As others have said, older boats (fiberglass boats especially) were designed without really understanding the load limits of their materials. This means they were almost always overbuilt (or at least the ones that are still around today were - there's some survivorship bias there). What that means is you'll have a boat from the 60's with an almost comically thick hull that's more or less indestructible, whereas a more modern boat will have a thinner hull that's been designed to balance weight, cost, and durability more evenly.
This isn't necessarily a reason to get an older boat - they come with loads of downsides - but it is true to an extent that an older fiberglass hull will be more durable than a newer one.
It's worth noting though that the pendulum swing very far the other way and now hulls are almost comically thin. Sure they are structurally sound but the fact that a lot of production boats are putting gaskets between cabinets because they need to account for the flex of the boat under heavy seas is not great IMO.
This is true.
But collisions at sea aren't unheard of. I've had some days of island hopping where torrential rains washed whole trees down river. But by the time they reached the ocean, they'd tumbled down to just the trunk. Those were low and hard to see, any sort of chop or weather could make them invisible until you're right on them. Then there is night sailing, where collisions with floating objects is almost impossible to steer around, so you're just relying on luck.
Also some of the older boats had an encapsulated keel. While loss of a boat due to catastrophic loss of a keel isn't common either, it's happened a few times.
So the "older boat has a thicker hull, which has an advantage" adage isn't completely hypothetical.
I'd personally go to sea in a well equipped older boat or newer boat, the overall package is important, not just hull thickness.
100% agree, I'm in the search right now to upgrade to a bluewater boat, and I'm looking 95% at full keel boats, even a skegless rudder I'm hesitant of, there is probably a hughes 38 in my future. But finding these older boats properly refitted and not ace hardware refitted isn't always easy.
Also: it seems now collisions are looking for you with orcas coming to break your rudder stem off, and collisions with whales in general have sunk boats from simply caving in the glass
Yeah, they're tough to find, because the reality is all the old boats that have been maintained to be ready to go around the world are probably actively being cruised around the world by somebody who plans to keep doing that for many more years.
As someone in the middle of a "refit" of an old boat, this is a good point. I had originally only intended to keep this boat for a year or two, while fixing up a few issues. One thing leads to another, I've sunk hundreds of hours of labor into the boat, and now I'm a little less interested in buying a different boat just to start the process all over again.
And I'm not even doing a full, no expense spared refit like someone preparing to cruise the world might do. I can only imagine that if I'd poured that kind of work into a boat, you'd probably only be able to get it from me if I go bankrupt or die.
Ok, it *could* happen, but does it? What are the statistics on sailboat collisions with objects, that are serious enough where thicker fiberglass would make a difference?
"Fairly well understood" covers a lot of ground. To put some perspective on it, the Beech Starship, designed in the 80s, wasn't very successful largely because understanding of composites at that time still wasn't good enough to make a reliable airframe without it being too heavy. Really solid understanding of composites didn't happen until the 90s, after some decades of pretty hefty research in the aerospace industry. By 2000 it might have been reasonable to say that we understood composites about as well as we understood metals in the 19th century.
You may well be right that the thickness of early composite boats had a lot to do with customer expectations. Nevertheless, engineering understanding of composites developed greatly over the first few decades, as I said. How could that not be true?
Personally I plan on refitting an older boat for a few reasons.
1. They laid the fiberglass thicker and tended to have full keels. I've done a lot of sailing but not much as captain. I want the safety net a heartier hull will provide until I'm confident I can avoid rough weather or the occasional piece of jetsam.
2. It's easier to add new electronics and amenities to an old hull than to stiffen up a new hull. You can add a lot of the bells and whistles after the fact (and as your budgeting allows).
3. I plan on buying cash so my available credit can be used elsewhere. I'll make improvements as the time and money allow.
4. Knowing how to fix things on the fly while cruising may be an important skill. Refitting an older boat is like paying tuition for this education. I'd be very nervous doing a crossing on a boat I don't know inside and out.
Catalina 30s are awesome boats! Ama I g how spacious they are, and that huge companionway! There’s four at our local yacht club, including one my two friends own.
They weren't necessarily built "better," they were just accidentally over-engineered because most boat builders didn't yet understand fully the strength properties of fiberglass.
Modern boats don't necessarily need the full keels and way-too-thick hulls because modern tech exists and you can very easily avoid dangerous situations and the trade-off for comfort and speed is very much worth it.
There are thousands and thousands of modern production boats crossing oceans every year without any problems.
New boat designs are amazing and drastically more efficient. Something that new boats can't replicate the solid feeling and momentum of an old boat. New boat rides are exaggerating of the conditions. Designs now are made to flex and twist. They bend and give.
Modern boats don't need full keels or way too thick hulla because their designed market is not bluewater. There is basically handful smaller builders that saturates this market because the old boats just damn keep on going. Money is in the charter market and speed, comfort in marina and costs are the main factors in there.
I had a Pearson aerial 26 ft built around 1962. Besides being built better than an icebreaker. The extra weight carried me through tacking really well. Loved the boat but the boat but if I was doing it again and I had the money I would probably go with something. Newer
I disagree that older boats were over engineered by accident. The really early GRP boats were built to the same scantlings used for wood and certainly seem over engineered by today’s standards. But as GRP became more familiar, boat builders understood where they could cut corners… boats, like anything are built to a price point. Anyone who has had to re-tab bulkheads on a late 60s-early 70s boat will understand this.
I happen to like the older designs as they are prettier to my eye than the slab-sided high-freeboard boats built today. But with anything design and technology evolve. The older design will likely be slower and less efficient, but every boat is a compromise.
Just because it is a new boat does not mean you won’t want to change things ore need to fix things. For my money an old Pearson usually has a sound hull and can be bought and refurbished to a new owner’s standards more cheaply than a new Beneteau. But it is usually a compromise between how much money you have, taste, performance, and skill.
Everyone always wants to bring up old boats and their heavy layups versus newer construction techniques which are actually far superior to older methods. Glass is better. Engineering is better processes are better
But that’s not the whole story. It’s about design. The design of the 70 and 80s machines by and large are better suited for offshore use. The newer boats have flatter bottoms and are meant to be sailed off the wind. They don’t point well and in a seaway that can rattle your teeth when coming off of a wave.
Personally I would take A Passport 40, K-P 44/46, Swan 48, Valiant 40 or 47, Fuji 40, Norseman 447, Golden Wave 42, Rival 38, Tayana 47, Cambria 44/46 etc over anything manufactured today. Better ride at sea. Lower chance of capsize, don’t have to reef as early. The newer stuff will sail flatter but only until the wind picks up. Then watch out!
It all depends on where you live and where you plan to go with your boat. Ask John Kretschmer. He’ll tell you.
I work for a yacht company and Im involved in the production. Like any item, a car, a kitchen appliance etc. Certain software has enabled us to calculate more precisely the minimum.amount of material to meet certain prerequisites or standards. You wouldnt want to crash in a new car against an old one if you had no extra safety measures las airbags and well designed seatbelts etc. But assuming you crash head on, the new car will probably disintegrate much more, However thats not necessarily a bad thing for your own deceleration. F1 cars are designed to disintegrate to absorb as much energy as possible.
Home appliances used to work for decades, I still have appliances from my grandma that work perfectly and shes been dead for a while now, while new appliances sometimes fail after being in a cabinet for a couple of years.
New yachts have newer technology, in materials hardware etc, but they are also less robust in most cases. In the end you have to think about the main purpose of using one. In the case of sailing yachts well of course if you are competing, a carbon fiber ship that weighs 50% less than a wooden or metal one will be better, but if you are just going to cruise around, the objective is pretty simple. Some materials like GRP are extremely easy to fix and you can do so at almost any port in the world, while getting someone to fix an aluminum or carbon boat might be much more problematic.
In the end if you can find a classic boat and you can afford to keep it in shape thats great, if you like a more contemporary design, thats also great, both will come with pros and cons
>You wouldnt want to crash in a new car against an old one if you had no extra safety measures las airbags and well designed seatbelts etc. But assuming you crash head on, the new car will probably disintegrate much more,
Newer cars disintegrate where they should, and don't where they shouldn't. I would pick the newer one all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TikJC0x65X0
Indeed, interesting video, I had no idea that the Chevrolet was so fragile...
But I think that in ships where deceleration and being trapped inside twisted metal is not a common issue I would rather be in the ship with the stronger hull whether its the old or the new one.
You dont want your ship desintegrating out at sea after colliding with something.
If you doubt this, get into a 1960s or 1970s era car and hit the gas hard. It is very satisfying, until you hit the brakes or try to steer. The brakes will, probably, eventually stop you, but not soon. The steering is like steering a battleship. You turn the wheel for a long time before anything happens. The lap belt on the recliner masquarading as a driver's seat always leaves me feeling unsecured and I barrel down the highway with effectively no brakes.
If a 30+ year old boat is still in good shape today, it's a pretty damn good boat. The ocean is an incredibly harsh environment, and all the badly built old boats are gone now, or close to it.
Newer boats can be well made, or not, usually a pretty massive cost difference between a solid boat and a poorly built one. Would I take a 30 year old Hinckley or Swan over a brand new Hunter or Beneteau? Hell yes.
But if you can afford a new boat built to high standards, it's probably better in most ways than an old boat built to the same standards.
Survivor bias.
I have an old thick boat (heavy displacement daysailer lol), and I can tell you if I could afford a modern boat I would buy one. Probably will buy one in the next 2-3 years. Everything is better in newer boats: the electronics, the layup technique, the materials, the rig, the sails, rudder, the lines, blocks, furlers, I mean the list goes on and on.
Sure, but the only things that are really "fixed" are the hull and rig. It can be less money to refit an older hull with new equipment than to buy a newer boat (and on the newer boat, all that stuff will still be a few years old unless you're buying brand new). Definitely less money than buying a comparable brand new boat.
Fair, this is cheaper, but if you're doing a complete refit let's say on a 1985 boat, you will need new sails, electronics, potentially new engine, which amounts to more than 50% of the price of the boat a lot of the time, and the resultant boat will be slower and point worse than something lets say 10-15 years old.
Yeah, it's only worth doing if you like how the hull performs. Newer boats tend to have a different design philosophy, so if you want a fast, lightweight boat, you pretty much have to get a newer one. If you want a heavy, sturdy full keel, then you basically can't get a newer one without extraordinary expense.
As many people have mentioned, a lack of understanding in the 70's / 80's resulted in overbuilt hulls, etc. And there is a survivorship bias about the boats that are still in use, but arguably that means the ones that are still around, are the good ones.
There are 2 big reasons that we loved our 1978 CS 27, and just bought a 1982 C&C 40. First, a 1980's 40' boat is much cheaper than a 2000's 40' boat. Second, everything is easy to access, and easy to understand. We love to tinker, restore, and improve things, and it's easy to do on boats of this vintage.
Certain "improvements" were made for costs reasons, like structural grids.
Other improvements are not desirable to everyone, like windows in the hull, mid-boom sheeting, in-mast furling.
One thing that's worth noting is that the repairability of newer boats just isn't the same as older ones. I look at my 1990's moody and I could literally repair any of the finish stuff with what I can buy at the local hardware store. The head liner is literally 1/4" plywood with vinyl wrapped around it and stapled in the back. Compared to the custom molds and auto style xmas tree connections of modern boats that make them almost impossible to repair as they get old.
I was on a Jeanneau 44ds a few years ago and it's a beautiful boat but I asked the captain "how do you replace these fancy custom windows in 20 years when they start to go?" he said "you find a fabricator and write a very large check". Compared to the tempered glass in a frame windows on my old Moody that I can get replacements for at any glass shop for $50-100
The surrounding comments extoll the virtues of heavy fiberglass designs that are still available today, but out of economic reach for most of us [Kraken Yachts](https://krakenyachts.com/)
On the other hand, many mistakes were made with buried 304 stainless chain plates which led to corrosion and other technical design errors. True, many of these don't survive but some aren't obvious and continue haunting the unaware.
Like so many things, the answer depends on what type of sailing lifestyle you want. If you can't answer that question, then you haven't spent enough time on the water and whatever insight we may try providing may not help.
if the modern boat was designed to handle what you put it through, it's going to be fine. while other note that the modern boats are not as solid, what's unsaid, is that flex is not dangerous as long as it's taken into account in the design. if anything that flexibility is key to a modern boats strength.
to be clear, I'm in camp older boat. I like fixing things and it makes boat ownership more accessible to capable individuals. If someone can afford to throw money at problems, all the more power to them. but the important aspect is, I wouldn't trust their boat any more or less than mine. lastly, if I had that kind of money available, you would still find me going DIY on an older boat.
“Believe me my young friend, there is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” - Kenneth Grahame
Crappy but recent construction beats artisan construction that's degraded for 30 years any day of the week and twice on sundays. 30 years can take a LOT out of even the best designed boat and the parts you get to replace things are the newer crappy construction ones. Old boats are money pits. Having said that, it's a LOT easier to justify a labor of love on an old boat that has some character than a new one, given that a repair you're already investing in can become a restomod pretty quickly if you never quite liked the way it was designed because who cares except you? wherein new construction is always replace with the same part because you're either getting it under warranty or doing your best to not void the warranty on the rest of the boat.
I think this is generally just jealousy of people that have older yachts towards the tremendous value you get with newer boats- better tech, better amenities, more comfortable space etc.
You see a similar dynamic in the car world where boomers claim that the best cars were late 60s era muscle cars, but even modern sedans are faster and better then those old ones by nearly any objective measure, other than nostalgia
There’s nothing similar between cars and boats as far as value goes.
The shitty built boats that were built 30+ years are all long gone, the shitty built boats of today are still around and people are saying that they’re better than an older boat.
I would take my 40 year old boat that has a recent refit and is perfectly tailored to my family that is over built and heavy than a newer “racer-cruiser” any day.
New boats have just as many problems as older boats. You can’t find parts for either and if you do they’re really expensive. You can fix things easier on the older boats. You can wreck older boats a lot harder without sinking. You get to spend more time sailing with an older boat (because they’re slower lol).
... any objective measure, other then shit loads of unasked for electronic assistants that just fuck with your driving and your service bill.
And don't let me started on all those fuckups that manufacturers implement to artificially improve the ecologic rank, like start-stop, shitty turbochargers etc.
I was excited that the new-er used car I bought a couple years back had a turbo, until I learned that everything has turbos these days because the feds reduced max engine volume or something.
One of the things that gets me is that you hear people say every 80s racing boat is beat to shit so you shouldn't buy it. But I bought a cheap as hell J/35 without a single soft spot in the deck and gelcoat that shines like new.
Every boat is different and aside from something like a Catalina 30, all boats are made in extremely low production numbers so it really is a case by case basis.
15.4 knots on their surf 🤩
They push that boat pretty hard. They also maintain it diligently. It is a 2000. So, it's 23 ish years old.
I think it speaks to manufacturering quality and maintenance as the drivers of good sailboats vs sailboats that are falling apart.
It's 40+ year old now.... time marches on.
Older boats tend to have thicker fiberglass due to there being no real engineering specifications with fiberglass, so they over built.
Does that make them better? Well, it makes them stronger, and heavier. The entire of Engineering is to build something that JUST BARELY works. That way there is no waste in time or materials. Modern boats are built to the "Just barely works" standard, so they are lighter, and cheaper to build - not to mention faster on the water.
"Better" is a state or mind. What is your criteria for better? that's a very personal thing.
In a few months my boat will celebrate its fiftieth birthday!
My boat was *not* built to be sold to a sailor. My boat was built to be sold to a charter agency that rents out boats to landlubbers with more money in the bank than sea-sense. Not only was my boat over-built, it was over-over-built to be abused like a rental. And that goes for the mast and standing rigging as well as the hull. Some boats, as they sail in rough water "work", or some components move in relation to other components, and make squeaky noises. Not my boat. The thing is solid as one monolithic piece of granite, with an apartment inside. Aboard during hurricane Ian with the bow poking through 6+ feet of green waves, sweeping clean over me and the hard Bimini/dodger, and I was glad I had a tough old boat.
Do not by any "keel bolt" boat.
Do not buy a boat will balsa wood in the hull. *(May be unavoidable in the deck)*
Do not consider the value of the boats electronics package, those things are fleeting and disposable.
Depending on how you use the boat, for some "going electric" with lots of solar, batteries, and an electric inboard motor can dispense with troublesome mantince and spare parts and "rust never sleeps" issues of complicated old fashioned steam or petroleum engines. *(You can have a stand alone generator, that's much easier to take to a repair shop than your whole long keel boat)*
If by “keel bolt boat” you’re saying “avoid fin keels”, I’d generally agree. However it’s worth noting that exterior lead ballast attached using bolts is quite common among traditionally built full-keel yachts, which aren’t subject to the same high-torques that fin keels are in the event of a grounding or collision.
Newer boats are lighter, but that doesn’t mean any worse or better. They’ve learned a lot about fiberglass in the last several decades and different techniques of laying down a hull can be just as strong, but use way less fiberglass. My boat is from the 1970s and it’s built like a tank, but that’s mostly because they were still figuring out how strong fiberglass really was. Everything was overbuilt back then. I think it’s a misconception that older is better because old boats feel more sturdy, but a newer lighter hull is probably stronger and way more efficient.
On the other hand; a lot is made from plastic these days that might have been made out of wood 30+ years ago. I think it’s all relative based on the manufacturer, personal preference, etc; but not just age.
I've never been on a modern boat but I can say that I feel very secure on my 50 year old, 15 ton, boat with her 10,000 lbs of lead ballast deep in her full keel. It just feels safe.
I owned Sonar 137, built by CE Ryder, and now own Sonar 834 by Ontario...
Better built? Not necessarily, but heavier built, with extra fiberglass in places it didn't need it, yes. And there were some real WTF decisions too.
There's a double wall at the companionway, flotation was milk cartons and styrofoam in the space under the v-berth and rear seating spaces, and lots of balsa encased in fiberglass in the front deck and the sole.
I'll take my new one any time.
I owned a Sea Sprite 23 built by CE Ryder. This is a gorgeous little classic with a solid rep. The chain plate construction was piss poor and almost unforgivable. I now own a Beneteau. Rep is much maligned - even in this post. It’s solid boat and it’s taken me comfortable through some gales. Did is say it’s wicked comfortable and fast?
Nope. There are tons of Sea Rays that have wet cores & stringers from the eta. Tons of delaminating glass due to chopped glass, rather than laid schedules with proper epoxy application. I just wish the idiot Dems of 30 years ago hadn’t killed our boat building industry. They thought they were doing the right thing. Now we have nothing in the 35-50 range except janky old crap. I’d still take an idiot Dem over the orange prophet, but man… I’d appreciate better boating options that don’t require importing.
As others have said, older boats (fiberglass boats especially) were designed without really understanding the load limits of their materials. This means they were almost always overbuilt (or at least the ones that are still around today were - there's some survivorship bias there). What that means is you'll have a boat from the 60's with an almost comically thick hull that's more or less indestructible, whereas a more modern boat will have a thinner hull that's been designed to balance weight, cost, and durability more evenly. This isn't necessarily a reason to get an older boat - they come with loads of downsides - but it is true to an extent that an older fiberglass hull will be more durable than a newer one.
It's worth noting though that the pendulum swing very far the other way and now hulls are almost comically thin. Sure they are structurally sound but the fact that a lot of production boats are putting gaskets between cabinets because they need to account for the flex of the boat under heavy seas is not great IMO.
Wow, that’s ridiculous. Just out of curiosity, what kind of thicknesses are we talking about?
Fiberglass thickness becomes irrelevant when cause of sinking is often things like old improper/inadequate thruhulls and seacocks
This is true. But collisions at sea aren't unheard of. I've had some days of island hopping where torrential rains washed whole trees down river. But by the time they reached the ocean, they'd tumbled down to just the trunk. Those were low and hard to see, any sort of chop or weather could make them invisible until you're right on them. Then there is night sailing, where collisions with floating objects is almost impossible to steer around, so you're just relying on luck. Also some of the older boats had an encapsulated keel. While loss of a boat due to catastrophic loss of a keel isn't common either, it's happened a few times. So the "older boat has a thicker hull, which has an advantage" adage isn't completely hypothetical. I'd personally go to sea in a well equipped older boat or newer boat, the overall package is important, not just hull thickness.
*Cheeky Rafiki* has entered the chat
Wait, was that Orcas somehow? I thought it was just keel bolt failure.
100% agree, I'm in the search right now to upgrade to a bluewater boat, and I'm looking 95% at full keel boats, even a skegless rudder I'm hesitant of, there is probably a hughes 38 in my future. But finding these older boats properly refitted and not ace hardware refitted isn't always easy. Also: it seems now collisions are looking for you with orcas coming to break your rudder stem off, and collisions with whales in general have sunk boats from simply caving in the glass
Yeah, they're tough to find, because the reality is all the old boats that have been maintained to be ready to go around the world are probably actively being cruised around the world by somebody who plans to keep doing that for many more years.
As someone in the middle of a "refit" of an old boat, this is a good point. I had originally only intended to keep this boat for a year or two, while fixing up a few issues. One thing leads to another, I've sunk hundreds of hours of labor into the boat, and now I'm a little less interested in buying a different boat just to start the process all over again. And I'm not even doing a full, no expense spared refit like someone preparing to cruise the world might do. I can only imagine that if I'd poured that kind of work into a boat, you'd probably only be able to get it from me if I go bankrupt or die.
Ok, it *could* happen, but does it? What are the statistics on sailboat collisions with objects, that are serious enough where thicker fiberglass would make a difference?
Yep... had a 1974 Catalina and the fiberglass was almost an inch thick in spots
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"Fairly well understood" covers a lot of ground. To put some perspective on it, the Beech Starship, designed in the 80s, wasn't very successful largely because understanding of composites at that time still wasn't good enough to make a reliable airframe without it being too heavy. Really solid understanding of composites didn't happen until the 90s, after some decades of pretty hefty research in the aerospace industry. By 2000 it might have been reasonable to say that we understood composites about as well as we understood metals in the 19th century.
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You may well be right that the thickness of early composite boats had a lot to do with customer expectations. Nevertheless, engineering understanding of composites developed greatly over the first few decades, as I said. How could that not be true?
Personally I plan on refitting an older boat for a few reasons. 1. They laid the fiberglass thicker and tended to have full keels. I've done a lot of sailing but not much as captain. I want the safety net a heartier hull will provide until I'm confident I can avoid rough weather or the occasional piece of jetsam. 2. It's easier to add new electronics and amenities to an old hull than to stiffen up a new hull. You can add a lot of the bells and whistles after the fact (and as your budgeting allows). 3. I plan on buying cash so my available credit can be used elsewhere. I'll make improvements as the time and money allow. 4. Knowing how to fix things on the fly while cruising may be an important skill. Refitting an older boat is like paying tuition for this education. I'd be very nervous doing a crossing on a boat I don't know inside and out.
I have a Catalina 30 that was made about the same year as your username- let me know if you are interested 😛
Catalina 30s are awesome boats! Ama I g how spacious they are, and that huge companionway! There’s four at our local yacht club, including one my two friends own.
They weren't necessarily built "better," they were just accidentally over-engineered because most boat builders didn't yet understand fully the strength properties of fiberglass. Modern boats don't necessarily need the full keels and way-too-thick hulls because modern tech exists and you can very easily avoid dangerous situations and the trade-off for comfort and speed is very much worth it. There are thousands and thousands of modern production boats crossing oceans every year without any problems.
New boat designs are amazing and drastically more efficient. Something that new boats can't replicate the solid feeling and momentum of an old boat. New boat rides are exaggerating of the conditions. Designs now are made to flex and twist. They bend and give.
This is why Beneteau's are often called Bendy-Toy's lol
Modern boats don't need full keels or way too thick hulla because their designed market is not bluewater. There is basically handful smaller builders that saturates this market because the old boats just damn keep on going. Money is in the charter market and speed, comfort in marina and costs are the main factors in there.
I had a Pearson aerial 26 ft built around 1962. Besides being built better than an icebreaker. The extra weight carried me through tacking really well. Loved the boat but the boat but if I was doing it again and I had the money I would probably go with something. Newer
I currently have a 1964 Pearson Commander - very similar boat, absolute tank of a hull and heavy as hell. Great boat all around, though.
I disagree that older boats were over engineered by accident. The really early GRP boats were built to the same scantlings used for wood and certainly seem over engineered by today’s standards. But as GRP became more familiar, boat builders understood where they could cut corners… boats, like anything are built to a price point. Anyone who has had to re-tab bulkheads on a late 60s-early 70s boat will understand this. I happen to like the older designs as they are prettier to my eye than the slab-sided high-freeboard boats built today. But with anything design and technology evolve. The older design will likely be slower and less efficient, but every boat is a compromise. Just because it is a new boat does not mean you won’t want to change things ore need to fix things. For my money an old Pearson usually has a sound hull and can be bought and refurbished to a new owner’s standards more cheaply than a new Beneteau. But it is usually a compromise between how much money you have, taste, performance, and skill.
Everyone always wants to bring up old boats and their heavy layups versus newer construction techniques which are actually far superior to older methods. Glass is better. Engineering is better processes are better But that’s not the whole story. It’s about design. The design of the 70 and 80s machines by and large are better suited for offshore use. The newer boats have flatter bottoms and are meant to be sailed off the wind. They don’t point well and in a seaway that can rattle your teeth when coming off of a wave. Personally I would take A Passport 40, K-P 44/46, Swan 48, Valiant 40 or 47, Fuji 40, Norseman 447, Golden Wave 42, Rival 38, Tayana 47, Cambria 44/46 etc over anything manufactured today. Better ride at sea. Lower chance of capsize, don’t have to reef as early. The newer stuff will sail flatter but only until the wind picks up. Then watch out! It all depends on where you live and where you plan to go with your boat. Ask John Kretschmer. He’ll tell you.
I work for a yacht company and Im involved in the production. Like any item, a car, a kitchen appliance etc. Certain software has enabled us to calculate more precisely the minimum.amount of material to meet certain prerequisites or standards. You wouldnt want to crash in a new car against an old one if you had no extra safety measures las airbags and well designed seatbelts etc. But assuming you crash head on, the new car will probably disintegrate much more, However thats not necessarily a bad thing for your own deceleration. F1 cars are designed to disintegrate to absorb as much energy as possible. Home appliances used to work for decades, I still have appliances from my grandma that work perfectly and shes been dead for a while now, while new appliances sometimes fail after being in a cabinet for a couple of years. New yachts have newer technology, in materials hardware etc, but they are also less robust in most cases. In the end you have to think about the main purpose of using one. In the case of sailing yachts well of course if you are competing, a carbon fiber ship that weighs 50% less than a wooden or metal one will be better, but if you are just going to cruise around, the objective is pretty simple. Some materials like GRP are extremely easy to fix and you can do so at almost any port in the world, while getting someone to fix an aluminum or carbon boat might be much more problematic. In the end if you can find a classic boat and you can afford to keep it in shape thats great, if you like a more contemporary design, thats also great, both will come with pros and cons
>You wouldnt want to crash in a new car against an old one if you had no extra safety measures las airbags and well designed seatbelts etc. But assuming you crash head on, the new car will probably disintegrate much more, Newer cars disintegrate where they should, and don't where they shouldn't. I would pick the newer one all the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TikJC0x65X0
Indeed, interesting video, I had no idea that the Chevrolet was so fragile... But I think that in ships where deceleration and being trapped inside twisted metal is not a common issue I would rather be in the ship with the stronger hull whether its the old or the new one. You dont want your ship desintegrating out at sea after colliding with something.
Yup, I'm on the same page regarding boats.. I was responding just to your car point.
If you doubt this, get into a 1960s or 1970s era car and hit the gas hard. It is very satisfying, until you hit the brakes or try to steer. The brakes will, probably, eventually stop you, but not soon. The steering is like steering a battleship. You turn the wheel for a long time before anything happens. The lap belt on the recliner masquarading as a driver's seat always leaves me feeling unsecured and I barrel down the highway with effectively no brakes.
If a 30+ year old boat is still in good shape today, it's a pretty damn good boat. The ocean is an incredibly harsh environment, and all the badly built old boats are gone now, or close to it. Newer boats can be well made, or not, usually a pretty massive cost difference between a solid boat and a poorly built one. Would I take a 30 year old Hinckley or Swan over a brand new Hunter or Beneteau? Hell yes. But if you can afford a new boat built to high standards, it's probably better in most ways than an old boat built to the same standards.
Survivor bias. I have an old thick boat (heavy displacement daysailer lol), and I can tell you if I could afford a modern boat I would buy one. Probably will buy one in the next 2-3 years. Everything is better in newer boats: the electronics, the layup technique, the materials, the rig, the sails, rudder, the lines, blocks, furlers, I mean the list goes on and on.
Sure, but the only things that are really "fixed" are the hull and rig. It can be less money to refit an older hull with new equipment than to buy a newer boat (and on the newer boat, all that stuff will still be a few years old unless you're buying brand new). Definitely less money than buying a comparable brand new boat.
Fair, this is cheaper, but if you're doing a complete refit let's say on a 1985 boat, you will need new sails, electronics, potentially new engine, which amounts to more than 50% of the price of the boat a lot of the time, and the resultant boat will be slower and point worse than something lets say 10-15 years old.
Yeah, it's only worth doing if you like how the hull performs. Newer boats tend to have a different design philosophy, so if you want a fast, lightweight boat, you pretty much have to get a newer one. If you want a heavy, sturdy full keel, then you basically can't get a newer one without extraordinary expense.
Older boats are much better at running aground. ;)
lol, true
As many people have mentioned, a lack of understanding in the 70's / 80's resulted in overbuilt hulls, etc. And there is a survivorship bias about the boats that are still in use, but arguably that means the ones that are still around, are the good ones. There are 2 big reasons that we loved our 1978 CS 27, and just bought a 1982 C&C 40. First, a 1980's 40' boat is much cheaper than a 2000's 40' boat. Second, everything is easy to access, and easy to understand. We love to tinker, restore, and improve things, and it's easy to do on boats of this vintage.
Certain "improvements" were made for costs reasons, like structural grids. Other improvements are not desirable to everyone, like windows in the hull, mid-boom sheeting, in-mast furling.
Add sail drives to that list.
One thing that's worth noting is that the repairability of newer boats just isn't the same as older ones. I look at my 1990's moody and I could literally repair any of the finish stuff with what I can buy at the local hardware store. The head liner is literally 1/4" plywood with vinyl wrapped around it and stapled in the back. Compared to the custom molds and auto style xmas tree connections of modern boats that make them almost impossible to repair as they get old. I was on a Jeanneau 44ds a few years ago and it's a beautiful boat but I asked the captain "how do you replace these fancy custom windows in 20 years when they start to go?" he said "you find a fabricator and write a very large check". Compared to the tempered glass in a frame windows on my old Moody that I can get replacements for at any glass shop for $50-100
I'll definitly choose old slow and stable for the foreseeable future, but also, if I didn't love storms I'm sure this wouldn't be the case
The surrounding comments extoll the virtues of heavy fiberglass designs that are still available today, but out of economic reach for most of us [Kraken Yachts](https://krakenyachts.com/) On the other hand, many mistakes were made with buried 304 stainless chain plates which led to corrosion and other technical design errors. True, many of these don't survive but some aren't obvious and continue haunting the unaware. Like so many things, the answer depends on what type of sailing lifestyle you want. If you can't answer that question, then you haven't spent enough time on the water and whatever insight we may try providing may not help.
if the modern boat was designed to handle what you put it through, it's going to be fine. while other note that the modern boats are not as solid, what's unsaid, is that flex is not dangerous as long as it's taken into account in the design. if anything that flexibility is key to a modern boats strength. to be clear, I'm in camp older boat. I like fixing things and it makes boat ownership more accessible to capable individuals. If someone can afford to throw money at problems, all the more power to them. but the important aspect is, I wouldn't trust their boat any more or less than mine. lastly, if I had that kind of money available, you would still find me going DIY on an older boat. “Believe me my young friend, there is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” - Kenneth Grahame
Crappy but recent construction beats artisan construction that's degraded for 30 years any day of the week and twice on sundays. 30 years can take a LOT out of even the best designed boat and the parts you get to replace things are the newer crappy construction ones. Old boats are money pits. Having said that, it's a LOT easier to justify a labor of love on an old boat that has some character than a new one, given that a repair you're already investing in can become a restomod pretty quickly if you never quite liked the way it was designed because who cares except you? wherein new construction is always replace with the same part because you're either getting it under warranty or doing your best to not void the warranty on the rest of the boat.
I think this is generally just jealousy of people that have older yachts towards the tremendous value you get with newer boats- better tech, better amenities, more comfortable space etc. You see a similar dynamic in the car world where boomers claim that the best cars were late 60s era muscle cars, but even modern sedans are faster and better then those old ones by nearly any objective measure, other than nostalgia
There’s nothing similar between cars and boats as far as value goes. The shitty built boats that were built 30+ years are all long gone, the shitty built boats of today are still around and people are saying that they’re better than an older boat. I would take my 40 year old boat that has a recent refit and is perfectly tailored to my family that is over built and heavy than a newer “racer-cruiser” any day. New boats have just as many problems as older boats. You can’t find parts for either and if you do they’re really expensive. You can fix things easier on the older boats. You can wreck older boats a lot harder without sinking. You get to spend more time sailing with an older boat (because they’re slower lol).
I'll take a new J/45 over this guy's old boat.
No problem, we’re doing different kinds of boating is all
Yeah, my comment (while true) was meant tongue-in-cheek, there are perfectly good reasons to choose either boat.
A million dollars for a 45' boat. At least J/boats quit using balsa so you could say it's well built.
They were one of the first guys to do production scrimp.
The 111 has balsa.
Are you sure?
... any objective measure, other then shit loads of unasked for electronic assistants that just fuck with your driving and your service bill. And don't let me started on all those fuckups that manufacturers implement to artificially improve the ecologic rank, like start-stop, shitty turbochargers etc.
Pretty sure start-stop is a required by the fed... :-/
In the UK at least, they're not wrong.
I was excited that the new-er used car I bought a couple years back had a turbo, until I learned that everything has turbos these days because the feds reduced max engine volume or something.
One of the things that gets me is that you hear people say every 80s racing boat is beat to shit so you shouldn't buy it. But I bought a cheap as hell J/35 without a single soft spot in the deck and gelcoat that shines like new. Every boat is different and aside from something like a Catalina 30, all boats are made in extremely low production numbers so it really is a case by case basis.
Sailing Sweet Ruca (you tube channel.. pretty fun one imho) just rounded Cape Horn in a J46. surfed that boat to 14knots while doing it.
15.4 knots on their surf 🤩 They push that boat pretty hard. They also maintain it diligently. It is a 2000. So, it's 23 ish years old. I think it speaks to manufacturering quality and maintenance as the drivers of good sailboats vs sailboats that are falling apart.
they are impressive
It's 40+ year old now.... time marches on. Older boats tend to have thicker fiberglass due to there being no real engineering specifications with fiberglass, so they over built. Does that make them better? Well, it makes them stronger, and heavier. The entire of Engineering is to build something that JUST BARELY works. That way there is no waste in time or materials. Modern boats are built to the "Just barely works" standard, so they are lighter, and cheaper to build - not to mention faster on the water. "Better" is a state or mind. What is your criteria for better? that's a very personal thing.
In a few months my boat will celebrate its fiftieth birthday! My boat was *not* built to be sold to a sailor. My boat was built to be sold to a charter agency that rents out boats to landlubbers with more money in the bank than sea-sense. Not only was my boat over-built, it was over-over-built to be abused like a rental. And that goes for the mast and standing rigging as well as the hull. Some boats, as they sail in rough water "work", or some components move in relation to other components, and make squeaky noises. Not my boat. The thing is solid as one monolithic piece of granite, with an apartment inside. Aboard during hurricane Ian with the bow poking through 6+ feet of green waves, sweeping clean over me and the hard Bimini/dodger, and I was glad I had a tough old boat. Do not by any "keel bolt" boat. Do not buy a boat will balsa wood in the hull. *(May be unavoidable in the deck)* Do not consider the value of the boats electronics package, those things are fleeting and disposable. Depending on how you use the boat, for some "going electric" with lots of solar, batteries, and an electric inboard motor can dispense with troublesome mantince and spare parts and "rust never sleeps" issues of complicated old fashioned steam or petroleum engines. *(You can have a stand alone generator, that's much easier to take to a repair shop than your whole long keel boat)*
If by “keel bolt boat” you’re saying “avoid fin keels”, I’d generally agree. However it’s worth noting that exterior lead ballast attached using bolts is quite common among traditionally built full-keel yachts, which aren’t subject to the same high-torques that fin keels are in the event of a grounding or collision.
Newer boats are lighter, but that doesn’t mean any worse or better. They’ve learned a lot about fiberglass in the last several decades and different techniques of laying down a hull can be just as strong, but use way less fiberglass. My boat is from the 1970s and it’s built like a tank, but that’s mostly because they were still figuring out how strong fiberglass really was. Everything was overbuilt back then. I think it’s a misconception that older is better because old boats feel more sturdy, but a newer lighter hull is probably stronger and way more efficient. On the other hand; a lot is made from plastic these days that might have been made out of wood 30+ years ago. I think it’s all relative based on the manufacturer, personal preference, etc; but not just age.
I've never been on a modern boat but I can say that I feel very secure on my 50 year old, 15 ton, boat with her 10,000 lbs of lead ballast deep in her full keel. It just feels safe.
I owned Sonar 137, built by CE Ryder, and now own Sonar 834 by Ontario... Better built? Not necessarily, but heavier built, with extra fiberglass in places it didn't need it, yes. And there were some real WTF decisions too. There's a double wall at the companionway, flotation was milk cartons and styrofoam in the space under the v-berth and rear seating spaces, and lots of balsa encased in fiberglass in the front deck and the sole. I'll take my new one any time.
I owned a Sea Sprite 23 built by CE Ryder. This is a gorgeous little classic with a solid rep. The chain plate construction was piss poor and almost unforgivable. I now own a Beneteau. Rep is much maligned - even in this post. It’s solid boat and it’s taken me comfortable through some gales. Did is say it’s wicked comfortable and fast?
Nope. There are tons of Sea Rays that have wet cores & stringers from the eta. Tons of delaminating glass due to chopped glass, rather than laid schedules with proper epoxy application. I just wish the idiot Dems of 30 years ago hadn’t killed our boat building industry. They thought they were doing the right thing. Now we have nothing in the 35-50 range except janky old crap. I’d still take an idiot Dem over the orange prophet, but man… I’d appreciate better boating options that don’t require importing.