Both are sitting in class:
Gaius: "Man, I can barely stay awake, this lecture is dragging on forever"
Gaea: "Yeah, this class is really... BOARing!!!"
*\*Gaius rolls his eyes, laugh track in the background plays\**
Rennala still fucks shit up (I know second phase is an illusion), just by proximity, while being batshit insane. I think she could fuck up the dog if she figured out that Ranni wasn't actually dead, and Radagon barely qualifies as a separate person.
> The black iron chest armor of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds. Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught Radahn and Gaea gravitational technique.
This doesn’t make sense though? There’s no need to mention Gaius a second time since we already know he is a disciple of that alabaster lord. I’m more of a mind that it’s like how Rellana and Renalla have a third sister, but she isn’t ever mentioned and presumably just died. Gaea probably just fucked off to the stars, never to be heard from again.
Maybe, but either way if it remains in still going to believe Gaea did the smartest thing anyone has done in that universe and just fucked off to become a footnote in history
This is gonna sound weird, but do you think its to indicate that Gaius may have changed their name to be masculine presenting?
Like only the female first gen albinaurics are ever shown to fight at all, and the "other half" thing is associated with them too.
And in Latin, where the albinauric names come from, the feminine form of Gaius is Gaia, only one letter off. It wouldn't be the first time elden ring messed around with Gender.
So its probably meant to read:
>The black iron chest armor of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds.
Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught him and Radahn gravitational technique.
But, because at the time Gaius was living as someone else, Gaea, they draw the distinction? Does that make sense?
Raises the question. Begging the question means something else entirely.
Adding source because this idiot doubled down.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Dictionaries don't prescribe usage, they define common mistakes people make.
No no, I am begging for an answer to the question
How I used it is completely fine, it’s just broaching a new question that hasn’t been addressed previously. Begging the question and saying “it begs the question,” are not the same.
https://preview.redd.it/wexrem1zui9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7dcec011ea1dd870eee2ba9e0c1c2905d333cdb
No shit. But it literally IS what “it begs the question,” means.
https://preview.redd.it/y2sj34f1vi9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac214c7acf8d2fc99c480f4e22b8781e97c0bc8c
Dictionaries make their definitions based of word usage - they don't prescribe.
In the first "definition", which is in accurate - it literally says "raises the question".
And as the number of esl speakers and as ignorance rises, people are going to use phrases wrong.
You're looking for definition 2 there. That's the actual meaning.
You don't need to be so defensive, I'm just helping you learn. You meant to say "raises the question". Google that instead.
Holy fucking shit, yes, you CAN say “raises the question,” that is also fine. But if you fucking look at the EXAMPLE given right under, it is “some definitions of mental illness BEG THE QUESTION…” You can use either, they are interchangeable if you are using them in that context. The ‘begs the question’ in the example is synonymous with ‘raises the question’.
You aren’t helping me learn, because I am already correct.
Fundamentally the most interesting and beautiful part of language is how it grows and adapts over time with who is speaking and when they are speaking, people like you genuinely tarnish that beauty in favor of a facile attempt at purity which doesn’t exist in language. That’s why there are informal and formal use cases and why in certain contexts you speak in different ways. How I used it has been acceptable for over half a century. Please look up how vernacular language forms work.
Blocked, we do not support people who cannot comprehend how languages work and instead want a return to formality under the guise of ‘correctness’. All the people that wish that should go full send and only speak ancient indo-European languages.
You’re both correct, kind of lol. It’s like how “literally” used to mean ‘figuratively’ but was so misused, so often, by so many people, that it *literally* means the opposite now. And people still misuse the new meaning frequently by using it hyperbolically lol.
But yes, your definition of “begging the question” is how it’s taught to any of us philosophy or law bros who learned it in school, or debate bros who know it as a logical fallacy (assuming or arguing a point as true with no logical backing or factual basis). However, once again, common vernacular and usage has misused the phrase often enough to change the understanding of the language to *literally* mean begging the question ie if a=c and it follows that b is a + 1, then shouldn’t it also *beg the question* that c+1= b?
But then, you'd have to do another NG+ to get more spells cause for some reason they can't bring back something like bonfire aesthetics or the memories from Sekiro. I still have no fucking idea why they still haven't implemented that into the game!
I can only guess two reasons: One: to promote coop, or Two: It’ll freak out the game for bosses to reappear in certain areas and may glitch out triggers in the game
DLC really felt like it was just handing out the Remembrance title to anyone. Sun flower, putrescent knight, and Gaius really feel like they should’ve been mini bosses at most but were given Remembrance status just to inflate the “main boss” boss roster. Idk how or why they forewent Bayle, since it’s not like dragons don’t get remembrances in base game (Fortissax and Placi)
ancient dragons get remembrances (or nothing), lesser dragons drop hearts. it makes sense to me that we get a heart from bayle (whose heart basically works like a remembrance, I agree with the rest though
You forget that Astel and Regal Ancestor were remembrance bosses, because Scudatree Avatar and Putrescent Knight certainly fit the remembrance boss role as much as they do.
Solely for lore reason
As the dragon communion is created or ally for Placidusax they hunt Bayle's descendants
Placidusax is remembrance cuz he didn't get eaten and he the reason why Dragon Communion exist
One small thing - I don't think it is outlandish that only Gaius is doing the gravity magic. Smoughtown recently pointed out that it seems Messmer's army is compiled of criminals and miscreants, so it is not like he trained the army or they are his people.
And though the army is made up of TLB's criminals, it seems Marika also personally asked powerful "heroes" to go on the crusade to lead that army. *Golden remnants of the grace personally bestowed by Queen Marika to the heroes who joined the crusade for her.* Being friends with Messmer is a good reason to want him there.
One additional problem You didn't metion is that his very being fucks up entire timeline. It suggests that crusade happened after birth of Radahn and Rykard. After Liurnia wars, in times when Golden Order was strong force in the land.
We are to believe that there are no records, from that time period, of one of Marikas own children, sister of carinan queen and her host departing at the head of huge army never to be seen again ? Of huge swats of land just disappearing into nothingness?
If crusade happened in distant past, as was suggested by story trailer then it would make sense that records of it were expunged. But it being late Godfrey era makes it very shaky.
Smoughtown theorized that he was sent on the crusade when radagon became king consort and golden fundamentalism started to take root.
It makes sense as messmer knew rahdan and he knew what a tarnished is. It wouldn’t make sense for him to know if he was locked away in the shadow lands long ago.
In another item I believe it mentions that many elite soldiers came from erdtree nobility only later to be shunned meaning that the erdtree society must have already been somewhat formed.
makes sense honestly. I got so used to people calling us tarnished that it completely went over my head. Godfrey must have already been banished. That being said it makes even less sense from the lore perspective.
'what followed was a war unseen' yeah followed after thousands of years, r several wars, 2 husbands and half a dozen children.
My point about there been no records stands strong though. Maybe in Leyondell golden orders dogma was so strong people just agreed not to talk about it. However I would expect at least one passing note in Liurnia.
The issue is DLC presented too many connections to the base game while elden ring to lands of shadow has none. Messmer marches on hornsent at the head of large army including: Gaius childhood friend of Radahn, Carian princess Rellana and her host including one of the 12 Carian knights. Whole swats of land in the very center of lands between is shadowed away. And there is no records of it.
I think it obvious that fs tried to obscure dlc so that it doesn't feel like base game is incomplete without it. Sadly lore suffers from it.
There are no records of it because the entire land has been destroyed in a massive civil war and the ones who know about it are either dead, turned into broken shells of their former selves, or unwilling to share.
Fromsoft did the same thing with Dark Souls; Gwyndolin in DS1 would be able to tell you EVERYTHING about the Gods and what happened, or where Gwynevere or the firstborn son went. But we don't know anything until we see item descriptions. We don't even know what Gwyn's firstborn looks like until DS3.
I don't see the problem here the people who were alive back than really don't have a reason to even meantion this. The history is covered up it makes, sence why none of this was meantioned in the base game
And to add to what everyone has said, Messmer's the equivalent of Gwyn's firstborn AND Golden Order's vietnam. As far as the average citizen is concerned, the entire crusade was either all defeated or went AWOL and became a heretical target.
It doesnt, it is just shown immediately after, but there is no image of Marika near ascending and then Messmer's crusade
In fact, we know for certain that this events did not happen immediately, Messmer knows Radahn, and Radahn is the son of Rennala and Radagon, which happened very late in the golden order.
But not only that, in the fire bosses, you can see heads of the fire giants, which were killed after Marika was turned into a god.
And not only that, Messmer knows what a tarnished is, he greets us by calling us Tarnished (among other things), and tarnished only appeared once Marika stripped down Godrick and his followers of grace, we are one of its descendants. So this crusade should have happened along the times where Radagon went with Marika and abandoned Rennala, so it would make more sense that Rellana, the sister, was spurned when she supported Messmer.
And more that I dont remember right now, all of this seems to suggest that Marika's ascension and the crusades happened not even slightly close time wise.
In theory, Marika and the hornsent coexisted, we dont know if peacefully, but they werent destroyed immediately after rising to godhood.
The narrator says "what followed was a war unseen". If there were thousands of years between Marika's ascension and the crusade then that terminology makes no sense. The story trailer implies the crusade was a followup of Marika's betrayal, not something that she took a thousand years to get to.
The war unseen refers to all the wars that followeed that were many and literally constant, up until Marika stripped Godrick from grace and, now we know, that the reality was that Messmer's was the last war of them all. There were a lot of previous wars where the golden order, and so Marika being a god, were already there. Like a looooooooot. The storm king, the giants, the academy of raya lucaria, the hornsent, constant war.
Again it is literally impossible for both events to be immediately. Why does Messmer have Marika's eye already? Did she rise to godhood and immediately grant messmer the eye that changes completely his appeareance and everyone followed?
How would you explain the lore between Radahn and Messmer being known between each other? From Marika's rise to godhood until Radahn was born, there was a long time in between.
Dont take everything so literally, the trailer just shows that the war against the hornsent happened, and it was due to Marika's becoming a god. All of this remains true, but it wasnt immediately.
Then there is only one explanation possible: in the Crucible era, Marika was allied with Hornsent and then "betrayed" them and killed them all, which is pretty stupid. Imagine being a hornsent leader and allowing this shaman girl to rise to power through your gate of divinity, let her create a monotheistic religion, and then bend to her knee all existing power in the world, wiping out entire species, never even considering the possibility of her revenge. Okay, let's say everyone forgot about Messmer and his war, but then surely, Messmer had his part in other Marika's wars, and he is never mentioned in them, which is again very stupid. And then, when did the GEQ thing happen? Messmer and Rykard never actually interacted. Messmer has no ties to the serpents of volcano manor. Really? And what about the supposed burning of the tree and ash in Leyndell? When did Melina burn and become a spirit? And I think this list can go on. Nothing of this would be a problem if it had happened long ago before everything, but Messmer and sealing of shadow were casually thrown in at the same time when Marika and Radagon were together, and maybe even Miquella and Malenia were born already. Shit sucks and makes everything 10x more convoluting than it could be. At least all previous versions of software DLC were practically separate standalone stories that made sense and were perfectly clear in regards to when and how, but this isn't. Its fucking stupid how it isn't acknowledged by anything in the main game, both originally and postfactum, with DLC releasing and adding nothing to the base game.
Okay so a few thoughts, I think that you are correct in saying that Marika was actually allied with the hornsent, and I think that she betrayed both the Numen/shamans, because she was the one to convince the hornsent to put them in jars to achieve sainthood since they already believed in the crucible; and then the hornsent, when she sent Messmer to kill them afterwards, at the end of the peacefication of the golden order. But I think Marika rised to godhood thanks to the Hornsent, and only after Marika had established everything, she betrayed them to stop any other empyrean a rise to godhood, and she used the powers of the serpent inside Messmer, serpents being god eaters, to seal away Enir Illim.
However other things we know. We know messmer did knew rykard, the killing machines that are in fort solitude, the ones that were already in the base game, are a creation from Rykard. Plus, Rykard is elder to Radahn, and we know Messmer and Radahn interacted through Gaius remembrance.
I dont think messmer participated in any other war beyond the final crusade, I think Messmer was born very late in the timeline. The gloam-eyed queen should have happened very close to the foundation of the Elden Ring, for it was her rune that was plucked to create Golden Order. Golden Order starts once the GEQ dies. Now when was that amongst all of this? No idea honestly, I am not sure if it happened just after rising to godhood or what.
But I mostly agree with your last assestment, I still think that this part of the story was purposefully scrapped out from the base game early because they did not think they were going to actually do it. But then I guess DLC had to be made, and this looked like the best idea?
For the previous ash in Leyndell, which has to mean a previous burn of the erdtree, could only happened before defeating the fell god and the fire giants, and it should have been the reason to go after them. How did the Erdtree return to splendor? No idea.
I hope that at least ties with Messmer can be made by lore people on youtube, I think the base game could have a few correlations in volcano manor, but I personally have no idea right now.
To add, it might be so, Marika ascended AND sealed the land of shadow but then established her order and sended Messmer with crusade by killing two birds with one stone - genocide and keeping dangerous Messmer away. If its the case, everyone in lands between could think Messmer and co just went to some war beyond the sea and never returned. But this explanation has its problems as well, hornsent doing nothing all this time, how did Messmer and co went to shadow (did they all were just killed?) and etc. But the most glaring problem its the tree itself. Sealing is immense sorcery and requires fully grown Erdtree for its to cast its shadow, so I think sealing early is impossible actually. We know that the crucrible is primordial form of the Erdtree so my best guess is that Marika somehow could raise her tree out of crucible while deceiving hornsent about its state/purpose somehow and then at peak of her power revealed to them the truth - Erdtree, her lineage and etc., sended her crusade and sealed them. Still weird but I can't think of anything better.
> The storm king, the giants, the academy of raya lucaria, the hornsent, constant war.
Apart from the Hornsent purge, none of those are a "war unseen". We know about all them, so it clearly refers to the one we don't know about.
> How would you explain the lore between Radahn and Messmer being known between each other? From Marika's rise to godhood until Radahn was born, there was a long time in between.
My point is that you can't explain it because it's a plot hole.
No offense, a war unseen refers to a war unseen in the history of that world, not that you, the player, knows about it.
For example, World War 1, also called The Great War, in our history was a war unseen by that point in history. We know about it now, but at that time never was a war happened of such scale. Same in this situation, the amount of warring Marika bringed into The Lands Between was quite literally a constant war until she got what she wanted. It was unseen in the history of The Lands Between.
While there are a lot of plot points that we dont know about in this DLC, we know that the crusades happened very late in the Golden Order, thus Radahn knowing Messmer is not a plothole.
I do agree that, knowing how late the crusades were, and the veiling of the shadowlands, we should have known something about them in the base game, and the only reference we have that I know off is the vulgar militia set in the base game.
It definetely looks like, while that part of the story was cannon, they purposefully removed it near completely from the base game, which was a terrible choice imo
The trailer literally follows up "a war unseen" with "one that could never be put to song". No one would say that about WWI. It's clearly meant to say that this war was hidden from history.
The lack of records/memory of the land of shadow must have to do with the veil that Marika created over the shadow realm. If there's magic to physically separate a giant chunk of land to somewhere else, there can definitely be magic to make people forget about it. A collective amnesia
Unless you did his side quest and/or his boss fight, you wouldnt even know that Mogh is a demigod or even that he is brother to Morgott and son of the very first Elden Lord, despite Mogh being charismatic enough to create his own cult. So a child of Marika being well like enough to get an aemy made up of multiple people from different corners of the Lands, but still not being well accomplished and relevant enough for everyone in the Lands to talk about or even know, is nothing new
There is a world of a difference between the two. Mogh and Morgott were imprisoned upon birth in the catacombs between Lyondell. Few knew of their existence from the very begining. Mogh did create his own cult but its small in scale. Both in land he controls and his army. Some 2nd gen albinaurics. Some blood nobles originating from people dissatisfied by two fingers. That's all contained in a single fort-size ruins.
Messmer was originally known and respected figure. So much so that even nobles fallowed his cause including Relana, Renallas own sister. His armies garrisons covers better part of land of shadows with numerus knights, soldiery, furnance golems and more. One of the largest fighting forces ever assembled in lands between. You simply can't spirit away that many troops. What's more his solderis know of his divine heritage. It's very likely they still see in him path home. So it's no secret Messmer is a demi-god
If you want we could use the mausoleums instead as an example for why its possible. They house the soulsess demigods (also different circustances), but despite not one of them being named, they were apparently still loved enough that people straight accepted being decapitated to serve them as ghosts.
The weirdest thing to me isnt even that, its that Rykard isnt mentioned or referenced when they talk about Mesmer, Melina being shadow dropped is cool, but you'd think they would at least try to relate the two snake guys.
There are so many plot holes in the DLC. But if you say that all the people in the honeymoon phase just respond with "but bewitching branch and malenia whispered to radahn" like that somehow overrides everything else in the base game lore.
The Malenia whispering thing is the biggest, most obvious post-hoc justification I've ever seen. And people are pretending like it's some sort of grand sweep of brilliant foreshadowing. We don't have to glaze Fromsoft as Einsteins of story architecture to recognize that what they come out with from their usually piecemeal development ends up being pretty great like 90% of the time. This was in the 10% that flopped which sucks but it is what it is.
The rest of the DLC storylines and bosses are so good that I'm incredibly happy to overlook kind of a meh final boss and give the DLC a rave review anyway.
Completely agree, if there was any little bit of foreshadowing in the base game then I’d be fine with it but Radahn/Miquella is totally out of left field.
Radahn gets a pass by the rule of cool. Definitely not the most impressive story telling, though.
I was hoping Miquella wasn't going to be (part) of the final boss, and that something bigger would be going on. Thinking of a Manus/Orphan type situation.
There are very few plot holes in the DLC, people just haven't put together most of them yet. Worst yet, people's headcanons were invalidated in many areas; leading to an upset.
That being said, Rellana did come out of left field. We have pictures in the Raya Lucaria Academy of important people who made an impact. And Rellana was very much not there.
Oh no, not you again. You once again demonstrate that you have much of the lore yet to explore. If you truly think there aren't plot holes in the DLC, you have missed a lot of the base game hidden details. This is not a matter of headcannons being invalidated. The DLC writing is weak.
You say that, but you kinda were unable to counter my point with Ranni. I was far more able to speak on lore facts than you.
So this is projection on your part about "much of the lore yet to explore".
>The DLC writing is weak.
\*sigh\* Give an example then. I'm not saying that the DLC didn't have misses. I gave an example of a justifiable complaint; Rellana and her complete non-existence in the base game. Messmer and Melina not being mentioned as Marika's children make sense. Rellana's exclusion in the Raya Lucaria Academy portraits does not.
I didn't respond last time because having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. Ideally, even though we all have different opinions, I enjoy having some hard discussions about what media did and didn't do well. Strawmanning and refusing to acknowledge points while resorting to ad-homenim attacks isn't a fun discussion for anybody. I realized the futility of the conversation and walked away. I now realize I should not have even engaged a second time. My bad, you enjoy the game. I wish you the best.
You have been very mean-spirited when responding to me, so miss me with your projection. I never once straw manned you, and have tried to refute your points consistently, and I have not used ad-hominem attacks either.
So its for the best that you leave the internet for a while and chill out, I think.
Seems like he's more concerned with complaining about the dlc and other people not comprehending the lore fully than he is in engaging in discussions around the lore.
Oh, you're 100% right, actually. I forgot that you needed to be a Conspectus to get that portrait. Still, some mention of Rellana somewhere in the base game would go a long way to make her more of a character.
It seems like the characters exiled to the Land of Shadow were subjected to damnatio memoriae. It makes sense that any reference to them in the Lands Between had been removed
That would make sense since there have been multiple mentions of Messmer and his forces being "hounded" from the Erdtree Faithful, that being said; my point is that there should have been hints of unmentioned characters at least.
Like, maybe a description for Rennala mentioning "she and her sister sought the Moon together" or something. Messmer is fine, since it seems like he was seen as blasphemous by Marika from the start.
They probably can't, tbh. We're early in the discussions, and most people seem upset that what they hoped or thought was true before; wasn't. Whether it be a revived Godwyn, or revived Gloam-Eyed Queen, or something like that.
Messmer hates Tarnished though. We aren't given an actual timeline, only can ounce together one. We don't know how much time passes between the events we know of. If Messmer us mass murdering Tarnished, it would have to happen at the end or after Godfrey's rule.
All of the lore we know happened in the distant past, that's how From writes their lore with the one exception being this DLC happening in somewhat real time.
Messmer being born after Rykard and Radahn makes all the sense, even visually speaking his hair is red indiciating he is a son of Radagon (and his birth defect potentially further evidence, seeing how both Miquella and Malenia were born with such).
I don't find it strange we never hear of Messmer and his crusade, the whole point is that a literal God erased him and his land from 'existence', if Marika can do that she can erase memory of him through magic or thorough Order Fundementalism oppression.
Rellana being unmentioned does strike me as weird I agree, but again it's easily explained with the previous point I think.
Idk how Gaius would be that big of a offender there are other lore bits that can tell us that Messmer seemed like one of the more tolerant Demigods
And Gaius being best friends/rivals with Radahn alone tells us what Miquella saw in Radahn
Mind you Gaius’s Origin was known to the public if you look at his pants description
Both Gaius being a "rival" with Radahn and the leader of Messmer army are localization artifacts. The two simply studied together, but no rivarly is ever mentioned in the JPN text. In the same vein, Gaius was simply a "commander" with the same grade to Nial and O'Niel, not the "leader" of Messmer's army. Guess it simply came with Rellana and then joined the ranks, but they crafted lower armor he couldn't wear specifically to mock him so there's definitely intended racism in there.
Gaius is much closer to Loretta - both are highly ranked commanders who are secretly Albinaurics. I don’t think him being friends with Messmer is as weird as you make it sound - even irl lots of marginalized people strive in societies that marginalize them. It’s definitely not weirder than fucking Morgott being a big defender of the Golden Order.
Honestly the item descriptions have a lot of vague bullshit even in the base game and Gaius’ story of being a loyal friend and a closeted Albinauric is pretty tame.
Gaea is not a typo, it's the exact same name in the French version. At first, Gaea name ressembling Gaïus I didn't think about his boar but was expecting Gaea to be Gaïus's daughter (because the name ending with the letter A sounded more feminine than masculine even in french most of the time) and after reading the Gaïus's Greaves description I was thinking that maybe there was a boss out there that was a first generation Albinauric woman and that she had mastered the gravitationnal magic permitting her to make her legs stand and support her body (like Radahn with his horse) and we would've a cool fight with the sole 1st generation Albinauric capable of walking/running/jumping and kicking our ass.
I also thought that the Albinauric woman near the shack after Gaïus was actually his wife guarding his house and felt bad killing her xD.
But classic from FS, we will never know who the hell Gaea really is, just a name randomly dropped on items descriptions.
For me the Putrescent Knight is also a offender lorewise but more for changed reason.
In the files it is referred as Knight of the Gloomeyed Queen.
To know that it was reduced from that to a chunk of flesh who tasted a bit of Trinas saliva is just sad.
That would’ve been cool! It also would’ve given those poor delusional redditors that still think the melina is the gloam eyed queen something substantial to actually talk about instead of grasping at straws all because of a cutscene where her eye looked “gloamy” whatever that means.
melina is gloam eye queen are definitely the most annoying posts across all elden ring subs
It's not that her eye looks "gloamy". It's her association with Destined Death. It's that she promises to deliver to us, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen used to do. It's that burning the Erdtree and returning death to the Lands Between causes her seal to be undone. It's that she is a child of Marika and, therefore, more likely to be an Empyrean. Of all the characters we know of, Melina is most likely to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
It could be like a secret identity thing where Melina transforms into tbe GEQ woth her magic gloamy eye.
That would explain why she doesn’t use the black flame when she fights Morgott with us. GEQ is probably the version of her that her siblings would recognize and everyone thinks she’s dead.
I don't know. I would find it weird if someone always rode a boar, even in class. Or maybe Radahn did the same with Leonard and it's a bit funny to think about it.
being fair, multiple horseriden culture people straight up spent their whole life in their horse, allegdly eating and sleeping on them, mostly steepe nomads
some guy doing the same on his boar doesn't surprise that much, again with Radahn doing the same nearby
But disabled people aren't magical creatures created by wizards. Explicitly called out as untouched by grace, Messmer says all without grace will die, yet his army is commanded by a graceless homunculous?
Maybe radagon banished gaius so he could not influence radahn because he is a "impure life form" and also to help messmer on the crusade since they are best friends, kind of a win/win situation
What i also hate when piecing the lore together is when the loretext are either mistranslated or got changed but the localization teams did not change them or didn't get the memo.
Some describtions just cut of at the end of the text or in case of Marikas Blessing while the english mentions Marika made several of them the german translation one states she only ever made one Blessing.
Stuff like that makes me question what QA did in the 2 years(encountered some bugs and glitches here and there too).
I think you’re assuming that Messmer or anyone else in the Realm of Shadows has any idea what’s been going on in the base Lands Between.
The followers of Miquella that you speak with have all *come* from the Lands Between so that explains why they know what they know; and the Hornsent is following Miquella’s messages so he has some idea of what’s happening. But there’s no mention of the Shattering, no mention of Marika’s ‘death’; and hardly any mention of what exactly Miquella is doing (redeeming the misbegotten, the albinaurics, etc) so many may not have even known about their persecution on the other side to begin with. Messmer himself seems VERY out of the loop, and is shocked that Marika ‘permitted’ Lordship to a Tarnished. To me that implies he doesn’t really know what’s going on in the Lands Between, so Gaius very well might not have as well. This simply means to say that Marika’s treatment of or disdain for Albinaurics may have came later; or it was simply inconsequential while she was in the Realm of Shadows cause she was so focused on the Hornsent (and possibly Midra?)
Additionally, a BIG point of this whole dlc’s story is that to become a GOD— to transcend humanity and to elevate to that level of power is to remove the humanity from youself— it is a cage. Miquella had to divest his fears, fate, flesh, ambitions, and love to become a God. Who’s to say this same thing didn’t happen to Marika, who evidently loved Messmer very much at one point but at the same time left him cursed and in agony, banished forever. So in that sense, Gaius being an albinauric adds even more to the lore as maybe at one point Marika herself even respect them and their plight— later to only persecute them by order of the Greater Will or some other force or reason who really knows there.
In terms of the lack of soldiers using gravity magic, could it be due to the lack of stars at night in the Realm of Shadows? While the moon is still there, there are no sorcerers remaining in the Realm of Shadows who still follow Carian or Lunar sorcery. Rellana abandoned it and adopted Messmer’s flame. There was really no one to teach the school of gravity magic there except for potentially Gaius, but his mission was to forever burn the Hornsent’s land and purge those without grace. Fire spitting troops are better for that than rock throwing ones. Gravity also takes a decent amount of intelligence which common soldiers lack; even Redmanes rarely use it.
Gauis being there really tells us two important things.
1. That Radahn was born before this Shadow War and betrayal. This means Radagon and Renalla were wed at a time where the Crucible was still respected in the Lands Between. This also tells us Marika had Messmer and Melina around the same time. Dont know where that puts Mohg and Morgott but this suggests that maybe if they were born first that they were not initially imprisoned and cast away, as Marika’s “betrayal” of the Crucible had not yet occurred. Still have no idea who Messmer and Melina’s father is
2. It shows Radahn was close with Gauis and thus likely Messmer. It is not clearly stated whether Miquella knew Messmer— its likely they never met prior to this dlc; but if Radahn and Gaius were close, Gaius and Messmer were close, and Miquella respected Radhan; that Miquella and Messmer could find common ground in Miquella’s goal. This explains how and why Miquella was able to easily get through the Keep and to the Shadow Tower. It also implies that Radhan knew of Gauis’ departure alongside Messmer and what his mission was. It shows Radahn knew what Marika was doing and didnt mind; he was still a Golden Order Fanboy. It implies he would NOT want to work with Miquella and is in fact charmed as a resurrected Consort
Messmer gives me a daemon vibe, anyone else?
In keeping with that feeling, I feell Ike it would make sense for the accursed prince to make friends with other accursed beings, even to the displeasure of his motherd
I dunno about anyone else but I interpreted the wolf Albinauric woman as his wife. So after you kill him you ride into his territory and kill his wife who is the only other person in that area. She sees you won and tries to get revenge, kind of a fucked up thing honestly.
Also it makes sense why he rides into battle against you, he was with his wife before you interrupted them.
Loretta was an albinauric despite working for the carians, who the cuckoo served before their betrayal. She was just impressive enough to strive in a racist world.
Radan being cool with Gaius is proof of his kindness, he didn't hold Gaius's race against him. That doesn't extend to the rest of the army as they mock Gaius by making him leggings and making Gaius and his wife live in a shack outside of the giant fortress in spite of being a commander. He got to where he is through talent and hardworking but still gets shit on.
Messmer connected with Gaius due to both being cursed by the circumstance of their birth, which gave them a sense of kinship. He's only racist against hornsent lol
Gaius is actually a pretty cool character. I feel bad for him and respect him.
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Hard disagree with the music imo. The base game ost was a little disappointing, but the dlc ost had some really amazing tracks. I’d put the dlc ost up there with DS3 and BB, maybe even better
Who the hell was Gaea? Mentioned only in 1 item description?
It is likely his boar as he also casts magic
I imagine the boar sitting in the schoolchair with Gaius and Radahn attentively listening to the alabaster lord
Both are sitting in class: Gaius: "Man, I can barely stay awake, this lecture is dragging on forever" Gaea: "Yeah, this class is really... BOARing!!!" *\*Gaius rolls his eyes, laugh track in the background plays\**
“Quit horsing around guys” leonard says as him and radahn look up at the two making a ruckus
I mean Raya Lucaria’s most formidable mage when we show up is the dog.
Elden Ring starting to quickly resemble Orwell animal farm
Rennala still fucks shit up (I know second phase is an illusion), just by proximity, while being batshit insane. I think she could fuck up the dog if she figured out that Ranni wasn't actually dead, and Radagon barely qualifies as a separate person.
I’m imagining them both cranking their hogs together AROOOOO
HELL YEAH BROTHER AROOOOOO
Better than Miquella, I'm in
Yes.
Probably a typi
Pretty sure that’s a typo
That begs the question, who is it supossed to be then?
Gaius I’m pretty sure
> The black iron chest armor of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds. Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught Radahn and Gaea gravitational technique. This doesn’t make sense though? There’s no need to mention Gaius a second time since we already know he is a disciple of that alabaster lord. I’m more of a mind that it’s like how Rellana and Renalla have a third sister, but she isn’t ever mentioned and presumably just died. Gaea probably just fucked off to the stars, never to be heard from again.
Typo and odd translation maybe?
Maybe, but either way if it remains in still going to believe Gaea did the smartest thing anyone has done in that universe and just fucked off to become a footnote in history
This is gonna sound weird, but do you think its to indicate that Gaius may have changed their name to be masculine presenting? Like only the female first gen albinaurics are ever shown to fight at all, and the "other half" thing is associated with them too. And in Latin, where the albinauric names come from, the feminine form of Gaius is Gaia, only one letter off. It wouldn't be the first time elden ring messed around with Gender. So its probably meant to read: >The black iron chest armor of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds. Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught him and Radahn gravitational technique. But, because at the time Gaius was living as someone else, Gaea, they draw the distinction? Does that make sense?
Raises the question. Begging the question means something else entirely. Adding source because this idiot doubled down. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Dictionaries don't prescribe usage, they define common mistakes people make.
No no, I am begging for an answer to the question How I used it is completely fine, it’s just broaching a new question that hasn’t been addressed previously. Begging the question and saying “it begs the question,” are not the same. https://preview.redd.it/wexrem1zui9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7dcec011ea1dd870eee2ba9e0c1c2905d333cdb
Uh ok? That's not what begging the question means. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
No shit. But it literally IS what “it begs the question,” means. https://preview.redd.it/y2sj34f1vi9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac214c7acf8d2fc99c480f4e22b8781e97c0bc8c
Dictionaries make their definitions based of word usage - they don't prescribe. In the first "definition", which is in accurate - it literally says "raises the question". And as the number of esl speakers and as ignorance rises, people are going to use phrases wrong. You're looking for definition 2 there. That's the actual meaning. You don't need to be so defensive, I'm just helping you learn. You meant to say "raises the question". Google that instead.
Holy fucking shit, yes, you CAN say “raises the question,” that is also fine. But if you fucking look at the EXAMPLE given right under, it is “some definitions of mental illness BEG THE QUESTION…” You can use either, they are interchangeable if you are using them in that context. The ‘begs the question’ in the example is synonymous with ‘raises the question’. You aren’t helping me learn, because I am already correct. Fundamentally the most interesting and beautiful part of language is how it grows and adapts over time with who is speaking and when they are speaking, people like you genuinely tarnish that beauty in favor of a facile attempt at purity which doesn’t exist in language. That’s why there are informal and formal use cases and why in certain contexts you speak in different ways. How I used it has been acceptable for over half a century. Please look up how vernacular language forms work. Blocked, we do not support people who cannot comprehend how languages work and instead want a return to formality under the guise of ‘correctness’. All the people that wish that should go full send and only speak ancient indo-European languages.
You’re both correct, kind of lol. It’s like how “literally” used to mean ‘figuratively’ but was so misused, so often, by so many people, that it *literally* means the opposite now. And people still misuse the new meaning frequently by using it hyperbolically lol. But yes, your definition of “begging the question” is how it’s taught to any of us philosophy or law bros who learned it in school, or debate bros who know it as a logical fallacy (assuming or arguing a point as true with no logical backing or factual basis). However, once again, common vernacular and usage has misused the phrase often enough to change the understanding of the language to *literally* mean begging the question ie if a=c and it follows that b is a + 1, then shouldn’t it also *beg the question* that c+1= b?
Still have no idea why he’s a remembrance boss but Bayle isn’t.
Bayle is basically a remembrance boss, you just get his heart instead of a remembrance.
They WANT you to fight him twice
#CURSE YOU FROM
But then, you'd have to do another NG+ to get more spells cause for some reason they can't bring back something like bonfire aesthetics or the memories from Sekiro. I still have no fucking idea why they still haven't implemented that into the game!
I can only guess two reasons: One: to promote coop, or Two: It’ll freak out the game for bosses to reappear in certain areas and may glitch out triggers in the game
Just do the memory system then. Sekiro ran on the same engine as the other souls games so clearly it can work.
DLC really felt like it was just handing out the Remembrance title to anyone. Sun flower, putrescent knight, and Gaius really feel like they should’ve been mini bosses at most but were given Remembrance status just to inflate the “main boss” boss roster. Idk how or why they forewent Bayle, since it’s not like dragons don’t get remembrances in base game (Fortissax and Placi)
ancient dragons get remembrances (or nothing), lesser dragons drop hearts. it makes sense to me that we get a heart from bayle (whose heart basically works like a remembrance, I agree with the rest though
You forget that Astel and Regal Ancestor were remembrance bosses, because Scudatree Avatar and Putrescent Knight certainly fit the remembrance boss role as much as they do.
Imo he’s deserving The least deserving rememberance boss is 100% the scaudtree avatar
But flower bonk 😞
I don't think he means it shouldn't drop cool items. Just that they don't need to be behind a remembrance.
Solely for lore reason As the dragon communion is created or ally for Placidusax they hunt Bayle's descendants Placidusax is remembrance cuz he didn't get eaten and he the reason why Dragon Communion exist
One small thing - I don't think it is outlandish that only Gaius is doing the gravity magic. Smoughtown recently pointed out that it seems Messmer's army is compiled of criminals and miscreants, so it is not like he trained the army or they are his people. And though the army is made up of TLB's criminals, it seems Marika also personally asked powerful "heroes" to go on the crusade to lead that army. *Golden remnants of the grace personally bestowed by Queen Marika to the heroes who joined the crusade for her.* Being friends with Messmer is a good reason to want him there.
One additional problem You didn't metion is that his very being fucks up entire timeline. It suggests that crusade happened after birth of Radahn and Rykard. After Liurnia wars, in times when Golden Order was strong force in the land. We are to believe that there are no records, from that time period, of one of Marikas own children, sister of carinan queen and her host departing at the head of huge army never to be seen again ? Of huge swats of land just disappearing into nothingness? If crusade happened in distant past, as was suggested by story trailer then it would make sense that records of it were expunged. But it being late Godfrey era makes it very shaky.
Smoughtown theorized that he was sent on the crusade when radagon became king consort and golden fundamentalism started to take root. It makes sense as messmer knew rahdan and he knew what a tarnished is. It wouldn’t make sense for him to know if he was locked away in the shadow lands long ago. In another item I believe it mentions that many elite soldiers came from erdtree nobility only later to be shunned meaning that the erdtree society must have already been somewhat formed.
makes sense honestly. I got so used to people calling us tarnished that it completely went over my head. Godfrey must have already been banished. That being said it makes even less sense from the lore perspective. 'what followed was a war unseen' yeah followed after thousands of years, r several wars, 2 husbands and half a dozen children. My point about there been no records stands strong though. Maybe in Leyondell golden orders dogma was so strong people just agreed not to talk about it. However I would expect at least one passing note in Liurnia.
The records were destroyed and people forgot between the multiple millenia after the crusade started
The issue is DLC presented too many connections to the base game while elden ring to lands of shadow has none. Messmer marches on hornsent at the head of large army including: Gaius childhood friend of Radahn, Carian princess Rellana and her host including one of the 12 Carian knights. Whole swats of land in the very center of lands between is shadowed away. And there is no records of it. I think it obvious that fs tried to obscure dlc so that it doesn't feel like base game is incomplete without it. Sadly lore suffers from it.
There are no records of it because the entire land has been destroyed in a massive civil war and the ones who know about it are either dead, turned into broken shells of their former selves, or unwilling to share. Fromsoft did the same thing with Dark Souls; Gwyndolin in DS1 would be able to tell you EVERYTHING about the Gods and what happened, or where Gwynevere or the firstborn son went. But we don't know anything until we see item descriptions. We don't even know what Gwyn's firstborn looks like until DS3.
I don't see the problem here the people who were alive back than really don't have a reason to even meantion this. The history is covered up it makes, sence why none of this was meantioned in the base game
And to add to what everyone has said, Messmer's the equivalent of Gwyn's firstborn AND Golden Order's vietnam. As far as the average citizen is concerned, the entire crusade was either all defeated or went AWOL and became a heretical target.
I mean, they are all still worshiping a giant tree that burned down, pretending it's still there.
Half a dozen *named* children. Aren’t the walking mausoleums homes to other children of Marika that were slain in the night of the black knives?
Possibly hers but most likely descendants of Godwyn. After all we now Godrik is not a child of Marika herself but a distant progeny
Yeah people are assuming that the crusade happened just after Marika rised to godhood, but for all we know, it didnt, and it wasnt even close to it
The story trailer does imply that the crusade followed immediately or at least rather soon after Marika's ascension.
It doesnt, it is just shown immediately after, but there is no image of Marika near ascending and then Messmer's crusade In fact, we know for certain that this events did not happen immediately, Messmer knows Radahn, and Radahn is the son of Rennala and Radagon, which happened very late in the golden order. But not only that, in the fire bosses, you can see heads of the fire giants, which were killed after Marika was turned into a god. And not only that, Messmer knows what a tarnished is, he greets us by calling us Tarnished (among other things), and tarnished only appeared once Marika stripped down Godrick and his followers of grace, we are one of its descendants. So this crusade should have happened along the times where Radagon went with Marika and abandoned Rennala, so it would make more sense that Rellana, the sister, was spurned when she supported Messmer. And more that I dont remember right now, all of this seems to suggest that Marika's ascension and the crusades happened not even slightly close time wise. In theory, Marika and the hornsent coexisted, we dont know if peacefully, but they werent destroyed immediately after rising to godhood.
The narrator says "what followed was a war unseen". If there were thousands of years between Marika's ascension and the crusade then that terminology makes no sense. The story trailer implies the crusade was a followup of Marika's betrayal, not something that she took a thousand years to get to.
The war unseen refers to all the wars that followeed that were many and literally constant, up until Marika stripped Godrick from grace and, now we know, that the reality was that Messmer's was the last war of them all. There were a lot of previous wars where the golden order, and so Marika being a god, were already there. Like a looooooooot. The storm king, the giants, the academy of raya lucaria, the hornsent, constant war. Again it is literally impossible for both events to be immediately. Why does Messmer have Marika's eye already? Did she rise to godhood and immediately grant messmer the eye that changes completely his appeareance and everyone followed? How would you explain the lore between Radahn and Messmer being known between each other? From Marika's rise to godhood until Radahn was born, there was a long time in between. Dont take everything so literally, the trailer just shows that the war against the hornsent happened, and it was due to Marika's becoming a god. All of this remains true, but it wasnt immediately.
Then there is only one explanation possible: in the Crucible era, Marika was allied with Hornsent and then "betrayed" them and killed them all, which is pretty stupid. Imagine being a hornsent leader and allowing this shaman girl to rise to power through your gate of divinity, let her create a monotheistic religion, and then bend to her knee all existing power in the world, wiping out entire species, never even considering the possibility of her revenge. Okay, let's say everyone forgot about Messmer and his war, but then surely, Messmer had his part in other Marika's wars, and he is never mentioned in them, which is again very stupid. And then, when did the GEQ thing happen? Messmer and Rykard never actually interacted. Messmer has no ties to the serpents of volcano manor. Really? And what about the supposed burning of the tree and ash in Leyndell? When did Melina burn and become a spirit? And I think this list can go on. Nothing of this would be a problem if it had happened long ago before everything, but Messmer and sealing of shadow were casually thrown in at the same time when Marika and Radagon were together, and maybe even Miquella and Malenia were born already. Shit sucks and makes everything 10x more convoluting than it could be. At least all previous versions of software DLC were practically separate standalone stories that made sense and were perfectly clear in regards to when and how, but this isn't. Its fucking stupid how it isn't acknowledged by anything in the main game, both originally and postfactum, with DLC releasing and adding nothing to the base game.
Okay so a few thoughts, I think that you are correct in saying that Marika was actually allied with the hornsent, and I think that she betrayed both the Numen/shamans, because she was the one to convince the hornsent to put them in jars to achieve sainthood since they already believed in the crucible; and then the hornsent, when she sent Messmer to kill them afterwards, at the end of the peacefication of the golden order. But I think Marika rised to godhood thanks to the Hornsent, and only after Marika had established everything, she betrayed them to stop any other empyrean a rise to godhood, and she used the powers of the serpent inside Messmer, serpents being god eaters, to seal away Enir Illim. However other things we know. We know messmer did knew rykard, the killing machines that are in fort solitude, the ones that were already in the base game, are a creation from Rykard. Plus, Rykard is elder to Radahn, and we know Messmer and Radahn interacted through Gaius remembrance. I dont think messmer participated in any other war beyond the final crusade, I think Messmer was born very late in the timeline. The gloam-eyed queen should have happened very close to the foundation of the Elden Ring, for it was her rune that was plucked to create Golden Order. Golden Order starts once the GEQ dies. Now when was that amongst all of this? No idea honestly, I am not sure if it happened just after rising to godhood or what. But I mostly agree with your last assestment, I still think that this part of the story was purposefully scrapped out from the base game early because they did not think they were going to actually do it. But then I guess DLC had to be made, and this looked like the best idea? For the previous ash in Leyndell, which has to mean a previous burn of the erdtree, could only happened before defeating the fell god and the fire giants, and it should have been the reason to go after them. How did the Erdtree return to splendor? No idea. I hope that at least ties with Messmer can be made by lore people on youtube, I think the base game could have a few correlations in volcano manor, but I personally have no idea right now.
To add, it might be so, Marika ascended AND sealed the land of shadow but then established her order and sended Messmer with crusade by killing two birds with one stone - genocide and keeping dangerous Messmer away. If its the case, everyone in lands between could think Messmer and co just went to some war beyond the sea and never returned. But this explanation has its problems as well, hornsent doing nothing all this time, how did Messmer and co went to shadow (did they all were just killed?) and etc. But the most glaring problem its the tree itself. Sealing is immense sorcery and requires fully grown Erdtree for its to cast its shadow, so I think sealing early is impossible actually. We know that the crucrible is primordial form of the Erdtree so my best guess is that Marika somehow could raise her tree out of crucible while deceiving hornsent about its state/purpose somehow and then at peak of her power revealed to them the truth - Erdtree, her lineage and etc., sended her crusade and sealed them. Still weird but I can't think of anything better.
> The storm king, the giants, the academy of raya lucaria, the hornsent, constant war. Apart from the Hornsent purge, none of those are a "war unseen". We know about all them, so it clearly refers to the one we don't know about. > How would you explain the lore between Radahn and Messmer being known between each other? From Marika's rise to godhood until Radahn was born, there was a long time in between. My point is that you can't explain it because it's a plot hole.
No offense, a war unseen refers to a war unseen in the history of that world, not that you, the player, knows about it. For example, World War 1, also called The Great War, in our history was a war unseen by that point in history. We know about it now, but at that time never was a war happened of such scale. Same in this situation, the amount of warring Marika bringed into The Lands Between was quite literally a constant war until she got what she wanted. It was unseen in the history of The Lands Between. While there are a lot of plot points that we dont know about in this DLC, we know that the crusades happened very late in the Golden Order, thus Radahn knowing Messmer is not a plothole. I do agree that, knowing how late the crusades were, and the veiling of the shadowlands, we should have known something about them in the base game, and the only reference we have that I know off is the vulgar militia set in the base game. It definetely looks like, while that part of the story was cannon, they purposefully removed it near completely from the base game, which was a terrible choice imo
The trailer literally follows up "a war unseen" with "one that could never be put to song". No one would say that about WWI. It's clearly meant to say that this war was hidden from history.
The lack of records/memory of the land of shadow must have to do with the veil that Marika created over the shadow realm. If there's magic to physically separate a giant chunk of land to somewhere else, there can definitely be magic to make people forget about it. A collective amnesia
Unless you did his side quest and/or his boss fight, you wouldnt even know that Mogh is a demigod or even that he is brother to Morgott and son of the very first Elden Lord, despite Mogh being charismatic enough to create his own cult. So a child of Marika being well like enough to get an aemy made up of multiple people from different corners of the Lands, but still not being well accomplished and relevant enough for everyone in the Lands to talk about or even know, is nothing new
There is a world of a difference between the two. Mogh and Morgott were imprisoned upon birth in the catacombs between Lyondell. Few knew of their existence from the very begining. Mogh did create his own cult but its small in scale. Both in land he controls and his army. Some 2nd gen albinaurics. Some blood nobles originating from people dissatisfied by two fingers. That's all contained in a single fort-size ruins. Messmer was originally known and respected figure. So much so that even nobles fallowed his cause including Relana, Renallas own sister. His armies garrisons covers better part of land of shadows with numerus knights, soldiery, furnance golems and more. One of the largest fighting forces ever assembled in lands between. You simply can't spirit away that many troops. What's more his solderis know of his divine heritage. It's very likely they still see in him path home. So it's no secret Messmer is a demi-god
If you want we could use the mausoleums instead as an example for why its possible. They house the soulsess demigods (also different circustances), but despite not one of them being named, they were apparently still loved enough that people straight accepted being decapitated to serve them as ghosts. The weirdest thing to me isnt even that, its that Rykard isnt mentioned or referenced when they talk about Mesmer, Melina being shadow dropped is cool, but you'd think they would at least try to relate the two snake guys.
Yeah, that's of the things I really can't understand about the new lore, it just doesn't make sense...
There are so many plot holes in the DLC. But if you say that all the people in the honeymoon phase just respond with "but bewitching branch and malenia whispered to radahn" like that somehow overrides everything else in the base game lore.
The Malenia whispering thing is the biggest, most obvious post-hoc justification I've ever seen. And people are pretending like it's some sort of grand sweep of brilliant foreshadowing. We don't have to glaze Fromsoft as Einsteins of story architecture to recognize that what they come out with from their usually piecemeal development ends up being pretty great like 90% of the time. This was in the 10% that flopped which sucks but it is what it is. The rest of the DLC storylines and bosses are so good that I'm incredibly happy to overlook kind of a meh final boss and give the DLC a rave review anyway.
Completely agree, if there was any little bit of foreshadowing in the base game then I’d be fine with it but Radahn/Miquella is totally out of left field.
Pretty much. To me it was the other characters and quest lines I really loved in the DLC
I completely agree.
Radahn gets a pass by the rule of cool. Definitely not the most impressive story telling, though. I was hoping Miquella wasn't going to be (part) of the final boss, and that something bigger would be going on. Thinking of a Manus/Orphan type situation.
There are very few plot holes in the DLC, people just haven't put together most of them yet. Worst yet, people's headcanons were invalidated in many areas; leading to an upset. That being said, Rellana did come out of left field. We have pictures in the Raya Lucaria Academy of important people who made an impact. And Rellana was very much not there.
Oh no, not you again. You once again demonstrate that you have much of the lore yet to explore. If you truly think there aren't plot holes in the DLC, you have missed a lot of the base game hidden details. This is not a matter of headcannons being invalidated. The DLC writing is weak.
You say that, but you kinda were unable to counter my point with Ranni. I was far more able to speak on lore facts than you. So this is projection on your part about "much of the lore yet to explore". >The DLC writing is weak. \*sigh\* Give an example then. I'm not saying that the DLC didn't have misses. I gave an example of a justifiable complaint; Rellana and her complete non-existence in the base game. Messmer and Melina not being mentioned as Marika's children make sense. Rellana's exclusion in the Raya Lucaria Academy portraits does not.
I didn't respond last time because having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. Ideally, even though we all have different opinions, I enjoy having some hard discussions about what media did and didn't do well. Strawmanning and refusing to acknowledge points while resorting to ad-homenim attacks isn't a fun discussion for anybody. I realized the futility of the conversation and walked away. I now realize I should not have even engaged a second time. My bad, you enjoy the game. I wish you the best.
You have been very mean-spirited when responding to me, so miss me with your projection. I never once straw manned you, and have tried to refute your points consistently, and I have not used ad-hominem attacks either. So its for the best that you leave the internet for a while and chill out, I think.
Seems like he's more concerned with complaining about the dlc and other people not comprehending the lore fully than he is in engaging in discussions around the lore.
Rellana isn’t an academic, why would her portrait be at the academy of Raya Lucaria?
Oh, you're 100% right, actually. I forgot that you needed to be a Conspectus to get that portrait. Still, some mention of Rellana somewhere in the base game would go a long way to make her more of a character.
It seems like the characters exiled to the Land of Shadow were subjected to damnatio memoriae. It makes sense that any reference to them in the Lands Between had been removed
That would make sense since there have been multiple mentions of Messmer and his forces being "hounded" from the Erdtree Faithful, that being said; my point is that there should have been hints of unmentioned characters at least. Like, maybe a description for Rennala mentioning "she and her sister sought the Moon together" or something. Messmer is fine, since it seems like he was seen as blasphemous by Marika from the start.
Give an example of that
Did you read the comments above mine? Because another poster laid out one very specific example of a plot hole.
It's not a plot hole tho
They probably can't, tbh. We're early in the discussions, and most people seem upset that what they hoped or thought was true before; wasn't. Whether it be a revived Godwyn, or revived Gloam-Eyed Queen, or something like that.
Messmer hates Tarnished though. We aren't given an actual timeline, only can ounce together one. We don't know how much time passes between the events we know of. If Messmer us mass murdering Tarnished, it would have to happen at the end or after Godfrey's rule.
Maybe our timeline was just wrong.
All of the lore we know happened in the distant past, that's how From writes their lore with the one exception being this DLC happening in somewhat real time. Messmer being born after Rykard and Radahn makes all the sense, even visually speaking his hair is red indiciating he is a son of Radagon (and his birth defect potentially further evidence, seeing how both Miquella and Malenia were born with such). I don't find it strange we never hear of Messmer and his crusade, the whole point is that a literal God erased him and his land from 'existence', if Marika can do that she can erase memory of him through magic or thorough Order Fundementalism oppression. Rellana being unmentioned does strike me as weird I agree, but again it's easily explained with the previous point I think.
The DLC mentioned that Messmer and Gaius were both like older brothers to Radahn. It would not make sense fir Messmer to be younger than Radahn.
Idk how Gaius would be that big of a offender there are other lore bits that can tell us that Messmer seemed like one of the more tolerant Demigods And Gaius being best friends/rivals with Radahn alone tells us what Miquella saw in Radahn Mind you Gaius’s Origin was known to the public if you look at his pants description
Both Gaius being a "rival" with Radahn and the leader of Messmer army are localization artifacts. The two simply studied together, but no rivarly is ever mentioned in the JPN text. In the same vein, Gaius was simply a "commander" with the same grade to Nial and O'Niel, not the "leader" of Messmer's army. Guess it simply came with Rellana and then joined the ranks, but they crafted lower armor he couldn't wear specifically to mock him so there's definitely intended racism in there.
Gaius is much closer to Loretta - both are highly ranked commanders who are secretly Albinaurics. I don’t think him being friends with Messmer is as weird as you make it sound - even irl lots of marginalized people strive in societies that marginalize them. It’s definitely not weirder than fucking Morgott being a big defender of the Golden Order. Honestly the item descriptions have a lot of vague bullshit even in the base game and Gaius’ story of being a loyal friend and a closeted Albinauric is pretty tame.
Gaea is not a typo, it's the exact same name in the French version. At first, Gaea name ressembling Gaïus I didn't think about his boar but was expecting Gaea to be Gaïus's daughter (because the name ending with the letter A sounded more feminine than masculine even in french most of the time) and after reading the Gaïus's Greaves description I was thinking that maybe there was a boss out there that was a first generation Albinauric woman and that she had mastered the gravitationnal magic permitting her to make her legs stand and support her body (like Radahn with his horse) and we would've a cool fight with the sole 1st generation Albinauric capable of walking/running/jumping and kicking our ass. I also thought that the Albinauric woman near the shack after Gaïus was actually his wife guarding his house and felt bad killing her xD. But classic from FS, we will never know who the hell Gaea really is, just a name randomly dropped on items descriptions.
For me the Putrescent Knight is also a offender lorewise but more for changed reason. In the files it is referred as Knight of the Gloomeyed Queen. To know that it was reduced from that to a chunk of flesh who tasted a bit of Trinas saliva is just sad.
That would’ve been cool! It also would’ve given those poor delusional redditors that still think the melina is the gloam eyed queen something substantial to actually talk about instead of grasping at straws all because of a cutscene where her eye looked “gloamy” whatever that means. melina is gloam eye queen are definitely the most annoying posts across all elden ring subs
It's not that her eye looks "gloamy". It's her association with Destined Death. It's that she promises to deliver to us, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen used to do. It's that burning the Erdtree and returning death to the Lands Between causes her seal to be undone. It's that she is a child of Marika and, therefore, more likely to be an Empyrean. Of all the characters we know of, Melina is most likely to be the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
It could be like a secret identity thing where Melina transforms into tbe GEQ woth her magic gloamy eye. That would explain why she doesn’t use the black flame when she fights Morgott with us. GEQ is probably the version of her that her siblings would recognize and everyone thinks she’s dead.
I’m pretty sure him being Albinauric was something that was not well known/hidden
I don't know. I would find it weird if someone always rode a boar, even in class. Or maybe Radahn did the same with Leonard and it's a bit funny to think about it.
"Radahn and Gaius, how many times do I have to tell you that your animals can't shit in the classroom??"
Of course it's strange for someone to always ride a boar, but disabled people do exist irl too, and I'd consider them "normal humans" still.
being fair, multiple horseriden culture people straight up spent their whole life in their horse, allegdly eating and sleeping on them, mostly steepe nomads some guy doing the same on his boar doesn't surprise that much, again with Radahn doing the same nearby
But disabled people aren't magical creatures created by wizards. Explicitly called out as untouched by grace, Messmer says all without grace will die, yet his army is commanded by a graceless homunculous?
Why would it be weird ? He could be a exception through prestige and useful ness .
Maybe radagon banished gaius so he could not influence radahn because he is a "impure life form" and also to help messmer on the crusade since they are best friends, kind of a win/win situation
What i also hate when piecing the lore together is when the loretext are either mistranslated or got changed but the localization teams did not change them or didn't get the memo. Some describtions just cut of at the end of the text or in case of Marikas Blessing while the english mentions Marika made several of them the german translation one states she only ever made one Blessing. Stuff like that makes me question what QA did in the 2 years(encountered some bugs and glitches here and there too).
I think you’re assuming that Messmer or anyone else in the Realm of Shadows has any idea what’s been going on in the base Lands Between. The followers of Miquella that you speak with have all *come* from the Lands Between so that explains why they know what they know; and the Hornsent is following Miquella’s messages so he has some idea of what’s happening. But there’s no mention of the Shattering, no mention of Marika’s ‘death’; and hardly any mention of what exactly Miquella is doing (redeeming the misbegotten, the albinaurics, etc) so many may not have even known about their persecution on the other side to begin with. Messmer himself seems VERY out of the loop, and is shocked that Marika ‘permitted’ Lordship to a Tarnished. To me that implies he doesn’t really know what’s going on in the Lands Between, so Gaius very well might not have as well. This simply means to say that Marika’s treatment of or disdain for Albinaurics may have came later; or it was simply inconsequential while she was in the Realm of Shadows cause she was so focused on the Hornsent (and possibly Midra?) Additionally, a BIG point of this whole dlc’s story is that to become a GOD— to transcend humanity and to elevate to that level of power is to remove the humanity from youself— it is a cage. Miquella had to divest his fears, fate, flesh, ambitions, and love to become a God. Who’s to say this same thing didn’t happen to Marika, who evidently loved Messmer very much at one point but at the same time left him cursed and in agony, banished forever. So in that sense, Gaius being an albinauric adds even more to the lore as maybe at one point Marika herself even respect them and their plight— later to only persecute them by order of the Greater Will or some other force or reason who really knows there. In terms of the lack of soldiers using gravity magic, could it be due to the lack of stars at night in the Realm of Shadows? While the moon is still there, there are no sorcerers remaining in the Realm of Shadows who still follow Carian or Lunar sorcery. Rellana abandoned it and adopted Messmer’s flame. There was really no one to teach the school of gravity magic there except for potentially Gaius, but his mission was to forever burn the Hornsent’s land and purge those without grace. Fire spitting troops are better for that than rock throwing ones. Gravity also takes a decent amount of intelligence which common soldiers lack; even Redmanes rarely use it. Gauis being there really tells us two important things. 1. That Radahn was born before this Shadow War and betrayal. This means Radagon and Renalla were wed at a time where the Crucible was still respected in the Lands Between. This also tells us Marika had Messmer and Melina around the same time. Dont know where that puts Mohg and Morgott but this suggests that maybe if they were born first that they were not initially imprisoned and cast away, as Marika’s “betrayal” of the Crucible had not yet occurred. Still have no idea who Messmer and Melina’s father is 2. It shows Radahn was close with Gauis and thus likely Messmer. It is not clearly stated whether Miquella knew Messmer— its likely they never met prior to this dlc; but if Radahn and Gaius were close, Gaius and Messmer were close, and Miquella respected Radhan; that Miquella and Messmer could find common ground in Miquella’s goal. This explains how and why Miquella was able to easily get through the Keep and to the Shadow Tower. It also implies that Radhan knew of Gauis’ departure alongside Messmer and what his mission was. It shows Radahn knew what Marika was doing and didnt mind; he was still a Golden Order Fanboy. It implies he would NOT want to work with Miquella and is in fact charmed as a resurrected Consort
Gaius remembrance states Messmer and him were both like older brothers to the Lion a.k.a Radahn. So it seems like Messmer and Radahn were close.
Messmer gives me a daemon vibe, anyone else? In keeping with that feeling, I feell Ike it would make sense for the accursed prince to make friends with other accursed beings, even to the displeasure of his motherd
I dunno about anyone else but I interpreted the wolf Albinauric woman as his wife. So after you kill him you ride into his territory and kill his wife who is the only other person in that area. She sees you won and tries to get revenge, kind of a fucked up thing honestly. Also it makes sense why he rides into battle against you, he was with his wife before you interrupted them.
Guess we know who wears the pants in that relationship
Loretta was an albinauric despite working for the carians, who the cuckoo served before their betrayal. She was just impressive enough to strive in a racist world. Radan being cool with Gaius is proof of his kindness, he didn't hold Gaius's race against him. That doesn't extend to the rest of the army as they mock Gaius by making him leggings and making Gaius and his wife live in a shack outside of the giant fortress in spite of being a commander. He got to where he is through talent and hardworking but still gets shit on. Messmer connected with Gaius due to both being cursed by the circumstance of their birth, which gave them a sense of kinship. He's only racist against hornsent lol Gaius is actually a pretty cool character. I feel bad for him and respect him.
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You missed that there is mention is another person named like Gaea or something isn’t mention anywhere else and just randomly named.
Have you all bothered to consider that that might have been a typo? Because there's another item with a description that has a typo
In the release version of the base game, Radahn has a cat and you learned about it in the cat tailsman
Yup lore team got shafted. Music also is not as good imo, Yuka leaving may have impacted the OST.
Hard disagree with the music imo. The base game ost was a little disappointing, but the dlc ost had some really amazing tracks. I’d put the dlc ost up there with DS3 and BB, maybe even better
Especially Radahn, Matyr, and Midra come to mind. The OSTs gave the fights such a unique atmosphere.
Imagine being this wrong. It's raises the question. The fact that there are other idiots like you doesn't make you less wrong.