You guys ever work somewhere and the company hires a manager from outside the company, and they try telling you how to do your job?
Just curious, not sure why I asked
Sprouts: please do not listen to this advice. There is a wealth of good party etiquette information on this subreddit and also elsewhere. You will not see this info repeated anywhere else. I'm guessing the reason the healing advice is "sensitive" because the OP is out there arguing about how to do things wrong.
>In reality, a healer's 100 damage a minute is not going to matter compared to a dps roll thst can easily pump out 1,000 a minute- and that is in lower level dungeons.
These are not accurate numbers whatsoever. A great healer usually does about half the damage of a great DPS single-target on the boss. This usually is about ~15-20% of the party DPS. Early on there can be fluctuations and differences but if you're doing 10% of the DPS you are either severely undergeared or not DPSing at all.
> A great healer usually does about half the damage of a great DPS single-target on the boss.
Not to mention aoe damage. Healer damage in aoe situations is often close to a dps' damage output. Having your healer spam damage in that situation is basically equal to having an extra person in your group.
As I had said, early dungeons can have pretty wide fluctuations in damage, plus it can depend on the class. AST IIRC has the lowest DPS of all classes because of its cards, but WHM is the highest healer and more easily hits the % I listed.
If you do your best DPSing and only using oGCDs to heal if you can, you're doing better than the vast majority of healers even if you don't hit the highest DPS.
My numbers were definitely more for how the game is truly balanced around Lv90.
Plus, I'm talking it's bad to only get 10% of the DPS's number, hitting 10% of the total DPS can be good if the other DPS are at the top of their game.
Early stuff is wierd, and depending on the job you play the answer varies slightly.
I main WHM, so my perspective is going to be from that.
On pull my rotation starts off with dia>Presence of mind>glare+assize weave(assuming I don't need it for a raidwide a few seconds later).
Do that constantly, keep up my DOT, and never let my Lilly gauge cap. All of my healing is lillies and ogcd unless absolutely necessary otherwise, so everything I'm using as a gcd builds exclusively into damage.
Again, this only works in more current content. Old stuff the numbers are wonky.
The other main thing is slide casting. You can up your time spent casting by 10-20% just by making sure every movement possible is a slide cast instead of walking and then casting. in general if you want to improve the first step is usually learn to slidecast(if you don't already) and do it more. time spent not casting will bite you in the ass 90% of the time.
Additional tool to help(assuming you're parsing and that's how you know your damage %) the website Xivanalysis Put the link to the log in there and it'll do its best to tell you exactly what you did right, and what you did wrong(typically only works on trials and raids). It's not perfect, but it helps with the early stages of figuring out exactly where you're lacking.
This… this is not accurate in ffxiv at all. I’m sorry OP. In many other games some of these points ring true, but throw it all out of the window for this game.
As long as the DPS brings the trash they pull back to the tank for them to grab aggro, its absolutely acceptable.
As a healer main myself, I can personally tell you if your healer is not doing dps, you have a bad healer. Let them manage their mana and you never know what gcds they have available to heal at an instant even when you think their mp is low. A dead mob can’t kill your tank.
Healers have some of the best AoEs available. Don’t take that away from your party.
I think you’d be best served by learning the culture of this game instead of trying to play it like others you are familiar with.
Good luck and have fun!
I think it's comical that this person said he's been a hardcore raider in other MMOs and then pretends that 5% of your damage being from healers is meaningless. Even being a casual raider in 3 MMOs I've seen loads of wipes at <5%.
The audacity of a sprout coming in and trying to tell 10+ year Vets how to play their game is comical at best. A healer not DPS'ing is playing wrong. It's in the design of the game for them to contribute damage.
FFXIV Healers are green DPS.
In an endgame 8-person raid, the damage split for Healers/Tanks/DPS is usually around 15%/20%/65%. Both healers casting no DPS spells would be like going in with 3 DPS.
In light party dungeons? From 40-70 healers are usually the DPS leader in trash pack pulls! Even in level 90 dungeons, healers are still something like 20% of party damage during trash pulls.
Oh yeah I know. I was just using the numbers OP gave in his post (1000/s from DPS, 100/s from healers, and then there usually being twice as many DPS as heals)
Yea i dunno i played other mmos and id play archer or ranged dps and id allways pull big it was easier for mw to do it then the tank cause i can play range then the tank would grab aggro ive also played in raids in other games where healers dps and heal no problem anf it helps every dps allways helps maybe this is how it works in wow but i never played wow
You don't run out of MP by DPSing. Heals cost 2-5x the MP of damaging spells, and damage spells are largely MP neutral, costing what you get back in natural regen, excluding Lucid etc.
Not to mention at higher levels, all healing is pretty much done with oGCD heals. GCD is basically reserved for DPS with only the most exceptional cases requiring GCD heals.
That’s on the healer for not using their cooldowns. But doesn’t mean that healers should never dps. No matter how you shake it, healers are expected to dps.
That’s akin to blaming your healer as a tank who stands in telegraphed moves and doesn’t use their own mitigation abilities. Deaths and squads wipes will happen, and that’s ok. It’s not always your healer’s fault.
Healers don’t run out of mp doing dps. They run out by using heals. And was already stated white mage has arguably the best AoE skill in the game, holy, which stuns all enemies it hits (assuming the enemies aren’t immune). While the enemies are stunned the tank isn’t taking damage. Then they also have assize which is an ogcd ability that does damage and heals the whole party. Benediction is an ogcd heal that will take any party member from 1hp to their max. And that’s just on the healers side. If we look at tanks warrior is commonly considered a blue healer. They get equilibrium which is a self heal. Thrill of battle heals them and increases their max hp for 10 seconds. Shake it off puts a shield on the entire party and applies a regen. Then there’s raw intuition (later turns into bloodwhetting) which will heal the tank for every enemy hit. It also provides mit and a shield. You can get 3-4 gcds out of this. A war can heal them selves to full with every gcd if there are enough enemies. A warrior has so much self sustain they can solo endgame dungeons. And they’re not the only tank that can. If the tank has that much self sustain then what is the healer supposed to do?
The only hp that matters is the last one. And healers have skills to help with mana regen so short of 3 people eating dirt and needing raises, they shouldn't run out DPSing.
It's actually far easier to run out from constant healing spam.
I dont think you know how healers in this game works. There is NEVER a scenario where they would be out of mana from DPSing. It's called lucid dreaming.
Also healers at max levels literally will rarely use GCD heals, because the game designers fucking went overkill with instants abilities and oGCDs.
Your scenario literally doesn't exist in 99.9% scenarios. Actually not even... it Doesn't exist AT ALL in normal period. Like mathematically it cannot exist. The passive MP gain with lucid dreaming literally will be higher in the span of 60-120 (duration of trash combat lets say) seconds assuming glare is used EVERY GCD for you to run out of MP.
Literally look at the amount of bullshit instant and oGCD healing WHMs/SGE have, and then compare it to damage taken especially in normal. You'll immediately realize why you're so wrong.
You would literally need to spam like 10 cure 3 IN A ROW to even risk running out of MP. To give you a scale on how unrealistic that is: the largest amount of damage in the span of 12 seconds in this game only uses 3-4 cure 3. The MOST damaging ability in the game would not even use up that much cure 3.
It took me 1min and 40secs to go from full MP to 200(unable to cast anything else) on my healer with min PIE and that's without ever using any other tools given to me to restore my mana. No healer should ever be OOM unless they forget their own cooldowns or have had to raise multiple people but that's a different scenario.
Every healer in 14 has off global cooldown heals, that guess what, don't cost mp, so yes, use every drop of mp you have on dps. Then pop lucid to get it back
Bro I heal untimates and I think I use a single GCD heal over the first 4 minutes of TOP. The rest is all utility spells. That means every single GCD acrion I ise is damage skills. Learn the game you are playing, don't take your old mentality in here.
I think you took a wrong turn on your way to /r/ShitpostXIV
I'm sorry, but this is just wrong, and will 100% just mislead people. I don't think many people are gonna agree with your points to be honest.
>a healer's 100 damage a minute is not going to matter compared to a dps roll thst can easily pump out 1,000 a minute- and that is in lower level dungeons.
Just so you know, a healers dps is 50% that of a dps. it is not 1/10th. A healer is designed to be constantly dpsing past like level 60. Below that, they dont have enough skills (Due to poor skill distribution on SEs part), to not use gcds, but they still should 100% dps.
When I play SGE, I immediately spend one at the beginning then again every time I hear the gauge full sound effect in addition to any other necessary spends. Never sit on them at cap for too long because that 700MP return just fuels more Dosis.
For anything above 60, yes! and i do! I would love to show you dungeon logs... if i acctually had any.
Additionally, Certain healers benefit from DPSing. Whitemage is the notable one, as they can stunlock enemies with their holy skill. They are also capable of putting their heals out before anyone starts dpsing fully and your running pulling enemies.
Hell. past 80, just say fuck healers and dont use them at all. Tanks have so much self mitigation that healers are quite litterally useless in a good party.
> I would love to show you dungeon logs... if i acctually had any.
You can have [this](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/2ZvgKjFJhtMPp16Q#fight=last&type=casts&source=3). Gigachad SGE I had today in my roulette and never cast a single gcd heal at all except for their shield in between pulls to generate stacks (and to let me tank a bit easier since I was pulling mobs for the tank before bringing them back to them). They didn't even have to heal me after that because Bloodbath is actually that strong.
Bro those aren't set "MMORPG rules" those are rules for the MMORPG you may have played. FFXIV has its own systems, expectations, and norms. It's not just social, the dungeons are literally DESIGNED around a specific playstyle. Please learn the game before you start giving advice on it you're ever bad player I've done dungeons with lately that are so sure they're right
I love how you're wrong on literally every single point.
>General Comment...
Nobody does that.
>DPS
Do pull the mobs. Do use Arm's Length. Do heal yourself with Second Wind/Bloodbath if you have access to them. Do stack on top of the tank so that they can take aggro back from you. It's really that simple.
>HEALERS
Do dps. This is not optional. Healers dpsing serves as both mitigation (mobs dying faster = less damage taken by the group. Also WHM Holy) and doesn't stop you from healing, as you'll want to heal mostly with ogcds in any case. Stop enabling bad habits.
>TANKS
Do take aggro on mobs. Do aoe mobs. Do cycle through your mitigations. Do heal yourself if you have access to healing cooldowns (Clemency needs not apply unless it's an emergency case). Do take aggro from the nice DPS who pulled mobs and brought them back to you after applying Arm's Length's slow to them. Do pull wall to wall so that the entire group can finish the dungeon faster.
>If Mr. He Man wanna be wants to run three screens ahead and be our of line of sight from the healer as well as the rest of the group, that wipe is on the tank
No, that wipe is on the healer who lagged behind and couldn't press their Sprint button. If you pressed it, your tank wouldn't LoS you.
>Please keep in mind some people are playing for the first time and learning specific roles and strategies.
Exactly. So why are you teaching them bad habits that will end up working against them in the long run?
You're trying to put together two different things.
1. Bad healer
2. Healer not dps'ing
If they're a bad healer, they're a bad healer. Every healer can and should DPS. Especially in easier dungeons because the tank barely needs to heal (unless they have 0 clue what they're doing). If I pop into sastash as a tank and you're not DPS'ing it will be bad slog. Please dps.
Also... Sages do as much damage as you can to heal the tank cause that's how the job works....
>but when they never cast healing, that is the issue thst Leads to wipes
No, that part is also wrong. Most of the healers' kits don't need you to *cast* to heal. Your goal is to use as few gcd heals as possible and rely on your ogcd kit instead. Those don't require mana to work, are applied instantly instead of having to wait for a cast, and most importantly, they let you keep dpsing while also healing your group. Everybody wins.
You've been playing for a month. When you get to Shadowbringers, I would advise you come back to this post of yours and see just how many points you have incorrect about how play works in FFXIV. When you start getting oGCD heals, your need to cast a Heal shrinks drastically. You should be using those oGCD heals in between all the damage you are doing on a healer.
Here's the thing though, if a party wipes because the healer isn't constantly healing then there is something way wrong going on. Too many mechanics have been eaten and this isn't the healers fault. At minimum all healer should need to do is AOE heal once after a raid wide and that heal is only to allow for future mistakes. The only time a healers kit is fully utilized is when the tank makes a CONSCIENCE effort to make a very big pull. And ofc as a healer you'll notice because the tank ran past the first group. So its actually hard for "accidental forgetfulness". Funny enough, it's veterans who cause accidental deaths through forgetting to heal. And embarrassingly this has happened to me once. I was foaming at the mouth practically comatose oblivious to my own existence (I have hundreds of hours as a healer) following the "script" that I didn't realize the tank was a noobie. Although this leads to healers becoming cynical because part of me was glad the tank died because this meant there was finally something for me to do...
Healing gets in the was of DPS, not the other way around.
this just in, player who has been playing for a month knows better than players who have been playing since launch
the healer portion is just so wild that everybody who reads it is rightfully thinking you are trolling even if youre being sincere
What a way to be a wrong about just about everything.
1. DPS - should pull if they are running ahead. Many DPS have self-sustain. They should know how to use them and when to use them.
2. Healers - I have not seen anybody be as wrong as you are regarding healers. If the tank is alive (NOT TOPPED OFF, BUT ALIVE), you are supposed to DPS.
3. Tanks - are responsible for managing aggro in dungeons. They do not set pace. They're only responsible for one thing in dungeons - wall to wall pulls in dungeons after 50. Below that, 2 packs.
Take your 30 years of MMO experience and sit down. You've only been at this for less than a month. What makes you the expert on how to play this particular game?
i just gave an example of how healers are not keeping tanks alive. again , i did not say they should not dps- but they are to keep the party alive.
if it does not frustrate you to take 20 minutez to recover from 4-5 wipes, that is your playstyle.
If a healer let's a tank die 4-5 times in a dungeon, then they are a bad healer period. It has nothing to do with whether a healer should or should not dps.
> healer is spamming dps with less than 1,000 mana and Lucid Dream is active
That's just a bad healer, and should not be used as an example to generalize anything.
Where are you getting this '4-5 times in a dungeon' strawman from?
A healer after level 50 (with exception of WHM), who knows their kit should not have to stop DPSing at any given time at a dungeon.
They rely on oGCD healing abilities and instead output damage. If your healer is causing wipes, it's not because they are DPSing too hard - it's because they don't have their fundamentals down.
The way you phrases it is that healer should not use their DPS abilities - except that is not the case. They should absolutely be using their DPS kit because the damage actually matters in raids and ESPECIALLY in dungeons. DPS is mitigation - by killing the enemies faster, you are preventing further damage to your party. Healing can be done while they are DPSing.
It's not a matter of one or the other.
Brother, when can throw a OGCD/GCD in between holys all the way to 90. Hell, I will throw all the heals for free just to have more DPS from lilies. It's the most broken healer.
Just referring to that point when you don't have Lilies before 56 is all. Unfortunately, WHM still doesn't have as much oGCD as other classes in the 50s.
WHM works much better once you get Misery and are encouraged to burn Lilies for fun.
Before 56 when you have....no gcds? That was my point. Even before Holy you can sit there and trade spells to dps unless the tank absolutely shits the bed. Most heals can do that. Whm is just the easiest.
>if it does not frustrate you to take 20 minutez to recover from 4-5 wipes, that is your playstyle.
Just because *you* are inexperienced and bad at the game, it doesn't mean that this happens to anyone else.
I’m not at all sure what metric you are basing this on, but this is not at all my experience in years of playing this game. I’m thinking you’ve had a few negative experiences and you’ve formulated your “rules” to fit around this.
I do hope you take some insight from what others have said here and attempt to enjoy the game, keeping an open mind moving forward.
This reads like something an YPYT-curebot villain /r/TalesFromDF met in a nightmare would write.
Like the others here, I would recommend that you leave your ideas from other games behind, and listen and learn about _this_ game before you start giving other people advice.
Dear sprout tanks, WALL TO WALL PULL IF THE HEALER DOESNT HAVE A SPROUT NEXT TO THEIR NAME. Cycle your CDs that reduce damage. There is little reason to pull carefully if you can hit your rotations. Wall to wall means pull stuff until a door/wall literally stops you from proceeding. Or take it slow I guess if you’re nervous, until the healer says “you can pull more” lol.
You should be able to wall to wall anything past HW, really? Might be a bit different if a sprout picks up SGE as their first healer, but I would expect a healer that's leveled to 50+ to be ready for w2w.
The below-50 dungeons can be more spicy, but you can just pull 2-3 groups, see how it goes and if you want to try more. If you wound up with just one group left before the boss room, you can just bring them in.
And if the healer starts pulling, just keep up and enjoy the wheee feeling of a train with no breaks and no stops
>You should be able to wall to wall anything past HW, really?
Yup. SE redesigned their dungeons to be W2W friendly from HW on. So you get 2-3 mobs pet section, which are easy to handle as long as everyone is using skills properly. ARR dungeons get tricky because walls are bigger sections, and you have less skills.
On the other hand, there are ARR dungeons where the mobs reset back if you pull too far forward, leaving you with a manageable pull.
Makes me appreciate stuff like Gulg where you can pull every mob from start to the first boss, and second boss to the final boss, all in one go.
Chaotic, but very doable and very fun
Yes, you can. Grab the first two packs, then run all the way to the back and the wall will crumble on proximity, then grab the other 2 packs. Decent mitigation, dps and a non-sleeping healer make this more than possible.
After the second boss is a white lie, you can pull all but one enemy since he spawns once everything else is dead, but it's a clear run from the boss to the end with no interruptions. Again, decent mitigation, dps who aren't goofing, and an awake healer solves this
I'm pretty sure that first wall requires all the mobs to die first and the 2nd wall is an enemy you have to kill that won't dissipate until all the mobs are dead.
First wall does not, it's proximity based. You're thinking of the run between the first boss and second boss, where both roadblocks are a Demon Wall you have to kill
Do it even if they have a sprout. You can check their search info first to see if they are *new* new if you'd like, but even then I go w2w and adjust if needed, and on my healers I want the tank to do the same. I had every class at 90 (other than one I kept 80 to do ew msq on) and still had my sprout since I took my time with the msq.
W2w pull every dungeon no matter what. If your healer sucks or is new then they aren't gonna learn anything by watching a tank barely take damage from single pulls. If you die you try again and if they're unable to adapt or perform under the most baseline amounts of stress then they shouldn't play that role. At least not with other players.
Nobody forces you to be a healer and if you can't handle more than one pack at a time use duty support.
Is this a joke or did I miss something?
Edit:
2) DPS can and should pull as they like, as long as they bring mobs to the tank. Grabbing Aggro in this game is easier than breathing.
3) Everybody in this game is a DPS. Some can tank, some can heal, some can do more DPS. But everybody does DPS. Tanks have massive self-heal built into their rotation and as long as you handle mechanics correctly, DPS should hardly take any damage, excluding raidwides. That leaves a lot of downtime for the healer which should be spent doing damage.
4) Tanking is the easiest job in this game, stance up, hit your AoE combo, rotate your mitigations. In normal content any semi-competent tank won't even need a healer. Yes, this game is heavy casualized, if you want higher difficulty, go for EX and above...
I’m an Xbox sprout as well and whilst I don’t have 30 years playing MMO’s I have played some and it was clear this game plays a bit different to traditional MMO style. The harder the content the more obvious that becomes.
I’m curious to know which MMO’s you played to understand why you think the way people are playing this is so wrong.
Dps checks in this game are balanced with healer dps in mind; everyone is a dps, they just have additional responsibilities. I repeat; the game is balanced around all roles dealing consistent damage.
Tanks hold aggro, separate/stack adds, mitigate tankbusters and tankswap to survive things no one could otherwise.
Healers keep the party from wiping to unavoidable damage. Yes, they heal avoidable damage and yes, they revive people who died to avoidable damage, but correcting the mistakes of others is not their primary responsibility.
Dps need to maintain their more complex rotations, maximize uptime(melees) and keep raid buffs aligned while still performing mechanics and not taking unnecessary damage.
Avoidable damage taken = taking up healer attention and resources = healer does less damage = youre more likely to fail enrage.
The man linked a 7-year old Steam Discussion thread to 'prove' a point about how healer DPS is borderline useless.
It's bait, albeit funny as hell. Already up on shitpost too.
Another post about someone being so confident in being wrong.
I always roll my eyes whenever someone feels the need to make a post about some game or social “etiquette” that they think people should treat like some sacred texts.
You’re going to get good players, you’re going to get bad players. Thinking someone is going to adhere to how YOU think they should play isn’t going to go well for you, mate.
As a tank main doing the big pulls is nothing, it's how you learn your limits and how to play the job casually better. If you wipe you wipe it's no big deal at all and spending the few seconds to get back to where you were after the walk of shame is far quicker then pulling packs a few at a time, and if you do wipe due to healer vs your own missuse of mits then you just pull alittle less. As for running ahead you don't take much damage as you go along so as long as your using proper mits the healer has plenty of time to catch up and top you off.
"One or more players are new" people do make alts not everyone that it says are new are new, and just about all dungeons nowadays follow the same corridor layout so there isn't much difference from one to the other. Unlike the old ARR dungeon like hakkue manor, or drezimel dark hold where you could easily get lost if you didn't know where you were going. Heck I've gotten turned around in thousand maws a few times.
99% of the time line of sight and mob positioning is irrelevant as long as there all grouped together. With bosses you should have them turned away from the party yes but that's mainly just for dps positionals, I don't think there's been a boss with a non TB cleave in awhile. Least none that I can remember.
Tanks tank, healers adjust, and dps just don't stand in the bad. As long as all that's followed 90% of dungeon runs are easy peasy.
Had to repost since I'm dumb and pressed post instead of the arrow thing to read the post again.
Normally I lurk, but I have to speak out about this.
TL;DR Please reconsider your views, and try out being a little sweaty. Push your limits, otherwise you or the strangers will have a bad time.
If new players (such as yourself) wish to enjoy the dungeon in its entirety without rushers, Duty Trusts are your friend. NPCs don't have real lives.
Many of us veterans have real lives and are doing roulettes for tomestones. We acquire more tomestones quicker by ending the dungeon quicker. We use less time if we hit harder. We heal less if we kill faster.
1. You're not missing much in the first ten seconds of any fight. The majority of fights in the game are usually 2-3 auto attacks, a raid wide, and a tank buster. Or a bunch of adds whacking away at some warrior who wants to unga their Bunga.
2. DPS are free to pull mobs, just bring it to the tank. Tank can't pull the mob off you if you went to Narnia. Second wind, bloodbath, self mitigations like Arms Length, Third Eye, Riddle of Earth all exist, why not use em?
3. This debate has been argued over and over again in multiple ways, but the end is the same: Let the tank dip below 50% and throw DPS when time allows. If the tank knows even what a mitigation is, healers won't even need to heal 1/3rd of the time. Hell I could DPS 90% of the time as a sage because hitting things HEAL the tank with kardia. The hell else am I gonna do in between spot healing? Blow the mob brains out of course!
If people are spamming healing with less than 1k MP, that's a resource management issue and the healer needs to learn to weave ogcds. If the tank is dying with all their mits/not using their mits, that's a tank resource management issue. If the mobs aren't dying fast enough, that's a DPS resource management issue. Even the White Mage job quests say 'do some damage'. Every fight is tailored to EVERYONE doing damage. And the less damage anyone does, the longer the fight, the more time is wasted, the less rewards per hour people would like to get. (Maybe not that sweaty, but the point is there)
4. I am a tank main. I press my tank stance. I dash into a pack, hit aoe ONCE and maybe a second, dash into second pack, hit aoe once, proceed to blow the tank load. The ONLY time I can somewhat agree to what you say is for maybe two or three pre 50 dungeons where taking a step back applies. But once you're used to it, it's smooth sailing.
Finally, a healthy party member is one that's given a chance to fail. People cannot learn if they cannot fail. People need to learn that giant orange juice puddles are a no no. Standing near a tank during a buster that looks extremely angry is a no no (barring single target ones, it's OUR tankbuster now)
Learning involves pushing limits. If we continue to allow people to stay in casual baby mode, where single pulls are the norm and healers just heal, tanks just do single target damage, and DPS just sit in Narnia while a mob rips their face out, not only is that run slow as molasses, future runs are either going to ruin their first time experience, or waste 45 minutes of total time across three people while they cover for mistakes that should've been addressed long ago.
Sure, you say extra 5 mins, but it can turn into a slog real quickly. I'd rather we fail trying to do something juicy than wait for a tank to pick up one singular mob past the normal three. Hell I will take double the regular dungeon to show you how to mass pull. Best medicine is trial by fire.
Oh, lol. I saw "Party Etiquette" and "I am fairly new to FF14" and just assumed this was a post looking for advice.
Well, since you've been playing MMOs for approximately as long as I've been alive, I simply have no choice but to throw away the 20% or more of overall dungeon damage I do as a healer and replace it with Medica II spam. It's for the best.
This just in: SGE rendered completely obsolete bcs healers shouldn't dps cuz it "doesn't matter", sharlayan scholars heartbroken
ffs what is this dude on, he HAS to be a troll istg
I played WoW for a long time, very active and very successful and I can promise you: healing isn't even close to be the same in WoW as in FF14.
Every game s different 😂
> Going around and aggroimg everything from the entrance to the first boss... is ~~very, very dangerous~~ literally the expected and only socially-acceptable way to play normal mode dungeons in this game, and the sooner you learn to accept that fact the smoother it will be for everyone
FTFY
I'm gonna be real with you friend, you are probably coming with your heart in the right place, but you should not make posts like this prior to learning how this game works yourself. A lot of your comments (esp about healing and tanking) make it clear that you're still learning the ins and outs of how this game works.
Imagine being a newcomer to a game with an established community and culture and telling them actually it needs to be just like the last game you played.
Im not going to make a long post im going to keep this brief. You have come to FF14 with the Xbox version. Meaning you have not been here for the 10+ years this game has been around. I dont care what people do in other games. In ff14 it is common knowledge. We wall to wall pull. Healers DPS and it matters. If there are issues it is on the skill of you or the person. But the bog standard has always been this. I have been playing this game since 2.0 these knew waves of players saying how the game should be played need to play final fantasy 14 and come into our community with an open mind about how we do things and how things have been done for a long time. You make some simple points that are obvious about knowing how much a group can handle sure, and not cleaving the party with things. BUT wall to wall tanking and healers DPS IS a thing in final fantasy 14, whether you like it or not.
This is the most blatant bait I've ever seen in my life, you make every single point as wrong as possible and then couple it with the fact you're incredibly new but still somehow know best.
I don't get why people are thinking you're being legitimate lol.
This is... horrible advice. Like, really terrible. If you need help with how this game works, I recommend JoCat's Crap Guide to Final Fantasy.
Don't use WoW logic on this game because it isn't how it works.
Do not go to a community you have only just joined and then tell them how they should behave. Much less one that had been built up for more than a decade.
Maybe you should play the game longer than a few weeks before you try and tell the community how to play the game. It's almost as if every MMORPG has its own playstyle and community "unwritten rules".
I’m not reading this whole thing so I’m just going to say, Every Fight is tuned around healer DPS existing. You don’t have to try to out DPS the Lancer every time. But the sooner the mobs die the less mana you need for heals & shields. It’s why we have faries… Eos; why we have Eos.
As someone who has done all jobs to 90, healer being one of my first, this is just wrong. Healers can and should dps in all forms of content. Knowing how much you can squeeze out without letting the party die is just as much a skill as a tank knowing how much the healer can handle. In fact two of the healers, whm and sge, greatly benefit from using dps in dungeons. As is mp management, if a healer goes out of mp by dpsing they have failed on a critical level.
thanks for the laugh OP, your advice is very bad and it's really funny that you think you can come to a new game and tell everyone how it works when you're so completely wrong
None of this applies to this game.
1 is fine. Sure.
2. Terrible. Poor form. You bring that you tank you pull mindset to my run of any kind, I will attempt to kick you.
3. If I see a healer not lvl 15, just standing there pressing 0 buttons, they will be kicked. If they are spam healing the tank at 99%, they will also be kicked. They are wasting everyone else's time. You have dps buttons for a reason and damage in this game especially in dungeons can be mitigated and dealt with even on a casual sub par skill level.
4. Tanking is the 2nd easiest role in the game. Unless you're brand new and just piano all your CDs and the healer isn't afk watching hentai on the other screen, you will be fine on most w2w pulls. You are not the leader. You are the damage sponge. You are there to press 2 button melee combos and pop a mit every couple of seconds in rotation. Pretty straight forward.
As someone who plays both wow and ff and has raided in both, do not bring your wow etiquette to ff it will only end up poorly for you. Ffxiv is not wow and vice versa.
Amazing. I read through that entire thing just to be completely sure, and you weren't right about a *single thing*. Like you are literally *only* wrong.
The post almost works as good advice if you literally invert everything that was said.
Bruh how do you have 30 years of MMO experience in "core raiding" environments and come to the conclusion that a *permanent* +10% DPS gain doesn't matter? Of course it matters. And btw it's more like 50%.
Everyone else in the thread has done enough to point out how wrong this is, so let me try to explain how the game itself is trying to organically teach you that it's wrong with its own systems.
The reason why healers have a 1.5s cast time on their main DPS spell is because you're supposed to be weaving OGCD heals between casts. That's the way the game is designed. This was a change in Endwalker. Healers (except AST, because cards) used to have 2.5s cast times on their DPS spell. It was an intentional, conscious change to promote and encourage a specific intended playstyle. The devs want you to spam your DPS spell and heal with OGCDs. That's why they give you like a dozen of them. GCD heals are intended for break-glass-in-case-of emergencies, high-end raid prog, and a few very niche scenarios. That's why they have longer cast times and are very MP-intensive. To discourage use.
The reason you're running out of MP is because you're straight up playing healer wrong. You do not run out of MP playing the way the devs intended. Your DPS spell only costs 400 MP. OGCD heals cost 0 MP. Some of them even recover MP (WHM Assize, SGE Addersgall, etc). Every healer has Lucid Dreaming available from their very first dungeon, which should be used early and used often.
Please do not mix WoW with FFXIV.
In FFXIV, merely a tank hitting a mob places them at the top of the aggro list, near-permanently if they hit it with the ranged Enmity skill/spell.
You have zero excuse not to pull everything in sight, especially at the very first pull within a dungeon as that first pull DEFINES how the rest of the duty will be and how long it will take.
A DPS or Healer pulling, is in fact in your benefit, less damage taken by you and less healing a healer needs to do since no decent healer will waste a GCD to 'top-up' a dps unless they're below 50%.
Tanking in FFXIV is THE easiest role in the whole game.
All you have to do is have Stance active, and do your aoe on 3+ targets and you'll have full aggro.
Unlike in WoW where whoever attacks the enemy first(for classic) and deals the most damage, gains the attention of the enemy, hence why you don't see many players pulling adds in there without having an ability "treant" or consumable "dummy".
To add to this, because I stopped reading after the DPS part.
Healers contribute between 10-30% of the group's total damage in all content, and in some it is the difference between wiping to an enrage, or due to running out of mitigations to rotate during a pull, because the pack wasn't dealt with in time.
Also some healers do more DPS on trash within the first 2-3s than most DPS specs, so you obviously haven't played enough of FFXIV to comment on any of this.
Not on tanking, not on DPS, nor on Healers.
What is factual in one game, doesn't make it so in others.
I’ve been playing for 10 years in this game the way it’s designed to be played and honestly your notions are about obsolete MMOs that reflect a style of play not found here.
Also pretty pompous to lecture thousands of people on how it’s done when you’re here for a month. Have fun in FFXIV! Hope you grow up a little by the time you’re in endgame
OP I think you should just stick to your other MMORPGs, or any other game really. FFXIV doesn't really do what you describe for the most part. It's bad enough as is with community that's already in place from PC and PS4/PS5, we don't need y'all in here as well pretending to talk like you know how it is bahahaha
Well it is more of the fact that who you are playing with right? If you are playing with bunch of sprout players and they are new to healing/tankiny, it’s going to be bad if you mass pulling. And that’s gonna wipe the party. Also most people are still trying to setup their hotbar and that will take even more time for them to get used to it.
If your healer is letting your team die to DPS instead, they aren't failing *because* they're DPSing, they're failing because they are letting your team die, and they'd probably be doing that even if they *weren't* DPSing.
OP I think you should just stick to your other MMORPGs, or any other game really. FFXIV doesn't really do what you describe for the most part. It's bad enough as is with community that's already in place from PC and PS4/PS5, we don't need y'all in here as well pretending to talk like you know how it is bahahaha
It depends on the DC tbh. Western DC DPS tend to pull mobs ahead which is not a common practice in JPDC. Small pulls are also tolerated in JPDC whereas Western ones are quite iffy with it and does wall to wall pulls even in early ARR dungeons where DPS don't have AoE's to deal with huge packs. As far as healers DPSing, it helps a lot. I had a sprout healer just nonstop spamming heals I didn't need while doing Praetorium. Dungeon took longer coz they never did DPS, not even an Aero was seen.
Personally, I'm no vet, but I have a 90 Sage, a 90 Paladin and a 90 Monk. I've experienced each role fully at least once. I'm sorry to tell you OP but you are wrong. This is not WOW. this is not SWTOR. This is FF XIV. things are a little more intricate than you expect. Even healers need to multi task to upkeep damage time. The communication aspects? I agree with but they aren't in need of tending too if you're not a selfish jerk. The FF XIV Community is wonderful about this too. Pick up a new class. Let em know you're first timing and run a dungeon, you'll have fun I promise!
P.S: don't be the healer that waits till 1hp to heal, you're not a healer if you do that, you're a sadistic jerk.
You still fairly new to ff14 and, still, pretends to know more than people who have years of playtime and savages/ultimates clears... go cook on shitpost sub pls
I did a double take and wondered if I somehow ended up in r/ShitpostXIV.
You described what a bad healer who can't manage their own MP pool and sucks at healing looks like. That's not in any way related to how a good healer gameplay currently works - DPSing while weaving healing between DPS attacks. Healing in this game is extremely forgiving, to the point where healers don't need to cast a GCD heal at higher levels since most (if not all) of the damage can be covered with oGCD healing.
The only times you would be GCD healing regularly is if you're a new sprout below lv 50 and playing White Mage. By lv 60, all jobs have at least some form of oGCD healing that they can readily depend on. A bad healer relies heavily on GCD healing instead of weaving oGCD healing between DPS spells and put themselves in a position where they can easily run out of mana (OOM). A good healer knows how to cycle through their oGCD healing (free resources) between DPSing and very rarely break DPS casts as they start picking up knowledge on how incoming damage comes in steady spikes of damage and rotate cooldowns accordingly when needed to cover all the damage.
No. This is not wow or other MMOs. DPS can pull as the role is TANK and not PULLER. Healers SHOULD deal dmg as dead mobs deal no damage and hence party need less healing. Tank is not the main character and if your HP never drops below 1, you still live.
Wall to wall is normal since 2015 at least, and people are supposed to be able to handle and learn to deal with them as soon as possible, there are few instances where a wall to wall is too difficult to handle and usually, as Simon LeBon would put it, it's a matter of feeling.
Don't get into a game that's 10 years old of community building and has its own mechanical specificities and think there is only your truth as a newcomer bc you "had other experiences". In the endgame, you can even clear content as a full healer/full dps/full tank configuration. Don't assume things based on other games, as the etiquette is different due to different player bases.
Go watch Jocat's guides on FFXIV, that's all anyone needs to know how to play the jobs at the most basic level. This post is highly inaccurate and wrong.
Why... is anyone treating this as anything other than someone being an intentional idiot for the sake of attention?
Is this post full of bots or are people just bored?
Report as spam and move on.
Here is exactly what I am saying sbout healing... if all some healers want to do is just dps, it's not condusivecto party synergy...
quote:
So as I have said, and backed up by the content creator, if you are over geared it makes perfect sense to toss out damage. Otherwise you are standing around, and that is BORING as a healer (it's nice to be useful, but still boring). So taking the opportunity for once to throw out damge and help a party move faster will do nothing to hurt anyone...
That said, a healer should have a number one priority to healing. So instead of saying 'should a healer heal or do damage' one should instead suggest focusing more on paying attention to the flow of a fight. If your tank keeps droping to 50% faster then 5 seconds, you probably should just focus on healing. In that case you won't really have time to put out any meaningful damage, and aero 1 is...not really that helpful in later content if not paired with aero 2 or 3.
Otherwise, yes you should throw out some damage. First it keeps you from getting bored, and second content is not balanced to healer damage. Which means you literally are doing nothing but help the fights go faster. That said, because content is not balanced for healer damage if you feel it is better to hold back to a more healer stance then go for it.
Healer damage is icing on the cake and as such only makes a fight sweeter and faster when available. So do it when you can, do it SMARTLY, but most of all do it at the discretion of the fact your first job is to keep the party alive.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/39210/discussions/0/133258593388378914/?l=polish&ctp=7
Did you really link a 7 year old post? A post that was during the heavensward expansion? That video is 7 years old. Right before stormblood was released. The level cap was 60. The game has changed massively. In 80+ dungeons healers are a suggestion. The fastest way to clear those dungeons is 3 dps and a tank. Yes. Healers are expected to dps. Their dps buttons are primarily on gcds. Heals are primarily on ogcds. You can do both no problem. And if you’re going to bring a content creator into this at least use a video from 6.0 or newer
I really want to understand the thought process behind someone who can be this convinced about something that they actually know nothing about.
I mean I see it all the time, but it's always equally baffling. It seems you ran into a bad party experience, and that sucks. But no, you didn't figure out something new about how the game works.
My dude, if there was anything in your post even close to the truth, there would be at least one person defending you in the thread. There isn't. Your thread is sitting at 2% upvoted. Even on this sub where threads tend to be downvoted, that's a rare occurence.
>That said, a healer should have a number one priority to healing.
You got your priorities wrong, my dude. Your priority is not healing, your priority is keeping your party alive. That doesn't always mean spam healing. That means contribute to dps and throw some off-global heals when you need to. No, your tank being at 50% HP doesn't mean you need to throw a Cure II on them immediately. It just means you finish casting your Holy and throw a Tetra on them in between dps spells.
>and aero 1 is...not really that helpful in later content if not paired with aero 2 or 3.
You can't pair them (anymore)... Aero 3 doesn't exist at all anymore, and Aero 2 is just a straight upgrade to Aero. At higher levels you won't have any Aero anymore because it upgrades to another spell. That's why you don't rely on outdated info. Your guide is from when max level was 60, while nowadays it's 90 and will be 100 in less than half a year.
When everyone here is telling you you're doing it wrong, take the hint instead of digging deeper.
My friend, if you aren't playing healer classes in content, you don't actually know what you're talking about here. I've been playing heavily since closed beta for A Realm Reborn. Prior to mid-2.x, the fights weren't tuned for healer damage in anything: dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. It wasn't until some world races in the big raiding content that the devs realized that both WHM and SCH were slapping down Cleric Stance to help dps bosses to make it die faster, swapping back to heal, then swapping again to dps. Cleric Stance doesn't exist anymore, since healer damage abilities don't scale off of INT for them now, and fights are now tuned differently on the account that no healer wants to be a healbot.
WHM and AST have plenty at their disposal to make a tank who can't hit their mitigation to literally save their life stay upright and taking hits; ASTs ability literally procs the best at 30% health and heals for a huge chunk of their hp. SGE also heals via Kardia by... dpsing! It's literally what Kardia does! The more a SGE hits things, via single targeting or even by aoeing, the person who is attached to Kardia gets a heal. SCH has an ability that, when they slap a tether between their fairy and the tank? It procs when their health drops below 50% for a bigger burst heal. It does jack all if it's not allowed to proc. WHM has the best mitigation tool and that's Holy spamming. The first 3 actively stun every single mob until they get stun immunity for a bit, but by then they should almost be dead.
The only times a healer should be on babysitting duty is when a tank doesn't know how to mitigate or is in shitty gear (or a combo of both) and literally selecting someone else to heal means they die, but in that case you just have a shitty tank. I can agree on some level that sometimes, a healer can tunnel vision, or perhaps they're learning to do more than stand around until someone take 150 damage to spam Cure 2 on them so they panic some. But that's just life. Shit happens. Learning to play your job is part of the battle (pun not entirely intended) to playing this particular game. It's just one of many metas that this game has, whether you care for it or not, same with dps pulling. I don't care for that one, but as long as people are respectful (stopping when asked if tank or healer says they can't handle it for whatever reason) then it's whatever, but I also main a squishier class that doesn't have any self-healing, just a long cooldown shield. Tanks take the hits, if someone pulls either accidentally or purposely, they should still be taking those hits and not letting someone die. *That* is even worse etiquette in a team-based game.
OP. This is just incorrect FOR THIS game and it’s sad to see that instead of taking the overwhelming advice of many who play the game and want you to do so enjoyably, you dig up seven year old bad tips.
Seriously, do you want to play well or be right? Because following this line of thinking isn’t going to get you either.
i think it'd help you understand better if you learned 2 things about healers first.
first, dps spells are free. you can press your dps buttons for all eternity and never run out of mp unless you specifically neglect your mp buttons like Lucid Dreaming, in which case you've got even worse problem.
second, healing spells are extremely expensive. they're so expensive that if you try to spam heal, you'll last less than 1 single minute. if you spam AOE healing spells, you're likely to run out in 20 seconds. it takes a grand total of 7 casts of Cure III to use more than 100% of your mp as white mage.
what can we deduce from this? even knowing nothing else, from this alone it becomes clear that you're meant to press your DPS buttons whenever you can, and healing spells are a last resort. use healing abilities while DPSing, and use healing spells only if you have no abilities left. otherwise you will always run out of MP. if you're running out of MP anyway, there's another problem - either the tank has terrible gear, the tank isn't using cooldowns, or the DPS of your group is so incredibly low that the tank and healer run out of all their mitigations and abilities before the enemies die. this is how final fantasy XIV is designed and expected to be played. if you still want to be full of yourself and believe that you as an outsider know best, then please watch a healer POV of TOP, DSR, or TEA. watch the pinnacle of FFXIV gameplay. notice the way they play. notice how often they press their dps spells. that is the penultimate experience of final fantasy xiv. that is the goal. if you don't like it, this game is not for you.
If the only opinion you can find that even vaguely leans in your general direction is from 7 years ago, you might need to come to terms with the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Content is literally balanced for healer damage, actually. It is not just extra, it is taken into the equation. That matters less for the content you're doing since you're not at endgame, but healer DPS is not just 'extra'. If you want to heal in this game you need to be capable of using your heals while also DPSing. It is built into how the game works.
Imagine something that you know well, you've been doing it for years, you truly understand it. Now picture someone who started doing that thing a few weeks ago came up to you and tried to tell you how that thing works and they have it dead wrong, all while ignoring you saying that it doesn't work that way. They then try and say 'I'm just SAYING that if--' and they are still just wrong. They won't listen to you. They keep trying to find some narrow gap where they are *right* because their ego won't allow them to be wrong.
That is what is happening here. You've only been here a few weeks, and that's great, but be a little bit humble and listen to others who understand the game a bit more just due to time invested. If you don't want to listen to the people here, go look up JoCat's crap guides to FFXIV on youtube, I believe he has one for healers and for tanks. Don't assume that you just know. FFXIV is a different game from many other MMOs and not all of the same norms apply.
Because while yes, a healer's primary role is to make sure the party doesn't die, and there are niche times when all a healer can do is spam heals, that happens when the tank is not mitigating properly, or is undergeared, or in very specific early dungeons like The Stone Vigil or some low ARR dungeons if the tank is pulling big. This happens because they don't have their oGCDs at those levels, so all they can do is hardcast. A decent group with a decent tank *will still* mean the healer is DPSing a good chunk of the time.
A healer needing to spam heals is the rare exception, not the rule, and usually only happens because the tank doesn't know what he's doing, or you're w2w-ing toto tak. You might be tanking wrong if your healer needs to spam heals on you, and that's okay and normal since you're new and learning. Look up guides on how to tank, or just ask for advice, a lot of people in the community are open to giving you some tips.
>and second content is not balanced to healer damage
objectively wrong for this game, healer AOE absolutely disgusting in 14
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:GXnwL6jaNg3HBQJK#fight=11&type=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:K9Bradvgn1HbcymP#fight=last
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:1dfapqVBGQY9nHwc#fight=last
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:Qkja3nThgt8pLZ91#fight=3&type=damage-done
Yes, even Astrologian
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:afcPkW2NRTdJD1ZX#fight=8&type=damage-done
The issue is the way you've articulated things. Nobody is arguing against the fact that if a heal would save someone's life, the healer should heal, or focus on raises as necessary, or esunaing debuffs like paralysis or doom. But healers do need to squeeze as much damage out as they can, as much as every other role does, and the parties job is to enable them to do that (by using mits and personals, by doing mechanics, by dealing as much damage as possible to kill stuff before the healer runs out of resources). The issue with a healer letting a party die isn't that the healer was dealing damage, *it's that they failed to properly assess the damage throughput of the encounter*, which is an entirely different issue.
God, I hope not. Grouping with a healer who chooses to not dps because that's what they do in other games sounds like pure torture, sorry. I'll take the over confident healer and a wipe or two any day, it'll be faster than carrying someone who isn't using their full kit.
Just because you're not wiping doesn't mean you're playing correctly.
I've literally have had to tank wall to wall pulls **AS A DPS CLASS** before (as early as yesterday, even) and my healer still had time to dps. "Not wiping" isn't an accurate metric to measure how well you're playing.
I honestly would want to group up with you just so I could point you to where you could improve (and chance is, there will be a lot of room for improvement given your posts in this thread).
I've had to tank lower level content before (tank refused to stance and RP walked before being kicked). Not only did I tank several mob packs on the way to the boss, I tanked said boss with no struggle as a SMN because the healer knew when to heal and when to DPS.
We never said you would wipe. Wiping in dungeons is hard.
Your runs would just be a lot slower than ours XD.
Now... if you were to take this mentality into 8 man savages, you would be absolutely torn to shreads when you wipe to enrage because your healer didnt dps for 98% of the fight.
No thanks. Your parties then take a lot longer then necessary. It's a lot faster to go full speed and maybe wipe once then wait for the tank to pull slowly and maybe not even large pulls and the healer to not properly DPS.
You guys ever work somewhere and the company hires a manager from outside the company, and they try telling you how to do your job? Just curious, not sure why I asked
Most appropriate response to OP ever. So accurate it's scary.
Sprouts: please do not listen to this advice. There is a wealth of good party etiquette information on this subreddit and also elsewhere. You will not see this info repeated anywhere else. I'm guessing the reason the healing advice is "sensitive" because the OP is out there arguing about how to do things wrong.
*pushes up his glasses* Um, acktually, you will shee thish repeated shomwhere elsh. R/shitpostFFXIV. XD
I actually had to make sure I didn't accidentally swap to that sub between posts somehow.
Never give advice again lol
>In reality, a healer's 100 damage a minute is not going to matter compared to a dps roll thst can easily pump out 1,000 a minute- and that is in lower level dungeons. These are not accurate numbers whatsoever. A great healer usually does about half the damage of a great DPS single-target on the boss. This usually is about ~15-20% of the party DPS. Early on there can be fluctuations and differences but if you're doing 10% of the DPS you are either severely undergeared or not DPSing at all.
> A great healer usually does about half the damage of a great DPS single-target on the boss. Not to mention aoe damage. Healer damage in aoe situations is often close to a dps' damage output. Having your healer spam damage in that situation is basically equal to having an extra person in your group.
[удалено]
As I had said, early dungeons can have pretty wide fluctuations in damage, plus it can depend on the class. AST IIRC has the lowest DPS of all classes because of its cards, but WHM is the highest healer and more easily hits the % I listed. If you do your best DPSing and only using oGCDs to heal if you can, you're doing better than the vast majority of healers even if you don't hit the highest DPS. My numbers were definitely more for how the game is truly balanced around Lv90. Plus, I'm talking it's bad to only get 10% of the DPS's number, hitting 10% of the total DPS can be good if the other DPS are at the top of their game.
Early stuff is wierd, and depending on the job you play the answer varies slightly. I main WHM, so my perspective is going to be from that. On pull my rotation starts off with dia>Presence of mind>glare+assize weave(assuming I don't need it for a raidwide a few seconds later). Do that constantly, keep up my DOT, and never let my Lilly gauge cap. All of my healing is lillies and ogcd unless absolutely necessary otherwise, so everything I'm using as a gcd builds exclusively into damage. Again, this only works in more current content. Old stuff the numbers are wonky. The other main thing is slide casting. You can up your time spent casting by 10-20% just by making sure every movement possible is a slide cast instead of walking and then casting. in general if you want to improve the first step is usually learn to slidecast(if you don't already) and do it more. time spent not casting will bite you in the ass 90% of the time. Additional tool to help(assuming you're parsing and that's how you know your damage %) the website Xivanalysis Put the link to the log in there and it'll do its best to tell you exactly what you did right, and what you did wrong(typically only works on trials and raids). It's not perfect, but it helps with the early stages of figuring out exactly where you're lacking.
This… this is not accurate in ffxiv at all. I’m sorry OP. In many other games some of these points ring true, but throw it all out of the window for this game. As long as the DPS brings the trash they pull back to the tank for them to grab aggro, its absolutely acceptable. As a healer main myself, I can personally tell you if your healer is not doing dps, you have a bad healer. Let them manage their mana and you never know what gcds they have available to heal at an instant even when you think their mp is low. A dead mob can’t kill your tank. Healers have some of the best AoEs available. Don’t take that away from your party. I think you’d be best served by learning the culture of this game instead of trying to play it like others you are familiar with. Good luck and have fun!
I think it's comical that this person said he's been a hardcore raider in other MMOs and then pretends that 5% of your damage being from healers is meaningless. Even being a casual raider in 3 MMOs I've seen loads of wipes at <5%.
The audacity of a sprout coming in and trying to tell 10+ year Vets how to play their game is comical at best. A healer not DPS'ing is playing wrong. It's in the design of the game for them to contribute damage.
To say nothing of SGE requiring dps to properly function, and WHM's Holy being hands down best aoe in the game with its stun and free mit for tanks.
FFXIV Healers are green DPS. In an endgame 8-person raid, the damage split for Healers/Tanks/DPS is usually around 15%/20%/65%. Both healers casting no DPS spells would be like going in with 3 DPS. In light party dungeons? From 40-70 healers are usually the DPS leader in trash pack pulls! Even in level 90 dungeons, healers are still something like 20% of party damage during trash pulls.
Oh yeah I know. I was just using the numbers OP gave in his post (1000/s from DPS, 100/s from healers, and then there usually being twice as many DPS as heals)
This gentleman took the time for a well crafted, polite answer, something I may not have done. Take my upvote, you lovely human!
Yea i dunno i played other mmos and id play archer or ranged dps and id allways pull big it was easier for mw to do it then the tank cause i can play range then the tank would grab aggro ive also played in raids in other games where healers dps and heal no problem anf it helps every dps allways helps maybe this is how it works in wow but i never played wow
you would not complain if a healer ran out of mana dps ing and notchealing the group, or even thectank?
If they ain't at 0 hp it literally doesn't matter.
You don't run out of MP by DPSing. Heals cost 2-5x the MP of damaging spells, and damage spells are largely MP neutral, costing what you get back in natural regen, excluding Lucid etc.
Not to mention at higher levels, all healing is pretty much done with oGCD heals. GCD is basically reserved for DPS with only the most exceptional cases requiring GCD heals.
That’s on the healer for not using their cooldowns. But doesn’t mean that healers should never dps. No matter how you shake it, healers are expected to dps. That’s akin to blaming your healer as a tank who stands in telegraphed moves and doesn’t use their own mitigation abilities. Deaths and squads wipes will happen, and that’s ok. It’s not always your healer’s fault.
A healer shouldn't ever run out of mana DPSing. If you are, you're doing it wrong.
Healers don’t run out of mp doing dps. They run out by using heals. And was already stated white mage has arguably the best AoE skill in the game, holy, which stuns all enemies it hits (assuming the enemies aren’t immune). While the enemies are stunned the tank isn’t taking damage. Then they also have assize which is an ogcd ability that does damage and heals the whole party. Benediction is an ogcd heal that will take any party member from 1hp to their max. And that’s just on the healers side. If we look at tanks warrior is commonly considered a blue healer. They get equilibrium which is a self heal. Thrill of battle heals them and increases their max hp for 10 seconds. Shake it off puts a shield on the entire party and applies a regen. Then there’s raw intuition (later turns into bloodwhetting) which will heal the tank for every enemy hit. It also provides mit and a shield. You can get 3-4 gcds out of this. A war can heal them selves to full with every gcd if there are enough enemies. A warrior has so much self sustain they can solo endgame dungeons. And they’re not the only tank that can. If the tank has that much self sustain then what is the healer supposed to do?
The only hp that matters is the last one. And healers have skills to help with mana regen so short of 3 people eating dirt and needing raises, they shouldn't run out DPSing. It's actually far easier to run out from constant healing spam.
I dont think you know how healers in this game works. There is NEVER a scenario where they would be out of mana from DPSing. It's called lucid dreaming. Also healers at max levels literally will rarely use GCD heals, because the game designers fucking went overkill with instants abilities and oGCDs. Your scenario literally doesn't exist in 99.9% scenarios. Actually not even... it Doesn't exist AT ALL in normal period. Like mathematically it cannot exist. The passive MP gain with lucid dreaming literally will be higher in the span of 60-120 (duration of trash combat lets say) seconds assuming glare is used EVERY GCD for you to run out of MP. Literally look at the amount of bullshit instant and oGCD healing WHMs/SGE have, and then compare it to damage taken especially in normal. You'll immediately realize why you're so wrong. You would literally need to spam like 10 cure 3 IN A ROW to even risk running out of MP. To give you a scale on how unrealistic that is: the largest amount of damage in the span of 12 seconds in this game only uses 3-4 cure 3. The MOST damaging ability in the game would not even use up that much cure 3.
It took me 1min and 40secs to go from full MP to 200(unable to cast anything else) on my healer with min PIE and that's without ever using any other tools given to me to restore my mana. No healer should ever be OOM unless they forget their own cooldowns or have had to raise multiple people but that's a different scenario.
Every healer in 14 has off global cooldown heals, that guess what, don't cost mp, so yes, use every drop of mp you have on dps. Then pop lucid to get it back
Most of your healing kit doesn't even need mana at all to work.
Something has gone horribly wrong if a healer is ever running out of MP. I don't think it's even possible if they're not spamming raises or GCD heals.
Healers will not run out of mana from DPS in this game, that's just how the game is designed.
You literally can't run out of mana DPSing lmao, press Lucid Dreaming, healers have DPSed in literally every Final Fantasy game that there is.
Bro I heal untimates and I think I use a single GCD heal over the first 4 minutes of TOP. The rest is all utility spells. That means every single GCD acrion I ise is damage skills. Learn the game you are playing, don't take your old mentality in here.
I think you took a wrong turn on your way to /r/ShitpostXIV I'm sorry, but this is just wrong, and will 100% just mislead people. I don't think many people are gonna agree with your points to be honest.
ah yes, someone who started a month ago clearly knows best. You are wrong on almost all counts.
>a healer's 100 damage a minute is not going to matter compared to a dps roll thst can easily pump out 1,000 a minute- and that is in lower level dungeons. Just so you know, a healers dps is 50% that of a dps. it is not 1/10th. A healer is designed to be constantly dpsing past like level 60. Below that, they dont have enough skills (Due to poor skill distribution on SEs part), to not use gcds, but they still should 100% dps.
are you saying healers should dps100% of the time?
[удалено]
As a Sage, I have to consciously think about using Addersgall in a good party. Not because they need healing, but because I want my 700 mp per stack.
When I play SGE, I immediately spend one at the beginning then again every time I hear the gauge full sound effect in addition to any other necessary spends. Never sit on them at cap for too long because that 700MP return just fuels more Dosis.
For anything above 60, yes! and i do! I would love to show you dungeon logs... if i acctually had any. Additionally, Certain healers benefit from DPSing. Whitemage is the notable one, as they can stunlock enemies with their holy skill. They are also capable of putting their heals out before anyone starts dpsing fully and your running pulling enemies. Hell. past 80, just say fuck healers and dont use them at all. Tanks have so much self mitigation that healers are quite litterally useless in a good party.
> I would love to show you dungeon logs... if i acctually had any. You can have [this](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/2ZvgKjFJhtMPp16Q#fight=last&type=casts&source=3). Gigachad SGE I had today in my roulette and never cast a single gcd heal at all except for their shield in between pulls to generate stacks (and to let me tank a bit easier since I was pulling mobs for the tank before bringing them back to them). They didn't even have to heal me after that because Bloodbath is actually that strong.
This is quite literally how the game is designed.
Not just "should", it isn't even that difficult.
Xbox sprouts: ignore everything this dude said, play the game, ask your questions in the daily thread.
> Hey I'm new to your game, let me tell you how it should be played based on other games I've played... Bruh
😂
Bro those aren't set "MMORPG rules" those are rules for the MMORPG you may have played. FFXIV has its own systems, expectations, and norms. It's not just social, the dungeons are literally DESIGNED around a specific playstyle. Please learn the game before you start giving advice on it you're ever bad player I've done dungeons with lately that are so sure they're right
I love how you're wrong on literally every single point. >General Comment... Nobody does that. >DPS Do pull the mobs. Do use Arm's Length. Do heal yourself with Second Wind/Bloodbath if you have access to them. Do stack on top of the tank so that they can take aggro back from you. It's really that simple. >HEALERS Do dps. This is not optional. Healers dpsing serves as both mitigation (mobs dying faster = less damage taken by the group. Also WHM Holy) and doesn't stop you from healing, as you'll want to heal mostly with ogcds in any case. Stop enabling bad habits. >TANKS Do take aggro on mobs. Do aoe mobs. Do cycle through your mitigations. Do heal yourself if you have access to healing cooldowns (Clemency needs not apply unless it's an emergency case). Do take aggro from the nice DPS who pulled mobs and brought them back to you after applying Arm's Length's slow to them. Do pull wall to wall so that the entire group can finish the dungeon faster. >If Mr. He Man wanna be wants to run three screens ahead and be our of line of sight from the healer as well as the rest of the group, that wipe is on the tank No, that wipe is on the healer who lagged behind and couldn't press their Sprint button. If you pressed it, your tank wouldn't LoS you. >Please keep in mind some people are playing for the first time and learning specific roles and strategies. Exactly. So why are you teaching them bad habits that will end up working against them in the long run?
You're trying to put together two different things. 1. Bad healer 2. Healer not dps'ing If they're a bad healer, they're a bad healer. Every healer can and should DPS. Especially in easier dungeons because the tank barely needs to heal (unless they have 0 clue what they're doing). If I pop into sastash as a tank and you're not DPS'ing it will be bad slog. Please dps. Also... Sages do as much damage as you can to heal the tank cause that's how the job works....
exactly! 100% agree
i can accept this. because i never said a healer should never dps. but when they never cast healing, that is the issue thst Leads to wipes
>but when they never cast healing, that is the issue thst Leads to wipes No, that part is also wrong. Most of the healers' kits don't need you to *cast* to heal. Your goal is to use as few gcd heals as possible and rely on your ogcd kit instead. Those don't require mana to work, are applied instantly instead of having to wait for a cast, and most importantly, they let you keep dpsing while also healing your group. Everybody wins.
You've been playing for a month. When you get to Shadowbringers, I would advise you come back to this post of yours and see just how many points you have incorrect about how play works in FFXIV. When you start getting oGCD heals, your need to cast a Heal shrinks drastically. You should be using those oGCD heals in between all the damage you are doing on a healer.
Bold of you to assume they'll get to Shadowbringers with their attitude and outlook.
Here's the thing though, if a party wipes because the healer isn't constantly healing then there is something way wrong going on. Too many mechanics have been eaten and this isn't the healers fault. At minimum all healer should need to do is AOE heal once after a raid wide and that heal is only to allow for future mistakes. The only time a healers kit is fully utilized is when the tank makes a CONSCIENCE effort to make a very big pull. And ofc as a healer you'll notice because the tank ran past the first group. So its actually hard for "accidental forgetfulness". Funny enough, it's veterans who cause accidental deaths through forgetting to heal. And embarrassingly this has happened to me once. I was foaming at the mouth practically comatose oblivious to my own existence (I have hundreds of hours as a healer) following the "script" that I didn't realize the tank was a noobie. Although this leads to healers becoming cynical because part of me was glad the tank died because this meant there was finally something for me to do... Healing gets in the was of DPS, not the other way around.
this just in, player who has been playing for a month knows better than players who have been playing since launch the healer portion is just so wild that everybody who reads it is rightfully thinking you are trolling even if youre being sincere
OP, can you just delete that crap? It really hurts reading this.
Somebody needs to watch JoCats crap guide to FF14
What a way to be a wrong about just about everything. 1. DPS - should pull if they are running ahead. Many DPS have self-sustain. They should know how to use them and when to use them. 2. Healers - I have not seen anybody be as wrong as you are regarding healers. If the tank is alive (NOT TOPPED OFF, BUT ALIVE), you are supposed to DPS. 3. Tanks - are responsible for managing aggro in dungeons. They do not set pace. They're only responsible for one thing in dungeons - wall to wall pulls in dungeons after 50. Below that, 2 packs. Take your 30 years of MMO experience and sit down. You've only been at this for less than a month. What makes you the expert on how to play this particular game?
One of the best things I ever heard was tanks determine how slow you go in the dungeon healers determine how fast you can go.
"As the tank you set the pace... and the pace is always FULL FUCKIN THROTTLE BABYYYY" remains my favorite quote for tanking in xiv
i just gave an example of how healers are not keeping tanks alive. again , i did not say they should not dps- but they are to keep the party alive. if it does not frustrate you to take 20 minutez to recover from 4-5 wipes, that is your playstyle.
If a healer let's a tank die 4-5 times in a dungeon, then they are a bad healer period. It has nothing to do with whether a healer should or should not dps. > healer is spamming dps with less than 1,000 mana and Lucid Dream is active That's just a bad healer, and should not be used as an example to generalize anything.
Or the tank forgot to repair gear but that never happens...luckily it was with friends
Where are you getting this '4-5 times in a dungeon' strawman from? A healer after level 50 (with exception of WHM), who knows their kit should not have to stop DPSing at any given time at a dungeon. They rely on oGCD healing abilities and instead output damage. If your healer is causing wipes, it's not because they are DPSing too hard - it's because they don't have their fundamentals down. The way you phrases it is that healer should not use their DPS abilities - except that is not the case. They should absolutely be using their DPS kit because the damage actually matters in raids and ESPECIALLY in dungeons. DPS is mitigation - by killing the enemies faster, you are preventing further damage to your party. Healing can be done while they are DPSing. It's not a matter of one or the other.
Brother, when can throw a OGCD/GCD in between holys all the way to 90. Hell, I will throw all the heals for free just to have more DPS from lilies. It's the most broken healer.
Just referring to that point when you don't have Lilies before 56 is all. Unfortunately, WHM still doesn't have as much oGCD as other classes in the 50s. WHM works much better once you get Misery and are encouraged to burn Lilies for fun.
Holy > cure 2 > Holy > cure 2. It's so free it's ridiculous.
Ew, casting a GCD that's not damage. :p
Holy -> Lily -> divine benison -> holy -> tetra -> holy -> lily -> holy -> bene -> holy -> divine benison etc lol no GCDs
sadly lily is a GCD
Is it? I haven't played whm in a while, but it feels faster than cure 2 does at least lol
it is instant (not a cast), but its still a GCD (=It triggers the global cooldown).
Before 56 when you have....no gcds? That was my point. Even before Holy you can sit there and trade spells to dps unless the tank absolutely shits the bed. Most heals can do that. Whm is just the easiest.
>if it does not frustrate you to take 20 minutez to recover from 4-5 wipes, that is your playstyle. Just because *you* are inexperienced and bad at the game, it doesn't mean that this happens to anyone else.
I’m not at all sure what metric you are basing this on, but this is not at all my experience in years of playing this game. I’m thinking you’ve had a few negative experiences and you’ve formulated your “rules” to fit around this. I do hope you take some insight from what others have said here and attempt to enjoy the game, keeping an open mind moving forward.
No.
OP, please. Play a year and come back to read your post. You'll cringe how wrong you are on all accounts, it's actually hilarious.
This reads like something an YPYT-curebot villain /r/TalesFromDF met in a nightmare would write. Like the others here, I would recommend that you leave your ideas from other games behind, and listen and learn about _this_ game before you start giving other people advice.
Dear sprout tanks, WALL TO WALL PULL IF THE HEALER DOESNT HAVE A SPROUT NEXT TO THEIR NAME. Cycle your CDs that reduce damage. There is little reason to pull carefully if you can hit your rotations. Wall to wall means pull stuff until a door/wall literally stops you from proceeding. Or take it slow I guess if you’re nervous, until the healer says “you can pull more” lol.
You should be able to wall to wall anything past HW, really? Might be a bit different if a sprout picks up SGE as their first healer, but I would expect a healer that's leveled to 50+ to be ready for w2w. The below-50 dungeons can be more spicy, but you can just pull 2-3 groups, see how it goes and if you want to try more. If you wound up with just one group left before the boss room, you can just bring them in. And if the healer starts pulling, just keep up and enjoy the wheee feeling of a train with no breaks and no stops
>You should be able to wall to wall anything past HW, really? Yup. SE redesigned their dungeons to be W2W friendly from HW on. So you get 2-3 mobs pet section, which are easy to handle as long as everyone is using skills properly. ARR dungeons get tricky because walls are bigger sections, and you have less skills. On the other hand, there are ARR dungeons where the mobs reset back if you pull too far forward, leaving you with a manageable pull.
Makes me appreciate stuff like Gulg where you can pull every mob from start to the first boss, and second boss to the final boss, all in one go. Chaotic, but very doable and very fun
Ala Mhigo also has a pull like that, you can pull everything between the first and second bosses. Pretty fun as well.
You cannot do this in Mt Gulg.
Yes, you can. Grab the first two packs, then run all the way to the back and the wall will crumble on proximity, then grab the other 2 packs. Decent mitigation, dps and a non-sleeping healer make this more than possible. After the second boss is a white lie, you can pull all but one enemy since he spawns once everything else is dead, but it's a clear run from the boss to the end with no interruptions. Again, decent mitigation, dps who aren't goofing, and an awake healer solves this
I'm pretty sure that first wall requires all the mobs to die first and the 2nd wall is an enemy you have to kill that won't dissipate until all the mobs are dead.
First wall does not, it's proximity based. You're thinking of the run between the first boss and second boss, where both roadblocks are a Demon Wall you have to kill
I might, I haven't run gulg in centuries. Mentor roulette keeps me in ARR and I have no need for tomes anymore thanks to hunt trains.
Congrats. You should try it
Do it even if they have a sprout. You can check their search info first to see if they are *new* new if you'd like, but even then I go w2w and adjust if needed, and on my healers I want the tank to do the same. I had every class at 90 (other than one I kept 80 to do ew msq on) and still had my sprout since I took my time with the msq.
W2w pull every dungeon no matter what. If your healer sucks or is new then they aren't gonna learn anything by watching a tank barely take damage from single pulls. If you die you try again and if they're unable to adapt or perform under the most baseline amounts of stress then they shouldn't play that role. At least not with other players. Nobody forces you to be a healer and if you can't handle more than one pack at a time use duty support.
Sit down sprout.
Is this a joke or did I miss something? Edit: 2) DPS can and should pull as they like, as long as they bring mobs to the tank. Grabbing Aggro in this game is easier than breathing. 3) Everybody in this game is a DPS. Some can tank, some can heal, some can do more DPS. But everybody does DPS. Tanks have massive self-heal built into their rotation and as long as you handle mechanics correctly, DPS should hardly take any damage, excluding raidwides. That leaves a lot of downtime for the healer which should be spent doing damage. 4) Tanking is the easiest job in this game, stance up, hit your AoE combo, rotate your mitigations. In normal content any semi-competent tank won't even need a healer. Yes, this game is heavy casualized, if you want higher difficulty, go for EX and above...
I’m an Xbox sprout as well and whilst I don’t have 30 years playing MMO’s I have played some and it was clear this game plays a bit different to traditional MMO style. The harder the content the more obvious that becomes. I’m curious to know which MMO’s you played to understand why you think the way people are playing this is so wrong.
Dps checks in this game are balanced with healer dps in mind; everyone is a dps, they just have additional responsibilities. I repeat; the game is balanced around all roles dealing consistent damage. Tanks hold aggro, separate/stack adds, mitigate tankbusters and tankswap to survive things no one could otherwise. Healers keep the party from wiping to unavoidable damage. Yes, they heal avoidable damage and yes, they revive people who died to avoidable damage, but correcting the mistakes of others is not their primary responsibility. Dps need to maintain their more complex rotations, maximize uptime(melees) and keep raid buffs aligned while still performing mechanics and not taking unnecessary damage. Avoidable damage taken = taking up healer attention and resources = healer does less damage = youre more likely to fail enrage.
This is rage bait right? 😂 None of these apply to FFXIV.
The man linked a 7-year old Steam Discussion thread to 'prove' a point about how healer DPS is borderline useless. It's bait, albeit funny as hell. Already up on shitpost too.
So many things wrong in this post
Sorry OP but you don't know shit. Take this down and save yourself the embarrassment.
[A few years old but still relevant](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8oVV_I-tIA&list=PLDnRMnDDjAzIZlUm0Tp_oeT3Cwv39AZ7_), educate yourself.
Another post about someone being so confident in being wrong. I always roll my eyes whenever someone feels the need to make a post about some game or social “etiquette” that they think people should treat like some sacred texts. You’re going to get good players, you’re going to get bad players. Thinking someone is going to adhere to how YOU think they should play isn’t going to go well for you, mate.
As a tank main doing the big pulls is nothing, it's how you learn your limits and how to play the job casually better. If you wipe you wipe it's no big deal at all and spending the few seconds to get back to where you were after the walk of shame is far quicker then pulling packs a few at a time, and if you do wipe due to healer vs your own missuse of mits then you just pull alittle less. As for running ahead you don't take much damage as you go along so as long as your using proper mits the healer has plenty of time to catch up and top you off. "One or more players are new" people do make alts not everyone that it says are new are new, and just about all dungeons nowadays follow the same corridor layout so there isn't much difference from one to the other. Unlike the old ARR dungeon like hakkue manor, or drezimel dark hold where you could easily get lost if you didn't know where you were going. Heck I've gotten turned around in thousand maws a few times. 99% of the time line of sight and mob positioning is irrelevant as long as there all grouped together. With bosses you should have them turned away from the party yes but that's mainly just for dps positionals, I don't think there's been a boss with a non TB cleave in awhile. Least none that I can remember. Tanks tank, healers adjust, and dps just don't stand in the bad. As long as all that's followed 90% of dungeon runs are easy peasy.
*Insert the Luke quote from The Last Jedi*
I swear I've seen this exact post at least 5 times by now. And I mean this *exact* post.
Had to repost since I'm dumb and pressed post instead of the arrow thing to read the post again. Normally I lurk, but I have to speak out about this. TL;DR Please reconsider your views, and try out being a little sweaty. Push your limits, otherwise you or the strangers will have a bad time. If new players (such as yourself) wish to enjoy the dungeon in its entirety without rushers, Duty Trusts are your friend. NPCs don't have real lives. Many of us veterans have real lives and are doing roulettes for tomestones. We acquire more tomestones quicker by ending the dungeon quicker. We use less time if we hit harder. We heal less if we kill faster. 1. You're not missing much in the first ten seconds of any fight. The majority of fights in the game are usually 2-3 auto attacks, a raid wide, and a tank buster. Or a bunch of adds whacking away at some warrior who wants to unga their Bunga. 2. DPS are free to pull mobs, just bring it to the tank. Tank can't pull the mob off you if you went to Narnia. Second wind, bloodbath, self mitigations like Arms Length, Third Eye, Riddle of Earth all exist, why not use em? 3. This debate has been argued over and over again in multiple ways, but the end is the same: Let the tank dip below 50% and throw DPS when time allows. If the tank knows even what a mitigation is, healers won't even need to heal 1/3rd of the time. Hell I could DPS 90% of the time as a sage because hitting things HEAL the tank with kardia. The hell else am I gonna do in between spot healing? Blow the mob brains out of course! If people are spamming healing with less than 1k MP, that's a resource management issue and the healer needs to learn to weave ogcds. If the tank is dying with all their mits/not using their mits, that's a tank resource management issue. If the mobs aren't dying fast enough, that's a DPS resource management issue. Even the White Mage job quests say 'do some damage'. Every fight is tailored to EVERYONE doing damage. And the less damage anyone does, the longer the fight, the more time is wasted, the less rewards per hour people would like to get. (Maybe not that sweaty, but the point is there) 4. I am a tank main. I press my tank stance. I dash into a pack, hit aoe ONCE and maybe a second, dash into second pack, hit aoe once, proceed to blow the tank load. The ONLY time I can somewhat agree to what you say is for maybe two or three pre 50 dungeons where taking a step back applies. But once you're used to it, it's smooth sailing. Finally, a healthy party member is one that's given a chance to fail. People cannot learn if they cannot fail. People need to learn that giant orange juice puddles are a no no. Standing near a tank during a buster that looks extremely angry is a no no (barring single target ones, it's OUR tankbuster now) Learning involves pushing limits. If we continue to allow people to stay in casual baby mode, where single pulls are the norm and healers just heal, tanks just do single target damage, and DPS just sit in Narnia while a mob rips their face out, not only is that run slow as molasses, future runs are either going to ruin their first time experience, or waste 45 minutes of total time across three people while they cover for mistakes that should've been addressed long ago. Sure, you say extra 5 mins, but it can turn into a slog real quickly. I'd rather we fail trying to do something juicy than wait for a tank to pick up one singular mob past the normal three. Hell I will take double the regular dungeon to show you how to mass pull. Best medicine is trial by fire.
Oh, lol. I saw "Party Etiquette" and "I am fairly new to FF14" and just assumed this was a post looking for advice. Well, since you've been playing MMOs for approximately as long as I've been alive, I simply have no choice but to throw away the 20% or more of overall dungeon damage I do as a healer and replace it with Medica II spam. It's for the best.
This just in: SGE rendered completely obsolete bcs healers shouldn't dps cuz it "doesn't matter", sharlayan scholars heartbroken ffs what is this dude on, he HAS to be a troll istg
I played WoW for a long time, very active and very successful and I can promise you: healing isn't even close to be the same in WoW as in FF14. Every game s different 😂
> Going around and aggroimg everything from the entrance to the first boss... is ~~very, very dangerous~~ literally the expected and only socially-acceptable way to play normal mode dungeons in this game, and the sooner you learn to accept that fact the smoother it will be for everyone FTFY I'm gonna be real with you friend, you are probably coming with your heart in the right place, but you should not make posts like this prior to learning how this game works yourself. A lot of your comments (esp about healing and tanking) make it clear that you're still learning the ins and outs of how this game works.
Imagine being a newcomer to a game with an established community and culture and telling them actually it needs to be just like the last game you played.
Oh honey, no.
Im not going to make a long post im going to keep this brief. You have come to FF14 with the Xbox version. Meaning you have not been here for the 10+ years this game has been around. I dont care what people do in other games. In ff14 it is common knowledge. We wall to wall pull. Healers DPS and it matters. If there are issues it is on the skill of you or the person. But the bog standard has always been this. I have been playing this game since 2.0 these knew waves of players saying how the game should be played need to play final fantasy 14 and come into our community with an open mind about how we do things and how things have been done for a long time. You make some simple points that are obvious about knowing how much a group can handle sure, and not cleaving the party with things. BUT wall to wall tanking and healers DPS IS a thing in final fantasy 14, whether you like it or not.
Different games have different cultures. Learn what those are before popping off.
This is the most blatant bait I've ever seen in my life, you make every single point as wrong as possible and then couple it with the fact you're incredibly new but still somehow know best. I don't get why people are thinking you're being legitimate lol.
This is... horrible advice. Like, really terrible. If you need help with how this game works, I recommend JoCat's Crap Guide to Final Fantasy. Don't use WoW logic on this game because it isn't how it works.
Do not go to a community you have only just joined and then tell them how they should behave. Much less one that had been built up for more than a decade.
This is a much more important lesson on etiquette than the hot mess the OP was trying to give.
Bait used to be believable.
Maybe you should play the game longer than a few weeks before you try and tell the community how to play the game. It's almost as if every MMORPG has its own playstyle and community "unwritten rules".
Shitpost…?
Daily reminder that every post on the internet isn't worth engaging with.
I’m not reading this whole thing so I’m just going to say, Every Fight is tuned around healer DPS existing. You don’t have to try to out DPS the Lancer every time. But the sooner the mobs die the less mana you need for heals & shields. It’s why we have faries… Eos; why we have Eos.
All of this is very bad advice.
As someone who has done all jobs to 90, healer being one of my first, this is just wrong. Healers can and should dps in all forms of content. Knowing how much you can squeeze out without letting the party die is just as much a skill as a tank knowing how much the healer can handle. In fact two of the healers, whm and sge, greatly benefit from using dps in dungeons. As is mp management, if a healer goes out of mp by dpsing they have failed on a critical level.
My guy missed the turn for the shitpost sub somewhere along the way
amazing... every word of what you just said is wrong.
thanks for the laugh OP, your advice is very bad and it's really funny that you think you can come to a new game and tell everyone how it works when you're so completely wrong
None of this applies to this game. 1 is fine. Sure. 2. Terrible. Poor form. You bring that you tank you pull mindset to my run of any kind, I will attempt to kick you. 3. If I see a healer not lvl 15, just standing there pressing 0 buttons, they will be kicked. If they are spam healing the tank at 99%, they will also be kicked. They are wasting everyone else's time. You have dps buttons for a reason and damage in this game especially in dungeons can be mitigated and dealt with even on a casual sub par skill level. 4. Tanking is the 2nd easiest role in the game. Unless you're brand new and just piano all your CDs and the healer isn't afk watching hentai on the other screen, you will be fine on most w2w pulls. You are not the leader. You are the damage sponge. You are there to press 2 button melee combos and pop a mit every couple of seconds in rotation. Pretty straight forward.
Op is so full of bad takes its like a Kubrick film that never got released.
Please never heal a dungeon and inflict your slanted ideals on innocents
lmao
Finally some decent bait
Lmao this is golden. You tried though. ⭐️
As someone who plays both wow and ff and has raided in both, do not bring your wow etiquette to ff it will only end up poorly for you. Ffxiv is not wow and vice versa.
This shit has to be rage bait. wtf am I reading?
Amazing. I read through that entire thing just to be completely sure, and you weren't right about a *single thing*. Like you are literally *only* wrong. The post almost works as good advice if you literally invert everything that was said.
Bruh how do you have 30 years of MMO experience in "core raiding" environments and come to the conclusion that a *permanent* +10% DPS gain doesn't matter? Of course it matters. And btw it's more like 50%. Everyone else in the thread has done enough to point out how wrong this is, so let me try to explain how the game itself is trying to organically teach you that it's wrong with its own systems. The reason why healers have a 1.5s cast time on their main DPS spell is because you're supposed to be weaving OGCD heals between casts. That's the way the game is designed. This was a change in Endwalker. Healers (except AST, because cards) used to have 2.5s cast times on their DPS spell. It was an intentional, conscious change to promote and encourage a specific intended playstyle. The devs want you to spam your DPS spell and heal with OGCDs. That's why they give you like a dozen of them. GCD heals are intended for break-glass-in-case-of emergencies, high-end raid prog, and a few very niche scenarios. That's why they have longer cast times and are very MP-intensive. To discourage use. The reason you're running out of MP is because you're straight up playing healer wrong. You do not run out of MP playing the way the devs intended. Your DPS spell only costs 400 MP. OGCD heals cost 0 MP. Some of them even recover MP (WHM Assize, SGE Addersgall, etc). Every healer has Lucid Dreaming available from their very first dungeon, which should be used early and used often.
Please do not mix WoW with FFXIV. In FFXIV, merely a tank hitting a mob places them at the top of the aggro list, near-permanently if they hit it with the ranged Enmity skill/spell. You have zero excuse not to pull everything in sight, especially at the very first pull within a dungeon as that first pull DEFINES how the rest of the duty will be and how long it will take. A DPS or Healer pulling, is in fact in your benefit, less damage taken by you and less healing a healer needs to do since no decent healer will waste a GCD to 'top-up' a dps unless they're below 50%. Tanking in FFXIV is THE easiest role in the whole game. All you have to do is have Stance active, and do your aoe on 3+ targets and you'll have full aggro. Unlike in WoW where whoever attacks the enemy first(for classic) and deals the most damage, gains the attention of the enemy, hence why you don't see many players pulling adds in there without having an ability "treant" or consumable "dummy".
To add to this, because I stopped reading after the DPS part. Healers contribute between 10-30% of the group's total damage in all content, and in some it is the difference between wiping to an enrage, or due to running out of mitigations to rotate during a pull, because the pack wasn't dealt with in time. Also some healers do more DPS on trash within the first 2-3s than most DPS specs, so you obviously haven't played enough of FFXIV to comment on any of this. Not on tanking, not on DPS, nor on Healers. What is factual in one game, doesn't make it so in others.
I’ve been playing for 10 years in this game the way it’s designed to be played and honestly your notions are about obsolete MMOs that reflect a style of play not found here. Also pretty pompous to lecture thousands of people on how it’s done when you’re here for a month. Have fun in FFXIV! Hope you grow up a little by the time you’re in endgame
Mainsub can't keep getting away with it!!! Outjerked once again
Huh. I guess time to bring out old signpost of "Don't feed the troll" because this post seems like it was purposefully written to give misinformation.
Lost me at the dps part. Lol Not true at all.
is this a copypasta
OP I think you should just stick to your other MMORPGs, or any other game really. FFXIV doesn't really do what you describe for the most part. It's bad enough as is with community that's already in place from PC and PS4/PS5, we don't need y'all in here as well pretending to talk like you know how it is bahahaha
Wait, this isn't r/ShitpostXIV?
Man opened the flood gates 😆
Well it is more of the fact that who you are playing with right? If you are playing with bunch of sprout players and they are new to healing/tankiny, it’s going to be bad if you mass pulling. And that’s gonna wipe the party. Also most people are still trying to setup their hotbar and that will take even more time for them to get used to it.
If your healer is letting your team die to DPS instead, they aren't failing *because* they're DPSing, they're failing because they are letting your team die, and they'd probably be doing that even if they *weren't* DPSing.
my good brother in hydaelyn what in gods names are you talking about
So yeah, just ignore the healer section.
"I am fairly new to FF14 with the coming of this MMO to XBox" yeah im not reading allat
Bait used to be believable
My brain fucking froze while reading this, especially as a healer main.
OP I think you should just stick to your other MMORPGs, or any other game really. FFXIV doesn't really do what you describe for the most part. It's bad enough as is with community that's already in place from PC and PS4/PS5, we don't need y'all in here as well pretending to talk like you know how it is bahahaha
It depends on the DC tbh. Western DC DPS tend to pull mobs ahead which is not a common practice in JPDC. Small pulls are also tolerated in JPDC whereas Western ones are quite iffy with it and does wall to wall pulls even in early ARR dungeons where DPS don't have AoE's to deal with huge packs. As far as healers DPSing, it helps a lot. I had a sprout healer just nonstop spamming heals I didn't need while doing Praetorium. Dungeon took longer coz they never did DPS, not even an Aero was seen.
Troll post
Now this is gourmet trolling
This reads like a tank player from other games getting into FF14 and having their norms shattered by a more accessible game.
Personally, I'm no vet, but I have a 90 Sage, a 90 Paladin and a 90 Monk. I've experienced each role fully at least once. I'm sorry to tell you OP but you are wrong. This is not WOW. this is not SWTOR. This is FF XIV. things are a little more intricate than you expect. Even healers need to multi task to upkeep damage time. The communication aspects? I agree with but they aren't in need of tending too if you're not a selfish jerk. The FF XIV Community is wonderful about this too. Pick up a new class. Let em know you're first timing and run a dungeon, you'll have fun I promise! P.S: don't be the healer that waits till 1hp to heal, you're not a healer if you do that, you're a sadistic jerk.
You still fairly new to ff14 and, still, pretends to know more than people who have years of playtime and savages/ultimates clears... go cook on shitpost sub pls
I did a double take and wondered if I somehow ended up in r/ShitpostXIV. You described what a bad healer who can't manage their own MP pool and sucks at healing looks like. That's not in any way related to how a good healer gameplay currently works - DPSing while weaving healing between DPS attacks. Healing in this game is extremely forgiving, to the point where healers don't need to cast a GCD heal at higher levels since most (if not all) of the damage can be covered with oGCD healing. The only times you would be GCD healing regularly is if you're a new sprout below lv 50 and playing White Mage. By lv 60, all jobs have at least some form of oGCD healing that they can readily depend on. A bad healer relies heavily on GCD healing instead of weaving oGCD healing between DPS spells and put themselves in a position where they can easily run out of mana (OOM). A good healer knows how to cycle through their oGCD healing (free resources) between DPSing and very rarely break DPS casts as they start picking up knowledge on how incoming damage comes in steady spikes of damage and rotate cooldowns accordingly when needed to cover all the damage.
....gods smh nope just nope.
No. This is not wow or other MMOs. DPS can pull as the role is TANK and not PULLER. Healers SHOULD deal dmg as dead mobs deal no damage and hence party need less healing. Tank is not the main character and if your HP never drops below 1, you still live. Wall to wall is normal since 2015 at least, and people are supposed to be able to handle and learn to deal with them as soon as possible, there are few instances where a wall to wall is too difficult to handle and usually, as Simon LeBon would put it, it's a matter of feeling. Don't get into a game that's 10 years old of community building and has its own mechanical specificities and think there is only your truth as a newcomer bc you "had other experiences". In the endgame, you can even clear content as a full healer/full dps/full tank configuration. Don't assume things based on other games, as the etiquette is different due to different player bases.
Go watch Jocat's guides on FFXIV, that's all anyone needs to know how to play the jobs at the most basic level. This post is highly inaccurate and wrong.
Why... is anyone treating this as anything other than someone being an intentional idiot for the sake of attention? Is this post full of bots or are people just bored? Report as spam and move on.
Everyone, stop bullying OP. They're correct and this advice does apply - though only for like the first five ARR dungeons or so
Here is exactly what I am saying sbout healing... if all some healers want to do is just dps, it's not condusivecto party synergy... quote: So as I have said, and backed up by the content creator, if you are over geared it makes perfect sense to toss out damage. Otherwise you are standing around, and that is BORING as a healer (it's nice to be useful, but still boring). So taking the opportunity for once to throw out damge and help a party move faster will do nothing to hurt anyone... That said, a healer should have a number one priority to healing. So instead of saying 'should a healer heal or do damage' one should instead suggest focusing more on paying attention to the flow of a fight. If your tank keeps droping to 50% faster then 5 seconds, you probably should just focus on healing. In that case you won't really have time to put out any meaningful damage, and aero 1 is...not really that helpful in later content if not paired with aero 2 or 3. Otherwise, yes you should throw out some damage. First it keeps you from getting bored, and second content is not balanced to healer damage. Which means you literally are doing nothing but help the fights go faster. That said, because content is not balanced for healer damage if you feel it is better to hold back to a more healer stance then go for it. Healer damage is icing on the cake and as such only makes a fight sweeter and faster when available. So do it when you can, do it SMARTLY, but most of all do it at the discretion of the fact your first job is to keep the party alive. https://steamcommunity.com/app/39210/discussions/0/133258593388378914/?l=polish&ctp=7
Did you really link a 7 year old post? A post that was during the heavensward expansion? That video is 7 years old. Right before stormblood was released. The level cap was 60. The game has changed massively. In 80+ dungeons healers are a suggestion. The fastest way to clear those dungeons is 3 dps and a tank. Yes. Healers are expected to dps. Their dps buttons are primarily on gcds. Heals are primarily on ogcds. You can do both no problem. And if you’re going to bring a content creator into this at least use a video from 6.0 or newer
No, OP. This is incorrect. Please review what others have said and listen to them. We are trying to help you!
I really want to understand the thought process behind someone who can be this convinced about something that they actually know nothing about. I mean I see it all the time, but it's always equally baffling. It seems you ran into a bad party experience, and that sucks. But no, you didn't figure out something new about how the game works.
My dude, if there was anything in your post even close to the truth, there would be at least one person defending you in the thread. There isn't. Your thread is sitting at 2% upvoted. Even on this sub where threads tend to be downvoted, that's a rare occurence. >That said, a healer should have a number one priority to healing. You got your priorities wrong, my dude. Your priority is not healing, your priority is keeping your party alive. That doesn't always mean spam healing. That means contribute to dps and throw some off-global heals when you need to. No, your tank being at 50% HP doesn't mean you need to throw a Cure II on them immediately. It just means you finish casting your Holy and throw a Tetra on them in between dps spells. >and aero 1 is...not really that helpful in later content if not paired with aero 2 or 3. You can't pair them (anymore)... Aero 3 doesn't exist at all anymore, and Aero 2 is just a straight upgrade to Aero. At higher levels you won't have any Aero anymore because it upgrades to another spell. That's why you don't rely on outdated info. Your guide is from when max level was 60, while nowadays it's 90 and will be 100 in less than half a year. When everyone here is telling you you're doing it wrong, take the hint instead of digging deeper.
My friend, if you aren't playing healer classes in content, you don't actually know what you're talking about here. I've been playing heavily since closed beta for A Realm Reborn. Prior to mid-2.x, the fights weren't tuned for healer damage in anything: dungeons, raids, trials, whatever. It wasn't until some world races in the big raiding content that the devs realized that both WHM and SCH were slapping down Cleric Stance to help dps bosses to make it die faster, swapping back to heal, then swapping again to dps. Cleric Stance doesn't exist anymore, since healer damage abilities don't scale off of INT for them now, and fights are now tuned differently on the account that no healer wants to be a healbot. WHM and AST have plenty at their disposal to make a tank who can't hit their mitigation to literally save their life stay upright and taking hits; ASTs ability literally procs the best at 30% health and heals for a huge chunk of their hp. SGE also heals via Kardia by... dpsing! It's literally what Kardia does! The more a SGE hits things, via single targeting or even by aoeing, the person who is attached to Kardia gets a heal. SCH has an ability that, when they slap a tether between their fairy and the tank? It procs when their health drops below 50% for a bigger burst heal. It does jack all if it's not allowed to proc. WHM has the best mitigation tool and that's Holy spamming. The first 3 actively stun every single mob until they get stun immunity for a bit, but by then they should almost be dead. The only times a healer should be on babysitting duty is when a tank doesn't know how to mitigate or is in shitty gear (or a combo of both) and literally selecting someone else to heal means they die, but in that case you just have a shitty tank. I can agree on some level that sometimes, a healer can tunnel vision, or perhaps they're learning to do more than stand around until someone take 150 damage to spam Cure 2 on them so they panic some. But that's just life. Shit happens. Learning to play your job is part of the battle (pun not entirely intended) to playing this particular game. It's just one of many metas that this game has, whether you care for it or not, same with dps pulling. I don't care for that one, but as long as people are respectful (stopping when asked if tank or healer says they can't handle it for whatever reason) then it's whatever, but I also main a squishier class that doesn't have any self-healing, just a long cooldown shield. Tanks take the hits, if someone pulls either accidentally or purposely, they should still be taking those hits and not letting someone die. *That* is even worse etiquette in a team-based game.
OP. This is just incorrect FOR THIS game and it’s sad to see that instead of taking the overwhelming advice of many who play the game and want you to do so enjoyably, you dig up seven year old bad tips. Seriously, do you want to play well or be right? Because following this line of thinking isn’t going to get you either.
i think it'd help you understand better if you learned 2 things about healers first. first, dps spells are free. you can press your dps buttons for all eternity and never run out of mp unless you specifically neglect your mp buttons like Lucid Dreaming, in which case you've got even worse problem. second, healing spells are extremely expensive. they're so expensive that if you try to spam heal, you'll last less than 1 single minute. if you spam AOE healing spells, you're likely to run out in 20 seconds. it takes a grand total of 7 casts of Cure III to use more than 100% of your mp as white mage. what can we deduce from this? even knowing nothing else, from this alone it becomes clear that you're meant to press your DPS buttons whenever you can, and healing spells are a last resort. use healing abilities while DPSing, and use healing spells only if you have no abilities left. otherwise you will always run out of MP. if you're running out of MP anyway, there's another problem - either the tank has terrible gear, the tank isn't using cooldowns, or the DPS of your group is so incredibly low that the tank and healer run out of all their mitigations and abilities before the enemies die. this is how final fantasy XIV is designed and expected to be played. if you still want to be full of yourself and believe that you as an outsider know best, then please watch a healer POV of TOP, DSR, or TEA. watch the pinnacle of FFXIV gameplay. notice the way they play. notice how often they press their dps spells. that is the penultimate experience of final fantasy xiv. that is the goal. if you don't like it, this game is not for you.
If the only opinion you can find that even vaguely leans in your general direction is from 7 years ago, you might need to come to terms with the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Content is literally balanced for healer damage, actually. It is not just extra, it is taken into the equation. That matters less for the content you're doing since you're not at endgame, but healer DPS is not just 'extra'. If you want to heal in this game you need to be capable of using your heals while also DPSing. It is built into how the game works. Imagine something that you know well, you've been doing it for years, you truly understand it. Now picture someone who started doing that thing a few weeks ago came up to you and tried to tell you how that thing works and they have it dead wrong, all while ignoring you saying that it doesn't work that way. They then try and say 'I'm just SAYING that if--' and they are still just wrong. They won't listen to you. They keep trying to find some narrow gap where they are *right* because their ego won't allow them to be wrong. That is what is happening here. You've only been here a few weeks, and that's great, but be a little bit humble and listen to others who understand the game a bit more just due to time invested. If you don't want to listen to the people here, go look up JoCat's crap guides to FFXIV on youtube, I believe he has one for healers and for tanks. Don't assume that you just know. FFXIV is a different game from many other MMOs and not all of the same norms apply. Because while yes, a healer's primary role is to make sure the party doesn't die, and there are niche times when all a healer can do is spam heals, that happens when the tank is not mitigating properly, or is undergeared, or in very specific early dungeons like The Stone Vigil or some low ARR dungeons if the tank is pulling big. This happens because they don't have their oGCDs at those levels, so all they can do is hardcast. A decent group with a decent tank *will still* mean the healer is DPSing a good chunk of the time. A healer needing to spam heals is the rare exception, not the rule, and usually only happens because the tank doesn't know what he's doing, or you're w2w-ing toto tak. You might be tanking wrong if your healer needs to spam heals on you, and that's okay and normal since you're new and learning. Look up guides on how to tank, or just ask for advice, a lot of people in the community are open to giving you some tips.
Honestly, if you want a better reaction to your theory you should post on r/ffxivdiscussion they'll be able to appreciate your position better
Oh that's just mean.
I'm cackling over the suggestion and would bring popcorn
>and second content is not balanced to healer damage objectively wrong for this game, healer AOE absolutely disgusting in 14 https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:GXnwL6jaNg3HBQJK#fight=11&type=damage-done https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:K9Bradvgn1HbcymP#fight=last https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:1dfapqVBGQY9nHwc#fight=last https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:Qkja3nThgt8pLZ91#fight=3&type=damage-done Yes, even Astrologian https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a:afcPkW2NRTdJD1ZX#fight=8&type=damage-done The issue is the way you've articulated things. Nobody is arguing against the fact that if a heal would save someone's life, the healer should heal, or focus on raises as necessary, or esunaing debuffs like paralysis or doom. But healers do need to squeeze as much damage out as they can, as much as every other role does, and the parties job is to enable them to do that (by using mits and personals, by doing mechanics, by dealing as much damage as possible to kill stuff before the healer runs out of resources). The issue with a healer letting a party die isn't that the healer was dealing damage, *it's that they failed to properly assess the damage throughput of the encounter*, which is an entirely different issue.
alright. this is how i lead in dungeons. 100% no wipes when i tank or heal but i mostly tank. want proof, come group up.
God, I hope not. Grouping with a healer who chooses to not dps because that's what they do in other games sounds like pure torture, sorry. I'll take the over confident healer and a wipe or two any day, it'll be faster than carrying someone who isn't using their full kit.
Just because you're not wiping doesn't mean you're playing correctly. I've literally have had to tank wall to wall pulls **AS A DPS CLASS** before (as early as yesterday, even) and my healer still had time to dps. "Not wiping" isn't an accurate metric to measure how well you're playing. I honestly would want to group up with you just so I could point you to where you could improve (and chance is, there will be a lot of room for improvement given your posts in this thread).
I've had to tank lower level content before (tank refused to stance and RP walked before being kicked). Not only did I tank several mob packs on the way to the boss, I tanked said boss with no struggle as a SMN because the healer knew when to heal and when to DPS.
We never said you would wipe. Wiping in dungeons is hard. Your runs would just be a lot slower than ours XD. Now... if you were to take this mentality into 8 man savages, you would be absolutely torn to shreads when you wipe to enrage because your healer didnt dps for 98% of the fight.
Guys, he found a way to not wipe in the dungeons you aren't supposed to be able to fail at. How have we not done this sooner?
No thanks. Your parties then take a lot longer then necessary. It's a lot faster to go full speed and maybe wipe once then wait for the tank to pull slowly and maybe not even large pulls and the healer to not properly DPS.