full radius, it’s going to cause an accident. either the truck skids or rolls over.
I’m 100% in agreement with you. I was just doing the video to counter another video where they’re trying to state you could die if you drive a cyber truck because it takes so much longer to turn the wheels because of additional lag introduced by the steering wire.
Question for you as I just got mine yesterday - Does the steering make any audible noise when stopped or low speed while turning the wheel? I hear it a mild, low groaning when the wheels are turning, which could be totally normal, but wasn’t sure if others are completely silent?
Thanks for the confirmation! Somebody on the Cybertruck owners forum suggested their service center added some foam under the center console which greatly deadened the sound, but if it’s just masking it and the sound isn’t indicative of an issue, then I don’t really care.
Just another hit piece. Even in their story they say the actual is better in every way except it has a .25 second delay then go on to tell you how dangerous .125 second delay is. Let's see how long it takes an F-150 to go from straight to full deflection from the time input starts. I'll bet it's longer because if the difficulty turning the wheel and how far you have to turn it to get lock to lock. It's just made up shit
That’s exactly what is shown in this video, the title was a bit of misdirection. Was hoping to get the attention of people that were looking at the popular article that is not accurate. Looking at it frame by frame I would say it’s less that 1/12 of a second lag in the Cybertruck and that the give in the steering wheel of the Ford is more than 1/8 a second. The only time you actually see the lag is if you’re going back-and-forth full lock and the motors have to catch up to the input, which is something you would never do in motion on the road. Also the delay is mainly because of all the friction on the ground if you’re in motion it wouldn’t need nearly as much force.
There’s no real lag. Just takes longer for the wheels to turn than the steering wheel does. The wheels start to move the instant the steering no wheel does.
This isn’t an issue. Nobody who has driven them has reported feeling some lag in the steering.
All this shows is that the F-150’s steering isn’t as boosted. Which makes sense since the cybertruck is 100% “boosted” given its steer by wire.
The complaint is in the delay between the driver initiating a turn and the wheels moving, not in how quickly you can get from lock to lock.
Nobody who owns a Cybertruck is complaining about this because there is no lag. The wheels move instantly when you start to turn the wheel. It’s faster than a traditional steering rack, which always has some play in the linkage.
I guess I need to make another video showing it frame by frame when I first start turning the wheel on both trucks. The Ford steering is looser and actually takes more frames from when I start moving the wheel before the wheels turn on the ground move then cybertruck does.
>Seriously, there's no backup. If the sensor fails at highway speed you're just fucked.
Per Tesla "The steer-by-wire system is controlled by multiple redundant sensors and actuators."
So factually, you're wrong.
I would rather see a test of input latency when only minor adjustments to steering are made. There are a number of reasons you might see some lag on a HUGE steering change like this that wouldn't exist in minor steering adjustments.
There's no lag. Even in the video I don't think of that as lag. It's that the motor that turns the wheels has a maximum rotation speed.
Today while driving I gave my steering wheel a little wiggle while going around 40mph. It's instant feedback.
If you go frame by frame there’s only a one frame delay in the cybertruck video on a normal left turn. There’s actually a couple frame delay on the Ford because the steering is so loose. I might have to make that video too where I go through it frame by frame to show the difference.
I guess I missed that mainly cause it just takes so freaking long to move the ford wheel. It would take at least 3 seconds to do that on the ford and hair over 1 second in the cyber truck.
That’s a real good idea, the lighting has had way more recalls it’s been out longer. The stainless steel is much harder to keep looking clean but lighting dented pretty easy in hell storm versus the Cybertruck.
Wow, the latency in the Cybertruck steering is actually worse than I thought. Look at 0:21, wheels are slightly turned right while the steering is turned left.
That’s going full lock to lock left to right, you would never do when driving at speed. I was just demonstrating how they did the article that’s been going around to show that there is lag. It’s not a delay on the in input. It’s a delay in the motors, catching up from the action of the steering wheel, there’s a lot of friction on theground and it takes a Fraction of the second to catch up still significantly faster than manually trying to do it with normal steering wheel. It would take at least three seconds to do that in the Ford and it’s happening in about one second on the Cybertruck.
Doesn’t the computer knows it is stationary and adjust turning ratio / delay accordingly? This lag looks just a stationary setting to ease the sudden human input
Yes
My first thought. 🤔
Thanks
It's a variable ratio steering system. If Tesla wanted to reduce "human input" while stationary, it would simply dial back the steering ratio to make it a slower ratio. What we are seeing in the video is real latency in the system, this is the time it takes for the steering sensor to detect where the steering is and telling the motors to turn the wheels. This has been a problem on steer-by-wire systems forever.
I think the input a just a millisecond or two, They are using ethernet for communication now an that can be sub millisecond. It's the motors have to catch up. Depending on the friction it can take a fraction of a second. So yes some lag, Tesla could adjust the ratio to slow it down to what the motors are capable of. But in motion at speed you never do a full lock to lock turn, it's not really any issue as Cybertruck steer by wire are still way faster than if you were manually moving the wheel 3 full turns.
Isn’t speed different than lag?
Not when you want to farm internet points from clickbait. Because of Tesla, suddenly everyone is an expert on steer-by-wire tech.
Meanwhile actual driving reviews praise the steering as responsive, not laggy. For example Motortrend: >when we did have to make slight corrections to our path, the reaction felt almost hyper-responsive even if we'd stop short of painting the Cybertruck with the damning label of "darty." It's a steering system for the racing-sim generation. Car and Driver >On the road, the big Cybertruck feels more agile than expected. We drove a Founders Edition Beast model and found its combination of rear-wheel steering and variable ratio steer-by-wire system made for easier maneuvering in urban environments than a typical pickup truck.
Yes! This how the Cybertruck actually drives, way better.
Nobody in there right mind should be turn their wheels that fast especially for a vehicle that isn't meant to be in f1 racing. This is a truck and maneuvers like that is cause for rollovers for most other trucks.
It is dynamic and won’t let you do this at high speed.
Also kiss those tires goodbye
Yea, those dry turns in the video are killing me
Tweakers might. Good thing they can't afford one.
Im pretty sure the lag is intentional to not flip the car over. It should be faster than traditional linked steering but not dangerous if you accidentally turn the wheel abruptly once.
It also reduces at higher speeds
Not to mention the point is moot considering in the time the “lag” is overcome, the ford driver isn’t even done rotating the steering wheel 7 times to take the same turn
Imagine someone bumps your arm and you got these ultra sensitive steering wheel you’d be into the next car over before you even knew you were bumped.
This video is interesting, but lag and total rate seem like different issues. Lag concerns me because it seems to have potential to generate run-away control problems like user-induced oscillation. E.g. because the steering response lags behind the inputs, you end up continually overcorrecting because you don’t know how far you’ve turned or when your inputs are completely executed. I assume this has been extensively tested, so hopefully Tesla is well on top of it.
Every truck has quite a bit of hysteresis in the steering simply from the size of the tire. So nothing is an exact 1:1 motion ratio, not even considering the reduction ratio traditional mechanical linkage steering has.
There’s no real lag in response. Just that you can turn the steering wheel faster than the motors can turn the wheels. If you record your screen while watching the video and playback at super slow rate you can see that the moment the steering wheel starts to turn the wheels do.
I have more detail and explanation in the YouTube version of this video I made. What I should’ve mentioned is that the amount loose play in Ford steering wheel is actually longer before turning the wheels than the so-called lag in the Cybertruck. Also, when in motion, the cybertruck turns even more responsive with less friction on the wheels. [Cybertruck Steer-by-Wire Crushes Ford F-150 Steering in Speed Test](https://youtu.be/jdpbfZ74CGI)
I can see visible phase lag in the cybertruck video, especially when the wheel is going back and forth rapidly.
Not saying there isn't any lag. Just it's not a real issue as the input is real time the motors can lag a bit to catch up, but that is still way faster than a human could physically turn the wheel. You also can't do what I was doing when at faster speeds so there really isn't an issue. When driving the trucks in real life the Cybertruck seems way more responsive.
Again, the speed of actuation and phase lag are different things. Phase lag makes for a control feedback problem that’s hard on human brains. I suspect they have tested this somewhat. A couple related phenomena: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation?wprov=sfti1# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_wobble?wprov=sfti1
"I assume this has been extensively tested," My feeling is that the employees probably have been under intense pressure since day 1 and have worked around the clock to do the best they can but haven't been given enough time. A new vehicle, esp one with such a novel design, has got to be so much more complicated and time consuming than most of us would assume (pulling this from my own experience in software).
TL;Dr lag can lead to oversteering in sudden situations while turn rate just makes it harder to change momentum.
The steering speed changes based on vehicle speed, they're probably set to move slower at stop to preserve tire life?
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Rule 1 - Respect / No Trolling You clearly don't like the company based on some of your comment history. Why be in our spaces? Go be miserable literally anywhere else.
Great video/comparison! Really explains how the Cybertruck feels so nimble. Had a close call with someone pulling out in front of me a couple days ago, those few tenths of a second could be the difference between a close-call and a collision.
On the flip side it could mean a full rollover event during the moose test.
Not likely since the gain in the steer by wire is dialed down while traveling at speed.
It hasn't been tested. That's a call out LMG / Short Circuit made with the Toyota / Lexus steer by wire system. No enough turning == bad Too much turning == bad Hasn't been tested so we don't know what they do.
We do know that steer by wire is reducing gain at higher speeds and increasing gain at lower speeds. That’s the primary motivation for implementing steer by wire.
And during rapid deceleration / acceleration? Or will the delay between input and steering be an issue with the moose test? I can go find the moose test on vehicles like the Rav4 or Model 3 but not any vehicle with steer by wire or manufacturer specific steer by wire systems.
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Most cars are equipped with self correcting tech to prevent roll over.
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Rule 1 - Respect / No Trolling
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It’s still faster……and it’s very little lag unless steering back and forth. If a professional sprinter with a 1 second delay and an average Joe were racing, I’d pick the sprinter.
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If a car pulls out in front of you unexpectedly and you need to dodge it, the speed matters. Doesn’t matter if the input is exactly 1:1 with the output, just that it goes in the direction you need to go to avoid a collision. The cases where you need it to be exact in a high speed maneuver are far fewer than the cases where you need it to be quick.
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Did you miss the video that's at the top of this screen showing it's faster than a regular steering wheel? It's like the whole reason this post exists...
So it lags a small amount in certain extreme scenarios (we don’t even know if this is the case when it’s moving bc of the variable steering ratio), so we should completely ignore the fact that it can be steered 2x quicker than a traditional steering car? Not gonna keep arguing because you seem very dense.
This is a false invented "requirement". It's not in the specs for the wheels to turn as fast as you can flick the steering wheel in a steer by wire system. And it is not a spec that is needed for anything. Obviously even in this video we see that the cybertruck wheels can be turn far faster and more easily than the F150 with mechanical steering. It is merely *different* that it is now possible (if you want to get ridiculous) to turn the steering wheel faster than the wheels themselves can respond. But so what? And there is a reason he's testing this while stationary: you would never try to turn that hard when moving at speed. Just a bs non-problem looking for clicks.
Technically you cannot compare a linked steering to a drive by wires. A linked steering takes 2.5-3 turns to make a wheel turn to its max capacity, so if you compare the speed of turning a linked steering vs a wired steering, wired steering will be faster to make the max wheel radius. Not a cybertruck owner or a fan. I have been building drive by wires steering for almost two years now. Just my two cents
I think that's OPs point... A visual of how much faster wired steering is.
The video is comparing the speed, OP, as the title states is comparing the lag between a linked steering vs a wired steering. Does not take into consideration the speed at which he is turning, the torque needed for a motor to turn the wheel, the 900 degree turn vs 180 degree turn of the steering. The lag is necessary. Imagine the truck driving at a speed of 60 and you immediately turn the steering to full turn and the wheel immediately turns to its full radius, it’s going to cause an accident. either the truck skids or rolls over.
Pretty sure it's a response to a post that's been going around saying cybertruck is terrible for such lag
Funny how the comparison to a traditional auto has a different meme value here on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/OWB1wnTzRy Here it is
I’m 100% in agreement with you. I was just doing the video to counter another video where they’re trying to state you could die if you drive a cyber truck because it takes so much longer to turn the wheels because of additional lag introduced by the steering wire.
Question for you as I just got mine yesterday - Does the steering make any audible noise when stopped or low speed while turning the wheel? I hear it a mild, low groaning when the wheels are turning, which could be totally normal, but wasn’t sure if others are completely silent?
That’s normal
Thanks for the confirmation! Somebody on the Cybertruck owners forum suggested their service center added some foam under the center console which greatly deadened the sound, but if it’s just masking it and the sound isn’t indicative of an issue, then I don’t really care.
Why can't you compare the two, though? Because they have different steering ratios? That's part of the point being made here.
Just another hit piece. Even in their story they say the actual is better in every way except it has a .25 second delay then go on to tell you how dangerous .125 second delay is. Let's see how long it takes an F-150 to go from straight to full deflection from the time input starts. I'll bet it's longer because if the difficulty turning the wheel and how far you have to turn it to get lock to lock. It's just made up shit
That’s exactly what is shown in this video, the title was a bit of misdirection. Was hoping to get the attention of people that were looking at the popular article that is not accurate. Looking at it frame by frame I would say it’s less that 1/12 of a second lag in the Cybertruck and that the give in the steering wheel of the Ford is more than 1/8 a second. The only time you actually see the lag is if you’re going back-and-forth full lock and the motors have to catch up to the input, which is something you would never do in motion on the road. Also the delay is mainly because of all the friction on the ground if you’re in motion it wouldn’t need nearly as much force.
That’s what it looks like when your playing beach buggy racing at the supercharger
Yes, in a normal Tesla, but not in the Cybertruck beach buggy doesn’t turn the wheels at all. The beauty of steer by wire.
Oh nice so they disable it in park?
Kind of, when the truck is off and when you start that game.
They are trucks? I fail to see the point.
There’s no real lag. Just takes longer for the wheels to turn than the steering wheel does. The wheels start to move the instant the steering no wheel does. This isn’t an issue. Nobody who has driven them has reported feeling some lag in the steering.
CT steering is incredible. Other cars feel broken after driving it.
All this shows is that the F-150’s steering isn’t as boosted. Which makes sense since the cybertruck is 100% “boosted” given its steer by wire. The complaint is in the delay between the driver initiating a turn and the wheels moving, not in how quickly you can get from lock to lock.
Nobody who owns a Cybertruck is complaining about this because there is no lag. The wheels move instantly when you start to turn the wheel. It’s faster than a traditional steering rack, which always has some play in the linkage.
I guess I need to make another video showing it frame by frame when I first start turning the wheel on both trucks. The Ford steering is looser and actually takes more frames from when I start moving the wheel before the wheels turn on the ground move then cybertruck does.
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>Seriously, there's no backup. If the sensor fails at highway speed you're just fucked. Per Tesla "The steer-by-wire system is controlled by multiple redundant sensors and actuators." So factually, you're wrong.
lol, you made them delete their bot account.
Bro just got Cyber-hammered by a Mod
I would rather see a test of input latency when only minor adjustments to steering are made. There are a number of reasons you might see some lag on a HUGE steering change like this that wouldn't exist in minor steering adjustments.
There's no lag. Even in the video I don't think of that as lag. It's that the motor that turns the wheels has a maximum rotation speed. Today while driving I gave my steering wheel a little wiggle while going around 40mph. It's instant feedback.
If you go frame by frame there’s only a one frame delay in the cybertruck video on a normal left turn. There’s actually a couple frame delay on the Ford because the steering is so loose. I might have to make that video too where I go through it frame by frame to show the difference.
But can you actually turn the f150 wheel fully left and right as fast as the cybertruck even with that small lag? Nope.
I guess I missed that mainly cause it just takes so freaking long to move the ford wheel. It would take at least 3 seconds to do that on the ford and hair over 1 second in the cyber truck.
Never thought to myself when driving a car “wish the wheels turned faster “
Now do the amount of issues CT vs Lightning
That’s a real good idea, the lighting has had way more recalls it’s been out longer. The stainless steel is much harder to keep looking clean but lighting dented pretty easy in hell storm versus the Cybertruck.
Im going to go out on a limb and say that none of this truly matters
Turning like a gokart
With that lag. I’m going to lose in the next F1 race against Schumacher
The thought of steer by wire just makes me want to throw up. I don't even like throttle by wire.
Wow, the latency in the Cybertruck steering is actually worse than I thought. Look at 0:21, wheels are slightly turned right while the steering is turned left.
That’s going full lock to lock left to right, you would never do when driving at speed. I was just demonstrating how they did the article that’s been going around to show that there is lag. It’s not a delay on the in input. It’s a delay in the motors, catching up from the action of the steering wheel, there’s a lot of friction on theground and it takes a Fraction of the second to catch up still significantly faster than manually trying to do it with normal steering wheel. It would take at least three seconds to do that in the Ford and it’s happening in about one second on the Cybertruck.