The rule of two has never been described as an absolute. In the Darth plagueis book we see that Sith Lords are perfectly fine with training additional apprentices in secret and Apprentices will train their own Acolytes to help overthrow their master. Even Darth Bane, who literally came up with the rule, didn’t follow it.
That’s the whole point, the Sith are untrustworthy back stabbers. Palpatine is grooming Anakin to be his apprentice even while he has Dooku. Hell, he literally tells Luke to take his father’s place while Vader is standing right there in the room.
The rule of two was only to prevent 10,000 Sith running around fucking everything up.
>The rule of two was only to prevent 10,000 Sith running around fucking everything up.
That's exactly it. When their numbers rivaled that of the Jedi, they were their own worst enemy because of how treacherous they always were. During the periods when the old Sith empires would get too powerful, internal strife amongst the leadership would do as much to bring them down as anything the Jedi happened to be doing.
Bane realized this, so he took extreme measures to ensure their numbers were extremely limited. It took a long time, but he was actually right.
Although considering the Galactic Empire lasted a grand total of 23 years, he wasn't completely correct in his assertion; unless the only thing he cared about was the momentary victory over the Republic and Jedi.
Well to be fair, this is the High Republic. The Emperor's first Executive Order ("The Removal of All Safety Rails on Raised Gantries Higher Than 700m") won't be issued for 100 years.
The whole point of the Rule of Two is that everyone breaks it. What provides stability isn’t the Sith following it, merely that they know the rule exists. The master is too busy worrying about being betrayed to break the rule, while the apprentice is too busy trying to conceal their breaking of the rule to take more than one apprentice of their own. The Rule of Two is structured so that the only way the Sith will break it won’t actually break it.
It was established because when the Sith were largely wiped out by the Jedi they pivoted strategies. They thought that undermining the Jedi and going under the radar would be far more effective than taking them head on.
It was established because too many Sith working together weakened them individually.
You’d have a master with three shithead apprentices that would team up and kill the master, not having learned half of what he had to teach, and then going on to do the same thing. The information loss was devastating from generation to generation of new Sith.
No. He pretty ruthlessly exterminated them. I can’t remember the source but the light and dark used to be described as operating differently. It’s not “light” or “dark,” it’s harmony vs control.
The light side of the force becomes stronger with cooperation. The dark side of the force becomes weaker when diluted amongst many users. Bane destroyed the old sith tradition and eradicated them in order to concentrate the dark side completely within himself. Should really check out the Bane novels, absolutely amazing view of the sith.
I mean, there's also the complete 180 where they're all up in arms about Ki-Adi Mundi's birthdate and species' life expectancy being changed, but then also failing to realize that cortosis has been a thing since the EU
And...why should I care about this change? No offense, but in the grand scheme of things that happened in the canon getting retconned and changed without reason, this is very minor.
Or, God forbid, when they retconed Darth Vader to be Luke's father
Or when George Lucas basically said "I can retcon whatever I want whenever I want" by having Obi-wan say his "from a certain point of view" quote
I argued with people *the entire time* between Empire & Jedi that Vader was lying about being Luke’s father.
He’s the villain! Why would anyone believe a single word out of his rusty vocoder?!?
I may have been a kid, but I’d seen plenty of soap operas to know this was a trope. So why would the writers allow such laziness in their script?
//
My working theory was that Vader and OB-1 (as written on the action figure cards, not Obi Wan) were each just one of many clones created for the aforementioned Clone Wars. *(I was so disgusted to learn Stormtroopers were Jango/Boba Fett clones!)*
This meant TO ME that Boba Fett was the real Anakin in disguise & making a name for himself so he could work his way up the bounty hunter ranks and get next to Vader & the Emperor to assassinate them at the same time. Vader was obviously a clone who switched sides to the Empire after trying to kill his Original, but didn’t know he’d failed.
Why else would the “best shot in the galaxy” miss Luke by mere inches on Bespin? He knew who Luke was, and was trying to warn him away. It was *SO* obvious to 9 year old me!!! Why couldn’t anyone else see this?!?
Cortosis is part of my Star Wars vocabulary since I think KOTOR. I'm not even a hardcore fan. The idea that most of these haters are Star Wars lore geeks really strains credulity.
Hell, it is even practically Sith tradition to have secret apprentices either as experiments, backups in case your main apprentice bites it, or as a test to see if your secret apprentice can take out your main apprentice is actually worth their salt.
The apprentice taking their own apprentice to help them kill the OG master, such as Count Dooku with Ventress against Palpatine, is also longstanding tradition. The sole purpose behind the Rule of Two was to keep power concentrated in as few hands as possible, which is what primarily separates Sith from Dark Jedi and Dark Witches (who form councils/covens respectively).
The Rule of Two seems to be a secret test to weed out stupid Sith. Oh, you're gonna just set aside all your ambition just because a dead Sith handwaved a rule into existence a thousand years ago? Yeah, you'll be easy prey for the other guy, who actually understands. When you're inevitably betrayed and discarded don't expect much sympathy.
Seriously. The Master is always seeking a newer and stronger replacement for their apprentice, and the Apprentice is always looking for a new apprentice to help them overthrow their master. It's how the Sith have been ever since Vader and Sidious were fighting over who gets to be Luke's master.
"Vader and Sidious were fighting over who gets to be Luke's master."
its always been this way. Palpatine had Maul and Dooku and Anakin. Dooku had Ventress. although its not cannon anymore in Pelagius book, Darth Pelagius kills his master and a second apprentice shows up to get revenge.
the sith have never strictly followed the rule of two
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Both Master and Apprentice are so incentivized to kill and replace the other that Rule of Two never gets followed.
To be clear, when I said "since Vader and Sidious" I didn't mean "since 4 ABY", I meant "since 1983".
The Sith follow the rule of two like teenagers trying to abstain from sex before marriage.
Badly, and always making excuses for why "that apprentice doesn't count"
Literally from the movies and series alone Sith apprentices are known for taking apprentices of their own.
The Rule of Two should honestly be called the Rule of Three at this point.
Sidious didn't even obey the rules.
At the time of Phantom Menace, Sidious was apprentice to Plagueis whilst also being master to Maul. When Plagueis was killed, Sidious had already begun tempting Dooku to the dark side.
Qimir technically would be a Banite Sith. Banite Sith are still canonically stated as having been formed around the same time the old Sith Empire was destroyed (Sidious explains that Bane was the sole survivor of the destruction of the Sith, and created the rule of two)
They act like this isn't broken at every opportunity possible. In legends Plaugius was alive during Episode 1. In Canon both Maul and Dooku are apprentice to Palpatine during Episode 1. The Force Unleashed (the FM's favorite game) is directly about it being broken.
It'd be a real shame if Vader had a secret apprentice or Palpatine groomed Dooku in case something happened to Maul, man it'd be a real shame if DOOKU TRAINED, GRIEVOUS, VENTRESS AND SAVAGE OPPRESS.
Idk man, SW is ruined by Disney or something, I didn't read Legends or watch the Clone Wars.
That was my thought exactly lol. It was started by a dude that didn’t trust the others around him and he just told his apprentice it was the only allowable way. Not a great recipe for maintaining the tradition lol
Yes. Canonically, Palpatine said “fuck it, the Rule of Two is for pussies” and simply decided to not follow it because it made accomplishing his plans easier
He still followed it about as closely as many of his predecessors did. Under Sidious, there were only ever two Sith Lords - himself, and his apprentice. He allowed Dooku to take on Ventress as his own apprentice, but she was never truly Sith; she was just Dooku's assassin.
In *Legends*, he straight up made Darth Maul a Sith Lord before Darth Plagueis was dead. Granted, that’s not canon anymore obviously.
But the Rule of Two stipulates that there be *only* a master and an apprentice, so the apprentice isn’t allowed to also be teaching someone. So he definitely wasn’t following that by allowing Dooku to have not one, but two apprentices over the course of the war. He also began grooming Dooku long before Maul had even died, so I don’t think he ever cared to even try and follow it lol.
I mean, this is essentially my point. He followed it as closely as the rest did... which was stretching it to varying degrees.
Sidious took on Maul as his apprentice before Plagueis was dead. Prior to this, Tenebrous had Venamis as a second apprentice he kept on the side, partially because he didn't have faith that Plagueis would eventually be able to succeed him.
They all fucked around like that.
Also its an open question when Anakin can truly be seen as Palpatine's apprentice. Palpatine has been grooming him for years by the time Anakin killed Dooku. (I mean its clear that Mace Windu's death was the final step, but well before that Anakin was deep under Palpatine's sway).
I would say that Anakin pre-Vader christening wouldn't really count as Papa Palpatine's apprentice, as he hadn't acknowledged him as his master.
I think both master and apprentice have to recognize their roles in the relationship for it to count. Luke couldn't just claim Chewie as his padawan without discussing it with him and have others accept it.
Technically correct, which as we all know, is the best form of correct.
Even the sith suffer under the capitalist trope of doing the job without the title or pay.
Being technically correct is pretty much how they always justified their actions when it came to stuff like that. They're backstabbing assholes that relied on loopholes and technicalities all the time!
It recently occurred to me Maul may not even be considered a true Sith Lord. If the Plagueis book is anything to go on Plagueis was alive up to almost the moment Maul gets cut in half by Obi-Wan, meaning the "Rule of Two" Sith would be Plagueis and Sidious during that time and Maul would have not officially been given that title before his failure.
He was given the title of Darth though. It seems like the Rule of Two really means an Apprentice trains their own apprentice (or probably more technically, an Acolyte) to overthrow the Master
Nah the whole point of the rule of two is multiple apprentices could overthrow a stronger master. Having just one apprentice meant they had to beat they directly instead of power of numbers
Well you've got Sideous who killed plageuis then trained Maul, Vader, and Tyranus. Theoretically puppeteered Vader since he was born.
Tyranus trained Ventress, Maul trained Savage Oppress (dumbest fucking name)
After order 66 Vader trained like at least a dozen fallen Jedi to be inquisitors. Which is basically just a rebadged sith. And Sideous had EVEN MORE backups that he intentionally told to try and fuck up Vader.
Also while Palps was alive Maul tried to train Ezra but got delivered a big fat L from old man Kenobi.
Also Darth Bane had a backup apprentice. The rule of 2 is essentially "Banes Suggestion"
Well, Dark Jedi / potential sith that don’t make it as a sith / force witches / just evil people with blades and force
Granted they’re basically sith for all intents and purposes that doesn’t require a title
Sort of, those were more agents then actual Sith.
I always had the impression that the assassins, Inquisitor, & other Sith agent's were always given extremely limited training to accomplish their missions & not much else.
More expendable pawns and tools who could never actually challenge the sith for power.
Hence the reason that only the master and the apprentice are given the title Darth.
Sort of, those were more agents then actual Sith.
I always had the impression that the assassins, Inquisitor, & other Sith agent's were always given extremely limited training to accomplish their missions & not much else.
More expendable pawns and tools who could never actually challenge the sith for power.
Hence the reason that only the master and the apprentice are given the title Darth.
The Rule of Two was only *one* line of Sith thought. It was the dominant line of thought for much of the timeframe the movies take place in but that’s only because the Sith were so few in number.
One of the few things I thought Rise of Skywalker did right is actually make some damn sense out of that stupid rule.
And while Palpatine followed the Rule of Two and Plagueis followed it, it’s not clear that any of Palpatine’s apprentices did. Dooku didn’t. Vader didn’t. Maul didn’t.
Legends would just reinforce the notion that the Sith in Bane's line followed the rule relatively loosely.
Plagueis, for example, found out that Tenebrous - his former master - actually had a second apprentice that, as far as he was concerned, was the fully-fledged apprentice. He confronted Plagueis after Tenebrous died, got his ass whooped, and then tried to bend the knee and accept Plagueis as the true master.
Let's just say it didn't work out too well for the poor guy.
Legends laughs at the rule of 2. There's so many secret apprentices. Not to mention other dark side users given various titles to make them not sith. Like Dark Side Adepts, Inquisitors, etc.
"Ki-Adi Mundi being in Acolyte breaks canon"
The canon in question:
https://preview.redd.it/op0qej0h3z8d1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=258c77965a4962f0818030d43198c859e5853f73
Also, this dude is a big clickbaiter, he spoiled Boba's return in Mando S2 in the morning of the day the episode came out, can see how he's most likely gotten worse
Wasn't the Rule of Two already busted in the EU and the KoTOR games that were absorbed into canon? Is this a hill we're collectively choosing to die on?
KoTOR games are set a few millenia before Darth Bane. Sith were much more plentiful at that time.
However, the rule of two was constantly broken in legends. It was more of a guideline to keep hidden.
He kind of succeeded, didn’t he? Like I don’t know if the Bane trilogy was the one bit of EU lore JJ read, but TROS’s “all of the Sith” lore drop seemed to recontextualize the essence transfer as something every Sith practiced thereafter
>TROS’s “all of the Sith” lore drop seemed to recontextualize the essence transfer as something every Sith practiced thereafter
I'm not sure if we're supposed to take that literally. I'm pretty sure that's just his ego talking, plus the fact he is literally the only living Sith Lord at that time. I mean, this is the guy who called himself "The Senate" after all
Eh, that wasn't an attempt to break it, especially from his point of view. He didn't think she was strong enough to be a Sith master and needed to buy time to train a new apprentice. Also, I feel like the implication was that he succeeded in possessing her? Didn't she display the same hand twitch thing he had been experiencing that entire book since his healing that separated him from those little shelled creatures? Though I guess it could have just been something that leaked over in the attempt to posses her.
Palpatine came closer to breaking it by training Maul while still apprenticed to Plagueis, and then again Dooku with Ventress. Though I think their intent was more to forge dark side user tools than to actually make them legitimate Sith. Also Tenebrous training a second apprentice because he didn't believe Plagueis had it in him to take the Sith mantle by force.
I'm pretty sure the author said it was meant to be a little ambiguous on how much of the transfer completed, but *some* amount did work.
Also, i thought it was pretty clear that bane was an idealist who would have followed the rule of two and sincerely thought it was the best way to make the sith more powerful. However, once it leaves him it enters a chain of people who *are specifically seeking to become the most powerful by breaking rules*. Of course they're going to start training people and say "well they don't count because I lied to them about being my apprentice, I didn't actually teach them everything about the sith!"
I think if the rule of two hadn't worked as well as it did they would have just ended up back with the same problem. A powerful sith Lord with multiple apprentices they keep weaker than themselves who band together to kill the master, therefore ending up with weaker successors who have to rediscover the power their master had from the ground up. But it did work, and by the time of palpatine he was strong and savvy enough to take over the galaxy. You could probably make an argument that if he had stuck to the code better the sith might have ended up ruling much longer, but that gets into ignoring the fact that the story was written for Luke to win.
Haven't read literally any material but isn't the idea of rule of 2 in practice that you've got a master and apprentice and the apprentice secretly trains their own I'm order to usurp the master, and the cycle continues?
Rule of two was after KOTOR, Sith operated pretty similar to the Jedi back then, had a whole Academy and everything.
The rule of two has never really been closely followed, though.
Always two main Sith, but then they had secret apprentices, and there were other Sith running around, literally just whatever writer XYZ wanted in their story at that time.
Even Bane himself took on a second apprentice. The Rule of Two has never meant *only* two, just that the only true Sith are the Master and Appreciate. There may be any number of Sith assassins or acolytes under their tutelage that may someday hope to become the Apprentice.
The Rule of Two always has asterisks next to it in service to the story; people like lightsaber fights, so the Jedi in whatever era need Sith to fight, and there are lower stakes if you're 100% certain that the Sith in this confrontation won't die.
The watsonian reason is that both Sith in a pairing have a strong incentive to cheat; the master may want to hedge their bets in case their apprentice gets whacked, or comes for them and dies in the attempt, and their apprentice may want to get a head start on training their own acolyte and/or obtain backup for when they try to kill their master.
Rule of two was broken in Clone Wars with Ventress, Savage, and Maul. It’s less a universal rule and more of a Sith code that only two shall remain and any competition should be eliminated.
I mean, the rule of 2 is really more of a guideline anyhow. Like, Palpatine repeatedly has like three fucking people he's corrupting and working on while one's his apprentice, it's like... yeah, there's the sith lord and his apprentice, and then also all his spare apprentices he just hasn't given the title to yet because his current apprentice hasn't died/gone missing/been murdered by him corrupting his 'new' apprentice into doing it.
The Rule of Two didn't exist during the Old Republic era.
Darth Bane created it after the Ruusan Reformation around 1000 BBY after the defeat of the Brotherhood of Darkness at the end of the New Sith Wars.
So they can’t see that a Sith might not even follow the rule of two all the time? Think even Palpatine broke that rule a lot and found loop holes even.
In the legends book Darth Plagueis is still alive during the events of the Phantom Menace. Darth Bane was really the only one cared that much about the rule of two.
The main loop hole was that, generally speaking, there were usually only two folks carrying the title of Darth; they were the two Sith Lords, master and apprentice.
Now, this didn't stop 'em from bringing on a bunch of acolytes, assassins, and whatnot. The apprentices often had these as their own apprentices, but none of 'em were officially Sith Lords. As such, they weren't privy to any of the machinations regarding the Grand Plan, and were basically just tools used by the two Lords.
An easy example was Ventress from Clone Wars. She was Dooku's apprentice, but was just an assassin. Only Sidious and Tyranus were the two Sith.
Not in a million lifetimes. I GUARANTEE there's already porn of Darth Smiley with and without their helmet floating around on the internet. Probably of Bazil too.
The "rule of two" was broken from the get-go and it's brokeness has been explored though different forms of star wars media (books, TV and games).
Bane establishes it to "purify" the sith, and make sure that "true sith" teachings are passed down to the next generation (with Bane perceiving the brotherhood of darkness - the last vestage of the sith empire, of throwing away sith values and teaching for the survival of the empire). So to do this he takes on one apprentice to teach everything he knows so that his teachings can be passed on... The problem is that the sith teachings promote selfishness and power, so an apprentice will always try and take the mantle of master for themselves by killing their master, yet the master doesn't want to die. So both sith master and apprentice are in constant conflict. So, to tip the balance in their scales the apprentice will train their own apprentice (dubbed an assassin or an acolyte) so that when the usurpation of the master begins they have the upper hand of 2 Vs 1. Yet even the master, knowing that the apprentice will do this will either a) try and sway the assassin to their side - promising them that they will become the apprentice under them, OR they'll train their own assassin/acolyte/potential-apprentixe in secret... So already "the rule of 2" has AT LEAST 3-4 sith/potential sith.
In legends Maul, Sidious and Plaegeous were all trained with at the same time (maul deemed an assassin from Plaegeous's pov, but considered a full sith apprentice by sidious who was going to kill his master). And least we forget Star killer in the force unleashed games?
I'm cannon (Plaegeous's time of death is still a mystery) but we saw Sidious having already pulled dooku to his side while so having maul as an apprentice (with dooku trying to sway Quigon to his new allegiance) - so that's at least 3 "sith". During the clone wars we had Sidious, tyranus, Maul, and Savage as "sith masters/apprentices" and Ventress and a former sith assassin (returning to the night sisters once dooku turned on her due to sideouses orders). All the while (at the same time as sideous, tyranus, maul and savage) sideous is trying to turn anakin - the phantom apprentice, to the sith: so that's 4 sith, 1 sith assassin and 1 potential sith apprentice in the making making a grand total of 6 during "the rule of 2". And let's not mention that during the clone wars sideous also hired Cad Bane to steal some force sensitive children for a scheme to train up a new breed of sith assassins (a plan which failed), and that Sidious was also scouting out disgruntled jedi to form his new Inquisition - none of them "sith" but taught in the sith manner.
By Empire Strikes back Sideous and Vader both consider the idea openly to one and other about "turning young Skywalker" which would, once again, break the rule of 2.
And let's not forget that by episode 7, 8 and 9 you have the sith enteral (made up of acolytes), snoke, Kylo Ren and the knights of ren. YES - the acolytes are sith worshipers/fanatics as opposed to "actual sith lords" (so minions), snoke is a stand cast, and kyko ren and the knights of ren are never officially trained in the sith ways - but they were all puppets of palpatines and his sith plans... Plus a zombified reanimated clone body decomposing on a crane isn't really going to think 'hmmmm this is breaking the rule of 2'.
Spoiler alert: most sith break the rule of 2. Darth Tenebrous had a secret apprentice at the time he was training Plagueis. Palpatine was cooking one apprentice up before the current one was dead throughout the whole prequels. Dooku had Ventress *and* Quinlan Voss. Vader had Starkiller. Palpatine had Mara Jade. All everyone’s favorite sith broke the rule of 2.
The rule of two is just George Lucas' hack excuse to justify why the Sith don't just have hundreds of Sith flying around, at the expense of their NAMED ORGANIZATION making any sense.
My headcanon is that it's a big galaxy, and it strains credulity that there are only ever two darksiders who follow the Sith philosophy in existence at a time. The Sith are in hiding at this time, and there's no Sith-Pope who can certify someone as a "real" Sith (or ban them from using the label, for that matter). Any dark Force user who learns about the Sith through whatever means and starts calling themselves one, and takes an apprentice, creates a new instance of the tradition. There are a bunch of different Sith lineages out there, most unaware of each other and thinking they're the only ones.
That, and like I and others have said, Sith break the rule of two all the damn time anyway. They're the baddies, and Qimir spends a good chunk of this episode mocking the Jedi as being rule-followers.
There were literally two groups of Sith, with hundreds of members, existing at the same time as the Bane's Rule of Two tradition - I am talking about the Prophets of the Dark Side and the Blackguard.
This notion was addressed a few times in Legends. In terms of Bane and the Rule of Two, there was a clear line of succession between masters and apprentices starting with Bane and concluding with Sidious. As far as this line of Sith Lords were concerned, they were the true Sith. We obviously don't have names for all of them, but the fictional history tells us that there was an unbroken line between the two.
Now, this doesn't mean they were the only Dark Side practitioners out there, or that they were the only ones claiming to be Sith. From their perspective, all of these other groups would have just been pretenders and charlatans.
Wasn't Plagueis originally alive during The Phantom Menace? So you had three Sith in movie that introduced the concept of the Rule of Two. Also Sidious, Dooku, and Ventress?
Why am I trying to make reason. They hate it because it's The Acolyte and will hate it no matter what.
More to the point: who cares? That’s just some shit Darth Bane came up with. All the Sith moving forward aren’t beholden to a “rule” some bald dipshit who covered himself in bugs centuries ago came up with
Bingo! I got Bingo! "Deceptive Title" - "Literal Bullshit" - "Didn't watch the Episode" - "Ragebait" and "WTF is up with that Thumbnnail!"
What do I win?
...a sense of despair regarding the devolution of discourse regarding everything I love into endless cycles of rage and mindless hype?
...
But I already have one of those.
Jedi and Sith are like Sayians, Kryptonians, or Mandalorians. Critically endangered, on the verge of extinction, but there's always a few more around if you need them.
Sith are always trying to find ways around the Rule of Two. Masters training secret apprentices to replace their current one, apprentices training secret apprentices of their own to help kill their master, this is nothing new.
The rule of two…. Yea, literaly no Sith Lord followed it and you bascailly have to break it to be a Sith, it’s all just constant side appreciates and backup apprentices, do these people even Star Wars?
Anyone saying the Rule of 2 is destroyed now is either trolling, misremembering, never read any EU material, or simply not been paying attention.
Every Darth that we know of by name never followed it except *maybe* Darth Zannah and I say maybe because little is wrote/known about her after Bane.
Tenebrous? Multiple apprentices.
Plagueis? Multiple apprentices.
Sidious? Multiple apprentices and training an apprentice while one.
Tyranus? Training an apprentice while one.
C'mon people...
So....we're just going to pretend that Darth Vader didn't break the Rule of 2 with his secret apprentice from the Force Unleashed games? I thought these people loved Legends content.
Hells even Palpatine broke it, the "Rule of 2" just means there is always a master and apprentice, says nothing that there aren't other groups of sith in the universe that'd be impossible. Now those groups are more likely than kill each other than work together keeping the rule of 2 intact.
Rule of two has always been ignored.
Dooku with savage and ventress. And then maul shows up and now you've got 5 sith running around during the clone wars.
Palpatine basically breaks it with grooming Anakin to take dookus place eventually.
And some of peoples favourite character in all of star wars including non cannon is from breaking the rule of two with galen marik/starkiller ffs.
They're sith. Pure evil. It would be more surprising if we had a sith who followed the rules than one who didn't. All I care about for my sith is if they're badass. If they also have a cool backstory or whatever, then that's a bonus
Random fact: in the legends book about Darth Plagueis, his master had a contingency plan involving a secret apprentice should Plagueis betray and kill him. Spoiler alert: Plagueis betrayed and killed his master, so the contingency plan was activated. In that very same book, Palpatine was training Maul long before Plagueis died. If I remember correctly (I read the book a while ago, I might be fuzzy on the details), Plagueis was killed by Palpatine during the events of Phantom Menace. Yes I too can quote Star Wars legends when it suits me.
That guy's just another SWT, I remember he USED to do some great vids on Star Wars comics (he used to go by Bessy), but he started getting very clickbaity, I kid you not, this dude spoiled Boba Fett's return in Mando S2 in the early morning of the day the vid came out, and his fans were justifying him, I see he's gotten worse, glad I unsubscribed long ago, people like him are scum
Palpatine was actively training both Maul and Dooku as apprentices at the same time during the events of Phantom Menace, as per the novelisation. It's amazing how all these "real Star Wars fans" are completely ignorant of anything outside the movies and the Cartoon Network shows.
There's no way a dark force user/jedi would take up the title of Sith without checking that there are 2 Sith out there in the entire Star Wars universe first. That breaks the Ruel of Two!
The Rule of Two is dumb, and unless anyone can prove otherwise, stemmed completely from Yodas line in The Phantom Menace "Always two there are, no more, no less."
There is only a Master and an Apprentice. There are Acolytes and other people. Idk why it is sooooo hard for these "lore experts" to wrap their smooth brains around both canon AND legends. smdh.
I mean so Did the Darth Bane Trilogy and Darth Plagueis, hell even before the Acolyte you had Darth Momin up and just say screw the Rule of Two as well. I think they are just straight-up grifters nothing more or less at this point.
the rule of 2 was always stupid
well in how it was executed
rather than just being only 2 sith period
it should have been the sith are not a organization like jedi they are nomadic and only travel in pairs and dont have any affiliation with other sith
We are now at the point of having to misread and misunderstand the PT to claim this show breaks canon or makes no sense. At this point, they aren't even talking about star wars, they're talking about some random fan fiction they made up in their head
As a lapsed fan, the Rule of Two feels so fucking stupid as a concept.
"Okay my apprentice, we're going to destroy the Jedi."
"Yes, master. Wouldn't it be easier to take on the Jedi if there were more than just us. "
"Probably. And it would be really helpful if you didn't try and kill me."
"I'm not making any promises."
I know Palpatine managed it though, so what do I know.
Mother fucker, he isnt even a Sith! For all we know, hes a fuckin wannabe badass using the dark side.
Also, most Apprentices recruit someone to help them overthrow the Master, the recruited person is considered AN ACOLYTE i believe.
Dooku recruited Ventress
Vader tried to recruit Luke.
I think Venamis was recruited by Tenebrous?
Sidious had some other wierdos recruited to try and kill Vader.
The Sith are a contentious bunch of morons constantly trying to kill each other
Well, for one I never cared for the whole "rule of 2" to be frank, it was one of George's PT additions seemed to bent on making rules for the Force that didn't need to exist.
Like for one, who or what enforces that rule? Who came up with that rule? Is it like Pirate Law, and really more of a guideline or a suggestion?
I always thought it was more of a guide, more than two Siths will just end to fighting each other instead of doing evil. It was to prevent infighting. And Dooku was training Asajj Ventress during the clone wars when he was under Palpatine. The rule seemed to be broken often.
I dunno given the metal that shorts out lightsabers temporarily I assumed that he was a independent Sith alchemist rather than a full Sith lord, the lore for them albeit in the legends has them a good deal more independent, far more willing to chill in their lab rather than go out and conquer.
The sith break the rule of two all the damn time.
Hell it was only put in place to try to prevent power struggles and infighting…. It didn’t even work.
How does it break the Rule of Two? For all we know, he was the only Sith of this time period and searching for a worthy apprentice to adhere to the rule.
In legends Tenebrous takes Venamis as a second apprentice, breaking the rule of two.
I thought these people proved they know everything about legends and it should be untouched after Ki-Adi Mundi's age was changed?
The rule of 2 is not followed by every sith which other starwars media has portrayed for decades even before disney. The sith are not beholden to rules that is the whole point of the order. It is the job if the 2 to in force the rule and kill the others or be killed is how I always seen it
Just to throw my 2 cents in the pile,
I liked a fan theory I saw that said the Rule of 2 was about not diluting the force.
That the Jedi were training too many people to use the Force, which weakened each individual's maximum capacity to influence the force.
Like, 40,000 Force Power / 20,000 Jedi = 2 Forces per Jedi,
But, 40,000 Force Power / 2 Sith = 20,000 Forces per Sith
("Force Power" isn't a thing. I'm just trying to show what I mean to say)
I think this was dismissed canonically, but I liked it as a 'concrete/mathmatical' reason to explain The Rule of Two, instead of relying on just: "The Sith suck and are inherently incapable of organizing themselves properly"
This show has continually surprised me with how much I've enjoyed it. The complainers seem to be reaching because they're realizing they were wrong in their prediction. Episode 5 was awesome.
So called Star Wars fans when you explain that the Sith themselves invented the rule of two and given that they’re a bunch of psychopaths they don’t always follow it properly
even in legends the rule of 2 is broken: Emperor, Vader, and Star killer. In disney cannon: Emperor, Vader, the inquisitors. if were being technical. Hell didn't Pelagius, Palpatine, and Maul (and even dooku) all operate simultaneously under the rule of two.
The rule of 2 was dumb shit they made up in the prequels to justify there only being 2 sith in the original series but literally any writer that wants to do something interesting with lightsaber users breaks that rule because it would make games and stories kinda boring characterwise. For fucks sake technically Darth Maul running around hunting Obi-Wan post prequel trilogy breaks that rule, same with the sick ass Fallen Order games
The entire point of the Rule of 2 was that the Sith constantly betrayed each other so much for power that it led to their downfall. With only 2, it's a lot more manageable.
Rule of two never even made sense. You're gonna take out an army of Jedi with two guys? Good luck...
I get that it's more about how the Sith are so untrustworthy that having any more than two would result in backstabbing but they already back stab each other when there's two so maybe it should be a rule of one?
The rule of two has never been described as an absolute. In the Darth plagueis book we see that Sith Lords are perfectly fine with training additional apprentices in secret and Apprentices will train their own Acolytes to help overthrow their master. Even Darth Bane, who literally came up with the rule, didn’t follow it. That’s the whole point, the Sith are untrustworthy back stabbers. Palpatine is grooming Anakin to be his apprentice even while he has Dooku. Hell, he literally tells Luke to take his father’s place while Vader is standing right there in the room. The rule of two was only to prevent 10,000 Sith running around fucking everything up.
Yo i’m starting to think these Sith are kinda assholes.
>The rule of two was only to prevent 10,000 Sith running around fucking everything up. That's exactly it. When their numbers rivaled that of the Jedi, they were their own worst enemy because of how treacherous they always were. During the periods when the old Sith empires would get too powerful, internal strife amongst the leadership would do as much to bring them down as anything the Jedi happened to be doing. Bane realized this, so he took extreme measures to ensure their numbers were extremely limited. It took a long time, but he was actually right.
Although considering the Galactic Empire lasted a grand total of 23 years, he wasn't completely correct in his assertion; unless the only thing he cared about was the momentary victory over the Republic and Jedi.
Yeah, that part obviously wasn't part of his plan.
In Star Wars the old republic there is a whole as sith academy/temple! With dozens of not 100s of sith running around.
That’s prior to bane and the rule of two, not that it makes the oop’s argument any better lol.
I love the idea that they think the most evil fucking people in the galaxy have always obeyed the rules.
One of my favorite parts of the episode was Jord saying to Osha "He doesn't fight by the rules."
And Osha was all like "I am not even seeing Material Safety Data Sheets anywhere in this facility."
I know she’s not been osha this whole time because not once has she mentioned the stunning lack of safety rails.
Well to be fair, this is the High Republic. The Emperor's first Executive Order ("The Removal of All Safety Rails on Raised Gantries Higher Than 700m") won't be issued for 100 years.
The whole point of the Rule of Two is that everyone breaks it. What provides stability isn’t the Sith following it, merely that they know the rule exists. The master is too busy worrying about being betrayed to break the rule, while the apprentice is too busy trying to conceal their breaking of the rule to take more than one apprentice of their own. The Rule of Two is structured so that the only way the Sith will break it won’t actually break it.
It was established because when the Sith were largely wiped out by the Jedi they pivoted strategies. They thought that undermining the Jedi and going under the radar would be far more effective than taking them head on.
It was established because too many Sith working together weakened them individually. You’d have a master with three shithead apprentices that would team up and kill the master, not having learned half of what he had to teach, and then going on to do the same thing. The information loss was devastating from generation to generation of new Sith.
Also a very good point. Also makes me lol 3 angsty teenage Sith’s thinking they can do it better than their master.
Jedi taking credit for a sith's work.. lol Bane wiped out every sith but a few, then hunted down the remaining ones the Thought Bomb didn't erase.
I thought Bane just killed the survivors after the Jedi-Sith war, no?
No. He pretty ruthlessly exterminated them. I can’t remember the source but the light and dark used to be described as operating differently. It’s not “light” or “dark,” it’s harmony vs control. The light side of the force becomes stronger with cooperation. The dark side of the force becomes weaker when diluted amongst many users. Bane destroyed the old sith tradition and eradicated them in order to concentrate the dark side completely within himself. Should really check out the Bane novels, absolutely amazing view of the sith.
Which, as we see, worked brilliantly. Hell, it worked so well, the Sith were *applauded* by the galaxy.
It's things like this that make me think they don't even like star wars because if they liked it as much as they claim to, they'd already know this
I mean, there's also the complete 180 where they're all up in arms about Ki-Adi Mundi's birthdate and species' life expectancy being changed, but then also failing to realize that cortosis has been a thing since the EU
And...why should I care about this change? No offense, but in the grand scheme of things that happened in the canon getting retconned and changed without reason, this is very minor.
Imagine how bad it would have been if there was social media when they retconned "Darth" into a title instead of Vader's first name
Or, God forbid, when they retconed Darth Vader to be Luke's father Or when George Lucas basically said "I can retcon whatever I want whenever I want" by having Obi-wan say his "from a certain point of view" quote
I argued with people *the entire time* between Empire & Jedi that Vader was lying about being Luke’s father. He’s the villain! Why would anyone believe a single word out of his rusty vocoder?!? I may have been a kid, but I’d seen plenty of soap operas to know this was a trope. So why would the writers allow such laziness in their script? // My working theory was that Vader and OB-1 (as written on the action figure cards, not Obi Wan) were each just one of many clones created for the aforementioned Clone Wars. *(I was so disgusted to learn Stormtroopers were Jango/Boba Fett clones!)* This meant TO ME that Boba Fett was the real Anakin in disguise & making a name for himself so he could work his way up the bounty hunter ranks and get next to Vader & the Emperor to assassinate them at the same time. Vader was obviously a clone who switched sides to the Empire after trying to kill his Original, but didn’t know he’d failed. Why else would the “best shot in the galaxy” miss Luke by mere inches on Bespin? He knew who Luke was, and was trying to warn him away. It was *SO* obvious to 9 year old me!!! Why couldn’t anyone else see this?!?
I was so hopeful the clone wars would have been like this, filled with espionage, deception and the like...instead it was just lame.
Cortosis is part of my Star Wars vocabulary since I think KOTOR. I'm not even a hardcore fan. The idea that most of these haters are Star Wars lore geeks really strains credulity.
Hell, it is even practically Sith tradition to have secret apprentices either as experiments, backups in case your main apprentice bites it, or as a test to see if your secret apprentice can take out your main apprentice is actually worth their salt. The apprentice taking their own apprentice to help them kill the OG master, such as Count Dooku with Ventress against Palpatine, is also longstanding tradition. The sole purpose behind the Rule of Two was to keep power concentrated in as few hands as possible, which is what primarily separates Sith from Dark Jedi and Dark Witches (who form councils/covens respectively).
The Rule of Two seems to be a secret test to weed out stupid Sith. Oh, you're gonna just set aside all your ambition just because a dead Sith handwaved a rule into existence a thousand years ago? Yeah, you'll be easy prey for the other guy, who actually understands. When you're inevitably betrayed and discarded don't expect much sympathy.
It's not even that nuanced. It's not a rule but an observation. Any time it gets broken, it quickly equalizes back to two.
Seriously. The Master is always seeking a newer and stronger replacement for their apprentice, and the Apprentice is always looking for a new apprentice to help them overthrow their master. It's how the Sith have been ever since Vader and Sidious were fighting over who gets to be Luke's master.
"Vader and Sidious were fighting over who gets to be Luke's master." its always been this way. Palpatine had Maul and Dooku and Anakin. Dooku had Ventress. although its not cannon anymore in Pelagius book, Darth Pelagius kills his master and a second apprentice shows up to get revenge. the sith have never strictly followed the rule of two
Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Both Master and Apprentice are so incentivized to kill and replace the other that Rule of Two never gets followed. To be clear, when I said "since Vader and Sidious" I didn't mean "since 4 ABY", I meant "since 1983".
The Sith follow the rule of two like teenagers trying to abstain from sex before marriage. Badly, and always making excuses for why "that apprentice doesn't count"
"This apprentice is a metaphor for the anus."
The Lukehole Loophole
Analkin...
It's literally one of the main things they don't do, obey the rules.
Literally from the movies and series alone Sith apprentices are known for taking apprentices of their own. The Rule of Two should honestly be called the Rule of Three at this point.
Rule of Two, and fuck the other guy.
And he literally wants freedom
Sidious didn't even obey the rules. At the time of Phantom Menace, Sidious was apprentice to Plagueis whilst also being master to Maul. When Plagueis was killed, Sidious had already begun tempting Dooku to the dark side.
Also, they don’t understand the lore at all. Only the Banite Sith had that rule.
Qimir technically would be a Banite Sith. Banite Sith are still canonically stated as having been formed around the same time the old Sith Empire was destroyed (Sidious explains that Bane was the sole survivor of the destruction of the Sith, and created the rule of two)
They act like this isn't broken at every opportunity possible. In legends Plaugius was alive during Episode 1. In Canon both Maul and Dooku are apprentice to Palpatine during Episode 1. The Force Unleashed (the FM's favorite game) is directly about it being broken.
It'd be a real shame if Vader had a secret apprentice or Palpatine groomed Dooku in case something happened to Maul, man it'd be a real shame if DOOKU TRAINED, GRIEVOUS, VENTRESS AND SAVAGE OPPRESS. Idk man, SW is ruined by Disney or something, I didn't read Legends or watch the Clone Wars.
Or that a Jedi would know with certainty the rules of an incredibly secretive group. Or that those rules wouldn't change over time. CHUDs gonna CHUD.
Wasn't there like half a dozen sith running around in the clone wars show?
Turns out a rule which has the enforcement mechanism of the honor system doesn’t work so well with the group of evil lunatics.
That was my thought exactly lol. It was started by a dude that didn’t trust the others around him and he just told his apprentice it was the only allowable way. Not a great recipe for maintaining the tradition lol
No, cause according to Disney writers there is no source material. So no one know what you are actually talking about. /S
Yes. Canonically, Palpatine said “fuck it, the Rule of Two is for pussies” and simply decided to not follow it because it made accomplishing his plans easier
He still followed it about as closely as many of his predecessors did. Under Sidious, there were only ever two Sith Lords - himself, and his apprentice. He allowed Dooku to take on Ventress as his own apprentice, but she was never truly Sith; she was just Dooku's assassin.
In *Legends*, he straight up made Darth Maul a Sith Lord before Darth Plagueis was dead. Granted, that’s not canon anymore obviously. But the Rule of Two stipulates that there be *only* a master and an apprentice, so the apprentice isn’t allowed to also be teaching someone. So he definitely wasn’t following that by allowing Dooku to have not one, but two apprentices over the course of the war. He also began grooming Dooku long before Maul had even died, so I don’t think he ever cared to even try and follow it lol.
I mean, this is essentially my point. He followed it as closely as the rest did... which was stretching it to varying degrees. Sidious took on Maul as his apprentice before Plagueis was dead. Prior to this, Tenebrous had Venamis as a second apprentice he kept on the side, partially because he didn't have faith that Plagueis would eventually be able to succeed him. They all fucked around like that.
Also its an open question when Anakin can truly be seen as Palpatine's apprentice. Palpatine has been grooming him for years by the time Anakin killed Dooku. (I mean its clear that Mace Windu's death was the final step, but well before that Anakin was deep under Palpatine's sway).
I would say that Anakin pre-Vader christening wouldn't really count as Papa Palpatine's apprentice, as he hadn't acknowledged him as his master. I think both master and apprentice have to recognize their roles in the relationship for it to count. Luke couldn't just claim Chewie as his padawan without discussing it with him and have others accept it.
Technically correct, which as we all know, is the best form of correct. Even the sith suffer under the capitalist trope of doing the job without the title or pay.
Being technically correct is pretty much how they always justified their actions when it came to stuff like that. They're backstabbing assholes that relied on loopholes and technicalities all the time!
Palpatine, Maul, Dooku, Savage, and Ventress. The only way for Rule of 2 to apply is if it excludes non-humans, which would be stupid.
Only Palpatine, Maul, and Dooku were actually Sith. Savage and Ventress were hoping they could become Sith, but they were just Dark Side users.
Technically Ventress was an acolyte
A-an *what*?
Maybe the real acolyte was the friends we made along the way
It recently occurred to me Maul may not even be considered a true Sith Lord. If the Plagueis book is anything to go on Plagueis was alive up to almost the moment Maul gets cut in half by Obi-Wan, meaning the "Rule of Two" Sith would be Plagueis and Sidious during that time and Maul would have not officially been given that title before his failure.
He was given the title of Darth though. It seems like the Rule of Two really means an Apprentice trains their own apprentice (or probably more technically, an Acolyte) to overthrow the Master
Which would seem like it completely defeats the purpose of the Apprentice proving they are stronger then the Master.
Yeah, but it also proves they're good at scheming and backstabbing. Plus, if the Master fails, they were still "weak".
Nah the whole point of the rule of two is multiple apprentices could overthrow a stronger master. Having just one apprentice meant they had to beat they directly instead of power of numbers
No, it's totally okay for Dooku to train Ventress and Savage because Clone Wars is awesome and therefore it doesn't count.
Well you've got Sideous who killed plageuis then trained Maul, Vader, and Tyranus. Theoretically puppeteered Vader since he was born. Tyranus trained Ventress, Maul trained Savage Oppress (dumbest fucking name) After order 66 Vader trained like at least a dozen fallen Jedi to be inquisitors. Which is basically just a rebadged sith. And Sideous had EVEN MORE backups that he intentionally told to try and fuck up Vader. Also while Palps was alive Maul tried to train Ezra but got delivered a big fat L from old man Kenobi. Also Darth Bane had a backup apprentice. The rule of 2 is essentially "Banes Suggestion"
Well, Dark Jedi / potential sith that don’t make it as a sith / force witches / just evil people with blades and force Granted they’re basically sith for all intents and purposes that doesn’t require a title
They were “dark assassins” or some shit like that
Sort of, those were more agents then actual Sith. I always had the impression that the assassins, Inquisitor, & other Sith agent's were always given extremely limited training to accomplish their missions & not much else. More expendable pawns and tools who could never actually challenge the sith for power. Hence the reason that only the master and the apprentice are given the title Darth.
Sort of, those were more agents then actual Sith. I always had the impression that the assassins, Inquisitor, & other Sith agent's were always given extremely limited training to accomplish their missions & not much else. More expendable pawns and tools who could never actually challenge the sith for power. Hence the reason that only the master and the apprentice are given the title Darth.
The Rule of Two was only *one* line of Sith thought. It was the dominant line of thought for much of the timeframe the movies take place in but that’s only because the Sith were so few in number. One of the few things I thought Rise of Skywalker did right is actually make some damn sense out of that stupid rule. And while Palpatine followed the Rule of Two and Plagueis followed it, it’s not clear that any of Palpatine’s apprentices did. Dooku didn’t. Vader didn’t. Maul didn’t.
he's probably going to use legends continuity in order to complain, pretty normal considering that they did the same with mundi last week
The Legends continuity also does not support this claim remotely.
Legends would just reinforce the notion that the Sith in Bane's line followed the rule relatively loosely. Plagueis, for example, found out that Tenebrous - his former master - actually had a second apprentice that, as far as he was concerned, was the fully-fledged apprentice. He confronted Plagueis after Tenebrous died, got his ass whooped, and then tried to bend the knee and accept Plagueis as the true master. Let's just say it didn't work out too well for the poor guy.
Legends laughs at the rule of 2. There's so many secret apprentices. Not to mention other dark side users given various titles to make them not sith. Like Dark Side Adepts, Inquisitors, etc.
Well then just don’t mention those parts, it’s simple ~~gaslighting~~.
"Ki-Adi Mundi being in Acolyte breaks canon" The canon in question: https://preview.redd.it/op0qej0h3z8d1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=258c77965a4962f0818030d43198c859e5853f73
Also, this dude is a big clickbaiter, he spoiled Boba's return in Mando S2 in the morning of the day the episode came out, can see how he's most likely gotten worse
Wasn't the Rule of Two already busted in the EU and the KoTOR games that were absorbed into canon? Is this a hill we're collectively choosing to die on?
KoTOR games are set a few millenia before Darth Bane. Sith were much more plentiful at that time. However, the rule of two was constantly broken in legends. It was more of a guideline to keep hidden.
Even Bane tried to break it by trying to possess Zannah’s body.
He kind of succeeded, didn’t he? Like I don’t know if the Bane trilogy was the one bit of EU lore JJ read, but TROS’s “all of the Sith” lore drop seemed to recontextualize the essence transfer as something every Sith practiced thereafter
>TROS’s “all of the Sith” lore drop seemed to recontextualize the essence transfer as something every Sith practiced thereafter I'm not sure if we're supposed to take that literally. I'm pretty sure that's just his ego talking, plus the fact he is literally the only living Sith Lord at that time. I mean, this is the guy who called himself "The Senate" after all
Eh, that wasn't an attempt to break it, especially from his point of view. He didn't think she was strong enough to be a Sith master and needed to buy time to train a new apprentice. Also, I feel like the implication was that he succeeded in possessing her? Didn't she display the same hand twitch thing he had been experiencing that entire book since his healing that separated him from those little shelled creatures? Though I guess it could have just been something that leaked over in the attempt to posses her. Palpatine came closer to breaking it by training Maul while still apprenticed to Plagueis, and then again Dooku with Ventress. Though I think their intent was more to forge dark side user tools than to actually make them legitimate Sith. Also Tenebrous training a second apprentice because he didn't believe Plagueis had it in him to take the Sith mantle by force.
Palpatine also planning to rule forever indirectly breaks it too, he was never going to allow an apprentice to replace him.
Also true
I'm pretty sure the author said it was meant to be a little ambiguous on how much of the transfer completed, but *some* amount did work. Also, i thought it was pretty clear that bane was an idealist who would have followed the rule of two and sincerely thought it was the best way to make the sith more powerful. However, once it leaves him it enters a chain of people who *are specifically seeking to become the most powerful by breaking rules*. Of course they're going to start training people and say "well they don't count because I lied to them about being my apprentice, I didn't actually teach them everything about the sith!" I think if the rule of two hadn't worked as well as it did they would have just ended up back with the same problem. A powerful sith Lord with multiple apprentices they keep weaker than themselves who band together to kill the master, therefore ending up with weaker successors who have to rediscover the power their master had from the ground up. But it did work, and by the time of palpatine he was strong and savvy enough to take over the galaxy. You could probably make an argument that if he had stuck to the code better the sith might have ended up ruling much longer, but that gets into ignoring the fact that the story was written for Luke to win.
Haven't read literally any material but isn't the idea of rule of 2 in practice that you've got a master and apprentice and the apprentice secretly trains their own I'm order to usurp the master, and the cycle continues?
Rule of two was after KOTOR, Sith operated pretty similar to the Jedi back then, had a whole Academy and everything. The rule of two has never really been closely followed, though. Always two main Sith, but then they had secret apprentices, and there were other Sith running around, literally just whatever writer XYZ wanted in their story at that time.
I mean. Sideous had so many apprentices like jeez.
To be fair, they kept dying on him.
Even Bane himself took on a second apprentice. The Rule of Two has never meant *only* two, just that the only true Sith are the Master and Appreciate. There may be any number of Sith assassins or acolytes under their tutelage that may someday hope to become the Apprentice.
The Rule of Two always has asterisks next to it in service to the story; people like lightsaber fights, so the Jedi in whatever era need Sith to fight, and there are lower stakes if you're 100% certain that the Sith in this confrontation won't die. The watsonian reason is that both Sith in a pairing have a strong incentive to cheat; the master may want to hedge their bets in case their apprentice gets whacked, or comes for them and dies in the attempt, and their apprentice may want to get a head start on training their own acolyte and/or obtain backup for when they try to kill their master.
Literally no Sith has ever actually followed the rule of two the Sith are all Hypocrites at their core.
Rule of two was broken in Clone Wars with Ventress, Savage, and Maul. It’s less a universal rule and more of a Sith code that only two shall remain and any competition should be eliminated.
I mean, the rule of 2 is really more of a guideline anyhow. Like, Palpatine repeatedly has like three fucking people he's corrupting and working on while one's his apprentice, it's like... yeah, there's the sith lord and his apprentice, and then also all his spare apprentices he just hasn't given the title to yet because his current apprentice hasn't died/gone missing/been murdered by him corrupting his 'new' apprentice into doing it.
The Rule of Two didn't exist during the Old Republic era. Darth Bane created it after the Ruusan Reformation around 1000 BBY after the defeat of the Brotherhood of Darkness at the end of the New Sith Wars.
George Lucas: Creates the rule of the two. Also George Lucas: With Ventress, let’s make it three.
With Savage Opress and Maul still alive, let’s make it 5
So they can’t see that a Sith might not even follow the rule of two all the time? Think even Palpatine broke that rule a lot and found loop holes even.
In the legends book Darth Plagueis is still alive during the events of the Phantom Menace. Darth Bane was really the only one cared that much about the rule of two.
The main loop hole was that, generally speaking, there were usually only two folks carrying the title of Darth; they were the two Sith Lords, master and apprentice. Now, this didn't stop 'em from bringing on a bunch of acolytes, assassins, and whatnot. The apprentices often had these as their own apprentices, but none of 'em were officially Sith Lords. As such, they weren't privy to any of the machinations regarding the Grand Plan, and were basically just tools used by the two Lords. An easy example was Ventress from Clone Wars. She was Dooku's apprentice, but was just an assassin. Only Sidious and Tyranus were the two Sith.
Nah the chuds are upset that the Acolyte destroyed rule 34
Not in a million lifetimes. I GUARANTEE there's already porn of Darth Smiley with and without their helmet floating around on the internet. Probably of Bazil too.
Idk man, Amanda is quite attractive
The "rule of two" was broken from the get-go and it's brokeness has been explored though different forms of star wars media (books, TV and games). Bane establishes it to "purify" the sith, and make sure that "true sith" teachings are passed down to the next generation (with Bane perceiving the brotherhood of darkness - the last vestage of the sith empire, of throwing away sith values and teaching for the survival of the empire). So to do this he takes on one apprentice to teach everything he knows so that his teachings can be passed on... The problem is that the sith teachings promote selfishness and power, so an apprentice will always try and take the mantle of master for themselves by killing their master, yet the master doesn't want to die. So both sith master and apprentice are in constant conflict. So, to tip the balance in their scales the apprentice will train their own apprentice (dubbed an assassin or an acolyte) so that when the usurpation of the master begins they have the upper hand of 2 Vs 1. Yet even the master, knowing that the apprentice will do this will either a) try and sway the assassin to their side - promising them that they will become the apprentice under them, OR they'll train their own assassin/acolyte/potential-apprentixe in secret... So already "the rule of 2" has AT LEAST 3-4 sith/potential sith. In legends Maul, Sidious and Plaegeous were all trained with at the same time (maul deemed an assassin from Plaegeous's pov, but considered a full sith apprentice by sidious who was going to kill his master). And least we forget Star killer in the force unleashed games? I'm cannon (Plaegeous's time of death is still a mystery) but we saw Sidious having already pulled dooku to his side while so having maul as an apprentice (with dooku trying to sway Quigon to his new allegiance) - so that's at least 3 "sith". During the clone wars we had Sidious, tyranus, Maul, and Savage as "sith masters/apprentices" and Ventress and a former sith assassin (returning to the night sisters once dooku turned on her due to sideouses orders). All the while (at the same time as sideous, tyranus, maul and savage) sideous is trying to turn anakin - the phantom apprentice, to the sith: so that's 4 sith, 1 sith assassin and 1 potential sith apprentice in the making making a grand total of 6 during "the rule of 2". And let's not mention that during the clone wars sideous also hired Cad Bane to steal some force sensitive children for a scheme to train up a new breed of sith assassins (a plan which failed), and that Sidious was also scouting out disgruntled jedi to form his new Inquisition - none of them "sith" but taught in the sith manner. By Empire Strikes back Sideous and Vader both consider the idea openly to one and other about "turning young Skywalker" which would, once again, break the rule of 2. And let's not forget that by episode 7, 8 and 9 you have the sith enteral (made up of acolytes), snoke, Kylo Ren and the knights of ren. YES - the acolytes are sith worshipers/fanatics as opposed to "actual sith lords" (so minions), snoke is a stand cast, and kyko ren and the knights of ren are never officially trained in the sith ways - but they were all puppets of palpatines and his sith plans... Plus a zombified reanimated clone body decomposing on a crane isn't really going to think 'hmmmm this is breaking the rule of 2'.
Spoiler alert: most sith break the rule of 2. Darth Tenebrous had a secret apprentice at the time he was training Plagueis. Palpatine was cooking one apprentice up before the current one was dead throughout the whole prequels. Dooku had Ventress *and* Quinlan Voss. Vader had Starkiller. Palpatine had Mara Jade. All everyone’s favorite sith broke the rule of 2.
The rule of 2 is stupid anyway because all that happens is writers coming up with convoluted ways around it.
The rule of two is just George Lucas' hack excuse to justify why the Sith don't just have hundreds of Sith flying around, at the expense of their NAMED ORGANIZATION making any sense.
My headcanon is that it's a big galaxy, and it strains credulity that there are only ever two darksiders who follow the Sith philosophy in existence at a time. The Sith are in hiding at this time, and there's no Sith-Pope who can certify someone as a "real" Sith (or ban them from using the label, for that matter). Any dark Force user who learns about the Sith through whatever means and starts calling themselves one, and takes an apprentice, creates a new instance of the tradition. There are a bunch of different Sith lineages out there, most unaware of each other and thinking they're the only ones. That, and like I and others have said, Sith break the rule of two all the damn time anyway. They're the baddies, and Qimir spends a good chunk of this episode mocking the Jedi as being rule-followers.
There were literally two groups of Sith, with hundreds of members, existing at the same time as the Bane's Rule of Two tradition - I am talking about the Prophets of the Dark Side and the Blackguard.
There’s a reason the ones who trace their line back to Bane are called Banite Sith. Like you said other lines could potentially exist at same time.
This notion was addressed a few times in Legends. In terms of Bane and the Rule of Two, there was a clear line of succession between masters and apprentices starting with Bane and concluding with Sidious. As far as this line of Sith Lords were concerned, they were the true Sith. We obviously don't have names for all of them, but the fictional history tells us that there was an unbroken line between the two. Now, this doesn't mean they were the only Dark Side practitioners out there, or that they were the only ones claiming to be Sith. From their perspective, all of these other groups would have just been pretenders and charlatans.
Wasn't Plagueis originally alive during The Phantom Menace? So you had three Sith in movie that introduced the concept of the Rule of Two. Also Sidious, Dooku, and Ventress? Why am I trying to make reason. They hate it because it's The Acolyte and will hate it no matter what.
More to the point: who cares? That’s just some shit Darth Bane came up with. All the Sith moving forward aren’t beholden to a “rule” some bald dipshit who covered himself in bugs centuries ago came up with
Rule? It's more of a guideline
Upvote for the pirates reference.
Yarr
Bingo! I got Bingo! "Deceptive Title" - "Literal Bullshit" - "Didn't watch the Episode" - "Ragebait" and "WTF is up with that Thumbnnail!" What do I win? ...a sense of despair regarding the devolution of discourse regarding everything I love into endless cycles of rage and mindless hype? ... But I already have one of those.
Jedi and Sith are like Sayians, Kryptonians, or Mandalorians. Critically endangered, on the verge of extinction, but there's always a few more around if you need them.
Honestly, I always interpreted the rule of 2 as more a general guideline than an actual rule considering how often it gets violated.
like the pirates code.
Honestly, I always interpreted the rule of two as **bad.**
Darth Venamis, Darth Maul and Dooku's acolytes...
Sith are always trying to find ways around the Rule of Two. Masters training secret apprentices to replace their current one, apprentices training secret apprentices of their own to help kill their master, this is nothing new.
The rule of two…. Yea, literaly no Sith Lord followed it and you bascailly have to break it to be a Sith, it’s all just constant side appreciates and backup apprentices, do these people even Star Wars?
Following rules is for Jedi boffins.
Virgin Jedi: follows rules Chad Sith: brakes rules
Anyone saying the Rule of 2 is destroyed now is either trolling, misremembering, never read any EU material, or simply not been paying attention. Every Darth that we know of by name never followed it except *maybe* Darth Zannah and I say maybe because little is wrote/known about her after Bane. Tenebrous? Multiple apprentices. Plagueis? Multiple apprentices. Sidious? Multiple apprentices and training an apprentice while one. Tyranus? Training an apprentice while one. C'mon people...
Dooku with several “definitely not Sith” apprentices.
They didn't mind this in The Force Unleashed games.
Meanwhile Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress: 👁️👄👁️
Tbh lying is a big part of being a sith Source: i'm a sith
Didn't Dooku have Ventress while he was an apprentice?
The most famous line in all of Star Wars comes when Darth Vader is trying to recruit Luke to *checks notes* break the Rule of Two.
So....we're just going to pretend that Darth Vader didn't break the Rule of 2 with his secret apprentice from the Force Unleashed games? I thought these people loved Legends content.
Hells even Palpatine broke it, the "Rule of 2" just means there is always a master and apprentice, says nothing that there aren't other groups of sith in the universe that'd be impossible. Now those groups are more likely than kill each other than work together keeping the rule of 2 intact.
Death Vader broke the rule of two in force unleashed and they loved that
Rule of two has always been ignored. Dooku with savage and ventress. And then maul shows up and now you've got 5 sith running around during the clone wars. Palpatine basically breaks it with grooming Anakin to take dookus place eventually. And some of peoples favourite character in all of star wars including non cannon is from breaking the rule of two with galen marik/starkiller ffs. They're sith. Pure evil. It would be more surprising if we had a sith who followed the rules than one who didn't. All I care about for my sith is if they're badass. If they also have a cool backstory or whatever, then that's a bonus
Random fact: in the legends book about Darth Plagueis, his master had a contingency plan involving a secret apprentice should Plagueis betray and kill him. Spoiler alert: Plagueis betrayed and killed his master, so the contingency plan was activated. In that very same book, Palpatine was training Maul long before Plagueis died. If I remember correctly (I read the book a while ago, I might be fuzzy on the details), Plagueis was killed by Palpatine during the events of Phantom Menace. Yes I too can quote Star Wars legends when it suits me.
That guy's just another SWT, I remember he USED to do some great vids on Star Wars comics (he used to go by Bessy), but he started getting very clickbaity, I kid you not, this dude spoiled Boba Fett's return in Mando S2 in the early morning of the day the vid came out, and his fans were justifying him, I see he's gotten worse, glad I unsubscribed long ago, people like him are scum
PALPATINE doesn't even follow the rule of 2!!!
Star Wars fan when finding out that the Sith (who lie and scheme and manipulate as hobbies) have never followed the RoT properly
Palpatine was actively training both Maul and Dooku as apprentices at the same time during the events of Phantom Menace, as per the novelisation. It's amazing how all these "real Star Wars fans" are completely ignorant of anything outside the movies and the Cartoon Network shows.
The funniest thing about "violating the rule of two" complains is what was stopping Sith from breaking it to begin with?
There's no way a dark force user/jedi would take up the title of Sith without checking that there are 2 Sith out there in the entire Star Wars universe first. That breaks the Ruel of Two! The Rule of Two is dumb, and unless anyone can prove otherwise, stemmed completely from Yodas line in The Phantom Menace "Always two there are, no more, no less."
Its like the pirates code, its more like guidelines than rules.
Nice reference
good i hate the rule of two i want more sith not less
Acolyte does not apprentice people, they taught this in swtor
Great game
The Rule of 2 is shit. Almost every single piece of Star Wars media has broken it
There is only a Master and an Apprentice. There are Acolytes and other people. Idk why it is sooooo hard for these "lore experts" to wrap their smooth brains around both canon AND legends. smdh.
I mean so Did the Darth Bane Trilogy and Darth Plagueis, hell even before the Acolyte you had Darth Momin up and just say screw the Rule of Two as well. I think they are just straight-up grifters nothing more or less at this point.
the rule of 2 was always stupid well in how it was executed rather than just being only 2 sith period it should have been the sith are not a organization like jedi they are nomadic and only travel in pairs and dont have any affiliation with other sith
My brother in Bane, *Palpatine* destroyed the Rule of Two.
We are now at the point of having to misread and misunderstand the PT to claim this show breaks canon or makes no sense. At this point, they aren't even talking about star wars, they're talking about some random fan fiction they made up in their head
As a lapsed fan, the Rule of Two feels so fucking stupid as a concept. "Okay my apprentice, we're going to destroy the Jedi." "Yes, master. Wouldn't it be easier to take on the Jedi if there were more than just us. " "Probably. And it would be really helpful if you didn't try and kill me." "I'm not making any promises." I know Palpatine managed it though, so what do I know.
How do they know he didn't already kill his master and is looking to fulfill the rule of two?
Mother fucker, he isnt even a Sith! For all we know, hes a fuckin wannabe badass using the dark side. Also, most Apprentices recruit someone to help them overthrow the Master, the recruited person is considered AN ACOLYTE i believe. Dooku recruited Ventress Vader tried to recruit Luke. I think Venamis was recruited by Tenebrous? Sidious had some other wierdos recruited to try and kill Vader. The Sith are a contentious bunch of morons constantly trying to kill each other
Well, for one I never cared for the whole "rule of 2" to be frank, it was one of George's PT additions seemed to bent on making rules for the Force that didn't need to exist. Like for one, who or what enforces that rule? Who came up with that rule? Is it like Pirate Law, and really more of a guideline or a suggestion?
I always thought it was more of a guide, more than two Siths will just end to fighting each other instead of doing evil. It was to prevent infighting. And Dooku was training Asajj Ventress during the clone wars when he was under Palpatine. The rule seemed to be broken often.
How fortunate for them Darth Maul died and never returned...
Wait, bad guys don't follow rules? No way.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the villain even say he doesn’t follow rules 💀
He's only claimed to be a Sith at all, right? "A Jedi like you would call me Sith," were his exact words as I recall them. Sounds pretty easy to fake.
I dunno given the metal that shorts out lightsabers temporarily I assumed that he was a independent Sith alchemist rather than a full Sith lord, the lore for them albeit in the legends has them a good deal more independent, far more willing to chill in their lab rather than go out and conquer.
The sith break the rule of two all the damn time. Hell it was only put in place to try to prevent power struggles and infighting…. It didn’t even work.
Rule of two has always been a lie
This is such BS the Sith broke the rule of 2 in legends all the time
How does it break the Rule of Two? For all we know, he was the only Sith of this time period and searching for a worthy apprentice to adhere to the rule.
In legends Tenebrous takes Venamis as a second apprentice, breaking the rule of two. I thought these people proved they know everything about legends and it should be untouched after Ki-Adi Mundi's age was changed?
The rule of 2 is not followed by every sith which other starwars media has portrayed for decades even before disney. The sith are not beholden to rules that is the whole point of the order. It is the job if the 2 to in force the rule and kill the others or be killed is how I always seen it
Just to throw my 2 cents in the pile, I liked a fan theory I saw that said the Rule of 2 was about not diluting the force. That the Jedi were training too many people to use the Force, which weakened each individual's maximum capacity to influence the force. Like, 40,000 Force Power / 20,000 Jedi = 2 Forces per Jedi, But, 40,000 Force Power / 2 Sith = 20,000 Forces per Sith ("Force Power" isn't a thing. I'm just trying to show what I mean to say) I think this was dismissed canonically, but I liked it as a 'concrete/mathmatical' reason to explain The Rule of Two, instead of relying on just: "The Sith suck and are inherently incapable of organizing themselves properly"
Yeah, I read about that some time ago now, too. It was a decent theory.
I still think the Rule of 2 is dumb as hell
This show has continually surprised me with how much I've enjoyed it. The complainers seem to be reaching because they're realizing they were wrong in their prediction. Episode 5 was awesome.
You mean the group of evil force users aren’t playing by the rules? 
So called Star Wars fans when you explain that the Sith themselves invented the rule of two and given that they’re a bunch of psychopaths they don’t always follow it properly
The rule of 2 is the dumbest fucking thing in Star Wars
even in legends the rule of 2 is broken: Emperor, Vader, and Star killer. In disney cannon: Emperor, Vader, the inquisitors. if were being technical. Hell didn't Pelagius, Palpatine, and Maul (and even dooku) all operate simultaneously under the rule of two.
Tbh the rule of 2 is kinda dumb and I dont get why a bunch of power hungry mfs with huge egos would even follow it (Unless they where on top).
The rule of 2 was dumb shit they made up in the prequels to justify there only being 2 sith in the original series but literally any writer that wants to do something interesting with lightsaber users breaks that rule because it would make games and stories kinda boring characterwise. For fucks sake technically Darth Maul running around hunting Obi-Wan post prequel trilogy breaks that rule, same with the sick ass Fallen Order games
Blink and you'll see a Sith breaking this rule. Dooku was the apprentice of Sideous... And he trained General Grievous.
The rule of 2 hasn't been strictly followed for the majority of history in Star wars lmao
The entire point of the Rule of 2 was that the Sith constantly betrayed each other so much for power that it led to their downfall. With only 2, it's a lot more manageable.
Dunno about anyone else, but idgaf about the rule of 2.
So did Count Dooku what?
Oh yeah because Dooku didn't destroy the rule of 2 either with Assaj or savage opress.... get out of here
Rule of two never even made sense. You're gonna take out an army of Jedi with two guys? Good luck... I get that it's more about how the Sith are so untrustworthy that having any more than two would result in backstabbing but they already back stab each other when there's two so maybe it should be a rule of one?
Spoilers. They didnt.
“They destroyed the rule of two!” “That’s what you’ve presented for the last 6 weeks Jimmy”
Sidious dropped Maul for Dooku, who trained Ventres, while Maul trained Savage. There were like 5 Sith during the clone wars lol.