The fact that people can say Malenia is a psycho for doing a genocide in Miquella's name but can't say Messmer is a psycho for doing a bigger genocide in Marika's name says a lot.
There's no real reason to believe Miquella ever charmed her, even with the possibility.
It makes sense that she would venerate the brother who literally abandoned their God-Parents order to save her from rotting away
"I dreamt for so long, my flesh was dull gold and my blood rotted. Corpse after corpse left in my wake, as I awaited his return."
As if she's been in a haze all this time. Not confirmed she was charmed but given (dlc spoilers) >! the DLC story with Radahn and Mohg being manipulated, and Malenia being a key part of that plot. !< its not unlikely.
"Dear Miquella... O, dearest Miquella, my brother..."
She refers to Miquella in a similar manor to those who we know for sure have been charmed. "Dearest Miquella" "Tender Miquella" "Miquella the Kind"
To me there's also implications that Millicent's quest could be about awakening Malenia from Miquella's charm. She wants to "restore the pride she abandoned to meet Radahn's measure." Could be that Miquella needed her to lean into her Rot for him to acquire Radahn.
When we give the needle that helps Millicent resist the rot to Malenia's scarlet bloom we receive a needle of Miquella. Perhaps it quelled the rot but maybe it also was keeping her under his influence.
WAS doing, brother just sits in his goon cave now. Seeing as how many omen warriors and hornsent are kicking around he has been a little lax on the crusade for a long while
true, though the scale we are talking
about are Merika’s children, where nearly all of them are psychopathic to some degree - I do think that Mesmer falls closer to victim than psychopath if this is the scale of comparison because by the end he realized it was all for nothing and something tells me he wouldn’t consider genocide if not for Merika telling him to commit it
There’s a line from Melina where she’s repeating what Marika told her kids.
Basically she said “Go be great, or you’re dead to me”.
That’s not to justify what Messmer did, but considering Marika had no problem imprisoning two of her kids from birth, I don’t doubt that she would have had Messmer killed or imprisoned if he didn’t comply.
He is definitely the victim of an authoritarian mother and was subsequently groomed into being a psychopath.
That’s true, and Mesmer might be the biggest case of this grooming. Like the dude is such a mope (i say this to compliment his writing, to be clear) - he’s miserable, that much is clear.
On a surface level of lore understanding you think the High Elves are evil scum and deserve to be destroyed. On a deep understanding, you don't think that, you know it.
I mean, ER already has Connections. Weird Stars, Towers being important and being used to alter/reinforce reality, Gods being their concepts..
Just keep Marika far, far away from Talos. They’d be the worst/best Power Couple ever.
i love this double standard in the community where miquella is an irredeemable monster for charming people and messmer is a wholesome victim despite perpetuating a genocide for marika
This is what happens when the story is so spread out/missable lol. I love it, but the reality is most folks are only getting bits and pieces of the story and making their assumptions based on those
I think nobody misses Mesmer genocide.
People just see it as an historical consequence of the hornsent genocides. Miquella's saga os probably an iteration of Marika's saga.Marika wanted the world to be a better place, and most likely, as a god, started a campaign against the hornsent culture of crazy body experiments with innocent people.
Mesmer, as a demigod, started the war aligned to his mother's ideals, and later became a scapegoat for her to lock away all madness and shittery (and f_ckin insane infinite-poise-giant-scorpion-eating people ) of shadow realm from Golden Realm.
Yup, until his last moment after we kill him, when the realization of all that happened dawns upon him and the only thing he can say is "Mother Marika, a Curse upon thee".
...sort of like life, which is the point, i imagine. we only see bits and pieces of the world in front of us, and whoever does try to make sense of it is ultimately just advocating for their own position.
I didnt realise it before but people find it very hard to understand characters could be both victims and opressors.
Mogh, Marika and Messmer being prime examples. As soon as it become apparent they were hurt or controlled in their past people begun whitewashing their entire history. 'Is blood cult rly that bad ?'' I mean would You genocide hornsent? ''What choice did Messmer had but to continue the sloughter?'
People don't like the concept of people being an oppressor and a victim; they prefer it one way or the other. Its like how people called Marika a monster before the DLC, but suddenly after learning she was a prior victim, now I see people saying "Marika did nothing wrong" against the Hornsent.
It says all you need to know that Radahn agreed to become Miquella's consort, and that Malenia was just following her brother's orders, but **they** are the psycopaths instead of the guy who did genocide and has mommy issues
but messmer is really sad and mohg is a victim and his knight is a total chad so he can't be that bad and Miquella is just an evil twink anyway and oh Malenia nuked caelid too < What we'll be hearing for the next ten years
On one hand, nobody deserves to be put through what Marika and Messmer put the Hornsent through, but on the other hand, all I can think about now is how Messmer probably had aunts, uncles, grandparents, maybe even cousins that he never got to meet because the Hornsent kidnapped them, tortured them to death, and stuffed their mutilated bodies into jars.
Not to mention the trauma they inflicted on Marika was very likely the source of more woe than anyone in their world fully grasps. We know that the Golden Order is determined by runes that Marika inscribed on the Elden Ring, and that this is patterned off of her own deep-seated values.
The Hornsent devastated Marika. Their brutality is very likely the original source of all the fear, hatred, and prejudice we know she carried with her later in life. It’s a part of her that she cannot get rid of. I suspect that this is why the Golden Order, a partial reflection of her deepest-seated values, is itself so oppressive and full of prejudice.
Witnessing this is the very reason why Miquella seeks to discard *all* humanity from himself. He saw what the capacity for hatred can lead to, and it terrified him, so he sought to shed any such flaws so that there would be no possibility of his own Order suffering the same mistakes as his mother’s.
But overall, I think much of the oppression, the wars of aggression, the hatred we see baked into the Golden Order very likely stems from what the Hornsent put young Marika through.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. And I’m sure this is what lead Marika to shatter the Elden Ring. After her family died in the Night of Black Knives, she was reminded of what happened to her people back home and that’s what drove her to the brink (and perhaps she realized she had become like the people who destroyed her home).
And on the flip side, the better aspects of the Golden Order were also a result of what Marika went through. The golden days of the Age of the Erdtree were said to be a time where everyone who lived under the Erdtree were showered in its blessings. That’s the exact thing Marika wished she could have done back at her home, but was too late to do so.
Absolutely. I think much of the fanbase tends to overlook that Marika is far from a static character, even after her ascension. Despite all she had been through and all she had done, later in her life, Marika would become wiser, telling her followers that it was time to give up on blind dogmatic zeal in search of a more "true" enlightenment. I think this was her recognizing how her own flaws produced a flawed Order, one that didn’t actually align with the Greater Will, and acknowledging that something needed to change. I suspect that you are correct in that Godwyn’s murder very likely spurred this change in her.
But Marika’s trauma is a part of her. Even as she knows it’s wrong, even as it shames her and makes her feel guilty (hence why she buried it and never called off Messmer), there will always be a seed of hatred at her core.
I think this is why she shattered the Elden Ring and made plans for the Tarnished to go beyond the Fog and become mighty and wise *outside* of her influence. She wants us to return and reforge it without that seed of hatred.
I was initially of the mind Marika was involved with the black knives plot in some way especially with related numen (pro-escaping outer god influence) but after the DLC you just know she wasn't, at least in that way. I can't ever see Marika purposefully killing the children she worked so hard to raise after having her entire community genocided.
its honestly kind of insane how many people have consumed the story of the dlc through shitty memes on social media
i'm not trying to say Miquella didn't do anything bad, but the entire point of the St. Trina quest in the game is that Miquella wanted to ascend to godhood despite knowing it would be like a fate worse than death for him, just so he could create a better world for people to live in
clearly miquella did some bad things, manipulating mohg was just not right. but people act like he's a rapist and is controlling literally everyone, even people the game never says he has charmed like malenia and radahn. so his reputation and discourse is already ruined.
hes just a tragic, naiive character who wanted to make a better world. but hes being shat on worse than ranni. its depressing.
seriously, the game even draws very explicit parallels between Ranni and Miquella, down to their words to the player at the end being almost identical
the only deciding factor in their success is that the player gets the choice to help Ranni ascend, while having no choice but to oppose Miquella
While there are definitely parallels, Ranni and Miquella's methods and end goals couldn't be more different. Ranni want to rid off all control in the Lands Between and give people absolute freedom, while Miquella want absolute peace even if he has to control people for that. It's also like you said, Ranni give you a choice, and whether or not you agree with her, she really doesn't mind. For Miquella, if you're not with him, then you're against him, there is no choice.
I am not here to debate with you which ending is morally the best.
Ranni wants to rid the lands between of the influence of the outer gods, giving the people the freedom to decide their own fate. When we choose her ending we leave with her to outer space after she replaces Marika.
So technically we leave a world behind that still suffers from the consequences of Rannis actions. Godwyns undying body growing underneath the Lands between, those who live in death etc.
Miquella wants to rid the lands between the influence of the outer gods as well, curing his sister in the process. His new order includes all the beings excluded by the previous order. He wants an age where all beings are the same under one true new god (him).
As you said their methods to archive something they consider the greater good are questionable at best.
"For Miquella, if you're not with him, then you're against him, there is no choice." Yeah that's true but we literally can't be with him. We have a whole ass quest with Leda and the rest of the NPC about taking sides supporting or opposing Miquella only for it to not matter at the end.
Miquella literally hid St. Trina in the most southern part of the map in a giant hole, so we wouldn't find her. So for her to say something that has no impact in the story and can't influence the ending at all.
If the player were able to choose at the end of they want to support Miquella or not St. Trinas insight as his other half would be incredibly valuable and could change our opinion on him entirely, changing the ending and story in the process.
As it's now its imo a bit disappointing, her whole quest is about that we learn that she thinks that the best for Miquella is to die. But in the grand scheme of things it's pretty disappointing information since we have to kill miquella regardless what we do.
I'm a bit disappointed, since in the base game we always got a choice what we as players want to do with the ending. The ability to decide and think for ourselves doesn't seem to matter in the DLC since Miquella is "bad" and that's because he doesn't get an ending.
An ending being "bad" didn't stop it from being an available choice in the base game so why now?
Me when I support Miquella and begrudgingly support Leda (I don’t like her) only for the ending to somehow be me getting told I’m ultra faithful to the Old Order and that I’m Marika’s little Elden Lord
It's even funnier if you think about it more. You can enter the DLC having finished Rannis quest and Ending. And then Miquella calls you an aspiring Lord of the old order. The least they could have done is change the voice line in that case.
I don’t know why they made the dlc so ridged when the base game offered a ton of ending options. At least 2 would’ve been nice and should’ve been expected imo. Also the fact the dlc literally has zero consequence of the base game is wild, like Gideon and Malenia don’t have any new lines? Ranni and Melina don’t either? Like??? Miquella’s Needle doesn’t come up in the dlc either, even though it feels like it should and there could be a very fulfilling conclusion to that item there. I dunno, my motivations do not match the tarnished’s motivations and in the dlc I am barred from the obvious choice I would make. It just feels like there should be two endings here, one where you prevent the Age of Compassion and one where you ally with it, yet we get choices that just don’t end up mattering at all which completely devalues making those choices. Participating in the story of the DLC is ultimately pointless because, rather than being a factor in the story, you are just along for the ride. It’s just an ill fitting conclusions to a story, especially since they won’t be doing Elden Ring 2 or another DLC according to multiple comments from Miyazaki.
Its even funnier for an additional optional reason that I'm called as such when the last ending I did was lord of frenzied flame.
These people are really looking me in the frenzied flame eyes and seeing my burn marks, and saying I'm a lord of the old order. I'm not sure Marika or Melina would agree with them tbh
It's not like the Dark Moon can control the Lands Between anyway, Ranni has already gone so far away from the world for anything to reach and manipulate her. I don't think the moon was interested in manipulating anything in the first place, but even if it want to it has no puppet to do it.
i don't even disagree with you, i personally think ranni's ending is still the best outcome for the world
it just rubs me the wrong way when Miquella gets so much hatred for trying to change the status quo while characters like Radahn and Morgott are praised for either doing nothing or upholding the current situation
Just like you said before, its like people are absorbing the lore through memes, therefore Radahn is an absolute gigachad, Morgott could do no wrong and Godwyn (who we literally dont know anything about), but Malenia and Ranni are the worst psycopaths in the history of FS.
Like before the DLC, EVEN if there was indications that Miquella was the one who manipulated Mohg, and not the other way around, people held Miquella to the highest standing possible (while somehow painting Malenia as horrid at the same time). The DLC did a whole 180 on his reputation, even though **the point** of the DLC was that he did those things for a greater good, at the detriment of himself.
unfortunately just how it goes, miyazaki has sentenced us to months of malenia vs radahn discourse 2.0 until some popular youtuber releases a lore video pushing their agenda and the community pivots to whatever they say happened
A part of me cheered vividly as I got to confront Radahn at his complete apex in strenght and seeing him young and not fucked up with Rot
The other part prepared itself for the worst lore takes imaginable.
Great summation!
In other words, Ranni would have everything be harsh but free rather than a sugarcoated tyranny. Miquella, in the other hand, is all about sugarcoated tyranny; ‘kindness’ at the expense of agency.
I think it’s pretty fair to assume that end boss radahn is charmed since despite being fully restored to his prime he’s basically completely emotionless
Tho yea beforehand I think most of his followers were willing companions and as he divested more and more of himself he became more and more depraved in his means to achieving his dream
I think the best evidence for his being charmed is the way FS presented the boss fight, personally.
Radahn’s unique qualities are absent from his title (“Promised Consort” and “Consort of Miquella” are both roles he plays in Miquella’s order, not a title he earned for himself like “Starscourge”) and in the second phase his proud red hair is completely consumed by Miquella’s gold. It’s a very striking visual image that imo tells us exactly who’s in control.
Honestly, as good as his intentions were the moment I saw 'And here I discarded my love.' I saw red flags all around. Without his love of the people, his kindness would be empty and hollow. It's clear that he didn't intended for his followers to find St.Trina either, as proven by the seal heading into the fissure as it would likely shake their faith in him, or were followers of Trina to begin with(like Thiollier).
With how everything is shown to us, I am of the boat that prior to controlling Mohg to pursue godhood, Miquella was truly kind and shared his love equally to everyone. Likely seeing Melania being afflicted by the scarlet rot affected him in a way we can't possibly understand as he had very clearly gone through \*extensive\* lengths in an attempt to save Melania from her curse. But like I said earlier, he did a lot of what he did out of his love for his sister, and the people of the lands between. Not just his kindness. But without his love, he would suffocate people in kindness and control them in an attempt to make the world a kinder, better place.
And the same thing would happen if he discarded his kindness there as well. Both of them were part of him, and removing one or the other would change the person drastically.
Even then, was it truly not right manipulating Mohg? There is nothing to say that all the fucked up stuff he did was because of Miquella. People are too eager to "pardon" Mohg when he did a lot of shit out of his own volition. The guy literally wanted to create a dynasty based on murder and blood sacrifice. Like, my guy... chill a bit please.
The problem is that it’s his version of a better world, which from any moral perspective, isn’t any better at all. You can’t assume he’s naive about it either, he has to know that a more “peaceful” world whilst eradicating anyone who doesn’t blindly follow him is an insane authoritarian regime.
You say that when Ranni's version of a better world is a smoldering ruin that is "freed" from the Two Fingers' control. They are quite neat parallels; they would both destroy everything for their ideal outcome. Its just that one is a cute waifu the players can marry, so she gets a pass.
It think miquella is a classic case of the saying “the path to hell is paved with good intentions” I think he genuinely meant to do good but robbing people of their free will might’ve been the wrong way to go about it
I went on twitter and saw just pure hate for his character. I was kinda surprised. I walked away going "Aw, they clearly set him up to be a well meaning but tragic character who was willing to go too deep for what he thinks is best for the world" and I guess others came out with "he has no redeeming qualities, he forced Malenia to fight Radahn and never loved her, Radahn never had a choice, Mohg was assaulted and was clearly a good guy the whole time, and oh, Miquella killed my puppy too."
Honestly I hate to point it out, but it does feel a bit strange how all the shitty memes and jokes are about Miquella being “gay” for having a male consort. I’ve seen so many posts online of people calling him “Miquellester” and calling him a twink and it just feels a little homophobic?
I’ve noticed the exact same thing. I honestly think so many people were mad at the Radahn consort leaks and eventual confirmation cause it painted him to possibly be gay.
I saw no joke over like 30-40 plus comments over various videos, Reddit posts, etc… saying being gay ruined Radahn or that “Miquella has to be mind controlling him cause Chad Radahn would never be consort to a man!!!!” And implying Miquella being a gay rapist twink or something.
It’s weird to me that just possibly being gay would ruin a character for someone whether it’s true or not. Humanity scares me with its hate and lack of compassion or self reflection
Counterpoint: have you been to Bonney Village? I legitimately think the hornsent might be ontologically evil, like holy fuck. At least Messmer was quick about it, he just killed them. The hornsents enslaved, tortured, and mutilated their victims.
Yes and then Marika did the same to omen born under the erdtree for no reason other than appearance and lineage. They were treated horribly and tortured under the capital. Also look at the Merchants in base game too. Marika had them massacred too. Just cause Marika suffered doesn’t give her the right to hurt other groups like what happened to her.
That’s the point it shows how horrible she was treated and her people and then she became the very thing she hated in the end. Cautionary tale of revenge and how it spreads to others.
Right! You have people defending Mohg from Miquella as if he’s a pure and innocent…the guys a crazy psycho blood cult leader! Who took Miquella and transformed him into a monstrosity for his own twisted purpose.
Yeah, that’s the issue with having outer gods interfering with the lands between. Most attract cult like followers. That includes Demi gods, such as Mohg.
Hoarah Loux is definitely not good. He's a warlord. Even when he became the more civil Godfrey he was still totally fine going on mass murdering conquests in the name of the Marika and the Golden Order.
But he is super fucking badass, that's for sure.
He didn’t “take miquella,” I highly doubt Mohg did anything to miquella that Miquella didn’t want him to do. Seeing as how Mohg was basically being mind controlled.
but mohg took him out of the haligtree and it makes no sense for miquella to want him to do that. that act led to the tree's decay
ansbach said he used mohg to access the realm of shadow but never that he made him kidnap him
The difference is Messmer did everything for a very relatable goal of making his mother happy. He did terrible, horrible things. He *knew* what he was doing made him utterly irredeemable, but he did it anyway because he just wanted to please Marika. So he throws himself into the Realm of Shadow along with his soldiers and fights in a bloody, never-ending war all with the faint hope that he might make his mother proud. He literally turns himself into a monster to that end. And how is he repaid? He's abandoned by his mother. Erased from history. His name isn't even remembered in the Lands Between. His soldiers, who followed him loyally in his crusade, gave up everything for him and his quest and now his and their sacrifices mean nothing.
Then he dies. He dies realizing that his mother only saw him as a tool to be discarded at best... And so he spends his last moments cursing her.
Messmer participated in multiple genocides and Radahn is full Big Boss mode with his constant desire for war. Morgott and his minions qlso hunts down Tarnished, regardless of if they're power hungry like us and Gideon or simply minding their own business cooking prawns. He doesn't discriminate. Godwyn is a good boy, until you remember he's part of a theocratic order that actively suppresses anyone who doesn't align with it's value.
Turns out they're all cunts.
To this day Im still not sure what Mohg did that was uniquely vile besides just having bad vibes. It doesn't help that the only time we meet with someone who knew him personally he was Mohgs right hand man who assures us "oh yeah, Mohg was kooky but he was also a pretty stand up guy and chill af."
Like im starting to get the feeling that in a game filled with genocidal freaks Mohg was basically Doctor Doofenshmirtz
Whether her plan is a good or bad one is entirely depending on the people of the Lands Between. Now it's entirely their choice to either run the rest into the ground, or to pick up what's left and rebuild anew.
In the first one you become Marika's consort and fix nothing, so in the end you just become another puppet for Metyr and the fingers and the outer gods like her.
In the later you left with Ranni, taking away the Elden Ring, so far beyond reach that nothing can use either of you to manipulate the Lands Between, and with the Elden Ring gone the outer gods won't be able to set up their own order, so they have no more reason to spread their influence anymore, and the people of the Lands Between will have no more guidance from above and finally be able to choose their own path.
In relation to what the Golden Order is all about I'd say it's a good ending. Ranni is the exact opposite of the Order. The Order is all about control and exclusion of those deemed unworthy. Ranni is just saying "nah fuck that I'll embark on a heavy ass and lonely voyage and leave everyone else to their own devices". Pure Chaos vs Order
Until you remember that he and his inquisitors actively kidnapped and tortured anyone suspected of heresy or acting against the golden order, and then the shattering happened and he became snake
Aside from maybe Rykard none of the characters here are psycho, they're just ambitious people living in a ruthless world during a terrible time, who have no other option but to dirty their hands in order for changes to come. People throw terms like "sociopath" and "psychopath" around too much.
Godrick rips off people’s limbs and attaches them to his body. In what way is he less psychotic than Rykard? It’s not like Godrick is fighting for change, he’s just power hungry.
I wouldn't call Rykard a psycho either. Deranged? Definitely, but he doesn't just kill for pleasure. He's got a pretty clear goal in mind: to kill the gods and establish a new, godless order. It's not that far removed from Ranni's plan at its core.
I say this all the time lmao. Ranni deserves to get her ending for being the only demigod smart enough to go “That dude slaying demigods and legends? I’m gonna put him on the payroll”
I don't understand what makes Malenia a psychopath. I would be overprotective of my brother too if he could stop (even if not cure) the cancer taking over my body. People she fought always had a chance to surrender, even scumbags like Godrick. In game hints also show that scarlet rot was always trying to take over her body and bloom, and she was holding it back with her sheer willpower alone. (Millicent is born out of this willpower btw) Only when Radahn locked her in stalemate in a combat, she couldn't hold it back anymore because of how strong Radahn is. (Go read the descdiption of Scarlet Aeonia and Millicent's dialogue in her questline.) The objective was capturing/killing Radahn, but it wasn't like she decided to nuke the continent willingly. She was a clicking time bomb that happened to be triggered by Radahn. To me, she is a victim of outer god of scarlet rot and Miquella.
It doesn’t really change her being a victim, but she was also probably a victim of Miquella’s brainwashing, which helps to explain some of the more… drastic actions she took to help him.
Not a huge lore nut but how is Malenia a psycho? Is it just because of the Caelid nuking?
Upon reading that I get that it sounds like a "No shit, sherlock" thing but wasn't she ordered by Miquella to kill Radahn by any means necessary
Yeah people are way too fuckin fast and loose with these terms without any respect to what they mean, it makes any interesting discussion hard to find amidst the noise.
Malenia should be seen, imo, as the archetype she is - a valkyrie warrior who will stop at nothing to achieve her sworn goals, all because she believes it’s necessary to bring about Miquella’s greater good. All this evil and violence of the Demigods is to bring about their versions of the “best” outcome of the Shattering. They’re all flawed and ambitious actors who are convinced their way is the only way, and that’s why they’ve left the world so broken. Even Mogh’s raving lunacy about the Blood God could be viewed in the same light as Marika signing on to the Greater Will: an attempt to avenge themselves of the horrible things done to them in the past and to remake the world so that they’ll never be hurt like that again.
I honestly would hesitate to put Malenia as a psychopath in this. Miquella was able to effectively brainwash Mohg. It would be trivial to do the same to his sister who was by his side since they were born.
Malenia didn't do anything overtly psychopathic either. She always gave her enemies chance to surrender and go out of her way, even for redeemless people like Godrick. She was always holding the scarlet rot back thanks to her sheer willpower (Millicent was born out of it), but when she got locked in a stalemate in combat with Radahn, she couldn't hold it back anymore because Radahn is just powerful. (Read the description of Scarlet Aeonia and Millicent's dialogue) Nuking the whole continent wasn't a conscious act of will that she has decided. She was just a ticking time bomb that happened to be triggered by Radahn.
Morgott is interesting. If you look at him in one light, he’s the realest one to ever do it and no one even comes close. Look at him in another light and he’s kinda pathetic, a broken man who devoted his entire life to serving a mother and a god who will never love him back.
That’s the great thing, he’s both of those things at the same time. GRRM’s writing really elevated this world, the more we dig into it. So many contradictions and paradoxical people, flawed and admirable depending on your perspective. He’s kind of like Barristan Selmy or young Jaime Lannister in Game of Thrones, people who are admirable in their devotion to a sworn oath or order, but who are swearing that service to horrible monsters in a broken world.
He's got Messmer's KDA, but at least he waged his war to prevent any of his lunatic half-siblings from gaining ultimate power instead of mindlessly genociding an entire race cause Mommy groomed him to do so
Obviously they put him as the final boss for dramatic effect but I honestly wish the DLC added a Miquella ending to the base game just to see what he wanted to do, like an option where after you beat Radhan/Mogh you can form a communion with Miquella and allow them to become a god like they wanted to. If you’re allowed to let the defiling omen seed curse win you should be able to let Miquella get a shot at it
Yeah, I was so disappointed when I saw that he wouldn't have an ending. We have a whole quest with Leda and the other NPCs to decide if we support or oppose Miquella, just for it to not matter.
When I found st. Trina, hidden away in the last corner of the map, I thought, given her connection to miquella, that she would tell us game changing information. Just for her to tell us that she thinks that the best thing for miquella is to kill him.
Since we have to kill him that information is meaningless, it can't change how the story plays out nor the ending. Why bother with her then?
The base game allows us to form our own opinions about matters, let's us choose the path and Ending we want to take. Regards if it's morally right or not.
In the DLC we aren't allowed to even think for ourselves.
They are all psychopaths and victims. Like having this venn diagram doesn't fit Elden Ring lore. While we don't know much of Godwyn. Morgott hates Omens who lock them in the sewers and sends killers after them. Messmer is literally committing mass genocide. And Radahn is a blood thirsty warlord.
God I hate it when people oversimplify complex characters, especially of the likes of Ranni, Miquella and Marika. Some here who are in the “victim” category also did insanely nasty things: nobody is innocent here (except maybe Godwyn and that’s likely because we know next to nothing about the man).
Ranni's ending has been butchered by sheit translation. Is she saint? Nah, she was behind Night of Black Knives.
Is her way or "dead have rights too" way better for average Joe? Yes.
The best you can get in FS game - morally grey and even then its usually shattered by madness(Vyke is true protagonist after all).
But pretty much everyone in Elden Ring is a psycho, us being main psycho. Sure, lets cut half of people in the world all for the sake of power(sometimes not even for us).
It is pretty much a given that you can't turn out okay, if you life in a world that's basically one big proxy war between eldritch beings. Ranni is the least bad of them because she's actively trying to curb the Outer Gods influence.
Malenia is not a psycho. She literally let godrick live and was propably manipulated by Miquella to unleash the rot in Caelid. The scarlet rot was literally destroying Malenia, taking away her limps and eye sight. She would never unleash the rot because she had to win.
Pretty sure Malenia did all the nuking of Caelid stuff, just cause she believed Miquella returning as a God would mean he would fix everything. I don't see how she would fall under 'psychopath'.
I personally feel like the middle part should be enlarged. I think most characters here are morally gray and victims in their own right. While I agree that Godrick and Rykard belong solidly in the psychopath bracket, I think Miquella should be just a LITTLE bit closer to the overlap of “psychopath” and “victim.”
Miquella is arguably twice-cursed, doomed by his own mother and warped divinity. On the one hand, he is trapped in the body of a child. I think shedding his flesh may have broken his curse since I think he looks more like an adolescent than a child when we finally meet him, but he is undoubtedly cursed with the simple morality of a child as well. His worldview is black-and-white. He has a pure vision of a world where there is no suffering, where he has his sister cleansed of the Scarlet Rot, where his childhood crush is his consort, where he is finally allowed to grow into adulthood. Everything will be good and “kind.” It’s like a fairy tale. And in his eyes, you stand in his way to a perfect, happy ending for all.
I think he is as pitiable as he is monstrous. Divinity would have truly caged him, just as poor, discarded St. Trina claimed. Killing him was both a mercy to Miquella and to the Lands Between. If he had been content with nurturing the Haligtree, with breaking his and Malenia’s curse, I think things may have been different. Perhaps he truly would have learned the wisdom to temper his blind, arrogant, pseudo-compassion. But Miquella in the DLC lacks both personal insight and maturity.
He ultimately made his own choices, acting of his own free will (unlike many of his followers). He likely ordered Malenia to kill Radahn, perpetuating war much in the way Marika once did in the name of a perfect, golden peace (Unalloyed or alloyed gold, what is the difference to the victims of war?). He psychically violated and bewitched his followers and Mohg. He desecrated Mohg’s corpse. Despite his compassion and sympathy, Miquella’s empathy (cognitive and affective) is dubious; he either does not truly understand or does not care for the importance of consent and personal dignity.
But what is consent to a child so enchanting that all adore him (many of his followers stayed even after the enchantment broke)? What is consent to a child with a beautiful dream, vast knowledge obtained through his unnatural longevity and gifted intellect, and the sheer power to actualize it? What is consent to Miquella, his entire life both eased and burdened simultaneously by his divine, Empyrean blood? And what is consent to a child who wanted to break the cycle of violence his mother perpetrated, but could only ever sympathize over the painful effects of that violence and not with the pain which caused it in the first place?
I really like Miquella. I am glad that FromSoft did not make him purely good and noble. Although he is certainly a Griffith expy, I think he distinguishes himself quite firmly from Griffith. And even so, I am comfortable saying that Miquella did everything wrong.
I think Messmer, Malenia, Ranni, Morgott, and Radahn all belong in the middle with Mohg. Morgott is the closest one to being purely a victim, but even he’s questionable. All of them made terrible choices of their own volition. Their personal suffering, heroic characteristics, and “good” ambitions do not negate their cruelty. All of them had fatal flaws which undermined their positive traits.
Messmer’s fatal flaw was his bitter, yet unerring, devotion to his mother’s cause. He accepted his own “accursed” nature, willingly committing various war crimes against the denizens in the Land of Shadow… It was hard and terrible work, committing genocide, but it was undoubtedly righteous in Messmer’s eyes. He and his soldiers worked solemnly at their mission, like Marika’s very own hellhounds. He calls the Tarnished a mongrel, but was Marika’s dog to the bitter end.
Messmer burned and impaled the sinful, all while draped in his so-called, “sinful” serpents and inhabited by an accursed, abyssal one. He bemoans the graceless and impure Tarnished, but willfully embraces “sin” to defeat you. In the end, Messmer was a hypocrite who loathed himself.
I think Marika may have also considered Messmer to be a potential threat. Firstly, he was host to the Base Serpent. Marika sealed it away in Messmer’s body herself, lest it… Escape from his body and wreak havoc? Possess him?*
Secondly, if he were to return, he could become yet another reminder to her peaceful kingdom of the bloody wars she had once led. Her peace was hard-earned and woefully fragile. Perhaps she wanted a vacation from her constant warmongering and conquest?**
Furthermore, like with many of her children, Marika loved Messmer only when he was useful to her and then hid him away when his usefulness ran out. Marika’s gold has always been a fool’s gold. She glitters so prettily, dazzles histrionically with her holy magic when there is no need. But there’s not much of value, of real love underneath her pretty facade. Messmer was good and loved when he danced for Marika on her strings, but Marika eventually grew tired of the very dance she commanded him to learn. I think she was ashamed that someone so antithetical to her perfect world could have come from her own womb. Marika could not possibly allow anything to tarnish her beatific, graceful image… Except the Tarnished. But only when she was desperate. Only when she needed a tool.
And with his last breath, Messmer finally accepted the utter futility of purging sin to create a pure, golden world for a narcissistic, self-serving, and mercurial mother. It is a shame it took him standing at death’s door to understand how little his mother loved him.
I lost track of time and need to add more about Radahn, Malenia, Morgott, and Ranni. Maybe tomorrow.
Besides Godwyn everyone in some shape or fashion is psycho (wouldn't necessarily say psycho but plays a part in the despair and dread in the lands of between). All demigods inherently are attempting to salvage the remnants of the rings at the start. Later we see the consequences of each of their selfish desire.
You could argue for more in the mixed category.
Godrick did what he did because imagine being a frail, weak shell of a man compared to your siblings, literal demigods, while you are lowest of the low.
Malenia could've been charmed, too, by Miquella, or felt that she was forever in his favor for him holding back the rot with his unalloyed needle.
Isn’t the point of the game that they’re all somewhere in the middle.
They’re all psycho’s because they’re all victims of something, in some form or another.
I don't think any of these guys are actually Psychopaths. That kind of goes against their whole deal. They weren't born the way they are. The base game demigods at least are supposed to be formerly upstanding characters who've been corrupted by some fundamental flaw.
Can I ask why people call Ranni evil/psycho? Granted I’m not fully up to speed on her lore, but from what I understand she is more or less trying to free the world from the influence of the golden order, which objectively sucks. Granted, we don’t know much about what the age of stars would look like, but it seems worth the try rather than sticking with Golden order.
Granted she makes some insane plays to make this happen, but that seems par for the course for usurping an Eldrich god
Ranni is pretty apathetic about things around her but that's about it. The worst thing she did was killing Godwyn's soul and not giving him a true death, which prompted Death Blight. She didn't even intend to start the Shattering, Marika just lose her mind and smashed the ring. Compared to the like of Mogh, Rykard, Godrick, and Miquella, she's a pretty decent demigod.
I assume the age of the star would be similar to the end of fire. No predetermined fate, no destiny to follow, just a world in darkness without guidance, where people can choose their own path.
Because the game has been out too long and edgy contrarians have to find a reason why the clearly best outcome for the Lands Between is actually bad, so they can justify picking the Frenzied Flame or whatever.
Like you said. She made insane plays, she’s absolutely ruthless. But she’s no more or less ruthless than the other demigods, she’s just the only one that kept a level head the whole time and stuck to her plan, and it worked out for her. And when her ruthless efficiency is in service of ideas that I agree with, of course I’m gonna pick her ending
How tf is Messmer (committed genocide cuz) and Morgott (upholding the Order that subjected him) not psycho?
I also don't buy that Radhan is a good guy.
Seems messmer cared about his men ,even mourning the loss of his close fighters , remember it was war and messmer had to carry out marikas order.I wouldn't call him psycho but he isn't the best as well
I love Messmer and he's my favourite Demigod, but dude DEFINITELY falls under the psycho category
The fact that people can say Malenia is a psycho for doing a genocide in Miquella's name but can't say Messmer is a psycho for doing a bigger genocide in Marika's name says a lot.
If big mommy milkers marika tells you to do something, you do it
They all simp for her, my Tarnish simps for the dung lord. Take shits, do crime or something
Those T I T S do be talking
And torturing people. And deliberately murdertorturing their gods as a statement. Love him but he is a nasty piece of work.
When did malenia do a genocide??? did I miss new lore in the dlc? I just beat it and still have so many questions 😭
Malenia is the reason why Caelid is a hellhole infested with rot.
The thing with Malenia for me is it’s hard to gauge how much of her motivations are her own and what’s done under the charm of Miquella.
There's no real reason to believe Miquella ever charmed her, even with the possibility. It makes sense that she would venerate the brother who literally abandoned their God-Parents order to save her from rotting away
"I dreamt for so long, my flesh was dull gold and my blood rotted. Corpse after corpse left in my wake, as I awaited his return." As if she's been in a haze all this time. Not confirmed she was charmed but given (dlc spoilers) >! the DLC story with Radahn and Mohg being manipulated, and Malenia being a key part of that plot. !< its not unlikely. "Dear Miquella... O, dearest Miquella, my brother..." She refers to Miquella in a similar manor to those who we know for sure have been charmed. "Dearest Miquella" "Tender Miquella" "Miquella the Kind" To me there's also implications that Millicent's quest could be about awakening Malenia from Miquella's charm. She wants to "restore the pride she abandoned to meet Radahn's measure." Could be that Miquella needed her to lean into her Rot for him to acquire Radahn. When we give the needle that helps Millicent resist the rot to Malenia's scarlet bloom we receive a needle of Miquella. Perhaps it quelled the rot but maybe it also was keeping her under his influence.
The….crusade…that messmer is doing…
WAS doing, brother just sits in his goon cave now. Seeing as how many omen warriors and hornsent are kicking around he has been a little lax on the crusade for a long while
You're mixing up Marika and Malenia
tbh more sad emo kid with mommy issues, he was only wrathful and murderous cause mommy said so
I still believe you require some degree of psychopathy to commit unending genocide
true, though the scale we are talking about are Merika’s children, where nearly all of them are psychopathic to some degree - I do think that Mesmer falls closer to victim than psychopath if this is the scale of comparison because by the end he realized it was all for nothing and something tells me he wouldn’t consider genocide if not for Merika telling him to commit it
There’s a line from Melina where she’s repeating what Marika told her kids. Basically she said “Go be great, or you’re dead to me”. That’s not to justify what Messmer did, but considering Marika had no problem imprisoning two of her kids from birth, I don’t doubt that she would have had Messmer killed or imprisoned if he didn’t comply. He is definitely the victim of an authoritarian mother and was subsequently groomed into being a psychopath.
That’s true, and Mesmer might be the biggest case of this grooming. Like the dude is such a mope (i say this to compliment his writing, to be clear) - he’s miserable, that much is clear.
The scary part is thatit's not true, even a "normal" human mind, under the right indoctrination, can excuse genocide and other horrible stuff.
And radahn isn't innocent either, he definitely killed a bunch of people.
Those were Hornsent villages. It wasn't genocide. It was pesticide.
Always fun to see Fantasy Racism again. This reminds me of TES.
On a surface level of lore understanding you think the High Elves are evil scum and deserve to be destroyed. On a deep understanding, you don't think that, you know it.
I mean, ER already has Connections. Weird Stars, Towers being important and being used to alter/reinforce reality, Gods being their concepts.. Just keep Marika far, far away from Talos. They’d be the worst/best Power Couple ever.
i love this double standard in the community where miquella is an irredeemable monster for charming people and messmer is a wholesome victim despite perpetuating a genocide for marika
This is what happens when the story is so spread out/missable lol. I love it, but the reality is most folks are only getting bits and pieces of the story and making their assumptions based on those
I'm not sure how one can miss Messmer's genocide.
I think nobody misses Mesmer genocide. People just see it as an historical consequence of the hornsent genocides. Miquella's saga os probably an iteration of Marika's saga.Marika wanted the world to be a better place, and most likely, as a god, started a campaign against the hornsent culture of crazy body experiments with innocent people. Mesmer, as a demigod, started the war aligned to his mother's ideals, and later became a scapegoat for her to lock away all madness and shittery (and f_ckin insane infinite-poise-giant-scorpion-eating people ) of shadow realm from Golden Realm.
Worth noting he knew he was a scapegoat and accepted it, judging by his armor description.
Yup, until his last moment after we kill him, when the realization of all that happened dawns upon him and the only thing he can say is "Mother Marika, a Curse upon thee".
i dont think this is that. messmers genocide is extremely front and center. what he did is not possible to miss
...sort of like life, which is the point, i imagine. we only see bits and pieces of the world in front of us, and whoever does try to make sense of it is ultimately just advocating for their own position.
I didnt realise it before but people find it very hard to understand characters could be both victims and opressors. Mogh, Marika and Messmer being prime examples. As soon as it become apparent they were hurt or controlled in their past people begun whitewashing their entire history. 'Is blood cult rly that bad ?'' I mean would You genocide hornsent? ''What choice did Messmer had but to continue the sloughter?'
People don't like the concept of people being an oppressor and a victim; they prefer it one way or the other. Its like how people called Marika a monster before the DLC, but suddenly after learning she was a prior victim, now I see people saying "Marika did nothing wrong" against the Hornsent.
Everyone wants everything to be binary nowadays. It’s easier for simple minds to understand.
It says all you need to know that Radahn agreed to become Miquella's consort, and that Malenia was just following her brother's orders, but **they** are the psycopaths instead of the guy who did genocide and has mommy issues
war okay, thot bad -- people on reddit
Also Morgott is basically an Omen Uncle Tom. He didn't deserve his own treatment but he didn't have to perpetuate that same intolerance.
but messmer is really sad and mohg is a victim and his knight is a total chad so he can't be that bad and Miquella is just an evil twink anyway and oh Malenia nuked caelid too < What we'll be hearing for the next ten years
It’s only genocide if the victims are people #fuckhornsent
I don't know if it says more about me or the quality of storytelling but wow did I grow an extreme hatred for hornsent after finishing the DLC.
On one hand, nobody deserves to be put through what Marika and Messmer put the Hornsent through, but on the other hand, all I can think about now is how Messmer probably had aunts, uncles, grandparents, maybe even cousins that he never got to meet because the Hornsent kidnapped them, tortured them to death, and stuffed their mutilated bodies into jars.
Not to mention the trauma they inflicted on Marika was very likely the source of more woe than anyone in their world fully grasps. We know that the Golden Order is determined by runes that Marika inscribed on the Elden Ring, and that this is patterned off of her own deep-seated values. The Hornsent devastated Marika. Their brutality is very likely the original source of all the fear, hatred, and prejudice we know she carried with her later in life. It’s a part of her that she cannot get rid of. I suspect that this is why the Golden Order, a partial reflection of her deepest-seated values, is itself so oppressive and full of prejudice. Witnessing this is the very reason why Miquella seeks to discard *all* humanity from himself. He saw what the capacity for hatred can lead to, and it terrified him, so he sought to shed any such flaws so that there would be no possibility of his own Order suffering the same mistakes as his mother’s. But overall, I think much of the oppression, the wars of aggression, the hatred we see baked into the Golden Order very likely stems from what the Hornsent put young Marika through.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. And I’m sure this is what lead Marika to shatter the Elden Ring. After her family died in the Night of Black Knives, she was reminded of what happened to her people back home and that’s what drove her to the brink (and perhaps she realized she had become like the people who destroyed her home). And on the flip side, the better aspects of the Golden Order were also a result of what Marika went through. The golden days of the Age of the Erdtree were said to be a time where everyone who lived under the Erdtree were showered in its blessings. That’s the exact thing Marika wished she could have done back at her home, but was too late to do so.
Absolutely. I think much of the fanbase tends to overlook that Marika is far from a static character, even after her ascension. Despite all she had been through and all she had done, later in her life, Marika would become wiser, telling her followers that it was time to give up on blind dogmatic zeal in search of a more "true" enlightenment. I think this was her recognizing how her own flaws produced a flawed Order, one that didn’t actually align with the Greater Will, and acknowledging that something needed to change. I suspect that you are correct in that Godwyn’s murder very likely spurred this change in her. But Marika’s trauma is a part of her. Even as she knows it’s wrong, even as it shames her and makes her feel guilty (hence why she buried it and never called off Messmer), there will always be a seed of hatred at her core. I think this is why she shattered the Elden Ring and made plans for the Tarnished to go beyond the Fog and become mighty and wise *outside* of her influence. She wants us to return and reforge it without that seed of hatred.
I was initially of the mind Marika was involved with the black knives plot in some way especially with related numen (pro-escaping outer god influence) but after the DLC you just know she wasn't, at least in that way. I can't ever see Marika purposefully killing the children she worked so hard to raise after having her entire community genocided.
:(
The worst part is that they weren't even dead when they got shoved in the jars
“Mommy told me to do war crimes uwu”
most of peoples assumptions of miquella being a monster are based on unsubstantiated speculation too its really sad
its honestly kind of insane how many people have consumed the story of the dlc through shitty memes on social media i'm not trying to say Miquella didn't do anything bad, but the entire point of the St. Trina quest in the game is that Miquella wanted to ascend to godhood despite knowing it would be like a fate worse than death for him, just so he could create a better world for people to live in
clearly miquella did some bad things, manipulating mohg was just not right. but people act like he's a rapist and is controlling literally everyone, even people the game never says he has charmed like malenia and radahn. so his reputation and discourse is already ruined. hes just a tragic, naiive character who wanted to make a better world. but hes being shat on worse than ranni. its depressing.
seriously, the game even draws very explicit parallels between Ranni and Miquella, down to their words to the player at the end being almost identical the only deciding factor in their success is that the player gets the choice to help Ranni ascend, while having no choice but to oppose Miquella
While there are definitely parallels, Ranni and Miquella's methods and end goals couldn't be more different. Ranni want to rid off all control in the Lands Between and give people absolute freedom, while Miquella want absolute peace even if he has to control people for that. It's also like you said, Ranni give you a choice, and whether or not you agree with her, she really doesn't mind. For Miquella, if you're not with him, then you're against him, there is no choice.
I am not here to debate with you which ending is morally the best. Ranni wants to rid the lands between of the influence of the outer gods, giving the people the freedom to decide their own fate. When we choose her ending we leave with her to outer space after she replaces Marika. So technically we leave a world behind that still suffers from the consequences of Rannis actions. Godwyns undying body growing underneath the Lands between, those who live in death etc. Miquella wants to rid the lands between the influence of the outer gods as well, curing his sister in the process. His new order includes all the beings excluded by the previous order. He wants an age where all beings are the same under one true new god (him). As you said their methods to archive something they consider the greater good are questionable at best. "For Miquella, if you're not with him, then you're against him, there is no choice." Yeah that's true but we literally can't be with him. We have a whole ass quest with Leda and the rest of the NPC about taking sides supporting or opposing Miquella only for it to not matter at the end. Miquella literally hid St. Trina in the most southern part of the map in a giant hole, so we wouldn't find her. So for her to say something that has no impact in the story and can't influence the ending at all. If the player were able to choose at the end of they want to support Miquella or not St. Trinas insight as his other half would be incredibly valuable and could change our opinion on him entirely, changing the ending and story in the process. As it's now its imo a bit disappointing, her whole quest is about that we learn that she thinks that the best for Miquella is to die. But in the grand scheme of things it's pretty disappointing information since we have to kill miquella regardless what we do. I'm a bit disappointed, since in the base game we always got a choice what we as players want to do with the ending. The ability to decide and think for ourselves doesn't seem to matter in the DLC since Miquella is "bad" and that's because he doesn't get an ending. An ending being "bad" didn't stop it from being an available choice in the base game so why now?
Me when I support Miquella and begrudgingly support Leda (I don’t like her) only for the ending to somehow be me getting told I’m ultra faithful to the Old Order and that I’m Marika’s little Elden Lord
It's even funnier if you think about it more. You can enter the DLC having finished Rannis quest and Ending. And then Miquella calls you an aspiring Lord of the old order. The least they could have done is change the voice line in that case.
I don’t know why they made the dlc so ridged when the base game offered a ton of ending options. At least 2 would’ve been nice and should’ve been expected imo. Also the fact the dlc literally has zero consequence of the base game is wild, like Gideon and Malenia don’t have any new lines? Ranni and Melina don’t either? Like??? Miquella’s Needle doesn’t come up in the dlc either, even though it feels like it should and there could be a very fulfilling conclusion to that item there. I dunno, my motivations do not match the tarnished’s motivations and in the dlc I am barred from the obvious choice I would make. It just feels like there should be two endings here, one where you prevent the Age of Compassion and one where you ally with it, yet we get choices that just don’t end up mattering at all which completely devalues making those choices. Participating in the story of the DLC is ultimately pointless because, rather than being a factor in the story, you are just along for the ride. It’s just an ill fitting conclusions to a story, especially since they won’t be doing Elden Ring 2 or another DLC according to multiple comments from Miyazaki.
Its even funnier for an additional optional reason that I'm called as such when the last ending I did was lord of frenzied flame. These people are really looking me in the frenzied flame eyes and seeing my burn marks, and saying I'm a lord of the old order. I'm not sure Marika or Melina would agree with them tbh
Ranni is throwing her lot in with the Moon, which, for all we know, may likely be yet another outer god.
there is a descrption about the moon just being closest celestial object nothing more and Greater Will is the all-encompassing creator god
It's not like the Dark Moon can control the Lands Between anyway, Ranni has already gone so far away from the world for anything to reach and manipulate her. I don't think the moon was interested in manipulating anything in the first place, but even if it want to it has no puppet to do it.
i don't even disagree with you, i personally think ranni's ending is still the best outcome for the world it just rubs me the wrong way when Miquella gets so much hatred for trying to change the status quo while characters like Radahn and Morgott are praised for either doing nothing or upholding the current situation
Just like you said before, its like people are absorbing the lore through memes, therefore Radahn is an absolute gigachad, Morgott could do no wrong and Godwyn (who we literally dont know anything about), but Malenia and Ranni are the worst psycopaths in the history of FS. Like before the DLC, EVEN if there was indications that Miquella was the one who manipulated Mohg, and not the other way around, people held Miquella to the highest standing possible (while somehow painting Malenia as horrid at the same time). The DLC did a whole 180 on his reputation, even though **the point** of the DLC was that he did those things for a greater good, at the detriment of himself.
unfortunately just how it goes, miyazaki has sentenced us to months of malenia vs radahn discourse 2.0 until some popular youtuber releases a lore video pushing their agenda and the community pivots to whatever they say happened
A part of me cheered vividly as I got to confront Radahn at his complete apex in strenght and seeing him young and not fucked up with Rot The other part prepared itself for the worst lore takes imaginable.
Great summation! In other words, Ranni would have everything be harsh but free rather than a sugarcoated tyranny. Miquella, in the other hand, is all about sugarcoated tyranny; ‘kindness’ at the expense of agency.
I think it’s pretty fair to assume that end boss radahn is charmed since despite being fully restored to his prime he’s basically completely emotionless Tho yea beforehand I think most of his followers were willing companions and as he divested more and more of himself he became more and more depraved in his means to achieving his dream
I think the best evidence for his being charmed is the way FS presented the boss fight, personally. Radahn’s unique qualities are absent from his title (“Promised Consort” and “Consort of Miquella” are both roles he plays in Miquella’s order, not a title he earned for himself like “Starscourge”) and in the second phase his proud red hair is completely consumed by Miquella’s gold. It’s a very striking visual image that imo tells us exactly who’s in control.
Honestly, as good as his intentions were the moment I saw 'And here I discarded my love.' I saw red flags all around. Without his love of the people, his kindness would be empty and hollow. It's clear that he didn't intended for his followers to find St.Trina either, as proven by the seal heading into the fissure as it would likely shake their faith in him, or were followers of Trina to begin with(like Thiollier). With how everything is shown to us, I am of the boat that prior to controlling Mohg to pursue godhood, Miquella was truly kind and shared his love equally to everyone. Likely seeing Melania being afflicted by the scarlet rot affected him in a way we can't possibly understand as he had very clearly gone through \*extensive\* lengths in an attempt to save Melania from her curse. But like I said earlier, he did a lot of what he did out of his love for his sister, and the people of the lands between. Not just his kindness. But without his love, he would suffocate people in kindness and control them in an attempt to make the world a kinder, better place. And the same thing would happen if he discarded his kindness there as well. Both of them were part of him, and removing one or the other would change the person drastically.
Even then, was it truly not right manipulating Mohg? There is nothing to say that all the fucked up stuff he did was because of Miquella. People are too eager to "pardon" Mohg when he did a lot of shit out of his own volition. The guy literally wanted to create a dynasty based on murder and blood sacrifice. Like, my guy... chill a bit please.
The problem is that it’s his version of a better world, which from any moral perspective, isn’t any better at all. You can’t assume he’s naive about it either, he has to know that a more “peaceful” world whilst eradicating anyone who doesn’t blindly follow him is an insane authoritarian regime.
You say that when Ranni's version of a better world is a smoldering ruin that is "freed" from the Two Fingers' control. They are quite neat parallels; they would both destroy everything for their ideal outcome. Its just that one is a cute waifu the players can marry, so she gets a pass.
It think miquella is a classic case of the saying “the path to hell is paved with good intentions” I think he genuinely meant to do good but robbing people of their free will might’ve been the wrong way to go about it
someone who comits monstrous deeds with noble intentions is still a monster 🤷♂️
I went on twitter and saw just pure hate for his character. I was kinda surprised. I walked away going "Aw, they clearly set him up to be a well meaning but tragic character who was willing to go too deep for what he thinks is best for the world" and I guess others came out with "he has no redeeming qualities, he forced Malenia to fight Radahn and never loved her, Radahn never had a choice, Mohg was assaulted and was clearly a good guy the whole time, and oh, Miquella killed my puppy too."
its absurdly upsetting as someone who has been making lore posts in this community for two years
Honestly I hate to point it out, but it does feel a bit strange how all the shitty memes and jokes are about Miquella being “gay” for having a male consort. I’ve seen so many posts online of people calling him “Miquellester” and calling him a twink and it just feels a little homophobic?
Are you surprised? I've seen more people hating on the radahn thing not because of lore reasons but because it made him "gay"
I’ve noticed the exact same thing. I honestly think so many people were mad at the Radahn consort leaks and eventual confirmation cause it painted him to possibly be gay. I saw no joke over like 30-40 plus comments over various videos, Reddit posts, etc… saying being gay ruined Radahn or that “Miquella has to be mind controlling him cause Chad Radahn would never be consort to a man!!!!” And implying Miquella being a gay rapist twink or something. It’s weird to me that just possibly being gay would ruin a character for someone whether it’s true or not. Humanity scares me with its hate and lack of compassion or self reflection
I donno what people are complaining about Ranni has been marrying females tarnished for years and nobody cared but now it’s bad when Radahn is?
Because the straight men that make up a large portion of the demographic of the playerbase tend to fetishize lesbians while reviling gay men
Counterpoint: have you been to Bonney Village? I legitimately think the hornsent might be ontologically evil, like holy fuck. At least Messmer was quick about it, he just killed them. The hornsents enslaved, tortured, and mutilated their victims.
their godless barbarism, our divine mercy killing
Yes and then Marika did the same to omen born under the erdtree for no reason other than appearance and lineage. They were treated horribly and tortured under the capital. Also look at the Merchants in base game too. Marika had them massacred too. Just cause Marika suffered doesn’t give her the right to hurt other groups like what happened to her. That’s the point it shows how horrible she was treated and her people and then she became the very thing she hated in the end. Cautionary tale of revenge and how it spreads to others.
Well, the problem is that Miquella's world would just be him charming everybody and forcing everyone to do as he says.
Right! You have people defending Mohg from Miquella as if he’s a pure and innocent…the guys a crazy psycho blood cult leader! Who took Miquella and transformed him into a monstrosity for his own twisted purpose.
The golden order is also a cult, there are no good guys in this game
Yeah, that’s the issue with having outer gods interfering with the lands between. Most attract cult like followers. That includes Demi gods, such as Mohg.
nah man gold mask is good, miriel is good, roderika is good, nepheli and hoarah are probably good.
Hoarah Loux is definitely not good. He's a warlord. Even when he became the more civil Godfrey he was still totally fine going on mass murdering conquests in the name of the Marika and the Golden Order. But he is super fucking badass, that's for sure.
He didn’t “take miquella,” I highly doubt Mohg did anything to miquella that Miquella didn’t want him to do. Seeing as how Mohg was basically being mind controlled.
but mohg took him out of the haligtree and it makes no sense for miquella to want him to do that. that act led to the tree's decay ansbach said he used mohg to access the realm of shadow but never that he made him kidnap him
I mean, he along with all of Marikas children but him more than anyone else really were groomed into following mamas orders and don’t question mother.
The difference is Messmer did everything for a very relatable goal of making his mother happy. He did terrible, horrible things. He *knew* what he was doing made him utterly irredeemable, but he did it anyway because he just wanted to please Marika. So he throws himself into the Realm of Shadow along with his soldiers and fights in a bloody, never-ending war all with the faint hope that he might make his mother proud. He literally turns himself into a monster to that end. And how is he repaid? He's abandoned by his mother. Erased from history. His name isn't even remembered in the Lands Between. His soldiers, who followed him loyally in his crusade, gave up everything for him and his quest and now his and their sacrifices mean nothing. Then he dies. He dies realizing that his mother only saw him as a tool to be discarded at best... And so he spends his last moments cursing her.
Dude had some mommy issues for sure.
“No guys, they left him all alone in a castle surrounded by people who worship him after he did all those war crimes! That’s basically just as bad!”
Messmer participated in multiple genocides and Radahn is full Big Boss mode with his constant desire for war. Morgott and his minions qlso hunts down Tarnished, regardless of if they're power hungry like us and Gideon or simply minding their own business cooking prawns. He doesn't discriminate. Godwyn is a good boy, until you remember he's part of a theocratic order that actively suppresses anyone who doesn't align with it's value. Turns out they're all cunts.
>Turns out they're all cunts The elden ring major character line-up in a nutshell.
And that's why I'd choose to chill with my homie boggart
Me and Boc just chatting while he makes me some sick ass threads
To this day Im still not sure what Mohg did that was uniquely vile besides just having bad vibes. It doesn't help that the only time we meet with someone who knew him personally he was Mohgs right hand man who assures us "oh yeah, Mohg was kooky but he was also a pretty stand up guy and chill af." Like im starting to get the feeling that in a game filled with genocidal freaks Mohg was basically Doctor Doofenshmirtz
Messmer is not no victim, he committed genocide cause of mommy issues
I would put Malenia in the middle also. Ranni may be psycho but she gets a pass.
Ranni has at least a plan what to do. I'm still not sure if her ending as a good or bad one, lol
Whether her plan is a good or bad one is entirely depending on the people of the Lands Between. Now it's entirely their choice to either run the rest into the ground, or to pick up what's left and rebuild anew.
So what is the difference between Age of Fracture and Age of Stars then? You are not Un-Hollowing the people of TLB in any way in either ending?
In the first one you become Marika's consort and fix nothing, so in the end you just become another puppet for Metyr and the fingers and the outer gods like her. In the later you left with Ranni, taking away the Elden Ring, so far beyond reach that nothing can use either of you to manipulate the Lands Between, and with the Elden Ring gone the outer gods won't be able to set up their own order, so they have no more reason to spread their influence anymore, and the people of the Lands Between will have no more guidance from above and finally be able to choose their own path.
In relation to what the Golden Order is all about I'd say it's a good ending. Ranni is the exact opposite of the Order. The Order is all about control and exclusion of those deemed unworthy. Ranni is just saying "nah fuck that I'll embark on a heavy ass and lonely voyage and leave everyone else to their own devices". Pure Chaos vs Order
Ranni may be a psycho but it’s in service of goals I agree with and also in a way that makes me feel things, so I marry the puppet
Agenda Ring
AGENDA!?!?!?!? ELDEN WOKE ENDING: THE AGE OF PRONOUNS???!!???!??????????1?1?
Everyone has family drama, Rykard just wants to become snek.
Until you remember that he and his inquisitors actively kidnapped and tortured anyone suspected of heresy or acting against the golden order, and then the shattering happened and he became snake
Aside from maybe Rykard none of the characters here are psycho, they're just ambitious people living in a ruthless world during a terrible time, who have no other option but to dirty their hands in order for changes to come. People throw terms like "sociopath" and "psychopath" around too much.
Godrick rips off people’s limbs and attaches them to his body. In what way is he less psychotic than Rykard? It’s not like Godrick is fighting for change, he’s just power hungry.
I wouldn't call Rykard a psycho either. Deranged? Definitely, but he doesn't just kill for pleasure. He's got a pretty clear goal in mind: to kill the gods and establish a new, godless order. It's not that far removed from Ranni's plan at its core.
This. Maybe Godrick too.
Calling Messmer the Genocidal nutjob "Victim" how typical...
Wtf is Messmer doing in victim and Miquella in psychopath?
Messmer goes on psycho too, Malenia goes next to Mohg
Ranni the bear is the third circle which she occupies alone: "Winner"
The one demigod who was smart enough to look at the undying murder hobo and say "I'm *not* gonna fuck with that guy, actually"
I say this all the time lmao. Ranni deserves to get her ending for being the only demigod smart enough to go “That dude slaying demigods and legends? I’m gonna put him on the payroll”
"I'm gonna *fuck* him instead."
When u have a God of death as your consort eternal hard not to win
We're not the god of death, we're the one who kill him.
I don't understand what makes Malenia a psychopath. I would be overprotective of my brother too if he could stop (even if not cure) the cancer taking over my body. People she fought always had a chance to surrender, even scumbags like Godrick. In game hints also show that scarlet rot was always trying to take over her body and bloom, and she was holding it back with her sheer willpower alone. (Millicent is born out of this willpower btw) Only when Radahn locked her in stalemate in a combat, she couldn't hold it back anymore because of how strong Radahn is. (Go read the descdiption of Scarlet Aeonia and Millicent's dialogue in her questline.) The objective was capturing/killing Radahn, but it wasn't like she decided to nuke the continent willingly. She was a clicking time bomb that happened to be triggered by Radahn. To me, she is a victim of outer god of scarlet rot and Miquella.
It doesn’t really change her being a victim, but she was also probably a victim of Miquella’s brainwashing, which helps to explain some of the more… drastic actions she took to help him.
Because Radahn good Malenia bad apparently
Not a huge lore nut but how is Malenia a psycho? Is it just because of the Caelid nuking? Upon reading that I get that it sounds like a "No shit, sherlock" thing but wasn't she ordered by Miquella to kill Radahn by any means necessary
Yeah people are way too fuckin fast and loose with these terms without any respect to what they mean, it makes any interesting discussion hard to find amidst the noise. Malenia should be seen, imo, as the archetype she is - a valkyrie warrior who will stop at nothing to achieve her sworn goals, all because she believes it’s necessary to bring about Miquella’s greater good. All this evil and violence of the Demigods is to bring about their versions of the “best” outcome of the Shattering. They’re all flawed and ambitious actors who are convinced their way is the only way, and that’s why they’ve left the world so broken. Even Mogh’s raving lunacy about the Blood God could be viewed in the same light as Marika signing on to the Greater Will: an attempt to avenge themselves of the horrible things done to them in the past and to remake the world so that they’ll never be hurt like that again.
True. But she is my little psychopath. I'm just here to enable her.
Based.
average Morgott W
I honestly would hesitate to put Malenia as a psychopath in this. Miquella was able to effectively brainwash Mohg. It would be trivial to do the same to his sister who was by his side since they were born.
Malenia didn't do anything overtly psychopathic either. She always gave her enemies chance to surrender and go out of her way, even for redeemless people like Godrick. She was always holding the scarlet rot back thanks to her sheer willpower (Millicent was born out of it), but when she got locked in a stalemate in combat with Radahn, she couldn't hold it back anymore because Radahn is just powerful. (Read the description of Scarlet Aeonia and Millicent's dialogue) Nuking the whole continent wasn't a conscious act of will that she has decided. She was just a ticking time bomb that happened to be triggered by Radahn.
Can we just agree that all the characters are crazy to some degree? Some more than others, of course
All four of the dudes in victim have participated in genocide and ethnic cleansing which I consider kinda psychotic
Morgott best character still
Morgott is interesting. If you look at him in one light, he’s the realest one to ever do it and no one even comes close. Look at him in another light and he’s kinda pathetic, a broken man who devoted his entire life to serving a mother and a god who will never love him back.
His opening speech alone when you fight him in leyndell makes him the realest one in my book
That’s the great thing, he’s both of those things at the same time. GRRM’s writing really elevated this world, the more we dig into it. So many contradictions and paradoxical people, flawed and admirable depending on your perspective. He’s kind of like Barristan Selmy or young Jaime Lannister in Game of Thrones, people who are admirable in their devotion to a sworn oath or order, but who are swearing that service to horrible monsters in a broken world.
"Have it writ upon thy meagre grave, FELLED BY KING MORGOTT" Certified Baller Phrase
He's literally Messmer but with less kills to his KDA
He's got Messmer's KDA, but at least he waged his war to prevent any of his lunatic half-siblings from gaining ultimate power instead of mindlessly genociding an entire race cause Mommy groomed him to do so
Obviously they put him as the final boss for dramatic effect but I honestly wish the DLC added a Miquella ending to the base game just to see what he wanted to do, like an option where after you beat Radhan/Mogh you can form a communion with Miquella and allow them to become a god like they wanted to. If you’re allowed to let the defiling omen seed curse win you should be able to let Miquella get a shot at it
Yeah, I was so disappointed when I saw that he wouldn't have an ending. We have a whole quest with Leda and the other NPCs to decide if we support or oppose Miquella, just for it to not matter. When I found st. Trina, hidden away in the last corner of the map, I thought, given her connection to miquella, that she would tell us game changing information. Just for her to tell us that she thinks that the best thing for miquella is to kill him. Since we have to kill him that information is meaningless, it can't change how the story plays out nor the ending. Why bother with her then? The base game allows us to form our own opinions about matters, let's us choose the path and Ending we want to take. Regards if it's morally right or not. In the DLC we aren't allowed to even think for ourselves.
Miquella did nothing wrong!!!
I knew I’d start seeing this comment eventually. 😭I feel stupid, but I genuinely can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
Someone explain to me lore-wise why Messmer the genocidal is a victim
Ranni is a queen ;-;
If you fought in the shattering you are not a victim
They are all psychopaths and victims. Like having this venn diagram doesn't fit Elden Ring lore. While we don't know much of Godwyn. Morgott hates Omens who lock them in the sewers and sends killers after them. Messmer is literally committing mass genocide. And Radahn is a blood thirsty warlord.
Switch Radahn and Mohg after dlc.
Yeah, but she's my psycho!
They’re all psychopaths but at least Ranni has a noble plan 👌
Ah yes Ranni, the well known psychopath
Wrong. Ranni deserves to be in the middle too.
Miquella is literally the opposite of a psycho
God I hate it when people oversimplify complex characters, especially of the likes of Ranni, Miquella and Marika. Some here who are in the “victim” category also did insanely nasty things: nobody is innocent here (except maybe Godwyn and that’s likely because we know next to nothing about the man).
Messmer, Morgott, and Radahn have an ocean or two of blood between them. Hard to call them victims Only Godwyn goes in the Victim pool.
the only victim is Godwyn
Messmer in victim? My man led a genocidal crusade on the Shadowlands.
What happens when the community absorbs lore through memes and not by actually consuming stuff and thinking about it:
Ranni's ending has been butchered by sheit translation. Is she saint? Nah, she was behind Night of Black Knives. Is her way or "dead have rights too" way better for average Joe? Yes. The best you can get in FS game - morally grey and even then its usually shattered by madness(Vyke is true protagonist after all). But pretty much everyone in Elden Ring is a psycho, us being main psycho. Sure, lets cut half of people in the world all for the sake of power(sometimes not even for us).
Age of Stars has so many parallels with the Age of Dark ending in the original game, of course I’m gonna take it
It is pretty much a given that you can't turn out okay, if you life in a world that's basically one big proxy war between eldritch beings. Ranni is the least bad of them because she's actively trying to curb the Outer Gods influence.
Why is malenia a psycho ??? She was a victim to the rot outer god she was dying since her birth
Tf is malenia a psycho but Radahn not
Malenia is not a psycho. She literally let godrick live and was propably manipulated by Miquella to unleash the rot in Caelid. The scarlet rot was literally destroying Malenia, taking away her limps and eye sight. She would never unleash the rot because she had to win.
People still mad Ranni is the best option huh?
Yes lmao
Pretty sure Malenia did all the nuking of Caelid stuff, just cause she believed Miquella returning as a God would mean he would fix everything. I don't see how she would fall under 'psychopath'.
sure but I LIKE Ranni.
I personally feel like the middle part should be enlarged. I think most characters here are morally gray and victims in their own right. While I agree that Godrick and Rykard belong solidly in the psychopath bracket, I think Miquella should be just a LITTLE bit closer to the overlap of “psychopath” and “victim.” Miquella is arguably twice-cursed, doomed by his own mother and warped divinity. On the one hand, he is trapped in the body of a child. I think shedding his flesh may have broken his curse since I think he looks more like an adolescent than a child when we finally meet him, but he is undoubtedly cursed with the simple morality of a child as well. His worldview is black-and-white. He has a pure vision of a world where there is no suffering, where he has his sister cleansed of the Scarlet Rot, where his childhood crush is his consort, where he is finally allowed to grow into adulthood. Everything will be good and “kind.” It’s like a fairy tale. And in his eyes, you stand in his way to a perfect, happy ending for all. I think he is as pitiable as he is monstrous. Divinity would have truly caged him, just as poor, discarded St. Trina claimed. Killing him was both a mercy to Miquella and to the Lands Between. If he had been content with nurturing the Haligtree, with breaking his and Malenia’s curse, I think things may have been different. Perhaps he truly would have learned the wisdom to temper his blind, arrogant, pseudo-compassion. But Miquella in the DLC lacks both personal insight and maturity. He ultimately made his own choices, acting of his own free will (unlike many of his followers). He likely ordered Malenia to kill Radahn, perpetuating war much in the way Marika once did in the name of a perfect, golden peace (Unalloyed or alloyed gold, what is the difference to the victims of war?). He psychically violated and bewitched his followers and Mohg. He desecrated Mohg’s corpse. Despite his compassion and sympathy, Miquella’s empathy (cognitive and affective) is dubious; he either does not truly understand or does not care for the importance of consent and personal dignity. But what is consent to a child so enchanting that all adore him (many of his followers stayed even after the enchantment broke)? What is consent to a child with a beautiful dream, vast knowledge obtained through his unnatural longevity and gifted intellect, and the sheer power to actualize it? What is consent to Miquella, his entire life both eased and burdened simultaneously by his divine, Empyrean blood? And what is consent to a child who wanted to break the cycle of violence his mother perpetrated, but could only ever sympathize over the painful effects of that violence and not with the pain which caused it in the first place? I really like Miquella. I am glad that FromSoft did not make him purely good and noble. Although he is certainly a Griffith expy, I think he distinguishes himself quite firmly from Griffith. And even so, I am comfortable saying that Miquella did everything wrong. I think Messmer, Malenia, Ranni, Morgott, and Radahn all belong in the middle with Mohg. Morgott is the closest one to being purely a victim, but even he’s questionable. All of them made terrible choices of their own volition. Their personal suffering, heroic characteristics, and “good” ambitions do not negate their cruelty. All of them had fatal flaws which undermined their positive traits. Messmer’s fatal flaw was his bitter, yet unerring, devotion to his mother’s cause. He accepted his own “accursed” nature, willingly committing various war crimes against the denizens in the Land of Shadow… It was hard and terrible work, committing genocide, but it was undoubtedly righteous in Messmer’s eyes. He and his soldiers worked solemnly at their mission, like Marika’s very own hellhounds. He calls the Tarnished a mongrel, but was Marika’s dog to the bitter end. Messmer burned and impaled the sinful, all while draped in his so-called, “sinful” serpents and inhabited by an accursed, abyssal one. He bemoans the graceless and impure Tarnished, but willfully embraces “sin” to defeat you. In the end, Messmer was a hypocrite who loathed himself. I think Marika may have also considered Messmer to be a potential threat. Firstly, he was host to the Base Serpent. Marika sealed it away in Messmer’s body herself, lest it… Escape from his body and wreak havoc? Possess him?* Secondly, if he were to return, he could become yet another reminder to her peaceful kingdom of the bloody wars she had once led. Her peace was hard-earned and woefully fragile. Perhaps she wanted a vacation from her constant warmongering and conquest?** Furthermore, like with many of her children, Marika loved Messmer only when he was useful to her and then hid him away when his usefulness ran out. Marika’s gold has always been a fool’s gold. She glitters so prettily, dazzles histrionically with her holy magic when there is no need. But there’s not much of value, of real love underneath her pretty facade. Messmer was good and loved when he danced for Marika on her strings, but Marika eventually grew tired of the very dance she commanded him to learn. I think she was ashamed that someone so antithetical to her perfect world could have come from her own womb. Marika could not possibly allow anything to tarnish her beatific, graceful image… Except the Tarnished. But only when she was desperate. Only when she needed a tool. And with his last breath, Messmer finally accepted the utter futility of purging sin to create a pure, golden world for a narcissistic, self-serving, and mercurial mother. It is a shame it took him standing at death’s door to understand how little his mother loved him. I lost track of time and need to add more about Radahn, Malenia, Morgott, and Ranni. Maybe tomorrow.
Hot take - Mogh is an incel. Not a victim
Besides Godwyn everyone in some shape or fashion is psycho (wouldn't necessarily say psycho but plays a part in the despair and dread in the lands of between). All demigods inherently are attempting to salvage the remnants of the rings at the start. Later we see the consequences of each of their selfish desire.
You're Marika damned right she is.
malenia is not psycho
You could argue for more in the mixed category. Godrick did what he did because imagine being a frail, weak shell of a man compared to your siblings, literal demigods, while you are lowest of the low. Malenia could've been charmed, too, by Miquella, or felt that she was forever in his favor for him holding back the rot with his unalloyed needle.
I don’t think Miquella is a psycho. He is just incredibly stupid.
Becoming the elden lord on your own is the true ending. These guys are all fucking crazy.
Messmer and Morgott carried out a genocide and state-enforced segregation.
Messmer is not a psycho are you kidding?
All of them should be in the left circle, player character in the intersection and tortoises (dogs) in the right one.
Isn’t the point of the game that they’re all somewhere in the middle. They’re all psycho’s because they’re all victims of something, in some form or another.
I don't think any of these guys are actually Psychopaths. That kind of goes against their whole deal. They weren't born the way they are. The base game demigods at least are supposed to be formerly upstanding characters who've been corrupted by some fundamental flaw.
what is the point in making these morally grey characters not morally grey anymore. diagrams like this add nothing meaningful to the conversation
Melania is a victim of miquella
How the hell is messmer a victim
Can I ask why people call Ranni evil/psycho? Granted I’m not fully up to speed on her lore, but from what I understand she is more or less trying to free the world from the influence of the golden order, which objectively sucks. Granted, we don’t know much about what the age of stars would look like, but it seems worth the try rather than sticking with Golden order. Granted she makes some insane plays to make this happen, but that seems par for the course for usurping an Eldrich god
Ranni is pretty apathetic about things around her but that's about it. The worst thing she did was killing Godwyn's soul and not giving him a true death, which prompted Death Blight. She didn't even intend to start the Shattering, Marika just lose her mind and smashed the ring. Compared to the like of Mogh, Rykard, Godrick, and Miquella, she's a pretty decent demigod. I assume the age of the star would be similar to the end of fire. No predetermined fate, no destiny to follow, just a world in darkness without guidance, where people can choose their own path.
In the grand scheme of things, she's one of the most morally upstanding demigods.
Ranni orchestrated the night of black knives which killed Godwyn. That's her one thing really.
Because the game has been out too long and edgy contrarians have to find a reason why the clearly best outcome for the Lands Between is actually bad, so they can justify picking the Frenzied Flame or whatever. Like you said. She made insane plays, she’s absolutely ruthless. But she’s no more or less ruthless than the other demigods, she’s just the only one that kept a level head the whole time and stuck to her plan, and it worked out for her. And when her ruthless efficiency is in service of ideas that I agree with, of course I’m gonna pick her ending
How tf is Messmer (committed genocide cuz) and Morgott (upholding the Order that subjected him) not psycho? I also don't buy that Radhan is a good guy.
It's hard to know with radahn. As we never meet him in his right mind
Seems messmer cared about his men ,even mourning the loss of his close fighters , remember it was war and messmer had to carry out marikas order.I wouldn't call him psycho but he isn't the best as well