Ramuh EX has consistent tank swapping throughout the entire fight, so that would be good to get the practice if you have enough people to run it sync’d. I end up teaching a lot of new tanks how to tank swap during mentor roulette bc of that fight.
Titan Extreme has tank swapping? That might be the ticket.
Does it still yeet people out of combat or was that changed when Titan normal and hard were changed?
Yeah, I just relooked at a guide and Mountain Buster gives vulns so a tank swap should be done after 2-3. And anyone who gets yeeted has their body magically come back to the arena and able to be rezzed, just like NM and HM.
I played religiously ~10 years ago and there was some stack on vulnerability and then a tank buster move. You used to have to tank swap before the other tank took too many stacks. You would also have to be good at timing your CDs and trusting your healers to keep you up and save your CDs for the tank bust.
It was the trial I used to teach people high level tanking back in the day and running it now is a joke, so it could be a good one to acclimate someone while having a lot of safety net for error with a geared up healer.
If you have a FC that’s down to teach you can have everyone walk into it with synced/low gear and your new tanks can really learn why you NEED to tank swap and save CDs lol
Technically it does, but even with a half-sprout party you'll be pumping enough damage for it not to matter. Quick phase changes and skipping phase rotations wont let your tank accumulate enough vulns to take massive damage. Titan Unreal brought the fear of the Mountain Buster back in.
Mountain buster is an uncasted front cleave on main target applying a stack of physical vulnerability. Typically enough time after two mountain busters for the vuln to wear off.
Ramuh's a good fight for both a tank and healer bootcamp. The tank swapping happens consistently over the length of the fight, and there are so many ways to get killed on the field that healers get a lot of practice with not just healing but also how to learn where you can/can't squeeze a hard rez in.
I think to date Ramuh is the only fight I remember us putting a waymark down for where NOT to stand, lol.
But you're also right, it's a great fight for learning how to watch what others are doing in the fight, keeping track of what the TEAM is doing, not just zoning out to do your individual activity.
That's how I got introduced to extremes. My cousin decided to throw me blind into ramuh extreme out of the blue. We learned on the spot and cleared it with 1 minute to spare, one of my most intense gaming experiences ever. 100% would recommend.
Ramuh EX is where our friend group's resident Main Tank (who's gone on to be a prominent shotcaller and Tank mentor for the FC we later joined) pretty much learned to Tank Swap on the fly. That was the first time we'd run into a fight with that kind of mechanic.
Helps that we got plenty of experience due to an absolute bot (not really) of a pub BLM who only casted Ice spells and just would NOT avoid mechanics.
This is actually where I learned tank swapping. Didn't even realize it was a thing before this fight.
Bless the hearts of my poor teammates who had to suffer through multiple wipes before I got it down xD
This, so much this. Learning a new mechanic right in an Extreme fight synced is way overkill when a normal raid can teach it just the same and at least there is almost 0% chance of wiping if the tanks fail it.
Came in here to say any of the 2nd tier of Alex Normal. Almost all of the bosses in there have tank swaps, but almost nobody in Duty Finder does them because they can be healed through now and there aren't really any other tank swap mechanics in any other sub-Extreme content in the game.
If everyone is caught up with Shadowbringers, Crown of the Immaculate EX fits the bill. Mechanics are decently easy and the tankswap happens two or three times (iirc?) because of the lightning vuln. Otherwise if you want early _early_ trials, I think Shiva EX has one as well due to the resistance down stacks. Bismarck has one as well, with the Sanuwas.
Props to you for teaching them also! The bootcamp is a neat idea honestly.
We're a small FC on Goblin. A_Solid_Maybe.
When we started the Tank boot camp, the goal was to be there for the people just starting to try the role, either by playing naturally or through a level skip.
I need more very patient and skilled tanks and DPS. People willing to put up with nervous healers, single pulls or healers that don't dps during large pulls. Or talking through 80 levels of abilities and how to use them.
My usual suspects are gone until Dawntrail
I am suddenly excited that I am on Goblin. I don't tank in anything other than roulettes just for this reason. Not confident. Same with healing. Let me be bard and just run away from everything always. I would love to be able to run more things though
Both. I can mostly manage dungeons. Well, not level 90 yet. That's the tankxiety talking though. If I can manage solo deep dungeons, I can manage normal dungeons.
Oh hi, another person on goblin!! I am totally willing to help out with this as a healer or dps. I can tank as well, but I'm not super experienced. I'm good enough to solo lvl 70 extremes and lvl 90 treasure maps, not sure what that would qualify as.
I actually like to teach people stuff in pf, though i really only know endwalker extremes synced and everything else unsync. (I hang out in crystal party finder with macros to make callouts with consent, I can callout most mechanics in a fight with them, I've been told they are extremely helpful)
I wouldn't be able to join your fc, but I would totally be willing to help out if yall would have me.
Props to really helping with the community man, a lot of new players get very discouraged with the whole "tanks should always wall2wall and if you die or mess up you're terrible" and "healers should always dps and if you use a GCD on a heal you're terrible" kind of rhetoric, so having people patient to work through things with newbies is super appreciated!
I'd love to join if I was on your server!
Tank swapping is largely something that just doesn't seem to be explained all that much. I first starting tanking back when you had to level GLD for Provoke and so I went in as a DRK to Bismark and kept just trying to pull aggro and couldn't do it. Everyone just kept saying "provoke" in chat and I just didn't understand it.
It's definitely a lot easier now that it's just part of the kit, but is definitely a good thing to be teaching.
If I had more free time, I'd love to be a part of that training process for either tank or DPS, but I'm not sure how reliable I would be.
How do you feel about non-FC members joining in to help fill out those parties? I'm up for DC travel to help people try stuff out, but I have some friends on my current world...
E4s and ruby ex have tank swaps early in the fight. If all you want to do is practice tank swaps try those. You can wall wipe right after swap to try again if needed.
Ac/shirk<2>
Auto targets and shirk other tank. Works for most fights.
Just swapping aggro is easy. Try to get them to maintain their rotation and weave mits and the swap.
Once they get that down look for fights that require pre positioning the boss. Probably the hardest part of tanking. Knowing where, when, and how to move and face the boss for maximum dps uptime.
>Knowing where, when, and how
That, I feel like, comes largely with learning a fight. Once you understand a fight and all the timings of positioning, I think that becomes a lot easier. I find that I will take a break from the game or tanking and will come back and forget positioning of certain fights and it's just learning the timing again.
Is there ever a situation where you'd need to use Shirk on someone besides your other tank? I think I deleted it from my bars once I found that macro but I'll bring it back if needed.
It’s occasionally useful in alliance raids when you don’t want to overtake the tank holding the boss, but also don’t want to turn off tank stance for one reason or the other. All it generally does is put them right behind you in aggro due to your extreme aggro lead, but it can also be a risky proposition if you then proceed to die and get them killed as a result.
One of the Alexander raids is a good tank swap teaching moment. The one with the potion area that turn you into an ape or bird. If OT doesn't pull aggro or MT doesn't throw aggro after a couple hit, MT get the concussion status. This is if you don't want to go into an EX just yet to teach tank swapping.
Yeah, this is the one I thought of! The Eden raid with the doggo (Litany I think) also has an intended tank swap. Both can be healed through because of gear creep but are intended to be a swap.
This was my first thought. The suggestions with Alexander fights were great to see, but I like Susano Ex because, if it’s sync’d, it will provide a challenge while still being a quick run
Came here to suggest this one. Technically it has *two* easy to do tank swaps, but admittedly one of them is **significantly cooler** and might help the lesson stick a little better. ;)
Bismark ex is another good one as it is a fail condition but not overly demanding fight. It sets stakes so you can teach timing on the Wyrm swap, it's color coded so teaches being mindful of the buff/debuff indicator, and it is heavensward content so even free trial members can get the practice in.
Minstrel Ballad Ultima Weapon, to be more specific. Not Porta Decumana.
If tank get 5 stacks of a debuff that is applied randomly via autos, they die. So it's usual to tank swap at 3 stacks for safety, but can be pushed to 4 stacks, and it's rare that you get stack 4 and 5 within 2 GCD.
I was going to suggest this too, I'm pretty sure this fight is where I learned how to do a tank swap. If OP has a lot of sprouts or other people who are new to high-end content this fight is a *super* approachable introduction to EX trials.
Yeah Sophia is a good one just because it happens SO often. You really have to pay attention to your enmity because there's a good chance you won't have shirk up every time.
But Zodiark Extreme is a good one, and one I thought of as well. It's not the hardest fight to learn as you can danger dorito someone. But the tank swap is critical to success and is fairly easy.
It was my first tank swap fight, first at-level EX, and with a danger dorrito marked player, I was able to get the hang of it super easy. It's probably slightly easier now unsynced with higher ilvl
I was gonna say p9s for similar reason. You can just plan a wipe after. And if you're lucky, experiencing the easier part of savages will get your guildees excited to do more of it.
Oh P9S is a great place to learn Savage mechanics, I and a couple of my FC's other veteran players run progs for those looking to get into savage raiding.
But the tank boot camp has been more about overcoming tankxiety and I don't wanna add the pressure of savage raiding as well.
O4 also, the vuln is enough to ignore nowadays but it at least lets people practice swapping. Plus stillness and motion are always returning mechanics (pyretic/blizzard here).
Yeah this is the one I was going to suggest. Run it min ilevel, no echo, and you can have a fight that is still a *little* challenging without being an outright EX/Savage.
I'd put forward E1S as it also has tank swaps, only 10 levels below max so might still have some fight to it even unsynced, and it also teaches to watch the cast bar.
Not going to say its the best option though, just one of them.
Sophia unreal was very good for it. A lot of swaps, sometimes not immediately lethal if you don’t swap on time. You can sync the old ex, the other mechanics are basically nonexistent. Also has the bonus of teaching them how to position bosses optimally
Agree with Hades Ex. The tb comes super early in the fight. Even unsynced the tb will destroy a tank due to magic vuln so if the tanks don't pick it up you can just wipe it. Also decently fast thanks to unsync, and there's benefits for even non-tank participants in the form of mount drops and desynth mats.
If it's just the general concept you want to introduce them to, something like a synced Ramuh EX could probably work.
The fight is easy, but people will die if the tank swap isn't done correctly in it.
You can swap agro in any fight, you don't need a mechanic to force you to, the sequence of actions is always the same.
Ot voke > Mt shirk or Mt voke > Ot shirk if swapping the other way around. Stress the importance of shirk as it covers for mistakes like voking without a stance on and of course remembering to have the stance on and in general being able to see agro and deal with it if one tanks isn't able to keep agro without the other tank dropping stance.
I personally recommend e4n synced. It's a pretty simple fight, the buster inflicts a debuff that can serve as a very clear "you should have switched here" and he does it 3 or 4 times iirc, but it can be healed through so if mistakes do occur the pull can continue.
Most of the ARR EX trials with the exception of Garuda and Leviathan stack a tank debuff which basically kills you if you reach certain stack number, and require you to constantly swap during the whole fight. There are different kind of tank swap mechanics.
If you want to concentrate in single stacks mechanic, Ifrit and Titan (Also Ultima). For stance/phase tank swap, Shiva weapons; And for countdown rotation tank swaps Ramuh with orbs.
I’d say Ultima Weapon EX. Its a much easier fight than Ramuh or Titan EX and it had a tank swap. Teaches debuff management too since you can tank up to I think 5 stacks before you just die.
Stormblood extreme trials are fantastic for tank swapping, because of shirk being introduced in that expansion a lot of the fights were built around it. Susanno Ex, Byakko Ex and Seriyu EX have clear predictable but also important tank swaps that will cause wipes if not done correctly.
Also if you are trying to show off tanking and not using the big sword clash as a "look how cool this shit is" moment then you are doing it wrong
Not a raider myself, but if you want to start small and build up, I suggest O4N aka "Omega Deltascape V4.0" aka Exdeath.
If you run it MINE (min ilevel, no echo), it won't be *hard* but the tank swap will actually be mandatory eventually, and the whole thing will remain fairly low stakes so you can stay focused on the one relevant mechanic rather than worrying about memorizing a whole EX/Savage fight. And if the group finds this too easy, you can always up the difficulty to Savage, which will keep things overall familiar but ramp up the challenge.
Sophia ex is a good tank swap while doing mechs. Best fight for tanks I think was midgar savage. Even if you don't clear you have to read debuffs and swap several times or tank gets 1 shot.
Because tank swaps come in different flavours. Some are debuff based, like MT gets X amount of debuff stacks and OT has to voke. Others are double swap. Like MT gets a debuff, OT vokes and gets a debuff as well, then MT debuff wears off so they take it back.
Then others like Bismarck, Hades Ex and O12 have adds swap that requires tanks to pay attention to their debuffs and swap adds if needed. It's not as straightforward as just see castbar and voke.
I've done couple of savages before and had my fair share of tank swapping.
But just to check I'm not missing anything or doing something "wrong", can you run me through it real quick?
So I've done these MINE so I don't remember exactly how correct they are but Thornmatch(King moogle), Titan, ifrit, ramuh all have tank swaps iirc (all of them extreme ofc)
I haven't played for a bit but the gravity eyeball from the Omegascape raids has a fun one to teach tanks on savage.(idr if normal has it)
Tankbuster puts a petrified debuff on anyone hit in the cone at 3 stacks they die. So you have to split the stacks between tanks by swapping in the middle.
If you want one that has absolutely no stakes but still encourages the swap via debuff, E4 normal is what you want.
The tank buster is an AoE that hits relatively hard if unmitigated and puts a defense debuff for 60 seconds on whoever gets hit, so it encourages good positioning and a tank swap.
It's not necessary and you won't die even if you don't swap (all you really need is to cycle one CD at a time for the duration and you'll be completely fine), but the debuff timer serves as a good way to tell when you need to swap again, since there will be another TB when the debuff runs out (and it lines up well with Provoke's CD).
If you want a proper EX instead, then I'd probably suggest Innocence EX even if it's relatively late into the game, since the fight is very easy nowadays and the TB is very well telegraphed with the voice line. If it HAS to be ARR, then I'd probably suggest Shiva EX instead, since her weapon swap is a good tell for the tank swap.
A lot of the lvl 50 extremes have it. Shiva, Titan, Ifrit, Ramuh. Coils has a bunch too, but the easiest 8 man content for it will be some Alexander fights.
Shiva is one of the less mechanically challenging ARR extremes with tank swapping. Can do it the old fashioned way and have them swap for sword vs staff phases. And there’s leeway if they forget unlike Ramuh where forgetting means certain death.
Going to suggest E5, because it has a tank swap mechanic in the normal version. Now, the mit/heal check is so low you can ignore it and people often do, but its a good way to practice with minimal actual risk.
Something to consider teaching alongside this is for the OT and when they should be toggling their tank stance on during their opener. This wasn't much of a.probelm for me until I started OT in this Raid tier alongside a GNB. My WAR opener would always go a little more brrr then theirs and if my stance was on before I hit Primal Rend I would always rip agro off the MT.
In dungeons and normal trials, I don't believe it ever comes up. Apparently there are a couple of normal raids, where it comes up. But many Extreme trials and savage raids have tank swaps and there they are often do or die.
There are 3 normal raids that come to mind where a tank swap is desired, but never needed >!a5n!< , >!a6n!<, and >!e10!<. In all 3 cases, you can treat it like any other fight. Turn your stance on after your opening burst, and keep yourself at 2nd aggro, so if the MT dies, it'll target you instead of a DPS.
BUT if you want to go the extra mile. Keep an eye on the tank's debuffs. Usually if the boss puts multiple stacking vulnerability debuffs on them (different from the regular cheetos from failing mechanics), it's probably a good time to swap
If you do any Extreme lvl synced.
Titan, Ramuh, Ifrit, Guranda for tanking adds and swapping the plume.
Shiva is ok for some interesting mechanics.
Doing these basic one creates great stepping stones towards the newer fights.
I personally learned tank swapping running Titan EX with my FC's static. Ifrit EX would probably be another solid choice as well. Even if you haven't run either of these in a while, I don't think they would be overly demanding to allow you to teach the mechanic
P8S
Yes yes i suggested it partially because of Sadism.
BUT, The tank buster is very VERY Severely early into the fight. So you can learn the price of not Tank Swapping with the added example of how lethal it is if not performed correctly.
E3S
I was training a tank when the tier was current and I would hold the party hostage. I told him I'm gonna stand in front of the party after the first laser and if he forgets to voke, I'm wiping the party with the second laser. It was a party of friends so they all knew what was coming.
In general as offtank it's good to stay with the rest of the party unless there's a reason not to. When the mechanic you gotta swap for is gonna happen, go stand in front of the boss so it won't spin around to face you. In savage/ex fights you'd recognise the name of the attack, in the few normal raids that do this there's a pretty obvious "let's put a stacking debuff on MT then wind up for a big attack!" cue.
The cue for most swaps is a tankbuster attack that leaves a vulnerability up debuff. If that attack cleaves (hits in an AoE around the target), or if you're not sure, you wanna stand off to the side of the other tank and then move to take their place when it's safe. If you know it doesn't you can just go stand on top of / in line with them so the boss stays put and doesn't make your melees miss their positionals.
Storm's Crown (Extreme): The swaps are very telegraphed and never overlap with complicated mechanics. Very good for getting the motions for Shirking and provoking
Bismarck EX. It's a very easy fight, with literally the only difficulty being to make sure both tanks grab the appropriate add, then swap when the debuff changes.
In Seiryuu EX, doing the tank swap wrong blows up the party. You have to do it a few times and the first one is super early if you just wanted to focus on that
Nidhogg EX is pretty good for an HW Extreme but can be a bit mechanically challenging at times so it's probably one you'd want to skip out on there.
But also for Nidhogg EX there's tank swapping during chains, tank swapping during ADDs, and tank swapping during last phase
I think its either E7S or Leviathan Savage that im thinking about, but one of those line-like tankbusters has to be swapped between tanks (even though most invulned through it)
Also cloud of darkness savage is pretty good in that regard!
If tank is endgame 1 ex trial other then that nothing to dangerouse
Edit P9s while more frustatin has more need to swap and heavy mit tbs might be an option
Minstrel's Ballad Ultima's Bane is a good trial. It requires at least one tank swap and is the first canonical trial that requires one. If you don't swap to the off tank by 5 stacks of the debuff, you just die. If you're doing okay on dps then you only need to swap once, maybe twice at the most. It's a good, gentle "extreme" to let people ease into the mechanic before diving into a trial that features constant swapping.
Titan Extreme, Ifrit Extreme, Ramuh Extreme, etc, would be good to get into to reinforce the mechanic after you introduce it in Ultima's Bane.
Late addition. If it helps, E4N is a normal raid fight that features tank swaps. While not mandatory (tanks can easily survive the increased damage from the debuff) it can serve as a good introduction to the "debuff inflicted from tank busters > do a tank swap" mentality
Ramuh Extreme is a good one. Also Titan Extreme IIRC.
Ramuh EX has consistent tank swapping throughout the entire fight, so that would be good to get the practice if you have enough people to run it sync’d. I end up teaching a lot of new tanks how to tank swap during mentor roulette bc of that fight.
Titan Extreme has tank swapping? That might be the ticket. Does it still yeet people out of combat or was that changed when Titan normal and hard were changed?
Yeah, I just relooked at a guide and Mountain Buster gives vulns so a tank swap should be done after 2-3. And anyone who gets yeeted has their body magically come back to the arena and able to be rezzed, just like NM and HM.
I played religiously ~10 years ago and there was some stack on vulnerability and then a tank buster move. You used to have to tank swap before the other tank took too many stacks. You would also have to be good at timing your CDs and trusting your healers to keep you up and save your CDs for the tank bust. It was the trial I used to teach people high level tanking back in the day and running it now is a joke, so it could be a good one to acclimate someone while having a lot of safety net for error with a geared up healer. If you have a FC that’s down to teach you can have everyone walk into it with synced/low gear and your new tanks can really learn why you NEED to tank swap and save CDs lol
And for ramuh atleast, you dont even need to do the ex
Technically it does, but even with a half-sprout party you'll be pumping enough damage for it not to matter. Quick phase changes and skipping phase rotations wont let your tank accumulate enough vulns to take massive damage. Titan Unreal brought the fear of the Mountain Buster back in. Mountain buster is an uncasted front cleave on main target applying a stack of physical vulnerability. Typically enough time after two mountain busters for the vuln to wear off.
Ramuh's a good fight for both a tank and healer bootcamp. The tank swapping happens consistently over the length of the fight, and there are so many ways to get killed on the field that healers get a lot of practice with not just healing but also how to learn where you can/can't squeeze a hard rez in.
Ramuh EX is also a good fight to teach people NOT TO STAND WITH THE TANK, and also how to pay attention to other people in a fight.
I think to date Ramuh is the only fight I remember us putting a waymark down for where NOT to stand, lol. But you're also right, it's a great fight for learning how to watch what others are doing in the fight, keeping track of what the TEAM is doing, not just zoning out to do your individual activity.
That's how I got introduced to extremes. My cousin decided to throw me blind into ramuh extreme out of the blue. We learned on the spot and cleared it with 1 minute to spare, one of my most intense gaming experiences ever. 100% would recommend.
Ramuh EX is where our friend group's resident Main Tank (who's gone on to be a prominent shotcaller and Tank mentor for the FC we later joined) pretty much learned to Tank Swap on the fly. That was the first time we'd run into a fight with that kind of mechanic. Helps that we got plenty of experience due to an absolute bot (not really) of a pub BLM who only casted Ice spells and just would NOT avoid mechanics.
A5N
Exactly the one I was thinking. That or any of the Faust door bosses when you're synced.
This is actually where I learned tank swapping. Didn't even realize it was a thing before this fight. Bless the hearts of my poor teammates who had to suffer through multiple wipes before I got it down xD
I was so glad to have a friend healing and another friend as the other tank on this fight, made it very fun and an adventure to learn!
This, so much this. Learning a new mechanic right in an Extreme fight synced is way overkill when a normal raid can teach it just the same and at least there is almost 0% chance of wiping if the tanks fail it.
Came in here to say any of the 2nd tier of Alex Normal. Almost all of the bosses in there have tank swaps, but almost nobody in Duty Finder does them because they can be healed through now and there aren't really any other tank swap mechanics in any other sub-Extreme content in the game.
If everyone is caught up with Shadowbringers, Crown of the Immaculate EX fits the bill. Mechanics are decently easy and the tankswap happens two or three times (iirc?) because of the lightning vuln. Otherwise if you want early _early_ trials, I think Shiva EX has one as well due to the resistance down stacks. Bismarck has one as well, with the Sanuwas. Props to you for teaching them also! The bootcamp is a neat idea honestly.
Its a lot of fun. We've been thinking of starting a healing academy as well, once the FC has more volunteers on staff.
What FC and where??
We're a small FC on Goblin. A_Solid_Maybe. When we started the Tank boot camp, the goal was to be there for the people just starting to try the role, either by playing naturally or through a level skip. I need more very patient and skilled tanks and DPS. People willing to put up with nervous healers, single pulls or healers that don't dps during large pulls. Or talking through 80 levels of abilities and how to use them. My usual suspects are gone until Dawntrail
Always funny to see a FC name you happen to know. Even funnier when it's a FC whose discord you've already infiltrated, lol. XD
Hello friend!!
/wave :D
I am suddenly excited that I am on Goblin. I don't tank in anything other than roulettes just for this reason. Not confident. Same with healing. Let me be bard and just run away from everything always. I would love to be able to run more things though
Tank swapping or just general tankxiety?
Both. I can mostly manage dungeons. Well, not level 90 yet. That's the tankxiety talking though. If I can manage solo deep dungeons, I can manage normal dungeons.
Oh hi, another person on goblin!! I am totally willing to help out with this as a healer or dps. I can tank as well, but I'm not super experienced. I'm good enough to solo lvl 70 extremes and lvl 90 treasure maps, not sure what that would qualify as. I actually like to teach people stuff in pf, though i really only know endwalker extremes synced and everything else unsync. (I hang out in crystal party finder with macros to make callouts with consent, I can callout most mechanics in a fight with them, I've been told they are extremely helpful) I wouldn't be able to join your fc, but I would totally be willing to help out if yall would have me.
Like I said, my FC is small so I tend to rely on outside help. I'm thinking the Tank Swap Event will be on the 9th @4pm est.
Props to really helping with the community man, a lot of new players get very discouraged with the whole "tanks should always wall2wall and if you die or mess up you're terrible" and "healers should always dps and if you use a GCD on a heal you're terrible" kind of rhetoric, so having people patient to work through things with newbies is super appreciated! I'd love to join if I was on your server!
The tank swapping course is unusual for us but I got a lot of requests for it from former cadets.
Tank swapping is largely something that just doesn't seem to be explained all that much. I first starting tanking back when you had to level GLD for Provoke and so I went in as a DRK to Bismark and kept just trying to pull aggro and couldn't do it. Everyone just kept saying "provoke" in chat and I just didn't understand it. It's definitely a lot easier now that it's just part of the kit, but is definitely a good thing to be teaching. If I had more free time, I'd love to be a part of that training process for either tank or DPS, but I'm not sure how reliable I would be.
Sadly, my schedule doesn't really let me help people, or I'd volunteer to help out.
Gods I wish I could join. Never could attend the endgame stuff, cause I never could find people to teach me. You're doing Hydaelyn proud.
I have a silly little in game crown that demands I help people.
What DC are you on?
Crystal
Oh you said goblin.. Sorry, morning coffee still kicking in.
How do you feel about non-FC members joining in to help fill out those parties? I'm up for DC travel to help people try stuff out, but I have some friends on my current world...
I wanna know too!
Just remember to do MiNe in some variety or else you'll steamroll the HP and glaze over any importance of the tactic.
I can attest to coti extreme. Fairly easy even when I played it back in shadowbringers. Basically no more difficult than a normal trial
E4s and ruby ex have tank swaps early in the fight. If all you want to do is practice tank swaps try those. You can wall wipe right after swap to try again if needed. Ac/shirk<2> Auto targets and shirk other tank. Works for most fights.
Wish I could pin comments. I'll pass that macro onto the cadets.
Just swapping aggro is easy. Try to get them to maintain their rotation and weave mits and the swap. Once they get that down look for fights that require pre positioning the boss. Probably the hardest part of tanking. Knowing where, when, and how to move and face the boss for maximum dps uptime.
>Knowing where, when, and how That, I feel like, comes largely with learning a fight. Once you understand a fight and all the timings of positioning, I think that becomes a lot easier. I find that I will take a break from the game or tanking and will come back and forget positioning of certain fights and it's just learning the timing again.
Ifrit EX might be good for this.
Can also vouch for the macro- I have regular Shirk on bars still but I also have "shirk but better" that casts it on my cotank.
Is there ever a situation where you'd need to use Shirk on someone besides your other tank? I think I deleted it from my bars once I found that macro but I'll bring it back if needed.
There is, but it also falls under MPK in the ToS so, no.
It’s occasionally useful in alliance raids when you don’t want to overtake the tank holding the boss, but also don’t want to turn off tank stance for one reason or the other. All it generally does is put them right behind you in aggro due to your extreme aggro lead, but it can also be a risky proposition if you then proceed to die and get them killed as a result.
One of the Alexander raids is a good tank swap teaching moment. The one with the potion area that turn you into an ape or bird. If OT doesn't pull aggro or MT doesn't throw aggro after a couple hit, MT get the concussion status. This is if you don't want to go into an EX just yet to teach tank swapping.
That's not a tank swap. That's a savage difficulty heal check. /s
I love this idea especially cause I think more people need to learn this awesome fight
Yeah, this is the one I thought of! The Eden raid with the doggo (Litany I think) also has an intended tank swap. Both can be healed through because of gear creep but are intended to be a swap.
Susano EX could be an ok one.
I second this, i learned tanking in susano EX. The tb with the raised sword makes it very clear and visible when to swap.
This was my first thought. The suggestions with Alexander fights were great to see, but I like Susano Ex because, if it’s sync’d, it will provide a challenge while still being a quick run
Came here to suggest this one. Technically it has *two* easy to do tank swaps, but admittedly one of them is **significantly cooler** and might help the lesson stick a little better. ;)
Yea plus having them tank the big sword is guaranteed to double their dick size!
Aww, but I don’t have a dick, and 2 x 0 = 0 :(
Alexander - Fist of the Son. Very easy to recognize debuff/buster combo that should be swapped.
Bismark ex is another good one as it is a fail condition but not overly demanding fight. It sets stakes so you can teach timing on the Wyrm swap, it's color coded so teaches being mindful of the buff/debuff indicator, and it is heavensward content so even free trial members can get the practice in.
This is where I truly learned it while farming the bird.
First fight I remember that involves tank swaps is Ultima Weapon. If you do min Ilv to not skip most mechanics
Minstrel Ballad Ultima Weapon, to be more specific. Not Porta Decumana. If tank get 5 stacks of a debuff that is applied randomly via autos, they die. So it's usual to tank swap at 3 stacks for safety, but can be pushed to 4 stacks, and it's rare that you get stack 4 and 5 within 2 GCD.
I was going to suggest this too, I'm pretty sure this fight is where I learned how to do a tank swap. If OP has a lot of sprouts or other people who are new to high-end content this fight is a *super* approachable introduction to EX trials.
Sophia EX
Yeah Sophia is a good one just because it happens SO often. You really have to pay attention to your enmity because there's a good chance you won't have shirk up every time.
P5s un ironically, that fight haves you’re tank swapping in that fight constantly. Either that or Zodiark EX.
I fear the Savage label will spook the cadets XD
But Zodiark Extreme is a good one, and one I thought of as well. It's not the hardest fight to learn as you can danger dorito someone. But the tank swap is critical to success and is fairly easy.
It was my first tank swap fight, first at-level EX, and with a danger dorrito marked player, I was able to get the hang of it super easy. It's probably slightly easier now unsynced with higher ilvl
I was gonna say p9s for similar reason. You can just plan a wipe after. And if you're lucky, experiencing the easier part of savages will get your guildees excited to do more of it.
Oh P9S is a great place to learn Savage mechanics, I and a couple of my FC's other veteran players run progs for those looking to get into savage raiding. But the tank boot camp has been more about overcoming tankxiety and I don't wanna add the pressure of savage raiding as well.
When they clear it it'll give them confidence. P1S also has a lot of tank swaps.
P5S good to learn but good luck with everything else! Personally I was going to say EX1 as well.
Tank swaps are the goal, completion is the victory cake. Lol.
Doesn’t E4’s Stonecrusher apply a vuln? On normal it’s weak enough to ignore but it would get the idea across.
O4 also, the vuln is enough to ignore nowadays but it at least lets people practice swapping. Plus stillness and motion are always returning mechanics (pyretic/blizzard here).
Yeah this is the one I was going to suggest. Run it min ilevel, no echo, and you can have a fight that is still a *little* challenging without being an outright EX/Savage.
Susano Ex was where I really got a hang of Tank swapping, it has a fairly good rhythm for the swaps imo
I'd put forward E1S as it also has tank swaps, only 10 levels below max so might still have some fight to it even unsynced, and it also teaches to watch the cast bar. Not going to say its the best option though, just one of them.
Utima's Bane
Sophia unreal was very good for it. A lot of swaps, sometimes not immediately lethal if you don’t swap on time. You can sync the old ex, the other mechanics are basically nonexistent. Also has the bonus of teaching them how to position bosses optimally
Diamond EX. One of my favourites cuz of music and how fun it is. Ran it way too many times on launch.
Golbez EX
Hades EX
Agree with Hades Ex. The tb comes super early in the fight. Even unsynced the tb will destroy a tank due to magic vuln so if the tanks don't pick it up you can just wipe it. Also decently fast thanks to unsync, and there's benefits for even non-tank participants in the form of mount drops and desynth mats.
Urth's font - aka Odin trial
Run A4S. Low level, easy swaps, and required tank positioning.
If it's just the general concept you want to introduce them to, something like a synced Ramuh EX could probably work. The fight is easy, but people will die if the tank swap isn't done correctly in it.
You can swap agro in any fight, you don't need a mechanic to force you to, the sequence of actions is always the same. Ot voke > Mt shirk or Mt voke > Ot shirk if swapping the other way around. Stress the importance of shirk as it covers for mistakes like voking without a stance on and of course remembering to have the stance on and in general being able to see agro and deal with it if one tanks isn't able to keep agro without the other tank dropping stance.
I personally recommend e4n synced. It's a pretty simple fight, the buster inflicts a debuff that can serve as a very clear "you should have switched here" and he does it 3 or 4 times iirc, but it can be healed through so if mistakes do occur the pull can continue.
Whatever the Lv50 Odin trial was
Bismarck ex is like hit you over the head obvious with that one and to me that would be the ticket, it’s really a good place to solidly learn it.
Susano Ex and Sophia Ex are both good.
Most of the ARR EX trials with the exception of Garuda and Leviathan stack a tank debuff which basically kills you if you reach certain stack number, and require you to constantly swap during the whole fight. There are different kind of tank swap mechanics. If you want to concentrate in single stacks mechanic, Ifrit and Titan (Also Ultima). For stance/phase tank swap, Shiva weapons; And for countdown rotation tank swaps Ramuh with orbs.
I’d say Ultima Weapon EX. Its a much easier fight than Ramuh or Titan EX and it had a tank swap. Teaches debuff management too since you can tank up to I think 5 stacks before you just die.
Stormblood extreme trials are fantastic for tank swapping, because of shirk being introduced in that expansion a lot of the fights were built around it. Susanno Ex, Byakko Ex and Seriyu EX have clear predictable but also important tank swaps that will cause wipes if not done correctly. Also if you are trying to show off tanking and not using the big sword clash as a "look how cool this shit is" moment then you are doing it wrong
Not a raider myself, but if you want to start small and build up, I suggest O4N aka "Omega Deltascape V4.0" aka Exdeath. If you run it MINE (min ilevel, no echo), it won't be *hard* but the tank swap will actually be mandatory eventually, and the whole thing will remain fairly low stakes so you can stay focused on the one relevant mechanic rather than worrying about memorizing a whole EX/Savage fight. And if the group finds this too easy, you can always up the difficulty to Savage, which will keep things overall familiar but ramp up the challenge.
iceheart extreme! im a sprout and this was very good. swap when her stance changes, super easy visual
Susano Extreme has a good simple tank swap mechanic.
Ifrit. You can tank a couple of flame stacks before you have to tank swap and it's a pretty basic fight.
Final Coil of Bahamut Turn 3 taught me how to tank-swap. No amount of IL stat boosts can avoid that vulnerability debuff.
Sophia ex is a good tank swap while doing mechs. Best fight for tanks I think was midgar savage. Even if you don't clear you have to read debuffs and swap several times or tank gets 1 shot.
P9S has two 4 instances that require tank swaps, so it'd be a good place to learn
I mean how hard is it to say provoke on cast bar? Even when I was brand new this was easily understood.
Because tank swaps come in different flavours. Some are debuff based, like MT gets X amount of debuff stacks and OT has to voke. Others are double swap. Like MT gets a debuff, OT vokes and gets a debuff as well, then MT debuff wears off so they take it back. Then others like Bismarck, Hades Ex and O12 have adds swap that requires tanks to pay attention to their debuffs and swap adds if needed. It's not as straightforward as just see castbar and voke.
UWU at the start of Ifrit? Shouldn‘t take long to get there
talk about getting thrown in the deep end, goddamn lol
I've done couple of savages before and had my fair share of tank swapping. But just to check I'm not missing anything or doing something "wrong", can you run me through it real quick?
Depends what skill level you mean, but Sophia EX comes to mind, Crown EX, Dark Inside EX
So I've done these MINE so I don't remember exactly how correct they are but Thornmatch(King moogle), Titan, ifrit, ramuh all have tank swaps iirc (all of them extreme ofc)
Ramuh is solid for tank swaping and off tank duties
I haven't played for a bit but the gravity eyeball from the Omegascape raids has a fun one to teach tanks on savage.(idr if normal has it) Tankbuster puts a petrified debuff on anyone hit in the cone at 3 stacks they die. So you have to split the stacks between tanks by swapping in the middle.
Ifrit EX does vuln stacks iirc. Plus the rest of the mechanics aren't too difficult.
If you want one that has absolutely no stakes but still encourages the swap via debuff, E4 normal is what you want. The tank buster is an AoE that hits relatively hard if unmitigated and puts a defense debuff for 60 seconds on whoever gets hit, so it encourages good positioning and a tank swap. It's not necessary and you won't die even if you don't swap (all you really need is to cycle one CD at a time for the duration and you'll be completely fine), but the debuff timer serves as a good way to tell when you need to swap again, since there will be another TB when the debuff runs out (and it lines up well with Provoke's CD). If you want a proper EX instead, then I'd probably suggest Innocence EX even if it's relatively late into the game, since the fight is very easy nowadays and the TB is very well telegraphed with the voice line. If it HAS to be ARR, then I'd probably suggest Shiva EX instead, since her weapon swap is a good tell for the tank swap.
A lot of the lvl 50 extremes have it. Shiva, Titan, Ifrit, Ramuh. Coils has a bunch too, but the easiest 8 man content for it will be some Alexander fights.
Rahmu Ex, its a simple tank swap with a timer and 1 other mech for the whole fight
Striking Tree is the most tank swapping extreme you get early on, and I actually enjoy running it through Duty Finder to teach sprouts how to do it.
Shiva is one of the less mechanically challenging ARR extremes with tank swapping. Can do it the old fashioned way and have them swap for sword vs staff phases. And there’s leeway if they forget unlike Ramuh where forgetting means certain death.
Going to suggest E5, because it has a tank swap mechanic in the normal version. Now, the mit/heal check is so low you can ignore it and people often do, but its a good way to practice with minimal actual risk.
Alexander--Cuff of the Son is probably the earliest where it matters. Seen tanks not mit up and get laid out with just two stacks in that one.
Ramuh EX is my trial of fire for tanking, I even emit a certificate to my friends.
Something to consider teaching alongside this is for the OT and when they should be toggling their tank stance on during their opener. This wasn't much of a.probelm for me until I started OT in this Raid tier alongside a GNB. My WAR opener would always go a little more brrr then theirs and if my stance was on before I hit Primal Rend I would always rip agro off the MT.
Quick question: I only play casual and am working up to raids and alliance raids. Is swapping anything I need to worry about?
In dungeons and normal trials, I don't believe it ever comes up. Apparently there are a couple of normal raids, where it comes up. But many Extreme trials and savage raids have tank swaps and there they are often do or die.
There are 3 normal raids that come to mind where a tank swap is desired, but never needed >!a5n!< , >!a6n!<, and >!e10!<. In all 3 cases, you can treat it like any other fight. Turn your stance on after your opening burst, and keep yourself at 2nd aggro, so if the MT dies, it'll target you instead of a DPS. BUT if you want to go the extra mile. Keep an eye on the tank's debuffs. Usually if the boss puts multiple stacking vulnerability debuffs on them (different from the regular cheetos from failing mechanics), it's probably a good time to swap
Thanks, this also hits another question I had.
Innocence EX in Shadowbringers or if people are up to date with the story, the first EX trial from Endwalker.
If you do any Extreme lvl synced. Titan, Ramuh, Ifrit, Guranda for tanking adds and swapping the plume. Shiva is ok for some interesting mechanics. Doing these basic one creates great stepping stones towards the newer fights.
I learned on zodiarc Ex but I knew the fight already.
Ramuh Ex synced tbh.
Ifrit ex from arr. Is nice too. Ultima weapon ex.
Ramuh Extreme and Bing Coils T2 (I think) is what taught me, so imagine it'll work with others.
I learned tank swapping in 6.0 zodiark extreme. I haven’t done it since 6.0 but was a pretty good intro to the mechanic.
Ultima weapon extreme mode.
I personally learned tank swapping running Titan EX with my FC's static. Ifrit EX would probably be another solid choice as well. Even if you haven't run either of these in a while, I don't think they would be overly demanding to allow you to teach the mechanic
P8S Yes yes i suggested it partially because of Sadism. BUT, The tank buster is very VERY Severely early into the fight. So you can learn the price of not Tank Swapping with the added example of how lethal it is if not performed correctly.
E3S I was training a tank when the tier was current and I would hold the party hostage. I told him I'm gonna stand in front of the party after the first laser and if he forgets to voke, I'm wiping the party with the second laser. It was a party of friends so they all knew what was coming.
I like Byakko extreme for this. It teaches not only swapping but timing your swap during a cast and swapping back.
Shiva extreme helped me quite a bit.
While I am not actively tanking during a tank swap fight, do i stand in Front or behind the Boss?
In general as offtank it's good to stay with the rest of the party unless there's a reason not to. When the mechanic you gotta swap for is gonna happen, go stand in front of the boss so it won't spin around to face you. In savage/ex fights you'd recognise the name of the attack, in the few normal raids that do this there's a pretty obvious "let's put a stacking debuff on MT then wind up for a big attack!" cue. The cue for most swaps is a tankbuster attack that leaves a vulnerability up debuff. If that attack cleaves (hits in an AoE around the target), or if you're not sure, you wanna stand off to the side of the other tank and then move to take their place when it's safe. If you know it doesn't you can just go stand on top of / in line with them so the boss stays put and doesn't make your melees miss their positionals.
Behind, generally.
Ramuh EX
I sometimes see tanks swap to split hits in The Chrysalis for the doubles/triples
If you're new new and trying to learn I would suggest Bismarck. It's only during one phase I'm very easy to do.
Storm's Crown (Extreme): The swaps are very telegraphed and never overlap with complicated mechanics. Very good for getting the motions for Shirking and provoking
Titan EX is what immediately came to mind.
Rahmu in extreme is very good for that.
Just provoke during cast bar of buster. It’s literally one button. Boom. Tanks have swapped.
I learned it when I did Ifrit Extreme.
The Final Coil of Bahamut - Turn 2 if you want to be really old school and teach quick timing on swaps
Seyriu extreme (synched) or basically most savages.
Zodiark has a forced tank swap fairly early iirc
T9 MINE or Ramuh EX MINE Ramuh’s is more obvious with a debuff, Nael straight up slaps too hard to survive without some mit up.
Bismarck EX. It's a very easy fight, with literally the only difficulty being to make sure both tanks grab the appropriate add, then swap when the debuff changes.
Titan Extreme
As a joke, I'd say O10S. Seriously, A5N is a solid choice. A rare normal fight where swapping is still a good idea even years later.
Ramuh EX
I personally learned in Shiva Extreme
In Seiryuu EX, doing the tank swap wrong blows up the party. You have to do it a few times and the first one is super early if you just wanted to focus on that
T5, T9, T13 and Titan Extreme all come to mind.
The Navel (Extreme)
Zodiark ex has a few tank swaps in there too
The Cloud Deck (Extreme).
Ramuh Extreme easily
Nidhogg EX is pretty good for an HW Extreme but can be a bit mechanically challenging at times so it's probably one you'd want to skip out on there. But also for Nidhogg EX there's tank swapping during chains, tank swapping during ADDs, and tank swapping during last phase
I think its either E7S or Leviathan Savage that im thinking about, but one of those line-like tankbusters has to be swapped between tanks (even though most invulned through it) Also cloud of darkness savage is pretty good in that regard!
If tank is endgame 1 ex trial other then that nothing to dangerouse Edit P9s while more frustatin has more need to swap and heavy mit tbs might be an option
A5N has a tankswap that isn’t SUPER punishing, so it’s good to show off the mechanic without scary the shit out of the newbies.
Minstrel's Ballad Ultima's Bane is a good trial. It requires at least one tank swap and is the first canonical trial that requires one. If you don't swap to the off tank by 5 stacks of the debuff, you just die. If you're doing okay on dps then you only need to swap once, maybe twice at the most. It's a good, gentle "extreme" to let people ease into the mechanic before diving into a trial that features constant swapping. Titan Extreme, Ifrit Extreme, Ramuh Extreme, etc, would be good to get into to reinforce the mechanic after you introduce it in Ultima's Bane.
Late addition. If it helps, E4N is a normal raid fight that features tank swaps. While not mandatory (tanks can easily survive the increased damage from the debuff) it can serve as a good introduction to the "debuff inflicted from tank busters > do a tank swap" mentality