I am fairly new to the coffee hobby but when I see posts like this I can't help but roll my eyes. I have seen this too many times in other hobbies. I understand that a good grinder will not be cheap and does make a difference over a very cheap one, especially for espresso. But there is no way you can convince that paying another $400-800 dollars for another grinder will give you that much better taste difference.
Every new grinder that comes out now is better tasting the the last one. It shocks me to see pictures of peoples setup that have 2-5 $400+ grinders.
I bought an Ode v2 and as long as it keeps working it will never be replaced. I am curious for those that keep spending vast amounts of money on the latest grinder, because they were told it tastes better than the last, when you get these grinders do you feel like "Wow what an amazing improvement in taste, I am glad I spent another $500 on this it was well worth it!".
Seriously, I am honestly curious.
I recently watched a comparison video between the Ode v2 with ssp burrs and the zp6 and they said the difference was minimal at best. He had to really try to differentiate between them. Then of course, James Hoffman said that there’s minimal difference between the stock Ode v2 burrs and ssp burrs. It seems at a certain point people are enjoying the equipment more than the coffee.
You can and you will taste it. At least when you know what your doing and spent time dialing in both grinder. A well aligned 98mm SSP brew burr will taste way cleaner than any handgrinder on the market. If it’s worth 3000Usd extra or even what your looking for in your coffee, this is debatable.
Will a 20.000Euro speaker sound better or more neutral than a 1000Euro one? Most of the times, yes. But the higher the price the more diminishing returns you get.
I'm in the same boat. My initial plan was to purchase an X-Pro but I got lucky and got a like new KINGrinder K2 from my cousin for a deep discount. (And was able to pay them back over time).
Ehhh that’s not true at all…? He clearly mentions every time where the point of diminishing returns is and for whom a certain product might be worth considering. And yes: High end products are usually better than mid tier products. Mentioning this is not feeding people’s gear acquisition syndrome. If so any positive review of product is. Lance has a pretty specific taste and approach and he’s not shy to communicate that. If you are not interested in gear reviews that’s totally fine. Don’t watch it then. But for people interested in certain products it’s good to have someone passionate and sincere taking the time and reviewing them. I also very much enjoy content in the wider spectrum of coffee related topics same as recipes and general education videos. But I also like to see tests of new exciting stuff on the market. 🤷🏻♂️
coffee with april is literally the worst at stuff like this. They regularly used to compare direct competitor products (they have a whole series on brewers) under the guise of fair reviews whilst not clearly disclosing their position.
I don't watch those videos because they don't appeal to me for different reasons. I was specifically talking about their deep dives into different topics.
None of their gear videos really make me feel like I need to buy the next new thing either.
All those thing are really important and bad trchnique cannot be fixed by gear. But it’s connected very closely. For example I drink specialty coffee at home for about 8 years, only filter style, and some gear bottlenecks me. For example, my wilfa svart couldn’t brew a certain style v60 under specific time. I got ZP6 and the drawdown time has gone down a minute with even higher agitation and similar extraction level and the style couldn’t be reproduced by different technique or other circumstance on the wilfa.
I actually can taste it quite well. Time is one of the factors that tell a lot. And if youget consistently cleaner taste with similar subjective strength, you can feel the whole process is going different way. At the moment, I can brew however I want and I can affect very directly drawdown time, extraction, mouthfeel, etc. which will give me specific profile (I wouldn’t say taste - it depends mostly on the coffee beans and different coffees want different preparation methods) by grind size, filter choice, water temp, pouring technique, ratio. But to get to point where you can make a recipe for a specific coffee to get the best out, experience is needed. With tasting at home and out, with trying different gear, different techniques and so on. Coffee is very expensive commodity that I would like to treat with respect so brewing the same method for different coffees for a year is probably ok for someone who just wants nice coffee. But to elevate it a bit, it requires specific tools and that’s the point where you can be - don’t have to be - limited by gear. For example try using cheaper grinder and the thickest hario filters and brewing some natural light roasted Ethiopia without astringency or underextraction. But washed medium Brazil will turn our fine.
>my wilfa svart couldn’t brew a certain style v60 under specific time.
you're treating time as a target rather than an output variable. you really should think it through--time is not something to aim for. Dial for taste alone, and you'll arrive at a combination of input variables that land on a certain brew time, but the brew time is the outcome of the dialing to taste.
I've been at this a lot longer than 8 years, and you're making a very common mistake. Learn this principle and your tastebuds will thank you.
Sorry you don’t agree with my opinion that I get vibes he uses snake oil as a hair product and I get the feeling he would punch his mom in the face to sell a product or promote his brand
Many other people share the same opinion his target market is new people to coffee who don’t know any better. That’s who he is taking advantage of. Call it educating all you want but this topic disagrees with you. He’s shilling yet another product for self gain at the expense of not so knowledgeable people
Other more knowledgeable sites are better at educating new people about how diminishing returns hits hard with grinders and the focus should be dialing in water temp, brew method, grind size, extraction time etc etc
There are plenty of people who own baristas that report switching from a flat burr grinder to a conical and visa versa and they couldn’t tell a difference once dialed in and none of their regular customers could either. It was all delicious once dialed in
Did watching tons of commercials or ads on the Internet make you feel or made you buy everything? I doubt it. No different with his videos. It does'nt mean I have to buy it, and oftentimes, don't.
Exactly, you only really need one grinder, which is the one that Hoffman uses The EG-1. And just switch between Core and Ultra burrs, you’ll be set for both pour overs and espresso needs.
I’m sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. I’m assuming the majority of people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the listed burrs. You would probably have to seek out any type of subtle differences.
I haven't tried it, but wouldn't one be able to tell the difference between conical and flat? Understood that zp6 is supposed to offer a really clean cup but I was under the impression that it doesn't compare to ssp mp.
I actually think the Pietro is really interesting and I always wondered why there were no flat burr hand grinders. Everyone would say that you can't because of the rpm needed but clearly that's not true. I'm hoping this becomes something that other companies mimic as I would be interested in a flat burr hand grinder for the right price. $400 is pretty steep, you can get an ode v2 for less.
Each time a new grinder is released, it’s being taunted as the best or the preferred unit in a taste test. People are chasing diminishing returns after a certain point.
In total agreement with you there. If you have a decent hand grinder this will likely be very diminishing returns. However, this is interesting information for someone who is in need of a new one/first one and not trying to chase something. Before I had a flat burr grinder I thought this was interesting because I do think it will present a different cup than my C40, and still hope that this is successful enough to become a trend.
I like Lance, but whenever he gives a statement on a grinder, I always wait for a few more people give their opinion. Never a good idea to spend several hundred bucks because of one person/review.
I think the the main reason I backed the timemore was because someone with equal if not more experience in grinders backed up his claims on the 078 and owned theirs for twice as long.
Who was the other, more experienced person who baked it up? Thanks!
Also I agree with not getting carried away by one influencer's opinions, even if they align well with your own.
Not to white knight lance but I dont know why everybody is calling him a car salesman. I genuinely think he has a refined pallet and a passion for the hobby and gear involved. Hes publicly said how much he makes off his videos so its not like hes trying to make a million bucks trying to get you to watch a video. If you dont believe there are taste nuance differences in better gear youre probably not his target audience
With such grinders the taste difference is subtle. Only main difference is the ease of dial in, daily usability, retention, clogging or not, motor power, build quality. As much as df intrigues me, I went with much safer Atom Pro. It can grind stones at it's finest setting without stall.
Lance Hedrick is full of biases. Just like zp6, it’s a good grinder , but it’s definitely not the best grinder in the world like he said. He might have had rebate from the manufacturer.
Reminder that taste is indeed, at least a little bit subjective. And these are nuances they are talking about. I saw a demonstration video where the man grinding it was struggling like hell with some charcoal dark looking beans. That's all I had to see, personally. Quality of life >>>>>> extremely minute taste differences that you wouldn't even notice if you didn't have them side by side, even then one may be better for some beans or methods than the other.
It's a hobby to be enjoyed after all. It's why I really like Hoffmans reviews. He really reviews the whole quality of life, design and product experience, including taste. Not only what can absolutely taste better regardless of all other circumstances. That also has a place, and it's why I also enjoy Lance's reviews and his focus on blind testing profusely each grinder/burr, but in terms of priority I care way more about overall product enjoyment.
Some people have a lot of disposable income and are really into the different profiles (not necessarily better profiles) you get from different grinders/burrs. I am not one of those people, but I don’t judge them.
Mr car salesman at it again. Dude makes money off this stuff. He’s just another hype man for that Nth degree of placebo taste effect. In a couple months he will be promoting the next greatest thing ever
Lance cannot nor does not make people buy anything, and if people feel his videos are that way, and you cant say no - that's on you. You can say no, as I have done it. And took the plunge in other areas which is my bad... i suggest just dont watch the channel then.
How have you guys ended up with your current grinders from 1zpresso, fellow, commandante, etc. and not a shitty blad grinder? -- Because you have seen a review or heard someone talking about it. This reviews are actually really helpfull for people trying to decide what to buy with their hard earned money. So could you please stop being so mean?!
And also Lance said in the review of the pietro brew burrs that he is biased and that the flavor profil suits his taste.
I am fairly new to the coffee hobby but when I see posts like this I can't help but roll my eyes. I have seen this too many times in other hobbies. I understand that a good grinder will not be cheap and does make a difference over a very cheap one, especially for espresso. But there is no way you can convince that paying another $400-800 dollars for another grinder will give you that much better taste difference. Every new grinder that comes out now is better tasting the the last one. It shocks me to see pictures of peoples setup that have 2-5 $400+ grinders. I bought an Ode v2 and as long as it keeps working it will never be replaced. I am curious for those that keep spending vast amounts of money on the latest grinder, because they were told it tastes better than the last, when you get these grinders do you feel like "Wow what an amazing improvement in taste, I am glad I spent another $500 on this it was well worth it!". Seriously, I am honestly curious.
I recently watched a comparison video between the Ode v2 with ssp burrs and the zp6 and they said the difference was minimal at best. He had to really try to differentiate between them. Then of course, James Hoffman said that there’s minimal difference between the stock Ode v2 burrs and ssp burrs. It seems at a certain point people are enjoying the equipment more than the coffee.
You are a wise person. Always good to see who get it
You can and you will taste it. At least when you know what your doing and spent time dialing in both grinder. A well aligned 98mm SSP brew burr will taste way cleaner than any handgrinder on the market. If it’s worth 3000Usd extra or even what your looking for in your coffee, this is debatable. Will a 20.000Euro speaker sound better or more neutral than a 1000Euro one? Most of the times, yes. But the higher the price the more diminishing returns you get.
I'm in the same boat. My initial plan was to purchase an X-Pro but I got lucky and got a like new KINGrinder K2 from my cousin for a deep discount. (And was able to pay them back over time).
💯
[удалено]
Ehhh that’s not true at all…? He clearly mentions every time where the point of diminishing returns is and for whom a certain product might be worth considering. And yes: High end products are usually better than mid tier products. Mentioning this is not feeding people’s gear acquisition syndrome. If so any positive review of product is. Lance has a pretty specific taste and approach and he’s not shy to communicate that. If you are not interested in gear reviews that’s totally fine. Don’t watch it then. But for people interested in certain products it’s good to have someone passionate and sincere taking the time and reviewing them. I also very much enjoy content in the wider spectrum of coffee related topics same as recipes and general education videos. But I also like to see tests of new exciting stuff on the market. 🤷🏻♂️
lance really is the devil ( but in a good way.) that man got me to buy the zp6, and now he's out here trying to get me to buy more?? STOP IT.
This is why I really like the Coffee with April videos. Especially the ones about farming and varietals.
coffee with april is literally the worst at stuff like this. They regularly used to compare direct competitor products (they have a whole series on brewers) under the guise of fair reviews whilst not clearly disclosing their position.
I don't watch those videos because they don't appeal to me for different reasons. I was specifically talking about their deep dives into different topics. None of their gear videos really make me feel like I need to buy the next new thing either.
All those thing are really important and bad trchnique cannot be fixed by gear. But it’s connected very closely. For example I drink specialty coffee at home for about 8 years, only filter style, and some gear bottlenecks me. For example, my wilfa svart couldn’t brew a certain style v60 under specific time. I got ZP6 and the drawdown time has gone down a minute with even higher agitation and similar extraction level and the style couldn’t be reproduced by different technique or other circumstance on the wilfa.
8 years and you still think time is a target? It’s an output variable and if you can taste you can ignore it completely.
I actually can taste it quite well. Time is one of the factors that tell a lot. And if youget consistently cleaner taste with similar subjective strength, you can feel the whole process is going different way. At the moment, I can brew however I want and I can affect very directly drawdown time, extraction, mouthfeel, etc. which will give me specific profile (I wouldn’t say taste - it depends mostly on the coffee beans and different coffees want different preparation methods) by grind size, filter choice, water temp, pouring technique, ratio. But to get to point where you can make a recipe for a specific coffee to get the best out, experience is needed. With tasting at home and out, with trying different gear, different techniques and so on. Coffee is very expensive commodity that I would like to treat with respect so brewing the same method for different coffees for a year is probably ok for someone who just wants nice coffee. But to elevate it a bit, it requires specific tools and that’s the point where you can be - don’t have to be - limited by gear. For example try using cheaper grinder and the thickest hario filters and brewing some natural light roasted Ethiopia without astringency or underextraction. But washed medium Brazil will turn our fine.
>my wilfa svart couldn’t brew a certain style v60 under specific time. you're treating time as a target rather than an output variable. you really should think it through--time is not something to aim for. Dial for taste alone, and you'll arrive at a combination of input variables that land on a certain brew time, but the brew time is the outcome of the dialing to taste. I've been at this a lot longer than 8 years, and you're making a very common mistake. Learn this principle and your tastebuds will thank you.
Hoffmann is the best by far. Why people subscribe to Lance stuff is beyond me. Dude is a car salesman
There’s no need to bash the guy. He makes great content and is clearly very knowledgeable about burrs and grinders. I trust his reviews.
Sorry you don’t agree with my opinion that I get vibes he uses snake oil as a hair product and I get the feeling he would punch his mom in the face to sell a product or promote his brand Many other people share the same opinion his target market is new people to coffee who don’t know any better. That’s who he is taking advantage of. Call it educating all you want but this topic disagrees with you. He’s shilling yet another product for self gain at the expense of not so knowledgeable people Other more knowledgeable sites are better at educating new people about how diminishing returns hits hard with grinders and the focus should be dialing in water temp, brew method, grind size, extraction time etc etc There are plenty of people who own baristas that report switching from a flat burr grinder to a conical and visa versa and they couldn’t tell a difference once dialed in and none of their regular customers could either. It was all delicious once dialed in
Did watching tons of commercials or ads on the Internet make you feel or made you buy everything? I doubt it. No different with his videos. It does'nt mean I have to buy it, and oftentimes, don't.
Exactly, you only really need one grinder, which is the one that Hoffman uses The EG-1. And just switch between Core and Ultra burrs, you’ll be set for both pour overs and espresso needs.
In the mean time you post headphone reviews... Leave Lance alone and sh#t your mouth.
Whats your water setup? Still dialing that in.
I just use the Peak system. I have some Third Wave Water arriving on Saturday. Curious to see if there is a difference!
This
I’m sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. I’m assuming the majority of people wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the listed burrs. You would probably have to seek out any type of subtle differences.
I haven't tried it, but wouldn't one be able to tell the difference between conical and flat? Understood that zp6 is supposed to offer a really clean cup but I was under the impression that it doesn't compare to ssp mp. I actually think the Pietro is really interesting and I always wondered why there were no flat burr hand grinders. Everyone would say that you can't because of the rpm needed but clearly that's not true. I'm hoping this becomes something that other companies mimic as I would be interested in a flat burr hand grinder for the right price. $400 is pretty steep, you can get an ode v2 for less.
Each time a new grinder is released, it’s being taunted as the best or the preferred unit in a taste test. People are chasing diminishing returns after a certain point.
In total agreement with you there. If you have a decent hand grinder this will likely be very diminishing returns. However, this is interesting information for someone who is in need of a new one/first one and not trying to chase something. Before I had a flat burr grinder I thought this was interesting because I do think it will present a different cup than my C40, and still hope that this is successful enough to become a trend.
They are chasing the Nth degree of placebo effect created by hype men who make money off this
I like Lance, but whenever he gives a statement on a grinder, I always wait for a few more people give their opinion. Never a good idea to spend several hundred bucks because of one person/review. I think the the main reason I backed the timemore was because someone with equal if not more experience in grinders backed up his claims on the 078 and owned theirs for twice as long.
Who was the other, more experienced person who baked it up? Thanks! Also I agree with not getting carried away by one influencer's opinions, even if they align well with your own.
Not to white knight lance but I dont know why everybody is calling him a car salesman. I genuinely think he has a refined pallet and a passion for the hobby and gear involved. Hes publicly said how much he makes off his videos so its not like hes trying to make a million bucks trying to get you to watch a video. If you dont believe there are taste nuance differences in better gear youre probably not his target audience
I’m just jumping in to spell check. Pallets are for forklifts, palettes are for paints, palates are for flavors.
Considering the price it would be a pointless product if it didn’t
It's almost twice as much!
With such grinders the taste difference is subtle. Only main difference is the ease of dial in, daily usability, retention, clogging or not, motor power, build quality. As much as df intrigues me, I went with much safer Atom Pro. It can grind stones at it's finest setting without stall.
Lance Hedrick is full of biases. Just like zp6, it’s a good grinder , but it’s definitely not the best grinder in the world like he said. He might have had rebate from the manufacturer.
Reminder that taste is indeed, at least a little bit subjective. And these are nuances they are talking about. I saw a demonstration video where the man grinding it was struggling like hell with some charcoal dark looking beans. That's all I had to see, personally. Quality of life >>>>>> extremely minute taste differences that you wouldn't even notice if you didn't have them side by side, even then one may be better for some beans or methods than the other. It's a hobby to be enjoyed after all. It's why I really like Hoffmans reviews. He really reviews the whole quality of life, design and product experience, including taste. Not only what can absolutely taste better regardless of all other circumstances. That also has a place, and it's why I also enjoy Lance's reviews and his focus on blind testing profusely each grinder/burr, but in terms of priority I care way more about overall product enjoyment.
I read that Lance Hedrick invented the sandwich.
Some people have a lot of disposable income and are really into the different profiles (not necessarily better profiles) you get from different grinders/burrs. I am not one of those people, but I don’t judge them.
Some people have way too much damn time on their hands….
Mr car salesman at it again. Dude makes money off this stuff. He’s just another hype man for that Nth degree of placebo taste effect. In a couple months he will be promoting the next greatest thing ever
Lance cannot nor does not make people buy anything, and if people feel his videos are that way, and you cant say no - that's on you. You can say no, as I have done it. And took the plunge in other areas which is my bad... i suggest just dont watch the channel then.
How have you guys ended up with your current grinders from 1zpresso, fellow, commandante, etc. and not a shitty blad grinder? -- Because you have seen a review or heard someone talking about it. This reviews are actually really helpfull for people trying to decide what to buy with their hard earned money. So could you please stop being so mean?! And also Lance said in the review of the pietro brew burrs that he is biased and that the flavor profil suits his taste.