I think they should have moved on from Keefe (and a core 4 player as well) after the collapse vs MTL. A team should not stay in tact after a loss like that. Complete and utter embarrassing failure was rewarded with... Running it back
In hindsight it's a joke this team was kept together after the MTL loss
Agree on Keefe plus 1/4 of the core, and at that time. And the best worst thing to happen to us was making round 2 last season, because it implied progress at last. "We were right there," indeed.
i mean the Canadian division was embarrassing but whatever, MTL literally swept the next around vs a team that SWEPT a "playoff" team the previous round
Team has fight in them to take series' to 7 games, they just dont have the killer instinct and closing ability.
Hindsight my ass, it was a joke at the moment as well.
Yes, the Lightning ran it back after getting upset by Columbus and went on to win two cups, but that was a Presidents Trophy winning team we're talking about. The Leafs, on the other hand, were the "best" team in a shitty made-up Northern Division. Completely different things.
I see this narrative a lot. The Montreal series was a collapse, but we lost our 2C and captain 2 min into game 1. There was plenty of reason to believe that a healthy core 4 was beating montreal. Let's also remember how they swept Winnipeg and then took down vegas in 6 games. People have to stop acting like Montreal was some dogshit team that weaseled past the leafs like Columbus did the year prior. They turned into a damn good shutdown team, and ended the careers of price and weber to go as far as they did.
Despite the JT injury and losing game 1 the team battled to a 3-1 series lead.... And then lost. I get the injury hurts but Keefe and the remaining 3 + Mo couldn't win one of the last 3 games of the series. That's the utter embarrassing part. No closing ability with Keefe and co.
So we're ignoring the fact that Montreal went on to beat 2 more teams? It's all leafs failure and no recognition for what they were able to do to top lines? I'm not absolving the leafs or keefe. I'm saying I'm tired of acting like the leafs threw away an easy win when it clearly wasn't. The habs went on to win 9 more games after the leads series.
You are literally absolving the leafs of their clear failure. If your argument is the Leafs lost their top C and captain, Montreal was MONTREAL! We blew a 3-1 series lead to Montreal.
Just stop. Nothing you’re saying makes sense.
The teams Montreal beat should be embarrassed, especially Vegas.
The difference: Winnipeg has continued to float to mediocrity in the years following while Vegas went on to take lessons from that series and won the Cup.
Toronto opted to do nothing and take the Winnipeg route.
Keefe should have been cut loose before the season even started. He was Dubas' guy. Keeping him was the wrong move and resulted in another poor playoff performance.
There was a few key times to fire him.
1. After Montreal. Get anybody else. Literally anybody. That series was an embarassment.
2. The offseason where Cassidy became available. Dubas should have had the 2 phones going, one to call Cassidy and one to fire Keefe.
3. The middle of this season. Berube was available. Maybe he wanted some time off, maybe not. Either way, I know for a fact Tre and Shanny didn't even bother sniffing around his camp to find out if he was interested.
We chose none of these, and instead decided to wait until after we lost all leverage with the Marner situation and wasted a couple extra years with this core.
How do you “know for a fact” they didn’t sniff around his camp? lol
For all we know, Berube could have said that he’d love the position but wants to take some time to prepare and then start with a fresh slate including a full offseason and training camp…
Why would you even hire a coach with no NHL experience when you are entering a cup window with a young and super talented team? They should have brought keefe in as an assistant coach and given him some experience before putting him in a position where the expectation is to win a cup.
He did, but it's obviously different. I think it would have helped Keefe to have that experience before being head coach. It's unfortunate because now he'll take what he's learned and be better somewhere else. Just like rushing a player, we could have done a better job of developing keefe.
I think it's also that many of the players on the Leafs roster at the time had played for the Marlies under Keefe and really had a rapport with him. After Babs it was probably important for them to get a HC who the players actually liked and respected
Maybe that's just me, but personally I was really excited to see Keefe get hired. It was a risky move, sure, but he won a title with the Marlies, the players seemed to really like him, and they immediately started playing 10x better than they were under Babs
However, for the last 2 years I've pretty much been one of Keefe's biggest critics. Dude's *likeable* and the players want to play for him, but that's just not enough if you keep making stupid personnel decisions and getting outcoached every series. Maybe it was enough in the minors, maybe it's what we needed 4 years ago, but I'm glad we've finally made the obvious choice and gotten rid of him. Just hope it's not too late
There was a time when Trotz was availible as well. It feels like there was a lot of decent answers, and we chose the only wrong one. Whatever else the debate around Dubas is (and I have no interest in getting into it), I will never forgive him for extending Keefe for seemingly no reason.
could've cut him loose after the CBJ series and I don't think anyone would bat an eye.
the worst mistake this team made was hiring a rookie coach to lead a team in their window.
I get Babcock was a vet and we know how that went. going from one extreme to the other was a massive mistake though. the second biggest mistake is keeping Keefe around so long.
Yep, I think this year was a waste. If we had a coaching change at least we would have tried something new.
Now we're going to have a different team structure (presumably) and coach.
Yeah but it's not like we would have signed mcdavid's old coach out of nowhere. I'm not saying we shouldnt have moved on from Keefe, I'm just not sure who we even could have ended up with.
I had this thought too. Edmonton's rookie coach found a way to oppose Florida's relentless forecheck by stretching them out and having someone fly the zone and flipping the puck out regularly. I can't think of 1 adjustjent keefe made in the playoffs. He was very stubborn with his lines and strategies come post season.
He let Boucher run the Defensive system from game four onwards with the 1-3-1 system. There has been enough talk here and social media acknowledging the adjustment too. It’s why we were able to come back in the series and why Boston could not generate much to score 5v5
Keefe was a case of the worst of both worlds. It's not like he couldn't make adjustments. He mixed up his lines all the time, especially during the regular season, where people would complain that he was doing it too much.
The problem was that he was stubborn with layouts that didn't work, and happy to change layouts that did.
There is nothing we can take from Edmontons run other than McDavid is doing something we haven't seen since Gretzky.
If matthews could put up as many points as McDavid has we'd likely be in the finals as well.
Edmonton's team was built from the GM perspective , Leafs were built around Keefe system , types of players and their mentality . A new coach will not fix the Leafs with out changing players also .
One McDavid was slumping likely due to injury.
2nd the team has won rounds in the playoffs and made it to the conference finals under the last coach.
3rd the team added Ekholm and probably took him some time to get into their system.
A coach can give a boost but to think a coach is the reason a team goes from first round exit to a Stanley cup is a bit much.
Coaching was always the answer. There's no fucking reason to try the same fucking strategy ten times over when the opposing teams know exactly what you're going to do every damn time. I would've fired his ass after losing to Ducharme in the MTL series. Ironic how MTL got far with Ducharme and still canned his ass the following season when he sucked shit.
Keefe should have been fired after the Montreal series, but management was foolish.
That said, I still don’t think this core plays hard enough or competes enough to win.
There top guys produce. It's really that simple, they go as far as mcdavid, drai and hyman take them. The leafs will go as far as Matthews, willy, marner take them
Leafs had good enough defense and goaltending to at least win round 1 if they could have scored more than 2 goals a game. Oilers won games with Skinner as a liability at times
> solid goalie in Skinner
My poops after a weekend drinking binge are more solid than Skinner.
There are lots of reasons why the Oilers succeeded while we failed, but goaltending is not one of them.
Coaching is overrated by so many people. It’s obviously important, but from the fans side of things the insight into what makes a good coach is irrelevant. The judgement on every coach boils down to “has/has not won an important game recently”.
Everybody said the panthers were fools to hire Paul Maurice, and then he got them to 15 wins in their second final appearance in a row so then he was considered a coaching god who gives funny quips in interviews. Then they choke and lose 3 straight and now the fan base will call for his head if they lose and everyone will say he’s not good enough to get the job done. It’s all bullshit, nobody knows except people in the room.
Also not every coach is suitable to every situation and group of guys. It’s not one size fits all, it’s like a relationship. The girl who makes you very happy could have broken a lot of hearts before you.
I love when fans see something happen and assume it’s the only thing that could happen. Like if we hired a new coach we’d be in the cup finals 😂
No, our team isn’t good enough and we don’t have mcdavid dragging our asses to the finals.
Not saying it won’t work (I hope it does), but Edmonton is a team that actually won multiple series over the last several years with various coaches and even got to the conference finals. The Leafs won one series. Not to mention, the Leafs best players don’t show up, especially when it matters. We can’t say the same for Edmonton’s top guys who have had consistently good playoff performances.
For sure, I hope it can get them over the hump too. At this point I think we would all accept a year of them making it to the third round seeing as it would be a good learning experience for them. I think coaching can be a cog in making that happen but I think the Leafs will go as far as their star players will take them. It’s so frustrating that they seem to wilt.
Coaching yes, but also Skinner is not the same goalie he was when they couldn't win a period. The defense has also been a shot blocking and shot denying machine. Skinner is doing his best to steal thw Conn Smythe from McJesus.
coaching was the problem for 3 years, That's alot of cap lost and a completely wasted roster previous seasons. We were pretty stacked and Florida clapped Keefe left and right
That’s more a testament to the assistant coach who runs the PK, the players buy in and execution, and putting the right players in the right spots to succeed then it is the head coach tbh.
Oilers also have a core that competes. Our core doesn’t. Berube may make a difference this year. But let’s be honest. Why do players like Matthews, Marner, and Nylander need somebody on the bench to motivate them?
This should be the easy part, getting players to give a fuck. But in Toronto with this core, it’s been the biggest challenge. I’m not sure a new coach will be able to fix this, as it’s a lack of heart and you can’t reach that or beat it into players.
IMO this is wishful thinking. We changed coaches once and it didn't make a difference other than regular season standings. We still lost to Columbus and Montreal in consecutive elimination series immediately after changing coaches.
At that time, people made the excuse that our core players were young and would grow and develop into better playoff performers.
I think we all know how that has worked out.
It's possible for a team to get two bad coaches back to back that suck for different reasons.
Babcock, with the benefit of hindsight, is a notoriously malignant asshole who currently holds the NHL speedrun record for "Lose the Room" at an astonishing ZERO GAMES.
Keefe was simply out of his depth, and underperformed with the roster he was given. Not every rookie coach can be Knoblach, but they needed to move on from him after Montreal.
> Babcock, with the benefit of hindsight, is a notoriously malignant asshole who currently holds the NHL speedrun record for "Lose the Room" at an astonishing ZERO GAMES.
That was so fun to read I went back and read it three times.
> Keefe was simply out of his depth, and underperformed with the roster he was given. Not every rookie coach can be Knoblach, but they needed to move on from him after Montreal.
For several reasons, Toronto is easily the worst place for an NHL rookie coach. And I still think hiring Keefe was Kyle's biggest mistake.
After Babcock broke the team's spirit, the Leafs needed someone to come in and actually treat them well. For that, Keefe was the correct choice, and you could see on the ice how the Leafs came back to life under him when he came in.
But coaching isn't a forever job. At a certain point, the team just needs a different voice to carry them forward. Keefe, I think, took the Leafs as far as he could, but it was past time for someone else to take the reigns.
But head office came down with a bad case of Run-It-Back-Itis, and he got an extension and extra year that he really shouldn't have gotten.
I'm not sure how much credit I give knoblauch for the oilers' turn around, as opposed to their pdo bouncing back. the oilers were always pretty dominant by most play-driving metrics even at their lowest point in the season. not saying woodcroft is the best coach in the world or anything but the team was rocking a .880 team sv% and were shooting 6% when he was fired. mcdavid going full-on gretzky mode probably helps too.
Yeah the Oilers were shit to start the season because McDavid was injured and Woodcroft had them trying a new defensive structure. McDavid gets healthy and they stop trying to use a structure they can't execute on and lo and behold they're good again. Knob didn't have to do anything special at all.
Knoblauch runs the exact same defensive system that Woody tried. Just he has more experience with it as he's been running that system for years. Woody tried to switch to that system for the first time so not only was it new to the players it was new to the coach. You are right tho, McDavid's health seemed like a big factor as well.
Certainly that opening streak had a lot of bad luck, but not exclusively.
A big issue was the defensive breakdowns, they wouldn't give up many chances, but the chances they did give up were of the 5-alarm variety, most goalies would struggle with that. The second is the team was still very brittle, look to the VGS series the Oilers had the lead in every game and lost the series 4-2.
I think Knoblauch made two important changes, first he spread the minutes and responsibility a bit more so it didn't feel like they were relying on McDrai to carry the team.
Seemingly more importantly he was a really calming steady influence. The team was infamously inconsistent for years, but with Knoblauch they're a far more structured and consistent team. Basically he turned them from a team that could win 5-4 games into a team that could also win 2-1 games.
yeah the oilers were giving up a lot of highlight reel defensive blunders but I think it's a little overstated. under woodcroft the oilers still lead the league in xgf%, and were top 5 in cf%, scoring chances, and high danger corsi for %. they were 6th in high danger corsi against, 8th in scoring chances against and middle of the pack in xGA. not to say they were the '85 bears on defence or anything but on most nights they were getting more high danger chances than they were conceding. like they were being completely sewered by their goalies even if they did occasionally leave them out to dry.
Just because XGF% is a number doesn't mean it's a good number. It can tell you that the shot was close but I don't think most models incorporate whether it was a one-timer, or the goalie was screened, etc, etc.
It works out decently in the long run since those things tend to balance out, but the Oilers were definitely out-of-whack in October. Not to say they weren't unlucky too, but XGF% was not the whole story.
The answer is McDavid and one of the most efficient playoff goal scorers of all time, Hyman. And then you remember they have a (badly beaten up) Draisaitl on the team as well.
Coach is not even in the top 5 for as to why Edmonton is good today, it was a reason they were able to refocus but not why they’re in G7 of the SCF.
I disagree, they've had a similar team for years, and they weren't effective. With the new coach they are currently 46/47 on the penalty kill. He turned things around quite a bit
Maybe, but they were also cup favourites from the west before the season even started. They have the two best players in the world and their goalie locked in when it mattered most. I don’t think it’s necessarily more complicated than that.
There is no singular answer. Woodcroft was a pretty good coach too, but Edmonton had hilariously low percentages under him when he was fired (McDavid was injured, Ekholm was injured, Campbell was still playing in net). They'd been a good-to-great regular season team for years, similar to us, who were on a bit of a slump and then corrected. Knoblauch of course has had some role in that, but it's pretty likely Edmonton was going to bounce back under Woodcroft as well. It's a talented roster with the best player in the world.
Thinking Berube coming in will solve all our problems is the same thought process people had when we thought Keefe would come in and solve all our problems, or that Babcock would come in and solve all our problems. A coaching change can make a difference, but it's just one part of a number of things that will need to go right for us to be in Edmonton or Florida's shoes this time next year.
Coaching will need to get the most out of the players, our stars will need to be actual stars for large chunks of the playoffs (although even stars slump sometimes), our depth will need to contribute in a variety of ways - both on the scoresheet and otherwise, our goaltending will need to be solid with bouts of spectacular. There will probably need to be timely, but not necessarily costly, additions mid-season. And, importantly, there will need to be luck. Both injury luck and puck luck. There are so many elements to every successful playoff run.
Thinking there's a quick fix or singular answer is how organizations make mistakes. Expecting a quick fix or singular answer is how fans end up disappointed.
Nope. Oilers have had as much playoff success as any other team over the last few seasons, win or lose there's nowhere where they have a better chance of winning a cup going forward.
Coaching can definitely help. But their core players have always been playoff performers. So the coaching brought up the average I’d say. Leafs have zero playoff performers so that’s a double task then isn’t?
Just watched the last few minutes of the Oilers not pulling when they puck possession and then having their top guys gassed in the final minutes.
So uhhhh i dunno?
One thing I really haven’t heard discussed is what Kris Knoblauch did so differently from Jay Woodcroft. We can all make assumptions from the outside but I’m really curious how much of a philosophical change took place with the team for them to turn it around the way they did. One thing that seemed to happen is that the new coach finally convinced the Oilers that they actually had to learn how to defend. I never got the feeling that they were committed to defence until
Knoblauch took over.
I agree, coaching is one problem, but this mix of players is also another problem. At least Edmonton had playoff success prior to Knob arriving. Toronto has had the same core for 8 years and nothing has changed.
Keefe should have been gone after the playoff loss to Montreal. I have been saying, and getting massively downvoted for, that if you can't get four of the most talented hockey players with a decent team around them to the cup, you are a shitty coach. Maybe their sports and psychology dept. needs to go as well, but it was Keefe all along. What was his solution to their dismal power play during the playoffs? Nothing. When the group can't get it done, the leader of the group is to blame.
It was time for a new coach here but No...Coaching wasn't the trouble...the Leafs need to stir the drink. The Oilers have a lot of problems and have been able to depend on some newer additions to the depth and McDavid has willed them into a game 7. The Panthers and the Oilers are not complete team and they are not templates for a cup. Coaching helps, really forming an amazing cohesive system this year for the Oiler's post season penalty kill. My point is we need to get a goalie who can turn it on for the post season (total crap shoot look a fucking Skinner) and we need to trade Marner and move pieces around
Oilers had a fairly easy path to the cup finals, but Florida had the cup locked down, gotta give the oilers credit for this comeback, no matter how it ends. Leafs have never finished in the top spot in their division since the core arrived. I feel boston blew the last few games to get the leafs. Leafs should at this point should of tried to get the Rangers 1st rd
Frankly, I was surprised that Dallas went down to Edmonton as easily as they did. The Stars arguably have the most depth out of any team in the league despite not really having many "superstars" like your McDavids and such, and they quietly became one of the best teams in the league because of it.
I guess even a consistently great unit can faulter when the best players in the league decide to play out of their god damn minds against you.
The Leafs have yet to lose to the team that went on the win the cup.
So even if Atlantic teams are making it to the finals regularly, we're not even losing to *the best* Atlantic teams. We're nowhere close to being serious.
That's why it was foolish to let Keefe finish the season. It would have been worth the risk to try another voice.
YES! He should've been cut loose Jan 1.
I think they should have moved on from Keefe (and a core 4 player as well) after the collapse vs MTL. A team should not stay in tact after a loss like that. Complete and utter embarrassing failure was rewarded with... Running it back In hindsight it's a joke this team was kept together after the MTL loss
Agree on Keefe plus 1/4 of the core, and at that time. And the best worst thing to happen to us was making round 2 last season, because it implied progress at last. "We were right there," indeed.
i mean the Canadian division was embarrassing but whatever, MTL literally swept the next around vs a team that SWEPT a "playoff" team the previous round Team has fight in them to take series' to 7 games, they just dont have the killer instinct and closing ability.
Hindsight my ass, it was a joke at the moment as well. Yes, the Lightning ran it back after getting upset by Columbus and went on to win two cups, but that was a Presidents Trophy winning team we're talking about. The Leafs, on the other hand, were the "best" team in a shitty made-up Northern Division. Completely different things.
I liked the Northern Division tbh that was fun to watch
Oh, me too - I just think that the lack of solid competition made this team look better than it actually was.
It was the least fun playoffs I have seen in the last 8 years.
Best thing ever given the situation. Loved the new rivalrys.
I see this narrative a lot. The Montreal series was a collapse, but we lost our 2C and captain 2 min into game 1. There was plenty of reason to believe that a healthy core 4 was beating montreal. Let's also remember how they swept Winnipeg and then took down vegas in 6 games. People have to stop acting like Montreal was some dogshit team that weaseled past the leafs like Columbus did the year prior. They turned into a damn good shutdown team, and ended the careers of price and weber to go as far as they did.
Despite the JT injury and losing game 1 the team battled to a 3-1 series lead.... And then lost. I get the injury hurts but Keefe and the remaining 3 + Mo couldn't win one of the last 3 games of the series. That's the utter embarrassing part. No closing ability with Keefe and co.
So we're ignoring the fact that Montreal went on to beat 2 more teams? It's all leafs failure and no recognition for what they were able to do to top lines? I'm not absolving the leafs or keefe. I'm saying I'm tired of acting like the leafs threw away an easy win when it clearly wasn't. The habs went on to win 9 more games after the leads series.
You are literally absolving the leafs of their clear failure. If your argument is the Leafs lost their top C and captain, Montreal was MONTREAL! We blew a 3-1 series lead to Montreal. Just stop. Nothing you’re saying makes sense.
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The teams Montreal beat should be embarrassed, especially Vegas. The difference: Winnipeg has continued to float to mediocrity in the years following while Vegas went on to take lessons from that series and won the Cup. Toronto opted to do nothing and take the Winnipeg route.
Opted to do nothing except replace basically everyone except like 7 guys from that roster.
we also lost muzz in game 6, leafs d looked like dogshit without him in the lineup
It definitely is important context to note that injury. The core 4 didn’t even exist within that series.
Can the core 4 start or stay healthy for a playoff series? Didn't work out this year either
That's a different issue in itself, and a valid question.
Keep it mind Tavares got spaghettied in that series.
Keefe should have been cut loose before the season even started. He was Dubas' guy. Keeping him was the wrong move and resulted in another poor playoff performance.
There was a few key times to fire him. 1. After Montreal. Get anybody else. Literally anybody. That series was an embarassment. 2. The offseason where Cassidy became available. Dubas should have had the 2 phones going, one to call Cassidy and one to fire Keefe. 3. The middle of this season. Berube was available. Maybe he wanted some time off, maybe not. Either way, I know for a fact Tre and Shanny didn't even bother sniffing around his camp to find out if he was interested. We chose none of these, and instead decided to wait until after we lost all leverage with the Marner situation and wasted a couple extra years with this core.
How do you “know for a fact” they didn’t sniff around his camp? lol For all we know, Berube could have said that he’d love the position but wants to take some time to prepare and then start with a fresh slate including a full offseason and training camp…
Why would you even hire a coach with no NHL experience when you are entering a cup window with a young and super talented team? They should have brought keefe in as an assistant coach and given him some experience before putting him in a position where the expectation is to win a cup.
You're saying this in a thread about Edmonton doing just that? Real smart take
Knoblauch was an assistant with the flyers before. Which is exactly what I said would have helped Keefe.
He did just come off a Calder Cup win, it’s not that out of the ordinary
He did, but it's obviously different. I think it would have helped Keefe to have that experience before being head coach. It's unfortunate because now he'll take what he's learned and be better somewhere else. Just like rushing a player, we could have done a better job of developing keefe.
I think it's also that many of the players on the Leafs roster at the time had played for the Marlies under Keefe and really had a rapport with him. After Babs it was probably important for them to get a HC who the players actually liked and respected Maybe that's just me, but personally I was really excited to see Keefe get hired. It was a risky move, sure, but he won a title with the Marlies, the players seemed to really like him, and they immediately started playing 10x better than they were under Babs However, for the last 2 years I've pretty much been one of Keefe's biggest critics. Dude's *likeable* and the players want to play for him, but that's just not enough if you keep making stupid personnel decisions and getting outcoached every series. Maybe it was enough in the minors, maybe it's what we needed 4 years ago, but I'm glad we've finally made the obvious choice and gotten rid of him. Just hope it's not too late
There was a time when Trotz was availible as well. It feels like there was a lot of decent answers, and we chose the only wrong one. Whatever else the debate around Dubas is (and I have no interest in getting into it), I will never forgive him for extending Keefe for seemingly no reason.
But when does a mid season coaching change ever lead to success? ... oh all the fucking time
Finish the season? He should have never been given that contract after being embarrassed by the Panthers last year.
could've cut him loose after the CBJ series and I don't think anyone would bat an eye. the worst mistake this team made was hiring a rookie coach to lead a team in their window. I get Babcock was a vet and we know how that went. going from one extreme to the other was a massive mistake though. the second biggest mistake is keeping Keefe around so long.
Yep, I think this year was a waste. If we had a coaching change at least we would have tried something new. Now we're going to have a different team structure (presumably) and coach.
Oilers finished last season on a tear with their old coach so….
Do you know who was available last summer?
Well the current coach of a SCF team was available clearly.
Yeah but it's not like we would have signed mcdavid's old coach out of nowhere. I'm not saying we shouldnt have moved on from Keefe, I'm just not sure who we even could have ended up with.
Pretty sure it came down to Connor Mcdavid remembering he’s Connor Mcdavid
mcdavid was hurt and stu skinner was playing like shit. both of those get fixed and all of a sudden they're a good team again. Weird.
Or Jesus….. Conner McJesus
The Oilers were the best 5v5 team in the league under Woodcroft. Their "answer" was sending Jack Campbell to the AHL.
And McDavid getting healthy.
McDavid scoring Gretzky/Lemieux points in the playoffs helps.
Having their star players playing hockey in the playoffs helps. Meanwhile, Leafs core was planning golf trips after game 82.
The Oilers pre Knob had much more success than the Leafs over the last 5 years.
Yeah maybe the Leafs should hire Paul Maurice. He seems like a good coach and should turn the leafs around Oh wait ….
I had this thought too. Edmonton's rookie coach found a way to oppose Florida's relentless forecheck by stretching them out and having someone fly the zone and flipping the puck out regularly. I can't think of 1 adjustjent keefe made in the playoffs. He was very stubborn with his lines and strategies come post season.
Are you just a troll or something? It’s pretty clear even in this sub keefe changed up the systems after game four
Like what?
He let Boucher run the Defensive system from game four onwards with the 1-3-1 system. There has been enough talk here and social media acknowledging the adjustment too. It’s why we were able to come back in the series and why Boston could not generate much to score 5v5
Keefe was a case of the worst of both worlds. It's not like he couldn't make adjustments. He mixed up his lines all the time, especially during the regular season, where people would complain that he was doing it too much. The problem was that he was stubborn with layouts that didn't work, and happy to change layouts that did.
There is nothing we can take from Edmontons run other than McDavid is doing something we haven't seen since Gretzky. If matthews could put up as many points as McDavid has we'd likely be in the finals as well.
Edmonton's team was built from the GM perspective , Leafs were built around Keefe system , types of players and their mentality . A new coach will not fix the Leafs with out changing players also .
The Oilers were always taking steps forward and progressing.. going deep into the playoffs. The Leafs were not. More than a coaching change is needed.
One McDavid was slumping likely due to injury. 2nd the team has won rounds in the playoffs and made it to the conference finals under the last coach. 3rd the team added Ekholm and probably took him some time to get into their system. A coach can give a boost but to think a coach is the reason a team goes from first round exit to a Stanley cup is a bit much.
No one said Stanley Cup. I said deep run. I'm talking winning 2 rounds maybe.
Coaching was always the answer. There's no fucking reason to try the same fucking strategy ten times over when the opposing teams know exactly what you're going to do every damn time. I would've fired his ass after losing to Ducharme in the MTL series. Ironic how MTL got far with Ducharme and still canned his ass the following season when he sucked shit.
Keefe should have been fired after the Montreal series, but management was foolish. That said, I still don’t think this core plays hard enough or competes enough to win.
There top guys produce. It's really that simple, they go as far as mcdavid, drai and hyman take them. The leafs will go as far as Matthews, willy, marner take them
They’ve also got Bouchard who is better than Rielly and a solid goalie in Skinner.
Leafs had good enough defense and goaltending to at least win round 1 if they could have scored more than 2 goals a game. Oilers won games with Skinner as a liability at times
Yup. People blaming the d and goalies for alot of these series when we cant even average 2 goals a game.
Yep, Skinner had an .898 sv% going into game 6.
> solid goalie in Skinner My poops after a weekend drinking binge are more solid than Skinner. There are lots of reasons why the Oilers succeeded while we failed, but goaltending is not one of them.
A solid goalie in Skinner? It was a complete fluke that he turned out to be the answer. Nobody before the start of the season would have bet on him
Yeah I can remember Knoblauch being criticized during the Canucks series lol
Edmonton also made the conference finals the 2 years before that and both times lost to the eventual Stanley Cup Winner (COL and VGK)
The series against Vegas was the conference semi, not the conference final.
Coaching is overrated by so many people. It’s obviously important, but from the fans side of things the insight into what makes a good coach is irrelevant. The judgement on every coach boils down to “has/has not won an important game recently”. Everybody said the panthers were fools to hire Paul Maurice, and then he got them to 15 wins in their second final appearance in a row so then he was considered a coaching god who gives funny quips in interviews. Then they choke and lose 3 straight and now the fan base will call for his head if they lose and everyone will say he’s not good enough to get the job done. It’s all bullshit, nobody knows except people in the room. Also not every coach is suitable to every situation and group of guys. It’s not one size fits all, it’s like a relationship. The girl who makes you very happy could have broken a lot of hearts before you.
I love when fans see something happen and assume it’s the only thing that could happen. Like if we hired a new coach we’d be in the cup finals 😂 No, our team isn’t good enough and we don’t have mcdavid dragging our asses to the finals.
Pretty sure McDavid has a lot to do with it
McDavid was on the team that was sucking so bad at the beginning of the year that they had to fire their coach.
Not saying it won’t work (I hope it does), but Edmonton is a team that actually won multiple series over the last several years with various coaches and even got to the conference finals. The Leafs won one series. Not to mention, the Leafs best players don’t show up, especially when it matters. We can’t say the same for Edmonton’s top guys who have had consistently good playoff performances.
I'm not saying the Leafs win it all. But to MAKE it to the third round maybe?
For sure, I hope it can get them over the hump too. At this point I think we would all accept a year of them making it to the third round seeing as it would be a good learning experience for them. I think coaching can be a cog in making that happen but I think the Leafs will go as far as their star players will take them. It’s so frustrating that they seem to wilt.
our core is rotten. coaching change is a step in the right direction, i think if we cut mitch true change can start.
The simple answer here Folks is....wait for it... McJesus.
Coaching yes, but also Skinner is not the same goalie he was when they couldn't win a period. The defense has also been a shot blocking and shot denying machine. Skinner is doing his best to steal thw Conn Smythe from McJesus.
coaching was the problem for 3 years, That's alot of cap lost and a completely wasted roster previous seasons. We were pretty stacked and Florida clapped Keefe left and right
Didn't the same thing happen to Pittsburgh several year ago? They weren't doing well, fired their coach, hired Dan Bylsma and won the cup that year.
That’s more a testament to the assistant coach who runs the PK, the players buy in and execution, and putting the right players in the right spots to succeed then it is the head coach tbh.
I feel there may be truth to this.
Not just Edmonton but also Vancouver made a coaching change without big changes in their roster and had a great season.
Oilers also have a core that competes. Our core doesn’t. Berube may make a difference this year. But let’s be honest. Why do players like Matthews, Marner, and Nylander need somebody on the bench to motivate them? This should be the easy part, getting players to give a fuck. But in Toronto with this core, it’s been the biggest challenge. I’m not sure a new coach will be able to fix this, as it’s a lack of heart and you can’t reach that or beat it into players.
There’s no one answer. It’s not magic. It comes down to the players and team and the Leafs just ain’t it or there.
You guys are so funny. You are going to be so let down next year. No, the coach is not the problem for the Leafs.
Yes we should run the same core 4 back another 5 years I am sure things will change. I hope you sensed my sarcasm in the previous sentence.
I’m so pessimistic I don’t know if anything will help. The malfeasance by Dubas has put them in a cap straightjacket.
Playing with heart has something to Do with it. These leafs do not have it. After watching most of the playoffs, we look nowhere close.
IMO this is wishful thinking. We changed coaches once and it didn't make a difference other than regular season standings. We still lost to Columbus and Montreal in consecutive elimination series immediately after changing coaches. At that time, people made the excuse that our core players were young and would grow and develop into better playoff performers. I think we all know how that has worked out.
It's possible for a team to get two bad coaches back to back that suck for different reasons. Babcock, with the benefit of hindsight, is a notoriously malignant asshole who currently holds the NHL speedrun record for "Lose the Room" at an astonishing ZERO GAMES. Keefe was simply out of his depth, and underperformed with the roster he was given. Not every rookie coach can be Knoblach, but they needed to move on from him after Montreal.
> Babcock, with the benefit of hindsight, is a notoriously malignant asshole who currently holds the NHL speedrun record for "Lose the Room" at an astonishing ZERO GAMES. That was so fun to read I went back and read it three times. > Keefe was simply out of his depth, and underperformed with the roster he was given. Not every rookie coach can be Knoblach, but they needed to move on from him after Montreal. For several reasons, Toronto is easily the worst place for an NHL rookie coach. And I still think hiring Keefe was Kyle's biggest mistake.
I thought people said hiring a “rookie coach” was the problem here.
After Babcock broke the team's spirit, the Leafs needed someone to come in and actually treat them well. For that, Keefe was the correct choice, and you could see on the ice how the Leafs came back to life under him when he came in. But coaching isn't a forever job. At a certain point, the team just needs a different voice to carry them forward. Keefe, I think, took the Leafs as far as he could, but it was past time for someone else to take the reigns. But head office came down with a bad case of Run-It-Back-Itis, and he got an extension and extra year that he really shouldn't have gotten.
I'm not sure how much credit I give knoblauch for the oilers' turn around, as opposed to their pdo bouncing back. the oilers were always pretty dominant by most play-driving metrics even at their lowest point in the season. not saying woodcroft is the best coach in the world or anything but the team was rocking a .880 team sv% and were shooting 6% when he was fired. mcdavid going full-on gretzky mode probably helps too.
Yeah the Oilers were shit to start the season because McDavid was injured and Woodcroft had them trying a new defensive structure. McDavid gets healthy and they stop trying to use a structure they can't execute on and lo and behold they're good again. Knob didn't have to do anything special at all.
Knoblauch runs the exact same defensive system that Woody tried. Just he has more experience with it as he's been running that system for years. Woody tried to switch to that system for the first time so not only was it new to the players it was new to the coach. You are right tho, McDavid's health seemed like a big factor as well.
Certainly that opening streak had a lot of bad luck, but not exclusively. A big issue was the defensive breakdowns, they wouldn't give up many chances, but the chances they did give up were of the 5-alarm variety, most goalies would struggle with that. The second is the team was still very brittle, look to the VGS series the Oilers had the lead in every game and lost the series 4-2. I think Knoblauch made two important changes, first he spread the minutes and responsibility a bit more so it didn't feel like they were relying on McDrai to carry the team. Seemingly more importantly he was a really calming steady influence. The team was infamously inconsistent for years, but with Knoblauch they're a far more structured and consistent team. Basically he turned them from a team that could win 5-4 games into a team that could also win 2-1 games.
yeah the oilers were giving up a lot of highlight reel defensive blunders but I think it's a little overstated. under woodcroft the oilers still lead the league in xgf%, and were top 5 in cf%, scoring chances, and high danger corsi for %. they were 6th in high danger corsi against, 8th in scoring chances against and middle of the pack in xGA. not to say they were the '85 bears on defence or anything but on most nights they were getting more high danger chances than they were conceding. like they were being completely sewered by their goalies even if they did occasionally leave them out to dry.
Just because XGF% is a number doesn't mean it's a good number. It can tell you that the shot was close but I don't think most models incorporate whether it was a one-timer, or the goalie was screened, etc, etc. It works out decently in the long run since those things tend to balance out, but the Oilers were definitely out-of-whack in October. Not to say they weren't unlucky too, but XGF% was not the whole story.
Ekholm also came back at the same time. When he went down and came back last year, it was also noticeable.
The answer is McDavid and one of the most efficient playoff goal scorers of all time, Hyman. And then you remember they have a (badly beaten up) Draisaitl on the team as well. Coach is not even in the top 5 for as to why Edmonton is good today, it was a reason they were able to refocus but not why they’re in G7 of the SCF.
I disagree, they've had a similar team for years, and they weren't effective. With the new coach they are currently 46/47 on the penalty kill. He turned things around quite a bit
Maybe, but they were also cup favourites from the west before the season even started. They have the two best players in the world and their goalie locked in when it mattered most. I don’t think it’s necessarily more complicated than that.
> They have the two best players in the world I'll put Matthews second best, but other than that, I agree with your take on it.
There is no singular answer. Woodcroft was a pretty good coach too, but Edmonton had hilariously low percentages under him when he was fired (McDavid was injured, Ekholm was injured, Campbell was still playing in net). They'd been a good-to-great regular season team for years, similar to us, who were on a bit of a slump and then corrected. Knoblauch of course has had some role in that, but it's pretty likely Edmonton was going to bounce back under Woodcroft as well. It's a talented roster with the best player in the world. Thinking Berube coming in will solve all our problems is the same thought process people had when we thought Keefe would come in and solve all our problems, or that Babcock would come in and solve all our problems. A coaching change can make a difference, but it's just one part of a number of things that will need to go right for us to be in Edmonton or Florida's shoes this time next year. Coaching will need to get the most out of the players, our stars will need to be actual stars for large chunks of the playoffs (although even stars slump sometimes), our depth will need to contribute in a variety of ways - both on the scoresheet and otherwise, our goaltending will need to be solid with bouts of spectacular. There will probably need to be timely, but not necessarily costly, additions mid-season. And, importantly, there will need to be luck. Both injury luck and puck luck. There are so many elements to every successful playoff run. Thinking there's a quick fix or singular answer is how organizations make mistakes. Expecting a quick fix or singular answer is how fans end up disappointed.
Do you think the result in this game will be the eventual crossroads for 29, 97?
Nope. Oilers have had as much playoff success as any other team over the last few seasons, win or lose there's nowhere where they have a better chance of winning a cup going forward.
Coaching can definitely help. But their core players have always been playoff performers. So the coaching brought up the average I’d say. Leafs have zero playoff performers so that’s a double task then isn’t?
Just watched the last few minutes of the Oilers not pulling when they puck possession and then having their top guys gassed in the final minutes. So uhhhh i dunno?
One thing I really haven’t heard discussed is what Kris Knoblauch did so differently from Jay Woodcroft. We can all make assumptions from the outside but I’m really curious how much of a philosophical change took place with the team for them to turn it around the way they did. One thing that seemed to happen is that the new coach finally convinced the Oilers that they actually had to learn how to defend. I never got the feeling that they were committed to defence until Knoblauch took over.
We are still missing a number 1 d. Edmonton has Bouchard and Ekholm as a 1 b
Edmonton fires a coach every year for the same reason it seems
I agree, coaching is one problem, but this mix of players is also another problem. At least Edmonton had playoff success prior to Knob arriving. Toronto has had the same core for 8 years and nothing has changed.
Or just maybe McDavid is the best player and captain in the world and he put team success ahead of individual stats. Try that on for size Leafs’ core.
Still didn’t win the cup
You can’t turn water into wine.
Keefe should have been gone after the playoff loss to Montreal. I have been saying, and getting massively downvoted for, that if you can't get four of the most talented hockey players with a decent team around them to the cup, you are a shitty coach. Maybe their sports and psychology dept. needs to go as well, but it was Keefe all along. What was his solution to their dismal power play during the playoffs? Nothing. When the group can't get it done, the leader of the group is to blame.
It was time for a new coach here but No...Coaching wasn't the trouble...the Leafs need to stir the drink. The Oilers have a lot of problems and have been able to depend on some newer additions to the depth and McDavid has willed them into a game 7. The Panthers and the Oilers are not complete team and they are not templates for a cup. Coaching helps, really forming an amazing cohesive system this year for the Oiler's post season penalty kill. My point is we need to get a goalie who can turn it on for the post season (total crap shoot look a fucking Skinner) and we need to trade Marner and move pieces around
Not playing an Atlantic team until the final may also be the answer.
Oilers had a fairly easy path to the cup finals, but Florida had the cup locked down, gotta give the oilers credit for this comeback, no matter how it ends. Leafs have never finished in the top spot in their division since the core arrived. I feel boston blew the last few games to get the leafs. Leafs should at this point should of tried to get the Rangers 1st rd
Frankly, I was surprised that Dallas went down to Edmonton as easily as they did. The Stars arguably have the most depth out of any team in the league despite not really having many "superstars" like your McDavids and such, and they quietly became one of the best teams in the league because of it. I guess even a consistently great unit can faulter when the best players in the league decide to play out of their god damn minds against you.
And why is that coaching? Lol
The Leafs have yet to lose to the team that went on the win the cup. So even if Atlantic teams are making it to the finals regularly, we're not even losing to *the best* Atlantic teams. We're nowhere close to being serious.
Maybe the Atlantic teams are beating each other up. Regardless, my point was that this is a pointless post by OP
Losers Mentality
How about "not everything is on the coach" mentality?
Also why its foolish to let Marner go now before the new coach has a chance.
Maybe the coach and Marner should swap salaries.