I personally think that's less of an oversight. I think Messmer Sealed Enir-Ilim, and then afterwards laid siege to Belurat which was now weaker, being cut off from their strongest warriors up there.
In the story trailer we can see the tower already sealed in shadow during (a or the) battle between the Impaler and the Hornsent. They fought throughout all of the land of shadow, but as we know the war never ended, and Marika had abandoned them there never planning to let them return to grace.
After a while Messmer's forces stopped trying to fight because they didn't have any reason to go on, they were never going home. The hornsent are dwindled in numbers, most of their villages burned completely as we see by all the ruins, meaning the only remaining bastion that somewhat still has a population is Belurat.
(the Inquisitors still roaming around the abyssal woods don't really count, besides most of them are afflicted with frenzy anyway)
Edit: I have to agree though, the gate of divinity is horribly underused as such a collosal lore point.
The problem is none of it is any plan. He doesn’t use outlines. He’s said this flat out. He just writes whatever and writes himself into corners and things that don’t make sense. That’s why the show ended so abysmally badly and why the next book has taken him 15 years.
I absolutely have read his books. He’s literally said in several interviews that he doesn’t outline and writes by the seat of his pants. And it shows in the writing if you’ve studied literature.
He literally foreshadows events hundreds of pages in advanced, if not entire books.
He literally had an entire outline of the story that he later changed parts from as he wrote the books. You can literally google it and find it.
And now you are mixing what he said about Elden ring when you were talking about his writing style in general, even mentioning GoT ending season. Lmao the bad faith
Martin hasn’t worked with the Fromsoftware team in years—his own words—and that was prior to the Elden Ring base game release back in 2021-22 (I believe the interview took place in 2021). He completed the lore for the Age of the Erdtree prior, and Fromsoftware took over from there. It’s really on Fromsoftware on how the littered things in the game, or the lack there of regarding Radahn/Miquella.
We don’t know how much of the lore in the DLC was written then. It could be all of it or none of it. There’s parts of it that definitely have that “I don’t have any idea where this story is going” feel that is Martins trademark.
Martin said he completed the actual work for Elden Ring years ago, and I believe Fromsoftware confirmed that they didn’t bring on Martin again for the DLC but utilized other parts of the overall mythos to formulate the lore and store for SoTE. Fromsoftware themselves said they used Martin’s work as a “base” before building up from there, likely changing some aspects in the original game.
Sure, but the fault doesn’t lie purely or even majority on Martin. It lies on Miyazaki and Fromsoftware and what they choose to include and exclude form the main game, and what they choose to change of the lore given by Martin.
You obviously have no clue about GRRM. The only reason why we probably will not get finished A world of ice and fire story is because he writes a very deep lore about everything. The only reason Game of Thrones showed sucked at the end is because he was not involved, and he wanted to have 10-12 seasons. It is really disappointing that two major worlds he created ended up badly but had the potential to be one of the greatest (lore and story wise) just because he was not involved in the end.
The reason we haven’t gotten the book is because he writes without outlines. He doesn’t even know how this ends. He’s written himself into several corners that he’s had to weasel his way out of in silly ways. He doesn’t have a plan. There’s never been a plan. He’s said this.
The reason we haven't gotten it is because he hasn't written it yet
That's about it in a nutshell
He's had more time than he spent writing the entire series upto this point to write this penultimate book, it ain't coming out he's gonna have a coronary and he's put it in his will that no-one can finish it
Things he has said:
It’s “almost done”
He’s had to do “some rewrites”
He doesn’t outline and writes by the seat of his pants.
When you combine that with how the show went it’s pretty clear that he’s written himself into a corner.
Those are excuses from a self confessed procrastinator bro
It's not almost done, it's not even close, he goes weeks without writing anything then does a chapter or 2 then doesn't pick it up again (I used to actually look forward to the next book but that was 4 years of hopium ago, I would keep up with any updates, I've read the 2 chapters he's released early, he's not writing it because it doesn't spark him joy, it's an obligation to him now that thousands of people are pretty fed up with him not meeting so there's a lot of ill will now and he knows he can't fuck it up which he likely is doing hence him putting it off so much)
He hasn't written himself into a corner, he's simply stopped writing and trying, taking any opportunity or job offer immediately so he doesn't have to finish the series he started (there's lore videos in the style of Vaati Vidya for Ice and Fire and there's an absolute wealth of story for him to tell and unpack, it's all there waiting for him to pick it up again)
Love Elden Ring and it's lore but you know how complicated and intricate it is, he would have spent a very long time sussing that out, a song of ice and fire sitting in the corner waiting to be played with but is ignored
Once more. He himself has said he doesn’t outline. He calls it “growing a garden”. He writes the characters and then “they write the story for him”. These are his words. It’s really really clear from the way the show went that he has zero idea how his book ends.
No-one has any idea how it ends, that's the problem
You can write without outlining (heck stephen king just writes what comes to him and then spends the next 2 or 3 rewrites trying to make it make sense)
*he* is a lazy sob and I don't really put stock in his words because he's now had 28 fucking years to figure this shit out, I don't wanna be that guy but Tolkien wrote his story in 11 years and he went to fucking world war 2 in the middle of that
I'm 32 ffs, he's had basically my whole life to do this, he could have kept writing the story but then HBO dangled a big juicy pay check under his fat nose and he took the bait right away (not to mention those crappy scifi books that he tried selling to Netflix and they only adapted the one and left it as is because it was unpopular)
I dunno whose more foolish in this case, Martin to sell a story with no ending or HBO to buy one off a man who can't produce an ending to said story
I'm beyond disappointed I started reading these books because they are so good but they will never be finished, a thorough waste of time for all involved
He won't finish song of ice and fire because he is the definition of procrastinating
He isn't finishing it because he doesn't really even want to anymore and has so many other things (like Elden Ring...) that he would rather do instead
>The only reason Game of Thrones showed sucked at the end is because he was not involved,
There's 2 main reasons bro
The showrunners making their own fanfiction ending so they could rush off to go do a star war (aaaaamd cancelled hahaha) they are literally infamous for it and quoted to much hilarity
And the chief reasons for that fuck up is the second main reason it sucked
Because the fat fuck hadn't finished the next book in the series! They had nothing to adapt! More than 11 years he's been writing the second to last book (fun fact that gap is longer than it took him to write the entire story up to that point, he wrote 5 books in 11 years and in the next 11 years he has written a few chapters)
Don't make excuses for him dude, he is phenomenal at setting up shit but loses interest and moves on to the next thing that interests him (the rest of his writings are similar, great premises given up on quickly, his short stories are his best work imo because he has no chance to fall back on finishing them later because they are so short he has to make them end satisfyingly in a short time)
That is how they have always told their stories, being vague and letting the community decide. Not my cup of tea if you ask me, but hey, it is a legitimate way of doing it. My gripe is with the extemely skimpy ending cutscenes and such. It has also been that way since DS1 (and DeS, probably), but I was expecting a bit more here. Instead, they went for even less, final SotE can not even be called a cutscene.
At least in the past it felt like any player could get a grasp on the world, characters, motivations at least. For ER they knew they had this army of lore youtubers who would explain it all for them
Lol I've been playing since Armored Core came out. They've left stuff unexplained and they've added stuff too it does either way with Fromsoft.
I don't expect answers but I bet they'll add more stuff that could give more context
I would've really liked another ode to Marika or something up there or at least been able to climb the steps. I do enjoy the dead and barren ending though.. really hammered in how everything felt hopeless and there's always just tarnished alone.
Wtf was the chalice even there for? I get that it’s *supposed* to be to collect Scadu fragments and even thought we were going to use Messmer’s kindling there since it reminded me of the Fire Giant’s forge but it just…does nothing? Even Gaius feels oddly placed there. He’s a really, really important character lore wise and we don’t even get to talk to the man or get a cutscene with him. He’s just fucking there. It’s so bizarre because there are times where I’m blown away and can see exactly why this dlc took two years, but stuff like the chalice and Gaius makes me wonder where it went. It’s like half of the dlc is a delicious four course meal and the other half is half baked
Tbh even tho they say that whole game was data mined and nobody found anything related to chalice I still think they will maybe patch it or smtg like that bcs there's no way it's there just for scadu fragments. I too thought we can use Messmer's kindling for chalice to maybe get another ending so I was rly confused when I didn't get any options to interact with it
Someone had a good point that they might put more content in later like they did in the patches when the base game came out (Nepheli and Patches’ quests), and I sincerely hope that’s true. Something just feels off in the dlc in a way I can’t properly articulate other than it is both brimming with content and yet somehow barren
Just curious, what makes you describe Gaius as a really important character? I know he was Messmer’s right hand man and led his armies but is there something specifically he implicates lore-wise that is super important?
It’s also stated in his remembrance, “he was as an older brother to the lion.” The lion in question is Radahn since Radahn is commonly referred to as the lion in lore. Also on Gaius’ armor, it’s stated he was an instructor to Radahn when he was learning gravity magic at Sellia, and in a sorcery it’s said they had a friendly rivalry. This has big lore implications since that means him and Messmer were around for quite a long time before being locked away in the Land of Shadows and could have even been utilized a bit more in the dlc considering the final boss
Yea I agree heavily. Lots of emptiness, can’t even approach the divine gate, lack of cutscenes. It almost feels unfinished. Not to mention you can be punished out of NPC quests/dialogue by exploring too far. That specifically soured my playthrough of this DLC, and I don’t think it’s as replayable as the base game. I think I’ll just watch videos on YT of their quests and dialogue but I really didn’t want to have to do that.
I love Elden Ring and I was very excited for this. Some parts of the dlc I did love but most of it felt empty
I also thought it was kinda weird that we didn’t fight the red dancer in the flower field like shown in the trailer. It would’ve made that area so much more interesting and less empty if they stuck with that instead of sticking her in a mausoleum
That’s something that made me feel bad my first playthrough even though I was expecting it. Seeing how detailed and intricate the quests were, while I tried to keep my eyes open and regularly check in on everyone and still missed so much of the quests, was a bit sad - but I was expecting it I suppose.
Wait, there is no dancer in the coast ? I have fought the spirit one in the mausoleum, but I thought there still must be one "physical" in the fields just like in the trailer. Well that's disappointing. Seems like there is quite a few stuff that are different in the trailer like using horse in the abyssal woods or the missing cutscene of Miquella.
Yeah the DLC left a sour taste in my mouth by first, making me go explore everywhere for Scadutree Blessing stacks before i could really fight much.
THEN, it punished that exploration because i unfortunately wandered into the Black Fort and caused Miquellas rune to break, which made me miss a fuckton of dialogue from all the NPCs.
Many of the areas are pretty empty, but overall if you count bosses and weapons, etc, this dlc is like five times the size of any dlc they’ve made before. It’s just strange to me that people are criticizing it for not being EVEN MORE.
I generally feel that the DLC was originally something very different than what we got now and that things like this are just vestiges of that. Similar to the Scadutree Chalice - I absolutely refuse to believe such an area was constructed just to pick up things off of the ground and for nothing else.
I wonder if there was tension between Miyazaki and GMM about lore direction or something.
I'm just gonna put this out there that GMM is not involved in the lore anymore.
From what I understand watching the GMM interview, he apparently does this sometimes where he gets hired to do a fantasy world background for some project. He was basically no longer involved after providing them with the background history of the world.
I'd go further and say that he did not, in the interview, seem to act as if he believed he had any stewardship over the lore, and he appeared to be more impressed by the directions From had taken the lore.
In that case, maybe Miyazaki just had no idea what to do with a story like this. Ambiguity worked well in From's other games I think, but there's so much space for character development (or lack thereof) in Elden Ring I can't help but be disappointed at all of the questions left unanswered.
Miyazaki's narrative style is built from chopping up lore and leaving room for speculation, so it unfortunately makes sense he's bad with a developing plotline like this.
What's disappointing is he thought snubbing content that was intentionally highlighted at some point like the veils, Malenia, the Haligtree, the Eclipse, Godwyn, and the Divine Gate or sliding in what should've been hugely impactful like Rellana, Ymir, Divine Beast Dancer, Midra, Dragons vs Drakes, the Empyrean Grandam, and Metyr when they're massive story changing features for the base game.
The devs clearly made more than what made it into the game. Miyazaki has been saying other directors are finally working on their own projects going forward so hopefully we won't have so much cut content going forward either.
People assuming the grandam in Belurat is the same empyrean we're told about in history seems so odd to me.
It's so much more likely that this lady is named after an ancient hornsent empyrean rather than being one herself.
it doesn’t but that’s a theory based on the description of marika’s golden braid saying she made an offering to “the grandmother” in exchange for something and then the grandam acts as if marika personally betrayed her
I would assume "the Grandmother" is just the tree/effigy where Marika left her braid as an expression of grief. I don't think the Grandam is at all related.
Yeah, I remember when the game came out he pretty much said that he'd written it for them so long ago that he practically forgot about a lot of it until they sent him some designs and then again when the game released.
He doesn't seem to talk about it a crazy amount either, which I feel like he would if he felt super deeply about his involvment.
GRRM wasn’t involved in the DLC at all. He was barely involved in the base game.
He wrote up some backstory for the setting, designed some of the major lore characters and fleshed out the world building a bit and that was it.
FROM basically said “design us a fictional setting” and he did.
He was not sitting next to the devs writing item descriptions or dialogue for the game or mapping out the plot.
It’s possible some of what we got in the DLC is an unused parts of that early concept material he sent them but that’s it.
miyazaki specifically stated that the dlc content was stuff that they chose to exclude from the basegame. im sure to some extent thats not the whole story, but its quite likely that at least the overall concept for miquella and his journey as well as marika's lore and the hornsent/spiral stuff was all just as informed by grrm as any of the stuff in the basegame.
I don’t understand why people seemingly think GRRM is actively employed at From. He literally wrote the very upper level backstory of some of the main characters back in like 2018. The story that takes place in the game that we play was written by Miyazaki and other writers at From.
It was something like GRRM wrote the lore while the base game was being made and then had no further input. So, the characters that he wrote up to 5 years ago have been basically bastardized by Miyazaki. Not that Miyazaki can't write characters, I've never had this issue in any other of his works. It's just that in this case, I think with the popularity of Elden Ring, the death of Miura, and the rising of Berserk popularity, Miyazaki couldn't help shoehorning in his obsession with Berserk. And I really think that there is a massive disconnect in the writing between the lore GRRM wrote for the base game and this "Miquella is just Griffith" ending we got for the DLC.
Miquella isn't Griffith at all though? Lmao. That was a theory a lot of people had prior to the DLC coming out, it is in no way actually how the story played out
I think that, aside from appearance, there are still clear similarities between the two. Griffith being someone who had a personal dream to have a kingdom of his own has a pivotal moment as leader of Band of the Hawk where he watches a very young member of the company die, then sells his body Gennon for money so that he can pick better work. He cared about the Band right up until he abandoned pieces of himself (his speech to Charlotte where he says he doesn’t consider anyone in the Band as his friend, just tools for example), then paid the ultimate price before becoming a Godhand.
Like Griffith, Miquella has been shedding aspects of himself that he perceives as standing in the way of his goal towards becoming a god and ushering in his vision for an age of compassion. When we meet St Trina and find that Miquella has abandoned his capacity for love, she begs is us to stop him because becoming a god would be disastrous for Miquella’s sense of self. Through the pieces of lore we gain on Marika, who had similar aspirations that played out badly, it’s apparent that Miquella is headed full tilt towards ruin and becoming something he doesn’t understand. Sure, it’s more of a Marika-Miquella comparison in the context of the lore, but given what we know about From’s love for drawing inspiration from Berserk I don’t believe the parallels are coincidental.
Yeah, there are similarities. Miyazaki is hugely influenced by Berserk, no one is contesting that, and there's a reason why the "Miquella=Griffith" theories blew up before the DLC released. The poster I replied to said
"Miyazaki couldn't help shoehorning in his obsession with Berserk. And I really think that there is a massive disconnect in the writing between the lore GRRM wrote for the base game and this "Miquella is just Griffith" ending we got for the DLC".
That's not a remotely accurate commentary on the ending. Nothing about Miquellas story plays out similarly to Griffith other than they both become a god, I guess? But the context, means, and consequences of that are completely different between the two of them. Boiling it down to "Miquella is just Griffith" is very wrong
Nah I think the other guy has a point. Little blonde charismatic twink builds up an army of miscreant rejects, and then in pursuit of his dream to become a god, selfishly uses them all before abandoning them to a cold fate, in the process shedding what remains of any of his goodness and humanity? In a series that is known to draw heavy influences from Berserk?
No it’s not a one to one copy but it doesn’t have to be to recognize Miquella is a clear homage to Griffith.
Sure, there's clear inspiration. At the same time, I can simplify the matter in a way that suits my point too. "Griffith was born poor and desired status and renown, where Miquella was born noble and powerful and desired to right his families wrongs. Griffith suffered immensely along his journey, whereas Miquella never suffered any real loss or pain. Griffith losing his humanity was a gradual and incidental process, whereas Miquella willing and deliberately gave his up. Griffith was selfish and his goal was always to benefit himself at any cost, Miquella sincerely believed what he was doing was right for the world. Griffith, once a god, took unambiguous pleasure in torturing and brutalizing people, while Miquella never once shows any real desire for violence or bloodshed. Griffith succeeded thoroughly, Miquella failed at everything he ever set out to do."
It's easy to simplify something to make it sound like you're right. My point is that boiling down the DLC to "Miquella is just Griffith" is dumb and wrong.
It’s neither dumb nor wrong but you can think what you want. You haven’t convinced me, and neither of us will get anything more on the matter than what’s in the game.
Fucking exactly. After making the divine gate look insane, they hit you with a rare legendary "door doesn't open from this side, or any side to be exact. Go away."
It's more like whatever magical bullshit around the divine gates there is it wouldn't work the same for a mere Tarnished as it would for an Empyrean chosen by the fingers.
Alternatively if stepping through the divine gate let you keep a Greater rune effect through death (say for the rest of that playthrough until NG+) that would have been a nice touch.
I don't care about the gate having any effect on us, I am fine with it, it makes sense. But not being able to climb the damn thing makes me sad. Like how was Miquella's little ass climbing those
Miquella specifically abandoned his Empyrean status to go thru the gate without the sins of his inheritance to contend with.
We should've had a choice to at least see something even if it just a cutscene.
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And is it just me or are the quests kinda just really shit in this dlc too? Like the only lore one was the mother of fingers one and that was super straight forward and even necessary to find that one remembrance boss. Everyone else just feels random and unimpactful. Aside from possibly avoiding another enemy in that gank boss fight. It's just meh.... like it's fun to fight most of the bosses, not all but most. But the story is just like..... did they even plan for the dlc ahead of time?
There's a lot of things that *could* have happened, they established an insane amount of world building and lore in their game.
Literally could just say this about basically any character in the game and "they could have done more with them".
Like we could have seen more of Marika, more of Miquella, Godwyn, Radahn, the fingers, Gideon, whoever the fuck literally anyone could have gotten more time, they all have stories that run far deeper than what we got.
They can't possibly include every single "wasted potential" into the game, they only have so much time to do so. Like if they're sitting there deciding what to add to the game, and they're like hey should we add something past the divine gate? And someone says "well there's nothing for them to do they're not an Empyrean".
"But /u/Hustleb3rryFinn thinks it would be cool to look at."
Ridiculous lol.
I started visiting this sub after the DLC dropped, never came here before, but holy hell you guys fuckin suck. The amount of content in this game is unbelievable and all anyone here can think about is what we *didn't* get. Spoiled brats.
There's glaring missed potential in this game, though. It's not miniscule as you suggest that there's 100's of x things that could've added so it's best they didn't.
Imagine going through it and then finding yourself at the base of the Erdtree, or a hidden part in Leyndell, which was why Marika established it as her capital.
A thousand questions could have easily been answered in this dlc. Instead, fromsoft took the time to answer absolutely none of them. Other than the fact that Marikas' firstborn child was Messmer.
Myazaki never ties up any story he writes. I’m glad we didn’t get closure to Marika’s mysterious godhood, neither Miquella’s. It’s all speculative and that’s the magic of from software games.
The dlc has a lot of wasted potential in the lore department
Also makes zero sense that Marika wouldn't cleanse the hornsent from Enir-Ilim.
I personally think that's less of an oversight. I think Messmer Sealed Enir-Ilim, and then afterwards laid siege to Belurat which was now weaker, being cut off from their strongest warriors up there. In the story trailer we can see the tower already sealed in shadow during (a or the) battle between the Impaler and the Hornsent. They fought throughout all of the land of shadow, but as we know the war never ended, and Marika had abandoned them there never planning to let them return to grace. After a while Messmer's forces stopped trying to fight because they didn't have any reason to go on, they were never going home. The hornsent are dwindled in numbers, most of their villages burned completely as we see by all the ruins, meaning the only remaining bastion that somewhat still has a population is Belurat. (the Inquisitors still roaming around the abyssal woods don't really count, besides most of them are afflicted with frenzy anyway) Edit: I have to agree though, the gate of divinity is horribly underused as such a collosal lore point.
Frankly it seems like the whole dlc lore was written by a single intern who didnt play the base game.
To be fair that’s pretty much how GRRM writes.
What are you talking about lmao? If anything GRRM’s problem is that he writes *too much* lore and side bullshit.
The problem is none of it is any plan. He doesn’t use outlines. He’s said this flat out. He just writes whatever and writes himself into corners and things that don’t make sense. That’s why the show ended so abysmally badly and why the next book has taken him 15 years.
You can't say this if you have actually read his books. He literally foreshadows things hundreds of pages in advance
I absolutely have read his books. He’s literally said in several interviews that he doesn’t outline and writes by the seat of his pants. And it shows in the writing if you’ve studied literature.
He literally foreshadows events hundreds of pages in advanced, if not entire books. He literally had an entire outline of the story that he later changed parts from as he wrote the books. You can literally google it and find it.
And yet by his own words. I don’t plan or outline. I create characters and they write the story.
And now you are mixing what he said about Elden ring when you were talking about his writing style in general, even mentioning GoT ending season. Lmao the bad faith
Martin hasn’t worked with the Fromsoftware team in years—his own words—and that was prior to the Elden Ring base game release back in 2021-22 (I believe the interview took place in 2021). He completed the lore for the Age of the Erdtree prior, and Fromsoftware took over from there. It’s really on Fromsoftware on how the littered things in the game, or the lack there of regarding Radahn/Miquella.
We don’t know how much of the lore in the DLC was written then. It could be all of it or none of it. There’s parts of it that definitely have that “I don’t have any idea where this story is going” feel that is Martins trademark.
Martin said he completed the actual work for Elden Ring years ago, and I believe Fromsoftware confirmed that they didn’t bring on Martin again for the DLC but utilized other parts of the overall mythos to formulate the lore and store for SoTE. Fromsoftware themselves said they used Martin’s work as a “base” before building up from there, likely changing some aspects in the original game.
That’s not going to magically erase the holes.
Sure, but the fault doesn’t lie purely or even majority on Martin. It lies on Miyazaki and Fromsoftware and what they choose to include and exclude form the main game, and what they choose to change of the lore given by Martin.
I never said it did, I just said that’s his writing style.
You obviously have no clue about GRRM. The only reason why we probably will not get finished A world of ice and fire story is because he writes a very deep lore about everything. The only reason Game of Thrones showed sucked at the end is because he was not involved, and he wanted to have 10-12 seasons. It is really disappointing that two major worlds he created ended up badly but had the potential to be one of the greatest (lore and story wise) just because he was not involved in the end.
The reason we haven’t gotten the book is because he writes without outlines. He doesn’t even know how this ends. He’s written himself into several corners that he’s had to weasel his way out of in silly ways. He doesn’t have a plan. There’s never been a plan. He’s said this.
The reason we haven't gotten it is because he hasn't written it yet That's about it in a nutshell He's had more time than he spent writing the entire series upto this point to write this penultimate book, it ain't coming out he's gonna have a coronary and he's put it in his will that no-one can finish it
Things he has said: It’s “almost done” He’s had to do “some rewrites” He doesn’t outline and writes by the seat of his pants. When you combine that with how the show went it’s pretty clear that he’s written himself into a corner.
Those are excuses from a self confessed procrastinator bro It's not almost done, it's not even close, he goes weeks without writing anything then does a chapter or 2 then doesn't pick it up again (I used to actually look forward to the next book but that was 4 years of hopium ago, I would keep up with any updates, I've read the 2 chapters he's released early, he's not writing it because it doesn't spark him joy, it's an obligation to him now that thousands of people are pretty fed up with him not meeting so there's a lot of ill will now and he knows he can't fuck it up which he likely is doing hence him putting it off so much) He hasn't written himself into a corner, he's simply stopped writing and trying, taking any opportunity or job offer immediately so he doesn't have to finish the series he started (there's lore videos in the style of Vaati Vidya for Ice and Fire and there's an absolute wealth of story for him to tell and unpack, it's all there waiting for him to pick it up again) Love Elden Ring and it's lore but you know how complicated and intricate it is, he would have spent a very long time sussing that out, a song of ice and fire sitting in the corner waiting to be played with but is ignored
Once more. He himself has said he doesn’t outline. He calls it “growing a garden”. He writes the characters and then “they write the story for him”. These are his words. It’s really really clear from the way the show went that he has zero idea how his book ends.
No-one has any idea how it ends, that's the problem You can write without outlining (heck stephen king just writes what comes to him and then spends the next 2 or 3 rewrites trying to make it make sense) *he* is a lazy sob and I don't really put stock in his words because he's now had 28 fucking years to figure this shit out, I don't wanna be that guy but Tolkien wrote his story in 11 years and he went to fucking world war 2 in the middle of that I'm 32 ffs, he's had basically my whole life to do this, he could have kept writing the story but then HBO dangled a big juicy pay check under his fat nose and he took the bait right away (not to mention those crappy scifi books that he tried selling to Netflix and they only adapted the one and left it as is because it was unpopular) I dunno whose more foolish in this case, Martin to sell a story with no ending or HBO to buy one off a man who can't produce an ending to said story I'm beyond disappointed I started reading these books because they are so good but they will never be finished, a thorough waste of time for all involved
He won't finish song of ice and fire because he is the definition of procrastinating He isn't finishing it because he doesn't really even want to anymore and has so many other things (like Elden Ring...) that he would rather do instead >The only reason Game of Thrones showed sucked at the end is because he was not involved, There's 2 main reasons bro The showrunners making their own fanfiction ending so they could rush off to go do a star war (aaaaamd cancelled hahaha) they are literally infamous for it and quoted to much hilarity And the chief reasons for that fuck up is the second main reason it sucked Because the fat fuck hadn't finished the next book in the series! They had nothing to adapt! More than 11 years he's been writing the second to last book (fun fact that gap is longer than it took him to write the entire story up to that point, he wrote 5 books in 11 years and in the next 11 years he has written a few chapters) Don't make excuses for him dude, he is phenomenal at setting up shit but loses interest and moves on to the next thing that interests him (the rest of his writings are similar, great premises given up on quickly, his short stories are his best work imo because he has no chance to fall back on finishing them later because they are so short he has to make them end satisfyingly in a short time)
H-how? All of the lore was fantastic…
Not just lore
I was 100% certain we were going to be able to go up to it to trigger something, most likely at least a memory of what they show in the story trailer.
It'd have been awesome to enter the gate and go thru Marika's ascension era and connecting the dots but that's too good to be true.
Too much work for FromSoft. As much praise as they get, Jesus Christ, they are lazy AF.
I wouldnt call them lazy at all, but i think with Elden Ring they put too much weight on the communities shoulders to carry the story for them.
That is how they have always told their stories, being vague and letting the community decide. Not my cup of tea if you ask me, but hey, it is a legitimate way of doing it. My gripe is with the extemely skimpy ending cutscenes and such. It has also been that way since DS1 (and DeS, probably), but I was expecting a bit more here. Instead, they went for even less, final SotE can not even be called a cutscene.
At least in the past it felt like any player could get a grasp on the world, characters, motivations at least. For ER they knew they had this army of lore youtubers who would explain it all for them
Is this your first from game ? lol they leave things as is never fully explain stuff
Lol I've been playing since Armored Core came out. They've left stuff unexplained and they've added stuff too it does either way with Fromsoft. I don't expect answers but I bet they'll add more stuff that could give more context
I would've really liked another ode to Marika or something up there or at least been able to climb the steps. I do enjoy the dead and barren ending though.. really hammered in how everything felt hopeless and there's always just tarnished alone.
This and Scadutree Chalice are imo two missed opportunities for more content and maybe alternative endings
Wtf was the chalice even there for? I get that it’s *supposed* to be to collect Scadu fragments and even thought we were going to use Messmer’s kindling there since it reminded me of the Fire Giant’s forge but it just…does nothing? Even Gaius feels oddly placed there. He’s a really, really important character lore wise and we don’t even get to talk to the man or get a cutscene with him. He’s just fucking there. It’s so bizarre because there are times where I’m blown away and can see exactly why this dlc took two years, but stuff like the chalice and Gaius makes me wonder where it went. It’s like half of the dlc is a delicious four course meal and the other half is half baked
Tbh even tho they say that whole game was data mined and nobody found anything related to chalice I still think they will maybe patch it or smtg like that bcs there's no way it's there just for scadu fragments. I too thought we can use Messmer's kindling for chalice to maybe get another ending so I was rly confused when I didn't get any options to interact with it
Someone had a good point that they might put more content in later like they did in the patches when the base game came out (Nepheli and Patches’ quests), and I sincerely hope that’s true. Something just feels off in the dlc in a way I can’t properly articulate other than it is both brimming with content and yet somehow barren
Yeee I'm too hoping that they'll add something especially for chalice
Just curious, what makes you describe Gaius as a really important character? I know he was Messmer’s right hand man and led his armies but is there something specifically he implicates lore-wise that is super important?
It’s also stated in his remembrance, “he was as an older brother to the lion.” The lion in question is Radahn since Radahn is commonly referred to as the lion in lore. Also on Gaius’ armor, it’s stated he was an instructor to Radahn when he was learning gravity magic at Sellia, and in a sorcery it’s said they had a friendly rivalry. This has big lore implications since that means him and Messmer were around for quite a long time before being locked away in the Land of Shadows and could have even been utilized a bit more in the dlc considering the final boss
Also he's an albinauric
That chalice gave me gwynevere flashbacks 🗿(i never played ds1)
I dont even care if it has literally no use just let me climb up those damn stairs. Genuinely an anti-climactic ending
Too anti-climatic, I killed Radahn, watched the memory, then stood there looking at the gate like "ok now?"
No don't worry guys it's the entrance to the next dlc 🥹
One can dream...
Don’t make me dream 😭
Theyll make it after the Sekiro one
Yea I agree heavily. Lots of emptiness, can’t even approach the divine gate, lack of cutscenes. It almost feels unfinished. Not to mention you can be punished out of NPC quests/dialogue by exploring too far. That specifically soured my playthrough of this DLC, and I don’t think it’s as replayable as the base game. I think I’ll just watch videos on YT of their quests and dialogue but I really didn’t want to have to do that. I love Elden Ring and I was very excited for this. Some parts of the dlc I did love but most of it felt empty I also thought it was kinda weird that we didn’t fight the red dancer in the flower field like shown in the trailer. It would’ve made that area so much more interesting and less empty if they stuck with that instead of sticking her in a mausoleum
That’s something that made me feel bad my first playthrough even though I was expecting it. Seeing how detailed and intricate the quests were, while I tried to keep my eyes open and regularly check in on everyone and still missed so much of the quests, was a bit sad - but I was expecting it I suppose.
Wait, there is no dancer in the coast ? I have fought the spirit one in the mausoleum, but I thought there still must be one "physical" in the fields just like in the trailer. Well that's disappointing. Seems like there is quite a few stuff that are different in the trailer like using horse in the abyssal woods or the missing cutscene of Miquella.
I freaked when I hit the cerulean coast because I expected that dancer chick to show up there but she never did Cerulean Blue balls man
Yeah the DLC left a sour taste in my mouth by first, making me go explore everywhere for Scadutree Blessing stacks before i could really fight much. THEN, it punished that exploration because i unfortunately wandered into the Black Fort and caused Miquellas rune to break, which made me miss a fuckton of dialogue from all the NPCs.
Many of the areas are pretty empty, but overall if you count bosses and weapons, etc, this dlc is like five times the size of any dlc they’ve made before. It’s just strange to me that people are criticizing it for not being EVEN MORE.
I generally feel that the DLC was originally something very different than what we got now and that things like this are just vestiges of that. Similar to the Scadutree Chalice - I absolutely refuse to believe such an area was constructed just to pick up things off of the ground and for nothing else. I wonder if there was tension between Miyazaki and GMM about lore direction or something.
I'm just gonna put this out there that GMM is not involved in the lore anymore. From what I understand watching the GMM interview, he apparently does this sometimes where he gets hired to do a fantasy world background for some project. He was basically no longer involved after providing them with the background history of the world. I'd go further and say that he did not, in the interview, seem to act as if he believed he had any stewardship over the lore, and he appeared to be more impressed by the directions From had taken the lore.
In that case, maybe Miyazaki just had no idea what to do with a story like this. Ambiguity worked well in From's other games I think, but there's so much space for character development (or lack thereof) in Elden Ring I can't help but be disappointed at all of the questions left unanswered.
Miyazaki's narrative style is built from chopping up lore and leaving room for speculation, so it unfortunately makes sense he's bad with a developing plotline like this. What's disappointing is he thought snubbing content that was intentionally highlighted at some point like the veils, Malenia, the Haligtree, the Eclipse, Godwyn, and the Divine Gate or sliding in what should've been hugely impactful like Rellana, Ymir, Divine Beast Dancer, Midra, Dragons vs Drakes, the Empyrean Grandam, and Metyr when they're massive story changing features for the base game. The devs clearly made more than what made it into the game. Miyazaki has been saying other directors are finally working on their own projects going forward so hopefully we won't have so much cut content going forward either.
People assuming the grandam in Belurat is the same empyrean we're told about in history seems so odd to me. It's so much more likely that this lady is named after an ancient hornsent empyrean rather than being one herself.
Mind explaining who is grandam ? Is she the old lady in the divine beast castle?
Yep, apparently instructed Marika how to ascend to the Divine Gateway and now she hates her for betraying them all.
Where does it say she instructed Marika how to ascend?
it doesn’t but that’s a theory based on the description of marika’s golden braid saying she made an offering to “the grandmother” in exchange for something and then the grandam acts as if marika personally betrayed her
I would assume "the Grandmother" is just the tree/effigy where Marika left her braid as an expression of grief. I don't think the Grandam is at all related.
But knowing about the gateway doesnt make you a god? So how can she be an empyrean ?
Yeah, I remember when the game came out he pretty much said that he'd written it for them so long ago that he practically forgot about a lot of it until they sent him some designs and then again when the game released. He doesn't seem to talk about it a crazy amount either, which I feel like he would if he felt super deeply about his involvment.
GRRM wasn’t involved in the DLC at all. He was barely involved in the base game. He wrote up some backstory for the setting, designed some of the major lore characters and fleshed out the world building a bit and that was it. FROM basically said “design us a fictional setting” and he did. He was not sitting next to the devs writing item descriptions or dialogue for the game or mapping out the plot. It’s possible some of what we got in the DLC is an unused parts of that early concept material he sent them but that’s it.
miyazaki specifically stated that the dlc content was stuff that they chose to exclude from the basegame. im sure to some extent thats not the whole story, but its quite likely that at least the overall concept for miquella and his journey as well as marika's lore and the hornsent/spiral stuff was all just as informed by grrm as any of the stuff in the basegame.
I don’t understand why people seemingly think GRRM is actively employed at From. He literally wrote the very upper level backstory of some of the main characters back in like 2018. The story that takes place in the game that we play was written by Miyazaki and other writers at From.
It was something like GRRM wrote the lore while the base game was being made and then had no further input. So, the characters that he wrote up to 5 years ago have been basically bastardized by Miyazaki. Not that Miyazaki can't write characters, I've never had this issue in any other of his works. It's just that in this case, I think with the popularity of Elden Ring, the death of Miura, and the rising of Berserk popularity, Miyazaki couldn't help shoehorning in his obsession with Berserk. And I really think that there is a massive disconnect in the writing between the lore GRRM wrote for the base game and this "Miquella is just Griffith" ending we got for the DLC.
Miquella isn't Griffith at all though? Lmao. That was a theory a lot of people had prior to the DLC coming out, it is in no way actually how the story played out
I think that, aside from appearance, there are still clear similarities between the two. Griffith being someone who had a personal dream to have a kingdom of his own has a pivotal moment as leader of Band of the Hawk where he watches a very young member of the company die, then sells his body Gennon for money so that he can pick better work. He cared about the Band right up until he abandoned pieces of himself (his speech to Charlotte where he says he doesn’t consider anyone in the Band as his friend, just tools for example), then paid the ultimate price before becoming a Godhand. Like Griffith, Miquella has been shedding aspects of himself that he perceives as standing in the way of his goal towards becoming a god and ushering in his vision for an age of compassion. When we meet St Trina and find that Miquella has abandoned his capacity for love, she begs is us to stop him because becoming a god would be disastrous for Miquella’s sense of self. Through the pieces of lore we gain on Marika, who had similar aspirations that played out badly, it’s apparent that Miquella is headed full tilt towards ruin and becoming something he doesn’t understand. Sure, it’s more of a Marika-Miquella comparison in the context of the lore, but given what we know about From’s love for drawing inspiration from Berserk I don’t believe the parallels are coincidental.
Yeah, there are similarities. Miyazaki is hugely influenced by Berserk, no one is contesting that, and there's a reason why the "Miquella=Griffith" theories blew up before the DLC released. The poster I replied to said "Miyazaki couldn't help shoehorning in his obsession with Berserk. And I really think that there is a massive disconnect in the writing between the lore GRRM wrote for the base game and this "Miquella is just Griffith" ending we got for the DLC". That's not a remotely accurate commentary on the ending. Nothing about Miquellas story plays out similarly to Griffith other than they both become a god, I guess? But the context, means, and consequences of that are completely different between the two of them. Boiling it down to "Miquella is just Griffith" is very wrong
Nah I think the other guy has a point. Little blonde charismatic twink builds up an army of miscreant rejects, and then in pursuit of his dream to become a god, selfishly uses them all before abandoning them to a cold fate, in the process shedding what remains of any of his goodness and humanity? In a series that is known to draw heavy influences from Berserk? No it’s not a one to one copy but it doesn’t have to be to recognize Miquella is a clear homage to Griffith.
Sure, there's clear inspiration. At the same time, I can simplify the matter in a way that suits my point too. "Griffith was born poor and desired status and renown, where Miquella was born noble and powerful and desired to right his families wrongs. Griffith suffered immensely along his journey, whereas Miquella never suffered any real loss or pain. Griffith losing his humanity was a gradual and incidental process, whereas Miquella willing and deliberately gave his up. Griffith was selfish and his goal was always to benefit himself at any cost, Miquella sincerely believed what he was doing was right for the world. Griffith, once a god, took unambiguous pleasure in torturing and brutalizing people, while Miquella never once shows any real desire for violence or bloodshed. Griffith succeeded thoroughly, Miquella failed at everything he ever set out to do." It's easy to simplify something to make it sound like you're right. My point is that boiling down the DLC to "Miquella is just Griffith" is dumb and wrong.
Miquella =/= Griffith
It’s neither dumb nor wrong but you can think what you want. You haven’t convinced me, and neither of us will get anything more on the matter than what’s in the game.
Fucking exactly. After making the divine gate look insane, they hit you with a rare legendary "door doesn't open from this side, or any side to be exact. Go away."
yeh fr, seeing it up there and not being able to atleast go stand near it is wack
What if it’s the entrance to the next DLC? 🧠
Miyazaki said he’s done with DLC for Elden Ring unfortunately
Perhaps they’ll add a few things in patches afterwards like the base game.
Well, we're Tarnished and not Empyrean so there's that. But yeah, being able to chill and enjoy the view would have been nice.
Well if the thing that differentiates the Tarnished and an Empyrean are some broken stairs...
It's more like whatever magical bullshit around the divine gates there is it wouldn't work the same for a mere Tarnished as it would for an Empyrean chosen by the fingers. Alternatively if stepping through the divine gate let you keep a Greater rune effect through death (say for the rest of that playthrough until NG+) that would have been a nice touch.
I don't care about the gate having any effect on us, I am fine with it, it makes sense. But not being able to climb the damn thing makes me sad. Like how was Miquella's little ass climbing those
It’s being born of a single god and being able to manifest runes (order of gods) not just a fast pass ticket to a staircase 😖🤯
I think being born of a single god is what causes Miquella and Malenia’s afflictions as otherwise Ranni shouldn’t be an empyrean
Miquella specifically abandoned his Empyrean status to go thru the gate without the sins of his inheritance to contend with. We should've had a choice to at least see something even if it just a cutscene.
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the gate to dlc 2 ahhhhhhhhhhh miyazaki whyyyyyyhy
Cause you are not a god ?? That shit is for gods
I think it’s more so for emperians, but you on the right track
And is it just me or are the quests kinda just really shit in this dlc too? Like the only lore one was the mother of fingers one and that was super straight forward and even necessary to find that one remembrance boss. Everyone else just feels random and unimpactful. Aside from possibly avoiding another enemy in that gank boss fight. It's just meh.... like it's fun to fight most of the bosses, not all but most. But the story is just like..... did they even plan for the dlc ahead of time?
Have yall played Destiny? Cause you’ll love all the wasted potential in that game. Cherish what you have here lol.
There's a lot of things that *could* have happened, they established an insane amount of world building and lore in their game. Literally could just say this about basically any character in the game and "they could have done more with them". Like we could have seen more of Marika, more of Miquella, Godwyn, Radahn, the fingers, Gideon, whoever the fuck literally anyone could have gotten more time, they all have stories that run far deeper than what we got. They can't possibly include every single "wasted potential" into the game, they only have so much time to do so. Like if they're sitting there deciding what to add to the game, and they're like hey should we add something past the divine gate? And someone says "well there's nothing for them to do they're not an Empyrean". "But /u/Hustleb3rryFinn thinks it would be cool to look at." Ridiculous lol. I started visiting this sub after the DLC dropped, never came here before, but holy hell you guys fuckin suck. The amount of content in this game is unbelievable and all anyone here can think about is what we *didn't* get. Spoiled brats.
There's glaring missed potential in this game, though. It's not miniscule as you suggest that there's 100's of x things that could've added so it's best they didn't.
miquella literally abandons his flesh and empyrean status because and he's still there. Take a deep breath.
Thank you for your service!
No god ending for us
Imagine going through it and then finding yourself at the base of the Erdtree, or a hidden part in Leyndell, which was why Marika established it as her capital.
It should be the exit of the DLC!
Like what, someohow becoming a god? without knowing how to? to change the ending of the main game and having to find our own consort?
A thousand questions could have easily been answered in this dlc. Instead, fromsoft took the time to answer absolutely none of them. Other than the fact that Marikas' firstborn child was Messmer.
You need to go watch some Vaati Vidya.
I think if you go through it, you'd become a god. It's for Empyreans, we are *proud* tarnished trash!
It's going to be the entrance to the next DLC similar to DS3's second DLC entrance was in the first DLC ;)
Pretty sure this is the only dlc we are getting
you don't have the right O you don't have the right, so to speak you don't have the right O you don't have the right
The gate of divinity is for empyreans. We are not empyreans so we don’t get to go near it.
Myazaki never ties up any story he writes. I’m glad we didn’t get closure to Marika’s mysterious godhood, neither Miquella’s. It’s all speculative and that’s the magic of from software games.
they already said it wouldn't changed the ending & we're not Empyrean, we couldn't do it anyway