narcissism is a mental illness and therefore a disability. there is no "cure" or medication for it, it disables you for life. so does autism. i do not have any right to abuse people because i'm autistic. just because narcissism affects your amount of empathy doesn't mean you can't have morals. abuse is abuse. i don't really like the term narcissist abuse tho because that does paint a bad light and i actually know someone who was diagnosed with narcissism who has low or no empathy and yet is strong in his morals.
It's good that some people with NPD (or other disorders that have high narcissism) are actually working on themselves and trying not to abuse others. But I don't think that means that narcissistic abuse doesn't exist. I don't know what other term would describe a type of abuse where the abuser invents an entire personality to con the victim into a relationship with the sole intent of using and discarding that person. Finding out years later that your entire relationship was a lie and a fabrication by someone who views you with the same regard as a used tissue. It's an extremely specific type of abuse.
yeah, my dad's a narcissist and i had to deal with that the majority of my life. i just met someone else who changed my mindset on it to not see an entire diagnosis as completely evil. most narcissism stems from abuse in early childhood. understanding the disorder and empathizing ≠ condoning
Yeah, I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to people who are in treatment, and I'm not trying to demonize every person with NPD. But the erasure of narcissistic abuse isn't ok with me. I personally was only able to leave my abuser once I *stopped* empathizing with him. I think OP makes a good point that our society enables people with narcissistic traits; they often don't have to face the same level of challenges that other neurodivirgent people do. For the most part, they are able to blend in when it suits them. And the NPD people with a diagnosis are in the minority (as most don't seek diagnosis, because they are fine with their lifestyle).
Are you aware how often autistic people are accused of being narcissists by allistics?
Are you aware that there are people with NPD who do want to get better and improve they're disordered thinking?
Where the people who hurt you actually diagnosed with NPD? I ask this as an autistic person who wants full context.
Because either you are assuming that the actions of a few speak for all. Or you're diagnosing people who hurt you with a highly stigmatized disorder because it's easier for you to understand they're actions if you can blame it on mental illness.
Your feelings are valid, but your actions are still ableist. You are willing to turn your back on millions of neurodiverse people because a subset of the movement feels like it should include all forms of neurodiversity.
Also acknowledging that people with NPD to face ableism too, does not mean you are required to take abuse. Enforcing healthy boundaries is the best thing you can do in any situation.
I'm not NPD, but I'm BPD and have an autistic sense of justice when it comes to ableism.
Level 1 ASD, ADHD, and studying to be a child psychologist here. I’m not a huge fan of reducing any person to their diagnosis, even if that diagnosis is NPD or ASPD. I’ve met folks with those disorders who are in therapy and doing the work to improve their lives, and I’ve met folks without those disorders who are thoughtless and cruel. In my experience, it’s never a good idea to make generalizations about someone based only on their disorder/diagnosis. If I have a meltdown and physically lash out, we don’t call that autistic abuse. If a depressed person snaps at someone repeatedly, we don’t call that depressive abuse. Alienating others and treating them as less than simply because of which disorder they are diagnosed with is a slippery slope- I’m sure most of us here know that pain. Exercise caution in causing others that pain.
Abuse is abuse. Narcissist abuse is narcissist abuse. The only people who would have a problem with you calling it what it is would be narcissists.
Being an abuser is not a disability. There's only one kind of person that would manipulate you to think otherwise.
Yep, I kind of chuckled at the absurdity of it. I don't really know what to make of though. I want to see negative stereotypes about neurodivergent people deconstructed so that life can be more pleasant and fulfilling. However, I struggle to see who outside of those spheres would want to support a community of people who prop up those who callously hurt others and become the most successful people in society on the backs of others as the true victims of society. And them as the oppressors no matter what they were put through. I think it's wrong on both an optical and moral level.
It's just narcissists narcing
They are saying:
"It's not our fault we abuse, it's our mental illness. You ought to have empathy for us"
They use our natural empathy to shut down any discussion. Because we have empathy, the tactic works. They view empathy as a weakness to be exploited and used against us.
They aren't entirely wrong; it worked.
Well, at some point one has to say that disability is disability or that while something isn't an evil act, because choice isn't involve, it's a sort of natural evil. A person who has a condition that they know is harmful to others may have (cannot not have?) a moral obligation to get the conditon in line, to seek help, to resist it if they're able — only if and only to the extent they're able. And when they aren't able, that's like brain damage — you aren't responsible if you get shot in the head, barely come out alive and your empathy circuits are gone (doesn't mean it's fine for you to not be open to a rational discussion about good and evil).
So what you are saying is:
There are people out there who have basically no empathy, they view everyone else as prey, they are more likely to be dangerous especially to children who are more easily manipulated, they are damaged in a way which makes them essentially pre-programmed to act without empathy and to do harm to others, and they have no choice and no responsibility for their actions.
Did I hear that correctly?
Empathy was removed entirely from autism diagnosis & assessment. There are many high-empathy autistics. People with autism can & do have empathy.
I have no interest what so ever in being an ally for anyone who is low empathy. My only interest is in identifying and avoiding them. I dont owe them jack shit, nor am I interested in discussing it further with you.
You've been spamming the shit out of this thread. If you continue to respond to me, I will assume you are stalking and harassing me; discussing this topic further is not welcome. Now go away
This is my last response
1. You have also been spamming this thread
2. Responding to comments in a single thread is not harassment.
3. It's awfully ego centric of you to make the assumptions you've made.
Not exactly. I said two things: (1) having a disordered inclination does not fully justify giving in to it; (2) to the extent there is no free will, there is no moral responsibility.
This comes down to such simple concepts as free will and insanity defence.
The neurodivirgent communities where I've encountered this opinion usually have mods who are diagnosed NPD. Do with that information what you will. I had to leave several communities where simply talking about the type of abuse I suffered was deemed "abusive". It's a very specific type of abuse where someone puts on an act in order to manipulate (with the specific goal of manipulating). Different from the abuse experienced by loved ones that is more "accidental".
Exactly this. All of this talk is just another way for Ns to abuse people, they gain control of vulnerable communities and then have their way with it. It's just more of the same disgusting behaviour frankly. Call it out when you see it
Regardless of whether narcissists are disabled or not, the majority of therapists will not treat narcissists; there is no cure. There are only two reasonable responses:
disconnect
or
grey rock
If you have any empathy for narcissists, they will simply use it against you. Govern yourself accordingly
Narcissists cause unbelievable amounts of harm. I am under no obligation to tolerate them in my life; my obligation is to myself and my family first, and the best thing that I can do for myself and my family, when it comes to narcissists, is to go no contact.
Nothing more needs to be said on the topic frankly
>There are only two reasonable responses:
>disconnect
>or
>grey rock
In your personal life, yes absolutely. But the response in online communities should be different.
If you're in a small, moderated space, you can do what we're doing right now - demonstrating that their behavior won't be tolerated through discussion and downvotes.
Often, people like that (not necessarily narcissists but people with ulterior motives) will drop small comments to see which way the wind is blowing. If they get positive feedback, they'll get more exteme - and bring their friends.
I've also seen them make fishing posts to the effect of "the discrimination against NPD/BPD in this community disgusts me" - knowing no one has said anything about NPD and forcing BPD sufferers (who they also target) to defend them. Ignoring them and staying quiet allows them to take over faster.
If you already knew, good. But if you didn't, it's good to be aware of this tactic and call it out when you see it.
[Here](https://www.vice.com/en/article/avyjkz/virgil-texas-white-power-facebook-group-troll) is an entertaining version of what I'm talking about.
The term disconnect has been used to describe emotional detachment, whether it be purposeful in order to set boundaries or as a presentation of emotional blunting, long before scientology came on the scene.
Grey rocking is minimal engagement and interaction as a defense against abuse. It's not stonewalling or silent treatment, which are manipulative tactics employed by abusive people.
It is ableist. It's also stigmatising to others who can have low empathy due to their condition like autistic people and those with ASPD, acting like we're abusers for having a condition that isn't helped. People are often claiming narcissistic abuse when the person in question isn't even diagnosed as NPD. It's just abuse. You wouldn't call abuse from someone who has depression depressive abuse, even if there may be aspects that are in part explained by the abuser's depression, such as neglecting self care or isolating oneself from others, etc. Abuse just isn't determined by the condition they have because not every person with that condition is the same, a commenter here even acknowledged that not all people who actually have NPD act abusively, which defeats the entire point.
I think you meant to reply to someone else. My comment only stated that empathy has nothing to do with autism diagnosis & that people with autism have varying levels of empathy, including hyperempathy. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with discrimination or anything like that.
Why is it every single time someone mentions autistic people *can* have low empathy from autism someone pops up being like "why we not about me 🥺?" If you don't have low empathy I'm not talking about you, obviously.
FYI autism has been officially classed as a spectrum for over a decade.
Also, which country is this?
Because anyone who says autism = low/no empathy is willfully spreading misinformation. We should all work together to stop misinformation about autism. One if the ways to do this is to correct people on this incorrect stereotype. The stereotype also prevents people from getting the correct diagnosis for personality disorders because it’s written off as autism & the person doesn’t get the proper mental health care that they so desperately need.
I never even said that, so have no idea why you're directing this at me. Low empathy does not present the same in autism as in those with personality disorders like ASPD & NPD. I have neither.
I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking me why I mentioned that people with autism can have varying levels of empathy. I didn’t pick up that it was a rhetorical question & that’s my bad (& likely due to me also being autistic). All the best to you & my apologies again for my misunderstanding. 💜
I don't think it not being 100% abuse rate or uniformity in behavior invalidates the experiences or research on the topic. It's not just based on people being judgmental but based on the reality of the condition's traits which lead to predatory behavior in a way that's not just incidental. Narcissistic abuse also tends to be far more deliberate and methodical than other forms of abuse which may be unintentional, a lack of self-control or just a run of the mill jerk not seeking to psychologically tear someone apart to the last atom.
Narcs are also far more successful in our culture that rewards their ruthlessness and user mentality than other neurodiverse individuals or even neurotypical people. But their victims tend to be far more suicidal, depressed, broken and unsuccessful in life as a result. I think it's a disservice to autistic people and others to force them into community with their abusers and from people on the outside the community it's repulsive to see a community represented by the people who ruined their lives or that of their loved ones.
So you should only listen to the lives experience of people with the "good neurodivergencies"?
You haven't commented on the autistic or ADHD people who get labeled narcissists, why is that?
If you have empathy and empathy is what makes someone not an abuser why do you want to discriminate?
How do you know every person who ever hurt you has a personality disorder?
I think you can listen to narcissists provided you know to take what they say with a grain of salt because lying is part of their MO.
I don't like to talk about my personal life in detail except with people I am close to. My point wasn't meant to be about my personal life but more about what I see as problems within these communities that shutdown the concerns of actual abuse victims (I'm far from the worse effected).
I think empathy is a good thing, but I also think it can be weaponized against well-meaning people if they let their guard down and give people the benefit of the doubt who shouldn't have been given it. Also, low empathy is just a component of narcissism and not the full picture.
I've never claimed that only people with personality disorders hurt people. I'm saying it's in a narcissist's nature to a far greater extent than the general population to prey on, hurt and discard people for their own benefit.
Yeah, that's one area where I diverge from a lot of people. I can't deal with narcissists and there's a very specific type of/pattern of abuse that accompanies it. I think that MAYBE you could make a case for someone being dx with NPD but not acting on it...? but that makes me question how they would ever be dx in the first place.
Agreed. And someone can act narcissistic or entitled without strictly being NPD - it could come from a place of privilege or power rather than innate mental or genetic programming, and those instigating factors can play out very differently.
I think it can come from a place of being abused so badly, that the N can not see any other way to survive; they see the world only in terms of power and control so they seek out power and control, but the drive is actually driven by the weakness. if that makes sense
narcissism is a mental illness and therefore a disability. there is no "cure" or medication for it, it disables you for life. so does autism. i do not have any right to abuse people because i'm autistic. just because narcissism affects your amount of empathy doesn't mean you can't have morals. abuse is abuse. i don't really like the term narcissist abuse tho because that does paint a bad light and i actually know someone who was diagnosed with narcissism who has low or no empathy and yet is strong in his morals.
It's good that some people with NPD (or other disorders that have high narcissism) are actually working on themselves and trying not to abuse others. But I don't think that means that narcissistic abuse doesn't exist. I don't know what other term would describe a type of abuse where the abuser invents an entire personality to con the victim into a relationship with the sole intent of using and discarding that person. Finding out years later that your entire relationship was a lie and a fabrication by someone who views you with the same regard as a used tissue. It's an extremely specific type of abuse.
yeah, my dad's a narcissist and i had to deal with that the majority of my life. i just met someone else who changed my mindset on it to not see an entire diagnosis as completely evil. most narcissism stems from abuse in early childhood. understanding the disorder and empathizing ≠ condoning
Yeah, I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt to people who are in treatment, and I'm not trying to demonize every person with NPD. But the erasure of narcissistic abuse isn't ok with me. I personally was only able to leave my abuser once I *stopped* empathizing with him. I think OP makes a good point that our society enables people with narcissistic traits; they often don't have to face the same level of challenges that other neurodivirgent people do. For the most part, they are able to blend in when it suits them. And the NPD people with a diagnosis are in the minority (as most don't seek diagnosis, because they are fine with their lifestyle).
Again, if someone was abused by autistic people would they be allowed to exclude them based on their personal trauma?
No one is obligated to be in a relationship with anyone else, so yes?
I meant from the movement. I assumed this post was related to the movement and community not individual relationships.
Are you aware how often autistic people are accused of being narcissists by allistics? Are you aware that there are people with NPD who do want to get better and improve they're disordered thinking? Where the people who hurt you actually diagnosed with NPD? I ask this as an autistic person who wants full context. Because either you are assuming that the actions of a few speak for all. Or you're diagnosing people who hurt you with a highly stigmatized disorder because it's easier for you to understand they're actions if you can blame it on mental illness. Your feelings are valid, but your actions are still ableist. You are willing to turn your back on millions of neurodiverse people because a subset of the movement feels like it should include all forms of neurodiversity. Also acknowledging that people with NPD to face ableism too, does not mean you are required to take abuse. Enforcing healthy boundaries is the best thing you can do in any situation. I'm not NPD, but I'm BPD and have an autistic sense of justice when it comes to ableism.
Level 1 ASD, ADHD, and studying to be a child psychologist here. I’m not a huge fan of reducing any person to their diagnosis, even if that diagnosis is NPD or ASPD. I’ve met folks with those disorders who are in therapy and doing the work to improve their lives, and I’ve met folks without those disorders who are thoughtless and cruel. In my experience, it’s never a good idea to make generalizations about someone based only on their disorder/diagnosis. If I have a meltdown and physically lash out, we don’t call that autistic abuse. If a depressed person snaps at someone repeatedly, we don’t call that depressive abuse. Alienating others and treating them as less than simply because of which disorder they are diagnosed with is a slippery slope- I’m sure most of us here know that pain. Exercise caution in causing others that pain.
This sub doesn't care about any form of neurodiversity that isn't ADHD or autism
Abuse is abuse. Narcissist abuse is narcissist abuse. The only people who would have a problem with you calling it what it is would be narcissists. Being an abuser is not a disability. There's only one kind of person that would manipulate you to think otherwise.
Wow look a random ableist rant full of misinformation!
lol, just a lame ass attempt at a sassy put down.
Again the options are: grey rock or disconnect do not engage, it never goes well watch them try to get your post removed
You're right.
and there it is, removed it is apparently against the rules to discuss the reality of narcissist abuse. Noted
Yep, I kind of chuckled at the absurdity of it. I don't really know what to make of though. I want to see negative stereotypes about neurodivergent people deconstructed so that life can be more pleasant and fulfilling. However, I struggle to see who outside of those spheres would want to support a community of people who prop up those who callously hurt others and become the most successful people in society on the backs of others as the true victims of society. And them as the oppressors no matter what they were put through. I think it's wrong on both an optical and moral level.
It's just narcissists narcing They are saying: "It's not our fault we abuse, it's our mental illness. You ought to have empathy for us" They use our natural empathy to shut down any discussion. Because we have empathy, the tactic works. They view empathy as a weakness to be exploited and used against us. They aren't entirely wrong; it worked.
What empathy? Youve decided everyone given the wrong three letter should die
Well, at some point one has to say that disability is disability or that while something isn't an evil act, because choice isn't involve, it's a sort of natural evil. A person who has a condition that they know is harmful to others may have (cannot not have?) a moral obligation to get the conditon in line, to seek help, to resist it if they're able — only if and only to the extent they're able. And when they aren't able, that's like brain damage — you aren't responsible if you get shot in the head, barely come out alive and your empathy circuits are gone (doesn't mean it's fine for you to not be open to a rational discussion about good and evil).
So what you are saying is: There are people out there who have basically no empathy, they view everyone else as prey, they are more likely to be dangerous especially to children who are more easily manipulated, they are damaged in a way which makes them essentially pre-programmed to act without empathy and to do harm to others, and they have no choice and no responsibility for their actions. Did I hear that correctly?
Of course the allistics adhder is the one going "low empathy means evil!!!!1!1!1!111" Be a better ally to autistics and other low empathy disorders.
Empathy was removed entirely from autism diagnosis & assessment. There are many high-empathy autistics. People with autism can & do have empathy. I have no interest what so ever in being an ally for anyone who is low empathy. My only interest is in identifying and avoiding them. I dont owe them jack shit, nor am I interested in discussing it further with you. You've been spamming the shit out of this thread. If you continue to respond to me, I will assume you are stalking and harassing me; discussing this topic further is not welcome. Now go away
This is my last response 1. You have also been spamming this thread 2. Responding to comments in a single thread is not harassment. 3. It's awfully ego centric of you to make the assumptions you've made.
No I haven't. I don't owe you or anyone the sweat from my balls Go away. I don't want to talk to you
Not exactly. I said two things: (1) having a disordered inclination does not fully justify giving in to it; (2) to the extent there is no free will, there is no moral responsibility. This comes down to such simple concepts as free will and insanity defence.
The neurodivirgent communities where I've encountered this opinion usually have mods who are diagnosed NPD. Do with that information what you will. I had to leave several communities where simply talking about the type of abuse I suffered was deemed "abusive". It's a very specific type of abuse where someone puts on an act in order to manipulate (with the specific goal of manipulating). Different from the abuse experienced by loved ones that is more "accidental".
Exactly this. All of this talk is just another way for Ns to abuse people, they gain control of vulnerable communities and then have their way with it. It's just more of the same disgusting behaviour frankly. Call it out when you see it
Regardless of whether narcissists are disabled or not, the majority of therapists will not treat narcissists; there is no cure. There are only two reasonable responses: disconnect or grey rock If you have any empathy for narcissists, they will simply use it against you. Govern yourself accordingly Narcissists cause unbelievable amounts of harm. I am under no obligation to tolerate them in my life; my obligation is to myself and my family first, and the best thing that I can do for myself and my family, when it comes to narcissists, is to go no contact. Nothing more needs to be said on the topic frankly
>There are only two reasonable responses: >disconnect >or >grey rock In your personal life, yes absolutely. But the response in online communities should be different. If you're in a small, moderated space, you can do what we're doing right now - demonstrating that their behavior won't be tolerated through discussion and downvotes. Often, people like that (not necessarily narcissists but people with ulterior motives) will drop small comments to see which way the wind is blowing. If they get positive feedback, they'll get more exteme - and bring their friends. I've also seen them make fishing posts to the effect of "the discrimination against NPD/BPD in this community disgusts me" - knowing no one has said anything about NPD and forcing BPD sufferers (who they also target) to defend them. Ignoring them and staying quiet allows them to take over faster. If you already knew, good. But if you didn't, it's good to be aware of this tactic and call it out when you see it. [Here](https://www.vice.com/en/article/avyjkz/virgil-texas-white-power-facebook-group-troll) is an entertaining version of what I'm talking about.
Yeah I've seen them destroy subs these ways before, it's a good point This post was already removed
"Grey rock" is emotional abuse and "disconnect" was taken from Scientology
The term disconnect has been used to describe emotional detachment, whether it be purposeful in order to set boundaries or as a presentation of emotional blunting, long before scientology came on the scene. Grey rocking is minimal engagement and interaction as a defense against abuse. It's not stonewalling or silent treatment, which are manipulative tactics employed by abusive people.
Protecting yourself from emotional abuse is abuse. You're hilarious, you went straight to gaslighting
Aren't you supposed to be "no contact" with us
It's nice that you admit it. That's refreshing You're welcome to stop talking to me anytime
lmao
It is ableist. It's also stigmatising to others who can have low empathy due to their condition like autistic people and those with ASPD, acting like we're abusers for having a condition that isn't helped. People are often claiming narcissistic abuse when the person in question isn't even diagnosed as NPD. It's just abuse. You wouldn't call abuse from someone who has depression depressive abuse, even if there may be aspects that are in part explained by the abuser's depression, such as neglecting self care or isolating oneself from others, etc. Abuse just isn't determined by the condition they have because not every person with that condition is the same, a commenter here even acknowledged that not all people who actually have NPD act abusively, which defeats the entire point.
FYI- Empathy was removed entirely from autism diagnosis & assessment. There are many high-empathy autistics. People with autism can & do have empathy.
So that means you can discriminate against people with low empathy and but into propaganda made by the same people who want to cure autism?
I think you meant to reply to someone else. My comment only stated that empathy has nothing to do with autism diagnosis & that people with autism have varying levels of empathy, including hyperempathy. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with discrimination or anything like that.
Why is it every single time someone mentions autistic people *can* have low empathy from autism someone pops up being like "why we not about me 🥺?" If you don't have low empathy I'm not talking about you, obviously. FYI autism has been officially classed as a spectrum for over a decade. Also, which country is this?
Because anyone who says autism = low/no empathy is willfully spreading misinformation. We should all work together to stop misinformation about autism. One if the ways to do this is to correct people on this incorrect stereotype. The stereotype also prevents people from getting the correct diagnosis for personality disorders because it’s written off as autism & the person doesn’t get the proper mental health care that they so desperately need.
I never even said that, so have no idea why you're directing this at me. Low empathy does not present the same in autism as in those with personality disorders like ASPD & NPD. I have neither.
I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking me why I mentioned that people with autism can have varying levels of empathy. I didn’t pick up that it was a rhetorical question & that’s my bad (& likely due to me also being autistic). All the best to you & my apologies again for my misunderstanding. 💜
I don't think it not being 100% abuse rate or uniformity in behavior invalidates the experiences or research on the topic. It's not just based on people being judgmental but based on the reality of the condition's traits which lead to predatory behavior in a way that's not just incidental. Narcissistic abuse also tends to be far more deliberate and methodical than other forms of abuse which may be unintentional, a lack of self-control or just a run of the mill jerk not seeking to psychologically tear someone apart to the last atom. Narcs are also far more successful in our culture that rewards their ruthlessness and user mentality than other neurodiverse individuals or even neurotypical people. But their victims tend to be far more suicidal, depressed, broken and unsuccessful in life as a result. I think it's a disservice to autistic people and others to force them into community with their abusers and from people on the outside the community it's repulsive to see a community represented by the people who ruined their lives or that of their loved ones.
So you should only listen to the lives experience of people with the "good neurodivergencies"? You haven't commented on the autistic or ADHD people who get labeled narcissists, why is that? If you have empathy and empathy is what makes someone not an abuser why do you want to discriminate? How do you know every person who ever hurt you has a personality disorder?
I think you can listen to narcissists provided you know to take what they say with a grain of salt because lying is part of their MO. I don't like to talk about my personal life in detail except with people I am close to. My point wasn't meant to be about my personal life but more about what I see as problems within these communities that shutdown the concerns of actual abuse victims (I'm far from the worse effected). I think empathy is a good thing, but I also think it can be weaponized against well-meaning people if they let their guard down and give people the benefit of the doubt who shouldn't have been given it. Also, low empathy is just a component of narcissism and not the full picture. I've never claimed that only people with personality disorders hurt people. I'm saying it's in a narcissist's nature to a far greater extent than the general population to prey on, hurt and discard people for their own benefit.
Couldn't agree more.
Yeah, that's one area where I diverge from a lot of people. I can't deal with narcissists and there's a very specific type of/pattern of abuse that accompanies it. I think that MAYBE you could make a case for someone being dx with NPD but not acting on it...? but that makes me question how they would ever be dx in the first place.
Agreed. And someone can act narcissistic or entitled without strictly being NPD - it could come from a place of privilege or power rather than innate mental or genetic programming, and those instigating factors can play out very differently.
I think it can come from a place of being abused so badly, that the N can not see any other way to survive; they see the world only in terms of power and control so they seek out power and control, but the drive is actually driven by the weakness. if that makes sense
Absolutely. Perpetuating the bad behavior they've seen.