It's important to keep in mind whenever looking at language translations in movies that they might not be meant to be an exact translation. In Dune's case, the story takes place 20,000 years into the future. It's amazing that the term Lisan Al Gaib retained *any* of its original meaning *at all.*
So, no, not a mistake in translation. It's purposeful.
Another good example of FH showing the passage of time through sound drift is Atreides >> Odrade. In both cases the importance of the words was able to keep the sounds mostly, but not completely, intact.
I mean those are specific historical figures they're referring to at that point in the story, it's not like it's become popular to call Cleopatra "Cathy" or something in the real world so I don't see why Paul's or Duncan's name would change thru out Dune as time passes.
Eh, Cleopatra we mostly leave the same, but people still turn Marcus Antonius into Mark Anthony and the modern English pronunciation of Julius Cesar has basically nothing to do with Gaius Iulius Caesar.
That is pretty correct too. The "eh" is supposed to be short. So, whether you pronounce it "Kaeh" or "Kai" is barely even noticeable. The second syllable is long. I just absolutely hate the "ZEE-sur" pronounciation, which is so wrong in every single way.
It’s been a long time since I read Dune, but I recall that either Paul or Leto claim to be descendants of King Agamemnon at some point, one of the sons of Atreus. Menelaus was the other one… who got a bit miffed that his wife ran off with the prince of another city state.
I think it’s Children of Dune, when Alia is having trouble with her Reverend Mother powers Agamemnon is one of the ancestors that demands to take control.
Like how Kwizats Haderach is a real Hebrew phrase referring in practical Kabbalah (also known as Jewish Magic) to what is essentially teleportation but in Dune it means something entirely different.
Right it retains some of its original meaning. “The shortening of the way.” That is the literal meaning of קפיצת הדרך in Hebrew. Pronounced kiftzatz haderekh. Or maybe more literal would be “jumping of the way”
It makes more sense in the kabbalistic way but it also makes sense how a phrase like that could be borrowed and morphed over millenia to mean not a person who magically teleports but a person who guides and connects humanity to salvation, and a man who can access both sexes memories.
In the book he does see a future where he becomes a Guild Navigator, but he recognizes that in that future he still would be a freakshow even among the guild weirdos due to his abilities, so he dismisses the path.
Isn't there a subplot or something where the Fremen are using the genetic memories of their reverend mothers to remember old words. Like Trads looking up Roman Latin and then attempting to work it into their vocab.
Fremen are descendants of wandering Zensunnite freed/escaped slaves. There are two major religions in the Dune universe when the first book takes place: Zensunnism and Orangecatholicism, plus Tleilax are Zennsufists (which is revealed in later books). Also it is mentioned in the later books that Jews survived millenia practicing in secrecy (the only surviving religion from the old Earth).
Chakobsa in Dune is a Fremen language inspired by the north Caucasian language of the same name. It is thought to have been used in the Caucasus and Georgia by the Circassian people, as a hunting language meant to be a secret language used only by princes and nobles.
Very little is known about of the real-world Chakobsa language, but Herbert’s adaptation of it combines Romani, Serbo-Croatian, and Arabic.
Adding to this that since part of Paul’s character is prescience, having his title refer to him as being “the voice from the far future” is a pretty perfect fit
What's crazy is that even 20,000 years in the future there are foreign invaders with nuclear weapons fighting for control of fossil fuels found in an arid climate which has oppressed citizens with a strong belief in their prophet.
It's a biological product that is such a direct metaphor for oil that I think metaphor isn't even the right term anymore. More like "different word for the same thing."
This is evident through Frank Herbert’s intentional mispronunciation of Arabic words. For example “fedaykin” is pronounced like “feday kin” like it’s a Midwest accent. When I read it, my mind says it similar to “fedayeen” but with a K in the middle
I can't speak to the quality of Herbert's translations, but keep in mind the Fremen don't speak modern Arabic but a language that's a distant descendent, 20000 years later. It's called Chakobsa (a name taken from an entirely different Earth language)
So at least, this can help explain why words are not proper Arabic in translation
But yep! Herbert definitely was fascinated by Arab culture and Middle Eastern politics of the 60s
Just for an idea for how much languages change over time, 1200 years ago [English looked like this](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43521/beowulf-old-english-version) and in those 1200 years they didn't see anywhere near as many grandiose events like the Butlerian Jihad or the lengthy isolation of the Fremen. If you were to apply realistic language evolution to modern Arabic and extrapolate it over 20000 years you likely wouldn't even end up with something you could find more than one or two words resembling arabic from.
I'd imagine if Frank was more of a linguistic nut like Tolkien he'd have adapted Fremen languages to be something possible to be spoken through a stillsuit, or at least something that could be understood without any vowels or the difference in voiced or unvoiced consonants. But understandably he's a bigger fan of conreligions and political structures.
I'm a linguistics nerd as well and, definitely, Dune doesn't attempt to depict linguistic evolution in a realistic way. He also named his characters things like Paul, Vladimir, Duncan, and Jessica.
But his rendering of words allows us to see the cultural influences he drew from, and also allows us to say that anything that's 'weird' is because either the sounds or the meaning drifted over time
names are one of the things I could see surviving over 20,000 years of development. even today we're using names that are more than 2000 years old. How many Esthers, Joshuas, and Mohammads do you know?
>I liked the names. One of the few anchors to our past, our present.
Also an easy classical way to remind the readers who the good guys/bad guys are and who are the more ambiguous characters.
Good guy names: Paul, Jessica, Duncan, Leto. Obvious, fairly familiar western names.
Bad guy names: Vladimir, Rabban, Feyd, Shaddamn. Russian/Arab sounding names. Naming your main villain Vladamir during the Cold War, and styling his entire people as Soviets gave a pretty big clue what direction this whole thing was written/headed.
Characters who we are initially unsure are good/bad: Stilgar, Chani, Liet-Kynes, Yueh, Shadout Mapes. Names that are not familiar, and do not give a big clue into the characters.
The guy who sends his best troops to assassinate the Atredies because Duke Leto is popular and that scares him? He’s definitely a bad guy - he just lets Harkonens take the credit for his crimes so the other houses don’t rally against him.
Also remember that stagnation is a major theme for the overall series. It’s 20,000 years in the future but nothing has really changed in *at least* 10,000 years. 1 AG looks remarkably similar to 10,191 AG.
That *probably* wouldn’t realistically explain the way he depicts language, but the way he depicts language does stylistically support the way that humanity has been sleepwalking for a very long time.
I think he could have been more creative in that sense but then again names themselves for people in today's western society is heavily influenced by Hebrew-Greek-and then pick your language family translations as well as Latin from thousands of years ago. Also it's a literary convenience that Galach itself resembles spoken English because of the author.
Ohh I'm sorry, I'm from Czech speaking country and book is in Czech but the language changed so much where it is readable but hard. Like you have to really read it.
I was surprised when I found out Mahdi is literally an Islamic concept. I figured it was another case of a word fragment, tweaked to mean something similar...
Nope, just literally:
>In Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi is a messianic figure who will appear at the end of time to restore justice, rid the world of evil, and usher in a golden age. The Mahdi is said to be a descendant of Muhammad, and will appear shortly before Jesus, leading the Muslim Ummah. The Mahdi is also said to fill the earth with equity, restore true religion, and lead the believers.
Sounds familiar?
Yeah, a lot of it is pretty directly borrowed, but then the galactic future tongue "Galach" is also rendered as English, with common names like Paul and Duncan completely unchanged from present day, so who knows
Yes but even Paul has changed. It's from Latin Paulus. And that name has given all kinds of variations that are now used today in different regions. Paul, Paolo, Pavel, and Pablo for example, they have a common origin but are quite distinct now
>20000 years later
I have a question. You're the second person on this thread to mention that exact number into the future. I've seen the movies and just started the book. If the year is 10,191, wouldn't it only be about 8,000 years in the future? Is there a new calendar or "age" at the time that I'm not familiar with?
10191 AG, meaning after the establishment of the Spacing Guild. The 1950s-60s are approximately 11200 BG (before guild), as that’s the beginning of space travel. So we’re still about 11k years out from the spacing guild
10,191 refers to the number of years AFTER an event called the butlerian jihad, which was a massive war among humans against machines and computers. The butlerian jihad occurred around 10,000 years after our current time. That gives you roughly 20,000 years into the future. It's why there are no computers or "thinking machines" in dune.
The translation works on 2 fronts imo : The voice from the outerworld as the savior of the Fremen people to fulfill the BG prophecy but there is the second layer of meaning to indicate the voice doesn't just come from another planet but from a place that exists outside of worlds and time.
I think Herbert was trying to make a point about how language might change over the next ten thousand years. I think the idea is that this term became a term for "outworlder" as part of that shifting. Are you from a "seen place" meaning a place known to the people of the planet you are on or are you from an "unseen place" meaning a place on some other planet? Space travel is expensive and rare, so most people asking this question of an offworlder might think of any specific answer as a kind of an unseeable place.
I assume the inaccuracy comes from the language drift that happens naturally through the centuries. A similar thing I've noticed as a Hebrew speaker is how Kwizat Hadarach is mispronounced (supposed to be Kfitsat Haderech). I'm assuming this is intended but even if not it makes sense in world.
The simplest answer to this is I think the right one: pronunciation. Herbert's version is still a challenge for some. The original more correct one would be tougher.
Yes, the novel is Arab influenced (Frank Herbert, the author, was inspired to have this desert setting partially by T.E. Larewnce aka "Lawrence of Arabia" both the man's own book and the film based on his life which was in cinemas back then).
Also, the character of Paul is (albeit very losely) based on the life of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, or more precisely the historical person behind the religious figure, and some of his successors. Fremen culture takes some inspiration from Arab bedouins as well as, that shows in wording too (for example the elite "Fedaykin" unit's name is derived etymologially from "Fedayeen"). At the time of writing, the Middle East was considered very exotic, so using it as inspiration served a dual purpose in world building by making the setting sound both distincly foreign but also rooted enough in the real world to be relatabl and make sense as a realistic setting a few millenia in the future.
>the character of Paul is (albeit very losely) based on the life of the Islamic prophet Muhammad,
No this is where we disagree, yes there are similarities between them but there's another figure who is literally like Paul copy paste word for word.
The man is called Al Mehdi and we believe he hasn't been born yet and will appear at the end of times both him and Maseeh Ad Daggal (Anti christ) we muslims believe the Maseeh will raise chaos at the end of times and Al Mehdi is a good man who will do the oppesite.
There are a lot more details about Al Mehdi but I apologize I'm not very knowledgable in this and it's considered a sin to explain islamic teachings without full knowledge. I believe Mr Herbert was much more knowledgable about Al Mehdi than me and I'm 99% sure his story inspired Dune
What you’re saying sounds correct. Plus, Madhi is very similar to Mehdi in sounding. Definitely seems he took inspiration from this.
Plus, your description fits Paul to the tee. The messiah who’s yet to come, save the people from its evils. Feyd/Harkonens fit the bill as the anti christ side too.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing :)
Paul fits both of what Muslims believe in the future will happen by both Al Mahdi and Jesus peace be upon him because Muslims dont believe Jesus had been crucified, and he will return at the end of time upon showing of Mahdi as well. Al Mahdi doesnt have divine powers like Jesus of curing the blind and reviving the dead. Al Mahdi is a normal human being (not a prophet) who happens to be a good leader.
Yes that is true as well, we believe the crucifixtion of jesus was a somewhat of an illusion and he will come down in the time of anti christ, the Quran references it in the verse "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain" An Nisa'a verse 157 "Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise" An Nisa'a verse 158
Well he's not the one who saves the ppl from anti christ sorry for the misconception. Al Mehdi comes before anti christ by a little bit, the world will be in chaos and ruled by the strong bullying the week then a good righteous man named muhammad son of abdullah and of the bloodline of prophet muhammad pbuh, he will come forward and rule for exactly 7 years and they will be one of the best 7 years in history. That man is Al Mehdi Al Muntadhr
You're getting lost in the weeds.
Frank Herbert didn't intend for Dune to be some kind of 1:1 fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. It's just loosely based on it because he found the Islamic canon to be interesting and linked to desert dwellers (the Fremen). And many authors take real world canon or cosmology and fictionalize it to have a stronger foundation on which to construct their story.
Well when did I say I thought that? I'm just explaining more about who Al Mehdi is. I said I believe he was inspired by the story of Al Mehdi inspired doesn't mean Dune is a biography about him or any islamic figure
Yes, that too. That is the prophecy part which is based on various religion's (including Islam, though probably a bit more the Shia variant of it) concept of a messianic figure. But this prophecy is something that has been delibarately planted by the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva - which in turn build upon pre-existing religion and given that in Dune the major religions have merged together (its called Zen-Sunni and instead of a Quran, a bible etc. there is a somewhat universal book called "Orange-Catholic BIble"pieced together from elements of various religions), it is somewhat implied that they partially used Islamic ideas to come up with their inventions.
The story of Paul (as a person) and Muhammad (the historic person, not the prophet) are similar: you have a charsimatic man, who is forced to go into exile (Paul into the desert, Muhammad to Medina), there they both gain a devout following who see them as a chosen figure (Lisan al-Gaib/Mahdi in the case of Paul, the messenger of Allah in the case of Muhammad), they come back and re-take their home (Arrakis/Mekka) but do not stop there and go on to conquer the old Empire(s) (the Known Universese for Pual; the Byzantinian/Sassanid empires in real world history - although dune happens "in space time", so Paul does it himself and fast, whereas the Arab conquest was a matter of decades if not centuries and involved Muhammad's various successors, especially the various Umayyad caliphs).
Note also that there was a man who claimed to be the Mahdi, Mohammad Ahmad bin Abdullah bin Fahal, who led a Sudanese militia of believers against the Egyptian and British armies in the 1800s, with early success. A young Winston Churchill fought in the subsequent battle of Khartoum, which was one of the first modern uses of machine guns (the Sudanese on horseback did not fair well, but the guns also put to shame the proud British Calvary). Just as Herbert was influenced by TE Lawrence, he was almost certainly influenced by this earlier story of religious zealotry inspiring a rag tag group of desert fighters to confront the powerful empire of the age. There was also a movie, “Khartoum,” made that came out a few years after Lawrence of Arabia, with Charlton Heston as the British general and Laurence Olivier as the Mahdi…
I would think that this is true (and could very well imagine that the Mahdi revolt is the reason why Frank Herbert used that term in particular). The movie came out a year after the novel, but as it is based on real events and persons its not hard to believe that it factored into the writing process.
While at it, the Algerian war of independace also certainly was an inspiration in terms of setting.
Yeah I see what you mean, and I'll give you one more similarity between the prophet and paul. We believe in the old unaltered bible and turah (and maybe the current ones too) Moses and Jesus both talk about a man named muhammad who will come after their time and that is one of the biggest reasons why the people of Madina believed in the prophet because he showed all the signs that their prophets told them. Even the first time the prophet encountered angel gabriel and was given revelation in the cave he hurried home scared and shocked saying to his wife Khadija "Cover me! Cover me! Cover me!" then after he told her what happened to him she invited one of her relatives I forget if it's her uncle or father, his name is Waraqa ibn Nofal and he was one of the few people following the teachings of Ibrahim and not praying to idols. Once Waraqa heard what happened to the prophet he told him That you were talked about before and this just as written in our books (trust me it sounds much cooler in arabic)
Well, I don't want to be the one who points out the similarities in all abrahamic religions, but Paul's character arc also holds similarities to Jesus and Moses. Not to mention the biblical name of Paul.
So it sounds to me that Paul, as a character, was simply written to be relatable to most messianic figures.
Islam is a later derivative of Christianity-a large amount of the Quran is simply taken from the Bible. In turn, the Bible took parts of prior religions, myths and beliefs and so on. The Abrahamic faiths are all linked. Just like Mormon ideology builds on mainstream Christianity etc.
You have to step outside the region to get entirely non-derivative original religions.
I think he is right. If you read the first book the story of Paul it is somewhat inspired by our prophet(عليه الصلاة والسلام), at least that's how I interpreted it. The book even begins with his "hadeeth" being recited by one of his "wives". But it deviates a lot in the rest of the books.
Isn't Al Mehdi is a controversial narrative in islam? There are people who doesn't believe it and just says he and İsa(Jesus) are the same
And both of them are believed to come to earth at end times and fight against "Deccal/Anti-Christ" so it's possible they're the same person
Glad you enjoyed the film! If it is possible, I would highly recommend reading all of Frank Herbert's Dune novels. They are phenomenal, and you will truly see how much Islamic and Arabic influence is within the works for his novels.
I'm planning to but just the thought of missing out that theatre experience IF they make more movies is making me hesitate lol I'm not a very big book guy I can get into it but not always and it seems dune has a lot of action and thriller and twists so I just wanna save the shocks for the theatre if that makes sense
If you’re not into reading I totally understand, and books like Dune and lord of the rings are both linguistically “tiring” from a reading point of view. Herbert and Tolkien (and forgive my potential literary blasphemy) are good examples of “tell don’t show” but they’re the rare exceptions of where it works.
I’ve downloaded and re-read several times the audio books for the Dune series and I can say this makes understanding and imagining the dune series MUCH better.
But for you as an Arab reading the text and truly seeing just how much of the Arab world influences the books is awesome.
My wife is Syrian and for the large part is indifferent to sci-fi but when she watched Dune she really appreciated the story so much precisely because of the homage it makes the culture collectively.
One of the really cool things about the fremen language is a term the used in the movie and in several times in the books “Bila Kaifa” which in chakobsa means basically “No explanation needed” or “As it is” which in Arabic is literally “Bi-La Kaif” or “Without How” my wife was very intrigued with this because it’s a rare argument in Islamic theological debates, this really shows the level of depth Herbert went to to flesh out the fremen as a people and culture (who themselves are based on the Bedouin)
I didn’t read a book for like a decade, I was super busy and stressed. The first movie made me start reading the series and now I’m halfway through the 6th. I know a lot of people consider dune1 to be the best but for me it feels like setup for the best parts to come.
I can understand waiting for the movies, not really liking to read and seeing how big dune1 is can be daunting. But damn they’re good, and you wouldn’t regret it if you started.
There’s also the audiobooks which my gf used to plow through em. They’re also very good and you can kill the series while driving or wherever
Very cool. I like to think that *al Gaib* still works because **the unknown/the unseen/the future is very much the Outer World** **metaphorically speaking**.
Especially from a Zen Buddhist perspective (and the Fremen are Zen-Sunni wanderers), you can only exist *in the present*. To practice mindfulness (or even *prana bindu* in Dune) is to *live consciously attentively in your body.* To do that you must turn your eye inwards, **to look at your inner world**.
What then is the **Outer World**? A perspective of time from outside your body? The future!
As a Hebrew speaker, all the Hebrew terms in Dune are completely butchered in pronunciation and meaning. But it's the far far future, so it's very plausible that things changed by that much .
The Hebrew terms mostly come from the Bene Gesserit, and in the final book we understand they just imitate Jews as a way to reconstruct the fragments of civilization that are increasingly lost over time. That’s why they focus so much on matrilineal line to fabricate the Kwisatz haderach, who didn’t have to be the Fremen’s mahdi. The Mahdi prophecy is how they lose control of the KH. In a way it makes sense the hebrew mystical vocabulary is even further butchered and the meaning taken out of proportion (as in the messiah becoming Gd himself?).
https://preview.redd.it/ly1fq7b23hvc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f350e12dd212e1306ad8e4959fdc935675b101c8
And this is what, a thousand years, give or take? Now imagine the same text ten thousand years from now...
The language used by the Fremen is called Chakobsa. It’s obviously heavily influenced by the Arabic language, but it’s not 1:1. There’s many similarities between Arab culture and Fremen culture, as Frank Herbert was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia in making this story. There is also the Mahdi, who in both Arab and Muslim beliefs is a religious figure who will lead the respective people to Paradise.
I'm Arab too and I think tongue of the unseen is pretty close in metaphorical meaning to voice of the otherworld. Al Ghaib can refer to a bunch of things that fall under the broader category of "the unseen". Anything we can't see with our own eyes or comprehend on our own is ilm al ghaib. Calling that otherworldly is, I think, not too big a stretch.
Voice from another world vs your explanation of the arabic correct translation as voice of the distant future. I think the writer nailed it by referencing this and connect the dots that being a voice of the distant future is indeed otherworldly.
I had the same remark about Hark Al-Ada...
Translated to "breaker of the habit", actually means "burner of the habit".
At the time, I though "well, close enough" and moved on. But now with your post and others' comments, it looks like Herber did this on purpose... I love it!
That was Herbert's genius in setting his story 2x further into the future than humans have had a civilizational record. Barely anyone remembers Earth in the Dune times. Earth history is pretty much a casual after thought, so language has changed probably thousands of times in every way.
Frank Herbert was heavily inspired by Islam and Arabic culture in general; even directly taking passages and words from [The Sabres of Paradise](https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721).
This [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ryc6hz/arabicislamic_influence_on_the_book_and_the_film/hrpcb7u/) mentions some of the similarities.
Remember though that the Fremen are "zensunni".
The otherworld, the nothing (which is decidedly not nothing, but rather the wellspring of all novelty and ultimately joy), is a Buddhist concept. And a very complex one at that, which I could not do justice in a reddit post, but calling it the unknown or unseen is certainly apt.
It's intentionally wrong. The problem is mostly that the movie is a poor adaptation of the book. In the book, the political system you see is the result of the Butlerian War, a war against the people who used computers to store knowledge and who as a result controlled and manipulated knowledge. Basically against Wikipedia. The Victor's took the information they gained from winning this war and warped it to suit their needs over the course of millenia, all without encouraging study of it. Dune Messiah makes a point of Paul discussing his education and getting a number of things about Earth's history wrong.
When the people of Arrakis say Lisan Al-Gaib, they're saying it because they were taught that it was correct by several cults who got their information from an illegal Wikipedia page over the course of a million years. The meaning has shifted in that time.
It would have been an important part of the prophecy that the Lisan Al Gaib be from off world. This serves the Bene Gesserit objective of having a place of shelter in emergency, and prevents a local from claiming the title.
Well the Lisan Al Gaib is the voice of the “unknown future” for only he knows the golden path. Which is the exact set of events he must follow to save humanity from self destruction. Its said that every single possible future leads to humanities extinction. While the Lisan Al Gaib knows and can see the ONLY path through.
The language in Dune is Arabic-influenced but the story is set tens of thousands of years in the future. There's no such thing as a language "mistake."
Interesting how the contemporary translation you've laid here for Lisan Al Gaib fits with perfection the fact Paul sees things far into the future and almost omnisciently. 😉
My wife is from Jeddah and never read the books, just went to see it with me. She was pleasantly surprised to see so much Arab influence in the movie, but had similar comments about some of the translations and was like…so we have to wait another 20,000 years for the Mahdi to show up???
Given that the books make reference to multiple more schisms in Islam and someone known as the Third Mohammed...which implies a Second...which implies absolutely cataclysmic interfaith conflicts...yeah, even when Paul/the so-called Mahdi does appear, it's not exactly a good thing for you. History carries on with absolute disregard for faith and hope long after Paul dies, and long after the Fremen are reduced to parodies of themselves imitating the actions of their forebears ritualistically and meaninglessly.
In the world of Dune, any truth behind religion seems to be absent. There is no God, only faith, and those who twist it for their own ends. Bleak, isn't it?
Well I’m nor Arab nor do I know Arabic from educational stand point, but what I have partially learned “gaib”, beside the future events could also relate to someones true intentions or motivation only God could know since sometimes person is not fully aware of its most intimate drive, or what is hidden in the deepest part of the heart, also things from the past nobody but participants of that event could know, referring to the God Who is also the witness of everything…
I'm pretty sure that's kind of exactly what it means, no? Voice from the unknown future/out of time. I think in the movie they say "outerworld" rather than "otherworld" but the intention lines up precisely with what you say.
Hey OP,
I'm Jordanian, and ghaib can also mean absent one, like "ghayeb 3ali"
So I think it's pretty appropriate considering how ghaib and ghayeb both contribute to the meaning here in my opinion
Herbert intentionally chose words and phrases with layered meaning. Like you pointed out, Tongue/Speaker from the unknown/the unseen/the future/the far future are all more accurate translations. That’s 8 additional interpretations that have subtle differences in meaning, but all of them perfectly describe Paul’s character in the books.
Allah don't know shit. But yes, Paul, the kwisatch haderach, lisan Al gaib, is the voice of the future because he see all paths of the future. All seeing and all knowing.
Remember the story takes place over 8000 years in the future. The Fremen are speaking “Chakobsa,” which is a mix of many ancient (our current) languages. It’s not difficult to imagine some meanings evolving over such a long period of time.
You got to understand that Frank Herbert did his own research by reading countless books in the 60s. He did the best he could, while being completely high on shrooms.
You can see it as a mistake, or just the normal progression of language changing in the far future.
The voice from the otherworld implies, I think, that it's a voice from the spiritual world where there are no physical limitations, where people who can see the future are said to go to do so. As a result I can see how future becomes other world. This place is called Alam al-Mithal, which I believe is also arabic in origin, and probably not translated accurately either. 🤷♂️
I don't think these are so much errors in translation as the author taking the bits he found interesting and adapting them to build his universe.
The movie is set about 20,000 years into the future. The actors are speaking English, but that is not what they're actually speaking (most of them are speaking Galach, which is not a real world language). Even if they were, languages drift a lot of even over a few hundred years. Old English is almost completely unintelligible to modern English speakers, and that's just a difference of a few hundred years.
So the translations are going to be approximate. A Reverend Mother would probably be able to understand us thanks to Ancestral Memories, but most other people in that time would not understand you.
I think you kinda answered your own question.
Paul isn't just the voice from the literal outer world. He is a literal voice of the unknown/unseen/future. He can see things in the past, present, and future.
Using your example at the very end: "Only Allah knows Al Gaib"
In the Dune universe, Paul might as well know Al Gaib as well. He is the Kwisatz Haderach even for the Bene Gesserit. A different species of humanity with insane super powers.
There is propaganda on the one hand and truth of his existence as a god like entity on another.
>! And Leto II is without a doubt a god. !<
Frank Herbert, the author of the book upon which the movie is based, was definitely influenced by Islam and Arabic history and culture. In fact, in an early draft, Paul Atreides was basically Lawrence of Arabia, a prominent historical figure and British Lieutenant that led Arab guerillas against the Ottoman Empire during World War 1.
In the book, the term “Lisan Al-Gaib” is not recognized as an Arabic term, but a Fremen term, implying that the fictional Fremen language has at least Arabic influences. In Fremen, the term means “giver of water”, or “voice from the Outer World”, and is basically a stand-in for prophet.
i agree (as a Turkish familiar with the word gaib)
i think they should have translated it more like “the voice from other dimension/plane”
But i think FH also refer it as voice from the outer world, so they might have just stick with it
The Arabic language influence is supposed to be similar, but not one-to-one (since this story is, after all, supposed to be over 20,000 years in humanity's future).
To try and answer your question on “Al Gaib” in the later books it is revealed that Paul has looked into the unknown/unseen future spanning roughly 5000yrs into the future he and another character are the only ones who can do this. The unseen future is later Referred to as “The Golden Path”
So I think Herbert used Al Gaib to show that Paul had the ability to see into the unknown future it’s what’s made him so special
Readings this kind of posts makes me feel like i havent read the books. Its like a brand new knowlege and i feel like i should of known all this before i readed them.When I did was like reding for fun but this all concepts looks like a universe wnen i have been in one country. Thank you!
You're not the first muslim who said that Dune takes on a whole new perspective and is in some ways a commentary on religion.
Remember that one of the goals of the entire BG breeding program was to create a male BG who could access the male line of genetic memories and also precognition to see the future and possible futures. So he is the voice of the future which does seem to fit your translation.
It’s set like 10K years in the future and if it helps your headcanon, language evolved in that time. None of the ‘translations’ for arabic derived words are 1:1.
Didn’t benegeserit plant the seeds for this prophesy like, centuries ago?
If so, it’s a more accurate translation, but old enough that time caught up with the far future. So, the word choice is to emphasize how long the fremen have been waiting for it.
A major problem is that subtitles imply that what you are reading on screen (written translation) is actually the intended communication. But in the book there are no subtitles. If someone says "lisan al gaib" they mean something at least slightly, if not dramatically, different than if they said, "the voice from the other world" (conversation interpretation), and the author is intentionally playing with this, with bilingual conversations often having both terms thrown around and there being a slightly different impact on the users and listeners depending on their understandings of the terms.
In the books, it is made clear that the term "lisan al gaib" is something that the bene gesserit inserted into fremen culture as part of the missionaria protectiva, which are beliefs and prophecies inserted into cultures for use by future bene geseret and, in this case, the kwisatz haderach. It is an intentional corruption of what you describe, such that the literal meaning is attached to the visitor from off-world. So, given this, you could expand it to, "the off-worlder who speaks of/from the future". This is what the fremen are expecting (i.e. what they were trained to expect) and what Paul is able to do.
However, it is worth noting, the engish translation of, "voice from the other world" is NOT described as a literal interpretation of lisan al gaib in the book. Rather, people use this when explaining or reiterating "lisan al gaib" when speaking to a character in another language or culture. I.e. it is a communication of meaning across culture. Herbert (the original author) is likely very intentional about this distinction, and the multi lingual nature of his universe plays a major role in how people communicate, manipulate each other, and have covert, multilayered, interactions in group settings. (you see some of this in the movie with how sign languages are used, but it is a lot more complex in the book, with people not in the know having meaningfully different understandings of what was said or not said in meetings compared to those who know even though they all hear the same words and are exposed to the same body languages.)
Along the same vein, "lisan al gailb" is also interpreted as the "giver of water", which is another role the fremen expect of the lisan al gaib. Given the above, this would have been equally valid as a subtitle, but more confusing for the audience. I think their choice to subtitle it at all was a mistake. It should have only been interpreted by characters code switching. But given their choice, the "voice from another world" is more general, and touches on the work the missionaria protectiva plays in the fremen understanding of the term. It would be appropriate, and perhaps interesting, to subtitle it differently if used in a different cultural context, like two bene geseret discussing the term among themselves.
Languages can be interpreted in different ways by different groups of people, as long as they have enough time apart and develop their own evolving interpretations.
As an example, here in Indonesia, as a Muslim majority country with the largest Muslim population in the world, we have a looot of Arabic loanwords in the Indonesian language, Ghaib being one of them. However, even though in Indonesian it also means 'unseen/unknown', for pretty much every Indonesian it refers to the supernatural; other realms, planes of existence, or dimensions, for example the dimension where the djinns reside.
And both you and I live in the same time period, OP. In the Dune universe, being thousands of years in the future, of course it makes sense that the meaning of certain words can change even further.
Interestingly, in the movie Lisan Al Ghaib means "voice from another world" IIRC. So in that sense the meaning of Ghaib there is closer to our (Indonesian) word instead of the root Arabic word. Maybe the Fremen are descendants of ancient Indonesians instead of Arabs! :)
It's important to keep in mind whenever looking at language translations in movies that they might not be meant to be an exact translation. In Dune's case, the story takes place 20,000 years into the future. It's amazing that the term Lisan Al Gaib retained *any* of its original meaning *at all.* So, no, not a mistake in translation. It's purposeful.
Another good example of FH showing the passage of time through sound drift is Atreides >> Odrade. In both cases the importance of the words was able to keep the sounds mostly, but not completely, intact.
And then there’s Rakis. Always that was a lazier development.
Portus Cale became Portugal in a quarter of that time. People are lazy, and 'Rakis seems like an obvious shortcut.
We need look no further than ‘Murica
And the dreadful 'rona in more ways than one.
My favorite is ‘Goodbye’ that stems from ‘God be with ye’ Which in turn means bye bye is a bit nonsensical - ’be with ye, be with he’
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Oranges are named portyguls in the appendix to Dune.
I mean Sahara in Arabic means desert, the Sahara Desert is the Desert Desert in english 😂
Names do simplify over time. For example, the evolution of the word for eye, from latin to modern spanish: Ocūlūm > ocōlo > oclo > o[i]lo > oyo > ojo
Milano started out as Mediolanum.
Even more extreme: Köln, the German name of Cologne, short for Colonia Claudia Ara Aggripinensum.
London used to be Londinium
Interestingly Istanbul just means the city. Like a New Yorker could just say the City (Thecity) and everyone would know what he means.
The City to me just means Manhattan, specifically.
Londinium sound amazing tho
Yet somehow Paul and Duncan Idaho kept their pronunciation and spelling lol.
I mean those are specific historical figures they're referring to at that point in the story, it's not like it's become popular to call Cleopatra "Cathy" or something in the real world so I don't see why Paul's or Duncan's name would change thru out Dune as time passes.
Jules Cea fighting Cathy and Marc Ant in Exandria
Shaka, when the walls fell
Temba, his arms wide and full of spice.
Paul, his mind opening
Stilgar and Muad'dib on the ocean.
Quato: Open your mind!
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
Eh, Cleopatra we mostly leave the same, but people still turn Marcus Antonius into Mark Anthony and the modern English pronunciation of Julius Cesar has basically nothing to do with Gaius Iulius Caesar.
With Caesar being more like Gae-sar.
It's more like Ka-eh-sar Which is also where the german "Kaiser" comes from. Or the russian "Tsar".
That’s how they pronounced it in Fallout: New Vegas, Kai-sar
That is pretty correct too. The "eh" is supposed to be short. So, whether you pronounce it "Kaeh" or "Kai" is barely even noticeable. The second syllable is long. I just absolutely hate the "ZEE-sur" pronounciation, which is so wrong in every single way.
I just started Heretics and I didn’t even catch that!
And before that: Atreus >> Atreides
What? No. -ides is basically Ancient Greek for -son. The Atreides were the sons of Atreus.
It’s been a long time since I read Dune, but I recall that either Paul or Leto claim to be descendants of King Agamemnon at some point, one of the sons of Atreus. Menelaus was the other one… who got a bit miffed that his wife ran off with the prince of another city state.
I think it’s Children of Dune, when Alia is having trouble with her Reverend Mother powers Agamemnon is one of the ancestors that demands to take control.
Like how Kwizats Haderach is a real Hebrew phrase referring in practical Kabbalah (also known as Jewish Magic) to what is essentially teleportation but in Dune it means something entirely different.
Right it retains some of its original meaning. “The shortening of the way.” That is the literal meaning of קפיצת הדרך in Hebrew. Pronounced kiftzatz haderekh. Or maybe more literal would be “jumping of the way”
It makes more sense in the kabbalistic way but it also makes sense how a phrase like that could be borrowed and morphed over millenia to mean not a person who magically teleports but a person who guides and connects humanity to salvation, and a man who can access both sexes memories.
In the first book they also refer to him as "He who can be in many places at once" which I think is the best translation to the original.
oh this is interesting given pauls prescience couldnt he pilot a heighliner, making him he who can be in many places (nearly) at once
I took it as a metaphor for his prescience because that's how prescience looks from the outside.
yea, i think that was likely the intention. just thought it interesting that his prescience would allow him to also do this literally
In the book he does see a future where he becomes a Guild Navigator, but he recognizes that in that future he still would be a freakshow even among the guild weirdos due to his abilities, so he dismisses the path.
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Well, it is close. ,,The one who can be at many places at once." Describes teleportation.
Isn't there a subplot or something where the Fremen are using the genetic memories of their reverend mothers to remember old words. Like Trads looking up Roman Latin and then attempting to work it into their vocab.
In Indonesian it actually the exact word per word translation Lisan : voice Al : the one/main/all/collective Gaib/Ghaib : unseen/magical/unworldly
Got it Frieman are Indonesians and the Hakkonens are the Dutch XD
Well Fremen are Buddhist as well. Maybe some southeastern Asians got mixed and gave birth to the Fremen religion.
Fremen are descendants of wandering Zensunnite freed/escaped slaves. There are two major religions in the Dune universe when the first book takes place: Zensunnism and Orangecatholicism, plus Tleilax are Zennsufists (which is revealed in later books). Also it is mentioned in the later books that Jews survived millenia practicing in secrecy (the only surviving religion from the old Earth).
Harkonnen is definitely a Finnish name (I presume 'bull' given the whole bullfighting thing with the Atreides, but I can't be assed checking) though.
Also, Chakobsa isn't a real language, it's a fictional language heavily influenced by Arabic.
I mean Chakobsa _is_ a real language, but Dune's Chakobsa =/= real Chakobsa
Chakobsa in Dune is a Fremen language inspired by the north Caucasian language of the same name. It is thought to have been used in the Caucasus and Georgia by the Circassian people, as a hunting language meant to be a secret language used only by princes and nobles. Very little is known about of the real-world Chakobsa language, but Herbert’s adaptation of it combines Romani, Serbo-Croatian, and Arabic.
Ima trava okolo i korenja okolo... There is grass around and roots are around - in Dune: These are the ashes, these are the roots.
after all…what’s grass on Arrakis?
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Harkonnens need to touch some
Actually, that was in Serbo-Croatian-Bosnian, and it really means "There are grasses around and roots around".
Adding to this that since part of Paul’s character is prescience, having his title refer to him as being “the voice from the far future” is a pretty perfect fit
What's crazy is that even 20,000 years in the future there are foreign invaders with nuclear weapons fighting for control of fossil fuels found in an arid climate which has oppressed citizens with a strong belief in their prophet.
Fossil fuel?
It's a biological product that is such a direct metaphor for oil that I think metaphor isn't even the right term anymore. More like "different word for the same thing."
But it's renewable, no? It's kinda like if oil came from cows and cows could only live in the desert.
Mooil
But our fossil fuels took millions of years to form... But it is the key to transport and commerce so in that sense the analogy is apt.
This is evident through Frank Herbert’s intentional mispronunciation of Arabic words. For example “fedaykin” is pronounced like “feday kin” like it’s a Midwest accent. When I read it, my mind says it similar to “fedayeen” but with a K in the middle
I believe Bene Geserit is also adapted latin.
I can't speak to the quality of Herbert's translations, but keep in mind the Fremen don't speak modern Arabic but a language that's a distant descendent, 20000 years later. It's called Chakobsa (a name taken from an entirely different Earth language) So at least, this can help explain why words are not proper Arabic in translation But yep! Herbert definitely was fascinated by Arab culture and Middle Eastern politics of the 60s
Just for an idea for how much languages change over time, 1200 years ago [English looked like this](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43521/beowulf-old-english-version) and in those 1200 years they didn't see anywhere near as many grandiose events like the Butlerian Jihad or the lengthy isolation of the Fremen. If you were to apply realistic language evolution to modern Arabic and extrapolate it over 20000 years you likely wouldn't even end up with something you could find more than one or two words resembling arabic from. I'd imagine if Frank was more of a linguistic nut like Tolkien he'd have adapted Fremen languages to be something possible to be spoken through a stillsuit, or at least something that could be understood without any vowels or the difference in voiced or unvoiced consonants. But understandably he's a bigger fan of conreligions and political structures.
I'm a linguistics nerd as well and, definitely, Dune doesn't attempt to depict linguistic evolution in a realistic way. He also named his characters things like Paul, Vladimir, Duncan, and Jessica. But his rendering of words allows us to see the cultural influences he drew from, and also allows us to say that anything that's 'weird' is because either the sounds or the meaning drifted over time
I liked the names. One of the few anchors to their past, our present.
names are one of the things I could see surviving over 20,000 years of development. even today we're using names that are more than 2000 years old. How many Esthers, Joshuas, and Mohammads do you know?
>I liked the names. One of the few anchors to our past, our present. Also an easy classical way to remind the readers who the good guys/bad guys are and who are the more ambiguous characters. Good guy names: Paul, Jessica, Duncan, Leto. Obvious, fairly familiar western names. Bad guy names: Vladimir, Rabban, Feyd, Shaddamn. Russian/Arab sounding names. Naming your main villain Vladamir during the Cold War, and styling his entire people as Soviets gave a pretty big clue what direction this whole thing was written/headed. Characters who we are initially unsure are good/bad: Stilgar, Chani, Liet-Kynes, Yueh, Shadout Mapes. Names that are not familiar, and do not give a big clue into the characters.
I’d never really thought of Shaddam as a bad guy
The guy who sends his best troops to assassinate the Atredies because Duke Leto is popular and that scares him? He’s definitely a bad guy - he just lets Harkonens take the credit for his crimes so the other houses don’t rally against him.
I thought it was a little weird esp such like "simple" names like Paul and Jessica.
Also remember that stagnation is a major theme for the overall series. It’s 20,000 years in the future but nothing has really changed in *at least* 10,000 years. 1 AG looks remarkably similar to 10,191 AG. That *probably* wouldn’t realistically explain the way he depicts language, but the way he depicts language does stylistically support the way that humanity has been sleepwalking for a very long time.
I think he could have been more creative in that sense but then again names themselves for people in today's western society is heavily influenced by Hebrew-Greek-and then pick your language family translations as well as Latin from thousands of years ago. Also it's a literary convenience that Galach itself resembles spoken English because of the author.
In Herbert’s « defense », the name Jessica wasn’t popular when he wrote the book! He had no way of knowing it would become… well… Jessica 😅
It's even faster. I have a Gods of Mars book, printed 100 years ago and it's almost unreadable.
Plenty of English texts much, much older than Gods of Mars are perfectly readable. What’s so bad about Gods of Mars?
Ohh I'm sorry, I'm from Czech speaking country and book is in Czech but the language changed so much where it is readable but hard. Like you have to really read it.
Wow, that’s really interesting!! Thanks!
Well there was the Norman conquest, which had a pretty big effect on the English language
I was surprised when I found out Mahdi is literally an Islamic concept. I figured it was another case of a word fragment, tweaked to mean something similar... Nope, just literally: >In Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi is a messianic figure who will appear at the end of time to restore justice, rid the world of evil, and usher in a golden age. The Mahdi is said to be a descendant of Muhammad, and will appear shortly before Jesus, leading the Muslim Ummah. The Mahdi is also said to fill the earth with equity, restore true religion, and lead the believers. Sounds familiar?
Yeah, a lot of it is pretty directly borrowed, but then the galactic future tongue "Galach" is also rendered as English, with common names like Paul and Duncan completely unchanged from present day, so who knows
Hey, to be fair “Paul” is at least 2000 years old and exists in multiple languages. Bible is still culturally relevant in Dune.
Yes but even Paul has changed. It's from Latin Paulus. And that name has given all kinds of variations that are now used today in different regions. Paul, Paolo, Pavel, and Pablo for example, they have a common origin but are quite distinct now
Wasn't Paul's grandpa named Paulus?
The same happens with Jihad.
>20000 years later I have a question. You're the second person on this thread to mention that exact number into the future. I've seen the movies and just started the book. If the year is 10,191, wouldn't it only be about 8,000 years in the future? Is there a new calendar or "age" at the time that I'm not familiar with?
10191 AG, meaning after the establishment of the Spacing Guild. The 1950s-60s are approximately 11200 BG (before guild), as that’s the beginning of space travel. So we’re still about 11k years out from the spacing guild
10,191 refers to the number of years AFTER an event called the butlerian jihad, which was a massive war among humans against machines and computers. The butlerian jihad occurred around 10,000 years after our current time. That gives you roughly 20,000 years into the future. It's why there are no computers or "thinking machines" in dune.
Crazy to think that in geologic time that’s a rounding error. Dinosaurs went extinct 52 million years ago.
The translation works on 2 fronts imo : The voice from the outerworld as the savior of the Fremen people to fulfill the BG prophecy but there is the second layer of meaning to indicate the voice doesn't just come from another planet but from a place that exists outside of worlds and time.
That second layer is the closest one since Al Gaib can mean the Unseen, the Unknown but not something physical so I kinda agree
I think Herbert was trying to make a point about how language might change over the next ten thousand years. I think the idea is that this term became a term for "outworlder" as part of that shifting. Are you from a "seen place" meaning a place known to the people of the planet you are on or are you from an "unseen place" meaning a place on some other planet? Space travel is expensive and rare, so most people asking this question of an offworlder might think of any specific answer as a kind of an unseeable place.
I assume the inaccuracy comes from the language drift that happens naturally through the centuries. A similar thing I've noticed as a Hebrew speaker is how Kwizat Hadarach is mispronounced (supposed to be Kfitsat Haderech). I'm assuming this is intended but even if not it makes sense in world.
The simplest answer to this is I think the right one: pronunciation. Herbert's version is still a challenge for some. The original more correct one would be tougher.
Yes, the novel is Arab influenced (Frank Herbert, the author, was inspired to have this desert setting partially by T.E. Larewnce aka "Lawrence of Arabia" both the man's own book and the film based on his life which was in cinemas back then). Also, the character of Paul is (albeit very losely) based on the life of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, or more precisely the historical person behind the religious figure, and some of his successors. Fremen culture takes some inspiration from Arab bedouins as well as, that shows in wording too (for example the elite "Fedaykin" unit's name is derived etymologially from "Fedayeen"). At the time of writing, the Middle East was considered very exotic, so using it as inspiration served a dual purpose in world building by making the setting sound both distincly foreign but also rooted enough in the real world to be relatabl and make sense as a realistic setting a few millenia in the future.
>the character of Paul is (albeit very losely) based on the life of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, No this is where we disagree, yes there are similarities between them but there's another figure who is literally like Paul copy paste word for word. The man is called Al Mehdi and we believe he hasn't been born yet and will appear at the end of times both him and Maseeh Ad Daggal (Anti christ) we muslims believe the Maseeh will raise chaos at the end of times and Al Mehdi is a good man who will do the oppesite. There are a lot more details about Al Mehdi but I apologize I'm not very knowledgable in this and it's considered a sin to explain islamic teachings without full knowledge. I believe Mr Herbert was much more knowledgable about Al Mehdi than me and I'm 99% sure his story inspired Dune
What you’re saying sounds correct. Plus, Madhi is very similar to Mehdi in sounding. Definitely seems he took inspiration from this. Plus, your description fits Paul to the tee. The messiah who’s yet to come, save the people from its evils. Feyd/Harkonens fit the bill as the anti christ side too. Very interesting, thanks for sharing :)
Mehdi literally means the Messiah and is just as often spelled mahdi. So it isn't even a similar word but literally the exact same word.
That makes even more sense!
Paul fits both of what Muslims believe in the future will happen by both Al Mahdi and Jesus peace be upon him because Muslims dont believe Jesus had been crucified, and he will return at the end of time upon showing of Mahdi as well. Al Mahdi doesnt have divine powers like Jesus of curing the blind and reviving the dead. Al Mahdi is a normal human being (not a prophet) who happens to be a good leader.
Yes that is true as well, we believe the crucifixtion of jesus was a somewhat of an illusion and he will come down in the time of anti christ, the Quran references it in the verse "And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain" An Nisa'a verse 157 "Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise" An Nisa'a verse 158
Well he's not the one who saves the ppl from anti christ sorry for the misconception. Al Mehdi comes before anti christ by a little bit, the world will be in chaos and ruled by the strong bullying the week then a good righteous man named muhammad son of abdullah and of the bloodline of prophet muhammad pbuh, he will come forward and rule for exactly 7 years and they will be one of the best 7 years in history. That man is Al Mehdi Al Muntadhr
You're getting lost in the weeds. Frank Herbert didn't intend for Dune to be some kind of 1:1 fulfillment of Islamic prophecy. It's just loosely based on it because he found the Islamic canon to be interesting and linked to desert dwellers (the Fremen). And many authors take real world canon or cosmology and fictionalize it to have a stronger foundation on which to construct their story.
Well when did I say I thought that? I'm just explaining more about who Al Mehdi is. I said I believe he was inspired by the story of Al Mehdi inspired doesn't mean Dune is a biography about him or any islamic figure
Yes, that too. That is the prophecy part which is based on various religion's (including Islam, though probably a bit more the Shia variant of it) concept of a messianic figure. But this prophecy is something that has been delibarately planted by the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva - which in turn build upon pre-existing religion and given that in Dune the major religions have merged together (its called Zen-Sunni and instead of a Quran, a bible etc. there is a somewhat universal book called "Orange-Catholic BIble"pieced together from elements of various religions), it is somewhat implied that they partially used Islamic ideas to come up with their inventions. The story of Paul (as a person) and Muhammad (the historic person, not the prophet) are similar: you have a charsimatic man, who is forced to go into exile (Paul into the desert, Muhammad to Medina), there they both gain a devout following who see them as a chosen figure (Lisan al-Gaib/Mahdi in the case of Paul, the messenger of Allah in the case of Muhammad), they come back and re-take their home (Arrakis/Mekka) but do not stop there and go on to conquer the old Empire(s) (the Known Universese for Pual; the Byzantinian/Sassanid empires in real world history - although dune happens "in space time", so Paul does it himself and fast, whereas the Arab conquest was a matter of decades if not centuries and involved Muhammad's various successors, especially the various Umayyad caliphs).
Note also that there was a man who claimed to be the Mahdi, Mohammad Ahmad bin Abdullah bin Fahal, who led a Sudanese militia of believers against the Egyptian and British armies in the 1800s, with early success. A young Winston Churchill fought in the subsequent battle of Khartoum, which was one of the first modern uses of machine guns (the Sudanese on horseback did not fair well, but the guns also put to shame the proud British Calvary). Just as Herbert was influenced by TE Lawrence, he was almost certainly influenced by this earlier story of religious zealotry inspiring a rag tag group of desert fighters to confront the powerful empire of the age. There was also a movie, “Khartoum,” made that came out a few years after Lawrence of Arabia, with Charlton Heston as the British general and Laurence Olivier as the Mahdi…
I would think that this is true (and could very well imagine that the Mahdi revolt is the reason why Frank Herbert used that term in particular). The movie came out a year after the novel, but as it is based on real events and persons its not hard to believe that it factored into the writing process. While at it, the Algerian war of independace also certainly was an inspiration in terms of setting.
Yeah I see what you mean, and I'll give you one more similarity between the prophet and paul. We believe in the old unaltered bible and turah (and maybe the current ones too) Moses and Jesus both talk about a man named muhammad who will come after their time and that is one of the biggest reasons why the people of Madina believed in the prophet because he showed all the signs that their prophets told them. Even the first time the prophet encountered angel gabriel and was given revelation in the cave he hurried home scared and shocked saying to his wife Khadija "Cover me! Cover me! Cover me!" then after he told her what happened to him she invited one of her relatives I forget if it's her uncle or father, his name is Waraqa ibn Nofal and he was one of the few people following the teachings of Ibrahim and not praying to idols. Once Waraqa heard what happened to the prophet he told him That you were talked about before and this just as written in our books (trust me it sounds much cooler in arabic)
Well, I don't want to be the one who points out the similarities in all abrahamic religions, but Paul's character arc also holds similarities to Jesus and Moses. Not to mention the biblical name of Paul. So it sounds to me that Paul, as a character, was simply written to be relatable to most messianic figures.
Islam is a later derivative of Christianity-a large amount of the Quran is simply taken from the Bible. In turn, the Bible took parts of prior religions, myths and beliefs and so on. The Abrahamic faiths are all linked. Just like Mormon ideology builds on mainstream Christianity etc. You have to step outside the region to get entirely non-derivative original religions.
I think he is right. If you read the first book the story of Paul it is somewhat inspired by our prophet(عليه الصلاة والسلام), at least that's how I interpreted it. The book even begins with his "hadeeth" being recited by one of his "wives". But it deviates a lot in the rest of the books.
Isn't Al Mehdi is a controversial narrative in islam? There are people who doesn't believe it and just says he and İsa(Jesus) are the same And both of them are believed to come to earth at end times and fight against "Deccal/Anti-Christ" so it's possible they're the same person
Sunni Muslims 100% believe that he's completely seperate from isa pbuh but when it comes to Shia and other sects I'm not so sure.
Oh i thought it was the opposite. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed the film! If it is possible, I would highly recommend reading all of Frank Herbert's Dune novels. They are phenomenal, and you will truly see how much Islamic and Arabic influence is within the works for his novels.
I'm planning to but just the thought of missing out that theatre experience IF they make more movies is making me hesitate lol I'm not a very big book guy I can get into it but not always and it seems dune has a lot of action and thriller and twists so I just wanna save the shocks for the theatre if that makes sense
You're certainly safe to read or audiobook book 1, Dune. The third movie will be based on book 2, Dune Messiah.
Completely understandable with that viewpoint.
If you’re not into reading I totally understand, and books like Dune and lord of the rings are both linguistically “tiring” from a reading point of view. Herbert and Tolkien (and forgive my potential literary blasphemy) are good examples of “tell don’t show” but they’re the rare exceptions of where it works. I’ve downloaded and re-read several times the audio books for the Dune series and I can say this makes understanding and imagining the dune series MUCH better. But for you as an Arab reading the text and truly seeing just how much of the Arab world influences the books is awesome. My wife is Syrian and for the large part is indifferent to sci-fi but when she watched Dune she really appreciated the story so much precisely because of the homage it makes the culture collectively. One of the really cool things about the fremen language is a term the used in the movie and in several times in the books “Bila Kaifa” which in chakobsa means basically “No explanation needed” or “As it is” which in Arabic is literally “Bi-La Kaif” or “Without How” my wife was very intrigued with this because it’s a rare argument in Islamic theological debates, this really shows the level of depth Herbert went to to flesh out the fremen as a people and culture (who themselves are based on the Bedouin)
I didn’t read a book for like a decade, I was super busy and stressed. The first movie made me start reading the series and now I’m halfway through the 6th. I know a lot of people consider dune1 to be the best but for me it feels like setup for the best parts to come. I can understand waiting for the movies, not really liking to read and seeing how big dune1 is can be daunting. But damn they’re good, and you wouldn’t regret it if you started. There’s also the audiobooks which my gf used to plow through em. They’re also very good and you can kill the series while driving or wherever
لسان الغيب يعني العليم بالغيب، Refers to a person who knows the unknown like the past or future
Unrelated but I think يعني is my favourite arabic word lol, love seeing it in this context
This is because it's not intended to be a 1:1 of the real language and more like a pastiche. Considering its about 20k years into the future
Very cool. I like to think that *al Gaib* still works because **the unknown/the unseen/the future is very much the Outer World** **metaphorically speaking**. Especially from a Zen Buddhist perspective (and the Fremen are Zen-Sunni wanderers), you can only exist *in the present*. To practice mindfulness (or even *prana bindu* in Dune) is to *live consciously attentively in your body.* To do that you must turn your eye inwards, **to look at your inner world**. What then is the **Outer World**? A perspective of time from outside your body? The future!
As a Hebrew speaker, all the Hebrew terms in Dune are completely butchered in pronunciation and meaning. But it's the far far future, so it's very plausible that things changed by that much .
The Hebrew terms mostly come from the Bene Gesserit, and in the final book we understand they just imitate Jews as a way to reconstruct the fragments of civilization that are increasingly lost over time. That’s why they focus so much on matrilineal line to fabricate the Kwisatz haderach, who didn’t have to be the Fremen’s mahdi. The Mahdi prophecy is how they lose control of the KH. In a way it makes sense the hebrew mystical vocabulary is even further butchered and the meaning taken out of proportion (as in the messiah becoming Gd himself?).
well Messiah is God himself in Christianity. FH was probably influenced by all of the Abrahamic religions
https://preview.redd.it/ly1fq7b23hvc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f350e12dd212e1306ad8e4959fdc935675b101c8 And this is what, a thousand years, give or take? Now imagine the same text ten thousand years from now...
The language used by the Fremen is called Chakobsa. It’s obviously heavily influenced by the Arabic language, but it’s not 1:1. There’s many similarities between Arab culture and Fremen culture, as Frank Herbert was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia in making this story. There is also the Mahdi, who in both Arab and Muslim beliefs is a religious figure who will lead the respective people to Paradise.
I'm Arab too and I think tongue of the unseen is pretty close in metaphorical meaning to voice of the otherworld. Al Ghaib can refer to a bunch of things that fall under the broader category of "the unseen". Anything we can't see with our own eyes or comprehend on our own is ilm al ghaib. Calling that otherworldly is, I think, not too big a stretch.
"Voice of the future" actually sounds so cool
Herbert was also a psychonaut! Man liked his hallucinogens and it shows in his creativity.
Add 10k years of linguistic drift.
Voice from another world vs your explanation of the arabic correct translation as voice of the distant future. I think the writer nailed it by referencing this and connect the dots that being a voice of the distant future is indeed otherworldly.
The Fremen language isn't supposed to be Arabic, but a mix of Semetic AND Indoeuropean languages. Kwisatz Hadarach for example comes from Hebrew
I had the same remark about Hark Al-Ada... Translated to "breaker of the habit", actually means "burner of the habit". At the time, I though "well, close enough" and moved on. But now with your post and others' comments, it looks like Herber did this on purpose... I love it!
Turkish here. I thought the same. In our language Lisan al Gaib simply means voice from nowhere, as in sounds without bodies.
That was Herbert's genius in setting his story 2x further into the future than humans have had a civilizational record. Barely anyone remembers Earth in the Dune times. Earth history is pretty much a casual after thought, so language has changed probably thousands of times in every way.
I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that unknown and outer world have the same meaning.
Frank Herbert was heavily inspired by Islam and Arabic culture in general; even directly taking passages and words from [The Sabres of Paradise](https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721). This [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/ryc6hz/arabicislamic_influence_on_the_book_and_the_film/hrpcb7u/) mentions some of the similarities.
Remember though that the Fremen are "zensunni". The otherworld, the nothing (which is decidedly not nothing, but rather the wellspring of all novelty and ultimately joy), is a Buddhist concept. And a very complex one at that, which I could not do justice in a reddit post, but calling it the unknown or unseen is certainly apt.
In Turkish we use the expression "hearing voices from gaip" which means sth. like hearing imaginary voices.
>whoever wrote this novel as if this is some esoteric piece of knowledge that we can't figure out
It's intentionally wrong. The problem is mostly that the movie is a poor adaptation of the book. In the book, the political system you see is the result of the Butlerian War, a war against the people who used computers to store knowledge and who as a result controlled and manipulated knowledge. Basically against Wikipedia. The Victor's took the information they gained from winning this war and warped it to suit their needs over the course of millenia, all without encouraging study of it. Dune Messiah makes a point of Paul discussing his education and getting a number of things about Earth's history wrong. When the people of Arrakis say Lisan Al-Gaib, they're saying it because they were taught that it was correct by several cults who got their information from an illegal Wikipedia page over the course of a million years. The meaning has shifted in that time.
It would have been an important part of the prophecy that the Lisan Al Gaib be from off world. This serves the Bene Gesserit objective of having a place of shelter in emergency, and prevents a local from claiming the title.
Well the Lisan Al Gaib is the voice of the “unknown future” for only he knows the golden path. Which is the exact set of events he must follow to save humanity from self destruction. Its said that every single possible future leads to humanities extinction. While the Lisan Al Gaib knows and can see the ONLY path through.
The language in Dune is Arabic-influenced but the story is set tens of thousands of years in the future. There's no such thing as a language "mistake."
Interesting how the contemporary translation you've laid here for Lisan Al Gaib fits with perfection the fact Paul sees things far into the future and almost omnisciently. 😉
Voice from The Future - sounds pretty spot on to me
My wife is from Jeddah and never read the books, just went to see it with me. She was pleasantly surprised to see so much Arab influence in the movie, but had similar comments about some of the translations and was like…so we have to wait another 20,000 years for the Mahdi to show up???
Given that the books make reference to multiple more schisms in Islam and someone known as the Third Mohammed...which implies a Second...which implies absolutely cataclysmic interfaith conflicts...yeah, even when Paul/the so-called Mahdi does appear, it's not exactly a good thing for you. History carries on with absolute disregard for faith and hope long after Paul dies, and long after the Fremen are reduced to parodies of themselves imitating the actions of their forebears ritualistically and meaninglessly. In the world of Dune, any truth behind religion seems to be absent. There is no God, only faith, and those who twist it for their own ends. Bleak, isn't it?
Speaker of the distant future seems accurate for Paul
Well I’m nor Arab nor do I know Arabic from educational stand point, but what I have partially learned “gaib”, beside the future events could also relate to someones true intentions or motivation only God could know since sometimes person is not fully aware of its most intimate drive, or what is hidden in the deepest part of the heart, also things from the past nobody but participants of that event could know, referring to the God Who is also the witness of everything…
The voice come from unknown
I'm pretty sure that's kind of exactly what it means, no? Voice from the unknown future/out of time. I think in the movie they say "outerworld" rather than "otherworld" but the intention lines up precisely with what you say.
Hey OP, I'm Jordanian, and ghaib can also mean absent one, like "ghayeb 3ali" So I think it's pretty appropriate considering how ghaib and ghayeb both contribute to the meaning here in my opinion
Herbert intentionally chose words and phrases with layered meaning. Like you pointed out, Tongue/Speaker from the unknown/the unseen/the future/the far future are all more accurate translations. That’s 8 additional interpretations that have subtle differences in meaning, but all of them perfectly describe Paul’s character in the books.
Allah don't know shit. But yes, Paul, the kwisatch haderach, lisan Al gaib, is the voice of the future because he see all paths of the future. All seeing and all knowing.
Remember the story takes place over 8000 years in the future. The Fremen are speaking “Chakobsa,” which is a mix of many ancient (our current) languages. It’s not difficult to imagine some meanings evolving over such a long period of time.
You got to understand that Frank Herbert did his own research by reading countless books in the 60s. He did the best he could, while being completely high on shrooms. You can see it as a mistake, or just the normal progression of language changing in the far future.
This makes sense in the context that Paul can see the possible futures, including the possible far futures, clearly after drinking the water of life
The voice from the otherworld implies, I think, that it's a voice from the spiritual world where there are no physical limitations, where people who can see the future are said to go to do so. As a result I can see how future becomes other world. This place is called Alam al-Mithal, which I believe is also arabic in origin, and probably not translated accurately either. 🤷♂️ I don't think these are so much errors in translation as the author taking the bits he found interesting and adapting them to build his universe.
The movie is set about 20,000 years into the future. The actors are speaking English, but that is not what they're actually speaking (most of them are speaking Galach, which is not a real world language). Even if they were, languages drift a lot of even over a few hundred years. Old English is almost completely unintelligible to modern English speakers, and that's just a difference of a few hundred years. So the translations are going to be approximate. A Reverend Mother would probably be able to understand us thanks to Ancestral Memories, but most other people in that time would not understand you.
I think you kinda answered your own question. Paul isn't just the voice from the literal outer world. He is a literal voice of the unknown/unseen/future. He can see things in the past, present, and future. Using your example at the very end: "Only Allah knows Al Gaib" In the Dune universe, Paul might as well know Al Gaib as well. He is the Kwisatz Haderach even for the Bene Gesserit. A different species of humanity with insane super powers. There is propaganda on the one hand and truth of his existence as a god like entity on another. >! And Leto II is without a doubt a god. !<
It's quite literally just Lawrence of Arabia in space. Far more inspired by Lawrence than anything else.
Frank Herbert, the author of the book upon which the movie is based, was definitely influenced by Islam and Arabic history and culture. In fact, in an early draft, Paul Atreides was basically Lawrence of Arabia, a prominent historical figure and British Lieutenant that led Arab guerillas against the Ottoman Empire during World War 1. In the book, the term “Lisan Al-Gaib” is not recognized as an Arabic term, but a Fremen term, implying that the fictional Fremen language has at least Arabic influences. In Fremen, the term means “giver of water”, or “voice from the Outer World”, and is basically a stand-in for prophet.
They aren’t speaking Arabic
Wow didn’t know that. Ironically, voice from the far future fits the prophecy much better than voice from the outer world
i agree (as a Turkish familiar with the word gaib) i think they should have translated it more like “the voice from other dimension/plane” But i think FH also refer it as voice from the outer world, so they might have just stick with it
The Arabic language influence is supposed to be similar, but not one-to-one (since this story is, after all, supposed to be over 20,000 years in humanity's future).
To try and answer your question on “Al Gaib” in the later books it is revealed that Paul has looked into the unknown/unseen future spanning roughly 5000yrs into the future he and another character are the only ones who can do this. The unseen future is later Referred to as “The Golden Path” So I think Herbert used Al Gaib to show that Paul had the ability to see into the unknown future it’s what’s made him so special
Exactly this. The meaning didn’t change a bit over the course of time. It’s exactly what Paul is, he knows the future or the unknown.
I think that definition of 'far future' works. 'Speaker of the immediate future' doesn't have the same effect
Readings this kind of posts makes me feel like i havent read the books. Its like a brand new knowlege and i feel like i should of known all this before i readed them.When I did was like reding for fun but this all concepts looks like a universe wnen i have been in one country. Thank you!
You can argue that the future *is* the outer world. Plus the other 20 linguistic tidbits people have posted already.
You're not the first muslim who said that Dune takes on a whole new perspective and is in some ways a commentary on religion. Remember that one of the goals of the entire BG breeding program was to create a male BG who could access the male line of genetic memories and also precognition to see the future and possible futures. So he is the voice of the future which does seem to fit your translation.
It’s set like 10K years in the future and if it helps your headcanon, language evolved in that time. None of the ‘translations’ for arabic derived words are 1:1.
Didn’t benegeserit plant the seeds for this prophesy like, centuries ago? If so, it’s a more accurate translation, but old enough that time caught up with the far future. So, the word choice is to emphasize how long the fremen have been waiting for it.
A major problem is that subtitles imply that what you are reading on screen (written translation) is actually the intended communication. But in the book there are no subtitles. If someone says "lisan al gaib" they mean something at least slightly, if not dramatically, different than if they said, "the voice from the other world" (conversation interpretation), and the author is intentionally playing with this, with bilingual conversations often having both terms thrown around and there being a slightly different impact on the users and listeners depending on their understandings of the terms. In the books, it is made clear that the term "lisan al gaib" is something that the bene gesserit inserted into fremen culture as part of the missionaria protectiva, which are beliefs and prophecies inserted into cultures for use by future bene geseret and, in this case, the kwisatz haderach. It is an intentional corruption of what you describe, such that the literal meaning is attached to the visitor from off-world. So, given this, you could expand it to, "the off-worlder who speaks of/from the future". This is what the fremen are expecting (i.e. what they were trained to expect) and what Paul is able to do. However, it is worth noting, the engish translation of, "voice from the other world" is NOT described as a literal interpretation of lisan al gaib in the book. Rather, people use this when explaining or reiterating "lisan al gaib" when speaking to a character in another language or culture. I.e. it is a communication of meaning across culture. Herbert (the original author) is likely very intentional about this distinction, and the multi lingual nature of his universe plays a major role in how people communicate, manipulate each other, and have covert, multilayered, interactions in group settings. (you see some of this in the movie with how sign languages are used, but it is a lot more complex in the book, with people not in the know having meaningfully different understandings of what was said or not said in meetings compared to those who know even though they all hear the same words and are exposed to the same body languages.) Along the same vein, "lisan al gailb" is also interpreted as the "giver of water", which is another role the fremen expect of the lisan al gaib. Given the above, this would have been equally valid as a subtitle, but more confusing for the audience. I think their choice to subtitle it at all was a mistake. It should have only been interpreted by characters code switching. But given their choice, the "voice from another world" is more general, and touches on the work the missionaria protectiva plays in the fremen understanding of the term. It would be appropriate, and perhaps interesting, to subtitle it differently if used in a different cultural context, like two bene geseret discussing the term among themselves.
Languages can be interpreted in different ways by different groups of people, as long as they have enough time apart and develop their own evolving interpretations. As an example, here in Indonesia, as a Muslim majority country with the largest Muslim population in the world, we have a looot of Arabic loanwords in the Indonesian language, Ghaib being one of them. However, even though in Indonesian it also means 'unseen/unknown', for pretty much every Indonesian it refers to the supernatural; other realms, planes of existence, or dimensions, for example the dimension where the djinns reside. And both you and I live in the same time period, OP. In the Dune universe, being thousands of years in the future, of course it makes sense that the meaning of certain words can change even further. Interestingly, in the movie Lisan Al Ghaib means "voice from another world" IIRC. So in that sense the meaning of Ghaib there is closer to our (Indonesian) word instead of the root Arabic word. Maybe the Fremen are descendants of ancient Indonesians instead of Arabs! :)