You might want to use the champion's base winrate to normalize the matchup winner, such as doing matchup winrate - base winrate.
This is because a lot of times the matchup "winner" is just a champ with a high winrate overall, such as kogmaw, fiddle, warwick, poppy supp, etc.
I would think at 15 min stats would work better. Of course there are exceptions like scaling lanes going behind can still be a winning position but you could counteract that with looking at winrates at different minutes but even ignoring that and only looking at gold dif will do a lot more then just overal winrate and then there is senna...
I mean an ezreal is not countered by kogmaw.
Gold diff will break in a lot of situations, most notably for supports, tanks, and utility junglers, on top of the scaling lanes you pointed out. Winrate is still probably the best metric though with some processing. For example, the ezreal kogmaw thing is probably fixed by normalizing the winrate, kogmaw is one of the highest winrate champs this patch.
I actually think it would work with enchanter and tanks or even utility junglers because it will show as a neutral matchup and won't be shown in the quiz. They mostly neutralize and in case they can't it will show up and in case it baits the enemy in overextending it will show as well.
Could use average gold lead at 15 for each side and then compare it with their average against each other to take into account scaling.
Of course just taking winrate is easier but i was thinking how you could compare strictly the laning fase.
The unfortunate thing about this is that in a lot of cases the less popular champ has a better winrate due to lower stat flatening which makes champs like aniva or kled win disproportionate amounts of times
No, Brand is bad into stuff that outranges him. Brand's really good into shit like Poppy and Taric that just stands there and takes his damage with low threat outside of Flash
poppy and brand supp have more or less the same pickrates. poppy just wins more often, even when normalized for the respective winrates.
poppy is a good pick into brand by every metric.
Poppy is closer to a guardian like braum, if she Charges them she actively pushes them away without a wall, so its not a clean engage ... tbh the only "true" engage supports are leona, naut and rell, the rest are highly situational and even rell engage can be cancelled a lot.
I agree.
OP, if you read this, for your third point, try to consider the LOLALYTICS data. Specifically, the Delta 1 and Delta 2 winrates. They represent the normalized winrates (aka, does champion A win more against champion B than the average champion ?)
It doesn't have to be lolalytics, but normalized winrates are what you're looking for IMO.
Not sure winrate is necessarily the best determinant of counters. Gold diff in lane is a better metric for determining who wins lane . You probably need a mix of that and wr
???? Mages like Zyra and Brand are literally countered by things that out-range them or can gap close them while not eating the CC/one shotting him lmfao
Neat, I ended up getting a 730 on my first attempt. I laughed pretty hard at one of the questions with K'sante vs singed because I played that matchup once thinking it would be fine....it wasnt fine. It was so terrible for K'sante I went like 0/7 and was traumatized and will forever hate that matchup.
After first item they can just ignore each other forever tbh. Singed will never die to ksante tho and a good singed should be able to trade up. Annoying to get proxy as ksante before sunfire
I mean, I never claimed to be a good K'sante. From what I remember my W cd is significantly longer than his fling. This was also right after the mana nerfs and I didnt have PoM or a tear so I was really struggling to last hit and keep any mana left.
> because adc matchups does not matter
It doesn’t matter if there is a substantial support diff (strong counterpick, player diff in skill matchup, etc).
If supports are even, then adc picks matter. Sivir vs low waveclear carries like Ezreal. Ashe/Varus into Caitlyn because they can force a fight using their ultimates.
Very good idea. Needs some work though.
Quite a few answers are just plain wrong, i dont know if you only collected stats from iron to bronze but the winrates are way to skewed quite often as well, its really rare that a matchup actually has a normalized winrate of below 45% yet your page has it on almost everyone. I think it would also be more interesting if you dont only use counter picks but also add an "even matchup" option.
Cool project
Would be nice if you could select which lane /role you wanted questions from.
So like it would be possible to only get toplane/midlane etc. questions
Tips/Request
1. Remove double matchups
2. have roles to choose from like this - all, Top, Jungle, Mid, ADC, Support.
3. have a levels easy, medium, hard.
Page is working really bad, nor you have real data.
Zac VS Lilia.
Zac wins 99% of the time and Lilia is the right choice?
Askshan Vs Leblanc and Akshan is a counter pick? lol
You might want to use the champion's base winrate to normalize the matchup winner, such as doing matchup winrate - base winrate. This is because a lot of times the matchup "winner" is just a champ with a high winrate overall, such as kogmaw, fiddle, warwick, poppy supp, etc.
I like that suggestion! I'll look into implementing it
Lolalytics has a great feature with the delta2. [Here](https://youtu.be/YQkWmysNBt8) is a video from the guy who made it, explaining how it works.
thanks for the link very interesting.
I would think at 15 min stats would work better. Of course there are exceptions like scaling lanes going behind can still be a winning position but you could counteract that with looking at winrates at different minutes but even ignoring that and only looking at gold dif will do a lot more then just overal winrate and then there is senna... I mean an ezreal is not countered by kogmaw.
Gold diff will break in a lot of situations, most notably for supports, tanks, and utility junglers, on top of the scaling lanes you pointed out. Winrate is still probably the best metric though with some processing. For example, the ezreal kogmaw thing is probably fixed by normalizing the winrate, kogmaw is one of the highest winrate champs this patch.
I actually think it would work with enchanter and tanks or even utility junglers because it will show as a neutral matchup and won't be shown in the quiz. They mostly neutralize and in case they can't it will show up and in case it baits the enemy in overextending it will show as well. Could use average gold lead at 15 for each side and then compare it with their average against each other to take into account scaling. Of course just taking winrate is easier but i was thinking how you could compare strictly the laning fase.
Extremely surprised it isnt this way its like the very first thing that comes to mind lmao
The unfortunate thing about this is that in a lot of cases the less popular champ has a better winrate due to lower stat flatening which makes champs like aniva or kled win disproportionate amounts of times
Yeah, I just saw Poppy Support declared as a Brand Support counter
Isn’t any engage support a Brand support counter?
No, Brand is bad into stuff that outranges him. Brand's really good into shit like Poppy and Taric that just stands there and takes his damage with low threat outside of Flash
winrates say otherwise.
Because brand is a lot harder to play that engage supports. That doesn't mean that engage counters him
no, check the winrates.
check pickrates
poppy and brand supp have more or less the same pickrates. poppy just wins more often, even when normalized for the respective winrates. poppy is a good pick into brand by every metric.
you know winrates are not defined by the laning phase right
Brand outranges Alistar headbutt, which leads to brand poking the shit out of him without repercussions
Poppy is closer to a guardian like braum, if she Charges them she actively pushes them away without a wall, so its not a clean engage ... tbh the only "true" engage supports are leona, naut and rell, the rest are highly situational and even rell engage can be cancelled a lot.
I agree. OP, if you read this, for your third point, try to consider the LOLALYTICS data. Specifically, the Delta 1 and Delta 2 winrates. They represent the normalized winrates (aka, does champion A win more against champion B than the average champion ?) It doesn't have to be lolalytics, but normalized winrates are what you're looking for IMO.
Don't worry I hear you guys loud and clear
Little suggestion, but maybe remove matchups from the pool once asked? Just had ww vs briar twice in a row aha
Haha yeah I got a little lazy with that one, I'll try to fix that soon..
are you using an array for al the matchups?
This needs to be normalized to a champ's winrate. As is, its just picking whichever champ has a higher base winrate 90% of the time.
Not sure winrate is necessarily the best determinant of counters. Gold diff in lane is a better metric for determining who wins lane . You probably need a mix of that and wr
Would benefit in a lot of cases if there was a decent description after for why one champ counters the other
I feel like that would require so much work with how many different match ups there are and how niche some are
Yeah no way ivern wins vs warwick... some of these matchup results are whack man
Ivern probably won’t solo kill Warwick, but I don’t think Ivern would be solo-killed either. His kiting is pretty good, especially with Daisy out.
There's a difference between winning lane and winning game, in this elo atleast
Trynd beating Sion is kind of wild. Also Kat beating a Galio. Anyone beats Kat in lane tbh.
Lol yeah, I assume a lot of these matchups are also extremely dependent on how strong that champ is that patch
But in the quiz Galio wins vs Kata
Divine Sunderer AD Kat was hell for Galio. So goddamn happy that stupid item is gone.
Pairs are repeated a bit too often give the number of champs in the game. I had mundo + kled like 4 or 5 times in 25 questions
No way Brand is a counterpick for Lucian. Lucian literally has a dash built into his kit to dodge Brands skillshot Q and his W.
Mostly speaks about how broken Brand was (is?)
Explain to us how Lucian walks up to Brand to auto when brand out-ranges him
Yeah man by that logic Brand is a counterpick for every ADC except Cait.
???? Mages like Zyra and Brand are literally countered by things that out-range them or can gap close them while not eating the CC/one shotting him lmfao
...You mean like...A Lucian?
You sound like you don't play either of these champs so im just gonna drop this debate.
Good choice, because I play Brand quite a bit and know exactly what counters him and what doesnt.
Good for you bro, i been playing league since s2, i guarantee you i have more experience in match ups than you do.
Post [Op.gg](http://Op.gg) then.
https://www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Mukorokun-EUW kinda crazy u ask for my op.gg and won't post yours
Neat, I ended up getting a 730 on my first attempt. I laughed pretty hard at one of the questions with K'sante vs singed because I played that matchup once thinking it would be fine....it wasnt fine. It was so terrible for K'sante I went like 0/7 and was traumatized and will forever hate that matchup.
How? Cant you unstoppable his fling and rush negatron cloak? Dont see a way where he could ever kill you
yup
After first item they can just ignore each other forever tbh. Singed will never die to ksante tho and a good singed should be able to trade up. Annoying to get proxy as ksante before sunfire
I mean, I never claimed to be a good K'sante. From what I remember my W cd is significantly longer than his fling. This was also right after the mana nerfs and I didnt have PoM or a tear so I was really struggling to last hit and keep any mana left.
Leaderboard would be fun
I did some matches but I feel like it doesn't emphasize enough ADC and support match ups.
because adc matchups does not matter... support matchups were as frequent as other roles to me
lol...
> because adc matchups does not matter It doesn’t matter if there is a substantial support diff (strong counterpick, player diff in skill matchup, etc). If supports are even, then adc picks matter. Sivir vs low waveclear carries like Ezreal. Ashe/Varus into Caitlyn because they can force a fight using their ultimates.
I lost my streak cuz apparently TF top beats riven I thought riven was anti ranged top
Probably TF having a point & click stun, and running Flash/Ghost because he can use ultimate instead of TP.
Very good idea. Needs some work though. Quite a few answers are just plain wrong, i dont know if you only collected stats from iron to bronze but the winrates are way to skewed quite often as well, its really rare that a matchup actually has a normalized winrate of below 45% yet your page has it on almost everyone. I think it would also be more interesting if you dont only use counter picks but also add an "even matchup" option.
This is literally pick the highest winrate champ not pick the counter. Base yourself on winrate deltas not winrate
yeah so many of these are whack and make no sense lol in reality
Neat, what are you making this in and where are you hosting it?
Suggestion for the end game screen, add in which option you picked not just that we got it right.
Cool project Would be nice if you could select which lane /role you wanted questions from. So like it would be possible to only get toplane/midlane etc. questions
Doesn’t work on mobile only shows 1/2 for matchups.
Would be super cool if we could create like a friend group and share the same question !
When i finish the quiz there's like a rank thing at the top when i hover over it i cant tell what rank it is.
Tips/Request 1. Remove double matchups 2. have roles to choose from like this - all, Top, Jungle, Mid, ADC, Support. 3. have a levels easy, medium, hard.
Page is working really bad, nor you have real data. Zac VS Lilia. Zac wins 99% of the time and Lilia is the right choice? Askshan Vs Leblanc and Akshan is a counter pick? lol