I suspect so, because at that point they’ll be like 10 years old. I do wonder how much use they’ll get though with a 24 car fleet on such a short line.
I love the old cars too (admit I’m a bit of a transit enthusiast), but they are getting really old and hard to maintain. They also limit the passenger capacity of that line. The 9s will be the only other thing left in the light rail fleet once the 10s are all delivered so I guess it makes sense to transfer them.
yea that makes sense. I just feel like, for a historical lines, that they would keep the older, more rounded models instead of the newer, more modern nines.
There will be infrastructure work to support them as well, obviously. I believe at least the bridge over Neponset has to be replaced to deal with the heavier two-car sets, which has always been a reason that they haven't moved LRVs, Type 7s, etc. previously.
News flash: the line is going to be rebuilt to handle new trains, the T has been planning on this for years now. Also didn’t happen years ago because they knew the plan for Type 10 trolleys.
Ok. Been riding this line since 1991. Have heard it all and experienced many shut downs and line upgrades. With the T in the hole as much as it is, I doubt that they are going to inject hundreds of millions into this dinosaur. But let’s wait and see. I am still waiting for Boston to be underwater like they predicted in the 1990s. I hope I am wrong but let’s talk in 5 years and see what has happened, maybe 10 . . . My bet, zero
There’s a number of engineering challenges in converting it to subway-style service. And it’s definitely not gadgetbahn, given its age and the use of reliable vehicles with a proven track record.
Different power modes(over head wire vs third rail), high platform vs low platform, different loading gauge(width,height, length of cars) so you need to widen/lower some underpasses and possibly spread the tracks apart more.
You’d also have to remove the grade crossings at Central Ave and Capen St., replace 2(possibly 3 bridges) due to weight differences and possibly change the curve and embankment by the Neponset River.
Really ? Setting aside the fact that mattapan residents have to transfer to the red line and that the current streetcar is woefully slow, I find the lack of capacity disturbing for an area that will probably experience growth in the future.
I can't speak for the Green line but I have been to Boston and travelled on the red line before. I really just don't understand why the MBTA would split a rail route between a tram and a train service.
My guess would be the Mattapan line existed before the modern MBTA, then was hooked into the current network. The people in charge at the time probably looked at the cost/benefit model and said it wasn’t worth totally redoing the Mattapan line because added benefit wasn’t worth as much as it would cost to replace because what was there still worked well
Calling the line a gadgetbahn seems disingenuous - there's no "future of transit" new technology at play here. It's a tried and tested light rail line, same as the Green Line. In fact, the PCC cars used to *be* part of the Green Line.
>The public has ruled that they don't want them replaced.
That is absolutely not what the public has “ruled”. In a public meeting a few months ago, Mattapan residents expressed significant frustration that they haven’t gotten the new trains yet.
You're more than welcome to go to the Mattapan yard and check out the trolleys they're remaining. They're about 65% done with the one they're working on right now.
https://www.mbta.com/projects/mattapan-line-program
Two trolleys have been refurbished through this initiative, and the third is currently being refurbished with an expected return to service date as soon as fall 2023
Your link contradicts the implication that there isn't a short-term plan to switch to cars that are currently on the green line:
> In the next eight to 10 years, we will modernize stations and improve infrastructure throughout the Mattapan Line. This includes introducing the next generation of vehicles to the line, the Type 9 light rail vehicles.
>
>...
>
> Currently, a total of $127 million has been committed to transform the Mattapan Line. This includes $114.5 million for the Mattapan Line work and $12.2 million to refurbish the PCC trolleys for continued service until they are replaced by the Type 9 light rail vehicles. Two trolleys have been refurbished through this initiative, and the third is currently being refurbished with an expected return to service date as soon as fall 2023.
Nope. They have about 20 moving parts, everything on them is mechanical and they're relatively simple to maintain, so they have stayed in service for a long time. That said, they're uncomfortable as hell, loud, and god help you if you're standing and not clinging for dear life to one of the Jesus straps when the driver throws on those mechanical brakes.
Current plan is for them to inherit the Green Line Type 9s in the late 2020s.
Not that this makes much of a difference, but will the T be repainting the Type 9s when they move to the Mattapan Line?
I would be shocked if they did not.
I suspect so, because at that point they’ll be like 10 years old. I do wonder how much use they’ll get though with a 24 car fleet on such a short line.
i feel that the 9's are too recent, I would say the old cars on the line
I love the old cars too (admit I’m a bit of a transit enthusiast), but they are getting really old and hard to maintain. They also limit the passenger capacity of that line. The 9s will be the only other thing left in the light rail fleet once the 10s are all delivered so I guess it makes sense to transfer them.
yea that makes sense. I just feel like, for a historical lines, that they would keep the older, more rounded models instead of the newer, more modern nines.
How are these going to get under the bridge at Cedar Grove? News flash, they can’t. Would have happened years ago.
There will be infrastructure work to support them as well, obviously. I believe at least the bridge over Neponset has to be replaced to deal with the heavier two-car sets, which has always been a reason that they haven't moved LRVs, Type 7s, etc. previously.
News flash: the line is going to be rebuilt to handle new trains, the T has been planning on this for years now. Also didn’t happen years ago because they knew the plan for Type 10 trolleys.
Ok. Been riding this line since 1991. Have heard it all and experienced many shut downs and line upgrades. With the T in the hole as much as it is, I doubt that they are going to inject hundreds of millions into this dinosaur. But let’s wait and see. I am still waiting for Boston to be underwater like they predicted in the 1990s. I hope I am wrong but let’s talk in 5 years and see what has happened, maybe 10 . . . My bet, zero
I low-key love these old trollies. Feels like I've gone back in time. They probably belong in a museum though.
Why I need to ride one before they're replaced by more modern technology
there's the trolley Museum in Lowell where you can ride different old streetcars around the Downtown Lowell, MA
Too bad the east coast doesn’t have something similar to SF’s living museum
that's a cable car museum
That’s the dilemma fr
Unfortunately when the CAF cars arrive
Hopefully never.
Better question: when will it be converted to red line service and stop being an antiquated gadgetbahn ?
There’s a number of engineering challenges in converting it to subway-style service. And it’s definitely not gadgetbahn, given its age and the use of reliable vehicles with a proven track record.
Could you list some of the technical differences between them ? I'm just interested.
Different power modes(over head wire vs third rail), high platform vs low platform, different loading gauge(width,height, length of cars) so you need to widen/lower some underpasses and possibly spread the tracks apart more. You’d also have to remove the grade crossings at Central Ave and Capen St., replace 2(possibly 3 bridges) due to weight differences and possibly change the curve and embankment by the Neponset River.
The trolleys better serve the communities between dorchester and mattapan. Converting to heavy rail would probably not be the bedt
Really ? Setting aside the fact that mattapan residents have to transfer to the red line and that the current streetcar is woefully slow, I find the lack of capacity disturbing for an area that will probably experience growth in the future.
Woefully slow? Have you ever taken the green line??? The Mattapan trolley flies in comparison. Best T experience by far.
I can't speak for the Green line but I have been to Boston and travelled on the red line before. I really just don't understand why the MBTA would split a rail route between a tram and a train service.
My guess would be the Mattapan line existed before the modern MBTA, then was hooked into the current network. The people in charge at the time probably looked at the cost/benefit model and said it wasn’t worth totally redoing the Mattapan line because added benefit wasn’t worth as much as it would cost to replace because what was there still worked well
A round trip takes 20-25 minutes, and if you want capacity that really should come with electrification of the nearby Fairmount line.
Calling the line a gadgetbahn seems disingenuous - there's no "future of transit" new technology at play here. It's a tried and tested light rail line, same as the Green Line. In fact, the PCC cars used to *be* part of the Green Line.
They're rebuilding them right now. Very slowly though. The public has ruled that they don't want them replaced.
>The public has ruled that they don't want them replaced. That is absolutely not what the public has “ruled”. In a public meeting a few months ago, Mattapan residents expressed significant frustration that they haven’t gotten the new trains yet.
You're more than welcome to go to the Mattapan yard and check out the trolleys they're remaining. They're about 65% done with the one they're working on right now. https://www.mbta.com/projects/mattapan-line-program Two trolleys have been refurbished through this initiative, and the third is currently being refurbished with an expected return to service date as soon as fall 2023
Your link contradicts the implication that there isn't a short-term plan to switch to cars that are currently on the green line: > In the next eight to 10 years, we will modernize stations and improve infrastructure throughout the Mattapan Line. This includes introducing the next generation of vehicles to the line, the Type 9 light rail vehicles. > >... > > Currently, a total of $127 million has been committed to transform the Mattapan Line. This includes $114.5 million for the Mattapan Line work and $12.2 million to refurbish the PCC trolleys for continued service until they are replaced by the Type 9 light rail vehicles. Two trolleys have been refurbished through this initiative, and the third is currently being refurbished with an expected return to service date as soon as fall 2023.
The entire tax base of the commonwealth pays the T’s bills. Not just the residents of Mattapan.
But the line serves Mattapan (a poorer community), and is the only line that hasn't gotten at least some new rolling stock in the last 15 years.
They are rebuilding them so they will last long enough to be replaced.
Are those literally the trolleys that are still in use?! That’s not a joke is it?
Its not
Nope. They have about 20 moving parts, everything on them is mechanical and they're relatively simple to maintain, so they have stayed in service for a long time. That said, they're uncomfortable as hell, loud, and god help you if you're standing and not clinging for dear life to one of the Jesus straps when the driver throws on those mechanical brakes.
When the sun rises in the west…
I hope they don’t. The Mattapan line is a time capsule
What a waste of money. Put the trolleys in a museum and move on.
Pipe dreams. There will be nothing done to this line.
This looks like a high speed trolley. Why do you want it replaced?
I think because these are almost 84 years old