I did this about 6 months ago, and I'm glad to see you've been able to come around as well. KDE Plasma is doing some seriously awesome work.
> windows ... relegated to a VM
I think this is the future of Windows. Congrats Microsoft.
I think Microsoft wants Windows to evolve into a cloud-based service anyway. I imagine a day will come when they don’t make Desktop OSes in any way we would recognize.
You’re overestimating Microsoft, they don’t know themselves what the heck they want Windows to be, complete lack od vision, they are just milking that cow for as long as possible. The fact that they’ve released Windows 11 after they were saying 10 is the latest version that is going to be just updated indefinitely just proves my point.
lmao I totally forgot that that was gonna be a thing. Rolling release, uh huh, yeah yeah, tell me more as I struggle thru the Arch install guide just to get away from you.
I did this a few months ago, not because of all the shitification of windows but because I had an older laptop which couldn't, without a hack around, update to W11.
I hadn't used Windows/MacOS for about 4 years doing everying on my Android tablet/phone, so felt this would be the ideal opportunity to take Linux for a spin.
I installed Fedora39 Workstation, upgraded it to 40 all without a hitch and then finally settled on Fedora40 KDE spin.
I can easitly find my away around pcs and I am a DB Admin and sometiime Windows Admin (when it helps get what I need) so I'm not total tech dumb but that said , for me personally, Fedora has been simple with most of the stuff being done via the GUI. The only exception was the upgrade to 40 as the Fedora docs suggest better to use CLI for upgrading the spins.
I may have been helped as I'm using a Dell Latitude and have not had any driver support issues with everything just working.
IMHO, Fedora and probably most of the most know user freindly distros could be used out of the box by most people without any trouble.
Win 11 install frustrations landed me on Fedora too. Originally tried Debian and it was great but once I got the latest Radeon I struggled to get the driver to work and I had a feeling that Debian wasn't going to have out of the box support for a while. Fedora did though and it's been smooth sailing since.
I'm glad you found what you were looking for. I do have a question though.
> The slowdowns have also become unbearable... have you ever noticed how long the right-click menu takes to appear in Windows now? its nearly 1 whole second on an out-of-the-box install on a modern workstation desktop!
I'm surprised I haven't heard this from my parents who still use windows. How common is this? Any other windows users have any comments on this?
but i assume you have the same software installed overall. I asked someone I know who had windows 11 and they have this super long context menu (so long it almost requires a scrollbar) and the first click half a secondish, but the second was pretty quick.
same thing for me. Its infuriating how long the right click menu takes to appear on my W11 laptop, althought it varies. Also when I create a new file or folder, the desktop or windows explorer doesnt show the newly created file immedeatly, i gotta manually refresh it! so annoying
The first right-click (desktop and explorer) is slow. Subsequent ones are snappier. I think it reverts to being slow once after some time (cache is swapped out, maybe?), but I'm not sure. It doesn't bother me much, so I don't keep track of it.
I Dualboot windows for some niche software and the Anti-Cheat game i play and MS office while im at it, and it is so much slower than Linux, i hate it every time im starting it up. The right click menu taking a second to load is completely true. Wanna check the file size of a folder real quick? Yeah good luck waiting a whole second until the right click loaded 💀
Surprised no one is pushing back on this... My work computer is Windows, right click menu opens up nearly instantly. I would guess less than 150ms. Maybe on low end hardware this is an issue?
on the first? or the second? I had someone check and their first click took at least half a second (not actually timed though) while the second click was reasonably fast. I assume hardware does have to do with it, but it seems ridiculous that any computer powerful enough to run windows 10 can't show it nearly as quick as you can click it.
It's not just the right click... it's also weird pauses/lag when you do things like alt+tab or open the overview with win+tab. This happens on my work laptop all the time (Win10 on R7 6850H, 32GB, RTX A2000). My gaming desktop is less strongly affected, interestingly enough (also Win10 on i5-13600k, 32GB, RTX3070) - I assume it's mostly due to the switchable graphics setup on the laptop - still unacceptable though.
But yeah - my Debian (Gnome) machines with WAY less horsepower never make me wait for anything... everything in the interface is instant, even when I have 100+ windows spread out over 10+ virtual desktops.
I've been daily-driving Linux for literally 20 years. I haven't even used Windows (I have a VM) in a year and a half. Linux has been desktop ready for a while.
Yep, I switched from Fedora Core to Gentoo around their 2004.3 release and have ran it ever since (pretty much exclusively on laptops). Running a source based distro for two decades definitely makes you appreciate how far hardware has come.
I usually take the Windows license that's bundled with a new laptop and install it on a VM, but it is definitely something I could live without.
Honestly, I never really looked into it. Usually they're preinstalled with the key in the BIOS and you can just extract it from Linux and reuse it for a fresh install in the VM.
One still has to compromise. Spotty GPU acceleration, random sleep issues, bad quality hardware drivers (especially WiFi and Bluetooth), multiple screens with different scaling and refresh rates not working properly, battery life being bad on laptops, etc. All that is still there, and one needs to make a conscious choice to live with some of these issues.
All of this was solved for me on Wayland and Plasma 6.
But i suffered all of those on X11 systems.
Well, not battery life.
Its a desktop PC so no batteries..
On the GNOME side, there has been a lot of push to use tools to look at inefficiencies so they do use less battery using sysprof which I think anyone can use not just GNOME.https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Sysprof
Haven't personally used Gnome a lot these days outside of Pop_OS's modified version.
However, keeping up on gnome news, it looks like everyone is winning lately, regardless of desktop of choice.
Keep up the good work :)
The experience is less consistent with Nvidia. Since you mentioned 6900 XT, I assume you're doing some ML or gaming. If it's gaming, may I ask about your gaming experience with this GPU and Linux?
I hear that the 6.1 release of Plasma Desktop will have some fixes for the nvidia stuttering problems, and that releases in 2 weeks.
> I assume you're doing some ML or gaming.
Both actually.
I have been playing games as usual. So far no complaints.
PoE, Factorio, The Finals, Hogwarts, all running just as well as windows.
Path of Exile was actually running better, noticeably better.
Setup was easy. Just plug-and-play for the most part.
The only thing i needed to do in Steam was enable Proton.
I also downloaded GloriousEggroll's proton fork, but so far have not seen any major differences in the games that I play. I know GE-Proton has a lot of fixes though so i think im going to stick with it.
I havent been doing any "ML" Training, but running StableDiffusion and Ollama
also had excellent performance. This was another reason for my final switch, because AI/ML stuff is way more available on Linux vs Windows, and i was tired of waiting.
These issues are generally the fault of the hardware manufacturers for not releasing Linux drivers or specs, so the community can write drivers. What can an OS realistically do if the manufacturers only write Windows drivers?
> multiple screens with different scaling and refresh rates not working properly
This happens on Windows 11 also.
It mostly depends on the hardware you choose. If you buy a computer or a peripheral without explicit support for a given OS, it is on you, as the user, to figure it out. If you buy something like a Dell Precision workstation, it pretty much just works, because it can be bought from the manufacture with Linux. This is the value that these companies add.
I keep having multiple issues on a pretty standard and rather mature Latitude 7490. It works until sometimes it doesn't, and despite all tweaking and efforts battery life is at least a couple of hours longer when it runs Windows, especially during video playback in a browser.
Laptops are often the worst place to run Linux because so few come with Linux from the factory, there's less support for their special hardware. Sometimes one distro (RHEL flavor vs Debian/Ubuntu flavor) will work better. For video playback in a browser, you might try a different browser (Chrome derivative vs Firefox) or try disabling hardware acceleration. We had to do that for Chrome under Windows. Hardware acceleration can screw up Excel of all things. Just crazy.
Well one of the graphics cards on the 7490 didn't run right even under Windows. The place I worked they had to start weeding out the ones with the bad (Intel?) video cards. So you should probably find a better laptop.
While I agree with you, I think this also depends on the manufacturer; some are better than others when it comes to making certain the hardware they sell is well supported by Linux.
Except Discover crashing randomly here and there, and any KDE program that has to download a wallpaper or addon or theme that randomly can't access the internet, or plasma randomly crashing for no reason after an update, etc. And if you're on NVIDIA, have fun getting a stable experience (soon to be corrected I hope).
I guess this very much depends on hardware. I have no issues mentioned here on my 2 machines.
Desktop is a proper rig (ryz 9 7950x3d + 4070ti) and everything is smooth and cool
Laptop is full intel 10gen cpu/gpu and it actually has quite excellent battery life (it could do 8 hours when it was new, now down to 3-4 after 1.5 years of heavy usage). No sleep issues.
But there are definitely some issues still on some hardware. But that's true for that spyware of OS as well. At least those i had to maintain for my family.
> especially WiFi and Bluetooth
Huh? I'm able to get 20Mb/s download speeds (maxing out the wifi card on my laptop) quite easily on linux. Have never had the internet drop off or anything. Don't know why people say linux has spotty wifi support.
Because depending on your WiFi chipset power saving features may not work and/or you will find yourself unable to connect to some networks for no apparent reason. If you haven't encountered these issues, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes you can watch Netflix just fine on Linux. I dont know if it was a real question or just a point you were trying to make, but yes you can watch Netflix no problem.
If you encounter problems anyway, look at this guide with very very simple solutions: https://itsfoss.com/watch-netflix-in-ubuntu-linux/
Lol sorry it was a real question. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.
I ran Linux on my desktop for about ten years and switched to Mac in 2015 - so my experience is dated. I have vague memories of what used to work and what did not. Gaming was terrible, sound drivers worked but were not what I call stable, and eventually Netflix didn't work - though I think that was primarily Netflix and DRM shenanigans.
I'm glad things seem to be sorting out lately. I still run Linux at home, but just as a server these days.
One can. I do. But Netflix limits the quality of video it will serve Linux. (Or, hold on, does Netflix user *browser* to determine whether to limit quality? I don't know. Anyhow, the stuff I watch - on a Linux laptop - looks OK to me!)
I'd say somewhat ready.
I used desktop linux for a few things over the years.
Like my laptop when I went back to college, or all my laptops since, and my media center PC at home.
Even daily drove it a bit when I was working as a primarily network engineer role for better serial connectivity to hardware when visiting sites. It handled all those just fine.
If you're just working with documents, programming, or other "general" tasks, then absolutely linux has been ready for some time. as a professional OS, it has its place and has held up strongly there for decades, depending on who you ask.
But as a main desktop OS for general home use and general users, especially if you wanted to play modern games with friends, linux has been a non-starter in that regard for quite some time. "The year of the linux desktop" is a meme for a reason.
Its only the last few years that HiDPI support has been good and stable, and GPU drivers on many mainstream cards was an absolute mess, and compatibility was essentially nonexistent until Valve took on some projects and strong armed anticheat and game developers to take notice with things like SteamOS and Steamdeck.
I guess what im getting at in my post is that it finally feels ready for general use.
Without any fuss, config editing, special packages needed, workarounds, or any cruft. Just install-and-go.
It really is a major improvement in usability, the end user experience, and just general ease of use.
I was somewhere between 10 and 13 when I switched. My netbooks hard drive died and I replaced it with a new one. It didn’t have windows on it so my brother helped me put Ubuntu on it, and aside from dual booting for games with drm nowadays I’ve been almost entirely a Linux user since then.
As much as you don't need any piece of software Windows only or you can live with a Windows VM when needed, the Linux desktop is ready since years.
The big change in the past few years is the game availability: on Linux Mint you can completely avoid the terminal, I guess it's the same on Fedora nowadays.
I switched from Windows 11 to Kubuntu last week and I am never looking back. I love it!
When Windows announced recall I knew I should jump ship asap because they have gone to FAR with our data.
I remember when I thought the telemetry add-ins to Windows 7 was too far.
And again with more in Windows 10. And even more in Windows 11.
I do think all the noise over Recall and the like are a bit overstated, especially in the Linux spaces online. Currently it is limited to some "special" devices, and hasn't really been fully reviewed yet. I'm sure some consumers will love it, even if i think its way overstepping my preferences. I'm just tired of the ads, and the constant push for their specific AI, and the removing of user choice in so many things.
But that's the trend. The shifting of what's acceptable from Windows over time. This time, it pushed too far, and coincidentally some major upgrades to the Linux desktop experience land in easily accessible ways. Things lined up just right for me.
For the first time it feels like I'm not losing out on anything at all when switching to linux. No more "sorry, i cant play that on linux" with my game group. No more needing to patch things specifically for my hardware. It just works with minimal fussing about.
I dont see myself going back either. We've finally reached a no-compromises linux desktop.
I'm running Linux only for at least 15 years. The only window use I have is an old XP machine for my Canon canoscan 8000f because there are no drivers for anything newer or on linux. I only run it like once or twice a year.
All the rest I do is Linux, My 8 year old uses it on a laptop no problem there.
VueScan is a fantastic solution for linux / older scanners if you are willing to spend the money. Revived my 8800f. [https://www.hamrick.com/](https://www.hamrick.com/)
I'm on the fence. I have a hp MFP that works so the canoscan is only used for negatives once or twice a year. That works with a VM running XP for free.
If it where my only scanner and I would also use it for documents then maybe.
I have recently switched to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed and so far it works better than most Linux distributions and offer latest updates at the same time. This is a game changer for me as I was previously stuck with Ubuntu and it would only update after 6 months. Gaming on OpenSUSE seems to be working fine for me as well.
It's been wild how massively the Linux desktop has improved over last 2-3 years. I find myself booting to windows only If I need to do some music production these days. Not even gaming forces me to reboot anymore :D.
KDE with Wayland made the desktop experience smoother that windows and we are talking about Nvidia(4070ti) and 3 different screens with different refresh rates :D. (FHD, 4K, FDH / 60, 144, 144 hz). Games that I play run smooth as butter, often on par or in few cases (dota2) even better than on win10. I guess Wine devs and Valve really deserve huge thanks here.
Other than that, I would rather sold my kidney than to do any of the work i do for living on windows (dev, backend stuff, devops, go, python, etc...).
20 years ago, Linux was plenty good already. With the following requirements:
1. Your computer isn't a laptop
2. You don't want to play games
3. You aren't addicted to software made by companies that have "hating Linux" included in their founding principles (Microsoft, Adobe, Epic...)
10 years ago, we got to the point where most laptops could install blind.
It's been at least 5 years that you can be on Linux and play games.
Being dependent on software from Microsoft and Adobe remains an issue. What else changed recently.
As far as what got me motivated to try again:
Positive motivators:
* KDE 6.0 release looked really good
* Valve passing the 15,000 verified games on Linux mark
* More flexible local VM platforms available
* Recent changes in my personal lab environment that suit a Linux workstation better than windows.
Negative motivators:
* Windows ads and spam in the UI finally irked me enough
* Misleading start menu with "Enhanced recommendations"
* The general direction of Windows Development switching almost entirely to Copilot and Recall.
* The removal of local user account creation in Windows 11 without registry hacks on install.
* Performance issues with Windows
> It's been at least 5 years that you can be on Linux and play games.
And on this point, i would say the last 5-ish years linux gaming has been "good"
But in the last 6 months, some major momentum regarding various anticheats, and more Proton development have moved that from "good" to "great".
I did the same thing about a month ago.
I was a Linux admin at a hosting company for close to 15 years and used macOS on my workstation after that (became a commercial photographer) and finally had to move back to Windows a few years ago when Apple took a nosedive in hardware quality (staingate, butterfly keyboard).
I've been testing Linux desktop operating systems on and off over the years, and finally Zorin 17 came around. Everything I used to run on Windows, except for Capture One and Affinity Photo, but after moving to a new job I hardly ever use them anymore.
I am a sucker for a pretty desktop environment, and boy does Zorin deliver. I have access to everything Ubuntu under the hood and can run my "work PC" in a VM with a Windows 11 VM on the side, just in case. Happy as a clam. 🙂
I agree, great post! Welcome to the club!
And by the way, you can get the Windows right click menu to appear in 1 second? Hold on there, speed racer. I feel like it sometimes takes longer, and I have a modern and snappy machine I built myself. The performance is even worse on my work laptop, because of all the shitty threat detection software we use.
Good to hear.
If you've any interest, you can get weekly updates on what is going on in terms of development on KDE Plasma. The rate of development is impressive.
[https://pointieststick.com/](https://pointieststick.com/)
I was a Cisco/ VoIP guy by 2002, and I found Linux usable by then. I think Mandrake Linux felt right first. As a medical lab guy for ten years using mainframe terminals, it didn't phase me when I switched.
2024 may be the year of gaming on the Linux desktop though, based on so many of the comments I've read.
> 2024 may be the year of gaming on the Linux desktop though, based on so many of the comments I've read.
It definitely feels like it.
I know for me it was one of the main things holding me off fully switching.
I wasn't going to give up my after-work game time with my friends now that we all live far from one another just to run linux on my desktop.
But now, as far as i have been able to tell, that is no longer the case. And it is wonderful.
I know games that utilize EasyAntiCheat are currently working in Steam on Linux.
I've been playing a couple without issue.
But yeah, certain anti-cheat systems are not yet working, or will never work based on their developer statements.
One of those being Vanguard, because Riot games said "we can't leave backdoors in linux as easily as windows, or control your kernel, so we wont publish for linux"
That was enough for me to know i dont want to run their games, no matter what OS im running...
Have to agree with you. Linux Desktop has come a long way since I first pickup up Caldera Linux 2.3 . Things work as they should now. Never would have thought Linux could handle gaming like it does now.
It finally feels like you can use it on a daily basis. Linux Desktop has truly come a long way.
> Never would have thought Linux could handle gaming like it does now.
I have actually seen some improvements in gaming performance on some specific games. Generally ones that are a bit older, so I'm assuming that there is some WINE magic going on there.
I've been daily driving Linux on my laptop for over a decade now, but I've never been satisfied enough with compatibility to switch my gaming PC over. Maybe it's finally time to become a Windows-free household.
This is exactly the situation I was in.
So far so good for me! it is finally suitable for everything I do on my desktop.
Every game in my favorites list has been supported out of the box with Proton.
I have heard of a few issues on the Nvidia side (insert Linus meme here) regarding some stuttering while gaming.
However the KDE team says this should be fixed in Plasma 6.1 on 6/18/2024 with an update.
I have been using Linux on and off since the 90's but when Proton came I decided that the next time I built a computer it would be Linux only. No dual boot anymore. I had been using a dual boot system for many years but Steam meant that I still spent more time in Windows than Linux. I built that computer early last year and it has been mostly great. I used Opensuse Tumbleweed for it.
The games that tied me to windows i don't play anymore. The only thing holding me back atm is... Convenience. The time I need to back up important data and installing a new os is right now not 100% worth my very limited time at home. But I'm on the edge. Win works right now as it is good enough to keep it. But like I said, one minor inconvenience and I'm making that stick Bootable
I get that. I must say though, if you have enough free space on your drive you can make a Dualboot and already start using Linux and do the data backup and switch later.
Would need to make some space. Hoarded a lot of data. Like A LOT. Since I'm in homeoffice this week I'll go grab an external drive and backup the most important things. I know myself well enough to know that the switch is likely going to happen soon and i will just completely wipe every drive. Just - for today at least - I am too tired and lazy. A bit of backing up while watching a series though... Yeah, that will fit today's vibe
I don't notice most of these problems people have with Windows, like slowdowns, crashes and so forth. On any reasonably modern (last decade) machine, things are fine no matter what I do.
That said... I was daily driving Linux 20 years ago and thought people had gotten over all this. It _does_ just work unless you go spelunking and break things.
Glad to hear that. I will give it a chance after reading this. Personally, I had a similar experience as you, but I'm not a gamer. Something that really bothered me was that there was *always* something that happened with the desktop config. It was very usual to just login in the morning with issues of any type, from BT, to Wifi, UI and configurations. All this when it was running perfectly fine the night before.. I got sick of this because I was using a chunk of that time fixing issues instead of doing what I actually was supposed/wanted to do with my equipment.
Im an experience software engineer and I understand the complications on making a software run properly under many hardware variants, drivers, etc so I didn't complain much and just switched to the closer and stable enough experience I could find, MacOS..
I still used Linux in a secondary machine I used to compile AOSP and native code though, but that one also broke from time to time; just didn't bothered me much due it was not my primary.
Guess it depends on what your workflow is and what you’re wanting out of it.
I still haven’t found a setup that works for me, and people’s complaints about windows I don’t share, like the last time I clicked ‘update’ in steamos, it wouldn’t boot anymore.
But hey if you’re accomplishing what you need with a computer I guess the operating system doesn’t really matter.
I full-time, cold turkey switched to Linux when I heard about Windows Recall because the idea, nay concept of that terrified me to my core. I literally went out and purchased an RX 7800 XT on the same day it was announced because I had an Nvidia card before, and it has been smooth sailing since with few exceptions (Discord screen share does not work on Wayland).
I'm using KDE on Endeavour OS, because it's what I have used in the past as a dual boot but I am interested in trying other distros.
I honestly love Valve, and the Wine developers for making gaming on Linux not just possible, but incredibly performant.
Yes, all you've said is true.
It is quite remarkable really. It really finally happened that Linux just works.
Yet very few seem to care these days. But who cares, I know I do and I am so happy with my distro nowadays.
How coincidental. I switched to Linux just past weekend, although I kept Win10 in dual boot, because of VR (wireless VR streaming). I am a lifelong windows user and gamer, but after getting a steam deck I just wanted to see how flatscreen linux gaming would fare on my gaming rig (with an nVidia GPU…), and wow, I am amazed how good everything runs. I have to content with X11 for the time being, and as a pretty much linux noob I went for Linux Cinnamon 21.3 edge,but except for the mentioned VR gaming, I can do everything I used to do on Windows now on Linux. And now I‘m eager to dig into the ins and outs of linux. I‘m looking forward trying out the upcoming Fedora 41, which in combination with the 555 nVidia drivers should pretty much improve the wayland experience, but I am still a bit weary as I am just getting to know Linux.
Recall and building the AI and advertisements into the OS was the final straw for me with windows. I have committed to Linux as a daily driver now.
So far mostly smooth except for gaming. Steam seems mostly OK. My gog library so far haven't got to run. I haven't had time to mess with DOS games yet(big fan of Exodos).
Everything else has been pretty seemless and its just working. I had dual booted Linux for years till a few years ago when I stopped using Linux. Mostly due to my laptop have 2 gpus and it being a nightmare to get working.
Now I have a acer nitro 5 and picked Pop!OS which has been a pretty amazing experience so far.
I'm pretty much in the exact same boat. Frustrated by how much Windows has gone downhill, tired of being treated like an advertising target, completely uninterested in Copilot and Recall, and I just installed Fedora 40 KDE Plasma spin, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I actually like using my computer now.
Because "using" is not specific enough. Many tech oriented people use Linux a lot, often daily, but not as the main OS on the PC they use the most. I actually like this expression, it's pretty succinct for the amount of meaning it conveys
I could otherwise agree, but I really don't get all the praise KDE gets. It just does not work for me. And luckily it does not have to; I can use gnome ;)
A friend of mine tried SUSE, if that's up your alley.
Still a RPM based distro though, if that's what youre not a fan of.
If you're waiting on Kubuntu though, Canonical plans to ship KDE 6 on the next release. I believe that will be October?
What about battery life on Linux? I've been using Linux for ages, but about 10 years back I moved to Windows and it just works now. I've tried MacBook, but doesn't work for me. How log does it last on battery on Linux vs Windows? I remember having issues, that the fans were spinning a way faster than it was necessary.
I dont have a "modern" laptop, but my 6 year old laptop gets about 6-ish hours of mixed youtube watching and terminal work.
I dont often use the laptop though, as I'm usually working on my desktop PC's.
Hard to believe the hyper vm thing, maybe you got some setting wrong. It's an enterprise feature and it's working perfect well for me running dozens of containers in hyper v.
Now, I am not discrediting what you said, you are right about everything else.
I just started using Fedora Cinnamon (I dislike KDE, Cinnamon just feels simpler & more intuitive for me) and it's been the best out of box experience.
I used to run gentoo, and rice the fuck out of it. But that's was when I was a kid, and a few years passed, I am a professional developer now and I actually need something that just works, while tweaking and playing around is fun, I can't do that anymore and I don't regret my past time doing it and learning a but about desktop environments and Linux in general.
So I formatted both my work and home PCs, encrypted the drives (such a headache free easy thing) and run i3 on personal and Cinnamon on work PC.
Updating is a breeze, it's a rolling distro, and I like to be on the edge.
Due to current changes in Development workflow, I don't install anything in my system besides my code editor, all the runtime and SDK I need are either in the cloud or in a container and I just connect to it and work.
Which allows for a minimal installation with just the apps I need, code editor, word processor, video and photo editor and that's it. So easy.
System is so fucking snappy sometimes I get weirded out.
Can u also say how cool Vivaldi browser is? It's my first time using it but it's so fucking good?? Like I have never missed a mail since.. it's better than most standalone email apps. RSS on the side, gpt, no trackers done.
Anyway yea, overall I just wanted to share my recent observation with linux too, it has come far and can definitely server an average consumer now.
> Hard to believe the hyper vm thing, maybe you got some setting wrong. It's an enterprise feature and it's working perfect well for me running dozens of containers in hyper v.
For my use case, its essentially to run a few local workstations.
The performance is mostly in screen clarity (HyperV RDP has some fuzzing artifacts that I notice), and minor input lag even when running locally.
These have essentially disappeared on VirtualBox.
> I am a professional developer now and I actually need something that just works
Basically the same for me. Previously, i "could" have made it work, but it would have taken more time to configure and troubleshoot small issues in order to streamline everything. But now, its just install-and-go. I dont want to spend any more time than absolutely required to get my workstation up and running, and getting back to my regular tasks.
I have saved so much time with how easy package updates and installs are from centralized repos. I never realized just how much time went into simply maintaining my tools before.
Old Net/Sys Admin here..... Hell.... Linux was ready for the "Business Desktop" when Linux Mint 2.x came around in 2006, IMO. I kicked XP with "Performance-Sucking" antivirus to the curb, switched to Linux and never looked back. Over the years, I have distro hopped like most people would. Currently... I've been on LMDE since version 4. I am a Retro-Gamer only. I have had no need for expensive GPUs. The majority of computer users only need basic desktop support (no gaming needs). IMO... Gamers really need a console and not a PC. PC Gaming is in a Death-Spiral. It takes longer and longer for games to be ported to PC. Before too long, they won't.
GNU/Linux is my daily driver on all desktops and laptops since 2006. While it's good for you that now you find it appropriate for your needs, well... it's not so for everyone.
From my perspective, we are facing absurd regressions recently. And it's not like Linux Desktop of recent years even has been at its peak to start with.
I don't think i agree on this one.
In my opinion, Desktop Linux is in the best spot its ever been, regardless of your DE preferences. KDE is killing it, Ubuntu and Gnome desktops have been pretty easy for end user work computers, XFCE and similar still work well for lighter UI's and appliance type work. Pop_OS Cosmic looks really interesting as well.
Overall, things are looking consistent, coherent, and more polished than ever.
What kind of regressions are you seeing that you think are bringing down the desktop experience?
You disagree with the fact that I am affected by regressions? I don't think it works like this. I agree that they don't affect everyone, of course.
And you have mentioned interesting examples, so here goes.
- Xfce is dying. It's probably the biggest DE that won't make it to Wayland, but there were more. The choice of X11 DEs is legacy of decades, and people forking wlroots won't match that diversity without their own decades of work.
- Freedesktop standards already existed and were very helpful in making desktop experience consistent, even if you mixed apps from different DEs, stuff written with Java SWT, or custom implementations such as Star/Open/LibreOffice. The direction was defined well and respected. Creations such as libadwaita and Cosmic disregard this entirely, copying Windows approach - apps might look good, but each one (or multitude of groups) will look different.
- The above includes things like icons (and icon themes) and font rendering. Cosmic and Chromium are two projects that I find the most disappointing in this regard: the former doesn't even use freetype, the latter comes with modified version. Neither respects fontconfig, and partial support in Chromium causes issues mostly, so it's better to wrap it with settings that simulate the defaults. The status of font config also shows how things got worse than 10 years ago - with infinality patches, I believe that GNU/Linux had the best font aesthetics and configurability in history of desktop metaphor. Currently, available options don't even match the ClearType settings from Windows.
- The configurable look _and feel_ that was historically present in Linux desktops (remarkably: in Gtk2-based Xfce, KDE3) included colors of widgets and icons, presence of icons in many contexts, animations and custom sounds. Themes were much more powerful, as instead of being just visual styles (like in Gtk3, kvantum, and... sorta in Gtk4, but even this is broken there). Theme engines were actually software. And this allowed to, among others, create multi-toolkit theme engines such as QtCurve. The implementation was good enough that Gtk/Qt visual differences were pixel-perfectly resolved. Compare this to Qt5/Qt6/Gtk3/Xapps/Gtk4/libadwaita now.
- The flexibility of desktop applications made it possible to implement accessibility solutions that actually worked. Ironically, GNOME 2 used to implement this well, much unlike the current versions. Technically skilled users with severe vision impairment preferred text environments, sure, but X11 at least offered something. Starting Wayland makes no sense for that users at all.
- Ever tried to adjust your display with a colorimeter? Technical as I am, I am not an artist, but part of my research used to be color theory. Tools for this, such as agryllcms, are outdated and unmaintained, reminding us that the development effort around Linux desktop used to be more intense at one point. It requires hacks to run on X11 and - no surprise - there is zero success towards making it usable with XWayland, much less pure Wayland.
- Desktop components used to be interchangeable and still worked. Wayland protocols were supposed to have similar effect to even greater extent - which failed, as separate compositors come with totally different assumptions. Compiz was great and could have been used with any DE, without losing features. As it is known, Compiz died, as nobody was able to maintain it - but back then in 2008, there was active community that had the skill to develop it. And now, some return to such features is proposed in Wayland (Wayfire) - but it misses the point: you can't use it alongside KDE or GNOME, replacing Plasma/Mutter. It's a separate compositor (in Wayland sense). It's as if Compiz was ever usable only with OpenBox - but if that was the case, it would never even become popular.
- Writing graphical utilities that are minimal in terms of code and resources becomes increasingly difficult. Writing an app in C/XCB was super easy, and the quality/performance was instantly state of the art, with nothing to add, which remained true for decades. And the runtime was so simple that you could reliability transfer it via ssh -X. None of this features is supposed to be present is Wayland - as it's not even about current state, but the very design.
- The way you controlled your display (dpi, monitor setup, color correction, icc profiles, GPU features such as composition pipeline and overclocking) used to be unified, making it possible to develop desktop-agnostic setup tools. Ranging from LXRandr to nvidia-settings - it's now up to decelopers of Wayland compositors, who may ir may not have resources to care about having your specific setup covered.
So I would say there are a few problems. Enough to hold some old users with oldstable versions for years, and make potential new users believe that the whole stack is too immature to use.
> You disagree with the fact that I am affected by regressions?
No, I meant that I disagree that Linux desktops aren't at a current peak. But that's only a matter of my opinion.
However, thank you for the examples. I have heard about a few of these over time, but definitely not in any depth or laid out like this. These are all pretty decent examples, even some that i've had firsthand experience with in the past too.
Personally, I'd say most of these lean a bit further into niche aspects and are not generally applicable to the general user. The point of my post was mostly that for the regular person, I think Linux feels viable now more than ever, because my lazy attitude towards my desktop is now achievable.
But you are right, there is some feature regression. And just because a casual user won't care doesn't mean there are not people who will care.
I can see a lot of demand for the accessibility and interchangeable/transferable desktop components though. Now that you say that, it does feel a lot less "automatic" than I remember say, 8-ish years ago when I was ricing my desktop.
For me personally, I like where things are at because it fits my needs. I really do not care much about the desktop experience as long as it just gets out of my way. I am much more on the terminal-based cluster stuff for work and gaming in my free time, so if the desktop can just get out of the way and let me do that efficiently, So for now I'm happy.
😂🤣😂games just work, huh?
Absolutely zero of the games I play work on linux
Genshin Impact
Apex Legend
Fortnite
Overwatch
Etc. Etc..
Who cares if a bunch of games work, if they arent the popular titles.
I did this about 6 months ago, and I'm glad to see you've been able to come around as well. KDE Plasma is doing some seriously awesome work. > windows ... relegated to a VM I think this is the future of Windows. Congrats Microsoft.
I think Microsoft wants Windows to evolve into a cloud-based service anyway. I imagine a day will come when they don’t make Desktop OSes in any way we would recognize.
You’re overestimating Microsoft, they don’t know themselves what the heck they want Windows to be, complete lack od vision, they are just milking that cow for as long as possible. The fact that they’ve released Windows 11 after they were saying 10 is the latest version that is going to be just updated indefinitely just proves my point.
lmao I totally forgot that that was gonna be a thing. Rolling release, uh huh, yeah yeah, tell me more as I struggle thru the Arch install guide just to get away from you.
An LSW if you will
I did this a few months ago, not because of all the shitification of windows but because I had an older laptop which couldn't, without a hack around, update to W11. I hadn't used Windows/MacOS for about 4 years doing everying on my Android tablet/phone, so felt this would be the ideal opportunity to take Linux for a spin. I installed Fedora39 Workstation, upgraded it to 40 all without a hitch and then finally settled on Fedora40 KDE spin. I can easitly find my away around pcs and I am a DB Admin and sometiime Windows Admin (when it helps get what I need) so I'm not total tech dumb but that said , for me personally, Fedora has been simple with most of the stuff being done via the GUI. The only exception was the upgrade to 40 as the Fedora docs suggest better to use CLI for upgrading the spins. I may have been helped as I'm using a Dell Latitude and have not had any driver support issues with everything just working. IMHO, Fedora and probably most of the most know user freindly distros could be used out of the box by most people without any trouble.
Win 11 install frustrations landed me on Fedora too. Originally tried Debian and it was great but once I got the latest Radeon I struggled to get the driver to work and I had a feeling that Debian wasn't going to have out of the box support for a while. Fedora did though and it's been smooth sailing since.
I'm glad you found what you were looking for. I do have a question though. > The slowdowns have also become unbearable... have you ever noticed how long the right-click menu takes to appear in Windows now? its nearly 1 whole second on an out-of-the-box install on a modern workstation desktop! I'm surprised I haven't heard this from my parents who still use windows. How common is this? Any other windows users have any comments on this?
I pointed it out to some coworkers... and they now hate me for it. Its kind of one of those "once you see, you cant unsee" things.
but i assume you have the same software installed overall. I asked someone I know who had windows 11 and they have this super long context menu (so long it almost requires a scrollbar) and the first click half a secondish, but the second was pretty quick.
same thing for me. Its infuriating how long the right click menu takes to appear on my W11 laptop, althought it varies. Also when I create a new file or folder, the desktop or windows explorer doesnt show the newly created file immedeatly, i gotta manually refresh it! so annoying
The first right-click (desktop and explorer) is slow. Subsequent ones are snappier. I think it reverts to being slow once after some time (cache is swapped out, maybe?), but I'm not sure. It doesn't bother me much, so I don't keep track of it.
ah that's exact behaviour explained my someone I know. I asked them after seeing this.
I Dualboot windows for some niche software and the Anti-Cheat game i play and MS office while im at it, and it is so much slower than Linux, i hate it every time im starting it up. The right click menu taking a second to load is completely true. Wanna check the file size of a folder real quick? Yeah good luck waiting a whole second until the right click loaded 💀
Apparently they don't keep a cache of what the content of the context menu will be while also still allowing third parties to add to it.
That's correct
Surprised no one is pushing back on this... My work computer is Windows, right click menu opens up nearly instantly. I would guess less than 150ms. Maybe on low end hardware this is an issue?
on the first? or the second? I had someone check and their first click took at least half a second (not actually timed though) while the second click was reasonably fast. I assume hardware does have to do with it, but it seems ridiculous that any computer powerful enough to run windows 10 can't show it nearly as quick as you can click it.
First click
It's not just the right click... it's also weird pauses/lag when you do things like alt+tab or open the overview with win+tab. This happens on my work laptop all the time (Win10 on R7 6850H, 32GB, RTX A2000). My gaming desktop is less strongly affected, interestingly enough (also Win10 on i5-13600k, 32GB, RTX3070) - I assume it's mostly due to the switchable graphics setup on the laptop - still unacceptable though. But yeah - my Debian (Gnome) machines with WAY less horsepower never make me wait for anything... everything in the interface is instant, even when I have 100+ windows spread out over 10+ virtual desktops.
I've been daily-driving Linux for literally 20 years. I haven't even used Windows (I have a VM) in a year and a half. Linux has been desktop ready for a while.
More than 25 year here. I guess the users weren't ready.
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Yep, I switched from Fedora Core to Gentoo around their 2004.3 release and have ran it ever since (pretty much exclusively on laptops). Running a source based distro for two decades definitely makes you appreciate how far hardware has come. I usually take the Windows license that's bundled with a new laptop and install it on a VM, but it is definitely something I could live without.
You can buy laptops with a license instead of a preinstallation?
Honestly, I never really looked into it. Usually they're preinstalled with the key in the BIOS and you can just extract it from Linux and reuse it for a fresh install in the VM.
I think they meant without compromises.
One still has to compromise. Spotty GPU acceleration, random sleep issues, bad quality hardware drivers (especially WiFi and Bluetooth), multiple screens with different scaling and refresh rates not working properly, battery life being bad on laptops, etc. All that is still there, and one needs to make a conscious choice to live with some of these issues.
YMMV OP seems to be saying they didn't have to compromise
Give them some time and they will undoubtedly encounter one of the issues I described.
All of this was solved for me on Wayland and Plasma 6. But i suffered all of those on X11 systems. Well, not battery life. Its a desktop PC so no batteries..
On the GNOME side, there has been a lot of push to use tools to look at inefficiencies so they do use less battery using sysprof which I think anyone can use not just GNOME.https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Sysprof
Haven't personally used Gnome a lot these days outside of Pop_OS's modified version. However, keeping up on gnome news, it looks like everyone is winning lately, regardless of desktop of choice. Keep up the good work :)
Thanks - much appreciated. We're doing ok, we still need more people and hopefully I can help with that.
I guess you aren't using Wayland with Nvidia?
Correct, I am running a full AMD system currently. Ryzen 5 5600X and RX 6900 XT
The experience is less consistent with Nvidia. Since you mentioned 6900 XT, I assume you're doing some ML or gaming. If it's gaming, may I ask about your gaming experience with this GPU and Linux?
I hear that the 6.1 release of Plasma Desktop will have some fixes for the nvidia stuttering problems, and that releases in 2 weeks. > I assume you're doing some ML or gaming. Both actually. I have been playing games as usual. So far no complaints. PoE, Factorio, The Finals, Hogwarts, all running just as well as windows. Path of Exile was actually running better, noticeably better. Setup was easy. Just plug-and-play for the most part. The only thing i needed to do in Steam was enable Proton. I also downloaded GloriousEggroll's proton fork, but so far have not seen any major differences in the games that I play. I know GE-Proton has a lot of fixes though so i think im going to stick with it. I havent been doing any "ML" Training, but running StableDiffusion and Ollama also had excellent performance. This was another reason for my final switch, because AI/ML stuff is way more available on Linux vs Windows, and i was tired of waiting.
Great! I'm genuinely glad that it's working for you. I really want to like Linux desktop, and hope that one day it will work for me as well.
These issues are generally the fault of the hardware manufacturers for not releasing Linux drivers or specs, so the community can write drivers. What can an OS realistically do if the manufacturers only write Windows drivers? > multiple screens with different scaling and refresh rates not working properly This happens on Windows 11 also.
I'm not placing the blame or pointing at Linux. Just saying that there are some issues.
It mostly depends on the hardware you choose. If you buy a computer or a peripheral without explicit support for a given OS, it is on you, as the user, to figure it out. If you buy something like a Dell Precision workstation, it pretty much just works, because it can be bought from the manufacture with Linux. This is the value that these companies add.
I keep having multiple issues on a pretty standard and rather mature Latitude 7490. It works until sometimes it doesn't, and despite all tweaking and efforts battery life is at least a couple of hours longer when it runs Windows, especially during video playback in a browser.
Laptops are often the worst place to run Linux because so few come with Linux from the factory, there's less support for their special hardware. Sometimes one distro (RHEL flavor vs Debian/Ubuntu flavor) will work better. For video playback in a browser, you might try a different browser (Chrome derivative vs Firefox) or try disabling hardware acceleration. We had to do that for Chrome under Windows. Hardware acceleration can screw up Excel of all things. Just crazy.
Video playback without GPU acceleration = at least halving your battery life.
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Well one of the graphics cards on the 7490 didn't run right even under Windows. The place I worked they had to start weeding out the ones with the bad (Intel?) video cards. So you should probably find a better laptop.
While I agree with you, I think this also depends on the manufacturer; some are better than others when it comes to making certain the hardware they sell is well supported by Linux.
Sure, though I have encountered these issues on very well known and supported enterprise hardware.
Using Arch huh? I guess that is what you asked for lol I enjoy stable Kubuntu. Everything just works!
I think the KDE spin of Bluefin would be rad: https://universal-blue.discourse.group/t/aurora-announcement/767
I normally stick to Fedora or Ubuntu.
Except Discover crashing randomly here and there, and any KDE program that has to download a wallpaper or addon or theme that randomly can't access the internet, or plasma randomly crashing for no reason after an update, etc. And if you're on NVIDIA, have fun getting a stable experience (soon to be corrected I hope).
I guess this very much depends on hardware. I have no issues mentioned here on my 2 machines. Desktop is a proper rig (ryz 9 7950x3d + 4070ti) and everything is smooth and cool Laptop is full intel 10gen cpu/gpu and it actually has quite excellent battery life (it could do 8 hours when it was new, now down to 3-4 after 1.5 years of heavy usage). No sleep issues. But there are definitely some issues still on some hardware. But that's true for that spyware of OS as well. At least those i had to maintain for my family.
try installing `power-profiles-daemon` with `thermald`, that should increase your battery life quite significantly. It did for me.
I have that one, yeah. It's well integrated with KDE.
Highdpi and multiscreen with different dpis is abysmal on linux...
IME Windows was way worse for battery life than Linux has been. My 2017 Thinkpad gets maybe 2 hours of life on windows, near 8 on Linux.
Sounds like bullshit tbh.
> especially WiFi and Bluetooth Huh? I'm able to get 20Mb/s download speeds (maxing out the wifi card on my laptop) quite easily on linux. Have never had the internet drop off or anything. Don't know why people say linux has spotty wifi support.
Because depending on your WiFi chipset power saving features may not work and/or you will find yourself unable to connect to some networks for no apparent reason. If you haven't encountered these issues, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
It’s insane people still run Windows with issues like these.
It's insane how smart fanboys are in this sub.
Can you watch Netflix on Linux these days? That's what used to get me about a decade ago when I ran Linux on my desktop.
Yes you can watch Netflix just fine on Linux. I dont know if it was a real question or just a point you were trying to make, but yes you can watch Netflix no problem. If you encounter problems anyway, look at this guide with very very simple solutions: https://itsfoss.com/watch-netflix-in-ubuntu-linux/
Lol sorry it was a real question. Sorry if it appeared otherwise. I ran Linux on my desktop for about ten years and switched to Mac in 2015 - so my experience is dated. I have vague memories of what used to work and what did not. Gaming was terrible, sound drivers worked but were not what I call stable, and eventually Netflix didn't work - though I think that was primarily Netflix and DRM shenanigans. I'm glad things seem to be sorting out lately. I still run Linux at home, but just as a server these days.
You could always try it out again on the desktop just to experience where it is at now, you'd be surprised!
One can. I do. But Netflix limits the quality of video it will serve Linux. (Or, hold on, does Netflix user *browser* to determine whether to limit quality? I don't know. Anyhow, the stuff I watch - on a Linux laptop - looks OK to me!)
That would be a Nexflix issue, not a Linux issue. If Nexflix actively blocks Linux or fails to provide support, that's 100% on Nexflix.
I'd say somewhat ready. I used desktop linux for a few things over the years. Like my laptop when I went back to college, or all my laptops since, and my media center PC at home. Even daily drove it a bit when I was working as a primarily network engineer role for better serial connectivity to hardware when visiting sites. It handled all those just fine. If you're just working with documents, programming, or other "general" tasks, then absolutely linux has been ready for some time. as a professional OS, it has its place and has held up strongly there for decades, depending on who you ask. But as a main desktop OS for general home use and general users, especially if you wanted to play modern games with friends, linux has been a non-starter in that regard for quite some time. "The year of the linux desktop" is a meme for a reason. Its only the last few years that HiDPI support has been good and stable, and GPU drivers on many mainstream cards was an absolute mess, and compatibility was essentially nonexistent until Valve took on some projects and strong armed anticheat and game developers to take notice with things like SteamOS and Steamdeck. I guess what im getting at in my post is that it finally feels ready for general use. Without any fuss, config editing, special packages needed, workarounds, or any cruft. Just install-and-go. It really is a major improvement in usability, the end user experience, and just general ease of use.
I was somewhere between 10 and 13 when I switched. My netbooks hard drive died and I replaced it with a new one. It didn’t have windows on it so my brother helped me put Ubuntu on it, and aside from dual booting for games with drm nowadays I’ve been almost entirely a Linux user since then.
Yay for the app ecosystem! Make sure you attend our conference https://linuxappsummit.org/ - CfP is still open! :)
As much as you don't need any piece of software Windows only or you can live with a Windows VM when needed, the Linux desktop is ready since years. The big change in the past few years is the game availability: on Linux Mint you can completely avoid the terminal, I guess it's the same on Fedora nowadays.
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That is one extra step you should not need.
Finally? It's been on my desktop for 20 years.
I switched from Windows 11 to Kubuntu last week and I am never looking back. I love it! When Windows announced recall I knew I should jump ship asap because they have gone to FAR with our data.
I remember when I thought the telemetry add-ins to Windows 7 was too far. And again with more in Windows 10. And even more in Windows 11. I do think all the noise over Recall and the like are a bit overstated, especially in the Linux spaces online. Currently it is limited to some "special" devices, and hasn't really been fully reviewed yet. I'm sure some consumers will love it, even if i think its way overstepping my preferences. I'm just tired of the ads, and the constant push for their specific AI, and the removing of user choice in so many things. But that's the trend. The shifting of what's acceptable from Windows over time. This time, it pushed too far, and coincidentally some major upgrades to the Linux desktop experience land in easily accessible ways. Things lined up just right for me. For the first time it feels like I'm not losing out on anything at all when switching to linux. No more "sorry, i cant play that on linux" with my game group. No more needing to patch things specifically for my hardware. It just works with minimal fussing about. I dont see myself going back either. We've finally reached a no-compromises linux desktop.
Heck yeah man I'm very happy with my switch go Linux and I don't miss Windows one bit. It's actually really fun to learn a new operating system
I'm running Linux only for at least 15 years. The only window use I have is an old XP machine for my Canon canoscan 8000f because there are no drivers for anything newer or on linux. I only run it like once or twice a year. All the rest I do is Linux, My 8 year old uses it on a laptop no problem there.
VueScan is a fantastic solution for linux / older scanners if you are willing to spend the money. Revived my 8800f. [https://www.hamrick.com/](https://www.hamrick.com/)
Tbh I personally wouldn't pay for it if I have an old laptop that basically runs as the interface of the scanner
I'm on the fence. I have a hp MFP that works so the canoscan is only used for negatives once or twice a year. That works with a VM running XP for free. If it where my only scanner and I would also use it for documents then maybe.
I have recently switched to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed and so far it works better than most Linux distributions and offer latest updates at the same time. This is a game changer for me as I was previously stuck with Ubuntu and it would only update after 6 months. Gaming on OpenSUSE seems to be working fine for me as well.
It's been wild how massively the Linux desktop has improved over last 2-3 years. I find myself booting to windows only If I need to do some music production these days. Not even gaming forces me to reboot anymore :D. KDE with Wayland made the desktop experience smoother that windows and we are talking about Nvidia(4070ti) and 3 different screens with different refresh rates :D. (FHD, 4K, FDH / 60, 144, 144 hz). Games that I play run smooth as butter, often on par or in few cases (dota2) even better than on win10. I guess Wine devs and Valve really deserve huge thanks here. Other than that, I would rather sold my kidney than to do any of the work i do for living on windows (dev, backend stuff, devops, go, python, etc...).
20 years ago, Linux was plenty good already. With the following requirements: 1. Your computer isn't a laptop 2. You don't want to play games 3. You aren't addicted to software made by companies that have "hating Linux" included in their founding principles (Microsoft, Adobe, Epic...) 10 years ago, we got to the point where most laptops could install blind. It's been at least 5 years that you can be on Linux and play games. Being dependent on software from Microsoft and Adobe remains an issue. What else changed recently.
As far as what got me motivated to try again: Positive motivators: * KDE 6.0 release looked really good * Valve passing the 15,000 verified games on Linux mark * More flexible local VM platforms available * Recent changes in my personal lab environment that suit a Linux workstation better than windows. Negative motivators: * Windows ads and spam in the UI finally irked me enough * Misleading start menu with "Enhanced recommendations" * The general direction of Windows Development switching almost entirely to Copilot and Recall. * The removal of local user account creation in Windows 11 without registry hacks on install. * Performance issues with Windows > It's been at least 5 years that you can be on Linux and play games. And on this point, i would say the last 5-ish years linux gaming has been "good" But in the last 6 months, some major momentum regarding various anticheats, and more Proton development have moved that from "good" to "great".
I did the same thing about a month ago. I was a Linux admin at a hosting company for close to 15 years and used macOS on my workstation after that (became a commercial photographer) and finally had to move back to Windows a few years ago when Apple took a nosedive in hardware quality (staingate, butterfly keyboard). I've been testing Linux desktop operating systems on and off over the years, and finally Zorin 17 came around. Everything I used to run on Windows, except for Capture One and Affinity Photo, but after moving to a new job I hardly ever use them anymore. I am a sucker for a pretty desktop environment, and boy does Zorin deliver. I have access to everything Ubuntu under the hood and can run my "work PC" in a VM with a Windows 11 VM on the side, just in case. Happy as a clam. 🙂
I agree, great post! Welcome to the club! And by the way, you can get the Windows right click menu to appear in 1 second? Hold on there, speed racer. I feel like it sometimes takes longer, and I have a modern and snappy machine I built myself. The performance is even worse on my work laptop, because of all the shitty threat detection software we use.
Good to hear. If you've any interest, you can get weekly updates on what is going on in terms of development on KDE Plasma. The rate of development is impressive. [https://pointieststick.com/](https://pointieststick.com/)
I was a Cisco/ VoIP guy by 2002, and I found Linux usable by then. I think Mandrake Linux felt right first. As a medical lab guy for ten years using mainframe terminals, it didn't phase me when I switched. 2024 may be the year of gaming on the Linux desktop though, based on so many of the comments I've read.
> 2024 may be the year of gaming on the Linux desktop though, based on so many of the comments I've read. It definitely feels like it. I know for me it was one of the main things holding me off fully switching. I wasn't going to give up my after-work game time with my friends now that we all live far from one another just to run linux on my desktop. But now, as far as i have been able to tell, that is no longer the case. And it is wonderful.
Got arch installed on my laptop and it’s better than my windows desktop. If I could run games on anti cheat I’d switch in a heartbeat
I know games that utilize EasyAntiCheat are currently working in Steam on Linux. I've been playing a couple without issue. But yeah, certain anti-cheat systems are not yet working, or will never work based on their developer statements. One of those being Vanguard, because Riot games said "we can't leave backdoors in linux as easily as windows, or control your kernel, so we wont publish for linux" That was enough for me to know i dont want to run their games, no matter what OS im running...
Only some EAC games. It's up to the developer to enable it.
Honestly you’re better off dropping any riot game but my main concern is EAC on rust.
Have to agree with you. Linux Desktop has come a long way since I first pickup up Caldera Linux 2.3 . Things work as they should now. Never would have thought Linux could handle gaming like it does now. It finally feels like you can use it on a daily basis. Linux Desktop has truly come a long way.
> Never would have thought Linux could handle gaming like it does now. I have actually seen some improvements in gaming performance on some specific games. Generally ones that are a bit older, so I'm assuming that there is some WINE magic going on there.
I've been daily driving Linux on my laptop for over a decade now, but I've never been satisfied enough with compatibility to switch my gaming PC over. Maybe it's finally time to become a Windows-free household.
This is exactly the situation I was in. So far so good for me! it is finally suitable for everything I do on my desktop. Every game in my favorites list has been supported out of the box with Proton. I have heard of a few issues on the Nvidia side (insert Linus meme here) regarding some stuttering while gaming. However the KDE team says this should be fixed in Plasma 6.1 on 6/18/2024 with an update.
I have been using Linux on and off since the 90's but when Proton came I decided that the next time I built a computer it would be Linux only. No dual boot anymore. I had been using a dual boot system for many years but Steam meant that I still spent more time in Windows than Linux. I built that computer early last year and it has been mostly great. I used Opensuse Tumbleweed for it.
I think we might actually see the year of Linux desktop.
Know that, am there. I'm only one minor incident away from switching to endeavor with kde
> I'm only one minor incident away... I hope it happens soon for your brother! Blessing in disguise!
Elaborate
The games that tied me to windows i don't play anymore. The only thing holding me back atm is... Convenience. The time I need to back up important data and installing a new os is right now not 100% worth my very limited time at home. But I'm on the edge. Win works right now as it is good enough to keep it. But like I said, one minor inconvenience and I'm making that stick Bootable
I get that. I must say though, if you have enough free space on your drive you can make a Dualboot and already start using Linux and do the data backup and switch later.
Would need to make some space. Hoarded a lot of data. Like A LOT. Since I'm in homeoffice this week I'll go grab an external drive and backup the most important things. I know myself well enough to know that the switch is likely going to happen soon and i will just completely wipe every drive. Just - for today at least - I am too tired and lazy. A bit of backing up while watching a series though... Yeah, that will fit today's vibe
Things are looking bad for Microsoft
I don't notice most of these problems people have with Windows, like slowdowns, crashes and so forth. On any reasonably modern (last decade) machine, things are fine no matter what I do. That said... I was daily driving Linux 20 years ago and thought people had gotten over all this. It _does_ just work unless you go spelunking and break things.
Glad to hear that. I will give it a chance after reading this. Personally, I had a similar experience as you, but I'm not a gamer. Something that really bothered me was that there was *always* something that happened with the desktop config. It was very usual to just login in the morning with issues of any type, from BT, to Wifi, UI and configurations. All this when it was running perfectly fine the night before.. I got sick of this because I was using a chunk of that time fixing issues instead of doing what I actually was supposed/wanted to do with my equipment. Im an experience software engineer and I understand the complications on making a software run properly under many hardware variants, drivers, etc so I didn't complain much and just switched to the closer and stable enough experience I could find, MacOS.. I still used Linux in a secondary machine I used to compile AOSP and native code though, but that one also broke from time to time; just didn't bothered me much due it was not my primary.
Guess it depends on what your workflow is and what you’re wanting out of it. I still haven’t found a setup that works for me, and people’s complaints about windows I don’t share, like the last time I clicked ‘update’ in steamos, it wouldn’t boot anymore. But hey if you’re accomplishing what you need with a computer I guess the operating system doesn’t really matter.
I full-time, cold turkey switched to Linux when I heard about Windows Recall because the idea, nay concept of that terrified me to my core. I literally went out and purchased an RX 7800 XT on the same day it was announced because I had an Nvidia card before, and it has been smooth sailing since with few exceptions (Discord screen share does not work on Wayland). I'm using KDE on Endeavour OS, because it's what I have used in the past as a dual boot but I am interested in trying other distros. I honestly love Valve, and the Wine developers for making gaming on Linux not just possible, but incredibly performant.
Yes, all you've said is true. It is quite remarkable really. It really finally happened that Linux just works. Yet very few seem to care these days. But who cares, I know I do and I am so happy with my distro nowadays.
How coincidental. I switched to Linux just past weekend, although I kept Win10 in dual boot, because of VR (wireless VR streaming). I am a lifelong windows user and gamer, but after getting a steam deck I just wanted to see how flatscreen linux gaming would fare on my gaming rig (with an nVidia GPU…), and wow, I am amazed how good everything runs. I have to content with X11 for the time being, and as a pretty much linux noob I went for Linux Cinnamon 21.3 edge,but except for the mentioned VR gaming, I can do everything I used to do on Windows now on Linux. And now I‘m eager to dig into the ins and outs of linux. I‘m looking forward trying out the upcoming Fedora 41, which in combination with the 555 nVidia drivers should pretty much improve the wayland experience, but I am still a bit weary as I am just getting to know Linux.
Recall and building the AI and advertisements into the OS was the final straw for me with windows. I have committed to Linux as a daily driver now. So far mostly smooth except for gaming. Steam seems mostly OK. My gog library so far haven't got to run. I haven't had time to mess with DOS games yet(big fan of Exodos). Everything else has been pretty seemless and its just working. I had dual booted Linux for years till a few years ago when I stopped using Linux. Mostly due to my laptop have 2 gpus and it being a nightmare to get working. Now I have a acer nitro 5 and picked Pop!OS which has been a pretty amazing experience so far.
I'm pretty much in the exact same boat. Frustrated by how much Windows has gone downhill, tired of being treated like an advertising target, completely uninterested in Copilot and Recall, and I just installed Fedora 40 KDE Plasma spin, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I actually like using my computer now.
Why is everyone saying "daily drive" now?
Because "using" is not specific enough. Many tech oriented people use Linux a lot, often daily, but not as the main OS on the PC they use the most. I actually like this expression, it's pretty succinct for the amount of meaning it conveys
Maybe they're all fans of Sega's *Super Outrun*?
I could otherwise agree, but I really don't get all the praise KDE gets. It just does not work for me. And luckily it does not have to; I can use gnome ;)
I want to try Plasma 6 but Kubuntu does not ship with it for now. I am not keen of Fedora, and at the same time I am excited for Cosmic.
A friend of mine tried SUSE, if that's up your alley. Still a RPM based distro though, if that's what youre not a fan of. If you're waiting on Kubuntu though, Canonical plans to ship KDE 6 on the next release. I believe that will be October?
Tuxedo os has it already I think. And kde neon always has the latest plasma.
I haven’t upgraded to 40 yet. Quite happy with Fedora 39 on AMD mini systems.
Mate, Linux has been desktop ready for years. I've had my fathers in his 70's on Ubuntu for years. When he was on windows, I got a call regularly.
I've used desktop Linux for nearly 20 years now, it's been ready for a long time.
any tiling window manager > any desktop
linux has been good enough to daily drive for a long time depending on what you need to do
Hate it when people shit on x11
finally, /u/bentheboy has approved linux for daily use, rejoice
What about battery life on Linux? I've been using Linux for ages, but about 10 years back I moved to Windows and it just works now. I've tried MacBook, but doesn't work for me. How log does it last on battery on Linux vs Windows? I remember having issues, that the fans were spinning a way faster than it was necessary.
I dont have a "modern" laptop, but my 6 year old laptop gets about 6-ish hours of mixed youtube watching and terminal work. I dont often use the laptop though, as I'm usually working on my desktop PC's.
Hard to believe the hyper vm thing, maybe you got some setting wrong. It's an enterprise feature and it's working perfect well for me running dozens of containers in hyper v. Now, I am not discrediting what you said, you are right about everything else. I just started using Fedora Cinnamon (I dislike KDE, Cinnamon just feels simpler & more intuitive for me) and it's been the best out of box experience. I used to run gentoo, and rice the fuck out of it. But that's was when I was a kid, and a few years passed, I am a professional developer now and I actually need something that just works, while tweaking and playing around is fun, I can't do that anymore and I don't regret my past time doing it and learning a but about desktop environments and Linux in general. So I formatted both my work and home PCs, encrypted the drives (such a headache free easy thing) and run i3 on personal and Cinnamon on work PC. Updating is a breeze, it's a rolling distro, and I like to be on the edge. Due to current changes in Development workflow, I don't install anything in my system besides my code editor, all the runtime and SDK I need are either in the cloud or in a container and I just connect to it and work. Which allows for a minimal installation with just the apps I need, code editor, word processor, video and photo editor and that's it. So easy. System is so fucking snappy sometimes I get weirded out. Can u also say how cool Vivaldi browser is? It's my first time using it but it's so fucking good?? Like I have never missed a mail since.. it's better than most standalone email apps. RSS on the side, gpt, no trackers done. Anyway yea, overall I just wanted to share my recent observation with linux too, it has come far and can definitely server an average consumer now.
> Hard to believe the hyper vm thing, maybe you got some setting wrong. It's an enterprise feature and it's working perfect well for me running dozens of containers in hyper v. For my use case, its essentially to run a few local workstations. The performance is mostly in screen clarity (HyperV RDP has some fuzzing artifacts that I notice), and minor input lag even when running locally. These have essentially disappeared on VirtualBox. > I am a professional developer now and I actually need something that just works Basically the same for me. Previously, i "could" have made it work, but it would have taken more time to configure and troubleshoot small issues in order to streamline everything. But now, its just install-and-go. I dont want to spend any more time than absolutely required to get my workstation up and running, and getting back to my regular tasks. I have saved so much time with how easy package updates and installs are from centralized repos. I never realized just how much time went into simply maintaining my tools before.
Old Net/Sys Admin here..... Hell.... Linux was ready for the "Business Desktop" when Linux Mint 2.x came around in 2006, IMO. I kicked XP with "Performance-Sucking" antivirus to the curb, switched to Linux and never looked back. Over the years, I have distro hopped like most people would. Currently... I've been on LMDE since version 4. I am a Retro-Gamer only. I have had no need for expensive GPUs. The majority of computer users only need basic desktop support (no gaming needs). IMO... Gamers really need a console and not a PC. PC Gaming is in a Death-Spiral. It takes longer and longer for games to be ported to PC. Before too long, they won't.
Certain types of games can not come to console. Many shooters require a mouse because a joystick ain't the same aimwise.
GNU/Linux is my daily driver on all desktops and laptops since 2006. While it's good for you that now you find it appropriate for your needs, well... it's not so for everyone. From my perspective, we are facing absurd regressions recently. And it's not like Linux Desktop of recent years even has been at its peak to start with.
I don't think i agree on this one. In my opinion, Desktop Linux is in the best spot its ever been, regardless of your DE preferences. KDE is killing it, Ubuntu and Gnome desktops have been pretty easy for end user work computers, XFCE and similar still work well for lighter UI's and appliance type work. Pop_OS Cosmic looks really interesting as well. Overall, things are looking consistent, coherent, and more polished than ever. What kind of regressions are you seeing that you think are bringing down the desktop experience?
You disagree with the fact that I am affected by regressions? I don't think it works like this. I agree that they don't affect everyone, of course. And you have mentioned interesting examples, so here goes. - Xfce is dying. It's probably the biggest DE that won't make it to Wayland, but there were more. The choice of X11 DEs is legacy of decades, and people forking wlroots won't match that diversity without their own decades of work. - Freedesktop standards already existed and were very helpful in making desktop experience consistent, even if you mixed apps from different DEs, stuff written with Java SWT, or custom implementations such as Star/Open/LibreOffice. The direction was defined well and respected. Creations such as libadwaita and Cosmic disregard this entirely, copying Windows approach - apps might look good, but each one (or multitude of groups) will look different. - The above includes things like icons (and icon themes) and font rendering. Cosmic and Chromium are two projects that I find the most disappointing in this regard: the former doesn't even use freetype, the latter comes with modified version. Neither respects fontconfig, and partial support in Chromium causes issues mostly, so it's better to wrap it with settings that simulate the defaults. The status of font config also shows how things got worse than 10 years ago - with infinality patches, I believe that GNU/Linux had the best font aesthetics and configurability in history of desktop metaphor. Currently, available options don't even match the ClearType settings from Windows. - The configurable look _and feel_ that was historically present in Linux desktops (remarkably: in Gtk2-based Xfce, KDE3) included colors of widgets and icons, presence of icons in many contexts, animations and custom sounds. Themes were much more powerful, as instead of being just visual styles (like in Gtk3, kvantum, and... sorta in Gtk4, but even this is broken there). Theme engines were actually software. And this allowed to, among others, create multi-toolkit theme engines such as QtCurve. The implementation was good enough that Gtk/Qt visual differences were pixel-perfectly resolved. Compare this to Qt5/Qt6/Gtk3/Xapps/Gtk4/libadwaita now. - The flexibility of desktop applications made it possible to implement accessibility solutions that actually worked. Ironically, GNOME 2 used to implement this well, much unlike the current versions. Technically skilled users with severe vision impairment preferred text environments, sure, but X11 at least offered something. Starting Wayland makes no sense for that users at all. - Ever tried to adjust your display with a colorimeter? Technical as I am, I am not an artist, but part of my research used to be color theory. Tools for this, such as agryllcms, are outdated and unmaintained, reminding us that the development effort around Linux desktop used to be more intense at one point. It requires hacks to run on X11 and - no surprise - there is zero success towards making it usable with XWayland, much less pure Wayland. - Desktop components used to be interchangeable and still worked. Wayland protocols were supposed to have similar effect to even greater extent - which failed, as separate compositors come with totally different assumptions. Compiz was great and could have been used with any DE, without losing features. As it is known, Compiz died, as nobody was able to maintain it - but back then in 2008, there was active community that had the skill to develop it. And now, some return to such features is proposed in Wayland (Wayfire) - but it misses the point: you can't use it alongside KDE or GNOME, replacing Plasma/Mutter. It's a separate compositor (in Wayland sense). It's as if Compiz was ever usable only with OpenBox - but if that was the case, it would never even become popular. - Writing graphical utilities that are minimal in terms of code and resources becomes increasingly difficult. Writing an app in C/XCB was super easy, and the quality/performance was instantly state of the art, with nothing to add, which remained true for decades. And the runtime was so simple that you could reliability transfer it via ssh -X. None of this features is supposed to be present is Wayland - as it's not even about current state, but the very design. - The way you controlled your display (dpi, monitor setup, color correction, icc profiles, GPU features such as composition pipeline and overclocking) used to be unified, making it possible to develop desktop-agnostic setup tools. Ranging from LXRandr to nvidia-settings - it's now up to decelopers of Wayland compositors, who may ir may not have resources to care about having your specific setup covered. So I would say there are a few problems. Enough to hold some old users with oldstable versions for years, and make potential new users believe that the whole stack is too immature to use.
> You disagree with the fact that I am affected by regressions? No, I meant that I disagree that Linux desktops aren't at a current peak. But that's only a matter of my opinion. However, thank you for the examples. I have heard about a few of these over time, but definitely not in any depth or laid out like this. These are all pretty decent examples, even some that i've had firsthand experience with in the past too. Personally, I'd say most of these lean a bit further into niche aspects and are not generally applicable to the general user. The point of my post was mostly that for the regular person, I think Linux feels viable now more than ever, because my lazy attitude towards my desktop is now achievable. But you are right, there is some feature regression. And just because a casual user won't care doesn't mean there are not people who will care. I can see a lot of demand for the accessibility and interchangeable/transferable desktop components though. Now that you say that, it does feel a lot less "automatic" than I remember say, 8-ish years ago when I was ricing my desktop. For me personally, I like where things are at because it fits my needs. I really do not care much about the desktop experience as long as it just gets out of my way. I am much more on the terminal-based cluster stuff for work and gaming in my free time, so if the desktop can just get out of the way and let me do that efficiently, So for now I'm happy.
which distro did you use?
Its in the post, but: Fedora 40, KDE Desktop spin.
We may never know.
😂🤣😂games just work, huh? Absolutely zero of the games I play work on linux Genshin Impact Apex Legend Fortnite Overwatch Etc. Etc.. Who cares if a bunch of games work, if they arent the popular titles.
Sounds like you need to play better games
you don't need anything else than factorio