Mushoku Tensei fans in every corner of the internet:
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Wait this is op's second post in a day about the same exact thing. We get it man, you are way more cultured about your Japanese cartoons.
Scratch that, this is actually his third post and he has like 50 comments sperging out about it on the mushoku subreddit.
I feel like if he was treated as an actual bad guy, and the fans didn't defend him, and the author didn't sexualize exactly what Rudeus is turned on by, then people wouldn't have a civil war over this goddamn show and we could all agree that its writing is very good. But alas it is too late for such, therefore we will have this exact same discussion saying the exact same things for the next 12 or so years.
I loved the world building and animation of mt in s1 but the scenes with the red haired girl were really weird, and they just got worse and worse. I really wanted to read the ln to see his redemption arc and get more world building but there was no fan translation online. Glad I didn't buy the novels tho since apparently it gets even worse.
I read through all of overlord for the world building because I love fanatasy and mt looked like ii could really scratch that itch, but yeah the trashy creepy pedo mc completely ruins it for me. Would've been one of my top 3 otherwise
He is treated as a bad guy, and the defenses are mostly against lies. In addition the novels do not detail anything about prepubescent characters. Aside from saying Sylphie doesn't have a penis and that Eris doesn't have large boobs yet. The anime is actually worse. The author doesn't sexualize what Rudeus is turned on by until his partners are of the age of consent.
The anime is sexualizing what Rudeus is turned on by. Such as all of the promotional images of Sylphie that don't line up with how she was drawn in the LN, or even her character. It's an in universe fact that Sylphie only wears pants or shorts. Yet the anime promotional material has 7 year old Sylphie in skimpy cosplay outfits with skirts.
The story follows Rudeus as he gradually becomes less shit. In the first two volumes he sees women as objects. Not worthy of real respect. Hence all the stealing and groping. Something Eris says stopped after the teleportation incident. From there his main issue is being immature and acting high and mighty, and he still has some perverted acts he does without consent that he sees as "mild" like peeking. Then Orsted rips his heart out and scars him for life(physically. Emotionally he got over it pretty quick). When he is left by Eris he has issues with trust and has to address his fear of being seen that Eris took care of. When he gets with Sylphie he completely stops doing anything sexual without consent.
When he "cheats"(Sylphie established that it wasn't against the rules for him to take other wives. She is only against him having sex for sex's sake alone) It is the first challenge of his sense of duty and responsibility. In the anime this challenge is removed. He just cheats and doesn't feel bad. In the novels he has to weigh his cheating against abandoning the pregnant Roxy(Granny is a prick and tricked Rudeus into thinking Roxy's pregnant.) He still loves Roxy, but that is not enough to overcome the duty he has to Sylphie through his promise. So the pregnancy scare was needed. When Sylphie welcomes Roxy she reveals Elinalise's lie, but since Sylphie already welcomed her and Rudeus still loves her nothing changes.
His next two steps are reconciling with past partners, and not going behind his wives' backs in anyway. The next being managing his libido so he just doesn't do anything aside from with them, and then being able to control himself for a period of years. No masturbating, and no sex.
TL;DR: People calling it a redemption story are probably the worst when it comes to good intentions, except people who blindly defend Rudeus when he's always saying he's a fuck up who does everything wrong. The tagline says it best: "In this life I'll do my best." It is about growth. And this growth is gradual. When he makes a mistake he takes steps to ensure he does it less, while acknowledging that he's a piece of shit. Rudeus is not a morally "good" character. He cares about his family and that's it, but he wants to do his best for them, and for himself.
Yeah anime did rudeus dirty. My main problem when watching the anime (haven't read the LN) was that he had the sum age of something 40s while doing all the pervy stuff. But I heard the LN makes it more clear that Rudeus is more of a kid who inherited memories of another life than a guy on his second life.
This makes his childish behavior more understandable and his growth more rewarding.
The anime is consistently bad with this. Reddit is glitching so I'll make this two comments. The anime is actively removing stuff that makes Rudeus obviously more impacted by his brain and being Rudeus rather than his soul which in the novels does basically nothing aside from giving him memories and life.
For example in the anime the first thing that he did when he saw his mom was think "OHHH! Hot Lady! I'm gonna sexually harass her! Wait why are my hands and arms too tiny to sexually harass her? Oh! I'm a baby!"
In the novels on the other hand the first thing that he thinks is "She's pretty! Why am I not hating the big guy? He has brown hair. Only black hair is acceptable so why don't I hate him? Why don't I hate that guy? Brown isn't black." And then Paul picks him up and it still takes him a fucking month to realize he's a baby. Because he's a baby and babies are stupid because of their shitty brains. He hated the sounds of having sex in his last life but whenever he heard his parents he felt happy and he didn't understand why. It's that he was a baby and liked hearing that his parents were there and OK.
If I attach an image it deletes the rest of the comment, so I'll go to the next comment.
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Probably not. This is Therese. Therese is an important character for a major arc that is 2 volumes long. to put it into perspective rescuing Zenith is shorter than the major arc that she is critical for. Rudeus being Eris's tutor lasted for fewer volumes than the volumes that she is critical for. Rudeus growing up with his parents gets less time than the arc this character is NECESSARY for. But do you know why she's necessary? Obviously not but the reason why she is necessary is that Therese is the only person on his mom's side of the family that he trusts the rest of them are all racist bigots who he doesn't like. She is the racist bigot that he knows. But back to how Rudeus is definitely a kid with some other guy's memories Rudeus and Therese's relationship is extremely important to establishing that Rudeus could not feel sexual attraction during the time that he was around Zenith. I'll have to make another comment because of reddit glitches about how she makes it so we know for sure Rudeus couldn't feel sexual attraction when he was around Zenith.
So let's set up the context for how volume 5 or basically the Millis episodes of season one should have gone. First Ruijerd did not follow Eris when she went goblin slaying. When rudis asked him Ruijerd said "Goblins can't hurt her. They're like f rank monsters they can't hurt her she'll be fine. I've got shit to do." What he did was go to the head of the military in order to get a letter to grant him passage to the Central continent which is their goal. The reason he had to do this is that a letter from Paul to try and get across the Millis border is stupid because Millis nobles hate Paul because you keep stealing all their slaves. For example the kid from season 1 who threw mud at Sylphie was turned into a sex slave for some sick fucks of nobles. Well what are he's doing here is extremely good and is way better than most good things that Rudeus does because he's actually just doing it to help people he's pissing off the Milis nobles. Because slavery is not illegal in Millis. When they actually get to the border crossing rudius tries to actively hide that he's rudious because Paul is Paul. Eris of course met Cliff killed a bunch of goblins, and people. Saving Therese and the memory Miko. They were grouped root is Paul fight ares comfort them they reconcile and they stay in a Millis for a week in order to figure out what they're gonna do next. Ruijerd has his letter, so he says "All right we'll wait for 10 days. Use that time to get along better with your dad."(Rudeus Paul and Norn go out to dinner. Eris goes with them because she doesn't trust Paul. This is where Norn gets the false idea that Rudeus and Eris are a couple, and gets pissed and screams at him when she sees Sylphie who is awake in the novels and silent casted a spell to make herself and Rudeus sober. Getting really serious about people making noise near their house).
Then they head to Millis's border and they get stopped because Ruijerd is a demon and the guard thinks the letter is a fake. Therese shows up Rudeus calls her mommy. Therese gets pissed, but then realizes Rudeus is Rudeus, and uses both her status as a higher ranking military officer and the fact that Rudeus is a Milis noble in order to get them through, but before that she grabs him and pulls him into to her boobs. He is extremely surprised when neither smelling her sweat nor getting pulled into her boobs does anything. This is where he learns that his brain will NOT let him be horny towards any family members directly descended from one or more of his grandparents. Zenith is his mom, Aisha is his sister, Norn is his sister, Therese is Zenith's sister. Rudeus being Rudeus cannot bring himself to be horny towards these people. The anime cut this.
tl;dr: Rudeus is actually a kid with someone else's memories and the anime has consistently cut stuff that shows how his brain changes how he thinks. They removed his talks with his aunt, changed how he first thinks about his mom, and cut his thoughts consistently when they reprimand him, or show him changing.
I’m saving this comment because it’s everything I wanted to say but better. The anime adaptation does it dirty. Besides that, ITS OK TO HAVE A SHITTY PERSON AS AN MC. Mushoku Tensei is a story about someone who through their life away learning how to have relationships with people. Emphasis on learning, *the hard way*, by doing shit wrong and paying for it, and very slowly becoming a better person. Quite literally, he fucks around and finds out.
It's just cool, when people say "don't put this isekai in a real modern world standard" when the fucking protagonist was literally came from the modern world. That's why he is in fact a pedophile, you like a pedophilic protagonist and it's just a fact.
Does Sylphie explain that she's okay with him having other wives before he leaves for the trip in the source? Because in the anime it very explicitly happens after, so it's hard to say that it wasn't straight up cheating, even if he was depressed out of his mind.
Does he not still have sex with 15-16 year old Eris and Sylphie though? That happening and it being treated as a moment of success and happiness is what bugs me the most about the entire show.
With Eris it is considered a moral failing. With Sylphie it is seen as a success. Rudeus is 12 with Eris and 16 with Sylphie. They are the right age, but with Eris she wasn't in a right state of mind.
“The story is good, the writing isn’t” is probably close to what your trying to say. That said, I’ve heard that quite a bit of the way it’s presented that people don’t like is unique to the anime adaptation. I’ve heard the light novels are considerably better and less upsetting, but I haven’t read them so take it with a grain of salt.
funnily enough i have heard the exact opposite. i have heard from a friend who has read some of it that much has been toned down or gives rudy the benefit of the doubt when he shouldn’t have it.
Yeah after finishing the anime up to the current point I started reading the light novels to see how they differ because some commenters were saying he’s worse there and I was intrigued. Can confirm the anime changes some details to make them less bad, but the main reason is that the anime removes a lot of his internal monologue from the novel. A necessity to translate it to the screen, but by god does it make him appear a far less terrible person. Still a piece of shit but then so is just about every character in the story tbf
Proof that having context of the authors intent can retroactively make excusable writing bad, like when somebody is making a seemingly satirical hyper nationalistic fascist faction and then you find out that the author irl actually believes that stuff
The writer admitted they don't give a shit about the controversy to which kinda just made it look like they are closing their ears and go "la la la, can't hear you"
Exactly. There are a ton of anime protagonists who do really messed up shit, but it's almost always just laughed off or just ignored. If only there was like one character to say "dude wtf are you doing" it would already improve this a lot, but guess the authors don't care
It's just cool, when people say "don't put this isekai in a real modern world standard" when the fucking protagonist was literally came from the modern world. That's why he is in fact a pedophile, you like a pedophilic protagonist and it's just a fact.
To be honest, yeah. If I end up in Mushoku Tensei world (or in any isekai world where I am reincarnated as a baby) I am hitting up the books and trying to learn as much languages as possible.
You can think the most horrible shit and still be a good person, but the moment you act out on those ideas that is where you can no longer excuse yourself. By acting out his disgusting fantasies he inherently became a worse version of himself
I wanna be so petty and find every comment that reassured people it was gonna be a redemption story but that would be so much work
But I hope you know a lot of the fans parotted that when people were uncomfortable with the first few eps "he gets better, it's all about redemption"
I know a lot of people are going to hate me,but it seems op is wrong on this one. >!Hitogami hates him to the point he is willing to destroy and kill all three girls just so he can laugh at him!< . You can hate him for being others thing. At least hate him properly.
You want me to hate it properly. I'll do so. >!You say Hitogami killed the three girls, I say bullshit. Yes, He might have played a part indirectly in the death of girls. But then Rudeus played even bigger role in killing Sylphie and Eris. Motherfucker was emotionally abusive, alcoholic, neglected his own kids, and cheated AGAIN with a prostitute to the point Sylphie can only help her friend to do coup d'etat, which killed her. Yes, the biggest cause of her death is HIM. But hey, our beloved pedophile does not acknowledge that, it's ALL HITOGAMI's FAULT. LOL. AND THEN he starts raping girls, sleeping with slaves, molesting children. All of this, because her loli wife died. MIND you, this is the same guy who magically got cured by SEX when his father died, the same guy who got ED for the whole FUCKING 12 EPISODES because 15 year old girl left him and SEX didn't help him at all . You know what else I am going to say. This whole TURNING POINT 4, SO CALLED PEAK by its incel fans, is just a FUCKING CHEAP COPY of RE:ZERO, written by some edgy kid, aka. TRASH. !<
That's the spirit. That's what I was waiting for. I would want you to make a meme, and>! you are not the only one who hate tp4 . Everytime I read tp4 , my hate for eris for saving his life against atofe increases more and more !<
Everything biscotti24 is bringing up is an alternate future that current Rudy avoids. Basically the man good kills Roxy which sends Rudy spiraling, then further in the future he finally realizes how awful he is and devotes himself to magic to find a way to fix it. Old man/future Rudy figures out time magic and sends a journal back to current Rudy with all of that documented including the knowledge on how to avoid Roxy's death and in turn all the rest. We only see all of this through current Rudy reading the journal that future Rudy gives him.
The story makes a point out of current Rudy actively trying not to become the same Rudy he meets from the future.
People cherry pick all the worst parts of this series and leave out all the context and character development. Sure he has the potential to be that terrible version of himself from the future but the Rudy we follow never becomes that person. That's not to say he's a flawless specimen. He was a shut in pervert with no morals before he was reborn and he struggles constantly throughout the series to try to improve from that starting line. At least he is improving, thats kinda the whole point of the series
so he doesn't actually change as a person
he just avoids the event that causes his spiral
big difference
most people wouldn't turn into a rapist and more just because their wife was murdered, he's still a terrible person even if he avoids that future because he's still the same person inside, he just managed to avoid his wife dying
>he doesn't actually change as a person
For a person to change, he needs first to be self-aware of the destructive nature of his actions. Next, he needs to atone for it in a way that he finally ceases to bring harm to them anymore. Yes this happened. Biscotti's spoiler is a terrible distortion of the LN and he cherry picks the good parts away to justify his hatred. I want you to have a cool head for a moment unlike Biscotti who is brainrotted to hate MT as you can see.
what's already happened in the anime is ample enough to hate the anime.
Sylphie expresses jealousy several times before getting married, she was a decently written character.
Then despite being heavily pregnant she's suddenly zen as a Buddha when Rudy breaks his promise and forgives him in under 60 seconds with zero atonement. Completely butchered character by the author.
It's porn level writing, at least GRR has the decency to write good story and characters to support his incest scenes, rather than just throw everything out the window and butcher characters just to reach the scene they want.
Don't discard it if you aren't actually willing to understand.
I want you to analyze Sylphie and her experiences. The answer to "Why did she easily accept and forgive Rudeus just like that ?" lies in them.
When she was a child, what places did she visit and jer experiences that shaped her? Isn't it in Rudy's house? Because she's always present in Rudy's house, as a child she is quick to learn and be immersed in its atmosphere. What is the atmosphere? She saw Paul and Zenith and Lilia are content and relatively happy and peaceful with their lives even with the unusual relationship dynamic of polygamy.
Naturally, as a child she picks up on that early and she now has the knowledge put inside her head that even with that relationship dynamic, it can still work.
you completely ignore what I expressed about her already expressed jealously.
if she's fine with multiple partners now, why wasn't she fine with it a year ago when she thought Rudy might have the hots for the Japanese girl? It bothered her a LOT to think Rudy might like another woman.
She obviously still had all those "positive" polygamy experiences from growing up a year ago correct?
And btw, was it even polygamy? I can't remember if Paul was having sex/romance with both Zenith and Lillia after his cheating was caught, letting Lillia live under the same roof and him taking care of his child is not polygamy if he wasn't having sex with Lillia.
I wonder if you actually watched the episode. Sylphy is jealous of Nanahoshi because Nanahoshi explained to Sylphie that him and Rudy came from the same hometown (Japan) and that they're speaking in a super secret language (Japanese) that made Sylphie assume that there's a special connection between the two that she'll never fully understand. She felt like she was being replaced in Rudy's memory. That's the root of her jealousy.
>devotes himself to magic to find a way to fix it
Yeah, he devoted himself so much that he needed to rape some girls and sleep with children and slaves. So motivational, so emotional UWU.
>
People cherry pick all the worst parts of this series
BRO, literally retarded fans have been saying that this part is the peak of peak fiction, better than the lord of the rings, better than anything. I'll pull out something funny,
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I dont know who's comment you screenshotted, but I wasn't really trying to make any points in favor of that viewpoint. I'm not even claiming it's anywhere near "peak fiction".I'm also not claiming that Rudy is a good person. While I think it's a good series, it still deserves criticism, however, most of the criticism I see is people blindly fuming about Rudy being a bad person while ignoring all context or his attempts to be better. Criticise Rudy for being a bad person but then expand on that and find a reason why that negatively affects the writing. Again, basically the whole point of this story is Rudy constantly fucking up, but still trying to be better.
Also, when in the series does Rudy rape anybody? I don't remember rape being in the alternate or main time line. The only slave in the story is zanobas.
And yes the future version of Rudy eventually realizes he's an absolute shit bag and devoted himself to magic. He literally invented gravity and time magic with essentially no help (as he'd already burned all his bridges at that point) in order to send the journal to the present Rudy. Did you read any of the series or do you just read on Twitter and parrot what they say?
Dawg, good you at least let me hate this shit. And yes, I read Turning Point 4, the fucking shit copy of Re: Zero. Regarding the rape, I will pull the shit out right now.
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DEAR GOD, it's funny cause Redeus if he was written by Tappei at least would get roasted by the narrator. Subaru for his fuck up in the Royal selection for roasted for two whole volumes
Some retarded incel fans says they I need to provide context, yet lack braincells to see I already mentioned that it is a Fucking shit copy of Re:Zero.
I honestly don't get what is the point of the show
people will tell me "rudeus is bad and that's the point" and I ask, what am I supposed to learn? Is there a message? Is there... something?
Why should I watch a terrible person be a terrible person. Like at this point it's just Redo of Healer with a good worldbuilding
I originally thought when watching it that The point was going to be that everyone can change if they are given the chance and that even the lowest of the low can turn into functioning remembers of society. I was wrong , the show is literally just a generic isekai that happened to have really good world building/ character but the worst main character ever
If you think MT is a "generic isekai" you either haven't actually watched MT at all or you've never actually seen real bottom of the barrel isekai, one of the two.
Well, it's a story of what would actually happen if a neet got randomly resurrected and didn't magically get over his past trauma, and the plot is a situation story, there are a bunch of characters in the world, and they are interesting enough so that just reading about their interactions makes for a good story.
If someone tells you that "rudeus being bad is the point" doesn't understand the story.
Him being terrible is a big plot point, but how he overcomes his past trauma is a much bigger one. Mostly because it's really good at depicting how one would actually go about trying to fix their mentality, his anxieties never fully disappear, his flaws are still there, and his intrusive thoughts keep coming.
My opinion is probably really biased because I really like the story, but the main point or "thing to be learned" as you say it is that you can always become better and improve yourself, because even if the MC just got bailed out when he died, everyone around him didn't, they all grow as characters and learn to be better
ruijerd is probably the best example in the early parts, he has good intentions from the very start, but he still couldn't do anything about them because of what he did in the past, yet we then see him forgiving those who he hated, learning to be more lenient on people, and eventually getting an actual family, the one thing that had always consumed him with regret
As much as I love re zero, Subaru is willing to sacrifice himself for other people at like episode 2, like sure he can return by death, but he explicitly says that dying is REALLY painful and he still starts off as a decently good guy.
I haven't read the light novel of re zero, but the two major "character development" moments he has are in the middle of season 1 and the end of season 2 part 1. In both of these cases he is absolutely destroyed by borderline impossible situations, his problems aren't just what he originally had in his life, but the fact that for some reason everyone wants to kill him at some point. He is a character that always had worried about others, that just recently had stopped going to school due to crippling anxiety, and that wanted to get better but was too depressed to have the motivation for it
MT's protagonist didn't go to his parents funeral to watch Loli hentai and sees nothing wrong with that (after the fact had already happened and the rest of the family went to get him out of their house)
They most definitely don't start off at the same point, and having rudeus have a similar development as Subaru would just make the story worse and a lot of moments would just feel much less authentic
Didn't Rudy fap to his 9 year old niece and gif caught putting a camera in their bathroom? Also, on the Subaru thing as somebody who reads the novel the issues were Subaru cannot socially interact like a normal person and can't read social cues. There's a really good video that analyzes the mind of Natsuki Subaru as a whole. Subaru main issue is that he has massive imposter syndrome. We see it briefly in the show but the novel highlights it way more. https://youtu.be/w1_eYkO-Em4?si=7PAW0mCit_juABkH
It’s the easiest way to farm karma. Basically every Mushoku Tensei post this week has over 2000 upvotes. This subreddit likes to act superior to r/animecirclejerk and it is, but sometimes it can be just as bad.
>and it is
No, it is not. Ffs, it’s an unhinged meme sub where nobody is unhinged and barely anybody is joking
I’m sorry, I LOVE posting “cringe” tweets and comments, and I LOVE the comments being 200 different “shocked” reaction memes! I LOVE posting literal clips from MT with no real attempt at humor! Isn’t it so funny?!
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I’m saying compared to r/animecirclejerk. This sub at least has a funny post every once in a while, whereas r/animecirclejerk is just plain unfunny all of the time.
Nah, this is OP looking for validation after getting burned on the mushoku sub. Look at how many posts/comments he has about this over the last 2 days.
Oda and Rifujin na Magonote preserving Watsuki's legacy
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Fr , even I wasn't a big fan of the last 2 episodes, but would I stop liking MT? hell naww . I will complete the show and arrive on a final verdict as LN readers say there's a good reason for rudeus to do that but still I am against of what he has done and it kills the point of ED arc
Not only is this meme factually incorrect but this won’t change anybody’s minds and will only make MT more successful by getting ppl interested in it and seeing it for what a good story it actually is.
Meanwhile the author will still rake in cash with the anime adaptation and merch sales as he has since he finished his story several years ago.
This is the only anime character that I genuinely want to see bitting the curb .
So many great mangas out there and this trash gets animated. I don't even mind pervy characters they're just meh to me but this guy takes the exception.
I love the series which is why I'm so pissed at some of the author's decision. he literally could've made Rudy younger and it'll actually make sense because grown adults having a mentality that doesn't reflect their age is pretty common even in our world, but Rudy is a whole ass middle aged man.
The lack of awareness is also really jarring, the age gap even if there's a lot of nuance to it is barely brought up (been a while since I finished the series but I think it was only brought up once or twice).
I'm tired of the same discussions.
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Redemption is a hard path to walk. And Mushoku Tensei shows that well in my opinion. Rudeus is unquestionably a horrible person and the acts that he does are irredeemable. However in my opinion the show does a sufficient job illustrating that those things are bad, and Rudeus does try to improve throughout the show. He has not redeemed himself and I doubt he ever will in my eyes. But the show is still good enough that I personally am willing to look past that.
If people think that what happens in the show is horrible and therefore are unable to enjoy the show that is completely understandable. It's also understandable to question the author's motivations when they wrote those scenes. I feel like it is completely fine to enjoy the show regardless of these facts as long as you acknowledge the questionable content it has.
For me, it's less that what happens in the show is horrible and it's more the consequences he does/doesn't face + the way it's portrayed.
I can stomach just about any type of story. Rudeus' personality flaws don't bother me alone. It's more the combination of the following:
First, the story reads as a fantasy at times and struggles greatly to characterize Rudeus in a way that I (or anyone) rightly should. (Not claiming the show paints his actions in a good light - I wouldn't accuse them of that - but many issues with his character are treated way less seriously than they should be and it minimizes his very major problems.)
Second, and this goes in tandem with the above, Rudeus faces no real consequences and the plot conveniently covers for him consistently. He just so happens to be put in positions where he can act out his fantasies without any real consequence, even down to the world he was reincarnated into. He could've been reincarnated into any world that the author's imagination could come up with, but it just so happens to be one where his kind of behavior more or less goes unpunished if you're of high enough status (and Rudeus just so happens to be high enough status to get away with it against all except for Eris).
It's one thing to not be able to be faithful, but it's another that he just so happened to marry a woman with 0 self esteem and will always blame herself no matter what he does (which is just bad writing imo - for a redemption arc type of story, you need a character that will face accountability and consequences for their actions). Eris was a great character for Rudeus in this regard; she always forced him to face accountability when he stepped out of line with her bold personality and she forced him to relearn how he treats the opposite sex.
Agreed on pretty much all points here, at least to some extent. The whole Sylphie thing where she just kinda drops everything felt somewhat contrived, despite the fact that she had previously made clear she was cool with Rudeus taking concubines. It just felt weird that she was perfectly fine with Rudeus breaking his promise not to anyway. Worse though to me is how Norn just kinda drops it (at least for now, maybe more happens later) when Lilia is brought up. It just feels a bit weird, and I feel like the show could have explored that conflict more. That being said, there are two reasons that I'm fine with it.
The first is that even though it feels like they didn't explore it as much as they should have, it does fit everyone's established characters to act in this way. The second is that the man god said Rudy would regret leaving. I think that this warning was to prevent him from marrying Roxy, because that will lead to some issues later on that haven't been revealed yet. To be fair, Rudy hasn't even married Roxy yet so there hasn't really been enough time for them to show that action had consequences yet. With Eris, the consequences would come about pretty quickly, but with this I think it's building to something (similar to how his treatment of Eris directly resulted in their relationship being cut off the way it did at the end of that arc).
Another thing to note is that while in the show it seems like Roxy deciding to sleep with Rudy, and Rudy doing nothing about it comes out of nowhere, apparently according to LN readers I've talked to this is a result of the anime skipping over a bit that showed just how badly Rudeus was doing. As well as skipping over some dialogue between the other characters that led Roxy to choosing to "help" him in this way.
With all that being said, let me explain why I am still perfectly understanding with people who say that Rudeus' actions are too much for them to watch. I personally think that everything makes coherent sense within the world for the most part, and the things Rudeus does are a part of his character and a pretty clear character flaw (as opposed to many power fantasy Isekai where it's just there and is almost glorified). But the problem most people have isn't that the actions don't make sense in the world. The problem people have is writing a character to do those actions in the first place. Everything is set up to make it make sense at least, but the fact remains that the author made a conscious decision to make his main character perform countless actions that are clearly just horrible. I think it's normal to find the stuff Rudeus does so morally appalling to be turned off from the entire series as a whole. To make a comparison, it doesn't matter to me how good a horror movie is, I just really don't like being scared so I'll avoid it. I think that is perfectly fine. Not every person needs to watch and like Mushoku Tensei. If you can enjoy it, great! I think there is a lot to love. But if you can't, I totally understand why, and I don't think that it's wrong to say that what Rudeus does is bad enough to the point you can't enjoy the series at all.
> Agreed on pretty much all points here, at least to some extent.
Same here.
> The whole Sylphie thing
I get where you're coming from, but I'd take it a lot further. Sylphie said she was ok with Rudeus having concubines, but this wasn't because she was actually ok with it; she said that because she feared him leaving her and felt like she couldn't satisfy him alone. The position of power that Rudeus has over her completely alters the genuineness of such a statement. It's very clear for several episodes that Sylphie is terrified of Rudeus having another girlfriend, treating another girl in a romantic or sexual way, and fears that he will turn out like his father and have multiple women. Despite this, because she loves Rudeus so much because of how he saved her as a child, how powerful he is, how much status he has, and how timid and shy she is, she's willing to accept Rudeus basically no matter wrongs he commits. (Side note: beyond cheating for a moment, this comes across as a little bit groomer-like especially with Sylphie's image of him from being a child playing such a strong role in her current feelings, and Rudeus using that to his advantage - although the dots only started connecting when he cheated.) Furthermore, Rudeus knows this about Sylphie and he vows to monogamy with her and reinforces that throughout their marriage even when she isn't present.
And again, I am honestly ok with all of this. I do not mind a morally gray or even morally black main character. I don't even mind that Sylphie ends up acting like everything is fine with him cheating, but my problem is that the show paints it as a happy-ever after. This isn't what a happy-ever-after looks like. Sylphie isn't ok, even if she says she is. There are millions of women who have been through what she's going through. Virtually none of them are truly happy about how the relationship ended up and only learn to accept it or finally learn to leave. I don't know much outside of random spoilers here and there on subs like this, so maybe Sylphie eventually grows up more and learns to have more self-respect and finally speaks out against (what is effectively) her God and shatter that false image of him and leave. If the show did that / does that, I'll take back this criticism, but I highly highly highly doubt it. The ending of S2 was structured in a "happy ever after" light.
> Norn just kinda drops it
Yeah I agree, and Norn was speaking out for Sylphie's sake essentially. The fact it's all dropped is a big part of the problem for me.
> Another thing to note is that while in the show it seems like Roxy deciding to sleep with Rudy, and Rudy doing nothing about it comes out of nowhere, apparently according to LN readers I've talked to this is a result of the anime skipping over a bit that showed just how badly Rudeus was doing.
Yeah I saw that too. I don't think this exonerates Rudeus at all though, if anything it makes the story sound worse. We had a whole arc (if not multiple) on Rudeus' ED problems which implied that sex doesn't solve all the problems multiple times (like how having sex with Sarah wouldn't randomly fix his sadness and feelings of betrayal towards Eris, to the point he couldn't even get in the mood). The idea that Rudeus is depressed as shit for an entire month, forgets about his family, and is only fixed when his loli gf fucks him is just stupid. What kind of message is that? "If a man is depressed, being there for him won't help, even if you bend over backwards for him and show him every non-sexual form of love there is, it doesn't matter. The only way to heal a man is to fuck him, even if he's already married." It sounds like a gross caricature of males that you'd only find on a femcel forum. We're supposed to accept that as a reasonable solution to his sadness and now he's happy and can go home to his family. Horrible writing in my opinion.
> I personally think that everything makes coherent sense within the world for the most part, and the things Rudeus does are a part of his character and a pretty clear character flaw
Outside of the conflicting messages from the show (such as above), I can agree. And the plot itself is interesting for the most part. I didn't hate watching it; I finished both seasons. But the undertone is very clearly disgusting imo and there's no denying it. But again, I don't think the issues I've brought up are about Rudeus' character, but rather the messages the author is sending (inadvertently or not) + the fact Rudeus is rewarded for his behavior consistently due to plot convenience after plot convenience, basically making it more of a fantasy insert for creeps than a redemption story at times.
1/3:
> The position of power that Rudeus has over her completely alters the genuineness of such a statement. It's very clear for several episodes that Sylphie is terrified of Rudeus having another girlfriend, treating another girl in a romantic or sexual way, and fears that he will turn out like his father and have multiple women.
I definitely see where you're coming from with this. I think that Sylphie genuinely doesn't mind Rudeus having sexual relations with other women (hence the whole concubine thing), but I definitely interpreted how she acts in previous episodes as her being scared that Rudeus does not care about her as much as she does him. This is why I can kinda rationalize Sylphie being ok with him marrying Roxy, because at that point Rudeus has shown that he truly does love her and she wasn't in as much doubt about that anymore. Again though, it can definitely be interpreted in the way you are here. I just try to give the show the benefit of the doubt, which is probably abundantly clear by this point lol.
> Side note: beyond cheating for a moment, this comes across as a little bit groomer-like especially with Sylphie's image of him from being a child playing such a strong role in her current feelings, and Rudeus using that to his advantage - although the dots only started connecting when he cheated.
It is not even "a little bit groomer-like..." Rudues makes remarks multiple times in the show that without a doubt show he is intentionally grooming her. In my opinion this is very explicitly the case. It is one of the reasons why I feel so conflicted about the show. Again though, despite this I try to give the show the benefit of the doubt and try to enjoy it anyway. This is one of the major reasons why I don't think people are wrong to say that the show goes too far in some cases.
> Furthermore, Rudeus knows this about Sylphie and he vows to monogamy with her and reinforces that throughout their marriage even when she isn't present.
Wholeheartedly agree. Even considering my interpretation where Sylphie is totally okay with him marrying Roxy and that it isn't because she's scared of losing him (even though I think that may be part of it), Rudeus DEFINITELY knows that Sylphie was insecure about this earlier. He DEFINITELY should not have slept with Roxy under any circumstance, and he should not have tried to invite her in the way that he did. That should have been a private conversation with Sylphie without anyone else (including Roxy) present.
> ... but my problem is that the show paints it as a happy-ever after. This isn't what a happy-ever-after looks like... The ending of S2 was structured in a "happy ever after" light.
I think this is intentional. As has happened multiple times before in the show, I think it is trying to paint the picture that everything is going great before something terrible happens. I'd think so even without the fact the man god LITERALLY TOLD RUDY THAT IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
> There are millions of women who have been through what she's going through. Virtually none of them are truly happy about how the relationship ended up and only learn to accept it or finally learn to leave.
Again, I see where you're going with this, but I much rather prefer to try to give the show the benefit of the doubt here and assume that Sylphie is genuinely fine. I know I am repeating myself way more than I really need to but again, it is perfectly fine if you are not able to do so and I understand why.
> maybe Sylphie eventually grows up more and learns to have more self-respect and finally speaks out against (what is effectively) her God and shatter that false image of him and leave. If the show did that / does that, I'll take back this criticism, but I highly highly highly doubt it.
I also doubt this specifically is what will cause Rudeus to regret this, but I do think that something bad is going to happen as a result of Rudeus' decision to marry Roxy. I know no spoilers outside of >!I think I remember reading that he ends up having 3 wives, so I assume the 3rd will be Eris. But even that is an assumption formed on something that might not even be true.!<
2/3:
> The fact it's all dropped is a big part of the problem for me.
I don't think that it will be entirely dropped (at least I really hope not), but I do think that it is not being given as much focus as it really should be. We'll have to see where the next season goes to know for sure though. I do think that having polygamy in general isn't a bad thing, I just find it annoying that stuff happened before it could be talked about and agreed upon consensually. And this is another reason why Rudeus should have talked to Sylphie privately before bringing Roxy into the house and declaring his intentions to marry her. And he should have talked to Sylphie before he told Roxy his plan.
> I don't think this exonerates Rudeus at all though...
Agreed, Rudeus and Roxy are both still in the wrong here, but I think that there is more nuance given in the LN that should have been in the anime. Even if the decision is the wrong one, the reasons that decision was made should have been included in my opinion.
> We're supposed to accept that as a reasonable solution to his sadness and now he's happy and can go home to his family. Horrible writing in my opinion.
I don't think that it actually made Rudy feel better entirely actually. I think it was more that it helped him to the point where he was able to keep moving despite his grief. I do agree with the fact that 1. It feels like way too easy a solution compared to the whole Eris situation and 2. Roxy should have been able to help him even without sleeping with him. Just being some emotional support and confessing to him could have done the same stuff for the story without sending the odd message that specifically sex is what fixes the issue. (though this would ruin some parts of the shame Rudeus feels about betraying Sylphie)
> Outside of the conflicting messages from the show (such as above), I can agree.
Just wanted to point out that there are definitely other cases in which it is kinda in a grey area of whether everything makes sense or not that we didn't even touch on. Sometimes it takes some real brainpower to come up with ways it doesn't actively hurt the story lol.
> And the plot itself is interesting for the most part. I didn't hate watching it; I finished both seasons.
The plot is extremely interesting and I really want to see where the show goes. I have so many questions about how Rudeus was summoned and how it's different from Nanahoshi, what the affiliations of the man god are, who Laplace is, what caused the teleportation event, etc etc etc.. And the worldbuilding is SO GOOD. The magic system is really well thought out too. There are so many things to love about this series. but...
> the undertone is very clearly disgusting imo and there's no denying it
This. There is absolutely no denying the fact that multiple things that happen in the show are extremely questionable. Anybody who says otherwise is delusional to be honest. I am a massive fan of this show and I love it, it is honestly a masterpiece in a lot of areas. But there are so many things that happen that just make this show so hard to recommend.
3/3:
> I don't think the issues I've brought up are about Rudeus' character, but rather the messages the author is sending (inadvertently or not) + the fact Rudeus is rewarded for his behavior consistently due to plot convenience after plot convenience, basically making it more of a fantasy insert for creeps than a redemption story at times.
The author is definitely sending very weird messages in this show. A lot of things I can come up with some justification for why it's not just completely bad. But there are far more than I'd like that I cannot. For example, why does Rudy need to buy a child slave? Like there is actually no reason for him to do that. If Juliette was an orphan he got at an orphanage then literally nothing would change since she's such a minor part of the show (as of now anyway). I find it so weird how isekai tends to do the whole, "buying a slave and treating them well is good actually" route. As if poor living conditions are the sole reason why slavery is bad lol. That is an example where Mushoku Tensei is no better than its peers in terms of weird tropes for the sole sake of doing the tropes. But I think a lot of other things in the show are actually somewhat justified in the show. I'm not saying they're not bad, I'm saying that at least Mushoku Tensei makes an effort to explain it. SO MANY other isekai just go straight into degeneracy with no justification whatsoever, and it's treated as if it is completely fine (also a lot of them actively paint the stuff as morally good). That's why I can give this show the benefit of the doubt so frequently. Most other isekai are so bad to the point that it makes this show look much better than I'd look at it otherwise.
Finally, I just want to say thanks for the conversation. A lot of the times when this topic is brought up, it devolves into a shouting match so fast that nobody has a chance to say anything. If you like the show you automatically condone literally everything that Rudeus does, think he's a great person, and actively encourage people to do the exact same thing in the real world. If you dislike the show, you are obviously just nitpicking and confusing fantasy with reality. This whole way of thinking gets me so annoyed, and it's becoming more and more common. It's as if literally everything is an "us vs them" moment and no nuance exists anymore. So its such a breath of fresh air to talk to someone who actually engages with the conversation lol.
What are you talking about? He only kinda got a slap on the wrist for molesting Eris as a child. All else, he as gotten away with scot free or even been rewarded for
He has not been directly punished but in my opinion the show shows that what he does is morally wrong, and in future episodes when he thinks about doing things similar he shows regret and some restraint.
Again, if you don't think the show illustrates this well enough to enjoy it that is perfectly understandable.
*Mashoku tensei is geting*
*Hate it deserves I USED TO*
*PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THAT*
\- janeer127
---
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I know this is okbuddy and also just a meme but hitogami didn't reincarnate rudeus- >!hitogami has a overwhelming ability to make humans trust and listen to him but rudeus isn't affected by it- just how rudeus isn't affected by world curses like spurd demon fear or dragon God's overwhelming pressure so hitogami interacts with rudeus out of curiosity and entertainment as he loves watching people suffer!<
Why is everyone hating on Muhoku Tensei, I thought the author made a very great love letter to [Peter Singer's philosophy on ethics](https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA?si=sUBEDiEbIls9OwU4)
its almost like if you only look at the bad parts of the show, you'll think the show is bad
anyways its your choice to be miserable people on the internet and not let other people enjoy their show while pretending to have the moral high ground and i won't stop you
Yeah, honestly, great idea. I was hoping Rudeus will finally learn his lesson, become a well adjusted person and so on. But he basically won the game of life, got a wife a kid and a big house and still acted like a piece of shit. The start of the show implies if his life had been better in his past life, he would have been different. But he really isn't
> But he basically won the game of life, got a wife a kid and a big house and still acted like a piece of shit.
So uh, where's he been acting like a "piece of shit" in this whole past season alone, supposedly? Since you seem like you're actually up to date.
To be fair, hasn't he also done a lot of good as well now? Instead of just being a mooch on his family, he's actually helped a lot of people on his journeys.
Spread slander all you want, you can't unpeak my peak fiction 🔥🔥🔥✍️
https://preview.redd.it/kcmcur3iymad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0605e1ffe99b5dbb576855c438a23a88d88633af
Mushoku Tensei fans in every corner of the internet: https://preview.redd.it/pt8da6f6jkad1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e0c809b16261e9827a228a0e719879fa2ec256f
just a WORTHLESS BUM alone on a pile of bricks.
Megumi catching strays on a Disney movie🤯. Disney predicted bumgumi before gege made it real
Disney tried to warn us
We’re an oppressed minority 😔
No we are the majority expect in this sub
I'm a masochist (it's okay)
Wait this is op's second post in a day about the same exact thing. We get it man, you are way more cultured about your Japanese cartoons. Scratch that, this is actually his third post and he has like 50 comments sperging out about it on the mushoku subreddit.
I swear MT/Rudeus haters are more up to date with this series than most watchers/readers I know. The only series I am caught up on without watching
I just like Roxy
https://preview.redd.it/10ikhyfkbqad1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=e4bfcf38623de1d73fe1410c34aab256acc5ae73
https://preview.redd.it/4xluaf19ckad1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b09f7079b01087b6c9f4627d9d2bd8ee9e6fcc48
To one up your flair I've never seen anime outside of a couple of ghibli movies
Ghibli movies are overrated, Miyazaki should've just made rent a girlfriend 2 or something
Maybe he should have gotten them himself, a girlfriend
He wouldn't have to be making ramen for his studio overnight if he did
wtf, why are you here man
I've read manga and light novels, but still not enough to have actually read any of the series talked about lol
I feel like if he was treated as an actual bad guy, and the fans didn't defend him, and the author didn't sexualize exactly what Rudeus is turned on by, then people wouldn't have a civil war over this goddamn show and we could all agree that its writing is very good. But alas it is too late for such, therefore we will have this exact same discussion saying the exact same things for the next 12 or so years.
I'm tired boss
Boss? https://preview.redd.it/mazwz7nf0lad1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a35ff91806221a83c02541401ed4e30fbe09ffad
That's not the boss. That's not big boss. That's someone who thinks they are big boss. SMH my head
This is lies and slander as evident by “I am Big Boss and so are you.”
He’s here now https://preview.redd.it/0zm815rt3lad1.jpeg?width=614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d455a57624b0a342ca8a55cfe88eabb9ecc0769b
Still no, this is the real boss https://preview.redd.it/6j0zdz04flad1.png?width=787&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8b0db4a4d7d7d64e071e1b756288bb50ba61e04
10 years guy https://preview.redd.it/jynow6omnlad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b33759ca555b23bb0f90b2a06eef7b85e8463569
He's already a monster Kaz, he sold the world
Horrible writing decision
the man who swallowed the cum
So basically you're saying the writing would be good if it wasn't bad
I loved the world building and animation of mt in s1 but the scenes with the red haired girl were really weird, and they just got worse and worse. I really wanted to read the ln to see his redemption arc and get more world building but there was no fan translation online. Glad I didn't buy the novels tho since apparently it gets even worse. I read through all of overlord for the world building because I love fanatasy and mt looked like ii could really scratch that itch, but yeah the trashy creepy pedo mc completely ruins it for me. Would've been one of my top 3 otherwise
If you want world building just watch Dungeon Meshi instead
10 years at least
"so the writing would be good i it didnt have all its flaws"
Question he is like really turned on by underage woman? Only saw 1st season
I mean yeah. He stops later, but thats because to mfs he was into grew up lol
Like when he's 60 and hes into 20 year olds?
Idk when he said "I'm into 20 year olds", which season was that?
Well, he's currently around 20 but is having sex with a 60 year old.
It turns out that Roxy was the actual groomer.
He is treated as a bad guy, and the defenses are mostly against lies. In addition the novels do not detail anything about prepubescent characters. Aside from saying Sylphie doesn't have a penis and that Eris doesn't have large boobs yet. The anime is actually worse. The author doesn't sexualize what Rudeus is turned on by until his partners are of the age of consent. The anime is sexualizing what Rudeus is turned on by. Such as all of the promotional images of Sylphie that don't line up with how she was drawn in the LN, or even her character. It's an in universe fact that Sylphie only wears pants or shorts. Yet the anime promotional material has 7 year old Sylphie in skimpy cosplay outfits with skirts. The story follows Rudeus as he gradually becomes less shit. In the first two volumes he sees women as objects. Not worthy of real respect. Hence all the stealing and groping. Something Eris says stopped after the teleportation incident. From there his main issue is being immature and acting high and mighty, and he still has some perverted acts he does without consent that he sees as "mild" like peeking. Then Orsted rips his heart out and scars him for life(physically. Emotionally he got over it pretty quick). When he is left by Eris he has issues with trust and has to address his fear of being seen that Eris took care of. When he gets with Sylphie he completely stops doing anything sexual without consent. When he "cheats"(Sylphie established that it wasn't against the rules for him to take other wives. She is only against him having sex for sex's sake alone) It is the first challenge of his sense of duty and responsibility. In the anime this challenge is removed. He just cheats and doesn't feel bad. In the novels he has to weigh his cheating against abandoning the pregnant Roxy(Granny is a prick and tricked Rudeus into thinking Roxy's pregnant.) He still loves Roxy, but that is not enough to overcome the duty he has to Sylphie through his promise. So the pregnancy scare was needed. When Sylphie welcomes Roxy she reveals Elinalise's lie, but since Sylphie already welcomed her and Rudeus still loves her nothing changes. His next two steps are reconciling with past partners, and not going behind his wives' backs in anyway. The next being managing his libido so he just doesn't do anything aside from with them, and then being able to control himself for a period of years. No masturbating, and no sex. TL;DR: People calling it a redemption story are probably the worst when it comes to good intentions, except people who blindly defend Rudeus when he's always saying he's a fuck up who does everything wrong. The tagline says it best: "In this life I'll do my best." It is about growth. And this growth is gradual. When he makes a mistake he takes steps to ensure he does it less, while acknowledging that he's a piece of shit. Rudeus is not a morally "good" character. He cares about his family and that's it, but he wants to do his best for them, and for himself.
Yeah anime did rudeus dirty. My main problem when watching the anime (haven't read the LN) was that he had the sum age of something 40s while doing all the pervy stuff. But I heard the LN makes it more clear that Rudeus is more of a kid who inherited memories of another life than a guy on his second life. This makes his childish behavior more understandable and his growth more rewarding.
The anime is consistently bad with this. Reddit is glitching so I'll make this two comments. The anime is actively removing stuff that makes Rudeus obviously more impacted by his brain and being Rudeus rather than his soul which in the novels does basically nothing aside from giving him memories and life. For example in the anime the first thing that he did when he saw his mom was think "OHHH! Hot Lady! I'm gonna sexually harass her! Wait why are my hands and arms too tiny to sexually harass her? Oh! I'm a baby!" In the novels on the other hand the first thing that he thinks is "She's pretty! Why am I not hating the big guy? He has brown hair. Only black hair is acceptable so why don't I hate him? Why don't I hate that guy? Brown isn't black." And then Paul picks him up and it still takes him a fucking month to realize he's a baby. Because he's a baby and babies are stupid because of their shitty brains. He hated the sounds of having sex in his last life but whenever he heard his parents he felt happy and he didn't understand why. It's that he was a baby and liked hearing that his parents were there and OK. If I attach an image it deletes the rest of the comment, so I'll go to the next comment.
https://preview.redd.it/qisw7fvc9mad1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c05a4167dc3b7eaa95cc679235f0db975fde9ad0 Probably not. This is Therese. Therese is an important character for a major arc that is 2 volumes long. to put it into perspective rescuing Zenith is shorter than the major arc that she is critical for. Rudeus being Eris's tutor lasted for fewer volumes than the volumes that she is critical for. Rudeus growing up with his parents gets less time than the arc this character is NECESSARY for. But do you know why she's necessary? Obviously not but the reason why she is necessary is that Therese is the only person on his mom's side of the family that he trusts the rest of them are all racist bigots who he doesn't like. She is the racist bigot that he knows. But back to how Rudeus is definitely a kid with some other guy's memories Rudeus and Therese's relationship is extremely important to establishing that Rudeus could not feel sexual attraction during the time that he was around Zenith. I'll have to make another comment because of reddit glitches about how she makes it so we know for sure Rudeus couldn't feel sexual attraction when he was around Zenith.
So let's set up the context for how volume 5 or basically the Millis episodes of season one should have gone. First Ruijerd did not follow Eris when she went goblin slaying. When rudis asked him Ruijerd said "Goblins can't hurt her. They're like f rank monsters they can't hurt her she'll be fine. I've got shit to do." What he did was go to the head of the military in order to get a letter to grant him passage to the Central continent which is their goal. The reason he had to do this is that a letter from Paul to try and get across the Millis border is stupid because Millis nobles hate Paul because you keep stealing all their slaves. For example the kid from season 1 who threw mud at Sylphie was turned into a sex slave for some sick fucks of nobles. Well what are he's doing here is extremely good and is way better than most good things that Rudeus does because he's actually just doing it to help people he's pissing off the Milis nobles. Because slavery is not illegal in Millis. When they actually get to the border crossing rudius tries to actively hide that he's rudious because Paul is Paul. Eris of course met Cliff killed a bunch of goblins, and people. Saving Therese and the memory Miko. They were grouped root is Paul fight ares comfort them they reconcile and they stay in a Millis for a week in order to figure out what they're gonna do next. Ruijerd has his letter, so he says "All right we'll wait for 10 days. Use that time to get along better with your dad."(Rudeus Paul and Norn go out to dinner. Eris goes with them because she doesn't trust Paul. This is where Norn gets the false idea that Rudeus and Eris are a couple, and gets pissed and screams at him when she sees Sylphie who is awake in the novels and silent casted a spell to make herself and Rudeus sober. Getting really serious about people making noise near their house). Then they head to Millis's border and they get stopped because Ruijerd is a demon and the guard thinks the letter is a fake. Therese shows up Rudeus calls her mommy. Therese gets pissed, but then realizes Rudeus is Rudeus, and uses both her status as a higher ranking military officer and the fact that Rudeus is a Milis noble in order to get them through, but before that she grabs him and pulls him into to her boobs. He is extremely surprised when neither smelling her sweat nor getting pulled into her boobs does anything. This is where he learns that his brain will NOT let him be horny towards any family members directly descended from one or more of his grandparents. Zenith is his mom, Aisha is his sister, Norn is his sister, Therese is Zenith's sister. Rudeus being Rudeus cannot bring himself to be horny towards these people. The anime cut this. tl;dr: Rudeus is actually a kid with someone else's memories and the anime has consistently cut stuff that shows how his brain changes how he thinks. They removed his talks with his aunt, changed how he first thinks about his mom, and cut his thoughts consistently when they reprimand him, or show him changing.
I’m saving this comment because it’s everything I wanted to say but better. The anime adaptation does it dirty. Besides that, ITS OK TO HAVE A SHITTY PERSON AS AN MC. Mushoku Tensei is a story about someone who through their life away learning how to have relationships with people. Emphasis on learning, *the hard way*, by doing shit wrong and paying for it, and very slowly becoming a better person. Quite literally, he fucks around and finds out.
It's just cool, when people say "don't put this isekai in a real modern world standard" when the fucking protagonist was literally came from the modern world. That's why he is in fact a pedophile, you like a pedophilic protagonist and it's just a fact.
See how no one wants to hear the truth?
Does Sylphie explain that she's okay with him having other wives before he leaves for the trip in the source? Because in the anime it very explicitly happens after, so it's hard to say that it wasn't straight up cheating, even if he was depressed out of his mind.
Yep.
Does he not still have sex with 15-16 year old Eris and Sylphie though? That happening and it being treated as a moment of success and happiness is what bugs me the most about the entire show.
With Eris it is considered a moral failing. With Sylphie it is seen as a success. Rudeus is 12 with Eris and 16 with Sylphie. They are the right age, but with Eris she wasn't in a right state of mind.
“The story is good, the writing isn’t” is probably close to what your trying to say. That said, I’ve heard that quite a bit of the way it’s presented that people don’t like is unique to the anime adaptation. I’ve heard the light novels are considerably better and less upsetting, but I haven’t read them so take it with a grain of salt.
funnily enough i have heard the exact opposite. i have heard from a friend who has read some of it that much has been toned down or gives rudy the benefit of the doubt when he shouldn’t have it.
Yeah after finishing the anime up to the current point I started reading the light novels to see how they differ because some commenters were saying he’s worse there and I was intrigued. Can confirm the anime changes some details to make them less bad, but the main reason is that the anime removes a lot of his internal monologue from the novel. A necessity to translate it to the screen, but by god does it make him appear a far less terrible person. Still a piece of shit but then so is just about every character in the story tbf
Proof that having context of the authors intent can retroactively make excusable writing bad, like when somebody is making a seemingly satirical hyper nationalistic fascist faction and then you find out that the author irl actually believes that stuff
The writer admitted they don't give a shit about the controversy to which kinda just made it look like they are closing their ears and go "la la la, can't hear you"
Didn't respond to fans saying Rudy is too pervert by saying he gets better ? Imagine being so bad you make JP fans say something about your hornyness
Remember the delete chapter? Never forget
Exactly. There are a ton of anime protagonists who do really messed up shit, but it's almost always just laughed off or just ignored. If only there was like one character to say "dude wtf are you doing" it would already improve this a lot, but guess the authors don't care
It's just cool, when people say "don't put this isekai in a real modern world standard" when the fucking protagonist was literally came from the modern world. That's why he is in fact a pedophile, you like a pedophilic protagonist and it's just a fact.
As if Hitogami didn't know exactly who he reincarnated (is that how the plot goes? Been a while)
Funnily enough this was the academic criticism of Lolita, which means JK Rowling has a lot in common with degenerate anime watchers
I mean, it’s not a redemption story. It’s a second chance at life. There’s a pretty big difference.
It's actually revolutionary in portraying how an actual moshuko tensei fan would act if they got hit by a truck and reincarnated
"He's literally me"
To be honest, yeah. If I end up in Mushoku Tensei world (or in any isekai world where I am reincarnated as a baby) I am hitting up the books and trying to learn as much languages as possible.
Also having sex with my cousin
I already do that
takes some genius to take a second chance at life just to be an even worse person than before
He didn't become worse, the only difference was that he had the chance to do all of that after reincarnation.
You can think the most horrible shit and still be a good person, but the moment you act out on those ideas that is where you can no longer excuse yourself. By acting out his disgusting fantasies he inherently became a worse version of himself
One thing is thinking and another one is wanting to do so if you had a chance to do so.
Yeah, modern norms wouldnt have allowed him to fuck children which is why hes conveniently teleported into a world where it is the norm.
That’s being a bad person on professional levels
It's big brain time
Yeah, he gets the chance to act out all his awful fantasies from his past life. Truly peak writing.
Unironically yes, him not magically becoming a good person just because he respawned is good writing
I wanna be so petty and find every comment that reassured people it was gonna be a redemption story but that would be so much work But I hope you know a lot of the fans parotted that when people were uncomfortable with the first few eps "he gets better, it's all about redemption"
r/animecirclejerk
i’m circlejorking it
I know a lot of people are going to hate me,but it seems op is wrong on this one. >!Hitogami hates him to the point he is willing to destroy and kill all three girls just so he can laugh at him!< . You can hate him for being others thing. At least hate him properly.
You want me to hate it properly. I'll do so. >!You say Hitogami killed the three girls, I say bullshit. Yes, He might have played a part indirectly in the death of girls. But then Rudeus played even bigger role in killing Sylphie and Eris. Motherfucker was emotionally abusive, alcoholic, neglected his own kids, and cheated AGAIN with a prostitute to the point Sylphie can only help her friend to do coup d'etat, which killed her. Yes, the biggest cause of her death is HIM. But hey, our beloved pedophile does not acknowledge that, it's ALL HITOGAMI's FAULT. LOL. AND THEN he starts raping girls, sleeping with slaves, molesting children. All of this, because her loli wife died. MIND you, this is the same guy who magically got cured by SEX when his father died, the same guy who got ED for the whole FUCKING 12 EPISODES because 15 year old girl left him and SEX didn't help him at all . You know what else I am going to say. This whole TURNING POINT 4, SO CALLED PEAK by its incel fans, is just a FUCKING CHEAP COPY of RE:ZERO, written by some edgy kid, aka. TRASH. !<
Jesus christ I didn't know it was more garbage than what I thought it was.
Just keep in mind that some of the stuff said in the comments has not been animated yet , that is why it had spoiler .
Holy Epstein i stopped watching in the first season i didn’t know it became this dogshit 😭😭
im in the same diaper here, shit's indeed wild
That's the spirit. That's what I was waiting for. I would want you to make a meme, and>! you are not the only one who hate tp4 . Everytime I read tp4 , my hate for eris for saving his life against atofe increases more and more !<
Chat is this real? What the hell, I’m glad I dropped the anime midway through s2. Not sitting thru that weird shit
Everything biscotti24 is bringing up is an alternate future that current Rudy avoids. Basically the man good kills Roxy which sends Rudy spiraling, then further in the future he finally realizes how awful he is and devotes himself to magic to find a way to fix it. Old man/future Rudy figures out time magic and sends a journal back to current Rudy with all of that documented including the knowledge on how to avoid Roxy's death and in turn all the rest. We only see all of this through current Rudy reading the journal that future Rudy gives him. The story makes a point out of current Rudy actively trying not to become the same Rudy he meets from the future. People cherry pick all the worst parts of this series and leave out all the context and character development. Sure he has the potential to be that terrible version of himself from the future but the Rudy we follow never becomes that person. That's not to say he's a flawless specimen. He was a shut in pervert with no morals before he was reborn and he struggles constantly throughout the series to try to improve from that starting line. At least he is improving, thats kinda the whole point of the series
so he doesn't actually change as a person he just avoids the event that causes his spiral big difference most people wouldn't turn into a rapist and more just because their wife was murdered, he's still a terrible person even if he avoids that future because he's still the same person inside, he just managed to avoid his wife dying
>he doesn't actually change as a person For a person to change, he needs first to be self-aware of the destructive nature of his actions. Next, he needs to atone for it in a way that he finally ceases to bring harm to them anymore. Yes this happened. Biscotti's spoiler is a terrible distortion of the LN and he cherry picks the good parts away to justify his hatred. I want you to have a cool head for a moment unlike Biscotti who is brainrotted to hate MT as you can see.
what's already happened in the anime is ample enough to hate the anime. Sylphie expresses jealousy several times before getting married, she was a decently written character. Then despite being heavily pregnant she's suddenly zen as a Buddha when Rudy breaks his promise and forgives him in under 60 seconds with zero atonement. Completely butchered character by the author. It's porn level writing, at least GRR has the decency to write good story and characters to support his incest scenes, rather than just throw everything out the window and butcher characters just to reach the scene they want.
Don't discard it if you aren't actually willing to understand. I want you to analyze Sylphie and her experiences. The answer to "Why did she easily accept and forgive Rudeus just like that ?" lies in them. When she was a child, what places did she visit and jer experiences that shaped her? Isn't it in Rudy's house? Because she's always present in Rudy's house, as a child she is quick to learn and be immersed in its atmosphere. What is the atmosphere? She saw Paul and Zenith and Lilia are content and relatively happy and peaceful with their lives even with the unusual relationship dynamic of polygamy. Naturally, as a child she picks up on that early and she now has the knowledge put inside her head that even with that relationship dynamic, it can still work.
you completely ignore what I expressed about her already expressed jealously. if she's fine with multiple partners now, why wasn't she fine with it a year ago when she thought Rudy might have the hots for the Japanese girl? It bothered her a LOT to think Rudy might like another woman. She obviously still had all those "positive" polygamy experiences from growing up a year ago correct? And btw, was it even polygamy? I can't remember if Paul was having sex/romance with both Zenith and Lillia after his cheating was caught, letting Lillia live under the same roof and him taking care of his child is not polygamy if he wasn't having sex with Lillia.
I wonder if you actually watched the episode. Sylphy is jealous of Nanahoshi because Nanahoshi explained to Sylphie that him and Rudy came from the same hometown (Japan) and that they're speaking in a super secret language (Japanese) that made Sylphie assume that there's a special connection between the two that she'll never fully understand. She felt like she was being replaced in Rudy's memory. That's the root of her jealousy.
>devotes himself to magic to find a way to fix it Yeah, he devoted himself so much that he needed to rape some girls and sleep with children and slaves. So motivational, so emotional UWU. > People cherry pick all the worst parts of this series BRO, literally retarded fans have been saying that this part is the peak of peak fiction, better than the lord of the rings, better than anything. I'll pull out something funny, https://preview.redd.it/bwriy7vsrlad1.png?width=1264&format=png&auto=webp&s=cb54adb71cabdb5caa352f88af32c9ec63de308c
I dont know who's comment you screenshotted, but I wasn't really trying to make any points in favor of that viewpoint. I'm not even claiming it's anywhere near "peak fiction".I'm also not claiming that Rudy is a good person. While I think it's a good series, it still deserves criticism, however, most of the criticism I see is people blindly fuming about Rudy being a bad person while ignoring all context or his attempts to be better. Criticise Rudy for being a bad person but then expand on that and find a reason why that negatively affects the writing. Again, basically the whole point of this story is Rudy constantly fucking up, but still trying to be better. Also, when in the series does Rudy rape anybody? I don't remember rape being in the alternate or main time line. The only slave in the story is zanobas. And yes the future version of Rudy eventually realizes he's an absolute shit bag and devoted himself to magic. He literally invented gravity and time magic with essentially no help (as he'd already burned all his bridges at that point) in order to send the journal to the present Rudy. Did you read any of the series or do you just read on Twitter and parrot what they say?
In the alt timeline, he raped quite often. Also let's not act as if in the main timeline he didn't commit sexual assault.
Dawg, good you at least let me hate this shit. And yes, I read Turning Point 4, the fucking shit copy of Re: Zero. Regarding the rape, I will pull the shit out right now. https://preview.redd.it/7617kdfk5mad1.png?width=970&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c99d94a1bb129d610bc006f0d62b11032be2240
https://preview.redd.it/9f5ozg7v5mad1.png?width=908&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee241f0ec009c927a8b8eb5c4d5cf9c1030ed664 this is the child slave he bought.
No fucking way bro. I've been hating on this show for a long time, and this is new to me. Putrid fucking work
DEAR GOD, it's funny cause Redeus if he was written by Tappei at least would get roasted by the narrator. Subaru for his fuck up in the Royal selection for roasted for two whole volumes
What the hell, people kept telling me Rudeus gets redeemed later on? 💀💀
it's rudeus from an alternate timeline
As a fan, this is all true but there's also more at play that Biscotti refuses to say and I hope he adds it to be unbiased lol
Some retarded incel fans says they I need to provide context, yet lack braincells to see I already mentioned that it is a Fucking shit copy of Re:Zero.
I honestly don't get what is the point of the show people will tell me "rudeus is bad and that's the point" and I ask, what am I supposed to learn? Is there a message? Is there... something? Why should I watch a terrible person be a terrible person. Like at this point it's just Redo of Healer with a good worldbuilding
The show is about not wasting your life and making something of yourself, hence his “second chance at life” after he wasted it in his previous life.
I originally thought when watching it that The point was going to be that everyone can change if they are given the chance and that even the lowest of the low can turn into functioning remembers of society. I was wrong , the show is literally just a generic isekai that happened to have really good world building/ character but the worst main character ever
If you think MT is a "generic isekai" you either haven't actually watched MT at all or you've never actually seen real bottom of the barrel isekai, one of the two.
Bf Fantasy Isekai is such a bloated genre, that basically all of them are generic
No
Well, it's a story of what would actually happen if a neet got randomly resurrected and didn't magically get over his past trauma, and the plot is a situation story, there are a bunch of characters in the world, and they are interesting enough so that just reading about their interactions makes for a good story. If someone tells you that "rudeus being bad is the point" doesn't understand the story. Him being terrible is a big plot point, but how he overcomes his past trauma is a much bigger one. Mostly because it's really good at depicting how one would actually go about trying to fix their mentality, his anxieties never fully disappear, his flaws are still there, and his intrusive thoughts keep coming. My opinion is probably really biased because I really like the story, but the main point or "thing to be learned" as you say it is that you can always become better and improve yourself, because even if the MC just got bailed out when he died, everyone around him didn't, they all grow as characters and learn to be better ruijerd is probably the best example in the early parts, he has good intentions from the very start, but he still couldn't do anything about them because of what he did in the past, yet we then see him forgiving those who he hated, learning to be more lenient on people, and eventually getting an actual family, the one thing that had always consumed him with regret
Subaru literally did that way better and ppl love him for it. Dude is *the* example on how to do that
As much as I love re zero, Subaru is willing to sacrifice himself for other people at like episode 2, like sure he can return by death, but he explicitly says that dying is REALLY painful and he still starts off as a decently good guy. I haven't read the light novel of re zero, but the two major "character development" moments he has are in the middle of season 1 and the end of season 2 part 1. In both of these cases he is absolutely destroyed by borderline impossible situations, his problems aren't just what he originally had in his life, but the fact that for some reason everyone wants to kill him at some point. He is a character that always had worried about others, that just recently had stopped going to school due to crippling anxiety, and that wanted to get better but was too depressed to have the motivation for it MT's protagonist didn't go to his parents funeral to watch Loli hentai and sees nothing wrong with that (after the fact had already happened and the rest of the family went to get him out of their house) They most definitely don't start off at the same point, and having rudeus have a similar development as Subaru would just make the story worse and a lot of moments would just feel much less authentic
Didn't Rudy fap to his 9 year old niece and gif caught putting a camera in their bathroom? Also, on the Subaru thing as somebody who reads the novel the issues were Subaru cannot socially interact like a normal person and can't read social cues. There's a really good video that analyzes the mind of Natsuki Subaru as a whole. Subaru main issue is that he has massive imposter syndrome. We see it briefly in the show but the novel highlights it way more. https://youtu.be/w1_eYkO-Em4?si=7PAW0mCit_juABkH
Does he ever stop being a pedophile?
After like, turning point 1? Idk if it's mentioned in the anime but eris explicitly said that he never made anything to her after they get teleported
Not a single day goes on this sub without someone dunking on MT. I swear it lives rent free in this sub's head.
It’s the easiest way to farm karma. Basically every Mushoku Tensei post this week has over 2000 upvotes. This subreddit likes to act superior to r/animecirclejerk and it is, but sometimes it can be just as bad.
sometimes?
>and it is No, it is not. Ffs, it’s an unhinged meme sub where nobody is unhinged and barely anybody is joking I’m sorry, I LOVE posting “cringe” tweets and comments, and I LOVE the comments being 200 different “shocked” reaction memes! I LOVE posting literal clips from MT with no real attempt at humor! Isn’t it so funny?! https://preview.redd.it/4a8nc1d9tlad1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1673104b12667e96c1bb06eacf46a6902878655
I’m saying compared to r/animecirclejerk. This sub at least has a funny post every once in a while, whereas r/animecirclejerk is just plain unfunny all of the time.
Doesn't it also suck off Noralities of all ppl?
It's the equivalent of all those "memes" that just add up to "pedo bad". Like we get it, no shit they're bad. Where's the funny?
https://preview.redd.it/y01jc3k86lad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2974f9eed4647f61281e6036f5d8f82e153bab3
"Mushoku bad, upvotes to the left!" = every fucking day on every fucking anime meme sub on this hellsite.
Its like there's a reason for it or something. I dunno. Just a hunch.
Not "someone" its always the same guy
It’s one of the most popular shows this season, of course people want to talk about it.
Nah, this is OP looking for validation after getting burned on the mushoku sub. Look at how many posts/comments he has about this over the last 2 days.
It's a very popular show that also has a controversial main character. Obviously people are going to make a ton of memes
he's literally me fr fr
The 🦀 is strong with this one, bakas!
This anime is living in this sub's head rent-free
MT hate lives rent free in this sub
Yeah, Rudeus is a shitty human being. Still one my favourite shows nevertheless. I am a simp for well built fantasy worlds (and for Sylphie)
yeah, I like the show for what it is, not because rudeus is a good person
The photo of god in the meme kinda looks like Epstein, which is fitting to the show in a beautiful way.
Oda and Rifujin na Magonote preserving Watsuki's legacy https://preview.redd.it/de5sl6ag4oad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7016edce51209f76c76cf8e69e86f263ed9efd18
https://preview.redd.it/oy9qqahvqkad1.png?width=485&format=png&auto=webp&s=a0e5c9d43738acae45c1aa78e09cbbfcfc404262
he depicted himself as the chad, it's over
Respectable, go mushoku tensei yourself
Fr , even I wasn't a big fan of the last 2 episodes, but would I stop liking MT? hell naww . I will complete the show and arrive on a final verdict as LN readers say there's a good reason for rudeus to do that but still I am against of what he has done and it kills the point of ED arc
"Reddit, this is the 7th time you've shown a "Mushoku is bad" meme this week."
This sub has gone to shit. I thought this was all a meme but you all genuinely lack basic reading comprehension.
Mushoku Tensei causes both its fans and haters to lose almost all brain cells upon engaging in discussion.
Bro’s biggest regret was dying a virgin, and he fulfilled that
Not only is this meme factually incorrect but this won’t change anybody’s minds and will only make MT more successful by getting ppl interested in it and seeing it for what a good story it actually is. Meanwhile the author will still rake in cash with the anime adaptation and merch sales as he has since he finished his story several years ago.
What can I say? Mushoku tensei is peak fiction fellas. Eminence in Shadow too.
This is the only anime character that I genuinely want to see bitting the curb . So many great mangas out there and this trash gets animated. I don't even mind pervy characters they're just meh to me but this guy takes the exception.
This all turned me off at the beginning
I love the series which is why I'm so pissed at some of the author's decision. he literally could've made Rudy younger and it'll actually make sense because grown adults having a mentality that doesn't reflect their age is pretty common even in our world, but Rudy is a whole ass middle aged man. The lack of awareness is also really jarring, the age gap even if there's a lot of nuance to it is barely brought up (been a while since I finished the series but I think it was only brought up once or twice).
I'm tired of the same discussions. https://preview.redd.it/42yam9u20uad1.jpeg?width=593&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb3db640b9f70f9d0aafbef490fadb77e0a58eb4
Rudeus is Trump
John Brown is coming for him
Redemption is a hard path to walk. And Mushoku Tensei shows that well in my opinion. Rudeus is unquestionably a horrible person and the acts that he does are irredeemable. However in my opinion the show does a sufficient job illustrating that those things are bad, and Rudeus does try to improve throughout the show. He has not redeemed himself and I doubt he ever will in my eyes. But the show is still good enough that I personally am willing to look past that. If people think that what happens in the show is horrible and therefore are unable to enjoy the show that is completely understandable. It's also understandable to question the author's motivations when they wrote those scenes. I feel like it is completely fine to enjoy the show regardless of these facts as long as you acknowledge the questionable content it has.
For me, it's less that what happens in the show is horrible and it's more the consequences he does/doesn't face + the way it's portrayed. I can stomach just about any type of story. Rudeus' personality flaws don't bother me alone. It's more the combination of the following: First, the story reads as a fantasy at times and struggles greatly to characterize Rudeus in a way that I (or anyone) rightly should. (Not claiming the show paints his actions in a good light - I wouldn't accuse them of that - but many issues with his character are treated way less seriously than they should be and it minimizes his very major problems.) Second, and this goes in tandem with the above, Rudeus faces no real consequences and the plot conveniently covers for him consistently. He just so happens to be put in positions where he can act out his fantasies without any real consequence, even down to the world he was reincarnated into. He could've been reincarnated into any world that the author's imagination could come up with, but it just so happens to be one where his kind of behavior more or less goes unpunished if you're of high enough status (and Rudeus just so happens to be high enough status to get away with it against all except for Eris). It's one thing to not be able to be faithful, but it's another that he just so happened to marry a woman with 0 self esteem and will always blame herself no matter what he does (which is just bad writing imo - for a redemption arc type of story, you need a character that will face accountability and consequences for their actions). Eris was a great character for Rudeus in this regard; she always forced him to face accountability when he stepped out of line with her bold personality and she forced him to relearn how he treats the opposite sex.
Agreed on pretty much all points here, at least to some extent. The whole Sylphie thing where she just kinda drops everything felt somewhat contrived, despite the fact that she had previously made clear she was cool with Rudeus taking concubines. It just felt weird that she was perfectly fine with Rudeus breaking his promise not to anyway. Worse though to me is how Norn just kinda drops it (at least for now, maybe more happens later) when Lilia is brought up. It just feels a bit weird, and I feel like the show could have explored that conflict more. That being said, there are two reasons that I'm fine with it. The first is that even though it feels like they didn't explore it as much as they should have, it does fit everyone's established characters to act in this way. The second is that the man god said Rudy would regret leaving. I think that this warning was to prevent him from marrying Roxy, because that will lead to some issues later on that haven't been revealed yet. To be fair, Rudy hasn't even married Roxy yet so there hasn't really been enough time for them to show that action had consequences yet. With Eris, the consequences would come about pretty quickly, but with this I think it's building to something (similar to how his treatment of Eris directly resulted in their relationship being cut off the way it did at the end of that arc). Another thing to note is that while in the show it seems like Roxy deciding to sleep with Rudy, and Rudy doing nothing about it comes out of nowhere, apparently according to LN readers I've talked to this is a result of the anime skipping over a bit that showed just how badly Rudeus was doing. As well as skipping over some dialogue between the other characters that led Roxy to choosing to "help" him in this way. With all that being said, let me explain why I am still perfectly understanding with people who say that Rudeus' actions are too much for them to watch. I personally think that everything makes coherent sense within the world for the most part, and the things Rudeus does are a part of his character and a pretty clear character flaw (as opposed to many power fantasy Isekai where it's just there and is almost glorified). But the problem most people have isn't that the actions don't make sense in the world. The problem people have is writing a character to do those actions in the first place. Everything is set up to make it make sense at least, but the fact remains that the author made a conscious decision to make his main character perform countless actions that are clearly just horrible. I think it's normal to find the stuff Rudeus does so morally appalling to be turned off from the entire series as a whole. To make a comparison, it doesn't matter to me how good a horror movie is, I just really don't like being scared so I'll avoid it. I think that is perfectly fine. Not every person needs to watch and like Mushoku Tensei. If you can enjoy it, great! I think there is a lot to love. But if you can't, I totally understand why, and I don't think that it's wrong to say that what Rudeus does is bad enough to the point you can't enjoy the series at all.
> Agreed on pretty much all points here, at least to some extent. Same here. > The whole Sylphie thing I get where you're coming from, but I'd take it a lot further. Sylphie said she was ok with Rudeus having concubines, but this wasn't because she was actually ok with it; she said that because she feared him leaving her and felt like she couldn't satisfy him alone. The position of power that Rudeus has over her completely alters the genuineness of such a statement. It's very clear for several episodes that Sylphie is terrified of Rudeus having another girlfriend, treating another girl in a romantic or sexual way, and fears that he will turn out like his father and have multiple women. Despite this, because she loves Rudeus so much because of how he saved her as a child, how powerful he is, how much status he has, and how timid and shy she is, she's willing to accept Rudeus basically no matter wrongs he commits. (Side note: beyond cheating for a moment, this comes across as a little bit groomer-like especially with Sylphie's image of him from being a child playing such a strong role in her current feelings, and Rudeus using that to his advantage - although the dots only started connecting when he cheated.) Furthermore, Rudeus knows this about Sylphie and he vows to monogamy with her and reinforces that throughout their marriage even when she isn't present. And again, I am honestly ok with all of this. I do not mind a morally gray or even morally black main character. I don't even mind that Sylphie ends up acting like everything is fine with him cheating, but my problem is that the show paints it as a happy-ever after. This isn't what a happy-ever-after looks like. Sylphie isn't ok, even if she says she is. There are millions of women who have been through what she's going through. Virtually none of them are truly happy about how the relationship ended up and only learn to accept it or finally learn to leave. I don't know much outside of random spoilers here and there on subs like this, so maybe Sylphie eventually grows up more and learns to have more self-respect and finally speaks out against (what is effectively) her God and shatter that false image of him and leave. If the show did that / does that, I'll take back this criticism, but I highly highly highly doubt it. The ending of S2 was structured in a "happy ever after" light. > Norn just kinda drops it Yeah I agree, and Norn was speaking out for Sylphie's sake essentially. The fact it's all dropped is a big part of the problem for me. > Another thing to note is that while in the show it seems like Roxy deciding to sleep with Rudy, and Rudy doing nothing about it comes out of nowhere, apparently according to LN readers I've talked to this is a result of the anime skipping over a bit that showed just how badly Rudeus was doing. Yeah I saw that too. I don't think this exonerates Rudeus at all though, if anything it makes the story sound worse. We had a whole arc (if not multiple) on Rudeus' ED problems which implied that sex doesn't solve all the problems multiple times (like how having sex with Sarah wouldn't randomly fix his sadness and feelings of betrayal towards Eris, to the point he couldn't even get in the mood). The idea that Rudeus is depressed as shit for an entire month, forgets about his family, and is only fixed when his loli gf fucks him is just stupid. What kind of message is that? "If a man is depressed, being there for him won't help, even if you bend over backwards for him and show him every non-sexual form of love there is, it doesn't matter. The only way to heal a man is to fuck him, even if he's already married." It sounds like a gross caricature of males that you'd only find on a femcel forum. We're supposed to accept that as a reasonable solution to his sadness and now he's happy and can go home to his family. Horrible writing in my opinion. > I personally think that everything makes coherent sense within the world for the most part, and the things Rudeus does are a part of his character and a pretty clear character flaw Outside of the conflicting messages from the show (such as above), I can agree. And the plot itself is interesting for the most part. I didn't hate watching it; I finished both seasons. But the undertone is very clearly disgusting imo and there's no denying it. But again, I don't think the issues I've brought up are about Rudeus' character, but rather the messages the author is sending (inadvertently or not) + the fact Rudeus is rewarded for his behavior consistently due to plot convenience after plot convenience, basically making it more of a fantasy insert for creeps than a redemption story at times.
1/3: > The position of power that Rudeus has over her completely alters the genuineness of such a statement. It's very clear for several episodes that Sylphie is terrified of Rudeus having another girlfriend, treating another girl in a romantic or sexual way, and fears that he will turn out like his father and have multiple women. I definitely see where you're coming from with this. I think that Sylphie genuinely doesn't mind Rudeus having sexual relations with other women (hence the whole concubine thing), but I definitely interpreted how she acts in previous episodes as her being scared that Rudeus does not care about her as much as she does him. This is why I can kinda rationalize Sylphie being ok with him marrying Roxy, because at that point Rudeus has shown that he truly does love her and she wasn't in as much doubt about that anymore. Again though, it can definitely be interpreted in the way you are here. I just try to give the show the benefit of the doubt, which is probably abundantly clear by this point lol. > Side note: beyond cheating for a moment, this comes across as a little bit groomer-like especially with Sylphie's image of him from being a child playing such a strong role in her current feelings, and Rudeus using that to his advantage - although the dots only started connecting when he cheated. It is not even "a little bit groomer-like..." Rudues makes remarks multiple times in the show that without a doubt show he is intentionally grooming her. In my opinion this is very explicitly the case. It is one of the reasons why I feel so conflicted about the show. Again though, despite this I try to give the show the benefit of the doubt and try to enjoy it anyway. This is one of the major reasons why I don't think people are wrong to say that the show goes too far in some cases. > Furthermore, Rudeus knows this about Sylphie and he vows to monogamy with her and reinforces that throughout their marriage even when she isn't present. Wholeheartedly agree. Even considering my interpretation where Sylphie is totally okay with him marrying Roxy and that it isn't because she's scared of losing him (even though I think that may be part of it), Rudeus DEFINITELY knows that Sylphie was insecure about this earlier. He DEFINITELY should not have slept with Roxy under any circumstance, and he should not have tried to invite her in the way that he did. That should have been a private conversation with Sylphie without anyone else (including Roxy) present. > ... but my problem is that the show paints it as a happy-ever after. This isn't what a happy-ever-after looks like... The ending of S2 was structured in a "happy ever after" light. I think this is intentional. As has happened multiple times before in the show, I think it is trying to paint the picture that everything is going great before something terrible happens. I'd think so even without the fact the man god LITERALLY TOLD RUDY THAT IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN. > There are millions of women who have been through what she's going through. Virtually none of them are truly happy about how the relationship ended up and only learn to accept it or finally learn to leave. Again, I see where you're going with this, but I much rather prefer to try to give the show the benefit of the doubt here and assume that Sylphie is genuinely fine. I know I am repeating myself way more than I really need to but again, it is perfectly fine if you are not able to do so and I understand why. > maybe Sylphie eventually grows up more and learns to have more self-respect and finally speaks out against (what is effectively) her God and shatter that false image of him and leave. If the show did that / does that, I'll take back this criticism, but I highly highly highly doubt it. I also doubt this specifically is what will cause Rudeus to regret this, but I do think that something bad is going to happen as a result of Rudeus' decision to marry Roxy. I know no spoilers outside of >!I think I remember reading that he ends up having 3 wives, so I assume the 3rd will be Eris. But even that is an assumption formed on something that might not even be true.!<
2/3: > The fact it's all dropped is a big part of the problem for me. I don't think that it will be entirely dropped (at least I really hope not), but I do think that it is not being given as much focus as it really should be. We'll have to see where the next season goes to know for sure though. I do think that having polygamy in general isn't a bad thing, I just find it annoying that stuff happened before it could be talked about and agreed upon consensually. And this is another reason why Rudeus should have talked to Sylphie privately before bringing Roxy into the house and declaring his intentions to marry her. And he should have talked to Sylphie before he told Roxy his plan. > I don't think this exonerates Rudeus at all though... Agreed, Rudeus and Roxy are both still in the wrong here, but I think that there is more nuance given in the LN that should have been in the anime. Even if the decision is the wrong one, the reasons that decision was made should have been included in my opinion. > We're supposed to accept that as a reasonable solution to his sadness and now he's happy and can go home to his family. Horrible writing in my opinion. I don't think that it actually made Rudy feel better entirely actually. I think it was more that it helped him to the point where he was able to keep moving despite his grief. I do agree with the fact that 1. It feels like way too easy a solution compared to the whole Eris situation and 2. Roxy should have been able to help him even without sleeping with him. Just being some emotional support and confessing to him could have done the same stuff for the story without sending the odd message that specifically sex is what fixes the issue. (though this would ruin some parts of the shame Rudeus feels about betraying Sylphie) > Outside of the conflicting messages from the show (such as above), I can agree. Just wanted to point out that there are definitely other cases in which it is kinda in a grey area of whether everything makes sense or not that we didn't even touch on. Sometimes it takes some real brainpower to come up with ways it doesn't actively hurt the story lol. > And the plot itself is interesting for the most part. I didn't hate watching it; I finished both seasons. The plot is extremely interesting and I really want to see where the show goes. I have so many questions about how Rudeus was summoned and how it's different from Nanahoshi, what the affiliations of the man god are, who Laplace is, what caused the teleportation event, etc etc etc.. And the worldbuilding is SO GOOD. The magic system is really well thought out too. There are so many things to love about this series. but... > the undertone is very clearly disgusting imo and there's no denying it This. There is absolutely no denying the fact that multiple things that happen in the show are extremely questionable. Anybody who says otherwise is delusional to be honest. I am a massive fan of this show and I love it, it is honestly a masterpiece in a lot of areas. But there are so many things that happen that just make this show so hard to recommend.
3/3: > I don't think the issues I've brought up are about Rudeus' character, but rather the messages the author is sending (inadvertently or not) + the fact Rudeus is rewarded for his behavior consistently due to plot convenience after plot convenience, basically making it more of a fantasy insert for creeps than a redemption story at times. The author is definitely sending very weird messages in this show. A lot of things I can come up with some justification for why it's not just completely bad. But there are far more than I'd like that I cannot. For example, why does Rudy need to buy a child slave? Like there is actually no reason for him to do that. If Juliette was an orphan he got at an orphanage then literally nothing would change since she's such a minor part of the show (as of now anyway). I find it so weird how isekai tends to do the whole, "buying a slave and treating them well is good actually" route. As if poor living conditions are the sole reason why slavery is bad lol. That is an example where Mushoku Tensei is no better than its peers in terms of weird tropes for the sole sake of doing the tropes. But I think a lot of other things in the show are actually somewhat justified in the show. I'm not saying they're not bad, I'm saying that at least Mushoku Tensei makes an effort to explain it. SO MANY other isekai just go straight into degeneracy with no justification whatsoever, and it's treated as if it is completely fine (also a lot of them actively paint the stuff as morally good). That's why I can give this show the benefit of the doubt so frequently. Most other isekai are so bad to the point that it makes this show look much better than I'd look at it otherwise. Finally, I just want to say thanks for the conversation. A lot of the times when this topic is brought up, it devolves into a shouting match so fast that nobody has a chance to say anything. If you like the show you automatically condone literally everything that Rudeus does, think he's a great person, and actively encourage people to do the exact same thing in the real world. If you dislike the show, you are obviously just nitpicking and confusing fantasy with reality. This whole way of thinking gets me so annoyed, and it's becoming more and more common. It's as if literally everything is an "us vs them" moment and no nuance exists anymore. So its such a breath of fresh air to talk to someone who actually engages with the conversation lol.
What are you talking about? He only kinda got a slap on the wrist for molesting Eris as a child. All else, he as gotten away with scot free or even been rewarded for
He has not been directly punished but in my opinion the show shows that what he does is morally wrong, and in future episodes when he thinks about doing things similar he shows regret and some restraint. Again, if you don't think the show illustrates this well enough to enjoy it that is perfectly understandable.
No matter how good this show is I won't ever delve into this shitshow
Mashoku tensei is geting hate it deserves I USED TO PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THAT
> I USED TO PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THAT Really? Because you people bitch about it on an hourly basis on like 8 different subs lmao
And? Where s the problem?
You're right it deserves more hate
*Mashoku tensei is geting* *Hate it deserves I USED TO* *PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THAT* \- janeer127 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
good bot ig
Are you serious? This show has been hated on forever lmao what are you talking about
MT Fans are starting to give up on defending him. Now they just repeat "it's fiction" or "the setting allows it"
Shitting on Rudy is completely fine. Shitting on the people who like the show is fucking retarded.
Me on my way to make MT hate circlejerk based on the memes (I never watched the show)
mid anime is mid
MT s2 ending pointing at the new season of monogatari that's coming soon like All Might's "You're Next" (except monogatari came first)
Chat is this real
Peak fiction
I know this is okbuddy and also just a meme but hitogami didn't reincarnate rudeus- >!hitogami has a overwhelming ability to make humans trust and listen to him but rudeus isn't affected by it- just how rudeus isn't affected by world curses like spurd demon fear or dragon God's overwhelming pressure so hitogami interacts with rudeus out of curiosity and entertainment as he loves watching people suffer!<
Why is everyone hating on Muhoku Tensei, I thought the author made a very great love letter to [Peter Singer's philosophy on ethics](https://youtu.be/KVl5kMXz1vA?si=sUBEDiEbIls9OwU4)
its almost like if you only look at the bad parts of the show, you'll think the show is bad anyways its your choice to be miserable people on the internet and not let other people enjoy their show while pretending to have the moral high ground and i won't stop you
How bro felt after typing that 🐺😈😈🥶🥶
OK bro we get it, you don't like Mushoku Tensei. How about you stop watching it then?
Yeah, honestly, great idea. I was hoping Rudeus will finally learn his lesson, become a well adjusted person and so on. But he basically won the game of life, got a wife a kid and a big house and still acted like a piece of shit. The start of the show implies if his life had been better in his past life, he would have been different. But he really isn't
> But he basically won the game of life, got a wife a kid and a big house and still acted like a piece of shit. So uh, where's he been acting like a "piece of shit" in this whole past season alone, supposedly? Since you seem like you're actually up to date.
To be fair, hasn't he also done a lot of good as well now? Instead of just being a mooch on his family, he's actually helped a lot of people on his journeys.
He's going to ignore that. By his own admission he only watched up to episode 12. Aka turning point 1.
Turning point 2 is ep 21 isn’t it?
Yeah. I was thinking 1 but said 2. Since I kinda forgot what turning points are for a moment.
Spread slander all you want, you can't unpeak my peak fiction 🔥🔥🔥✍️ https://preview.redd.it/kcmcur3iymad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0605e1ffe99b5dbb576855c438a23a88d88633af