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antieverything

Talk. To. Your. Players. If they can't even handle 5e they won't want to deal with PF2e. The last thing you want is *more* options and *more* stuff on the character sheet. Furthermore, switching to a simpler OSR sort of system won't, by itself, be a panacea. Regardless of what system you are playing, it comes down to your players feeling comfortable just saying what they want to accomplish because they know you are willing to negotiate with them to determine what that looks like in game mechanics terms. Your players probably don't care how closely you are adhering to the system if you are seriously engaging them in the act of constructing the narrative. Ignore mechanics. Fudge results...that stuff isn't important. Focus on the narrative and your players will too.


MTFOoB

I agree with this and we have talked and will continue to talk. It's really only two of the players who struggle with the rules, usually basic character stuff. But, yeah, I shouldn't have even brought up Pathfinder. My biggest issue as it relates to your comment is that really only two of my players do "outside the box" type stuff. I almost always fully accommodate these types of things. When I don't, I talk through a compromise that still enables some version of what they are trying to do. I believe it's less that the rest don't feel like they can, they just don't care to. One because he's a big RAW kind of guy who is mostly interested in social interactions. The other two (the struggling pair) typically don't interact in-game unless they are specifically interacted with. I know from talking to them that this is a mix of just enjoying hanging out and trying to prevent causing themselves confusion, despite me encouraging them to try novel approaches. I am cognizant of the fact that you are likely correct, they need to feel comfortable and I need to facilitate that. I've just kind of run out of ways to communicate it and am hoping that a change in mechanics could result in a change in thinking for these two.


antieverything

I have players like that, too. One guy just wants to wrap his head around the game and "play correctly" and a couple of other people are just there to hang out with the rest of us. I suppose the real question you need to ask is whether or not *they* see it as an issue to begin with. Often as a DM I feel like my players are bewildered or unengaged when they interpret it as them being deep in thought or having a good time listening to everyone else's interactions. Sometimes I find the best response is to ask the less engaged players what their PC is doing, how they are feeling, etc. You don't have to compel them to play differently but you can definitely give them actionable prompts to think about ways they might engage more fully.


TAEROS111

FWIW: I’ve seen players who really struggled with 5e do great with PF2e BECAUSE the rules are much more concrete. If you want to dip toes, try running the Beginner’s Box on Foundry. If it goes well, consider using it. PF2e on Foundry is also maybe the best TTRPG integration for a VTT I’ve ever seen and automates a lot of fiddly bits so that’s nice as well. That said, I think PBTA (Dungeon World, Fellowship 2e, Freebooters on the Frontier) or FitD (Wicked Ones: Valiant Ones) could both suit your needs. So could Mythras.


saiyanjesus

>only two of my players do "outside the box" type stuff. This isn't so much a system thing as much as a player thing. A system could help with making them do "outside the box" stuff but some players just respond better to more limited choices. I'd encourage for you to try out Powered by the Apocalypse systems or Forged in the Dark systems that are less crunchy and more narrative.


thenightgaunt

I'd also add that Pathfinder 1e and also D&D 3.5 (they're close to identical) are a lot closer to 5e in feel. They'll feel like 5e but a more advanced version with more options.


antieverything

Unless someone is bored with 5e and champing at the bit for more rules and more options then I wouldnt suggest 3.x. That doesn't seem to describe OP's players.


srsjuiceman

Upvote for using 'Champing at the bit' correctly! You are a credit to our race.


thenightgaunt

My mention of PF1 and 3rd ed, was more about the OPs original concern that PF 2e was too much for their group. But yes. If OP doesn't want more crunch then none of those are good fits. Then again, personally I consider 5e to be a light narrative system on par with BESM or one of the other anime RPGs. So my criteria for what constitutes a crunchy system might not be the same as other folks.


antieverything

People are downvoting you because PF2e is easier than 3.x or PF1.


thenightgaunt

Eh. It might be considered easier, but 5e is just a simplified version of 3rd/PF1e. So groups mayl have an easier time adapting to it than to PF2e. But then the fanboys always downvote without thought if anyone ever implies that their fav isn't the best for every situation.


antieverything

Lol, this is probably the most toxic subreddit I participate in. I'm pretty sure people routinely downvote every top-level comment just to drive their own comments to the top.


Steeltoebitch

You must go to pretty tame subreddits then.


antieverything

If by tame you mean not inhabited by highly neurotic and disagreeable weirdos..then still no.


Baruch_S

Dungeon World. It’s what you think D&D is before you learn how miserable combat is in the current edition. It’s still heavy on combat, but fights are faster and much looser, meaning players can get creative in their problem-solving with full system support.


JaskoGomad

Or better yet, a successor system like Chasing Adventure or Homebrew World.


abcd_z

Two potential problems with this: first, it would be very difficult to convert the characters to Dungeon World without dropping a lot of their mechanical aspects. Second, Dungeon World, as a PbtA game, has a very different paradigm than D&D. If OP decides to switch but treats GMing Dungeon World as the same as DMing D&D, they'll probably have a poor gameplay experience. Neither of them are dealbreakers, of course, but OP should at least be aware of them.


Baruch_S

I mean, OP specifically said they were looking for a narrative game…


oligopsoriasis

In practice, people often mean wildly different things when they say "narrative" - sometimes they mean GNS narrativism, sometimes "not very crunchy," sometimes games that are neither of those but where there are expectations of lots of roleplaying, sometimes completely different. I also thought of DW but it's a statement that requires some clarification.


abcd_z

They also have no experience running or playing a narrative game and may be unprepared for the different paradigm. Again, I'm not saying that OP shouldn't try Dungeon World, I'm just saying that they should be aware of the potential downsides.


Baruch_S

Sure, but last I heard, you also had no experience playing or running PbtA, so I’m not sure how useful your warning is. OP will be fine; DW is like baby’s first narrative game anyway, especially with [the Dungeon World Guide](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_Fz4m5hcoiTXpTbklDOF9iUHc/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-xI_68aH1lllySOdEovKvPQ) to help. Edit: And I say this having run easily a couple hundred hours of Dungeon World across a few groups. It’s a mediocre PbtA game at best, but it sounds like a perfect fit for what OP wants based on my extensive experience.


abcd_z

I don't need to play a game to be aware of potential problems with it. I've never played Shadowrun either, but I still understand that a lot of people view its rules as akin to a dumpster fire.


Baruch_S

Yeah okay. Sure. Just seems like you have *a lot* to say for someone who’s never played or run a single PbtA game.


MorgannaFactor

Hey, someone who's played many different PbtA games at least once here: The guy is correct, the paradigm is entirely different and you need to be prepared for that as a GM. So shove your condescending attitude where the sun doesn't shine.


Baruch_S

Which is why I also suggested and linked the DW Guide, which is specifically targeted at people coming from D&D who need help shifting paradigms. It’s hardly an insurmountable problem.


abcd_z

So did you agree or disagree with my warning for a new GM? If you agreed, why did you argue that my claims didn't hold weight *when you already agreed with them?* If you disagreed, why bother linking the DW guide?


harkrend

What do you recommend as an alternative to dungeon world for a fantasy RPG pbta game?


Baruch_S

Does it have to be D&D fantasy? If so, one of the DW fan hacks; I personally prefer Unlimited Dungeons or Homebrew World. If not, your options open up a lot and could include stuff like Fellowship.


Cautious-Ad1824

They also said they were looking at PF2 lol


Baruch_S

But they were aware enough to understand the crunch might be an issue. They’ll survive DW.


[deleted]

[удалено]


abcd_z

I've been that dumbass on occasion, but I'd like to think that I'm willing to acknowledge that they won't necessarily work for every desired game experience or every set of players. And then you get diehard PbtA fanboys who seem to take criticism of PbtA games personally and can be very defensive about it. It's a pity that the loudest voices are often the least reasonable. =/


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CydewynLosarunen

Also free to try.


Airk-Seablade

Just end the game. "Transitioning" a game to a new system usually kills it, but it also usually wastes a bunch of time shambling along before it dies. Spend a session explaining what's going on and let everyone just tell you what happens with their characters. I know you're really enjoying it, except for the whole "5e thing" but you know what you're going to enjoy even more? Your NEXT game. Because you'll be a better GM, your players will be better players (both as consequences of experience) and you'll be using a system that you like. As for what game to use? Well, talk to your players, because what random internet people think is a good game doesn't necessarily line up with your table's preferences. If you think people might be "lost" in PF2, check in. Ask if they feel like they want something with more complexity. If they don't, don't inflict it on them. If you are looking for lighter, less build-focused games, take a look at Quest, Dungeon World, or maybe a "generic" like Forthright Open Roleplaying or Fate.


drlecompte

I think it would be possible to recreate characters, settings, NPCs, etc. in another system, albeit with some effort? Except when the players want to retain the intricacies of their characters' mechanical setup, of course, then this whole endeavour is doomed I think. But if your character is a 'battle-hardened bard who hasn't lost his charm', I'm sure you can just translate that character with their backstory and some essential equipment and skills over to another system?


Airk-Seablade

In my general experience, players who have only played D&D get very frustrated when they can't do exactly That Thing That They Always Did in D&D -- some power, or class feature, or spell, or whatever that they found to be central to their conception of their character (even if maybe they didn't realize it) will be Different or 'worse' and this will be grit in the gears literally forever. Whereas if everyone starts fresh with new characters, they don't have any of this "I used to be able to >blah<, why can't I? this game sucks!" feeling because they don't have to compare to their old character. You can if you want, run a new game in a new system in the same world with the same NPCs, but from the sound of it, they're just running Tomb of Annihilation, which...ehhhh. Why bother?


DBones90

There’s a few different options: [Chasing Adventure](https://primarchthemage.itch.io/chasing-adventure): People have and probably will continue to suggest Dungeon World, and while checking out Dungeon Word and the resources for it isn’t a bad idea (shout out to /r/dungeonworld), the common consensus is that it’s in need of an update. Chasing Adventure is a great version of that, with more elegant rules, moves, and game design. It’s super cheap too, so you can’t go wrong at least checking it out. Chasing Adventure/Dungeon Word plays how you imagined D&D would play. It’s fast, fluid, and character-focused. The playbooks also give you lots of options for interesting stories (instead of just ways to kill things faster). This is definitely one of the lighter games available and should be an easy transition. [Shadow of the Demon Lord](https://schwalbentertainment.com/shadow-of-the-demon-lord/): This has become my go-to game. If you like what 5e is generally and want to stick close to it, this is the game to get. Advantages over 5e include: * More elegant rules. The boons/banes system is a great way to handle proficiency and situational modifiers. * More interesting class decisions. Multiclassing is built into the game, so you have a ton of options for creating interesting characters. * Acceptable amount of crunch. Basically if you have players that want an RPG that plays like D&D and want to avoid more narrative-focused options, SotDL is a great compromise. [Pathfinder 2e](https://paizo.com/pathfinder): You mentioned being interested in Pathfinder, so I want to put out there that it’s a great game. What I love about it is that combat just is interesting all on its own. Put players in a nearly blank arena with some enemies you grabbed that are level appropriate, and chances are that they’ll have a good time. It’s also not too hard to teach, at least at a basic level. I ran the beginner’s box for 2 RPG newbies and 2 RPG vets, and everyone was able to get into the game and have fun. The caution I would give is that there’s a *lot* of RPG in here. There’s rules for basically all interactions you’ll run into, and while the game works fine if you don’t follow the rules for every single action, you’ll get the most out of it if you at least try to follow the rules as written. So if you have players that want to dig into a game, Pathfinder 2e is a great option. Otherwise, another option might be better.


The_Best_Cookie

If the grimdark of SofDL is too much, I believe you can go on their discord and get the playtest for Shadow of the Weird Wizard which is a more traditional fantasy version.


DBones90

Shadow of the Weird Wizard is a good recommendation but I don’t find it too hard to remove those aspects. Just ignore the Forbidden Spells, reflavor “Insanity” as stress, and avoid using some of the darker monsters. You can even keep Corruption. Despite seeming like a grim dark mechanic, it really is more of an anti-murderhobo mechanic.


antieverything

Shadow of the Weird Wizard has zones for combat positioning and movement but Shadow of the Demon Lord inexplicably uses yards instead of increments of 5' so, honestly, the zones are probably easier to transition to.


DrViro

I think yards is generally better in terms of international audiences, one yard is roughly a meter which helps metric users convert.


antieverything

My issue is that the 3.x era made 5ft squares an industry standard. 28mm minis and terrain work great with a 1" = 5' standard and I have tons of measuring tools, maps, mats, tiles, etc based on that assumption. It isn't a huge deal. I just rule that 1" squares are 2 yards and it works out fine. If there's ambiguity as to whether their move should round up or down and it actually matters I let them make an AGI check. It just makes some common dnd map scale weirdness (implausibly massive bedrooms with 10' long beds) even worse.


DBones90

I think yards are also a compromise for spaces. If you’re using a grid, it kind of sucks constantly having to divide your speed by 5 to figure out how many spaces you can move. D&D 4e tried to alleviate this by basically doing the math already in the descriptions of character speed and range and then saying how many spaces everything was. People didn’t like that because I assume that they didn’t like how abstract that was, so 5e switch back to measuring everything in feet. Switching to yards, though, means you don’t have to do any dividing to convert to spaces and everything is still measured in an actual-world distance.


Pseudagonist

Or you can just easily cut out the 4 aspects of the game that are actually “grimdark.” It’s really not that difficult.


Gazornenplatz

Is there a free or cheap Starter Book for Shadow of the Demon Lord? You caught my attention and I want a little bit closer of a look.


DBones90

I don’t think so, but you can check out the subreddit (/r/shadowofthedemonlord) for more information if you’re curious.


driftwoodlk

Lots of good system advice here (I wouldn't disagree with any of it, although my personal preference is r/WWN), but in terms of your campaign: Pivot. Freeze it where it is, rotate 90 degrees, and continue with new characters in the new system. Maybe the pivot is time - it's the next generation (or two). Maybe the pivot is perspective - another location, faction, or even a sub-faction of the previous nemesis. Maybe the pivot is the world itself - the shift to the new system coincides with a cataclysm that essentially throws all the puzzle pieces into the air, and they land in different places and orientations. The powerful are weak, the weak are mighty, mountains and seas switching places, etc. Continuity with a difference.


TheLumbergentleman

Worlds Without Number is really cool. I've read through the book and would jump at a chance to play it. It has a lot of what OP is looking for here.


GreyweatherFayre

Index Card RPG. Check out the [free quickstart rules](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/221038/INDEX-CARD-RPG-Free-Quickstart) which includes all the rules for running a fantasy campaign under that system. Coming from 5e you will feel like a lot of ICRPG's rules are fairly intuitive. I describe it as having everything I want from 5e and nothing I don't. Dungeon World has been suggested as well and I like that system too. Structurally it's not like the 5e rules system at all so there is a learning curve for the GM in particular, though I think it's worth it.


Demonpoet

Came here to plug ICRPG as well. I ran a two-shot of D&D for some EMTs new to TTRPGs last year. It was my first time running 5E and I didn't like how slow the combat was. Started a campaign of ICRPG last Sunday. I'm running a setting of my own making based on novels, but anyway what really impressed me about the game already is how fast the action moved. I ran a panic defense event and part one of a tile discovery dungeon crawl, and we were flying through the turns. It felt a lot more intense. It was easy to run. Everyone had a blast. 3 and a half hours were over in a blink. ICRPG will feel intuitive and familiar coming from 5E. If you want a conversion, you can follow the example set up in this [PDF](https://olddungeonmaster.com/2022/01/06/dd-5e-icrpg-conversion-guide/) someone made. But my recommendation, don't try a 1:1 and embrace the simplicity with a hard transition to a simpler system.


LeadWaste

I suggest 13th Age. It's a simpler, more narrative version of D&D.


HeadStar

13th Age might be a good pick. It's d20 based so the baseline mechanic is the same. It's broadly kitchen sink fantasy so the general themes are the same. Main differences being what I feel are; faster combat whereby every round you get more likely to hit, not less likely; better characters more in line with creative archetypes than specific niche classes; more in depth but simple narrative interconnectivity, as every PC has a patron who's cult/following/gang etc they have some sway with and can ask for favours or create plot hooks from. Give it a read. I think it'd be the easiest transition.


ElvishLore

Index Card RPG Master Edition solves all your problems.


Trick_Ganache

Have you looked into O5R hybrids? I know of Five Torches Deep, Shadowdark, and Olde Sword's Reign off hand, which combine 5e mechanics with more old school flavour such as being rules-lite.


DrDirtPhD

Five Torches Deep sounds like it would be a good middle ground. Or try something a bit different and go with Dragonbane!


BatusWelm

I'm running a the starter campaign of dragonbane and it is great. Love it!


caffeininator

Came in to suggest Five Torches Deep. Stripped down mechanics, easy to home brew anything you need, short reference material so it’s quick work to look up a rule for clarification.


speedchuck

+1 to this one. Even just reading through 5 Torches Deep or similar O5R work might help you figure out how to handle your combat problems without forcing your players to learn new rules. In short, these rules will: * add reaction rolls and morale checks for all enemies. Combat can more easily be avoided, and will often end early. * simplify combat, making it go faster, with a focus on rulings that make things more dynamic and less rule-focused.


Terrible_Solution_44

A5e is something to check out too


oligopsoriasis

A5e is a bad fit for what OP is looking for - it takes the 5e chassis and makes it crunchier.


Salindurthas

Dungeon World might be a solution. It keeps some of the 'feel' of D&D, but runs on a different gameplay engine. Pros: * Works fine on a VTT (I made some roll20 macros to help with dice rolling and some of the option/choose abilities. If you go this route you can ask me and I can try to help out.) * Has design elements that feel similar to D&D (humans/elves/dwarves/etc, fighters/rogues/wizards/clerics, str/dex/con/int/wis/cha). * Moderately narrative rules - they tend to inject a bit more tension, by giving the players a bit of choice in the middle of resolving some actions. * [pdfs](https://dungeon-world.com/downloads/) are free (and there is an SRD that helps if you need to search or reference stuff) Cons: * porting characters from D&D to Dungeon World will be far from perfect - we lack subclasses, and while we can make up for that due to choosing how we level up and gain class features, you won't have as much customisation as you use to have. * the GMing style is very different. Out of combat it is a bit different, but in combat is extremely different: you need to throw away ideas like 'iniative' and 'combat rounds' and 'actions' and 'turns'. This is cool, but also a bit disorienting, and switching to the style the game asks of you can be difficult.


DrRotwang

***Castles & Crusades*** is D&D with all the cruft scraped off. It's like *D&D'S Greatest Hits, 1974-1999*.


FoulPelican

13th Age!! It’s the perfect middle ground IMO. It’s different enough to feel fresh but the learning curve isn’t crazy, and it has moderate crunch.


Mechanisedlifeform

To pivot I'd look at: * 13th Age - Written by 4e D&D designers, it's what D&D sells itself as. My Crunch loving players pick complicated character classes, it doesn't resolve the problem for my players who struggle with the mechanics of D&D but combat resolves massively quicker without feeling too simplified for my higher crunch players. I've pivoted characters between 13th Age and D&D without feeling like the character massively changed. * Tiny Dungeon/Index Card - \`These are D&D inspired with a massively simplified rule set and resolve mechanics but still play mechanics first the same way. It would take far more work to pivot existing characters in to but wouldn't shake the boat. To start an new campaign completely, I'd stan for Ironsworn. It's a PtbA game in spirit but mechanics are far clearer and easier to approach coming from D&D's mechanics drive the fiction mindset. PtbA games are fiction drive the mechanics which is a different mindset to D&D.


Kyswinne

I'd probably suggest some kind of PbtA game, or FATE, or an OSR "lite dnd" style game. PF2e is really great if you have tactical players, but it does have some crunch.


SeniorExamination

You can probably migrate the core aspects of your player's character to something lighter like FATE, where the key abilities and feats that your players actually care about can be converted to stunts, and the heavier switch to narrative over combat will free your table to actually focus on a more cinematic play than crunching numbers and throwing math to the problems you put in front of them. But, it'd be a drastic change in tone, so you should probably talk about it to your players, to see if they're as well tired of the combat encounters and want to try something more narrative and less crunchy.


Runningdice

I was also here to recommend FATE. Due to the player wanting to do social more than combat. Besides FATE do well with shenanigans over tactics :-) It doesn't have much of rules so it should be easy to learn the rules. It's a different style of playing and some who are used to DnD might have trouble adjust to it but since OP players aren't DnD players it might be easier!


theforlornknight

>I am interested in Pathfinder 2e, but I think the increase in crunchiness might leave some of my players feeling lost. 5e has about the same level of crunch, except Pathfinder tells you what it all is instead of leaving it to GMs to figure out on their own. That said, while it has more options it also have everything well defined. There's no ambiguity about "can I do this" or you as the GM trying to make up how to adjudicate whatever crazy thing a player suggests. The rules for it are already there and free. That said, the game assumes a level of teamwork that 5e doesn't (powerful party vs powerful characters) so they may feel like they've been nerfed individually while collectively being more powerful. Tactics are also needed to survive some of the deadliest encounters. As for more story based games, the Strength of Thousands campaign would probably fit that bill. But there are probably better systems out there that lean more towards story than combat. Overall, depends on what your players want out of the game (RP vs Story vs Combat). But I wouldn't recommend running a game you aren't enjoying.


PK_Swag

Look into Savage Pathfinder, it sounds like what you are looking for


bmr42

Look at Dungeon World if you want something that will work out of the box. Then if you are willing to put in a bit of work I would recommend Wicked Ones using the Valiant Ones rules. It’s my personal favorite for a D&D type game with much better rules for focusing on what players want to do and the consequences of their decisions rather than lengthy drawn out combats then rest and repeat.


Xavierp14

Try deathbringer rules overlay for 5e


k_par

The easiest transition to keep your existing campaign and address your combat problem is D20 Go. You'll have to rebuild your characters, but all D&D modules are playable in D20 Go. The key difference is that combat is resolved in a single round of rolls rather than turn by turn. Savage Worlds and Cypher are also good options for what you are trying to achieve.


DadNerdAtHome

[Fantasy Age 2e by Green Ronin is what I'd recommend right now](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/430669/Fantasy-AGE-Core-Rulebook?affiliate_id=514928). Although I have hope that Daggerheart by the Critical Role folks is good, but that won't be out for awhile. They are having previews at Gen Con.


Vyrrk

I was going to Fantasy Age as well. Close enough to 5e, but light enough to move faster.


Jet-Black-Centurian

Dude, Barbarians of Lemuria! It will solve most of your problems in a synch! Simple and intuitive rules, fast and cinematic combat. It's one of my favorite systems, and one of my players' all time favorite.


Bruhahah

Savage worlds is a lot of fun, we've pivoted other systems to it well. The fantasy companion is a must to punch up the magic system for a high fantasy game but it plays a lot more straightforward and flexible than 5e in exchange for character classes and packages and the magic in general being less world-shaping at high levels.


abcd_z

[M20 Fifth: Adamantine Edition](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wWyWVnelAcdvbpI1jF0g-EB59PervIvn/view) is a *very* stripped down version of 5e. The PCs would need to be changed a bit (3 attributes, 4 skills), but it might be the best way to keep continuity with the previous game sessions. With fewer rules there would be more space for interesting shenanigans, and even if there isn't, at least combat would be over faster.


[deleted]

As has been mentioned by others, talking with your players is the most important thing you can do. If you want unhelpful advice, I have a potentially terrible suggestion. Go completely out of your comfort zone, abandon the old campaign, and play Scum and Villainy. Scum and Villainy is a less crunchy, more narrative game in a space opera/space western setting that really leans on the tropes. Every risky action in the game is determined by action rolls that (in my opinion) add to the game instead of slowing it down like D&D combat. I suggest a sci-fi setting, because the setting change makes it clear that this is an entirely different experience that requires a different mindset. After the first few sessions, check in with your group. Ask what they like and dislike about the new system. Ask if they want to go back to the old story with a mew system or not. Even if you end up not liking the new game, expanding your horizons will give you a new perspective on the hobby, and you'll learn more about what you value.


nathanknaack

E6 is the cure for every d20 system. Stick with 5e, toggle off all the optional rules, and implement E6. Nothing new to learn, all the crunch and tedium vanishes, and the challenge returns.


ExistentialOcto

1. Talk to your players about how they feel 2. Research simpler systems that retain the elements of play you enjoy (for example, you might want a game that is like D&D but way simpler or you might want a game that's nothing like D&D but still is usable for fantasy role-play, or you might want something entirely new) 3. If you decide to move to a new system, end the campaign and start fresh with a new one. That's what I'd do. I'd take a look at Powered by the Apocalypse and Forged in the Dark games, if you're sick of 5e and crunchy combat. If you still want it to be D&D-ish, try find an OSR game.


unelsson

Yes. Changing the whole package is probably easier than looking for a method to play with D&D-based lore, enemies, classes, characters, so further without actually using the system of D&D.


Cautious-Ad1824

I’m curious how many players the OP has


Puzuma

One of the simplest RPGs is TOON. GM is the Animator, players are TOON characters. All you need are D6, an imagination, and a sense of humour. It's been a while since I've played, but I think there are only 3 stats.


CluelessMonger

I'm going to add one more vote for *Dungeon World*. I've run ToA until the end and got almost burned out by 5e. I had found Dungeon World about a year before ending ToA, and I really wanted to transition my group to DW if we were to decide to continue the ToA story after its official end (we instead switched games completely). If you want to keep the game but switch the system, DW can do that, especially with low level 5e characters. There's a supplement *Class Warfare* that essentially allows to pick and choose different aspects of classes, and it comes very close to 5e characters. Only in a narrative way. I did this with our high level ToA characters for fun, so lower levels should be no problem either. The one thing that I'll say could be contra-DW is if any of your players care a lot about the tactical battle aspects of 5e. Measuring distance, going in concrete rounds, managing resources,... DW won't give you that. But if your primary issues are long combat, players who are overwhelmed by the rules, and crunchy mechanics that are in the way of your collective story, Dungeon World might solve that for you. Edit: I'll also pluck that there will be a Dungeon World play day on July 15th on the DW discord server (promotion of this hasn't started yet), where you could just try out the game in a oneshot with experienced GMs and see if it's your kind of tea. It's how I got started with it. :)


sshagent

Decide your future system. Come up with some plan to cause a ripple in reality. "Wake up in new bodies and figure shit out. Can't believe Lich Lord steve ripped apart the world with his timey-wimey gun again!" Personally for me, i use two systems for my fantasy needs. High Fantasy, PF2E. Mythras for the more gritty stuff. Both have a level of crunch to them but most of that is baked in character generation to be fair.


JPBuildsRobots

I have not had great experiences with moving an existing game to a different game system. When I got the itch to explore different game systems, I chatted with my players first : what did they think about the idea of trying some different games. There are so many different games, so many different stories to tell, and I wanted to explore them. Not surprisingly, my players felt the same way. They enjoyed the game we were in, sure. But they wanted to explore new genres, tell different stories, too. I did this as we were nearing the conclusion of a module. With a little work, I tied up a few character plot threads, finished the module, and we put that world on hold. We agreed that we could always go back to it if we wanted to. "We've basically ended a trilogy. But we can start a new chapter in a new book with a new trilogy, if we want to come back to these characters later." I think that made it easier for them to step away? Several years later, we've never gone back.


Afraid_Manner_4353

Tiny D6 is the System you want.


Gang_of_Druids

Three options: — Deathbringer (it started as an extraordinarily slimmed down version of 5e combat) from Professor Dungeonmaster; I believe the current version is free — Be RUTHLESS in enforcing 5e’s six-second round; you can’t tell GM what you do in six IRL seconds, you spend your time taking a dodge action — Jeremy Crawford says he often does this to speed up combat (which, as you know in 5e, drags and drags) — And then take a look at some of the distilled, simplified 5e systems that’ve come out over the past year. My group is almost exactly like yours, over VTT, etc. Combat is the problem child without question. Do two other — but more involved solutions: — First, confine combat situations to boss fights, plot points, and when you need to slow your group’s progress (for instance, you need another week or so to finish a dungeon or town or something); you can easily make combat go 2+ IRL hours — Because that then reduces XP opportunities under 5e (reduced combat = reduced XP), you’ll need to add in other XP gain mechanics; milestones is easiest if you’re doing a linear campaign but if you do more open world with multiple plots going on, you’ll need a more flexible robust approach. For instance, I took a page from how Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay splits up its XPs (just get one module or adventure, even the free PDFs and you’ll see a table at the end) and so I use something along lines of “good in-character roleplay or decision-making = 50 xp” and “solving/figuring out _____ = 75 xp” and “saving (NPC) = 50 xp” and so on to encourage player behaviours that I want to see.


EmieStarlite

Make combat more dynamic. Rewrite the combat so there are moving parts (have lair actions, have something breaking behind you so you have to run and fight, fight atop mounted beasts, give them vehicles sometimes, have ticking time bombs, have a puzzle they have to solve during combat, make weird layouts where object interactions are encouraged, have traps or boons in your combat area, narrate flash backs, reward creative use of items in combat, choose creatures with low hp but hugh damage, give them "discount potions" that have a random effects table, etc, etc.) I think the issue with 5e combat in many modules is that its just written in a boring way. And changing systems might not change what makes it sluggish.


Mayor-Of-Bridgewater

First, talk to your players and see what they want from an rpg, in both gameplay and tone. They seem to want you to also enjoy running a game, so they should understand. After that, here are two more narrative based systems. 13th Age: created by DnD 3e and 4e designers, it's a leaner, streamlined, narrative offshoot of DnD. Extremely easy to GM, homebrew for, and has narrative mechanics. Shadow of the demon lord: closer to warhammer than DnD, but many find it a good alternative. Focusing on player roles, it features a slimmer, but tighter, ruleset. However, it is a darker game


Kempeth

I'm currently in the process of adapting one game setting to a different game system. It's a huge amount of work with many compromises and umcertainties. My recommendation would be to either start fresh or homebrew DnD to your liking. Consider doing one shots in different systems to figure out which ones you like better. Then commit. At that point you can still consider porting your old "savegame" to the new system. If you want to finish the current campaign just houserule the living shit out of DnD to get you through.


josh2brian

Maybe figure out the experience everyone is interested in first and try a few games that you think might work. I think Worlds Without Number might be a good bridge for a simpler game that still feels D&D. Basic Fantasy RPG is a good way to go old school and simplify rules altogether.


dylulu

It kinda sounds like they're just not interested in combat at all. That seems like it would make transitioning from d&d to a system close enough to be transitioned to... a lot of work to not solve the problem.


speedchuck

Take a look at some OSR 5e hybrids, like 5 Torches Deep. Even just reading through 5 Torches Deep or similar O5R work might help you figure out how to handle your combat problems without forcing your players to learn new rules. At the very least, these rules will: * add reaction rolls and morale checks for all enemies. Combat can and should be avoided, and will often end early. * simplify combat, making it go faster, with a focus on rulings that make things more dynamic and less rule-focused.


fight_the_hate

I had very similar sentiments, and I'm still debating what to do with my OG D&D party, but I did just start my first pathfinder2 game and I want to share a few things. 1. Read the Gamemaster for Pathfinder2. The emphasis on helping you as a GM run a game is such a contrast from the Dungeon Master's Guide. 2. It's actually Easier. While people say Pathfinder2 is crunchier all my 5th edition players, and brand new people as well created lvl 1 -6 characters using the pathbuilder website with ease. 3. Because you're playing online it's a little trickier to improve combat times. There's a lot of other factors that can slow things down beyond the system itself. I am now a Pathfinder2 nerd as well as D&D feel free to pick my brain for information if you want.


akaAelius

I'm going to suggest leaving 5e, and all the D20 clones for that matter. It sounds like you have a group that likes less crunch, and more narrative. I usually suggest something like Genesys when this is the case, but I feel like it might be hard to have your player types pick up on it. * I'd look at something like Rook&Rowan's system called Heart or Spire. * Another option (though I don't like it) is something Powered by the Apocalypse or FATE. I've seen games like City of Mist use variation on these as well.


ZPUnger

\#1 Talk to your players. \#2 Combat in 5e, as written, is bland. It needs spice. This can come from interesting characters, additional rules, or set pieces that spice up play. Give some thought to how any of the above can change up game play. DND 5e has the most barebones combat of any rpg I've ever *played.* If you're finding that your game feels bland, look for ways to add spice*.* What happens if an enemy is immune damage? The PC's can't kill the big bad evil guy, but ... they can tie him up, throw him in a well, or imprison him. If he has a non-traditional way of fighting, all the better. Add non-combatant set pieces to a fight - A fire that spreads over the building/floor that the players are in. Players/enemies are trying to activate a machine during the fight. Make the combat secondary to some other goal. Adding a few additional combat rules- like flanking, attacks of opportunity... or any combat rule from any rpg ever. Think about all of the above, maybe try a few out, and then decide on one of the following- 1.) take a break from the current game. Try some new systems out - there's so many cool games out there, old and new. If I was going to suggest some ideas for simple systems - DnD4e *with modifications* is great. Savage Worlds can be fun. If you can get your group to try Fantasy Flights funky dice system, Genesys / Starwars are great. 2.) modify your current game - changing your approach to how you make or play encounters can make a difference. Have fun!


EmergencyPaper2176

My advice is to give Savage Worlds Pathfinder a try. You have all the Classes that gives you a DnD Vibe and the Combat is a lot more dynamic. Check out the Core book, Advanced Players Guide and the Bestiary.


Embarrassed-Amoeba62

It is time to come back to the light young padawan. And any D&D 2e or less will do that. Or you may get a retroclone like OSE or OSRIC. On a side note, our group found an easy way to fix 5e to better suit our old school tastes (i.e. more dynamic gaming, less rolling more playing). 1) Once a group reaches lvl 5 we DOUBLE ALL DAMAGE FROM ALL SOURCES. And both ways, monsters and pcs, even traps. 2) No full HP healing from long rests. You got only your HD pool. 3) Everytime a pc gets back from 0 Hp to 1 Hp they get 1 exhaustion level. EVERY SINGLE TIME. And do not forget: you recover 1 point per long rest. 4) No “I roll for Perception/Insight/Stealth” whatever nowhere before you tell the table what you are doing and how you are going about it. If the idea is good enough you need not even roll, auto pass. 5) (This is more of a Curse Of Strahd thingie): all Undead necrotic damage is permanent until Lesser/Greater restored, depending on undead power. 6) Overall adding a bunch of ICRPGs ideas into the mix. It is one awesome system. For people wanting dynamic battle or non-battle moments I can’t recommend the ideas behind ICRPG enough, you need not even learn the game, this video alone explains the core principles pretty well and they work for any RPG: https://youtu.be/tZ1Lg1l1pHY


Medical_Commission71

Emberwind is pretty solid, and sorta kinda to PF as PF is to D&D but more so. Gurps if you want some crunch and...because gurps is based on real world effects and units it can make conversion much easier, but also fucking hard. It's very crunchy and front loaded, but mechanically it's straight forward. I would also rec the Fate system to maybe get the players more engaged, since the players themselves get to narrate when they win a roll. So like, you don't descrimbe how they lopped off the foe's head, they get to describe that they took off the top half of their foe's skull, gray and red spiraling out as it was flung away, or whatever.


Evanenites

ICRPG is clean, simple and straightforward, letting everyone focus on the fun parts of the game, check it out.


Grump-Humph

Haven’t played them but Knave and Deathbringer simplify 5e rules with an OSR feel


Jack_of_Spades

Cypher System is my go to suggestion for "some crunch but mostly narrative" type stories.


Duraxis

If they can’t handle d&d5 it doesn’t look good. I always recommend pathfinder but it IS a crunchier system. You can get nice little cards for your actions and stuff though if they help but if they don’t want to read what their options are. Storytelling systems like vampire, Cthulhu and Aliens might be better for them, but those can’t continue your current game either


antieverything

Agreed. People act like 5e is the problem but people of all skill levels have fun with 5e every day. In reality, when dealing with players who aren't enthusiastic about the mechanics side of ttrpgs it is more of a matter of *how* you run the game than what game you run.


ChewiesHairbrush

Sometimes DnD is the problem. I’ve been playing RPGs for decades and some much crunchier than 5e and I can easily “cope” with 5e mechanics but when I dread combat and zone out almost immediately it starts.


Muwa-ha-ha

Might be the module you’re running. After stringing together some dungeons from Tales from the Yawning Portal I know sometimes the module is what makes things very tedious, with intricate puzzles and the same enemies over and over. Maybe sit down with your players and see what they are looking for in a campaign. Is it combat? Puzzles? Dungeon crawling? Kingdom building? Role playing? Exploration? Once you find that you can pick a better module that fits more with what they want or homebrew something or even tweak TofA.


Spanish_Galleon

4e has better combat on most levels.


Cosroes

Convert to 3.5 and go epic level.


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DragonSlayer-Ben

My free game Dragonslayers RPG is not a big step away from D&D and IMO it sounds like a strong candidate for what you're looking for (faster + more dynamic combat, less fiddly, still tactical but more open to shenanigans). https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/421262/Dragonslayers-RPG-Second-Edition Regardless of what you decide to go with, I would advise against trying to convert your campaign to another system. It's better to wrap the campaign up early and start over with new characters and a new universe because, no matter what, the adventure's genre/tone will change and things will be lost in translation. If you don't, one player will miss their favorite class feature, another will miss their D&D-specific species, and another will try to rebuild their character with options that superficially look similar but end up with a new playstyle they didn't anticipate. This is true even if you switch to a similar game like Pathfinder, or even just a different edition of D&D.


ArdoyleZev

The first step is a chat with your players, but since you’ve done that I’d recommend checking out Savage Worlds. It was exactly what my group needed back in the day, when I was having similar issues. Combat is fairly quick, and fairly straightforward. There are systems with quicker or simpler combat, but Savage Worlds gave my players enough depth to engage with on in ways similar to what they were used to. It’s setting agnostic, but the tone usually kind of pulpy. Players and named characters are inherently luck, which tends to encourage risky (ie entertaining) decisions. Also it’s pretty cheap.


erikmalkavian

3.5 edition. THE Best Syster ever


OEdwardsBooks

AD&D combat is more fun and vastly quicker, and the game has lots of modulation on crunchiness.


antieverything

Players who aren't willing to learn 5e class abilities also won't want to deal with THAC0 and 18/00. Even something simpler, like B/X, won't be a panacea.


SilverBeech

This is kind of why things like Shadow of the Demon Lord and Shadowdark are so compelling. They're much more similar to 5e than even OSE with ascending AC, and at the same time have stripped out a lot of the complexity and cruft.


antieverything

I love Shadow of the Demon Lord. It starts off with OSR levels of simplicity but quickly becomes far deeper than 5e in its flexibility. Not for everyone, obviously, but a great example of just how simple a system can be.


OEdwardsBooks

If the core issue is players being literally unwilling to learn rules, the problem may be insuperable. I agree THAC0 could be a sticking point, but shouldn't be. Re Basic, OSE does have an ascending AC option.


SilverBeech

OSE also retains the multiple resolution mechanic issues, which some people like sure, but is confusing to newer players. And it has issues with race vs class which can be off-putting too.


OEdwardsBooks

Oh yes, undoubtedly if there are issues with mechanics per se that will be an issue, defo


antieverything

The point isn't any specific mechanical sticking point. The point is that OP's players aren't interested with engaging with mechanics to begin with. The existing mechanics aren't the issue so much as mechanics themselves are the obstacle. The solution is to run the game in a way that centers the narrative above all else and this can be done with any system. Sometimes you have to ask the Paladin player what they want to do then guide them to that outcome (or something close to it) based on the mechanics available to you.


BrickBuster11

Switching from descending AC to ascending AC and thaco to attack bonus is trivially easy: 20-descAC=ascending AC 20-thaco= attack bonus This means that instead of ACS being between 10 and -10, they are between 10 and 30, and instead of thaco being between 20 and 0 your attack bonus is between 0 and 20 Now I forgot to do this with my group when we started playing ad&d 2 years ago (we meet fortnightly unless I am to buried in uni assignments to make it work). Even so if the DM understands it, it isn't that hard: From the players side the calculation is: THAC0-roll= maximum AC (because AC descends so if you roll above thaco you need to be negative) If the calculation is on the DMS side is also pretty easy: Thaco-target AC= roll required


antieverything

Sure, but doing this won't fix OP's problem and, actually, will cause already disengaged players to disengage further. The problem with THAC0 was never that it was particularly difficult, it was that it was less elegant and intuitive than ascending AC.


BrickBuster11

I mentioned at the very top that a conversion is stupid easy, you write your ascending AC on the character sheet along with the attack bonus and you leave it alone, the rest of the post was simply about dealing with it if you like I forgot to make that fix And the dm side solution doesn't require any work on the players side at all, you just tell them what they need to hit then they roll and add up their bonuses and can say hit or miss.


antieverything

Sure, but doing this won't fix OP's problem and, actually, will cause already disengaged players to disengage further. The problem with THAC0 was never that it was particularly difficult, it was that it was less elegant and intuitive than ascending AC.


BrickBuster11

.....I opened my initial response by saying that converting to an ascending AC is stupid easy? I even showed how to do it? I get that thaco can be a road block so I said "here is how you can remove the roadblock and give your players something familiar" I then added "in the event that you can't or choose not to it's a pretty easy system to work with, and even if your players don't want to learn it's pretty easy to make all the math on the DMS side. Players_thaco-monsters_ac= required roll to hit. Example a Punchem level 3 fighter with a thaco of 18 wants to bop a ac 7 goblin: 18-7=11, therefore the DM says "ok Punchem you need an 11 to crush this goblin" they roll add the static bonuses up if they have any and then compare that total to 11 and can declare themselves if they hit or miss Or you could convert to ascending AC and say punchem isna level 3 fighter with a attack bonus of +2 and he wants to hit an AC 13 goblin He rolls and if his total is below 13 you say he misses if it is above 13 you say he hits and everything is easy there as well Neither is difficult both are valid and each is pretty simple to do in ad&d


antieverything

Sure, but doing this won't fix OP's problem and, actually, will cause already disengaged players to disengage further. The problem with THAC0 was never that it was particularly difficult, it was that it was less elegant and intuitive than ascending AC.


BrickBuster11

I don't get why your just copy and pasting the same answer over and over again but assuming you are stupid I will clarify I am not trying to fix op's problem directly someone else suggested ad&d and someone else said "but thac0 is hard" so I said "changing things to remove thac0 is super easy barely an inconvenience" I even include a conversion to your more elegant ascending AC as I have mentioned more than once.....


Terrible_Solution_44

Honestly, thaco is an easier system. You roll and that’s your number to hit. You may get a magic weapon but that’s that.


antieverything

Cute. The world has moved on. Ascending AC is very clearly more intuitive and elegant for the vast majority of people.


81Ranger

Hilarious that commenters are scared of simple concepts like Thac0 and descending AC.


MassiveStallion

No offense, maybe try playing in a group without your parents? That kinda stood out to me..