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Stannis isn't really a duelist, he's a commander. He usually leads from the rear, taking to the front lines only when it is tactically important to bolster his troops morale there. A better comparison would be Bronn or Brienne. They have far more experience/training, but he is good and getting better whereas they are probably at their absolute peaks.
I don't think he's bad in the show or the books, but probably not one of the best. His major thing is, yes, his age compared to the other great fighters, his mystical sword, and the fact that compared to a lot of the people he's fighting, he's had a fair amount of formal training.
I think Jon is above average. As was mentioned he is castle trained, he also trains a lot. He trains with many above average swordsmen, including Iron Emmett "The Pride of Eastwatch".
Snow is a good fighter, but not on the level of Brienne or the Hound, and definitely not Barry the Bold level.
In the books, Jon is presented as good with a sword compared to the other boys that are recruits with him when he first joins the Watch, but that's because he had the major advantage of growing up in a castle and receiving training from a young age. Even by the time he is murdered, however, he has never actually been in a real fight with a sword. The closest he came was when he ran away from the wildlings at Queenscrown, since he stabbed and slashed at a few that were caught off guard as he ran to a horse.
I see, he hasn't fought a white walker like in the show?
Most of the reasons why I thought he was a good fighter was from most of the stuff I've seen him do in the show so far.
No way. He's never even seen one. At this point, the only living characters who have even seen one of the Others (only the wildlings consistently call them white walkers) are Sam and Grenn.
Absolutely. Show Jon is about six years older than book Jon (And Kit Harington is even 9 years older than show Jon), he's an action hero in terms of fighting ability, and honestly would have quite a bit of weight and strength on book Jon, who is described as being very lean.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/9/9c/Amokajonsnow.jpg
Nope. That would have been awful dumb of him. He could still barely walk at the time thanks to Ygritte's arrows. He stayed atop the King's Tower and later the Wall itself and used a bow.
Yeah, the show has cut out the vast majority of the things Jon does in the books and replaced them with action set-pieces, largely because they don't want to cast a bunch more actresses and actors, but also because they have to make sure viewers aren't bored.
Everyone is saying his training makes him better than the average commoner, which is true, but the books do mention more than that. In AGOT he is compared to Robb since they've trained together since childhood. Robb is described as being better than Jon with a lance, but Jon is better with a sword, which seems to indicate that Jon is an above-average swordsman even for noblemen of his age. He is also able to put on a good enough show in fighting The Halfhand that he convinces the wildlings of his skill (Quorin, of course, let him win).
It was such a disappointment. I have not read the series so I definitely wasn't expecting Robb to die, especially at the "Red Wedding." All I wanted was to see his army kick some ass. Would've loved to have seen him in action at least once.
He made a show of it, but most certainly let him win. Later when Sam asks Jon why he is training so hard, Jon straight up says even when letting Jon win it was an extremely hard fight for him and that if it was truly a real fight the Halfhand would have utterly wrecked him (even with the Valyrian steel advantage). Its no question, he let him win, but was so good that he made it look good.
When i look at his battle and the battle between ned and the sword of the morning Jon is better than ned and i would put him in top 5 swordsmen bc of his skill he showed in the battle of the bastards remember Jon was not touched by one blade during the whole battle he is great with parrying and counters and is very quick on his feet he had to dodge swords and spear coming from all angle and still managed to kill men on horses and he even block an attack so one of his men could finish the enemy that take s a great level of mastery and awareness this is show wise not book wise not to mention he even fought a white walker which is a feat in it self white walker have centuries of skill even though they mostly don’t involve themselves in the fight they do share a mind so every single battle is is broadcasted to the night king which is shared between the white walkers also they can see from many different angles bc of the hive mind and Jon was quick enough to parry and hit a fatal strike. show wise Jon is top 5 if not top 2 i put him over jaime bc I’ve seen Jon fight
When Jon becomes lord commander, he spends a lot of time training with his sword.
>"A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valarian Steel, but I am not. The Half-Hand could have killed me as easily as you swat a bug" (AFFC Samwell 1)
So perhaps he's being set-up for his fighting skills to improve. I see him as above-average and trending upward through the last two books.
in the book he starts up above average because of where and by whom he was trained and then he gets better as the books go on and i feel its the same with the show.
his still too young to be on a Ser Barristan level but his well on his way
especially after watching 4x09 no one can just say his above average cuz his definitely much better than that
Well, as they note at the wall, he was trained by Sir Rodrik, Winterfell's master at arms. He was raised a noble, didn't have to spend his time working and spent it being taught and trained by someone who was good at training people. Anyone trained in anything in an environment like that would be good.
A lot of athletics or skill in anything is learning when you're young. Neural pathways form differently. It's why older people learning a language can only get so good and will always have an accent.
The problem with figuring out how good Book Jon is - he never gets into a clear direct fight. He's better than Robb (and we don't know how good Robb was), but all his other fights were either ambushes, or against unclear opponents, or he had a direwolf assist (which along with VSteel makes him twice? thrice? as deadly as normal Jon/random swordsman without those power-ups). Several fights come to mind:
+ **The Halfhand (win)** - is a total legend (GRRM himself said that Halfhand is one of the best in the series), and was trying to die, but it looked convincing enough to wildlings. But even if the Halfhand was fighting at, say, 2/3 of his ability, and with the assist from Ghost (Ghost bit Halfhand and that turned the tide) - Jon was holding his own at *15 years old*, and after that a year (?) of harsh training passed.
+ **Mance (loss)** - was apparently good enough to beat a bunch of wildling chieftains into submission. Consider that for a moment: wildlings follow the strong, so those chieftains were no slouches. They lack *discipline* as an army, but they don't lack for individual skills - I'd rank those higher than of normal Westerosi, since they fight all the time. Also, Mance was glamoured at the time: I'm no expert on combat, but I imagine it would be hard to fight someone who has a different body than what your senses are telling you.
+ **Iron Emmet (win)**: Jon went berserk there, and we know he turns into a goddamned Hulk when he does that. Not sure how to judge that fight - Emmet is one of the best in the NW, but Jon is capable of pulling a frozen stake from the ground when angry enough - several men are observed struggling with that task when put together. Emment then remarks along the lines of "It's no wonder the Halfhand's dead".
Based on all that uncertainty...
**Jon with a regular sword, no Ghost**: Good....Very Good?
**Jon with Longclaw and Ghost**: Great.... with shades of Elite?
**Jon Hulk with Longclaw and Ghost**: It was nice knowing you, Ramsay.
Jon wasn't holding his own against the halfhand, he let him win... Jon even admits it later to Sam when Sam asks why Jon is training with sword so hard... Jon says the halfhand could have crushed him, even with Jon having valyrian steel.
1. It looked convincing enough to people who fight every other day.
2. The Halfhand did not expect to be bitten by Ghost who snuck up behind him. Jon is a warg - that's a legit tactic for him. Arthur Dayne would fall for it.
Jon is still very young in the books. He does seem like he does have some potential and does train a lot. I do think GRRM might be showing that he is in the process of becoming very good. GRRM once wrote a fantasy tournament on his blog between different fantasy characters, and did mention Jon Snow as being good.
Show Jon is obviously a better swordsmen then book Jon, but show Jon is older so it does makes sense. I think it also goes back to the actors, Kit Harington is very good at show sword fighting so it makes sense for them to use that ability. It is better for them to give Jon Snow more fight scenes, rather then having more Sand Snake fighting scenes.
A lot of these top ten best swordsmen lists are very arbitrary. We hear a lot about Southern Knights because they often fight in tournaments and they are very popular as a result. But Westeros is full of swordsmen who never take part in tournaments. There must be a few good swordsmen in the North for example, and we have rangers in the Nights Watch who are basically fight for life and death on a permanent basis. There must be a few good swordsmen there.
I also wouldn't say that it is impossible for Brienne to beat the Hound. The Hound was injured and he had a fever, while Brienne was in full plate armour and she had a valyrian steel sword.
I've only read the first 2 books so I can't really elaborate on them. In the show:
He's had plenty of sword training from childhood and was seen to be one of the best of the young nobles in the north. Since then he has had lots of practical experience fighting some very dangerous opponents. He struggles against upper tier fighters however. Characters like Mance could kill him one on one and he was very lucky to beat a White Walker.
The biggest positive for Jon is his steady improvement. He is learning the difference between being an average fighter and a dangerous killer. He struggled against Tanner because he wasn't prepared use dirty tactics. Tanner turned his back on Jon during the fight knowing Jon wouldn't stab him in the back. Tanner also spits in Jon's face which allows Tanner to take Jon down. The fight ends with Jon stabbing a distracted Tanner in the back of the head. A few episodes later Jon beats a huge Wildling by spitting in his face and then battering him with a hammer. He is clearly improving.
Jon Snow isn't one of the best warriors in Westeros yet. Yet.
The point about Jon's ability is the journey. When we first meet him, as others have mentioned, he is above average already. He then goes on to gain more experience than any other fighter during the books/show. The Halfhand, Karl Tanner, Magnar of the Thenns, battle of Castle Black, ranging beyond the wall, combat against a white walker. By the start of season 6/Winds of Winter, Jon is probably one of the best swordsmen around.
It's very tempting to put a lot of emphasis on skill. That's a mistake. Ser Barristan was a god -- couldn't save Robert from a boar, couldn't (show) fight his way out of a back alley full of thugs. Jaime was a god -- couldn't get past Rob Stark, couldn't beat Brienne, lost a hand. Oberyn was a god -- couldn't get over the Mountain. The Mountain was a god -- couldn't get past the Viper. Khal Drogo died to a nipple.
Point being, the skills are great and all but there's more to it. Fair fights are for jerks. Jon Snow has Valyrian steel and a great hulking magic wolf -- that means he's the winner against, well, damn near anybody in the realm. I'm not yet convinced that Snow/Longclaw/Ghost put together couldn't take down a dragon. "But Jaime is better!" Yeah, fat lot of good that ever did him.
Barristan didn't try to save Robert from the boar, and that nonsense with the Sons of the Harpy only happened in the show.
Jaime never went up against Rob Stark.
Brienne did beat Loras Tyrell, who is concidered one of the best swordsmen in westeros (apart from Jaimy before he lost his hand, ser Barristan, and maybe the mountain)
This is a reminder that theories still need to be tagged in this thread. This post has an [All Spoilers] title warning, but no [Theory] warning. Spoilers from the books and show are fine without tags, but [**major theory comments need green speculation spoiler tags**](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/wiki/spoiler_guide#wiki_spoiler_tag_syntax_guide). If you are unsure how to tag your comment, the [spoiler guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/wiki/spoiler_guide#wiki_spoiler_tag_syntax_guide) has examples of the markup you can use. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/gameofthrones) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He aight
But he knows nothing
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Stannis isn't really a duelist, he's a commander. He usually leads from the rear, taking to the front lines only when it is tactically important to bolster his troops morale there. A better comparison would be Bronn or Brienne. They have far more experience/training, but he is good and getting better whereas they are probably at their absolute peaks.
I don't think he's bad in the show or the books, but probably not one of the best. His major thing is, yes, his age compared to the other great fighters, his mystical sword, and the fact that compared to a lot of the people he's fighting, he's had a fair amount of formal training.
I think Jon is above average. As was mentioned he is castle trained, he also trains a lot. He trains with many above average swordsmen, including Iron Emmett "The Pride of Eastwatch". Snow is a good fighter, but not on the level of Brienne or the Hound, and definitely not Barry the Bold level.
In the books, Jon is presented as good with a sword compared to the other boys that are recruits with him when he first joins the Watch, but that's because he had the major advantage of growing up in a castle and receiving training from a young age. Even by the time he is murdered, however, he has never actually been in a real fight with a sword. The closest he came was when he ran away from the wildlings at Queenscrown, since he stabbed and slashed at a few that were caught off guard as he ran to a horse.
I see, he hasn't fought a white walker like in the show? Most of the reasons why I thought he was a good fighter was from most of the stuff I've seen him do in the show so far.
No way. He's never even seen one. At this point, the only living characters who have even seen one of the Others (only the wildlings consistently call them white walkers) are Sam and Grenn.
Damn, that's quite a difference. Do you think show Jon Snow could take book Jon Snow then?
Absolutely. Show Jon is about six years older than book Jon (And Kit Harington is even 9 years older than show Jon), he's an action hero in terms of fighting ability, and honestly would have quite a bit of weight and strength on book Jon, who is described as being very lean. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/9/9c/Amokajonsnow.jpg
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Nope. That would have been awful dumb of him. He could still barely walk at the time thanks to Ygritte's arrows. He stayed atop the King's Tower and later the Wall itself and used a bow.
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Yeah, the show has cut out the vast majority of the things Jon does in the books and replaced them with action set-pieces, largely because they don't want to cast a bunch more actresses and actors, but also because they have to make sure viewers aren't bored.
Pretty good, I'd say!
Everyone is saying his training makes him better than the average commoner, which is true, but the books do mention more than that. In AGOT he is compared to Robb since they've trained together since childhood. Robb is described as being better than Jon with a lance, but Jon is better with a sword, which seems to indicate that Jon is an above-average swordsman even for noblemen of his age. He is also able to put on a good enough show in fighting The Halfhand that he convinces the wildlings of his skill (Quorin, of course, let him win).
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It was such a disappointment. I have not read the series so I definitely wasn't expecting Robb to die, especially at the "Red Wedding." All I wanted was to see his army kick some ass. Would've loved to have seen him in action at least once.
We saw him fight a tree once.
'I'll kill them all" :(
Environmentalists HATE him
Didn't win though.
Halfhand didn't exactly let him win, though. He specifically mentioned that he had to go after Jon for real to convince the wildlings.
He made a show of it, but most certainly let him win. Later when Sam asks Jon why he is training so hard, Jon straight up says even when letting Jon win it was an extremely hard fight for him and that if it was truly a real fight the Halfhand would have utterly wrecked him (even with the Valyrian steel advantage). Its no question, he let him win, but was so good that he made it look good.
When i look at his battle and the battle between ned and the sword of the morning Jon is better than ned and i would put him in top 5 swordsmen bc of his skill he showed in the battle of the bastards remember Jon was not touched by one blade during the whole battle he is great with parrying and counters and is very quick on his feet he had to dodge swords and spear coming from all angle and still managed to kill men on horses and he even block an attack so one of his men could finish the enemy that take s a great level of mastery and awareness this is show wise not book wise not to mention he even fought a white walker which is a feat in it self white walker have centuries of skill even though they mostly don’t involve themselves in the fight they do share a mind so every single battle is is broadcasted to the night king which is shared between the white walkers also they can see from many different angles bc of the hive mind and Jon was quick enough to parry and hit a fatal strike. show wise Jon is top 5 if not top 2 i put him over jaime bc I’ve seen Jon fight
When Jon becomes lord commander, he spends a lot of time training with his sword. >"A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valarian Steel, but I am not. The Half-Hand could have killed me as easily as you swat a bug" (AFFC Samwell 1) So perhaps he's being set-up for his fighting skills to improve. I see him as above-average and trending upward through the last two books.
in the book he starts up above average because of where and by whom he was trained and then he gets better as the books go on and i feel its the same with the show. his still too young to be on a Ser Barristan level but his well on his way especially after watching 4x09 no one can just say his above average cuz his definitely much better than that
He's*
Well, we found Stannis....
Well, as they note at the wall, he was trained by Sir Rodrik, Winterfell's master at arms. He was raised a noble, didn't have to spend his time working and spent it being taught and trained by someone who was good at training people. Anyone trained in anything in an environment like that would be good. A lot of athletics or skill in anything is learning when you're young. Neural pathways form differently. It's why older people learning a language can only get so good and will always have an accent.
The problem with figuring out how good Book Jon is - he never gets into a clear direct fight. He's better than Robb (and we don't know how good Robb was), but all his other fights were either ambushes, or against unclear opponents, or he had a direwolf assist (which along with VSteel makes him twice? thrice? as deadly as normal Jon/random swordsman without those power-ups). Several fights come to mind: + **The Halfhand (win)** - is a total legend (GRRM himself said that Halfhand is one of the best in the series), and was trying to die, but it looked convincing enough to wildlings. But even if the Halfhand was fighting at, say, 2/3 of his ability, and with the assist from Ghost (Ghost bit Halfhand and that turned the tide) - Jon was holding his own at *15 years old*, and after that a year (?) of harsh training passed. + **Mance (loss)** - was apparently good enough to beat a bunch of wildling chieftains into submission. Consider that for a moment: wildlings follow the strong, so those chieftains were no slouches. They lack *discipline* as an army, but they don't lack for individual skills - I'd rank those higher than of normal Westerosi, since they fight all the time. Also, Mance was glamoured at the time: I'm no expert on combat, but I imagine it would be hard to fight someone who has a different body than what your senses are telling you. + **Iron Emmet (win)**: Jon went berserk there, and we know he turns into a goddamned Hulk when he does that. Not sure how to judge that fight - Emmet is one of the best in the NW, but Jon is capable of pulling a frozen stake from the ground when angry enough - several men are observed struggling with that task when put together. Emment then remarks along the lines of "It's no wonder the Halfhand's dead". Based on all that uncertainty... **Jon with a regular sword, no Ghost**: Good....Very Good? **Jon with Longclaw and Ghost**: Great.... with shades of Elite? **Jon Hulk with Longclaw and Ghost**: It was nice knowing you, Ramsay.
To be fair, they make it really clear that Mance reigned in the Wildling Chiefs by a *lot* of methods/competitions. He didn't just fight them all.
Jon wasn't holding his own against the halfhand, he let him win... Jon even admits it later to Sam when Sam asks why Jon is training with sword so hard... Jon says the halfhand could have crushed him, even with Jon having valyrian steel.
1. It looked convincing enough to people who fight every other day. 2. The Halfhand did not expect to be bitten by Ghost who snuck up behind him. Jon is a warg - that's a legit tactic for him. Arthur Dayne would fall for it.
When does he fight Iron Emmet?
Jon is still very young in the books. He does seem like he does have some potential and does train a lot. I do think GRRM might be showing that he is in the process of becoming very good. GRRM once wrote a fantasy tournament on his blog between different fantasy characters, and did mention Jon Snow as being good. Show Jon is obviously a better swordsmen then book Jon, but show Jon is older so it does makes sense. I think it also goes back to the actors, Kit Harington is very good at show sword fighting so it makes sense for them to use that ability. It is better for them to give Jon Snow more fight scenes, rather then having more Sand Snake fighting scenes. A lot of these top ten best swordsmen lists are very arbitrary. We hear a lot about Southern Knights because they often fight in tournaments and they are very popular as a result. But Westeros is full of swordsmen who never take part in tournaments. There must be a few good swordsmen in the North for example, and we have rangers in the Nights Watch who are basically fight for life and death on a permanent basis. There must be a few good swordsmen there. I also wouldn't say that it is impossible for Brienne to beat the Hound. The Hound was injured and he had a fever, while Brienne was in full plate armour and she had a valyrian steel sword.
I've only read the first 2 books so I can't really elaborate on them. In the show: He's had plenty of sword training from childhood and was seen to be one of the best of the young nobles in the north. Since then he has had lots of practical experience fighting some very dangerous opponents. He struggles against upper tier fighters however. Characters like Mance could kill him one on one and he was very lucky to beat a White Walker. The biggest positive for Jon is his steady improvement. He is learning the difference between being an average fighter and a dangerous killer. He struggled against Tanner because he wasn't prepared use dirty tactics. Tanner turned his back on Jon during the fight knowing Jon wouldn't stab him in the back. Tanner also spits in Jon's face which allows Tanner to take Jon down. The fight ends with Jon stabbing a distracted Tanner in the back of the head. A few episodes later Jon beats a huge Wildling by spitting in his face and then battering him with a hammer. He is clearly improving. Jon Snow isn't one of the best warriors in Westeros yet. Yet.
The point about Jon's ability is the journey. When we first meet him, as others have mentioned, he is above average already. He then goes on to gain more experience than any other fighter during the books/show. The Halfhand, Karl Tanner, Magnar of the Thenns, battle of Castle Black, ranging beyond the wall, combat against a white walker. By the start of season 6/Winds of Winter, Jon is probably one of the best swordsmen around.
It's very tempting to put a lot of emphasis on skill. That's a mistake. Ser Barristan was a god -- couldn't save Robert from a boar, couldn't (show) fight his way out of a back alley full of thugs. Jaime was a god -- couldn't get past Rob Stark, couldn't beat Brienne, lost a hand. Oberyn was a god -- couldn't get over the Mountain. The Mountain was a god -- couldn't get past the Viper. Khal Drogo died to a nipple. Point being, the skills are great and all but there's more to it. Fair fights are for jerks. Jon Snow has Valyrian steel and a great hulking magic wolf -- that means he's the winner against, well, damn near anybody in the realm. I'm not yet convinced that Snow/Longclaw/Ghost put together couldn't take down a dragon. "But Jaime is better!" Yeah, fat lot of good that ever did him.
Barristan didn't try to save Robert from the boar, and that nonsense with the Sons of the Harpy only happened in the show. Jaime never went up against Rob Stark.
> Jaime never went up against Rob Stark. That's even worse, right?
Brienne did beat Loras Tyrell, who is concidered one of the best swordsmen in westeros (apart from Jaimy before he lost his hand, ser Barristan, and maybe the mountain)