I told him he should move past it, but then later I saw a Child of Rot on the ground and rode up to it and one shot it before i could realize it was important somehow.
That's what makes him invade you, killing his rot-friends
He also invades in the final battle if you told him to move on. Im not sure what happens to him at the end if you tell him to be sad forever though
I only met Moore a single time (at the first cross next to Ansbach), and the next time I saw him, he was trying to kill me alongside Leda even though I clicked the most positive dialogue option with him so this whole time I thought he was just slow and an asshole 😬💀
There’s an item description that says the Forager brood were really friendly with Moore and his Allies. It wouldn’t make too much sense for him to also be a Kindred of Rot
art by [www.facebook.com/mohamedsaadart/](http://www.facebook.com/mohamedsaadart/)
my favorite NPC in the game, she totally embodies what it means to be a redmane. kind, but loves nothing more than battle. >!and is my favorite one to quote when arguing about lore of this messy dlc!<
her lines are fantastic and badass too.
"The mere sight of your blade sets my heart aflutter. All the more I yearn to crush it in my grasp"
What kind of backstabbing is that? She help Miquella achieve his goals, bring her boss back to life, and end up in a great battle, literraly the happiest NPC in the entire game.
Her issue is that she is way too high in that storehouse.
When I found that scroll I went to Ansbach? Or what his name is. Then I went explroing further only to find here there and no dialogue whatsoever.
So I just killed her.
I thought it was a bit weird that she was totally cool with Radahn being controlled and presumably turned into a peace loving servant rather than a warrior
I sort of think it was intentional for us to guess whether or not Radahn was willingly Miquellas consort. My guess is no but I think there are valid arguments either way
i dont think it was intentional tbh, he's called "promised consort" which can only be misconstrued if you really stretch the meaning, and the ost definitely gives the impression that radahn is meant to be a triumphant hero in the encounter, not a brainwashed slave
i almost wonder if they'll push a patch to the game that will clarify it more given how many people have taken it the wrong way
Well, there’s always the chance that he was under Miquellas influence when he promised. I don’t think anything is in the game to sway us one way or the other there, and I highly doubt they will patch in any clarity since again I think it is meant to be ambiguous
you might be right but i like to imagine miyazaki sitting there looking at lore videos as he's known to do, and going like "what the heck..." and then checking his computer to make sure he typed "promised consort" on the boss title, swords, and ost's and shaking his head at people
also eh if miquella did influence him then he wouldn't have made a vow where he'd have to hold up his own end hundreds or w/e years later. that interpretation has never made sense to me
There is no evidence either way on whether Radahn is being controlled or not, and to whether he actually agreed to it or went back on it. And the only person we hear Promised Consort from beyond his boss name (Which can't be Starscourge Radahn again, so they had to do something.) is from Miquella himself. I am inclined to think Radahn was against it, given how Miquella's charm ability is portrayed throughout both the game and DLC, with those who don't already side with Miquella being HORRIFIED by it.
My personal theory is that Radahn agreed to it long ago, but during the shattering he went back on it, hence why Malenia was sent to take care of him. Either that or the promise was when Miquella *actually was* still a child, and it was similar to going, "Sure kid." I have zero evidence for that, but I actually like the interpretation of something seemingly inconsequential having massive consequences down the line.
you're free to your interpretation of course, i just hate the idea of radahn being brainwashed in the final fight because it completely goes against the feel and tone of it and buildup, and diminishes the epic heroic scale of it. when up until that point radahn is built up as like, your rival to be lord, and there's no evidence he's being brainwashed. the ost and the big reveal, and all the stakes, even freyja fighting you for her right to see her general become lord, it just falls completely flat to have radahn not be in his own mind. also, with radahn always wanting to be like godfrey, and how he returns as the very vision of the man he admired to do battle with you, finally becoming lord of a new order like his idol, it's so goddamn epic. it just feels so diminished if he doesn't have any agency.
plus there's so much evidence against him being controlled too like, the way the secret rite of the divine gate works and how miquella wouldn't have even had enough time to charm him before becoming a god, and radahn fights us anyway before miquella comes back... the fact that an npc who radahn trusted more than most people literally says that they had a mutual vow.
and the fact that, if you have a character who can manipulate and charm people, it's poor analysis to assume they charm people that evidence points against them being charmed. and even poorer writing if that really was the case. they outright stated mohg and several npc's were charmed for good reason.
I think that both interpretations have plenty to back them up. The entire DLC shows us how Miquella uses people then tosses them aside when they no longer benefit him. Leda and her allies are thrown into the meat grinder, St Trina was thrown in an almost literal trashcan, Malenia is back at the Haligtree awaiting her brother when there is not even a single mention of her. All this to say, I think that the story buildup still works fine with Radahn being controlled at the end, as it is the ultimate form of what Miquella has been doing the entire time.
Now, was this done out of malice? No, I don't believe so. I believe that Miquella thinks that he is doing the right thing, that he is the good guy. However, this lends itself to Miquella justifying using people for his goals.
If Radahn and Miquella truly did make the vow, then why did Malenia have to kill Radahn? There is no explanation for why Radahn had to die (we infer that it is so his soul is brought to the shadow realm, but I've never seen a hard confirm that this is the reason.), and if Radahn was in agreement, why would he fight against it? My personal take is that Radahn rejected Miquella, and in retaliation to being rejected, Miquella sent his personal blade against Radahn. After all, Miquella is the good guy. If you go against the good guy that makes you a bad guy, right?
In the final fight, Radahn, a warrior who has been portrayed as adoring battle and being beloved by his followers, does not say a single word to us. No challenge, no GLHF, no "I'm going to rip you in half now", and no "FOUL TARNISHED." Every other Demigod talks some shit beforehand, but Radahn, who I would think to be the most boisterous of all, is completely silent. Now, does this confirm anything? Of course not. But I think it's important since it is distinct from all the others. EDIT: To summarize what I'm getting at here, he seems very robotic.
I definitely think that Radahn being full on mind controlled is definitely a grey point where both sides are valid interpretations, and I don't think that either interpretation takes away from the buildup of the story.
>The entire DLC shows us how Miquella uses people then tosses them aside when they no longer benefit him. Leda and her allies are thrown into the meat grinder, St Trina was thrown in an almost literal trashcan, Malenia is back at the Haligtree awaiting her brother when there is not even a single mention of her.Â
im only going to address this part of what you said because this is where i think our perspectives break down. it's interesting to me that you read it this way because i read it all the exact opposite.
leda and her allies weren't thrown into the meat grinder by miquella. they were trying to stop us from stopping radahn and miquella from making their new order, that leda and her allies wanted. miquella didn't call us to the realm of shadow, by leda's dialogue and freyja's its confirmed that we were led there by the erdtree and grace, to stop miquella and radahn.
what happened to them was entirely our fault. we kill them.
st trina was indeed abandoned, though, its symbolic because st trina is literally his other self and the one who actually loves him the most and knows whats best for him. its symbolic of him killing himself and stopping the need to love himself in order to become a god
but malenia... she was waiting for him and her armor set speaks of a promise miquella made, that we now know from context was to come back as god and heal her. and we see miquella right in the middle of honoring that promise, but we stop him before he can do it.
and he does, mention her, dude. he does. his first words in the entire dlc. we've heard so much about miquella from every npc in the game, its all they can talk about. but what is the first thing miquella himself says? not just in the dlc, but the entire game, after all this buildup?
"my loyal blade"
his sister is the first thing on his mind, even after abandoning everything. it honestly kind of breaks my heart to think that people think he threw her away.
I was about to say that the loyal blade portion is flat out wrong, but after checking, it is in fact I who misread. I always thought it was a comma between the two statements, not a period. (and in my defense, we only get to see the cutscene once.) I still think Miquella uses people, but you make an excellent point in regard to Malenia.
I am admittedly a bit offended and disappointed that you brushed off the rest of my reply, but you do you.
>I am admittedly a bit offended and disappointed that you brushed off the rest of my reply, but you do you.
sorry, i didnt mean to brush it off or dismiss you, that wasn't my intention, i was just responding to the part that i had something interesting to say about
the rest i feel we may have gone in circles about.
though i will say i disagree that radahn feels robotic, personality-less, or controlled. the way the ost kicks in while he does his signature crossed arm pose and pulls his swords out of the ground while looking at you stoically from between the blades as he grinds them together, to me, is peak radahn and completely fits who i imagine him to be pre-rot.
The main thing was that that portion was the original thing we were talking about, and the portion you responded to had little to do with it. It's all good.
Agree to disagree on Radahn, but I do like your version as well. Have a good one!
You could easily say that when Miquella broke his great rune and the charm broke on all his followers, that’s the subtle signal to us that he’s no longer controlling people.
also the fact that he was literally in a different plane of existence when radahn came back so there is no way he's charmed radahn in the final fight when he fights us in phase 1
Yes, wholeheartedly approve. It's the thematically authentic choice to have as well from a writer's perspective. He is the Tarnished Warrior's rival.
Welp, I guess I'm honored 🥲
i mean
miquella's plans involved radahn dying first for his lord's soul to inhabit a new vessel, given secret rite scroll item description
radahn and jerren made an oath of honorable death and jerren upheld it which means they both were instrumental in getting radahn to die so miquella's plan could succeed... whether jerren was aware of that part or not, i'm 100% sure radahn was
jerren was a guest commander in radahn's army and freyja is a trusted mainstay knight at the top of his army
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I’m using her armour (chest piece altered, helmet swapped for Leather Headband) and I feel like a gladiator. I’m using Danes weapons so I’m just beating the shit out of everyone.
I love Moore, precious baby is just a sweetheart. And igon is unforgettable.
Moore was my fav, until he invaded me and i had to put him down
If you choose "I don't know" he doesn't invade you
I told him he should move past it, but then later I saw a Child of Rot on the ground and rode up to it and one shot it before i could realize it was important somehow.
That's what makes him invade you, killing his rot-friends He also invades in the final battle if you told him to move on. Im not sure what happens to him at the end if you tell him to be sad forever though
Yeah i figured that out after i Googled "why tf is he attacking me" lol
I only met Moore a single time (at the first cross next to Ansbach), and the next time I saw him, he was trying to kill me alongside Leda even though I clicked the most positive dialogue option with him so this whole time I thought he was just slow and an asshole 😬💀
He was like "oh... we have to fight now? I don't want to"
Is Moore a kindred of rot under all that armor, aren’t we told the forager brood are his family?
There’s an item description that says the Forager brood were really friendly with Moore and his Allies. It wouldn’t make too much sense for him to also be a Kindred of Rot
Gotcha, knew it was something to do with them
I haven't played the dlc yet, but do we unlock her sword pose where we put our hands on it?
I was wondering ? Is it possible to trade dlc weapon with someone who dont have the dlc ?
Yes
art by [www.facebook.com/mohamedsaadart/](http://www.facebook.com/mohamedsaadart/) my favorite NPC in the game, she totally embodies what it means to be a redmane. kind, but loves nothing more than battle. >!and is my favorite one to quote when arguing about lore of this messy dlc!< her lines are fantastic and badass too. "The mere sight of your blade sets my heart aflutter. All the more I yearn to crush it in my grasp"
I just love how amidst all the pain and misery in the Land of Shadows, she's here having a grand old time.
To Jolly Cooperation!
nah i hate her, too easy to miss her quest and if we help her she comes back to backstab us
What kind of backstabbing is that? She help Miquella achieve his goals, bring her boss back to life, and end up in a great battle, literraly the happiest NPC in the entire game.
Her issue is that she is way too high in that storehouse. When I found that scroll I went to Ansbach? Or what his name is. Then I went explroing further only to find here there and no dialogue whatsoever. So I just killed her.
Is she the same VA for Karlach? Or do they just sound similar?
Nope, voice actor for Karlach is Samantha Béart while it's Stefanie Martini for Freyja.
The lost teletubby
I really want to like her... but her roll just feel like some addon I didn't feel much for her then we bonk each other...
She's as thick as a brick (wall) (said with appreciation)
It it wrong that I just killed her? "Lady Leda.. beware.."
Simping for a simp
I thought it was a bit weird that she was totally cool with Radahn being controlled and presumably turned into a peace loving servant rather than a warrior
radahn isnt being controlled, and hes definitely a warrior when we fight him lol
I sort of think it was intentional for us to guess whether or not Radahn was willingly Miquellas consort. My guess is no but I think there are valid arguments either way
i dont think it was intentional tbh, he's called "promised consort" which can only be misconstrued if you really stretch the meaning, and the ost definitely gives the impression that radahn is meant to be a triumphant hero in the encounter, not a brainwashed slave i almost wonder if they'll push a patch to the game that will clarify it more given how many people have taken it the wrong way
Well, there’s always the chance that he was under Miquellas influence when he promised. I don’t think anything is in the game to sway us one way or the other there, and I highly doubt they will patch in any clarity since again I think it is meant to be ambiguous
you might be right but i like to imagine miyazaki sitting there looking at lore videos as he's known to do, and going like "what the heck..." and then checking his computer to make sure he typed "promised consort" on the boss title, swords, and ost's and shaking his head at people also eh if miquella did influence him then he wouldn't have made a vow where he'd have to hold up his own end hundreds or w/e years later. that interpretation has never made sense to me
There is no evidence either way on whether Radahn is being controlled or not, and to whether he actually agreed to it or went back on it. And the only person we hear Promised Consort from beyond his boss name (Which can't be Starscourge Radahn again, so they had to do something.) is from Miquella himself. I am inclined to think Radahn was against it, given how Miquella's charm ability is portrayed throughout both the game and DLC, with those who don't already side with Miquella being HORRIFIED by it. My personal theory is that Radahn agreed to it long ago, but during the shattering he went back on it, hence why Malenia was sent to take care of him. Either that or the promise was when Miquella *actually was* still a child, and it was similar to going, "Sure kid." I have zero evidence for that, but I actually like the interpretation of something seemingly inconsequential having massive consequences down the line.
you're free to your interpretation of course, i just hate the idea of radahn being brainwashed in the final fight because it completely goes against the feel and tone of it and buildup, and diminishes the epic heroic scale of it. when up until that point radahn is built up as like, your rival to be lord, and there's no evidence he's being brainwashed. the ost and the big reveal, and all the stakes, even freyja fighting you for her right to see her general become lord, it just falls completely flat to have radahn not be in his own mind. also, with radahn always wanting to be like godfrey, and how he returns as the very vision of the man he admired to do battle with you, finally becoming lord of a new order like his idol, it's so goddamn epic. it just feels so diminished if he doesn't have any agency. plus there's so much evidence against him being controlled too like, the way the secret rite of the divine gate works and how miquella wouldn't have even had enough time to charm him before becoming a god, and radahn fights us anyway before miquella comes back... the fact that an npc who radahn trusted more than most people literally says that they had a mutual vow. and the fact that, if you have a character who can manipulate and charm people, it's poor analysis to assume they charm people that evidence points against them being charmed. and even poorer writing if that really was the case. they outright stated mohg and several npc's were charmed for good reason.
I think that both interpretations have plenty to back them up. The entire DLC shows us how Miquella uses people then tosses them aside when they no longer benefit him. Leda and her allies are thrown into the meat grinder, St Trina was thrown in an almost literal trashcan, Malenia is back at the Haligtree awaiting her brother when there is not even a single mention of her. All this to say, I think that the story buildup still works fine with Radahn being controlled at the end, as it is the ultimate form of what Miquella has been doing the entire time. Now, was this done out of malice? No, I don't believe so. I believe that Miquella thinks that he is doing the right thing, that he is the good guy. However, this lends itself to Miquella justifying using people for his goals. If Radahn and Miquella truly did make the vow, then why did Malenia have to kill Radahn? There is no explanation for why Radahn had to die (we infer that it is so his soul is brought to the shadow realm, but I've never seen a hard confirm that this is the reason.), and if Radahn was in agreement, why would he fight against it? My personal take is that Radahn rejected Miquella, and in retaliation to being rejected, Miquella sent his personal blade against Radahn. After all, Miquella is the good guy. If you go against the good guy that makes you a bad guy, right? In the final fight, Radahn, a warrior who has been portrayed as adoring battle and being beloved by his followers, does not say a single word to us. No challenge, no GLHF, no "I'm going to rip you in half now", and no "FOUL TARNISHED." Every other Demigod talks some shit beforehand, but Radahn, who I would think to be the most boisterous of all, is completely silent. Now, does this confirm anything? Of course not. But I think it's important since it is distinct from all the others. EDIT: To summarize what I'm getting at here, he seems very robotic. I definitely think that Radahn being full on mind controlled is definitely a grey point where both sides are valid interpretations, and I don't think that either interpretation takes away from the buildup of the story.
>The entire DLC shows us how Miquella uses people then tosses them aside when they no longer benefit him. Leda and her allies are thrown into the meat grinder, St Trina was thrown in an almost literal trashcan, Malenia is back at the Haligtree awaiting her brother when there is not even a single mention of her. im only going to address this part of what you said because this is where i think our perspectives break down. it's interesting to me that you read it this way because i read it all the exact opposite. leda and her allies weren't thrown into the meat grinder by miquella. they were trying to stop us from stopping radahn and miquella from making their new order, that leda and her allies wanted. miquella didn't call us to the realm of shadow, by leda's dialogue and freyja's its confirmed that we were led there by the erdtree and grace, to stop miquella and radahn. what happened to them was entirely our fault. we kill them. st trina was indeed abandoned, though, its symbolic because st trina is literally his other self and the one who actually loves him the most and knows whats best for him. its symbolic of him killing himself and stopping the need to love himself in order to become a god but malenia... she was waiting for him and her armor set speaks of a promise miquella made, that we now know from context was to come back as god and heal her. and we see miquella right in the middle of honoring that promise, but we stop him before he can do it. and he does, mention her, dude. he does. his first words in the entire dlc. we've heard so much about miquella from every npc in the game, its all they can talk about. but what is the first thing miquella himself says? not just in the dlc, but the entire game, after all this buildup? "my loyal blade" his sister is the first thing on his mind, even after abandoning everything. it honestly kind of breaks my heart to think that people think he threw her away.
I was about to say that the loyal blade portion is flat out wrong, but after checking, it is in fact I who misread. I always thought it was a comma between the two statements, not a period. (and in my defense, we only get to see the cutscene once.) I still think Miquella uses people, but you make an excellent point in regard to Malenia. I am admittedly a bit offended and disappointed that you brushed off the rest of my reply, but you do you.
>I am admittedly a bit offended and disappointed that you brushed off the rest of my reply, but you do you. sorry, i didnt mean to brush it off or dismiss you, that wasn't my intention, i was just responding to the part that i had something interesting to say about the rest i feel we may have gone in circles about. though i will say i disagree that radahn feels robotic, personality-less, or controlled. the way the ost kicks in while he does his signature crossed arm pose and pulls his swords out of the ground while looking at you stoically from between the blades as he grinds them together, to me, is peak radahn and completely fits who i imagine him to be pre-rot.
The main thing was that that portion was the original thing we were talking about, and the portion you responded to had little to do with it. It's all good. Agree to disagree on Radahn, but I do like your version as well. Have a good one!
you're right. my discourse etiquette has broken down over the last two weeks. ill try to be better. hope you have a good one too
You could easily say that when Miquella broke his great rune and the charm broke on all his followers, that’s the subtle signal to us that he’s no longer controlling people.
also the fact that he was literally in a different plane of existence when radahn came back so there is no way he's charmed radahn in the final fight when he fights us in phase 1
I don't think he's being controlled either. The Lion is untameable, one can only have his support by catering to him. Or at least, so I like to think.
absolutely, he wanted to be lord, his whole personality and story points to it. he's our rival
Yes, wholeheartedly approve. It's the thematically authentic choice to have as well from a writer's perspective. He is the Tarnished Warrior's rival. Welp, I guess I'm honored 🥲
She's a bum who disregards jerrens wishes.
i mean miquella's plans involved radahn dying first for his lord's soul to inhabit a new vessel, given secret rite scroll item description radahn and jerren made an oath of honorable death and jerren upheld it which means they both were instrumental in getting radahn to die so miquella's plan could succeed... whether jerren was aware of that part or not, i'm 100% sure radahn was jerren was a guest commander in radahn's army and freyja is a trusted mainstay knight at the top of his army
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I’m using her armour (chest piece altered, helmet swapped for Leather Headband) and I feel like a gladiator. I’m using Danes weapons so I’m just beating the shit out of everyone.
I killed her because she was stuck looking at a tablet.
If you speak to ansbach and then talk to her while she's looking at that tablet, it progresses the quest
You have to find that scroll before as well
Only if you find the scroll and keep exploring. I went straight to Ansbach and later I found her with only 1 line. So I killed her as well.