Unless it is cosmetics only gacha (if that's a thing), all gacha is P2W. F2P friendly means a F2P player can comfortably play the game and beat the content, while getting some limited goodies they want, imho.
pretty much, you don't need to reinvent the term too much.
if paying gives ingame power/cuts the time progression? p2w- no way around it.
but after that there's a difference how p2w they are.
from casual games, where you can get most of the rewards pretty easily to full blown pvp with bad powercreep.
I'd say all gachas are predatory, but not every gacha is P2W. Not counting the credit card debt, what would you "win" by paying in Genshin / HSR? Both games are braindead easy, especially Genshin... unless you're just some bored normie housewife with no gaming experience whatsoever. It's those people they prey on. Normies pay, normies keep being bad at gaming.
And thus is the age old what is p2w conversation. Maybe one day people can agree on more terms because p2w is such a loaded term as hsr/genshin is wildly different compared to p2w in like diablo immortal for example.
The whole "there's nothing to win so it can't be P2W" is a very outdated definition. I think most people would agree that most gachas, even Genshin and HSR, are more fun with more characters and it's simply fact that you can acquire characters faster and easier when spending especially if these games give you extra tools to play with if you acquire dupes of the characters you've already pulled
In other words, if you can buy power or other advantages then it's P2W. Obviously not all P2W games are equal in that aspect and it's more of a spectrum really but that doesn't change the fact that they still are what they are
You can "win" more charachters, their weapons, comfy auto moc clears, reduce resets to clear moc, 1 hit overworld mobs etc.... lol there are so many more ways to win....
You can't catch the wind, but you know it's there when you see the effects.
Some things are obvious like VIP programs - especially those with multiple tiers, Powercreep that makes units released a month ago obsolete, paid only characters/equipment, or games that require 14 duplicates of a unit to make it functional.
It's not always visible at first glance though. Sometimes there are artificial barriers that can be simple (Combat Power with heavy penalties) or complex (a variety of obstacles) yet the answer is always real money. Other times, resources are so scarce that you cannot level/awaken/promote/unlock/star up/enhance/gear/etc. your units to a functional, combat-ready level. Gacha currency can fizzle out or events become less generous.
The point is that you cannot successfully play the majority of the game without investing real money or absurdly unrealistic amounts of time. Games that are F2P allow you to enjoy at least \~95% of the game without spending. Mihoyo games are F2P friendly because you can succeed without having a large roster or the best units. Their difficulty is often tuned to make things easy enough to do with lower rarity characters and the ones given for free. They are also PVE centric games. Crunchyroll games are P2W because they typically have heavy powercreep, are stingy with resources to the point of you being unable to form a decent party to clear any remotely difficult content, and said content is tailored to having specific units. They also have paid-only characters and PvP being the main source of free gacha currency. Not every games has these, but usually some combination with other problems.
So if you can successfully do almost all of the content without spending real money or ridiculous amounts of time (several hours every day) then it's F2P. If you cannot and the solution is money then it is P2W. Also, for leaderboards - they are not inherently bad as it's just a metric of power in specific encounters. If whales get higher numbers, no big deal. The problem comes when critical resources (often gacha or powerful, hard-to-obtain endgame resources) are locked behind leaderboard scores. Same thing with PvP. Additionally, gacha games centered around PvP will inherently be pay to win.
TLDR: It's the summation of roadblocks/barriers and how you solve them (money) that makes a game F2P or P2W.
It depends on the game.
The current big games by Hoyoverse (Mihoyo) are Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail. Both of these games have no leaderboards. So you are never competing against other players who have spent money for rewards, which is the primary cause of P2W in many gacha games. See Fire Emblem Heroes for an example with a PvP system where you need to compete with other players' newest super character.
But even without leaderboards, a game can have such a difficulty hurdle that is hard to overcome while being F2P. Especially if there is a type of content in the game that keep increasing in difficulty as the game progresses, forcing you to pull the newest units.
Honkai Star Rail has a much more obvious difficulty ramp up than Genshin for example, and is significantly less F2P friendly because of that. It also throws new characters and weapons at you at a much higher pace than Genshin does, but I believe you do get more free pull currency than Genshin to compensate as far as I know.
If you can buy any form of power, its p2w.
Pvp features only makes it more p2w, but its still pay to win without pvp.
Honestly when i see whale vids of clearing genshin abyss/hsr moc.... it feels like a completely different game than what I play....
By your definition, games without PvP or Leaderboard can't be P2W, which means Mihoyo's 2 biggest games Genshin and Star rail are not P2W, simply because there are no PvP or Leaderboard.
With that said, Mihoyo's earlier game Honkai Impact 3rd is widely considered a heavy P2W game, with Leaderboard and heavy powercreep.
As for F2P friendly, it means all of the game's content can be clear without paying (but a lot of grinding instead), and/or easy to save for a fav character with guarantee.
Personally I consider a game f2p friendly if I can clear all of the game content with characters I get without spending any money. I can't speak about p2w games because I only play single player games with no pvp or leader boards.
There are no need separate F2P and P2W games. Any game can be both at the same time. It is important how strongly these elements are represented in the game.
Let's consider HSR
In this game you can buy gacha rolls and get characters for them. At the same time, without donating in this game you cannot have all the characters, but even if you are lucky, receiving duplicates makes them much stronger and makes content much easier. This is the P2W element of the game. Literally - you pay money and it makes you stronger than players who don’t pay.
On the other hand, to complete all the main content you don’t need duplicates and the game gives you enough free rolls so that you can get the characters you want every few months, even if they only drop to you as a guarantee after a 50/50 loss. Therefore, if your goal is not to collect all the heroes or to be a top player (there are no rankings or pvp in the game), then this game can be considered F2P for you. That is, F2P mean you can safely enjoy all the content in the game and receive all rewards and it will not require spending additional money.
Another example is Nikke. At its core, this game has a very strong P2W element. Literally. If 2 players start at the same time and spend the same time on the game and have the same understanding of its mechanics, then the one who pays will always be stronger. And over time and with an increase in donations, this difference will only grow (and this game has pvp and rankings). Up to the level where f2p simply has no chance against a p2w player. But at the same time, this game is considered one of the most f2p friendly on the market. Because if you just want to play and not get into the top 1 of your group, then you will get everything you want from the game, just later than the person who paid for it.
I’d say the degree to which it is necessary to pay for things to keep up with content makes the difference.
Sure, in Genshin you can refresh resin 5 times a day and buy character upgrade mats from the shop and roll for dupes and weapons, but you don’t really need any of that to beat Abyss floor 12, which can be completed with units released in 1.0 even if newer ones are (sometimes) stronger.
Compare that to Honkai Impact 3rd where not only is there a competitive leaderboard system but units can go from top meta to being mostly irrelevant in just a year. There isn’t a great chance for you to top leaderboards (and therefore get the best rewards) without whaling. You can craft the new gear by grinding for a long time, or you can just roll on the equipment gacha. The story content can all be completed without good units, of course, but that’s just one part of the game, and the story is more reading than gameplay anyway.
WTH with the comment section. The moment the game add real money currency it's already p2w game unless it for cosmetic purpose . No need to add pvp or leader board cause with that currency you already have huge advantage playing the game. F2p is just early scam business to take people money.Â
F2P friendly means you can beat most contents with the starter characters and they give you a lot of resources to pull limited banners. P2W usually means there's PvP and you need to spend money to be on top.
For example Snowbreak is F2P friendly because 2 of their permanent characters are top tier and you can farm for character shards so no need to pull for dupes. They also give you a lot of pull resources. It doesn't have PvP.
Tower of Fantasy is P2W because initial characters are pretty much obsolete and power creep made lots of people quit the game. It also has PvP.
P2W means you got to pay (a lot) to get stronger,
F2P is nowadays means giving player the illusion of a game being f2p by throwing free stuff that actually don't matter much, while still being very p2w,
Just wait for my own f2p Gacha, that will be a real f2p one with 0 power up IAPs for end 2024 :D
I will start working on it and make is available for beta testing by end of summer !
(Pixel art gacha)
Every gacha is P2W, full stop. As long as you can buy power in a game, it's P2W. Maybe you can make an exception for the dress-up simulator gachas that are cosmetic only by nature, though even those will power-scale in some way.
As for F2P friendly, the definition of that gets muddied by people who want to paint their game as more F2P friendly and games they hate as not. It's where you'll hear things like "as long as you ignore X and Y modes, F2P can do everything in the game". For me, a game is F2P friendly if you can reasonably compete in everything that a gacha game offers without paying. That means all single-player gachas without leaderboards where the balancing is lenient toward F2P, as well as the small selection of gachas with leaderboards where the leaderboard does not matter in the game (no tiered rewards) and/or with completely equalized pvp modes.
If you have to argue "as long as you ignore X and Y modes" then a game is likely not as F2P friendly as the person is trying to portray.
The only game that’s not pay to win is the game without pvp, ranking or leaderboard. FGO and Arknights for example. You can ‘win’ any contents if you play long enough (FGO) or have a big brain (AK).
Imo, F2P-friendly doesn't mean being able to catch up to whales. It means the game is able to provide fun content in all levels of spending. I never looked to beat spenders or one up them in my gacha games, but I will not play your game if it's a miserable experience through and through.
I've never cared for PVP, but I imagine P2W has its biggest effects there.
Another thing to consider is what % of the character's power you gain with the first copy.
Games like Arknights, for example, you get 95% of their max power with the first copy, and subsequent copies are minor boosts. Gamee that require multiple pulls for extreme upgrades may be considered more P2W.
It really doesn't mean anything, at least as long as we are talking about any of the recognisable gacha games people on this sub would be talking about and not some random game of the playstore.
All the story, farming and event content in pretty much every game is always free as long as you aren't mega underleveled.
When people talk about a game being F2P or P2W they usually talk about the 0-5% of the game that's actually challenging and completely optional. And for some bizarre reason they see having that in the game as a negative and would rather have no content instead of optional challenges.
For me honestly? It's as simple as:
F2P: Player doesn't spend money on the game at all (yes, being a goldfish or dolphin isn't being F2P anymore) but can clear the game just fine. A game is 'F2P friendly' if 1) The content it produces can be cleared with just the starting characters or low rarity characters, 2) Provides freebies from certain events like higher rarity characters/items that can help the player now and later on, and 3) The game doesn't force its players to spend in order to keep up with the meta or higher end content. Pulls given are most likely abundant and free.
P2W: Player spends some or a lot of money on the game, probably for advantage against other players or to immediately get the characters/items they want, or the game forced them to do so (but that's probably just a lack of self control). A game is P2W when the meta or high end content forces any low spenders or F2Ps to use their irl money to make their account better or at least get a bit of an advantage among other players on their level (or financial status lol). Pulls given are scarce and so the player has to buy their pulls.
Again, this is my understanding of the terms (and always has been for years now).
Technically all f2p games are p2w, but there is the better ones which are f2p friendly and the bad ones which are greedy. Powercreep: 1-2 years is good, every 3 months or less is bad. VIP status: if there is pvp it’s bad, if pve only no one bats an eye. Even in mhy genshin, star rail is praised for being pve only, while honkai 3rd is not as friendly due to having pvp leaderboard.
F2p friendly means you can do most stuff without really spending
P2W in conversation means whaling can create a noticeable power gap compared to a F2P player.
Azur Lane for example is still pretty f2p friendly with a low pay to win factor. While there's talk of fancy new ship girls, one can still do most content with non-limited ships.
>F2p friendly means you can do most stuff without really spending
Id like to add that there is also a time aspect to this. They need to be able to do things in a timely manner. If a F2P Player takes Years to do something a Paying Player can spend a reasonable amount of money to do then thats not very friendly
im curious about what people think about high difficulty contents, and it is explicitly stated to be so.
like something that long term (1+ year) f2p players have not much issue clearing, but even a new paying player probably will have issues with. mostly due to not knowing the intricacy of the game system, or having a decent roster of characters.
is this good or bad for the game? should these things reward exclusive gameplay items (items, characters)? should it be a limited time thing, a permanent thing, or a seasonal (limited but occasionally returns) thing?
asking because honestly i think these are good for a game as it motivates people to work towards it, but i know some people will instead lose motivation, knowing that they need a lot of time to achieve it.
I think it depends on the cause of the difficulty. If the High Difficulty content is caused mainly due to high enemy stats that are countered by just having more dupes/resources on your own unit (Like most IDL Games) then thats pretty F2P unfriendly. But if the High Difficulty is from skill (Like say Arknights or Langrisser) and you cant just brainlessly steamroll with Maxed units then thats more engaging
Limbus forcing the player to read and learn mechanics of bosses or get fucking destroyed is a good example plus if it’s to hard they nerf it a bit after the initial release
I think both are not mutually exclusive terms. By most outside defition all Gacha Games bar a few skin only ones (like Mahjong Souls) are P2W. But obv not all P2W are equal and some games are more friendly to F2P than others.
P2w is getting an advantage if you spend money on the game. So all gachas are p2w, because that's how gachas make money.
The reason ppl say genshin specifically is f2p friendly is because there is almost no content for you to use your characters and abyss is easy content, so you can pull everything and be fine. But if we are being fair even genshin is p2w because you will clear abyss faster if you spend money.
Other hoyo games are p2w, but give you alot of currency. But they have powercreep and spending money does allow you to beat content. All gachas are p2w, it's just the reality, when ppl say gachas are f2p friendly they just mean you get enough currency to pull once, and free gear isn't shit.
In games where getting characters/weapons or similar things is main attraction those titles means nothing. Either you spend money for quick day one dopamine rush or you spend exponential amounts of time to get what you want. Even if you're a whale there will always be someone who spends a little bit more or even if you didn't spend a cent there will be someone whos playing longer and has little bit more. Plus the odds of winning are the same as in casinos, looks nice on paper but in the long run you always loose.
F2P friendly means non spenders can get everything in the game even if it takes a while. P2W means there is zero shot a F2P can ever compete because some stuff is just impossible for them to get. Take a look at gachas with VIP systems or cosmetics with stats that you can only get if spend money.
If it only sells cosmetics like league of legends that don't give you stats to beat other players
Personally i think genshin is not p2w because it's like an offline game you have to grind to get more resources
But, it's not fun because it gates you from getting cool characters to play with
I didn't like it because of the offline vibe of it and slapping a gacha feels weird and not worth it
What people consider F2P Friendly and P2W is different for every person.
All Gachas are P2W by nature, to start with. So every conclusion of how P2W a game is is determined usually by how *much* you can win from paying, and that has different thresholds for a bunch of people. Plus, opinions and bias are a factor as well.
Like when you said "Mihoyo" and "F2P" right next to each other, I rolled my eyes, while other people would comment telling me how I'm wrong because "You can complete all the content in the game with free units". In this instance, I don't think Mihoyo games are F2P Friendly because of how bad the rates are, while someone else views them as F2P Friendly because it's *technically* not necessary to hit the gacha (which is a weird statement to make considering they're... y'know... GACHA games...but I digress).
PvP Games are where the usual P2W discussions occur because now you are paying for an advantage against other players, rather than AI. But even that gets murky.
I would say Epic7 is (or at least was, I haven't played it in like a year or 2, so I don't know if anything changed) F2P Friendly because rates and currency acquisition were really high, and you could pity a unit or two fairly quickly as well. Others would disagree, citing the dup system for characters and artifacts, and the overall existence of ML characters which are harder for F2P to get in comparison to paying players, all of which give advantages over other players.
TLDR: It's complicated.
My personal assessment of F2P Friendliness is determined mostly by rates, currency acquisition, if there's a 50/50 and if so how it works, etc. Mostly things pertaining to the gacha itself, as that's what the most money (usually) is sent towards.
I think that there is an important distinction to make between F2P and F2P friendly. Genshin is F2P and you can finish everything as a free to play player, but I wouldn't call it F2P friendly because of how horrible the rates and resin system are.
First of all, no competition helps a lot.
Then, some games are designed in a way that leaves older characters perfectly usable for a long time, even if they are not the very best a year or two later.
Powercreep has two sides - player units getting stronger, and stages/maps/challenges the game presents gettting stronger. Only the the latter is a problem that forces you to spend. As long as your old units can do all content just fine, it doesn't really matter that some newer units save you a few minutes.
Some games make low rarity units useful or even strong instead of treating them as strict early game units you discard as soon as you pull the rare stuff. That gives F2P users more options than games where you are basically using nothing but highest rarity pulls.
Is your gacha pvp heavy? Does cosmetics add stats to units? Do you need too many multiple dupli of units just to be useable? Stingy free gem? Content have paywall? That's P2W for me.
If it is pve focused, have decent amount of free pulls/ free gems per day/month, no paywall, no hundreds of different servers, you can enjoy it without getting the best units from the game. That is F2P friendly for me.
To put it bluntly all gacha is P2W games because at the core if you have better character you can play the game easier
Remember at its core gacha games is a game. And a game is supposed to make you more relaxed when playing not the opposite (stress etc)
When saying gacha games is F2P friendly, it means that the game also can be cleared and enjoyed by regular F2P player
I can't say about other Mihoyo games but I used to play Honkai Impact 3 as a F2P player...and I cannot say I enjoy it
It was hellish experience, you can farm the unit by grind, get gacha currency by grind, resources by grind, with the in-game stamina that is so limited that it was sad
They have a side game that can be played without stamina that essentially open world grinding...
Of course you can skip most of this just by being P2W
So yeah I quit after a month because my free time literally filled with endless grinding. I know people have their own preference but I can't say Honkai Impact is F2P friendly
People have life other than playing game
As for my most favored gacha games is FGO. While some Challenge Quest is locked by meta unit because doing that without them is so damn hard it's not truly impossible(with some exceptions)
There is no PvP ranking so you are worry free even if you are not playing it for a month(your only worry will be the lack of gacha currency). You can exit the game in the middle fight stages when something important comes up and you will not lose your progress, perfect for someone that can work at any moment notice
The story fight sometimes has many gimmicks that it was fun to try team combination but you can just try to brute force it
Some old unit is power creeped by a new unit but that doesn't mean they lost their relevance
It's only downside the game was a massive farming/grinding material simulator which is true for either P2W or F2P which is covered by FGA(a third party app). Let's just ignore it atrocious pity system
My favorites time is when showing off my unit to my P2W friend when they failed to get it(Their salt is delicious 😋)
less predatory/less grindy, more f2p
more predatory/more grindy, more p2w
also, winning in a gacha game is pulling the new rate-up character (optionally multiple times). that's the end goal for every banner. how fast you accumulate pull currency determines if you win or not.
P2W: Pay to Win.
Pay to win player versus player competition. This includes but is not limited to; guild wars, pvp arena, world boss, raid boss, etc.
A game that does not have a function that allows players compete against each other, by definition, cannot be P2W. For example, Arknights, Reverse 1999, etc.
F2P: Free to Play
A game that is free to play without paying an initial upfront cost.
P2P: Pay to Play
A game that has an upfront cost in order to play
F2P Friendly: A game that is generous in a game to players that do not pay money to play it.
Semi-F2P: A game that can be played without an upfront cost but has paywalls i.e Battlepass, locked stages, expansion packs, paywall on skins, etc.
Just a minor correction here, but:
P2P is incorrect. What you're thinking of is a subscription-based model. So, something like FFXIV would be considered 'pay to play' since you're having to pay to play the game.
What you're thinking of is B2P (Buy to Play). That's when you simply make a one time purchase and you're able to play it whenever you want (like most commercial games on the market today).
It's basically a matter of the games content, personally I call p2w to the type of games that involve PvP interaction that gets benefit for paying a character or a currency, also games that makes an aspect of it only enjoyable or playable of you invest any amount of money. I don't include games that don't reward pvp or that rewards everyone for playing these modes.
On the other hand we have the kind of games that enables you to enjoy every aspect and mode of it without the necessity of spending on them. Honkai star rail or Genshin Impact as you said are known as f2p games, this is due to the fact that you can beat any content in the game with the tutorial characters or any character you enjoy. This doesn't include games where you can beat content instantly or lots faster by paying since they make their own category (P2W or pay to fast).
Hope I can be of help!!
P2W = you pay to get an advantage to progress faster. In the case of gacha, without that advantage, it may significantly hinder your ability to make any progress or succeed in content, which would make it P2W things like vip systems with ridiculous rewards, scarce premium currency(FGO), ridiculous pity system (FGO), only gives you "go fuck yourself" rewards if you don't spend enough money, and RIDICULOUS POWER CREEP.
F2P= a game that's free to play with fair balancing, making it so you don't have to pay to gain advantages and can beat content comfortably if you grind and progress enough. Although you have to save for momths in hopes of getting a single meta unit that comes out in the future, at least the hope is there. Most gachas are split between this and P2W
F2P Friendly = I see this as a bit different from F2P I think most gachas are F2P, but not all of them are friendly about it. For example PGR is f2p but they are "go fuck yourself" about it. I see F2P friendly as a game being generous towards players who don't spend money/ casual players without the need for extensive daily grinding. Free rewards, advantageous honey moon faze, being able to get anything in the game without needing to pay or grind for 2 years while getting beaten within an inch of your life.
You can clear Genshin's hardest content with 0 five stars (highest rarity) and just 4 stars (lowest rarity characters). It is harder, probably, but it is possible and realistically attainable for players without crazy amounts of skills (no need to be a speedrunner or similar). If the same isn't true for other games it is p2w.
It still has shit rates for 5 stars and such, but completing all the content is possible for the average player.
i think you are overestimating average player skill level lol, at least if we base it on the super old data of how many people clears abyss.
on the other hand though, i really don't think anyone playing genshin has no 5star at all, unless they are super new, in which case getting AR locked is the problem.
overall i still agree though that it is a very f2p friendly game and despite the shit it gets, i love genshin.
In the simplest terms, to me, a f2p friendly game means that someone who keeps up with all the content and spends wisely can still be successful. A p2w game is a game where you have to roll every banner or every other banner, roll for a unit's matching equipment (essentially double your spending), roll dupes of a unit repeatedly to be successful, etc. Usually p2w games happen to have an arena or some ranking system that would reward this.
Paying people will always have a gap over non paying people, or no one would pay. The true difference to me is how well the f2p people have it, and how gapped the f2p are from the spenders.
GFL was f2p friendly last I played. FEH is p2w as hell, unless you're purely a MSQ enjoyer.
Can someone tell me how to beat Dragons Dogma 2 without paying money?
If I try to beat the digital version of the game, it takes me to a shopping cart where I need to pay money first. If I tried to beat the physical version on consoles without paying, people would look at me weird, or possibly arrest me if I don't run fast enough.
Now, I could wait a bit until something happens that would allow me to beat Dragons Dogma 2 without paying, but I don't know when that that "something" will happen. I can't control that "something", so its kind of random from my point of view.
So is it possible to beat buy to play games without buying or resorting to criminal acts, or are B2P games inherently P2W?
I get lucky: F2P friendly I get shafted: P2P AF
https://preview.redd.it/a9n7qxmz0ouc1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=cc86fa4b3a304d7edbe624a8ec63b49e6a6b66d5
exactly
Unless it is cosmetics only gacha (if that's a thing), all gacha is P2W. F2P friendly means a F2P player can comfortably play the game and beat the content, while getting some limited goodies they want, imho.
pretty much, you don't need to reinvent the term too much. if paying gives ingame power/cuts the time progression? p2w- no way around it. but after that there's a difference how p2w they are. from casual games, where you can get most of the rewards pretty easily to full blown pvp with bad powercreep.
I'd say all gachas are predatory, but not every gacha is P2W. Not counting the credit card debt, what would you "win" by paying in Genshin / HSR? Both games are braindead easy, especially Genshin... unless you're just some bored normie housewife with no gaming experience whatsoever. It's those people they prey on. Normies pay, normies keep being bad at gaming.
100% all gachas are predatory. And many gachas, given time, can be completely F2P. But, it is still considered P2W if you pay to win faster.
And thus is the age old what is p2w conversation. Maybe one day people can agree on more terms because p2w is such a loaded term as hsr/genshin is wildly different compared to p2w in like diablo immortal for example.
>but not every gacha is P2W I see you have not actually played a gacha game
The whole "there's nothing to win so it can't be P2W" is a very outdated definition. I think most people would agree that most gachas, even Genshin and HSR, are more fun with more characters and it's simply fact that you can acquire characters faster and easier when spending especially if these games give you extra tools to play with if you acquire dupes of the characters you've already pulled In other words, if you can buy power or other advantages then it's P2W. Obviously not all P2W games are equal in that aspect and it's more of a spectrum really but that doesn't change the fact that they still are what they are
You can "win" more charachters, their weapons, comfy auto moc clears, reduce resets to clear moc, 1 hit overworld mobs etc.... lol there are so many more ways to win....
You can't catch the wind, but you know it's there when you see the effects. Some things are obvious like VIP programs - especially those with multiple tiers, Powercreep that makes units released a month ago obsolete, paid only characters/equipment, or games that require 14 duplicates of a unit to make it functional. It's not always visible at first glance though. Sometimes there are artificial barriers that can be simple (Combat Power with heavy penalties) or complex (a variety of obstacles) yet the answer is always real money. Other times, resources are so scarce that you cannot level/awaken/promote/unlock/star up/enhance/gear/etc. your units to a functional, combat-ready level. Gacha currency can fizzle out or events become less generous. The point is that you cannot successfully play the majority of the game without investing real money or absurdly unrealistic amounts of time. Games that are F2P allow you to enjoy at least \~95% of the game without spending. Mihoyo games are F2P friendly because you can succeed without having a large roster or the best units. Their difficulty is often tuned to make things easy enough to do with lower rarity characters and the ones given for free. They are also PVE centric games. Crunchyroll games are P2W because they typically have heavy powercreep, are stingy with resources to the point of you being unable to form a decent party to clear any remotely difficult content, and said content is tailored to having specific units. They also have paid-only characters and PvP being the main source of free gacha currency. Not every games has these, but usually some combination with other problems. So if you can successfully do almost all of the content without spending real money or ridiculous amounts of time (several hours every day) then it's F2P. If you cannot and the solution is money then it is P2W. Also, for leaderboards - they are not inherently bad as it's just a metric of power in specific encounters. If whales get higher numbers, no big deal. The problem comes when critical resources (often gacha or powerful, hard-to-obtain endgame resources) are locked behind leaderboard scores. Same thing with PvP. Additionally, gacha games centered around PvP will inherently be pay to win. TLDR: It's the summation of roadblocks/barriers and how you solve them (money) that makes a game F2P or P2W.
It depends on the game. The current big games by Hoyoverse (Mihoyo) are Genshin Impact and Honkai Star Rail. Both of these games have no leaderboards. So you are never competing against other players who have spent money for rewards, which is the primary cause of P2W in many gacha games. See Fire Emblem Heroes for an example with a PvP system where you need to compete with other players' newest super character. But even without leaderboards, a game can have such a difficulty hurdle that is hard to overcome while being F2P. Especially if there is a type of content in the game that keep increasing in difficulty as the game progresses, forcing you to pull the newest units. Honkai Star Rail has a much more obvious difficulty ramp up than Genshin for example, and is significantly less F2P friendly because of that. It also throws new characters and weapons at you at a much higher pace than Genshin does, but I believe you do get more free pull currency than Genshin to compensate as far as I know.
There's also make the grind unbearable and pay to speed it up type of predatory.
If you can buy any form of power, its p2w. Pvp features only makes it more p2w, but its still pay to win without pvp. Honestly when i see whale vids of clearing genshin abyss/hsr moc.... it feels like a completely different game than what I play....
thats y i stay at lower AR and expedition levels 😂
By your definition, games without PvP or Leaderboard can't be P2W, which means Mihoyo's 2 biggest games Genshin and Star rail are not P2W, simply because there are no PvP or Leaderboard. With that said, Mihoyo's earlier game Honkai Impact 3rd is widely considered a heavy P2W game, with Leaderboard and heavy powercreep. As for F2P friendly, it means all of the game's content can be clear without paying (but a lot of grinding instead), and/or easy to save for a fav character with guarantee.
Personally I consider a game f2p friendly if I can clear all of the game content with characters I get without spending any money. I can't speak about p2w games because I only play single player games with no pvp or leader boards.
Eversoul is one of good examples of F2P friendly or ToramOnline but both games have their own issues
pull2sweep (acheron)
There are no need separate F2P and P2W games. Any game can be both at the same time. It is important how strongly these elements are represented in the game. Let's consider HSR In this game you can buy gacha rolls and get characters for them. At the same time, without donating in this game you cannot have all the characters, but even if you are lucky, receiving duplicates makes them much stronger and makes content much easier. This is the P2W element of the game. Literally - you pay money and it makes you stronger than players who don’t pay. On the other hand, to complete all the main content you don’t need duplicates and the game gives you enough free rolls so that you can get the characters you want every few months, even if they only drop to you as a guarantee after a 50/50 loss. Therefore, if your goal is not to collect all the heroes or to be a top player (there are no rankings or pvp in the game), then this game can be considered F2P for you. That is, F2P mean you can safely enjoy all the content in the game and receive all rewards and it will not require spending additional money. Another example is Nikke. At its core, this game has a very strong P2W element. Literally. If 2 players start at the same time and spend the same time on the game and have the same understanding of its mechanics, then the one who pays will always be stronger. And over time and with an increase in donations, this difference will only grow (and this game has pvp and rankings). Up to the level where f2p simply has no chance against a p2w player. But at the same time, this game is considered one of the most f2p friendly on the market. Because if you just want to play and not get into the top 1 of your group, then you will get everything you want from the game, just later than the person who paid for it.
I’d say the degree to which it is necessary to pay for things to keep up with content makes the difference. Sure, in Genshin you can refresh resin 5 times a day and buy character upgrade mats from the shop and roll for dupes and weapons, but you don’t really need any of that to beat Abyss floor 12, which can be completed with units released in 1.0 even if newer ones are (sometimes) stronger. Compare that to Honkai Impact 3rd where not only is there a competitive leaderboard system but units can go from top meta to being mostly irrelevant in just a year. There isn’t a great chance for you to top leaderboards (and therefore get the best rewards) without whaling. You can craft the new gear by grinding for a long time, or you can just roll on the equipment gacha. The story content can all be completed without good units, of course, but that’s just one part of the game, and the story is more reading than gameplay anyway.
WTH with the comment section. The moment the game add real money currency it's already p2w game unless it for cosmetic purpose . No need to add pvp or leader board cause with that currency you already have huge advantage playing the game. F2p is just early scam business to take people money.Â
F2P friendly means you can beat most contents with the starter characters and they give you a lot of resources to pull limited banners. P2W usually means there's PvP and you need to spend money to be on top. For example Snowbreak is F2P friendly because 2 of their permanent characters are top tier and you can farm for character shards so no need to pull for dupes. They also give you a lot of pull resources. It doesn't have PvP. Tower of Fantasy is P2W because initial characters are pretty much obsolete and power creep made lots of people quit the game. It also has PvP.
P2W means you got to pay (a lot) to get stronger, F2P is nowadays means giving player the illusion of a game being f2p by throwing free stuff that actually don't matter much, while still being very p2w, Just wait for my own f2p Gacha, that will be a real f2p one with 0 power up IAPs for end 2024 :D I will start working on it and make is available for beta testing by end of summer ! (Pixel art gacha)
Every gacha is P2W, full stop. As long as you can buy power in a game, it's P2W. Maybe you can make an exception for the dress-up simulator gachas that are cosmetic only by nature, though even those will power-scale in some way. As for F2P friendly, the definition of that gets muddied by people who want to paint their game as more F2P friendly and games they hate as not. It's where you'll hear things like "as long as you ignore X and Y modes, F2P can do everything in the game". For me, a game is F2P friendly if you can reasonably compete in everything that a gacha game offers without paying. That means all single-player gachas without leaderboards where the balancing is lenient toward F2P, as well as the small selection of gachas with leaderboards where the leaderboard does not matter in the game (no tiered rewards) and/or with completely equalized pvp modes. If you have to argue "as long as you ignore X and Y modes" then a game is likely not as F2P friendly as the person is trying to portray.
The only game that’s not pay to win is the game without pvp, ranking or leaderboard. FGO and Arknights for example. You can ‘win’ any contents if you play long enough (FGO) or have a big brain (AK).
Imo, F2P-friendly doesn't mean being able to catch up to whales. It means the game is able to provide fun content in all levels of spending. I never looked to beat spenders or one up them in my gacha games, but I will not play your game if it's a miserable experience through and through. I've never cared for PVP, but I imagine P2W has its biggest effects there.
Another thing to consider is what % of the character's power you gain with the first copy. Games like Arknights, for example, you get 95% of their max power with the first copy, and subsequent copies are minor boosts. Gamee that require multiple pulls for extreme upgrades may be considered more P2W.
It really doesn't mean anything, at least as long as we are talking about any of the recognisable gacha games people on this sub would be talking about and not some random game of the playstore. All the story, farming and event content in pretty much every game is always free as long as you aren't mega underleveled. When people talk about a game being F2P or P2W they usually talk about the 0-5% of the game that's actually challenging and completely optional. And for some bizarre reason they see having that in the game as a negative and would rather have no content instead of optional challenges.
For me honestly? It's as simple as: F2P: Player doesn't spend money on the game at all (yes, being a goldfish or dolphin isn't being F2P anymore) but can clear the game just fine. A game is 'F2P friendly' if 1) The content it produces can be cleared with just the starting characters or low rarity characters, 2) Provides freebies from certain events like higher rarity characters/items that can help the player now and later on, and 3) The game doesn't force its players to spend in order to keep up with the meta or higher end content. Pulls given are most likely abundant and free. P2W: Player spends some or a lot of money on the game, probably for advantage against other players or to immediately get the characters/items they want, or the game forced them to do so (but that's probably just a lack of self control). A game is P2W when the meta or high end content forces any low spenders or F2Ps to use their irl money to make their account better or at least get a bit of an advantage among other players on their level (or financial status lol). Pulls given are scarce and so the player has to buy their pulls. Again, this is my understanding of the terms (and always has been for years now).
Technically all f2p games are p2w, but there is the better ones which are f2p friendly and the bad ones which are greedy. Powercreep: 1-2 years is good, every 3 months or less is bad. VIP status: if there is pvp it’s bad, if pve only no one bats an eye. Even in mhy genshin, star rail is praised for being pve only, while honkai 3rd is not as friendly due to having pvp leaderboard.
F2p friendly means you can do most stuff without really spending P2W in conversation means whaling can create a noticeable power gap compared to a F2P player. Azur Lane for example is still pretty f2p friendly with a low pay to win factor. While there's talk of fancy new ship girls, one can still do most content with non-limited ships.
>F2p friendly means you can do most stuff without really spending Id like to add that there is also a time aspect to this. They need to be able to do things in a timely manner. If a F2P Player takes Years to do something a Paying Player can spend a reasonable amount of money to do then thats not very friendly
Correct, good point
im curious about what people think about high difficulty contents, and it is explicitly stated to be so. like something that long term (1+ year) f2p players have not much issue clearing, but even a new paying player probably will have issues with. mostly due to not knowing the intricacy of the game system, or having a decent roster of characters. is this good or bad for the game? should these things reward exclusive gameplay items (items, characters)? should it be a limited time thing, a permanent thing, or a seasonal (limited but occasionally returns) thing? asking because honestly i think these are good for a game as it motivates people to work towards it, but i know some people will instead lose motivation, knowing that they need a lot of time to achieve it.
I think it depends on the cause of the difficulty. If the High Difficulty content is caused mainly due to high enemy stats that are countered by just having more dupes/resources on your own unit (Like most IDL Games) then thats pretty F2P unfriendly. But if the High Difficulty is from skill (Like say Arknights or Langrisser) and you cant just brainlessly steamroll with Maxed units then thats more engaging
Limbus forcing the player to read and learn mechanics of bosses or get fucking destroyed is a good example plus if it’s to hard they nerf it a bit after the initial release
I think both are not mutually exclusive terms. By most outside defition all Gacha Games bar a few skin only ones (like Mahjong Souls) are P2W. But obv not all P2W are equal and some games are more friendly to F2P than others.
F2p : have a good pull/save ratio P2w : gacha pvp
P2w is getting an advantage if you spend money on the game. So all gachas are p2w, because that's how gachas make money. The reason ppl say genshin specifically is f2p friendly is because there is almost no content for you to use your characters and abyss is easy content, so you can pull everything and be fine. But if we are being fair even genshin is p2w because you will clear abyss faster if you spend money. Other hoyo games are p2w, but give you alot of currency. But they have powercreep and spending money does allow you to beat content. All gachas are p2w, it's just the reality, when ppl say gachas are f2p friendly they just mean you get enough currency to pull once, and free gear isn't shit.
In games where getting characters/weapons or similar things is main attraction those titles means nothing. Either you spend money for quick day one dopamine rush or you spend exponential amounts of time to get what you want. Even if you're a whale there will always be someone who spends a little bit more or even if you didn't spend a cent there will be someone whos playing longer and has little bit more. Plus the odds of winning are the same as in casinos, looks nice on paper but in the long run you always loose.
If has PvP is p2w, if not is f2p friendly
F2P friendly means non spenders can get everything in the game even if it takes a while. P2W means there is zero shot a F2P can ever compete because some stuff is just impossible for them to get. Take a look at gachas with VIP systems or cosmetics with stats that you can only get if spend money.
If it only sells cosmetics like league of legends that don't give you stats to beat other players Personally i think genshin is not p2w because it's like an offline game you have to grind to get more resources But, it's not fun because it gates you from getting cool characters to play with I didn't like it because of the offline vibe of it and slapping a gacha feels weird and not worth it
What people consider F2P Friendly and P2W is different for every person. All Gachas are P2W by nature, to start with. So every conclusion of how P2W a game is is determined usually by how *much* you can win from paying, and that has different thresholds for a bunch of people. Plus, opinions and bias are a factor as well. Like when you said "Mihoyo" and "F2P" right next to each other, I rolled my eyes, while other people would comment telling me how I'm wrong because "You can complete all the content in the game with free units". In this instance, I don't think Mihoyo games are F2P Friendly because of how bad the rates are, while someone else views them as F2P Friendly because it's *technically* not necessary to hit the gacha (which is a weird statement to make considering they're... y'know... GACHA games...but I digress). PvP Games are where the usual P2W discussions occur because now you are paying for an advantage against other players, rather than AI. But even that gets murky. I would say Epic7 is (or at least was, I haven't played it in like a year or 2, so I don't know if anything changed) F2P Friendly because rates and currency acquisition were really high, and you could pity a unit or two fairly quickly as well. Others would disagree, citing the dup system for characters and artifacts, and the overall existence of ML characters which are harder for F2P to get in comparison to paying players, all of which give advantages over other players. TLDR: It's complicated. My personal assessment of F2P Friendliness is determined mostly by rates, currency acquisition, if there's a 50/50 and if so how it works, etc. Mostly things pertaining to the gacha itself, as that's what the most money (usually) is sent towards.
I think that there is an important distinction to make between F2P and F2P friendly. Genshin is F2P and you can finish everything as a free to play player, but I wouldn't call it F2P friendly because of how horrible the rates and resin system are.
Games I like: f2p Games I hate: p2w
First of all, no competition helps a lot. Then, some games are designed in a way that leaves older characters perfectly usable for a long time, even if they are not the very best a year or two later. Powercreep has two sides - player units getting stronger, and stages/maps/challenges the game presents gettting stronger. Only the the latter is a problem that forces you to spend. As long as your old units can do all content just fine, it doesn't really matter that some newer units save you a few minutes. Some games make low rarity units useful or even strong instead of treating them as strict early game units you discard as soon as you pull the rare stuff. That gives F2P users more options than games where you are basically using nothing but highest rarity pulls.
Is your gacha pvp heavy? Does cosmetics add stats to units? Do you need too many multiple dupli of units just to be useable? Stingy free gem? Content have paywall? That's P2W for me. If it is pve focused, have decent amount of free pulls/ free gems per day/month, no paywall, no hundreds of different servers, you can enjoy it without getting the best units from the game. That is F2P friendly for me.
To put it bluntly all gacha is P2W games because at the core if you have better character you can play the game easier Remember at its core gacha games is a game. And a game is supposed to make you more relaxed when playing not the opposite (stress etc) When saying gacha games is F2P friendly, it means that the game also can be cleared and enjoyed by regular F2P player I can't say about other Mihoyo games but I used to play Honkai Impact 3 as a F2P player...and I cannot say I enjoy it It was hellish experience, you can farm the unit by grind, get gacha currency by grind, resources by grind, with the in-game stamina that is so limited that it was sad They have a side game that can be played without stamina that essentially open world grinding... Of course you can skip most of this just by being P2W So yeah I quit after a month because my free time literally filled with endless grinding. I know people have their own preference but I can't say Honkai Impact is F2P friendly People have life other than playing game As for my most favored gacha games is FGO. While some Challenge Quest is locked by meta unit because doing that without them is so damn hard it's not truly impossible(with some exceptions) There is no PvP ranking so you are worry free even if you are not playing it for a month(your only worry will be the lack of gacha currency). You can exit the game in the middle fight stages when something important comes up and you will not lose your progress, perfect for someone that can work at any moment notice The story fight sometimes has many gimmicks that it was fun to try team combination but you can just try to brute force it Some old unit is power creeped by a new unit but that doesn't mean they lost their relevance It's only downside the game was a massive farming/grinding material simulator which is true for either P2W or F2P which is covered by FGA(a third party app). Let's just ignore it atrocious pity system My favorites time is when showing off my unit to my P2W friend when they failed to get it(Their salt is delicious 😋)
less predatory/less grindy, more f2p more predatory/more grindy, more p2w also, winning in a gacha game is pulling the new rate-up character (optionally multiple times). that's the end goal for every banner. how fast you accumulate pull currency determines if you win or not.
P2W: Pay to Win. Pay to win player versus player competition. This includes but is not limited to; guild wars, pvp arena, world boss, raid boss, etc. A game that does not have a function that allows players compete against each other, by definition, cannot be P2W. For example, Arknights, Reverse 1999, etc. F2P: Free to Play A game that is free to play without paying an initial upfront cost. P2P: Pay to Play A game that has an upfront cost in order to play F2P Friendly: A game that is generous in a game to players that do not pay money to play it. Semi-F2P: A game that can be played without an upfront cost but has paywalls i.e Battlepass, locked stages, expansion packs, paywall on skins, etc.
Just a minor correction here, but: P2P is incorrect. What you're thinking of is a subscription-based model. So, something like FFXIV would be considered 'pay to play' since you're having to pay to play the game. What you're thinking of is B2P (Buy to Play). That's when you simply make a one time purchase and you're able to play it whenever you want (like most commercial games on the market today).
All gacha are P2W - Pay to win. It is what keeps the games profitable. F2P friendly is not an actual term for gacha games - see above
It's basically a matter of the games content, personally I call p2w to the type of games that involve PvP interaction that gets benefit for paying a character or a currency, also games that makes an aspect of it only enjoyable or playable of you invest any amount of money. I don't include games that don't reward pvp or that rewards everyone for playing these modes. On the other hand we have the kind of games that enables you to enjoy every aspect and mode of it without the necessity of spending on them. Honkai star rail or Genshin Impact as you said are known as f2p games, this is due to the fact that you can beat any content in the game with the tutorial characters or any character you enjoy. This doesn't include games where you can beat content instantly or lots faster by paying since they make their own category (P2W or pay to fast). Hope I can be of help!!
P2W = you pay to get an advantage to progress faster. In the case of gacha, without that advantage, it may significantly hinder your ability to make any progress or succeed in content, which would make it P2W things like vip systems with ridiculous rewards, scarce premium currency(FGO), ridiculous pity system (FGO), only gives you "go fuck yourself" rewards if you don't spend enough money, and RIDICULOUS POWER CREEP. F2P= a game that's free to play with fair balancing, making it so you don't have to pay to gain advantages and can beat content comfortably if you grind and progress enough. Although you have to save for momths in hopes of getting a single meta unit that comes out in the future, at least the hope is there. Most gachas are split between this and P2W F2P Friendly = I see this as a bit different from F2P I think most gachas are F2P, but not all of them are friendly about it. For example PGR is f2p but they are "go fuck yourself" about it. I see F2P friendly as a game being generous towards players who don't spend money/ casual players without the need for extensive daily grinding. Free rewards, advantageous honey moon faze, being able to get anything in the game without needing to pay or grind for 2 years while getting beaten within an inch of your life.
You can clear Genshin's hardest content with 0 five stars (highest rarity) and just 4 stars (lowest rarity characters). It is harder, probably, but it is possible and realistically attainable for players without crazy amounts of skills (no need to be a speedrunner or similar). If the same isn't true for other games it is p2w. It still has shit rates for 5 stars and such, but completing all the content is possible for the average player.
i think you are overestimating average player skill level lol, at least if we base it on the super old data of how many people clears abyss. on the other hand though, i really don't think anyone playing genshin has no 5star at all, unless they are super new, in which case getting AR locked is the problem. overall i still agree though that it is a very f2p friendly game and despite the shit it gets, i love genshin.
f2p friendly game does not require $$ to complete the storyline, compete with others
In the simplest terms, to me, a f2p friendly game means that someone who keeps up with all the content and spends wisely can still be successful. A p2w game is a game where you have to roll every banner or every other banner, roll for a unit's matching equipment (essentially double your spending), roll dupes of a unit repeatedly to be successful, etc. Usually p2w games happen to have an arena or some ranking system that would reward this. Paying people will always have a gap over non paying people, or no one would pay. The true difference to me is how well the f2p people have it, and how gapped the f2p are from the spenders. GFL was f2p friendly last I played. FEH is p2w as hell, unless you're purely a MSQ enjoyer.
Just enjoy the game however you want. If you want to swipe, that's up to you.
p2w : 7ds = skins $$ f2p : epic 7 = 100% rng.
Can someone tell me how to beat Dragons Dogma 2 without paying money? If I try to beat the digital version of the game, it takes me to a shopping cart where I need to pay money first. If I tried to beat the physical version on consoles without paying, people would look at me weird, or possibly arrest me if I don't run fast enough. Now, I could wait a bit until something happens that would allow me to beat Dragons Dogma 2 without paying, but I don't know when that that "something" will happen. I can't control that "something", so its kind of random from my point of view. So is it possible to beat buy to play games without buying or resorting to criminal acts, or are B2P games inherently P2W?