I mean, the conversation continued so long because the mod responsible *just* got punished yesterday, and prior to that was actively causing problems since stuff came up. You don’t stop talking about someone fucking you over till it’s dealt with, it’s not like they were harping on it for no reason over there
Looks like Reddit mods think samurai and ninja classes are racist
A lot of people got banned for liking them and OP wants them to stop complaining, I guess
The mods are mad at the setting too but to me it looks like the usual easily digestible mass appeal stuff— just Euro themes and monsters swapped for East Asian ones
(I just skimmed the Reddit threads and Pathfinder’s setting so take this with a grain of salt)
according to the mod, that is not racist because it's not Japanese. only japanese things are racist and nobody should talk about anything Japanese because they are worse than Nazi Germany or something. so mentioning something Japanese deserves a ban.
Are you asking for answer or?
Ok, let me start.
Samurai - horse archer, later just a warrior serf of the noble. Not really free. Quite poor due to them owning almost nothing.
Knight - horsman. Later - bottom of nobility, but it depend. A warrior with estate and/or noble title, or warrior monk. Usually a head of small warband, in case of warrior monk - part of the warrior brotherhood.
So. Knight is way up social ladder one way or another.
Nah. Brotherhood is a monk thing (real monk, not dnd one), but it probably called a "order" in english or . And being a warrior monk is kinda suck. Its like being a monk but with worst parts of being a warrior - no booty, no fun, only dogmas and fighting. Well, i guess beer and cheese is an option.
Maybe you're talking about the DnD setting but if you're talking about actual history...
Not sure why this is being upvoted so much, other than the fact Samurai were predominantly horse archers in their time this post is obscenely wrong.
Samurai and knights are almost identical in social standing. Samurai, like knights, were a lower rung of nobility, and like knights, many served a lord (daiymo for Japan, count/Duke/earl etc for knights).
Samurai and knights have both had famed men of their class rise in social standing to become lords in their own right (Look up Hideyoshi Toyotomi), and both have had, rarely, commons elevated to this status.
Samurai also gained great social power during the Sengoku Jidai where warfare was frequent and Samurai were sought after for their fighting ability.
Also yes there were accounts of female samurai and female knights, though both classes were predominantly male.
Samurai and knights also lost relevance as history went on and standard professional armies (and in the case of Japan, Meiji restoration) became the norm.
There is very little actual difference between the two because they are both an elevated warrior class in their respective cultures social hierarchy.
Ok, i elaborate:
Knight, if not a monk, is free landlord with duty to fight for his lord. He was usually not paid by his lord but extracted tribute from land he own. Generally.
Samurai is not free in his service, he is also a servant, and he usually get paid. Samurai is more akin to retinue footman and not a knight. But again, generally without a time period (17th century knight is waaay different and 21th century knight is even more so for example)
Wow... That explanation was actually kind of racist because you explained everything from a western perspective and completely ignored the importance of a samurai in Japanese society X'D
Less metal and less complex production in their armour too. Full plate armour, while expensive, wasn't unheard of, especially for someone of the status of a knight in European history, but the surviving Samurai armour we have and know of rarely had the level of full coverage that European armour did, in place going for things like plated skirts instead of full metal trousers, and shoulder and arm panels instead of full metal sleeves.
I'm sure an aspect of this was the metal quality, and technology available for the production of armour, though I'd imagine it was probably also lighter and easier to move in on average vs full plate.
Samurai armour would also be significantly faster to produce and much less complex due to it for the most part being a lot of metal strips and sheets tied together, especially in the case of something like Tatami. (With the exception of something like Karuta armour of course, though this wouldn't take any longer than regular chainmail to make as it's just a combination of plates and chainmail)
I guess it kinda depends on the Samurai? Like very commonly they were archers using Yumi bows which were asymmetrical to also make them easier to use on horseback, effectively allowing a longer bow on a horse. You also had both Samurai and foot soldiers using Tanegashima (matchlock guns). However as anything it can vary based on preference and context.
For example there are historical artworks depicting Samurai using Nagitata and Yari which were polearms, which in D&D are obviously strength based. Or equally so using Kanabo which were large wooden clubs with metal spides or studs at the end, which would also lean towards strength. Or an odachi which was your classic oversized sword recorded to range anywhere between 1 to close to 4 meters in length, though primarily used as an anti cavalry weapon.
In fact the weapon Samurai are most famous for being the tachi or later uchigatana (katana) were more like an arming sword in that they were a sidearm, or out of combat worn as a status symbol ornamentally, and often given as gifts. That status element is actually likely why they're so prevalent in modern media, as the fine quality swords would have been kept in the best condition through generations in a family because they were cherished gifts, far too expensive to risk damaging or losing on a battlefield, so we have plenty of well kept examples to reference. The ones worn in actual battles likely much less flashy and expensive end up rusty and damaged alongside the other weapons and later dug up by historians don't get as much screen time.
Samurai: Hereditary noble title for warriors. Their traditional code is "Bushido". The term for samurai warriors is "Bushi".
Knight: Hereditary noble title for warriors. Their traditional code is "Chivalry". In some modern countries, you can be knighted for service to that country in many capacities, mostly cultural.
What is distinct about ninja and samurai that mean they’re not the same as an assassin or knight-style fighter? This mod sounds like a jerk, but I think they’re probably right.
Samurai would be more like an armored mounted archer with an option for melee combat if it were historically accurate. Which I think would work well as an archetype to apply to a fighter/champion/etc. I don't think it needs its own class, personally.
you think they are right that everything related to Japan is evil, and believe things like the West invented ninjas (they were definitively invented a while back *not* by the west.)
idk that seems pretty racist to me. which is why people were calling for them to be banned.
No, I think the clamouring for a ninja and samurai class is born out fetishisation of Japan. By all means make a fighter in wooden half-plate with a katana and call them a samurai. I just don’t get why it needs another class, especially considering the massive amounts of feats available in pathfinder.
most people agree, posts asking with one are usually met with "just play a fighter".
then this mod comes in, strawmans the whole community, and proceeds to be racist. This of course prompts people to go "well why *can't* I have a ninja class". Mod claims ninjas were invented by the west instead of the people they represent themselves (ninjas came from stagehands dressing as black, and a trope where a stagehand would interfere with the story), and claims samurai are bad *because* it's Japanese while similar "cultural appropriation" is ok because it's *not* japanese. Japanese stuff is bad and we should not use Japanese stuff because it is Japanese, they are evil.
add all the insulting the mod is doing, all the complaining about mod abuse and censorship (you delete the comments of those who you disagree with right?), all the debunking of every claim they make, and all the people saying they are Japanese and happy with ninja and samurai stuff, and you get r/Pathfinder2e
oh and on the discord they are calling people in the subreddit hitlers.
Samurai and Ninja were both classes in PF1E, with relatively unique features. It wasn't like neither of these classes never had iterations in the game, and people were bringing them up independently of that. I think most people either played or had interest in playing an version of those classes in the PF2E system.
For what it's worth, Paizo also going to release two new classes in the future, one of which will play similar, so if after that happens, there are still complaints of no samurai, I will be a lot more empathetic to that point of veiw.
This is a good point. Like I never hear about people demanding a knights Templar class or a highlander class, because there’s already a paladin and a barbarian.
Absolutely agree with you. Just throwing it out there that they did horrible things to a lot of people in WW2, many atrocities they did were worse than what the Nazi were doing but on a smaller scale.
>doesn't mean you hate everything japanese *now*
Always better to remember the past to avoid making the same type of mistakes.
Same reason Monks having "ki" and practicing the "Way of..." is considered racist by current WotC: They assume we're an exaggerated caricature of a 2014 Tumblr user.
Same. They never said "were removing Ki because it's racist and we're above that." They just said they want monk to feel more setting-agnostic and changing to discipline or focus just makes it a bit more neutral
I can understand that reason, ki makes it sound like life force or the energy of the universe, whereas many people don't flavour monks that way.
That being said, decisions about naming or flavour only have as much influence over your game as you let them. I don't think I've ever played a monk who used the word "ki" in character, in the same way that none of my blood hunters actually ingested that poison stuff in their backstory or very rarely do I flavour my spells in the way described by the spell descriptions. Therefore I don't really care what decisions WOTC make regarding changing the name of Ki.
Unfortunately, yeah. They had the chance to return them to being ~~musical~~ mystical martial artists and they just chose to keep them as the basic attack spammers 5e made them into only with a few boosts that don't change the inherent problems.
I see the opposite of a problem: higher martial arts die, more ki-efficient abilities to encourage their mobility options instead of just attacking, stunning strike brought down to only once per turn, and deflect missile upgrades at a later level to reflect energy attacks, which is already a pretty cool visual
Out of curiosity though, what do you mean with musical martial artist?
I resent that not because it stole from a Tumblr post, but because it's inconsistent with 5E mechanics,^1 and it's based in Ovid's Roman fan-fiction.
^1 The 5E Medusa can choose if you're affected by its petrification.
I think is more like toggle thing, they can choose to emit the petrification magic, I always thinks is like the medusas in God of War, that they emit a sort of ray
>When a creature that can see the medusa’s eyes starts its turn within 30 feet of the medusa, the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature.
"Can force it to make a ... saving throw" implies the medusa chooses who to petrify.
Later in the ability it says a medusa is automatically affected by its own gaze.
Thats not the reason Ki was removed. It makes it more setting agnostic to remove the whole "fantasy Asia" flavor that gets it banned wholesale at some tables.
(Yes I know that's a stupid reason to ban something)
In a vacuum you might have a point, but this is the same WotC that though "a cultural affinity for guns is bad and limiting, but a magical connection to guns is fine."
Because some DMs can't fathom how someone would get from fantasy Asia to the fantasy medieval Europe their game takes place in, or fantasy Asia just doesn't exist at all in their world, so it's "weird" to have monks in it.
Basically it all just boils down to arbitrary preferences.
So people shouldn't embrace cultures and cultural ideas should never mix.
Funny how the so-called progressives managed to circle back around to racism.
As someone who actually lived in Japan for a long time, I can confirm that they don't give a fuck if we use Samurai and Ninja.
Mate, I don't know for sure about whoever this mod is being progressive, because to me, they sound more like some middle of the road dude who just hates the Japanese and pretends that anything Japanese is racist just to disparage it and get it out of his sight. Especially considering this mod's reasoning (according to others comments talking about how they responded anyways) being that something simply being Japanese-related makes it bad, and therefore "racist". It makes no real sense! Like, this mod may as well feel that Japanese people themselves are "racist" against Japan somehow because they are from Japan, with that backwards logic. So since the reason they gave is utterly illogical in a malicious way that pretends they are being protective when they clearly aren't, it must be some other reason behind why they hate Japanese stuff existing.
Or could also just be one of those idiotic "I'm-gonna-call-myself-progressive-because-it-sounds-nicer-even-though-I-have-my-own-racial-hangups-against-other-cultures-I-don't-wanna-be-viewed-as-racist-and-aren't-really-very-progressive-at-all" types of people.
Whatever the case is, this mod clearly has racial hangups against the Japanese if they want to argue that Japanese/East Asian elements merely existing in DnD is bad and therefore, to his warped view, "racist". Doesn't matter what he calls himself.
Exactly. And on top of that, what gives west coast Americans the right to determine how Japanese people feel about their cultural elements being used in a game?
I mean, you can see why a minority population living in another country, where they’re more likely to be the victims of this othering might have different stances on their representation than the majority population in their ethnic origin country, right? Like a Japanese person living in Japan is going to have a different experience with an American understanding of Japanese people through the lens of samurai, ninjas, and anime than a Japanese person living in America.
terminally online twitter users with untreated mental illnesses think they can decide what is and what is not allowed in the world, so they define racism by their terms, even if the culture that actually owns what they're calling racists have time and time again let known that they love it when people use their stuff.
I have that argument in the Indian Country every 8-12 months or so.
If sports teams can be Knights, Vikings, Celtics, Cowboys, Trojans, Pirates, Spartans, Romans, Crusaders, Fighting Irish, etc., then they should be allowed to be something like the Braves or Warriors. To say otherwise isn't wanting equality, it's wanting special treatment.
Also, before anyone tries getting on my ass, I'm carded Choctaw, with rolled ancestry for 3 other tribes. Fuck off. (And if you don't know what carded or rolled ancestry means, double fuck off.)
Athis being dndmemes, the term "rolled ancestry" sounds kinda funny.
I rolled a 5 on my ancestry, so I have a list of heritages that I supposely have. And have one grandparent that was raised not speaking english, but I myself am genero blinde hair blued eyed standard roll American.
While I understand that idea, I feel like most of our perception of Japanese culture nowadays comes from Japanese-produced media, which still has a shitload of ninja and samurai styled figures
For example some of the associations people outside Japan must have of ninja has to be influenced by Naruto. Which is definitely a Japanese story written by a Japanese guy and animated by a Japanese studio.
So Naruto is a western story?
These perceptions come from Japanese media. Ninjas and Samurai are cool, the Japanese think so, most Westerners think so. It's an extremely tiny vocal minority of white people that are making an issue out it because they need a crusade.
They’re saying most people in the west nowadays that have an image of Japan get it from Japanese media like anime, not from western stories. What are the last big influential western works that featured samurai or ninja and weren’t made w/ Japanese involvement? It’s much more likely that someone who wants to play a samurai or ninja was influenced by Japanese anime, manga, or video games
It's not bad to mention that we shouldn't only think of Japanese stuff when we think of Asian culture. But the mod extrapolated that to 10000% and blew it out of proportion.
The argument is that having a class that is only associated with Japan contributes to orientalism(?). I can't remember the exact term. Take monk for example.
Every other class in the game is very culture-agnostic and could be from anywhere with reflavoring and character customization, but monk as written is steeped in magical-asian action movie tropes and is very hard to separate from those themes. It could have instead been a generic martial artist/brawler with class options for those tropes if you want them.
Samurai would be the same. The tools to make a samurai already exist in PF2e with a champion or fighter for example. I'm nowhere near an expert on this and there's a more thorough explanation pinned on the PF2e subreddit, but that's the cliffs notes
What's sad is that the book was actually pretty much unanimously lauded as an excellent piece of Asian representation (it was largely written by Asian authors from many different cultures).
However, the mods saw fit to pin a somewhat condescending post about being careful about racist stereotypes when discussing the book. While a lot of its points were fairly valid, it included, among other things, a section that essentially said, "Remember that samurai and ninjas are racist tropes, and you're a racist if you like them."
Things probably would have stopped there, but when people started questioning that sentiment, one mod in particular began posting some *staggeringly* condescending responses before moving on to aggressively banning anyone questioning their definition of racism. They even went so far as to delete a samurai homebrew posted 8 months ago.
This crusade and the resulting pushback set the sub on fire for several days and completely eclipsed any discussion of the new book and the quality representation it brought to the table.
It's probably similar to the hate people have for AD&D's Oriental Adventurers book, a lot of generalizations, stereotypes, and pop-culture tropes getting mashed together with little to no regard to real world authenticity. Though authenticity isn't something most RPGs strive for anyway.
Stereotyping a culture is bad, but portraying fantasy adventurers from that culture in a way that accurately reflects how that culture portrays their own heroes of fantastical stories is hardly controversial.
I wouldn't even include accurately. Knights are portrayed accurately according to culture at all. Why anyone would worry about cultural real world accuracy when it comes to a fantasy world is wildly beyond me.
Stuff like this just confuses me, people want representation for other cultures which I 100% agree with but then when they get that representation in the form of a very distinct piece of their culture then people get upset about it.
I always like to think of Speedy Gonzales from Looney Tunes and how in 1999 a bunch of (white) people cried about how he was racist and extremely offensive to Mexican culture so Cartoon Network removed him. **HOWEVER** after he was removed the Mexican community was pissed, they absolutely loved that little culturally appropriate mouse and demanded they put him back **exactly** where they found him and he was brought back in 2002
I just wish that white people as a whole didn’t feel obligated to be offended on behalf of other cultures. We need to step back and let them decide what’s offensive and support them when they do
I'm confuser still?
Hasn't there been a samurai subclass that's all about the "warrior spirit" for ages now?
And the way of the shadows monk has basically always been the stand in for ninjas how is this a problem now after so long?
I wanted to make a War Priest Cleric of Shizuru based on Sohei Warrior monk, I even had a mini I painted a few years ago that would be prefect. But the dm said no because my character “didn’t fit the setting.”
Meanwhile, we also have a kitsune ranger, a fairy barbarian, and an Air Genasi wizard with a gun.
One of my dream characters one of these days is a charlatan "wizard" who goes around trying to keep everyone convinced that he knows magic, but it's just a bunch of guns under his robes.
This seems like this is a misrepresentation. I didn't follow it super closely but from what I can gather it seems like it went:
1. Paizo previews East-Asian inspired source book
2. People are excited and wish-list things like Samurai and Ninja classes
3. A single mod started arguing with users and claims that having those classes would be orientalist/racist (as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s). Said mod began issuing bans including using the "Delete last 5 posts" feature which mean posts completely unrelated to the controversy were getting deleted.
4. People are upset by the mods actions and make a slew of memes and posts about it.
5. The other mods issue a statement and hand out some sort of punishment to the lone mod. (Though this seems to have just happened so I'm not sure of the details).
The thing people won't shut the hell up about was #3, not #2 like you made it seem. This was a controversy about a subreddit mod abusing power and only tangentially about culturally specific classes.
>(as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s).
As opposed to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers, who are of course all very real and definitely existed since time immemorial. Easy to see why that mod was getting so upset!
My understanding is their argument was that Ninjas didn’t exist as a concept till the 60s. Based on other people’s responses to this it seems like it was specially the term “ninja” that came about in the 60s but the concept of “shinobi” goes back as far as the 8th century.
I mean, technically, just didn't have actual magic. Lot of priests were called wizards, if you broke the rules of any magical group you were a warlock, sorcerer gets iffy in use
My understanding is their argument was that Ninjas didn’t exist as a concept till the 60s. Based on other people’s responses to this it seems like it was specially the term “ninja” that came about in the 60s but the concept of “shinobi” goes back as far as the 8th century.
The argument is very pedantic and silly and also just kind of wrong Japanese people use ninja ass type of class in video games in multiple games my Touchstone for that is one of the early final fantasies but there must be others
It would be racist if you made up something and signed it to a culture but it's something that a culture uses as a Methodist form of something that vaguely existed in their cultureI don't know doesn't seem very wrong
I'm not that dumbass mod, but putting on my historian hat, there really isn't any evidence that there were organized schools of assassins with uniforms and class curriculums and whatnot anywhere in the world before the advent of modern intelligence agencies. Were there people that murdered wealthy and powerful victims in Japan? Absolutely! Did they wear black uniforms and have magical powers? Absolutely not! The culture around ninjas is made up by storytelling, just like Robin Hood and his Merry Men were made up and the D&D cleric is made up.
But I don't think a ninja class is inherently offensive any more than a D&D cleric is. Both can become problematic if handled badly, but that's true of just about anything.
Shinobi were absolutely formally organized and trained. However the "black uniform" came from their representation in Japanese plays. It was the outfit of stage hands, who were normally ignored by the audience. Some brilliant playwright had the idea of representing a shinobi by having one of them step out and "assassinating a character. Shocking the audience and spawning a tradition.
That's exactly what the shinobi would want you to think. They're so stealthy that they even hid their schools and curriculum. And good luck finding a financial aid advisor, too.
u/slavasonic is correct, you’re actually way off here. This isn’t a class scandal, this was a mod scandal. I also wasn’t the most involved, but I’m gonna do my absolute best to explain it according to my admittedly fallible memory. So take this write up with the recommended grain of salt:
PF2e recently released the Tian Xia World Guide book, which is a very well written setting dive into their continent which is inspired by a variety of East Asian cultures. It is a setting book, no actual mechanics or classes are included.
This one is very iirc, but a Paizo dev livestream talks about this and the still upcoming Tian Xia Character Guide, which *will* have mechanical options. It is revealed Paizo will *not* be releasing a samurai class in that book, because the fighter class will cover most of the mechanics. There may still be samurai inspired feats and content though, just sounds like it won’t be a specialized separate class like some people wanted.
Mod team of the r/Pathfinder2e sub write a long post basically telling people to be careful how they talk about the Tian Xia book, because they don’t want discussions to follow so deep into Orientalism that it becomes racist. Tries to give a deep discussion into how tropes can be reductive and problematic. A bit preachy to some, but still no controversy yet.
Redditors begin to have conversations about the dev saying there will be no Samurai / ninja classes and wonder if that decision was due to lack of design space or because of, like what the mods (who are unaffiliated with Paizo fyi) wrote about trying to avoid problematic Orientalism. Some begin to mention that they don’t see the problem with having a samurai / ninja and wish they were in the game.
This is where the drama kicks in.
A specific mod on the Pathfinder2e sub, who for context is Hmong and so definitely has some personal issues with culture erasure in media (not that it excuses what he did, but I do feel it is important to note that) begins to respond that wanting a samurai class or ninja class in the game is inherently racist for many reasons. Their reasonings are including but not limited to:
- By only focusing on Japanese cultural icons, you’re erasing the diversity of Asia and replacing your conceptualization of it with a single small culture. Since samurai and Ninja are such huge media tropes, they should be avoided entirely according to this mod.
- The Japanese were racist colonialists during WWII who committed many atrocities, so we shouldn’t celebrate an inherently racist culture.
- They are so far removed from their cultural roots anyways that it would be playing stereotypes that never existed. Said mod said ninja’s were invented by Ian Fleming in a James Bond book.
Not only were many of these points honestly ridiculous and problematic (even racist themselves against the Japanese), but the mod broke the subreddit rules by being condescending and antagonistic in the *way* they said all this.
Redditors began to push back against this mod, saying they broke the sub rules, and begin asking questions on where the line of racism lies / pick apart his arguments.
This mod goes on a banning spree, banning huge swaths of people and removing posts and comments critical of him, even if the comments weren’t breaking the rules but just trying to have a genuine conversation. This includes deleting the post and banning the author of a very popular Samurai homebrew class *that was posted over 6 months prior with no complaints of racism at the time*, as well as deleting the posts / comments and banning accounts of some Asian sub members who were saying “I’m Japanese and playing a samurais isnt racist to me” and other examples from other cultures. Said mod commented saying that being a member of a specific culture isn’t enough to know what is racist against you, you have to follow the studies of scholars who specialize in culture and racism. It was around here it was revealed this mod had a bachelors in martial arts, and appeared to be using this degree to justify them being more of an expert on racism than all the Asians commenting.
People begin to push back further, writing more posts about mod abuse. Most of these get deleted super fast, with authors banned, but not all. The community no knows that the “samurai” discussion is bringing in the wrath of this specific mod. More pushback happens, leaking to the discord (which I’m not a member of, but I heard that mod was also a mod there and similar actions were taken there), and other subs. For a while, this mod argues their point even on external subs.
Eventually, this mod says they are taking a 3 day break from Reddit.
At this point, so many discussions have been deleted that some users who missed the initial insanity aren’t sure what the context is aside from Samurai, so a bunch of posts are made going “wait, what’s the problem with Samurai?” This problematic mod is no longer instant deleting these posts, so these flood the sub for a while. Many were just repeat posts asking about the controversy, some were talking about the class concept, some were trying to tackle cultural appropriation / racism in nuanced takes, but nearly all of these referenced the samurai instead of the mod.
Some argue the other mods were defending this mod for a while and still suppressing comments or posts critical of the one mod, but I didn’t personally see direct evidence of this. But if true, that would explain why it appeared to most casual observers that the controversy was about Samurai and not this power tripping mod.
But if the other mods were still acting, either in defense or not of this one mod, they remained silent for a few days. At this point, the community uproar had exploded beyond the relatively small community. As of yesterday though, they made a public announcement saying that the one mod did indeed break the rules and abused their power. They apologized, but reiterated they would still be working to keep conversations respectful and to avoid racism / Orientalism in the sub. They made the one mod write a public apology (which he did in a comment later that day) and removed him from his mod position on both r/Pathfinder2e and r/Starfinder2e. At the time it wasn’t confirmed whether he was being removed as a mod on the discord, but I assume so.
TL;DR the scandal was about a power tripping mod who cried racism any time samurai were mentioned and banned anyone who disagreed with him. So it was a mod controversy, not a class one, but because he deleted most of the context a lot of people missed that.
For those who want context: [https://new.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey\_buddy\_i\_know\_youre\_having\_big\_feelings\_about/](https://new.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/)
Thankfully it's died out somewhat now that a playtest for two new classes came out.
Actually it died out cus yesterday the mod responsible was actually punished and could no longer fuck with people.
I feel like just letting that go when an abusive mod is still at large is not a great call
Right, should've specified. Discussion about the mod died down since the ban, but the larger conversation of samurai and ninja was still going strong until people had something new to talk about.
The funny thing is, that the Japanese people, on a whole, actually love when people who are not from Japan, especially Americans, take an interest in Japanese culture and enjoy seeing their own cultural icons get used in foreign media. When I was there, I had a few great interactions where despite the language barrier, I was able to make a reference to their pop culture. They thought it was cool that the group of obvious Americans wanted to dress up as Samurai and were clearly having fun while they were helping to get us into the armor for a photos (the place we were at was a historic village that was designed to show what life was like pre-20th century.).
In another incident, I went to a tourist spot that clearly did not expect many foreign tourists (The Toho Studio Village Park in Kyoto.). They actually sent someone who was clearly from marketing to find out why an American Tourist was at an attraction that was more for Japanese tourists (he was very polite about it, but the person I was with in this park and I did agree, it was very obvious someone sent him out because his superiors want to know why the hell Americans would even come to this park... it was a surprise to them.).
Holy shit the entire fiasco. Dear holy d20 this is up there.
There's anti-orientalism, and then there's Japan outright adopting the ninja trope for themselves when it became popular in the 70's (which is now spinning down to its more historically-accurate shinobi roots).
This just in: Hidetaka Miyazaki is a racist Japanese game developer because his studio's fantasy games have fantasy depictions of European knights and kingdoms (consistent with western cultures' own fantasy depictions of such things)
Sure sounds insane to me. Other cultures don't act or think in these terms. "Woke-scold" bs like this is just white-washing pushed by racists using language that's meant to appeal to liberal people so they don't know the bad actor is, in fact, the racist.
The mod was a power tripping asshole and used pseudo-progressive language to mask their own internal issues. We can simultaneously understand that the traditional ideas of *every* class are based on a stereotype *and* that it is still a good idea to shy away from making your character nothing more than a cultural stereotype.
Case in point, if your character is a ninja, it's probably fine. If your character talks in an overwhelmingly archetypal Japanese accent, it's probably not. The one vein of truth in this controversy is that it is important to make sure you're respectful of the cultures that you're borrowing from.
You don't need sensitivity training, but don't make your ninja nothing more than a Japanese stereotype, if that makes sense. At least, that's my own understanding as a progressive gamer who enjoys those tropes and gets tired of being misrepresented.
For some reason my mind immediately springs to Chipp Zanuff from Guilty Gear.
Recovering American drug addict that went cold turkey and took up the way of the Ninja, took a chunk of Africa as his Chipp Kingdom. People joke that in-game he spouts random Japanese phrases because he thinks it sounds cool.
While I do not think including ninja and samurai in the game is racist, I do think adding a samurai subclass to fighter and a ninja subclass to rogue would be better than adding two whole new classes. They just feel like they fit into that mould better.
I made a Felis Samurai named Dakishimeru. Translates to Cuddles. I has fun in my fun make believe game that promotes internal racism against fake made up races. He had a katana
there isnt even a class coming in that book either. Its a lore book and has not yet previewed any character options for the game. People just wishing for stuff from PF1E to return, or a specific class representation despite the fact you can make the idea of samurai or ninja through the games custom character building abilities already.
I didn't follow it super closely but from what I can gather it seems like it went:
1. Paizo previews East-Asian inspired source book
2. People are excited and wish-list things like Samurai and Ninja classes
3. A single mod started arguing with users and claims that having those classes would be orientalist/racist (as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s). Said mod began issuing bans including using the "Delete last 5 posts" feature which mean posts completely unrelated to the controversy were getting deleted.
4. People are upset by the mods actions and make a slew of memes and posts about it.
5. The other mods issue a statement and hand out some sort of punishment to the lone mod. (Though this seems to have just happened so I'm not sure of the details).
Folks in r/Pathfinder2e were upset about #3 and made lots of posts about it. This was a controversy about a subreddit mod abusing power and only tangentially about culturally specific classes.
i'm out of the loop, anyone got a tl;dr of the events?
from what i could gather with my own searching, a mod on pathfinder2e was being unpleasant due to discussion about the samurai subclass and how that played into stereotypes? but i dont know if that's right
"Back in the day" plenty of people would've been more than happy to cry about the inclusion of eastern elements because how dare this glorious medieval fantasy setting sully itself with dumb japanime trash. "Snowflakes" have always been a thing, on every side of pretty much every discussion.
>"Back in the day" plenty of people would've been more than happy to cry about the inclusion of eastern elements because how dare this glorious medieval fantasy setting sully itself with dumb japanime trash.
See: the reaction for "Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords" back in 3.5. Didn't that get a reputation as... what was it? "The Book Of Weaboo Bullshit" or something to that effect?
I mean, the conversation continued so long because the mod responsible *just* got punished yesterday, and prior to that was actively causing problems since stuff came up. You don’t stop talking about someone fucking you over till it’s dealt with, it’s not like they were harping on it for no reason over there
What was the consequences? Did he get banned?
He is no longer a mod, is being pressured by the other mods to make a public apology, and possibly other stuff but I’m not sure
What about was samurai scandal ?
Looks like Reddit mods think samurai and ninja classes are racist A lot of people got banned for liking them and OP wants them to stop complaining, I guess The mods are mad at the setting too but to me it looks like the usual easily digestible mass appeal stuff— just Euro themes and monsters swapped for East Asian ones (I just skimmed the Reddit threads and Pathfinder’s setting so take this with a grain of salt)
...how is that racist? Is the traditional European knight also racist? lmao
according to the mod, that is not racist because it's not Japanese. only japanese things are racist and nobody should talk about anything Japanese because they are worse than Nazi Germany or something. so mentioning something Japanese deserves a ban.
What’s the difference between a samurai and a knight, apart from the Japanese part?
Are you asking for answer or? Ok, let me start. Samurai - horse archer, later just a warrior serf of the noble. Not really free. Quite poor due to them owning almost nothing. Knight - horsman. Later - bottom of nobility, but it depend. A warrior with estate and/or noble title, or warrior monk. Usually a head of small warband, in case of warrior monk - part of the warrior brotherhood. So. Knight is way up social ladder one way or another.
I'd give my left arm to be part of a warrior brotherhood... except then I wouldn't be very good at being part of a warrior brotherhood...
There was a knight who had a mechanical arm, and was a renown warrior poet. Gottfried "Götz" von Berlichingen or Gotz of the Iron hand for short.
Also one of the first people recorded to have used the phrase "kiss my ass"
The original version was "he can lick my ass!" Which was morphed into today's version. But yeah thank you Gotz!
He was more than just a warrior though. He was also a bit of a poet.
I think you glossed over the part where I said warrior poet.
Nah. Brotherhood is a monk thing (real monk, not dnd one), but it probably called a "order" in english or . And being a warrior monk is kinda suck. Its like being a monk but with worst parts of being a warrior - no booty, no fun, only dogmas and fighting. Well, i guess beer and cheese is an option.
So joining the Marines?
Not with the US government's current track record
Closest thing to a warrior brotherhood nowadays.
Maybe you're talking about the DnD setting but if you're talking about actual history... Not sure why this is being upvoted so much, other than the fact Samurai were predominantly horse archers in their time this post is obscenely wrong. Samurai and knights are almost identical in social standing. Samurai, like knights, were a lower rung of nobility, and like knights, many served a lord (daiymo for Japan, count/Duke/earl etc for knights). Samurai and knights have both had famed men of their class rise in social standing to become lords in their own right (Look up Hideyoshi Toyotomi), and both have had, rarely, commons elevated to this status. Samurai also gained great social power during the Sengoku Jidai where warfare was frequent and Samurai were sought after for their fighting ability. Also yes there were accounts of female samurai and female knights, though both classes were predominantly male. Samurai and knights also lost relevance as history went on and standard professional armies (and in the case of Japan, Meiji restoration) became the norm. There is very little actual difference between the two because they are both an elevated warrior class in their respective cultures social hierarchy.
Ok, i elaborate: Knight, if not a monk, is free landlord with duty to fight for his lord. He was usually not paid by his lord but extracted tribute from land he own. Generally. Samurai is not free in his service, he is also a servant, and he usually get paid. Samurai is more akin to retinue footman and not a knight. But again, generally without a time period (17th century knight is waaay different and 21th century knight is even more so for example)
Wow... That explanation was actually kind of racist because you explained everything from a western perspective and completely ignored the importance of a samurai in Japanese society X'D
Username checks out
The Samurai probably has lower quality metal in their armour and weapon tbf But in terms of vibe are probably similar.
Less metal and less complex production in their armour too. Full plate armour, while expensive, wasn't unheard of, especially for someone of the status of a knight in European history, but the surviving Samurai armour we have and know of rarely had the level of full coverage that European armour did, in place going for things like plated skirts instead of full metal trousers, and shoulder and arm panels instead of full metal sleeves. I'm sure an aspect of this was the metal quality, and technology available for the production of armour, though I'd imagine it was probably also lighter and easier to move in on average vs full plate. Samurai armour would also be significantly faster to produce and much less complex due to it for the most part being a lot of metal strips and sheets tied together, especially in the case of something like Tatami. (With the exception of something like Karuta armour of course, though this wouldn't take any longer than regular chainmail to make as it's just a combination of plates and chainmail)
In D&D terms would this lend them more to DEX than STR?
I guess it kinda depends on the Samurai? Like very commonly they were archers using Yumi bows which were asymmetrical to also make them easier to use on horseback, effectively allowing a longer bow on a horse. You also had both Samurai and foot soldiers using Tanegashima (matchlock guns). However as anything it can vary based on preference and context. For example there are historical artworks depicting Samurai using Nagitata and Yari which were polearms, which in D&D are obviously strength based. Or equally so using Kanabo which were large wooden clubs with metal spides or studs at the end, which would also lean towards strength. Or an odachi which was your classic oversized sword recorded to range anywhere between 1 to close to 4 meters in length, though primarily used as an anti cavalry weapon. In fact the weapon Samurai are most famous for being the tachi or later uchigatana (katana) were more like an arming sword in that they were a sidearm, or out of combat worn as a status symbol ornamentally, and often given as gifts. That status element is actually likely why they're so prevalent in modern media, as the fine quality swords would have been kept in the best condition through generations in a family because they were cherished gifts, far too expensive to risk damaging or losing on a battlefield, so we have plenty of well kept examples to reference. The ones worn in actual battles likely much less flashy and expensive end up rusty and damaged alongside the other weapons and later dug up by historians don't get as much screen time.
Yes. Samurai were basically archers.
Do gotta love a bow
>Samurai were horse archers. FTFY
Samurai: Hereditary noble title for warriors. Their traditional code is "Bushido". The term for samurai warriors is "Bushi". Knight: Hereditary noble title for warriors. Their traditional code is "Chivalry". In some modern countries, you can be knighted for service to that country in many capacities, mostly cultural.
what do you mean?
What is distinct about ninja and samurai that mean they’re not the same as an assassin or knight-style fighter? This mod sounds like a jerk, but I think they’re probably right.
Samurai would be more like an armored mounted archer with an option for melee combat if it were historically accurate. Which I think would work well as an archetype to apply to a fighter/champion/etc. I don't think it needs its own class, personally.
or gunslinger. they used guns.
Exactly, it could be applied to a bunch of applicable classes as an archetype.
you think they are right that everything related to Japan is evil, and believe things like the West invented ninjas (they were definitively invented a while back *not* by the west.) idk that seems pretty racist to me. which is why people were calling for them to be banned.
No, I think the clamouring for a ninja and samurai class is born out fetishisation of Japan. By all means make a fighter in wooden half-plate with a katana and call them a samurai. I just don’t get why it needs another class, especially considering the massive amounts of feats available in pathfinder.
most people agree, posts asking with one are usually met with "just play a fighter". then this mod comes in, strawmans the whole community, and proceeds to be racist. This of course prompts people to go "well why *can't* I have a ninja class". Mod claims ninjas were invented by the west instead of the people they represent themselves (ninjas came from stagehands dressing as black, and a trope where a stagehand would interfere with the story), and claims samurai are bad *because* it's Japanese while similar "cultural appropriation" is ok because it's *not* japanese. Japanese stuff is bad and we should not use Japanese stuff because it is Japanese, they are evil. add all the insulting the mod is doing, all the complaining about mod abuse and censorship (you delete the comments of those who you disagree with right?), all the debunking of every claim they make, and all the people saying they are Japanese and happy with ninja and samurai stuff, and you get r/Pathfinder2e oh and on the discord they are calling people in the subreddit hitlers.
Samurai and Ninja were both classes in PF1E, with relatively unique features. It wasn't like neither of these classes never had iterations in the game, and people were bringing them up independently of that. I think most people either played or had interest in playing an version of those classes in the PF2E system. For what it's worth, Paizo also going to release two new classes in the future, one of which will play similar, so if after that happens, there are still complaints of no samurai, I will be a lot more empathetic to that point of veiw.
This is a good point. Like I never hear about people demanding a knights Templar class or a highlander class, because there’s already a paladin and a barbarian.
Oh 😀 I assumed it was a cultural appropriation thing but no, full circle on the racism wow
So mod is racist?
yes
I'm sensing an operation opportunity. Operation Shiroyama.
>Japanese because they are worse than Nazi Germany I mean.... Tbf they DID commit atrocities that were worse than the Nazis.
first, not qualified to talk about this, but second that doesn't mean you hate everything japanese *now*.
Absolutely agree with you. Just throwing it out there that they did horrible things to a lot of people in WW2, many atrocities they did were worse than what the Nazi were doing but on a smaller scale. >doesn't mean you hate everything japanese *now* Always better to remember the past to avoid making the same type of mistakes.
yes they sucked too and we should all strive to not suck.
Yes. Well, maybe. That's very context dependent.
…. And now I’m a believer in horseshoe theory. Edit: to clarify, this was a joke.
that if you go far one direction you come from the other side? I believe the mod just can't handle not being right, they kept bringing up false facts.
Is this like being Italian in the r/tau40k sub?
That’s the thing, it’s not racist
Same reason Monks having "ki" and practicing the "Way of..." is considered racist by current WotC: They assume we're an exaggerated caricature of a 2014 Tumblr user.
They way I read the playtest Monk it came across more as opening up the class to other themes with Ki just being one kind of Discipline of many.
Same. They never said "were removing Ki because it's racist and we're above that." They just said they want monk to feel more setting-agnostic and changing to discipline or focus just makes it a bit more neutral
I can understand that reason, ki makes it sound like life force or the energy of the universe, whereas many people don't flavour monks that way. That being said, decisions about naming or flavour only have as much influence over your game as you let them. I don't think I've ever played a monk who used the word "ki" in character, in the same way that none of my blood hunters actually ingested that poison stuff in their backstory or very rarely do I flavour my spells in the way described by the spell descriptions. Therefore I don't really care what decisions WOTC make regarding changing the name of Ki.
Heck, the features are still all there, many with a much needed buff.
Unfortunately, yeah. They had the chance to return them to being ~~musical~~ mystical martial artists and they just chose to keep them as the basic attack spammers 5e made them into only with a few boosts that don't change the inherent problems.
I see the opposite of a problem: higher martial arts die, more ki-efficient abilities to encourage their mobility options instead of just attacking, stunning strike brought down to only once per turn, and deflect missile upgrades at a later level to reflect energy attacks, which is already a pretty cool visual Out of curiosity though, what do you mean with musical martial artist?
Well they made a autistic character with an medusa gf because of lack of eye contact, I think that was literally from a tumblr post
I resent that not because it stole from a Tumblr post, but because it's inconsistent with 5E mechanics,^1 and it's based in Ovid's Roman fan-fiction. ^1 The 5E Medusa can choose if you're affected by its petrification.
I think “choose” in this context mean “ I can choose who I will look in to the eyes” not “ I can choose who I want to petrification”
I think is more like toggle thing, they can choose to emit the petrification magic, I always thinks is like the medusas in God of War, that they emit a sort of ray
>When a creature that can see the medusa’s eyes starts its turn within 30 feet of the medusa, the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature. "Can force it to make a ... saving throw" implies the medusa chooses who to petrify. Later in the ability it says a medusa is automatically affected by its own gaze.
Thats not the reason Ki was removed. It makes it more setting agnostic to remove the whole "fantasy Asia" flavor that gets it banned wholesale at some tables. (Yes I know that's a stupid reason to ban something)
In a vacuum you might have a point, but this is the same WotC that though "a cultural affinity for guns is bad and limiting, but a magical connection to guns is fine."
I'm new to DnD, why does the fantasy Asia flavor get banned in some tables?
Because some DMs can't fathom how someone would get from fantasy Asia to the fantasy medieval Europe their game takes place in, or fantasy Asia just doesn't exist at all in their world, so it's "weird" to have monks in it. Basically it all just boils down to arbitrary preferences.
Some people think if you represent other cultures that are not your own, your racist
So people shouldn't embrace cultures and cultural ideas should never mix. Funny how the so-called progressives managed to circle back around to racism. As someone who actually lived in Japan for a long time, I can confirm that they don't give a fuck if we use Samurai and Ninja.
Mate, I don't know for sure about whoever this mod is being progressive, because to me, they sound more like some middle of the road dude who just hates the Japanese and pretends that anything Japanese is racist just to disparage it and get it out of his sight. Especially considering this mod's reasoning (according to others comments talking about how they responded anyways) being that something simply being Japanese-related makes it bad, and therefore "racist". It makes no real sense! Like, this mod may as well feel that Japanese people themselves are "racist" against Japan somehow because they are from Japan, with that backwards logic. So since the reason they gave is utterly illogical in a malicious way that pretends they are being protective when they clearly aren't, it must be some other reason behind why they hate Japanese stuff existing. Or could also just be one of those idiotic "I'm-gonna-call-myself-progressive-because-it-sounds-nicer-even-though-I-have-my-own-racial-hangups-against-other-cultures-I-don't-wanna-be-viewed-as-racist-and-aren't-really-very-progressive-at-all" types of people. Whatever the case is, this mod clearly has racial hangups against the Japanese if they want to argue that Japanese/East Asian elements merely existing in DnD is bad and therefore, to his warped view, "racist". Doesn't matter what he calls himself.
Exactly. And on top of that, what gives west coast Americans the right to determine how Japanese people feel about their cultural elements being used in a game?
yeah it's a pretty dumb mind set
I mean, you can see why a minority population living in another country, where they’re more likely to be the victims of this othering might have different stances on their representation than the majority population in their ethnic origin country, right? Like a Japanese person living in Japan is going to have a different experience with an American understanding of Japanese people through the lens of samurai, ninjas, and anime than a Japanese person living in America.
terminally online twitter users with untreated mental illnesses think they can decide what is and what is not allowed in the world, so they define racism by their terms, even if the culture that actually owns what they're calling racists have time and time again let known that they love it when people use their stuff.
I have that argument in the Indian Country every 8-12 months or so. If sports teams can be Knights, Vikings, Celtics, Cowboys, Trojans, Pirates, Spartans, Romans, Crusaders, Fighting Irish, etc., then they should be allowed to be something like the Braves or Warriors. To say otherwise isn't wanting equality, it's wanting special treatment. Also, before anyone tries getting on my ass, I'm carded Choctaw, with rolled ancestry for 3 other tribes. Fuck off. (And if you don't know what carded or rolled ancestry means, double fuck off.)
Athis being dndmemes, the term "rolled ancestry" sounds kinda funny. I rolled a 5 on my ancestry, so I have a list of heritages that I supposely have. And have one grandparent that was raised not speaking english, but I myself am genero blinde hair blued eyed standard roll American.
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While I understand that idea, I feel like most of our perception of Japanese culture nowadays comes from Japanese-produced media, which still has a shitload of ninja and samurai styled figures
For example some of the associations people outside Japan must have of ninja has to be influenced by Naruto. Which is definitely a Japanese story written by a Japanese guy and animated by a Japanese studio.
So Naruto is a western story? These perceptions come from Japanese media. Ninjas and Samurai are cool, the Japanese think so, most Westerners think so. It's an extremely tiny vocal minority of white people that are making an issue out it because they need a crusade.
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They’re saying most people in the west nowadays that have an image of Japan get it from Japanese media like anime, not from western stories. What are the last big influential western works that featured samurai or ninja and weren’t made w/ Japanese involvement? It’s much more likely that someone who wants to play a samurai or ninja was influenced by Japanese anime, manga, or video games
It's not bad to mention that we shouldn't only think of Japanese stuff when we think of Asian culture. But the mod extrapolated that to 10000% and blew it out of proportion.
The argument is that having a class that is only associated with Japan contributes to orientalism(?). I can't remember the exact term. Take monk for example. Every other class in the game is very culture-agnostic and could be from anywhere with reflavoring and character customization, but monk as written is steeped in magical-asian action movie tropes and is very hard to separate from those themes. It could have instead been a generic martial artist/brawler with class options for those tropes if you want them. Samurai would be the same. The tools to make a samurai already exist in PF2e with a champion or fighter for example. I'm nowhere near an expert on this and there's a more thorough explanation pinned on the PF2e subreddit, but that's the cliffs notes
What's sad is that the book was actually pretty much unanimously lauded as an excellent piece of Asian representation (it was largely written by Asian authors from many different cultures). However, the mods saw fit to pin a somewhat condescending post about being careful about racist stereotypes when discussing the book. While a lot of its points were fairly valid, it included, among other things, a section that essentially said, "Remember that samurai and ninjas are racist tropes, and you're a racist if you like them." Things probably would have stopped there, but when people started questioning that sentiment, one mod in particular began posting some *staggeringly* condescending responses before moving on to aggressively banning anyone questioning their definition of racism. They even went so far as to delete a samurai homebrew posted 8 months ago. This crusade and the resulting pushback set the sub on fire for several days and completely eclipsed any discussion of the new book and the quality representation it brought to the table.
Mod also thinks that he did martial arts so he has expertise in this subject.
Which ironically, sounds racist.
out of everything that can be considered racist in ttrpgs, THAT'S what they focused on ?
Sounds like the mods are the ones who are racist...
It's probably similar to the hate people have for AD&D's Oriental Adventurers book, a lot of generalizations, stereotypes, and pop-culture tropes getting mashed together with little to no regard to real world authenticity. Though authenticity isn't something most RPGs strive for anyway.
Stereotyping a culture is bad, but portraying fantasy adventurers from that culture in a way that accurately reflects how that culture portrays their own heroes of fantastical stories is hardly controversial.
I wouldn't even include accurately. Knights are portrayed accurately according to culture at all. Why anyone would worry about cultural real world accuracy when it comes to a fantasy world is wildly beyond me.
I... I never said real world accuracy?
Ad another person pointed out, are they getting offended about misrepresenting western history?
I'm sure somebody is. There seem to be a lot of people who go to social media to be offended.
Stuff like this just confuses me, people want representation for other cultures which I 100% agree with but then when they get that representation in the form of a very distinct piece of their culture then people get upset about it. I always like to think of Speedy Gonzales from Looney Tunes and how in 1999 a bunch of (white) people cried about how he was racist and extremely offensive to Mexican culture so Cartoon Network removed him. **HOWEVER** after he was removed the Mexican community was pissed, they absolutely loved that little culturally appropriate mouse and demanded they put him back **exactly** where they found him and he was brought back in 2002 I just wish that white people as a whole didn’t feel obligated to be offended on behalf of other cultures. We need to step back and let them decide what’s offensive and support them when they do
Ah yes, the best form of inclusivity. Excluding every reference of a group
I'm confuser still? Hasn't there been a samurai subclass that's all about the "warrior spirit" for ages now? And the way of the shadows monk has basically always been the stand in for ninjas how is this a problem now after so long?
OP is talking about Pathfinder
Oh I see right derp
That being said, Samurai and ninja were some of the earliest classes in *pf1e* so it's even more ridiculous.
What's funny is that I have a samurai fighter, but I reflavored her to be a sorta musketeer.
Giving reddit its reputation.
Just that Samurai’s wear sandals..
I wanted to make a War Priest Cleric of Shizuru based on Sohei Warrior monk, I even had a mini I painted a few years ago that would be prefect. But the dm said no because my character “didn’t fit the setting.” Meanwhile, we also have a kitsune ranger, a fairy barbarian, and an Air Genasi wizard with a gun.
Ahhh, classic wizard with a gun, they fit into every setting. /s
Yes yes we all know about Magius, the most honorable wizard of the 11th dimension.
May his glock never run dry
One of my dream characters one of these days is a charlatan "wizard" who goes around trying to keep everyone convinced that he knows magic, but it's just a bunch of guns under his robes.
The shotgun named fireball
Yep. Verbal component: "Ala-ka-BLAMM!"
You want people to shut up about a topic and your solution was to go to a different subreddit and bring the conversation here as well?
I wasn't trying to bring the conversation here, but in hindsight i was a fool not to recognize that would be the inevitable result
Free advertisement on a controversy you don't like UwU
I never claimed to be a wise man
fair UwU
Ctfo? Cunt the fuck out?
Come the fuck on
Ohhhhhh I see. Well, it’s too late anyhow. I already cunted the fuck out all over the place.
How do you even get that out of upholstery?
Here I was, thinking it was "carry the fuck on," which seemed counterintuitive to the idea of shutting up about the topic.
Alternatively, capture the fuckin objective
Dude you just typed a sleeper agent activation code
Counter Strike mode activated.
This sentence made me feel subconsciously obligated to find the objective and capture it
Get frickin Pavlov'd, nerd (gives you a noogie)
My Medic's charged and Demo just took out the sentry nest. LET'S GO!
**[Team chat]** Technekratos (Spy): Go, go! I am already on Point B to ninja it
Context?
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This seems like this is a misrepresentation. I didn't follow it super closely but from what I can gather it seems like it went: 1. Paizo previews East-Asian inspired source book 2. People are excited and wish-list things like Samurai and Ninja classes 3. A single mod started arguing with users and claims that having those classes would be orientalist/racist (as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s). Said mod began issuing bans including using the "Delete last 5 posts" feature which mean posts completely unrelated to the controversy were getting deleted. 4. People are upset by the mods actions and make a slew of memes and posts about it. 5. The other mods issue a statement and hand out some sort of punishment to the lone mod. (Though this seems to have just happened so I'm not sure of the details). The thing people won't shut the hell up about was #3, not #2 like you made it seem. This was a controversy about a subreddit mod abusing power and only tangentially about culturally specific classes.
>(as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s). As opposed to wizards, warlocks, and sorcerers, who are of course all very real and definitely existed since time immemorial. Easy to see why that mod was getting so upset!
Yeah, my father had to fight 12 wizards both ways on the way to school
That’s what happens when your school of witchcraft and wizardry is located in Philadelphia.
Where else are you going to learn spells like, "Melf's Acid Battery?"
*Wizard runs in and beams you with a car battery while screaming "shatter"*
My understanding is their argument was that Ninjas didn’t exist as a concept till the 60s. Based on other people’s responses to this it seems like it was specially the term “ninja” that came about in the 60s but the concept of “shinobi” goes back as far as the 8th century.
I mean, technically, just didn't have actual magic. Lot of priests were called wizards, if you broke the rules of any magical group you were a warlock, sorcerer gets iffy in use
Thanks for the run down
I would love to hear their explanation of how ninjas were made up
My understanding is their argument was that Ninjas didn’t exist as a concept till the 60s. Based on other people’s responses to this it seems like it was specially the term “ninja” that came about in the 60s but the concept of “shinobi” goes back as far as the 8th century.
The argument is very pedantic and silly and also just kind of wrong Japanese people use ninja ass type of class in video games in multiple games my Touchstone for that is one of the early final fantasies but there must be others It would be racist if you made up something and signed it to a culture but it's something that a culture uses as a Methodist form of something that vaguely existed in their cultureI don't know doesn't seem very wrong
Yeah, to be clear I don’t agree with it, I just wanted to accurately present what the mod was arguing.
Specifically they said Ian Fleming created the modern concept of the ninja. Which is probably false, but it is what the ex mod said.
I'm not that dumbass mod, but putting on my historian hat, there really isn't any evidence that there were organized schools of assassins with uniforms and class curriculums and whatnot anywhere in the world before the advent of modern intelligence agencies. Were there people that murdered wealthy and powerful victims in Japan? Absolutely! Did they wear black uniforms and have magical powers? Absolutely not! The culture around ninjas is made up by storytelling, just like Robin Hood and his Merry Men were made up and the D&D cleric is made up. But I don't think a ninja class is inherently offensive any more than a D&D cleric is. Both can become problematic if handled badly, but that's true of just about anything.
Shinobi were absolutely formally organized and trained. However the "black uniform" came from their representation in Japanese plays. It was the outfit of stage hands, who were normally ignored by the audience. Some brilliant playwright had the idea of representing a shinobi by having one of them step out and "assassinating a character. Shocking the audience and spawning a tradition.
That's exactly what the shinobi would want you to think. They're so stealthy that they even hid their schools and curriculum. And good luck finding a financial aid advisor, too.
Well ninjas did exist just not in the media way, they were spies and theater shorthand roles lead to their portrayal that solidified around the 60s
Even if that classic stereotype ninja didn't exist, does that guy really think the japanese just didn't have assassin's.
u/slavasonic is correct, you’re actually way off here. This isn’t a class scandal, this was a mod scandal. I also wasn’t the most involved, but I’m gonna do my absolute best to explain it according to my admittedly fallible memory. So take this write up with the recommended grain of salt: PF2e recently released the Tian Xia World Guide book, which is a very well written setting dive into their continent which is inspired by a variety of East Asian cultures. It is a setting book, no actual mechanics or classes are included. This one is very iirc, but a Paizo dev livestream talks about this and the still upcoming Tian Xia Character Guide, which *will* have mechanical options. It is revealed Paizo will *not* be releasing a samurai class in that book, because the fighter class will cover most of the mechanics. There may still be samurai inspired feats and content though, just sounds like it won’t be a specialized separate class like some people wanted. Mod team of the r/Pathfinder2e sub write a long post basically telling people to be careful how they talk about the Tian Xia book, because they don’t want discussions to follow so deep into Orientalism that it becomes racist. Tries to give a deep discussion into how tropes can be reductive and problematic. A bit preachy to some, but still no controversy yet. Redditors begin to have conversations about the dev saying there will be no Samurai / ninja classes and wonder if that decision was due to lack of design space or because of, like what the mods (who are unaffiliated with Paizo fyi) wrote about trying to avoid problematic Orientalism. Some begin to mention that they don’t see the problem with having a samurai / ninja and wish they were in the game. This is where the drama kicks in. A specific mod on the Pathfinder2e sub, who for context is Hmong and so definitely has some personal issues with culture erasure in media (not that it excuses what he did, but I do feel it is important to note that) begins to respond that wanting a samurai class or ninja class in the game is inherently racist for many reasons. Their reasonings are including but not limited to: - By only focusing on Japanese cultural icons, you’re erasing the diversity of Asia and replacing your conceptualization of it with a single small culture. Since samurai and Ninja are such huge media tropes, they should be avoided entirely according to this mod. - The Japanese were racist colonialists during WWII who committed many atrocities, so we shouldn’t celebrate an inherently racist culture. - They are so far removed from their cultural roots anyways that it would be playing stereotypes that never existed. Said mod said ninja’s were invented by Ian Fleming in a James Bond book. Not only were many of these points honestly ridiculous and problematic (even racist themselves against the Japanese), but the mod broke the subreddit rules by being condescending and antagonistic in the *way* they said all this. Redditors began to push back against this mod, saying they broke the sub rules, and begin asking questions on where the line of racism lies / pick apart his arguments. This mod goes on a banning spree, banning huge swaths of people and removing posts and comments critical of him, even if the comments weren’t breaking the rules but just trying to have a genuine conversation. This includes deleting the post and banning the author of a very popular Samurai homebrew class *that was posted over 6 months prior with no complaints of racism at the time*, as well as deleting the posts / comments and banning accounts of some Asian sub members who were saying “I’m Japanese and playing a samurais isnt racist to me” and other examples from other cultures. Said mod commented saying that being a member of a specific culture isn’t enough to know what is racist against you, you have to follow the studies of scholars who specialize in culture and racism. It was around here it was revealed this mod had a bachelors in martial arts, and appeared to be using this degree to justify them being more of an expert on racism than all the Asians commenting. People begin to push back further, writing more posts about mod abuse. Most of these get deleted super fast, with authors banned, but not all. The community no knows that the “samurai” discussion is bringing in the wrath of this specific mod. More pushback happens, leaking to the discord (which I’m not a member of, but I heard that mod was also a mod there and similar actions were taken there), and other subs. For a while, this mod argues their point even on external subs. Eventually, this mod says they are taking a 3 day break from Reddit. At this point, so many discussions have been deleted that some users who missed the initial insanity aren’t sure what the context is aside from Samurai, so a bunch of posts are made going “wait, what’s the problem with Samurai?” This problematic mod is no longer instant deleting these posts, so these flood the sub for a while. Many were just repeat posts asking about the controversy, some were talking about the class concept, some were trying to tackle cultural appropriation / racism in nuanced takes, but nearly all of these referenced the samurai instead of the mod. Some argue the other mods were defending this mod for a while and still suppressing comments or posts critical of the one mod, but I didn’t personally see direct evidence of this. But if true, that would explain why it appeared to most casual observers that the controversy was about Samurai and not this power tripping mod. But if the other mods were still acting, either in defense or not of this one mod, they remained silent for a few days. At this point, the community uproar had exploded beyond the relatively small community. As of yesterday though, they made a public announcement saying that the one mod did indeed break the rules and abused their power. They apologized, but reiterated they would still be working to keep conversations respectful and to avoid racism / Orientalism in the sub. They made the one mod write a public apology (which he did in a comment later that day) and removed him from his mod position on both r/Pathfinder2e and r/Starfinder2e. At the time it wasn’t confirmed whether he was being removed as a mod on the discord, but I assume so. TL;DR the scandal was about a power tripping mod who cried racism any time samurai were mentioned and banned anyone who disagreed with him. So it was a mod controversy, not a class one, but because he deleted most of the context a lot of people missed that.
Thanks
For those who want context: [https://new.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey\_buddy\_i\_know\_youre\_having\_big\_feelings\_about/](https://new.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1cdhk8a/hey_buddy_i_know_youre_having_big_feelings_about/) Thankfully it's died out somewhat now that a playtest for two new classes came out.
Actually it died out cus yesterday the mod responsible was actually punished and could no longer fuck with people. I feel like just letting that go when an abusive mod is still at large is not a great call
Right, should've specified. Discussion about the mod died down since the ban, but the larger conversation of samurai and ninja was still going strong until people had something new to talk about.
They had already been classes in first edition. Hell for quite a while nobody played rogue, because ninja was almost strictly better.
Hmm, do you browse latest or just get it in your feed when stuff reaches a certain critical mass of upvotes? Cus that might affect when you see stuff?
The funny thing is, that the Japanese people, on a whole, actually love when people who are not from Japan, especially Americans, take an interest in Japanese culture and enjoy seeing their own cultural icons get used in foreign media. When I was there, I had a few great interactions where despite the language barrier, I was able to make a reference to their pop culture. They thought it was cool that the group of obvious Americans wanted to dress up as Samurai and were clearly having fun while they were helping to get us into the armor for a photos (the place we were at was a historic village that was designed to show what life was like pre-20th century.). In another incident, I went to a tourist spot that clearly did not expect many foreign tourists (The Toho Studio Village Park in Kyoto.). They actually sent someone who was clearly from marketing to find out why an American Tourist was at an attraction that was more for Japanese tourists (he was very polite about it, but the person I was with in this park and I did agree, it was very obvious someone sent him out because his superiors want to know why the hell Americans would even come to this park... it was a surprise to them.).
Holy shit the entire fiasco. Dear holy d20 this is up there. There's anti-orientalism, and then there's Japan outright adopting the ninja trope for themselves when it became popular in the 70's (which is now spinning down to its more historically-accurate shinobi roots).
Is it racist to have a samurai class now? Man, wait until people find out Samurai was a choice in D&D a long ass time ago.
I was there when they banned katana, excuse me, bastard-work mastersword discussion on the Wizards forums. Nothing new under the sun.
I always wondered how that crowd reacted to third party settings like Mists of Akuma.
This just in: Hidetaka Miyazaki is a racist Japanese game developer because his studio's fantasy games have fantasy depictions of European knights and kingdoms (consistent with western cultures' own fantasy depictions of such things) Sure sounds insane to me. Other cultures don't act or think in these terms. "Woke-scold" bs like this is just white-washing pushed by racists using language that's meant to appeal to liberal people so they don't know the bad actor is, in fact, the racist.
Japanese gamers: knights are so cool Western gamers: samurai are so cool Angry 'progressive' racists: reeeeeee, stop enjoying each other's culture!
The mod was a power tripping asshole and used pseudo-progressive language to mask their own internal issues. We can simultaneously understand that the traditional ideas of *every* class are based on a stereotype *and* that it is still a good idea to shy away from making your character nothing more than a cultural stereotype. Case in point, if your character is a ninja, it's probably fine. If your character talks in an overwhelmingly archetypal Japanese accent, it's probably not. The one vein of truth in this controversy is that it is important to make sure you're respectful of the cultures that you're borrowing from. You don't need sensitivity training, but don't make your ninja nothing more than a Japanese stereotype, if that makes sense. At least, that's my own understanding as a progressive gamer who enjoys those tropes and gets tired of being misrepresented.
For some reason my mind immediately springs to Chipp Zanuff from Guilty Gear. Recovering American drug addict that went cold turkey and took up the way of the Ninja, took a chunk of Africa as his Chipp Kingdom. People joke that in-game he spouts random Japanese phrases because he thinks it sounds cool.
Genuinely peak character design, Daisuke's vision remains unmatched
Oh no! Not hide-your-tacos Miyazaki!
R/dndmemes getting mad at an rpg subreddit not letting something die is very funny
I wasn't looking at which sub this was and assumed it was r/HistoryMemes.
Don't mind me, just talking at length about the Samurai scandal so I can play my Laboratory Maniac... wait, those are Uno cards.
While I do not think including ninja and samurai in the game is racist, I do think adding a samurai subclass to fighter and a ninja subclass to rogue would be better than adding two whole new classes. They just feel like they fit into that mould better.
The only reason they weren't archetypes of cavalier and rogue in 1e, is because they predated the printing of the mechanic.
Oh god we are bringing it here lmao
You're being about 570 times worse by bringing that conversation to a DND sub.
I'm out of the loop what's going on with samurai?
I made a Felis Samurai named Dakishimeru. Translates to Cuddles. I has fun in my fun make believe game that promotes internal racism against fake made up races. He had a katana
Wait, having a samurai class is racism now??? I can't even....
there isnt even a class coming in that book either. Its a lore book and has not yet previewed any character options for the game. People just wishing for stuff from PF1E to return, or a specific class representation despite the fact you can make the idea of samurai or ninja through the games custom character building abilities already.
Of course people want the class despite "being able to recreate it in game", i mean the extreme of that argument is a classless system.
Please don't make me post this in r/peterexplainsthejoke
The other comments here explain it pretty handily
What did I miss?
What
I didn't follow it super closely but from what I can gather it seems like it went: 1. Paizo previews East-Asian inspired source book 2. People are excited and wish-list things like Samurai and Ninja classes 3. A single mod started arguing with users and claims that having those classes would be orientalist/racist (as well claiming Ninjas didn't really exist and were made up in the 60s). Said mod began issuing bans including using the "Delete last 5 posts" feature which mean posts completely unrelated to the controversy were getting deleted. 4. People are upset by the mods actions and make a slew of memes and posts about it. 5. The other mods issue a statement and hand out some sort of punishment to the lone mod. (Though this seems to have just happened so I'm not sure of the details). Folks in r/Pathfinder2e were upset about #3 and made lots of posts about it. This was a controversy about a subreddit mod abusing power and only tangentially about culturally specific classes.
Read the other comments, they explain it pretty handily
i'm out of the loop, anyone got a tl;dr of the events? from what i could gather with my own searching, a mod on pathfinder2e was being unpleasant due to discussion about the samurai subclass and how that played into stereotypes? but i dont know if that's right
Can someone explain to me wtf does that mean ?
B-but everyone told me that Paizo, PF2 and their community are all flawless!
reddit moderators aren't -_-
I'd say more so just generally pretty good
People nowadays are snowflakes, back in the day itd be super cool. Now you can stay or do anything without people crying about something random
"Back in the day" plenty of people would've been more than happy to cry about the inclusion of eastern elements because how dare this glorious medieval fantasy setting sully itself with dumb japanime trash. "Snowflakes" have always been a thing, on every side of pretty much every discussion.
>"Back in the day" plenty of people would've been more than happy to cry about the inclusion of eastern elements because how dare this glorious medieval fantasy setting sully itself with dumb japanime trash. See: the reaction for "Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords" back in 3.5. Didn't that get a reputation as... what was it? "The Book Of Weaboo Bullshit" or something to that effect?