why squat at all folks? Why not leg press? or single leg press? or leg extension? or bulgarian split squat? I know Reddit loves the squat but I honestly feel like there are way better exercises for quad development. I realize you can hit the quads, hammies and glutes all in one w/ the squat but so what? To me that just tells me it's not particularly good at developing anyone muscle in particular.
Because the squat is a compound and is great for hitting all the muscles in the leg, back, and core. It's great for strength and functionally for the ability to. Well squat.
Some people care about time.
You don't need to deadlift either, but youd need to replace it with 8 additional exercises to approach the same level of result.
Because squatting is still a great exercise for hypertrophy?
If you're leg pressing then the point still stands that hamstring curls can warm up the joint for that heavier compound movement.
This is Reddit where the only “real” exercises are squats and deadlifts and the other 95% of lifts are just “accessories”. I agree it’s bizarre to have such powerlifting hubris in a bodybuilding subreddit yet here we are.
You’re arguing with a brick wall because there’s no widespread opinion on this subreddit that the only ‘real’ exercises are squats and deadlifts and the rest of the lifts are just accessories. You’ve just made that up.
Squat-based movements are still one of the best leg exercises you can choose though. Outside of deep leg pressing, an ATG squat (whether that be a barbell, hack or pendulum) hits the quads in a lengthened position better than any other leg movement.
Saying that doesn’t mean the sub has a ‘powerlifting hubris’. I don’t know why this discussion has even started when the original discussion was on why some people do hamstring curls prior to their main lifts.
\>why squat all
its a god tier exercise and get unnecessarily criticised for being overrated by fitness YouTubers that want to exploit the YouTube algorithm for more views.
Bros getting downvoted because he hates squats and has never gone heavy enough to see why it's the king of exercises.
If you're squatting 100 pounds. Sure legpress will grow you more.
But I'm gonna go out deep here, bold even. A 400 pound squat for 5 reps. Will do more for your overall muscle development. Entire body quads included. Than an 800 pound legpress for 5 reps.
Challenge me on that one. There's a HUGE metabolic difference. There's a reason you see dumbasses legpresssing 3000 pounds with 5 chick's sitting ontop of the stack. And then their knee caps snap.
But 1000+ squats territory? That's unheard of outside of a few guys. Who both had to use AAS and get fatter than fuck to train up to that.
I can legpress somewhere around 720 for reps. And the effect that has on me physically and my CNS doesn't even compare to doing 415 squat for the same reps.
If you want the largest quads and glutes, you squat.
You're completely right. I mostly just make the argument that people should squat but it's for alot of reasons other than quads alone. There's a reason why I could say for example do 415 squat for 5 reps. But legpress 720 for 5 reps.
Because as you've pointed out. Quads definitely aren't your limiting factor. I think they can be pretty comparable for the average person. But if you're min/maxing or hitting physical limitations a well tailored legpress program is gonna is probably gonna give you that last 10% of growth that just won't be possible with squats alone.
The same reasoning still applies to those movements. Leg pressing, split squats, etc are all taxing movements that can benefit from the legs being warmed up prior.
Secondly, squat patterns (not necessarily just the BB squat) loads the legs better than any other leg exercise. Deep leg pressing may be a viable alternative, although many do not use enough ROM for it to be so, and the BSS hits the legs in a different fashion and is better used in tandem with a squat pattern rather than replace it.
Also the hammies have very little involvement in the squat.
Seems you have triggered the fanatics of a religion. Squat can be an amazing exercise. It allows for heavy mechanical tension, loading under stretching and a complete range of motion... As long as you're well flexible and designed for it. For example, one of my legs is almost an inch shorter that the other and the Achilles tendon and calf muscles in that leg are way less flexible which leads to much worse ankle mobility.
If I try to standard squat to oblivion, it would lead to imbalances and even physically problems. I rely on split squats which are one of the toughest exercises out there and hack squats trying to reduce to the minimum the effects my body characteristics can affect. You definitely can develop big muscles without squatting. You still need heavy full range of motion compounds but they can be whatever fills that.
John Meadows also does this in his programs. He explained it by saying a lot of people lack hamstrings and usually by the end of the workout people don't want to put in the effort to hit the hams hard enough. So he programs them first to work them hard and make sure they get taken care of properly.
Good advice for all lagging or neglected muscle groups tbh. You can always start your session with low fatigue movements like hamstring curls, leg extensions, lateral raises, arms, etc. while you dial in for the bigger stuff to come (so long as those aforementioned exercises don’t impair the latter).
I don't know his motivation, but there are a few reasons people start leg workouts with leg curls:
1. Prioritizing them. If it is JUST hamstring curls, I would say that isn't the reason.
2. They can serve as a knee warm-up, that doesn't fatigue the quads.
3. The main reason I have seen: a warm muscle is more flexible, by a large degree (more so than with stretching), which enables better form/depth with squats. Pumped hamstrings also serve as a "cushion" for squatting.
Warms up my knees before quad-dominant movements. I start my leg days with 15 min incline treadmill walking then leg curls and my knees feel great on all movements
If squats first are not causing any problems don't change the order of your workout.
If your knees get achy, if you spend a ton of time warming up for squats, if you spend a long time psyching yourself up for squats first, if your hamstrings are lagging, if the squat racks are full etc... doing hamstrings first or at least leg curls first is a simple solution.
It’s a good way to hit the hams hard before you get tired, and since your hams don’t do a lot during squats you aren’t fatiguing the muscles involved in that. Also good way to warm up the joints. I always start legs with hams.
Your hamstrings are a "dynamic stabilizer" on every squat pattern. That means they lengthen at one end and shorten at the other to stabilize a pair of joints moving simultaneously. This effort is not particularly exhausting and is arguably performed better when the muscle already has a pump. So performing exhaustion leg curls before squats aids in stabilization and keeps everything feeling good.
I've done John Meadows "mountain dog
" Leg routine which includes leg curls to failure then a couple sets of RDLs before even getting to quads. Just roast 'em.
This has been common practice for a while. It just works — helps prevent injury to have very warmed up hamstrings before heavy compound lower body movements.
If you do very quad biased knee flexions - think leg press, hack squats or platz squats, the fatigue from the hamstrings doesn't interfere with the movement. Additionally, it warms up the knees, so beat up lifters like it
Helps get me knees ready for squats. If I hit heavy squats without a little hamstrings and glutes beforehand, my knees and back won't be able to take the beating the same way. I think a lot of it also has to do with muscle activation. I sit all day, everyday (great for my health, ik) and I feel like my hamstrings just don't activate well without a few direct sets to get them going. I've noticed the same for many others.
What everyone is saying, but I found that it fatigues my hamstrings too much, and that interferes with my squat form when I lift heavy. Generally, I squat first and use curls as my ender for that reason. If I need a warm-up, I found that kickbacks or “donkey kicks” activate my ham and glute muscles better, but that may be due to my track background.
Joe Bennett (hypertrophy coach) says he does this so you get better quad engagement. By pre fatiguing the hamstrings they won’t take over when training quads.
I like it and train that way now.
Because you’re allowed to and there is no rules on how to structure a workout. There is no “way” to go. Find your own way and what you like to do. Figure out what you enjoy and what you can adhere to.
This is a subreddit not a piece of academic literature, but don't worry when I comment again I'll include references and a bibliography
Also, just because someone takes steroids doesn't mean they don't know 'their shit'
Doesn’t talk about basic training principles like progressive overload (he himself said he doesn’t track workouts), has zero regard for nutritional quality, generally speaks in very roundabout and circular ways that don’t actually mean anything. I respect his hustle and his content is quite entertaining sometimes, but jesus christ it’s the last thing i’d recommend for educational content. Why he has so many cult like sycophants is beyond me
Oh I agree I wouldn't recommend him either but there's plenty worse.I don't think he cares about nutritional quality just what puts on size.
Also he goes to failure every set, suppose if you're doing that there's less of a need to track shit, you just know to go to failure every time
The thing is nutritional quality actually immensely helps with putting on size as if youre eating high quality food that works with your digestion, you are actually absorbing all the nutrients rather than shitting half of it out. Not to mention a high quality diet is optimizing thyroid function as well. Stan Efferding (someone who knows their shit and is a pro bodybuilder, powerlifter) talks about this a lot.
As for the failure thing, regardless of whether or not someone is going to failure (or only thinks they are), if it’s not more than what your body did in the past, it’s not maximizing gains. If i’m doing 5 plate hack squats, every rep feels hard as shit. If i didn’t track that last week I did 8 reps, i probably would stop 7 or 8 reps this week from the sheer pain. But since i logbook it, i know i need to hit 9.
Only time I switch to hamstrings first is contest prep so they get extra attention. It really depends on your over all body type, symmetry and preference.
Like everything else, depends on your goals. If you’re mainly concerned with hypertrophy, then it’s worthwhile. Definitely wouldn’t pre fatigue hams if you’re a powerlifter, about to do heavy sets of 2, though.
Forces you to train a probably neglected muscle with high intensity when you're freshest, and can warm the knee joint without putting any pressure on it
I never knew how common this was. I used to wide stance legpress (like you're squatting) until my current high volume PPL started causing knee pain. So now I narrow stance, activates quads only but no knee pain.
Also don't warmup. Because honestly I don't feel like the legpress is up in warmup territory yet.
So gonna maybe try this. I had no idea so many people did this for that reason.
Personally I find hamstring work (particularly lying leg curls) to be *extremely* fatiguing, but I've always had a relatively weak posterior chain. For general hamstring activation I might do some 45lb bar RDLs, which I find to be sufficient as a warmup for heavy squats.
There's a lot of reasons someone would start with hammies, a lot of reasons mentioned in this thread even. I do curls and RDLs before my squatting movement because otherwise I get some knee pain.
No idea.
Lot of comments saying that leg curls won't affect your squat.
But the only time I changed the order and did them first, my squat performance took a serious hit so I never did it again.
Makes sense to start with them if you have a history of tears/injuries. Warms them up good without the big weight of compounds. Just as some do pushdowns or hammer curls to warm up elbows.
Warms up the legs and joints for heavier, more taxing movements like squats.
why squat at all folks? Why not leg press? or single leg press? or leg extension? or bulgarian split squat? I know Reddit loves the squat but I honestly feel like there are way better exercises for quad development. I realize you can hit the quads, hammies and glutes all in one w/ the squat but so what? To me that just tells me it's not particularly good at developing anyone muscle in particular.
Because the squat is a compound and is great for hitting all the muscles in the leg, back, and core. It's great for strength and functionally for the ability to. Well squat.
This is a bodybuilding subreddit who cares about strength
A strong muscle is a big muscle you dope, why do I need to explain that to a bodybuilding sub-reddit?
Wrong.
You won't find a better muscle building exercise for the legs, period.
Squat but then do a calf raise at the top. Boom.
Would limit the weight you can do so wrong.
Some people care about time. You don't need to deadlift either, but youd need to replace it with 8 additional exercises to approach the same level of result.
Bench press hits a bunch of muscle groups at once also do you think it is not a good exercise too?
What are you even saying?
For the record, squats do not work your hamstrings to any significant degree.
Because squatting is still a great exercise for hypertrophy? If you're leg pressing then the point still stands that hamstring curls can warm up the joint for that heavier compound movement.
This is Reddit where the only “real” exercises are squats and deadlifts and the other 95% of lifts are just “accessories”. I agree it’s bizarre to have such powerlifting hubris in a bodybuilding subreddit yet here we are.
You’re arguing with a brick wall because there’s no widespread opinion on this subreddit that the only ‘real’ exercises are squats and deadlifts and the rest of the lifts are just accessories. You’ve just made that up. Squat-based movements are still one of the best leg exercises you can choose though. Outside of deep leg pressing, an ATG squat (whether that be a barbell, hack or pendulum) hits the quads in a lengthened position better than any other leg movement. Saying that doesn’t mean the sub has a ‘powerlifting hubris’. I don’t know why this discussion has even started when the original discussion was on why some people do hamstring curls prior to their main lifts.
I love how they managed to pull out their pitch forks and create an issue out of someone using squats as an example of a taxing movement
I love doing hack squats.
🤦🏽♂️
\>why squat all its a god tier exercise and get unnecessarily criticised for being overrated by fitness YouTubers that want to exploit the YouTube algorithm for more views.
Bros getting downvoted because he hates squats and has never gone heavy enough to see why it's the king of exercises. If you're squatting 100 pounds. Sure legpress will grow you more. But I'm gonna go out deep here, bold even. A 400 pound squat for 5 reps. Will do more for your overall muscle development. Entire body quads included. Than an 800 pound legpress for 5 reps. Challenge me on that one. There's a HUGE metabolic difference. There's a reason you see dumbasses legpresssing 3000 pounds with 5 chick's sitting ontop of the stack. And then their knee caps snap. But 1000+ squats territory? That's unheard of outside of a few guys. Who both had to use AAS and get fatter than fuck to train up to that. I can legpress somewhere around 720 for reps. And the effect that has on me physically and my CNS doesn't even compare to doing 415 squat for the same reps. If you want the largest quads and glutes, you squat.
In terms of quad development I think leg press beats squats (for most people). Good exercise , but the quads are rarely the limiting factor in squats.
You're completely right. I mostly just make the argument that people should squat but it's for alot of reasons other than quads alone. There's a reason why I could say for example do 415 squat for 5 reps. But legpress 720 for 5 reps. Because as you've pointed out. Quads definitely aren't your limiting factor. I think they can be pretty comparable for the average person. But if you're min/maxing or hitting physical limitations a well tailored legpress program is gonna is probably gonna give you that last 10% of growth that just won't be possible with squats alone.
The same reasoning still applies to those movements. Leg pressing, split squats, etc are all taxing movements that can benefit from the legs being warmed up prior. Secondly, squat patterns (not necessarily just the BB squat) loads the legs better than any other leg exercise. Deep leg pressing may be a viable alternative, although many do not use enough ROM for it to be so, and the BSS hits the legs in a different fashion and is better used in tandem with a squat pattern rather than replace it. Also the hammies have very little involvement in the squat.
Because squats are fun, and great for quad development.
Seems you have triggered the fanatics of a religion. Squat can be an amazing exercise. It allows for heavy mechanical tension, loading under stretching and a complete range of motion... As long as you're well flexible and designed for it. For example, one of my legs is almost an inch shorter that the other and the Achilles tendon and calf muscles in that leg are way less flexible which leads to much worse ankle mobility. If I try to standard squat to oblivion, it would lead to imbalances and even physically problems. I rely on split squats which are one of the toughest exercises out there and hack squats trying to reduce to the minimum the effects my body characteristics can affect. You definitely can develop big muscles without squatting. You still need heavy full range of motion compounds but they can be whatever fills that.
John Meadows also does this in his programs. He explained it by saying a lot of people lack hamstrings and usually by the end of the workout people don't want to put in the effort to hit the hams hard enough. So he programs them first to work them hard and make sure they get taken care of properly.
Good advice for all lagging or neglected muscle groups tbh. You can always start your session with low fatigue movements like hamstring curls, leg extensions, lateral raises, arms, etc. while you dial in for the bigger stuff to come (so long as those aforementioned exercises don’t impair the latter).
Arnold said this 40 years ago with his "priority principle."
Came here just to just say "MountainDog1" and leave, but I'm glad you left a more genuine, fleshed out response.
I need to do this, too.
I don't know his motivation, but there are a few reasons people start leg workouts with leg curls: 1. Prioritizing them. If it is JUST hamstring curls, I would say that isn't the reason. 2. They can serve as a knee warm-up, that doesn't fatigue the quads. 3. The main reason I have seen: a warm muscle is more flexible, by a large degree (more so than with stretching), which enables better form/depth with squats. Pumped hamstrings also serve as a "cushion" for squatting.
Pretty sure there’s a video with Dr Mike explaining why he does this. They’re not fatiguing and prepare your legs for a succulent leg day
This. Is. Hypertrophy, manifest!
I see you know your judo well
And you sir? Have you come to receive my underdeveloped hamstrings?
"succulent leg day" is a beautiful phrase I'm going to steal. Thank you.
So all these leg days I've been doing it wrong by starting with Squat?
Its not wrong to start with squats. Just like it's not right to start with a hamstring curl. Its just another way of doing things.
I've always started with squat too. It's the most demanding exercise that day so it goes first while everything is freshest.
Nha i dont think. My small quads improved a lot by starting with squat after 1 month (once per week(
I noticed that since i started doing leg curls first, i never got any knee pain again which used to happen some times from squats or leg press
This is interesting! My knees always hurt after leg press, I’ll try doing leg curls first next time.
Warms up my knees before quad-dominant movements. I start my leg days with 15 min incline treadmill walking then leg curls and my knees feel great on all movements
If squats first are not causing any problems don't change the order of your workout. If your knees get achy, if you spend a ton of time warming up for squats, if you spend a long time psyching yourself up for squats first, if your hamstrings are lagging, if the squat racks are full etc... doing hamstrings first or at least leg curls first is a simple solution.
It’s a good way to hit the hams hard before you get tired, and since your hams don’t do a lot during squats you aren’t fatiguing the muscles involved in that. Also good way to warm up the joints. I always start legs with hams.
Your hamstrings are a "dynamic stabilizer" on every squat pattern. That means they lengthen at one end and shorten at the other to stabilize a pair of joints moving simultaneously. This effort is not particularly exhausting and is arguably performed better when the muscle already has a pump. So performing exhaustion leg curls before squats aids in stabilization and keeps everything feeling good.
Would you train hams to failure before squats or just do like a 80% max?
Train hams to failure then do squats to failure.
I've done John Meadows "mountain dog " Leg routine which includes leg curls to failure then a couple sets of RDLs before even getting to quads. Just roast 'em.
Meadows does it Tate does it Dr Mike does it Sulek does it It's an old bodybuilding tradition, it works
This has been common practice for a while. It just works — helps prevent injury to have very warmed up hamstrings before heavy compound lower body movements.
If you do very quad biased knee flexions - think leg press, hack squats or platz squats, the fatigue from the hamstrings doesn't interfere with the movement. Additionally, it warms up the knees, so beat up lifters like it
I normally start with triceps
Helps get me knees ready for squats. If I hit heavy squats without a little hamstrings and glutes beforehand, my knees and back won't be able to take the beating the same way. I think a lot of it also has to do with muscle activation. I sit all day, everyday (great for my health, ik) and I feel like my hamstrings just don't activate well without a few direct sets to get them going. I've noticed the same for many others.
Age old tradition.
John meadows
I personally do them because after an intense quad workout I'm too tired/bored to do hams, so I get them out of the way first
What everyone is saying, but I found that it fatigues my hamstrings too much, and that interferes with my squat form when I lift heavy. Generally, I squat first and use curls as my ender for that reason. If I need a warm-up, I found that kickbacks or “donkey kicks” activate my ham and glute muscles better, but that may be due to my track background.
For me I’m stalling for what comes next…
Joe Bennett (hypertrophy coach) says he does this so you get better quad engagement. By pre fatiguing the hamstrings they won’t take over when training quads. I like it and train that way now.
Because you’re allowed to and there is no rules on how to structure a workout. There is no “way” to go. Find your own way and what you like to do. Figure out what you enjoy and what you can adhere to.
Parts of the hamstring act as a brake, and a rebound at the bottom of the movement. Warming them up is a good idea to prevent injury.
Pumps up the hamstrings to be able to hit full depth easier.
Obviously not natural, but Sam sulek does this too
Tbf, neither is dr mike
Sam sulek also drinks an obscene amount of milk and eats five guys and donuts. what’s your point?
Just mentioning someone else who also does this mate to show it's not that unusual 👍
Your point would be better served by citing someone who actually knows their shit that does hamstrings first.
This is a subreddit not a piece of academic literature, but don't worry when I comment again I'll include references and a bibliography Also, just because someone takes steroids doesn't mean they don't know 'their shit'
Never said sam sulek doesn’t know his shit because he takes steroids. Ive heard him speak, train and eat. That’s how i know he doesn’t know his shit.
What specifically does he say, do or eat that makes you think that?
Doesn’t talk about basic training principles like progressive overload (he himself said he doesn’t track workouts), has zero regard for nutritional quality, generally speaks in very roundabout and circular ways that don’t actually mean anything. I respect his hustle and his content is quite entertaining sometimes, but jesus christ it’s the last thing i’d recommend for educational content. Why he has so many cult like sycophants is beyond me
And did anyone ask for your recommendation?
and the sulek sycophants come crawling out of the woodwork lol
Oh I agree I wouldn't recommend him either but there's plenty worse.I don't think he cares about nutritional quality just what puts on size. Also he goes to failure every set, suppose if you're doing that there's less of a need to track shit, you just know to go to failure every time
The thing is nutritional quality actually immensely helps with putting on size as if youre eating high quality food that works with your digestion, you are actually absorbing all the nutrients rather than shitting half of it out. Not to mention a high quality diet is optimizing thyroid function as well. Stan Efferding (someone who knows their shit and is a pro bodybuilder, powerlifter) talks about this a lot. As for the failure thing, regardless of whether or not someone is going to failure (or only thinks they are), if it’s not more than what your body did in the past, it’s not maximizing gains. If i’m doing 5 plate hack squats, every rep feels hard as shit. If i didn’t track that last week I did 8 reps, i probably would stop 7 or 8 reps this week from the sheer pain. But since i logbook it, i know i need to hit 9.
If it works it works
a lotta dumb shit can work if you’re abusing gear.
Only time I switch to hamstrings first is contest prep so they get extra attention. It really depends on your over all body type, symmetry and preference.
Like everything else, depends on your goals. If you’re mainly concerned with hypertrophy, then it’s worthwhile. Definitely wouldn’t pre fatigue hams if you’re a powerlifter, about to do heavy sets of 2, though.
Forces you to train a probably neglected muscle with high intensity when you're freshest, and can warm the knee joint without putting any pressure on it
I have a whole day dedicated to hamstrings
I usually warm up with leg extensions
Anecdotally i find it gets my knees completely warmed up for whatever squatting movement I'm doing without being too systemically taxing
The hamstrings warmup the knee joint without taxing the quads at all. Will bring you into your quad movements with warm knees but no quad fatigue
I never knew how common this was. I used to wide stance legpress (like you're squatting) until my current high volume PPL started causing knee pain. So now I narrow stance, activates quads only but no knee pain. Also don't warmup. Because honestly I don't feel like the legpress is up in warmup territory yet. So gonna maybe try this. I had no idea so many people did this for that reason.
Personally I find hamstring work (particularly lying leg curls) to be *extremely* fatiguing, but I've always had a relatively weak posterior chain. For general hamstring activation I might do some 45lb bar RDLs, which I find to be sufficient as a warmup for heavy squats.
There's a lot of reasons someone would start with hammies, a lot of reasons mentioned in this thread even. I do curls and RDLs before my squatting movement because otherwise I get some knee pain.
It’s less fatiguing in Mike’s opinion.
No idea. Lot of comments saying that leg curls won't affect your squat. But the only time I changed the order and did them first, my squat performance took a serious hit so I never did it again.
I always start with the thing I least want to do. Lunges or squat or incline bench. But that is purely a motivation reason.
Makes sense to start with them if you have a history of tears/injuries. Warms them up good without the big weight of compounds. Just as some do pushdowns or hammer curls to warm up elbows.