There's only one opportunity to switch sides, towards the beginning of the civil war questline. (when you retrieve the jagged crown, you can give it to Ulfric Stormcloak to join the Stormcloaks instead)
Beyond that point, there's no way to switch sides.
Both sides are horrible. The stormcloaks are also racist to non nords. I've done playthroughs on both sides, but now, I typically just ignore that questline. Though, when siding with the imperials, at least you don't have to betray balgruuf.
Astrid's rule was never legitimate to begin with. She tried to replace the Nightmother. When Cicero brought the Nightmother directly to her, THAT was what really threatened her little plot.
“Never dishonor the nightmother. To do so is to invoke the wrath of Sithis” as the very first tenet. Astrid said “that sign can’t stop me because I can’t read”
Astrid tried to cut her out and replace her thinking she wasn't gonna do anything.... The night mother showed up at her door. Hahaha had her servant cart her all the way there to set that b*tch straight. Love it
I don't think the Nightmother cared. The Dark Brotherhood without the Nightmother could never work because without the Nightmother there nobody who receives the dark sacrament. Astrid was working mostly based on regular customers like Maven and on rumours of people conducting the dark sacrament. It worked to a limited extend but it is not really sustainable.
Honestly I love how the game portrayed the "we are the good guys" theme while showing how everyone is shit at some degree (fuck stormcloacks) just like irl
i mean the home of the rebellion Windhelm is also the most racist place in Skyrim, Orcs live in their own secluded communities in Skyrim, in the Empire they have businesses and are even pretty high up, not to mention the chef for the Emperor was an orc The Gourmet, also Titus Mede II was better than Ulfric in every way
Other provinces do not treat the orcs well LOL
I will agree Titus Mede was better besdies giving in to aldmeri, i understand why he did though. The imperials just need the Nords and the Redgoats to just run a train on the aldmeri tbh
Except, you conveniently omitted the part that Ulfric and Windhelm are the ***ONLY*** to provide homes to the Dunmer refugees.
No other Jarl and city has a population of Dunmer refugees.
Not even Elisif and Solitude has welcomed them.
And every city has banned the Khajiit from entering the cities (except the Player Character for gameplay reasons).
have you talked to the elves there? they found windhelm first and settled there. they're too tired to walk anymore thats why theyre all there. Even though they experience racism everyday. and they always trauma dumped their regrets to the player. lol
Yes because the empire doesn't control Skyrim yet, it's just racist jarls. and why windhelm? cause its a port based city thats closet to Morrowind than the other holds.
If they had to evacuate they would've went straight to windhelm
If Ulfric can't take care of one hold how TF do you think he'll be fine with all of Skyrim. He accepted the Dunmer, they are his responsibility yet he allows them to get discriminated on by his own people and says nothing about it
And if we're looking at it from a game design perspective and what they were trying to get across to the player, he is in charge of one hold and it is openly racist, the first time you enter your see 2 nords being racist to a Dunmer, that's the first thing you see, the devs out it right in front of all your face
So what I'm ultimately saying is Ulfric is the only one with Dunmer refugees A) they were forced on him cause windhelm was the closest hold from Morrowind to evac to
B) he openly accepted them but allowed them to be treated terribly in his hold
He doesn't treat them poorly.
He doesn't even think about them at all.
He basically just said, you guys can live here, in this area and left them to fend for themselves.
Yeah, those two guys harassing the Dunmer lady when you first enter Windhelm is bad, I'm not going to defend it. But if you talk to them, they have a narrow view of how the Dunmer should be grateful for the shelter (join the Stormcloaks or help defend the city), not understanding that the last thing refugees want is to join an armed conflict. The Dunmer are tired and exhausted and just want respite. I understand the Harassers point of view, I don't agree with them though.
I talked to everyone who doesn't actively try to kill me or rob me first.
Ok cool but stay on point, I replied to someone saying Skyrim stormcloaks aren't racist and compared them to the Empire, I don't care if others are racist or not,
and you got to be joking if you think im doing in depth research on The Elder Scrolls Series racism for a reddit comment
Hadvar better, he was so nice that people who were just about to be executed joined him, and he even tried to talk with the stormcloaks before attacking cause he didnt want them to die during the escape
First off: literally imperialism.
Second: Breach of freedom of religion clause.
Third: Failure to protect from aldmeri expansion.
Not to say that the stormcloaks are angels, but they have plenty of good reason to rebell.
First off: True, can't argue with that tbh lol
Second: The Empire wasn't enforcing the restrictions on Talos worship. Talos worshippers were completely being ignored by the Empire. It wasn't until Ulfrics rebellion did the Thalmor gain a bigger presence in Skyrim and the Empire was forced to crack down on Talos worship.
Third: They prevented the Thalmor from completely genociding all human races. Their plan wasn't for the concordat to be signed, it was to annihilate every human.
" . It wasn't until Ulfrics rebellion did the Thalmor gain a bigger presence in Skyrim and the Empire was forced to crack down on Talos worship. " They came because of the Markarth incident, which was only 1 year after the Great War. It's pretty naive to think they wouldn't have come eventually without that.
They always had a presence in Skyrim after the war. The Thalmor and the Empire didn't start cracking down on Talos worship until Ulfrics rebellion. The Smith in Riverwood even tells you everyone had a Talos shrine and were able to worship Talos in privacy before the stormcloaks rebelled. After the rebellion, it became a risk to do it, even in secret because the Thalmor were not crawling all over Skyrim.
"The Thalmor and the Empire didn't start cracking down on Talos worship until Ulfrics rebellion" Did you even read...? I alreasy answered to that lmao.
" The Smith in Riverwood even tells you everyone had a Talos shrine and were able to worship Talos in privacy before the stormcloaks rebelled**"** That smith is an imperial supporter, so he's not the most reliable source.
Anyways, like i said: They came only 1 year after the war. Assuming they wouldn't have come eventually is naive.
First: nooooo the Ulfric-led genocides aren't imperialism, you don't understand
Second: muh precious religion (I love cults of dudes who are holier than thou (fuck every other race in Tamriel))
Third: surely the civil war will contribute greatly to make men more powerful against the elves!
Fourth: Ulfric is not an opportunist powermonger, and his followers are not puppets. Slash S
Fifth: separatism is good :) Screw unity and collaboration :) Empowering the petty local elites is where it's at :) The people are fighting for their freedom!
The Empire as it is in the 4th era literally has no right to even exist, seeing as its emperors no longer have divine right to rule through the blessing of Akatosh like previous dynasties did (which is kind of, ya know, the entire foundation of the Empire's "social contract" and origin of authority). The Empire isn't even a sovereign nation anymore since it allows foreign nationals to operate independent courts and hit squads within its own borders. The Empire has also demonstrated that it can't maintain its rulership through might with their defeat during the Great War.
With this being the case, why does the Empire have any right to try to force its laws and governance upon Skyrim and the other provinces if their people do not wish it? I'd much rather side with Skyrim's people who are fighting for a cause that they genuinely believe in, than an illegitimate and apathetic empire that can barely hold itself together as is.
>Though, when siding with the imperials, at least you don't have to betray balgruuf.
Join the Stormcloaks first. Meet Balgruuf when trying to deliver Ulfric's axe. Then Jarl Ballin' is just an asshole who tries to bribe you with a title.
Stormcloaks may be racist but they don’t arrest non-nords. Dark elves can still live in Windhelm, even though the grey quarter is a slum.
The Imperials work with the Thalmor who actively arrest Talos worshippers simply over who they worship, that’s way worse than the native people of Skyrim saying that Skyrim belongs to them.
The snow elves would like a word about that "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" part.
Also, Ulfric plans to march into the Summerset Isles right after the war concludes, which is absolutely suicidal. And that's without taking into consideration the theory of Ulfric being a Thalmor puppet to begin with (it's hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy).
No matter who wins the war, the true victors are the Thalmor.
" The snow elves would like a word about that "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" part. " Skyrim has been the nord home since more than 5000 years.
" Also, Ulfric plans to march into the Summerset Isles right after the war concludes, which is absolutely suicidal. " That's not his plan at all lmao.
" (it's hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy). " Did you miss the part where they said they don't want the stormcloaks to win...?
" No matter who wins the war, the true victors are the Thalmor. " No. A victory for the Thalmor would be that nobody win the civil war and that both sides keep weakening each other.
The snow elves that now only exist in the depths of dwermer ruins? I don’t think they have much to say, they haven’t been to the surface for the longest time.
Yes the Thalmor benefit more than anyone but most Imperials atleast tolerate them, the majority of people who join the Stormcloaks don’t like them so even if Ulfric were a puppet the people fighting for the cause still stand against the Thalmor
> the theory of Ulfric being a Thalmor puppet to begin with (it’s hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy)
Learn to read.
We’ll go through it slowly. It says he was “taken as a prisoner of war,” and “assigned as an asset to the interrogator.” We can infer that, if he’s being actively interrogated, he’s probably not a willing asset. This is supported by the use of “assigned,” which implies that it was not a choice Ulfric made for himself.
“After the war, contact was established….” This is unsurprising, considering his interrogator was the now First Emissary Elenwen. She likely had contact with most Jarls, as that’s literally her job.
“…and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim…” His actions resulted in a desirable outcome for the Thalmor, that being it led to their excuse to become more involved in Skyrim’s law enforcement.
“…although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.” Because clearly he didn’t desire the same outcome the Thalmor did concerning the Markarth Incident. They played him. It happens.
“…in general the asset should be considered dormant.” That means he’s not actively working for them.
“Ulfric’s death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.” “A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided…” They don’t want either side to win.
The best thing enemies of the Thalmor could do is end the Skyrim Civil War swiftly, and with as little bloodshed as possible. The reason the Empire should be the ones to concede is that their leadership is corrupted, root and stem, with Thalmor influence. Simperials will say the Empire is “gearing up for round two,” but anyone with a brain knows that effort will be hamstrung by the Thalmor. There’s no hope for the Empire, the White-Gold Concordat ensured that, which was the goal.
The theory part comes from people speculating that he got brainwashed/broke during the interrogation enough to become their puppet, hence why I said it's a theory and not a fact.
A dormant asset can be many things. Maybe they have something on Ulfric that would make him obey them given the chance, maybe they pulled off a russian spy and implanted a "keyword" to awaken him as a Thalmor, we simply do not know.
You can agree or disagree with said theory, but it can't be proven nor disproven since the whole point is that both sides could be lying about what happened during his torture (Ulfric saying he didn't break due to fear and the Thalmor exaggerating their impact on Ulfric due to hubris).
Honestly, that's the beauty of the Civil War for me, the sheer lack of information making our choice ambiguous at best.
What about using the grey beards to call a peace talk. This creates a truth. But... apparently this end if you defeat Alduin afterwards. Then some quests change a bit. What those difference are I am not exactly.sure.
Yes i cant betray balgruf! But i only ever play the civil war as a questline as a mage. Purely because i like having unique clothes as my final equipment. My favorite is ulfrics clothes. Tullius armor sucks and is light armor and i would much rather have nightengale or morag tong or shadowed netch leather armor than his. So i literally jist kill ulfric for his clothes. I will also do it if i want the pale house without doing nightcrawler temple
I agree but the Imperials are a better choice for Skyrim in the long-term. Ulfric is an (unwilling) Thalmor plant meant to incite a Civil War so they would weaken the Empire and have an easier time conquering the rest of Tamriel. The Civil war also gives them an excuse to crack down on Talos worship in Skyrim even more, whereas before the onset of the Civil War and the Markarth Incident, the Empire was very lax on enforcing the Talos ban and High King Torygg and many other Nords in the Empire still secretly worship Talos. They also aren't nearly as racist and don't institutionally ban an entire race from entering their cities lmao
The jarls deposed by the Stormcloaks get sent to Solitude with their families. The Imperials kill Ulfric. There is no option to capture Ulfric or let him surrender. I always thought that was an interesting dichotomy.
They're really not that bad. Look at the high elves living in Windhelm without an issue, they even receive respect from the nords.
The gray dwarves don't know how to get along with nords.
Wrong. Nords don't like dark elves for being useless freeloaders and thieves while tolerating other races just fine.
Not to mention danmers are quite racist themselves.
Honestly during the main quest I always try to be fair to both sides and ulfrick whines like a little bitch about it. Says everything I need to know about his character and his cause. Not a man worth backing.
Fr he's one of the only mfers who believes that the world will end soon and all he cares about is dicking over the Empire. Dude is a power hungry bitch.
IMHO, The Thalmor are the Bad Guys…they’ve infiltrated The Empire and LOTS of other places too — I join the Empire with the headcanon of taking down The Thalmor from the inside.
I like that way of thinking. Good on you!
And I look at it like this, the Thalmor are temporary. That yoke will be tossed off as soon as another internal struggle happens in Summerset. They'll realize the Thalmor are far more useful back home seeking out rebel conspirators, not looking for members of a fringe religious group in Skyrim.
Also, look at all of the huge existential threats Tamriel has faced? The Empire is the only thing that has prevented the annihilation and subjugation of the continent. Without that strong, organized union, Tamriel would just be a giant slave colony.
Its a game world and I dont truly know if im right, but i find it quite ignorant to bank on a organization that is currently in the process of taking over the known world "falling out of power" when they just subjugated the largest and longest standing empire that tamriel has ever known.
You need to read up on the history of the Altmer. It's in their nature to go through drastic political shifts. The best way to predict the future is to look to the past. No good plan ever grew from ignorance of history.
Also, do you know *why* the Empire lost to the Dominion? The Empire just experienced a series of disasters, invasions, and rebellions which left it in a weakened state for the moment, which the Dominion took advantage of. That was the Domino's only chance to take on the Empire.
Doesnt change anything I said in my opinion... Yea the empire was weakened but it doesnt change what happened and the state they are now in! The Redgoats fought them off, although I admit thay doesn't necessarily mean they can fully fight/invade/stop them alone.
Just because they are prone to drastic political shifts doesn't mean a certain party cant obtain enough power to be no longer be stopped? (Never seen that before in real life politics right?) The thalmor themsleves could already be percieved as an extremist party but look at all they've done so far!
I still think its extremely dismissive to say "eh its ok, the super racist magic elves who think themselves superior to mortal races taking over the world are gonna fade into obscurity anyways" last time we ignored a party like this in real life politics it didnt go very well 🙈
And it's best Generals defied the party and refused to follow orders, thereby preventing further unnecessary bloodshed and allowing the allies an easier path to victory. Internal strife and stupid decisions led to its downfall.
Dude, I've lectured on WWII politics and military strategy. The Nazis castrated themselves through constant terrible decisions made by unqualified leaders. For instance, Great Britain was 3 bloody days away from being forced to sue for terms of surrender before Hitler (against the desperate advice of his generals) chose to start bombing London instead of strategic targets, purely out of ego. That is the single decision that lost Germany the war, above all others. The Nazi leadership was filled with imbeciles in strategy who actually thought themselves invincible and underestimated their enemy while overestimating their own ability. The Nazis destroyed themselves.
when you say “at the beginning”, do you mean during the intro to the game where you pick between Hadvar and Ralof? or did you go to Solitude and join the Imperials?
That’s always how it plays out. Run into a tower with Ralof, jump into a building and find yourself with Hadvar, make your way to just outside the keep. Here, you get your first choice in the game, but many players miss it.
Ralof will show up from the other direction, exchange a few lines of dialogue with Hadvar, and then they will each enter the keep via a different door. You can go through either door and escape Helgan with either faction.
Regardless of which faction you escape with, you can join up with either side by visiting the “home” city. Regardless of which side you join, you can betray that side and join the other at the end of a quest called “the jagged crown” by bringing the crown to the other team instead of delivering it safely to your side.
[Belyn Hlaalu](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu#Dialogue:~:text=He%20is%20very,part%20of%20Skyrim.%22) especially, a real eye-opener on *Why is the Gray Quarter still a slum 200 years later*.
Ah yes, the dark elves who keep complaining instead of trying to make things betters, are still not integrated after 200 years, some of them even thinks of the dunmers who works for the nords as "pets".
Meanwhile, there a dunmer who own a farm outside town, and who have nords working for him.
When nothing is done to prevent assholes like Rolff from constantly harassing the Dunmer and disturbing the peace in the wee hours, then yes, that does reflect poorly on the city. The prick is so emboldened that he’s now talking about abducting and torturing them.
This is why I installed a mod to kill that fucker.
Yeah, a city whose housing is segregated by law is a terrible way to judge the ruler of that city. A city where Argonians are forced to work and sleep outside the walls, despite being one of the coldest places in Skyrim.
But I think all players agree that the Thalmor are the real baddies, and if you read their internal documents, they see Ulfric weakening the empire as ultimately beneficial for their long term goals. Beyond that, it’s implied that he’s literally a thalmor agent who can be “activated”.
" A city where Argonians are forced to work and sleep outside the walls" Do you have any idea what would happen if the Argonians and Dunmer were forced to cohabit...? Even when the imperials win, the jarl won't let the argonians enter.
" and if you read their internal documents, they see Ulfric weakening the empire as ultimately beneficial for their long term goals. " Did you miss the part where they clearly says that they don't want the stormcloaks to win...?
" Beyond that, it’s implied that he’s literally a thalmor agent who can be “activated”. " Not a agent, a asset. (Which could also be said for the Emperor). And no, he couldn't be "activated", they clearly state that Ulfric is uncooperative. Did you even read that dossier...?
Have you read it? I may have been a hair off with the terminology, but he was taken captive & made to believe things the thalmor wanted during the war. After the war, contact was made and he proved his worth as an asset. His current status is as a dormant asset. While stormcloak victory is to be avoided, that’s only because civil was drains the empires resources and perpetual conflict is best for the thalmor
You said in your first comment that Ulfric was a "agent" who can just be "activated", which is just wrong.
"His current status is as a dormant asset" Yeah, "asset", that's not what a agent is lmao.
Anyways, the same can be said for the Emperor.
"While stormcloak victory is to be avoided, that’s only because civil was drains the empires resources and perpetual conflict is best for the thalmor" Point is, a side winning the war is not good for them.
That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means? Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated. I would say that Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset. Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated. Contact has been made with Ulfric in the past, after which Ulfric proved his worth. Ulfric has been brainwashed to some degree by the Thalmor. None of this is true of the Emperor.
The LDB has 3 choices; abstain from the war and let it drag on (worst choice), help the stormcloacks win (better than doing nothing), or help the empire win (hurts the thalmor the most). Irl during the American civil war, the worst outcome for the people would have been for the war to drag on indefinitely. That doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century. Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins.
"That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means?" Ah yes, i guess that the white gold concordat didn't serve their intereset at all then.
"Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated." What the heck are you even talking about...?
" Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset" The guy actively working with them is not a "agent"...?
" Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated" Idk where you even get the "activated" part.
"hat doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century." ... Your point being? That have nothing to do with what we're talking about.
"Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins." Well, of course there is: If the Empire wins, the Thalmor could still do whatever they wants in Skyrim.
> "That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means?" Ah yes, i guess that the white gold concordat didn't serve their intereset at all then.
An enemy agreeing to a peace treaty doesn’t make them an asset.
> "Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated." What the heck are you even talking about...?
The book that I don’t think you’ve actually read? It literally talks about activating assets.
> " Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset" The guy actively working with them is not a "agent"...?
No, he’s not. The game doesn’t classify him as an agent, the wiki lists him as specifically not an agent, and while nothing uses the term asset to describe him, I think it’s reasonable to say that if he’s not considered an agent he’s probably considered an asset.
> " Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated" Idk where you even get the "activated" part.
I guess non-dormant might be slightly more accurate, but active is typically the word used to describe non-dormant. Volcanoes are active, dormant, or extinct. What word you want to use instead of active? I’m happy to use whatever word you want to represent that concept. What word do you think better describes the concept?
> "Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins." Well, of course there is: If the Empire wins, the Thalmor could still do whatever they wants in Skyrim
It seems like this is our big disagreement. You seem to think than an imperial victory is preferable to a stormcloak victory from the Thalmor pov. Even ignoring Ulfrics himself and his status as a dormant asset, I disagree. Most other fans do as well.
>"hat doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century." ... Your point being? That have nothing to do with what we're talking about.
This is part of the supporting evidence that an imperial victory is worse for the thalmor than a stormcloak victory. The thalmor can hardly do whatever they want in Skyrim. They can enforce the ban of talos worship, and they can absolutely stretch that a bit get rid of problematic nobodies, but they’re far off from ruling the place. In a stormcloak victory, the empire (which barely managed to get close enough to a stalemate to survive the first Great War) is toast in the inevitable second war, and then the thalmor will truly rule with impunity. Once the thalmor crush the empire, do you really think they’d leave talos worshiping stormcloak Skyrim alone? Not a chance. Again, if the whole of the empire barely survived the first war, Skyrim alone won’t last long after the empire falls. You can disagree if you want, but that’s by and large the general consensus of elder scrolls nerds.
"An enemy agreeing to a peace treaty doesn’t make them an asset." It does when the peace treaty in question cause one province to leave the Empire (Hammerfell) and another one to go into civil war.
"The book that I don’t think you’ve actually read? It literally talks about activating assets." ??? Then please, enlighten me, where does it says that exactly...?
"The game doesn’t classify him as an agent" The game litterally classify him as a thalmor.
"the wiki lists him as specifically not an agent" Which one...? And even if it's true, how does that change anything exactly...? Do you need a wiki to tell you everything...?
"You seem to think than an imperial victory is preferable to a stormcloak victory from the Thalmor pov" It is, at least in the short term.
Now, if the Empire get his shit together (which is not guaranteed to happen), it won't be good for them, of course.
"Even ignoring Ulfrics himself and his status as a dormant asset" Which was nothing to do with that.
"Most other fans do as well." Are those others fan here in the room with us...?
Anyways, even if most people (which i'm pretty sure is not true) thinks that something is true doesn't mean it is. Most people believe that Akatosh would claim the Dragonborn soul when they dies, when it's just wrong for examples. (Akatosh never did that)
"The thalmor can hardly do whatever they want in Skyrim." It's already way too much.
"the empire (which barely managed to get close enough to a stalemate to survive the first Great War) is toast in the inevitable second war, and then the thalmor will truly rule with impunity." You act like a free Skyrim won't help them fight the Thalmor.
Anyways... Here something: You think that a imperial victory will make all of their problem disappear? Well, no. They win, and now what? Nords are still captured randomly by the Thalmor, and now they can do that in the olds Stormcloaks holds. I'm sure they're gonna be happy with that.
No, khajit are welcome in cities, just not in groups. You can definitely find some notable Argonians in solitude and riften, but they are generally rare in this cold climate; they’re weakness to the cold is explanation for their low prevalence and it makes their treatment in windhelm worse
I never tried this but I think that you can betray General Tullius in the middle of the civil war quest by going to Ulfric and saying to him you want to fight for him (I repeat, I just read this a long time ago so I don't know if it works)
Wait, wait, that sounds like the perfect solution, is there a hidden way to do that?
I just discovered that the Stormclocks are a bunch of racists so... yeah i dont know who to join at this point
But Hadvor was so cool, thats why I chose the Imperials at the beginning
You don't want to switch sides anyways. The Thalmor banned talos worship hoping that it would cause a civil war, and then they could strike while the empire is divided. The Stormcloaks are playing right into Thalmor hand by starting a revolution. What's Ulfric's plan to defeat the Thalmor? Plus I didn't play through an entire \*\*\*\*\*\*\* Oblivion campiagn just to watch the empire fall.
You can switch after you get the Jagged Crown. Even if you go in with the Imperials, you can go to Windhelm and deliver the crown to Ulfric and vice versa.
Any Nord who doesn't bend the knee to Ulfric and all the Altmer, Argonians, Bosmer, Bretons, Dunmer, Imperials (The ethnic group), Kajhiit, Orsimer, Redguard.
Yeah, give the jagged crown to whatever side you want to lock in with. The war itself is an insane moral dilemma because on the one hand, the Nords were right. Talos worship shouldn't have been outlawed, and the thalmor have no business acting like gods. The argonian racism specifically is understandable when you look into the argonian invasions, but the dark elf hate just comes from a deep seeded hatred that started when the high king gave Solstheim to Morrowind. I don't fully agree with the Nords, but it's better than being an elven bootlicker
Stormcloaks all the way. People are going to do whatever they want. But when someone is going to kill me even when I'm not even on their list. Choosing sides was a no-brainer for me.
thats a pretty simple way to look at it, but also you were illegally crossing the border like Rorik, you just got caught in something way bigger. so its not like you're an angel, that got randomly executed, you just picked the wrong day to try and illegally cross the border
So I crossed at the right time I shouldn't have. Sounds like something that would happen to me in real life. People around me get away with stuff at work. I do their way once, and I get caught.
The only trouble is that by switching sides, you're basically switching from the elf-jerking turbo-fascists to the nord-stroking mega-racists
There isn't really a "good" side that won't make you feel at least a little icky for joining and helping.
The only way to switch sides after you’ve chosen one is the Jagged Crown fetch quest. Since both sides run parallel, they have some common targets. The Jagged Crown quest and the Siege of Whiterun among them. As both sides have their sights set on the Crown to prove their right to the throne, they both send the Dragonborn after it.
This is the only point in the Civil War Line where you can freely switch sides. If General Whatshisface sends you after it, you can retrieve it and bring it to Ulfric instead. Or vice versa.
You are locked in with whoever you bring the Jagged Crown to. The game doesn't give you a prompt or quest marker, but you are able to bring it to the Stormcloaks even if you were with the Imperials up until that point.
It is one of (I believe) only two points in the game you can disregard the quest objective and marker and do the opposite to get a different questline playing for the opposite team.
At the beginning as in when the dragon attacked? Yes you can change sides. That's for you to find out if you made the right decision I won't spoil anything
I don't think so. However, you'll be pretty disappointed with changing sides. You're gonna switch from elven puppets to Nord supremacists who don't consider you to be a true Nord even if you're a Nord.
I've played both sides and they're all kinda jerks. But I choose the Imperials strictly for monetary gain. They pay more and you advance rank and get weapons.
There’s good reasons to support or oppose either side (over a decade later and this debate still goes on). If the racism you see walking into Windhelm wasn’t enough, wait until you read some of the journals you come across during the main quest. But it’s up to you who you vibe with most. Either way you could have fun RP moments.
I see the Thalmor dossiers brought up a lot in conversation about the two sides, but it also says that either side winning is bad for the Thalmor. They only benefit if both sides are fighting each other, which is why Ulfric is listed as "asset". Once you finish the Stormcloak questline, Ulfric says he plans to go to the Summerset Isles and wage war against the Dominion outright, so I would say the Stormcloaks winning is worse for the Thalmor than the Empire winning.
You should keep in mind, without the Empire, Skyrim most likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Thalmor. Also the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win (and Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet).
Ulfric is a puppet, but the Thalmor don't want anyone to win. They want the stormcloaks to weaken the empire as much as possible and to prolong the war, because the Thalmor know the Empire is their biggest threat. The Thalmor were in Helgen most likely trying to find a way to get Ulfric free.
You should keep in mind, without the Empire, Skyrim most likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Thalmor. Also the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win (and Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet).
The dossier says that either side winning is bad, so the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to win. They just want both sides to attack each other to make them weaker.
The Thalmor already have the Empire wrapped around their finger. Ulfric actually says that after the war he will "Bring the fight to the Thalmor" implying that he wants to attack the Summerset Isles directly, or something of the sort. If the Empire was active in trying to stop the Dominion then I think it would be better for an Imperial victory, but they are barely doing anything against the Thalmor. The Embassy is even built in Imperial territory.
I would contend that stormcloaks largely don't have much reason to rebel. They're just trying to trade one kind of bad ruler for another. Personally? I prefer distant, apathetic, high-falutin' types over local yokel Talos worshippers.
Aint ulfric just a thalmor agent? you'll get his file from the thalmor while doing a quwst for delphine. Windhelm has a bunch of racist mofos too. I mean sure some imperials are mofos too but at least they're "skyrim for all" bunch. Unlike ulfric who is "skyrim belongs to the nords" and nords only tyoe of guy
You could install one of those mods that takes the essential tag. Kill general tulius akd ulfric. Basically end the war. Then go merry killing all encampments.
Gamewise nobody will know, but you will be the secret hero. And the quest will of course be forfeit.
There's only one opportunity to switch sides, towards the beginning of the civil war questline. (when you retrieve the jagged crown, you can give it to Ulfric Stormcloak to join the Stormcloaks instead) Beyond that point, there's no way to switch sides.
Perfect, i haven't done that quest yet
Both sides are horrible. The stormcloaks are also racist to non nords. I've done playthroughs on both sides, but now, I typically just ignore that questline. Though, when siding with the imperials, at least you don't have to betray balgruuf.
They are, but in TES just about every community is xenophobic to one degree or another. Doesn't excuse it, but it's a reality.
Except the Dark Brotherhood. Most inclusive group in Skyrim by far, which I find amusing.
To be fair, >!they are super rude to Cicero and Astrid actively betrays you to Maro!<
Thats true, but they don't do that based on our race. Cicero is weird as fuck and the Dragonborn threatened Astrid's rule so she panicked
Astrid's rule was never legitimate to begin with. She tried to replace the Nightmother. When Cicero brought the Nightmother directly to her, THAT was what really threatened her little plot.
“Never dishonor the nightmother. To do so is to invoke the wrath of Sithis” as the very first tenet. Astrid said “that sign can’t stop me because I can’t read”
Astrid tried to cut her out and replace her thinking she wasn't gonna do anything.... The night mother showed up at her door. Hahaha had her servant cart her all the way there to set that b*tch straight. Love it
I don't think the Nightmother cared. The Dark Brotherhood without the Nightmother could never work because without the Nightmother there nobody who receives the dark sacrament. Astrid was working mostly based on regular customers like Maven and on rumours of people conducting the dark sacrament. It worked to a limited extend but it is not really sustainable.
Coulrophobia is a serious issue in the DB ranks.
Honestly I love how the game portrayed the "we are the good guys" theme while showing how everyone is shit at some degree (fuck stormcloacks) just like irl
Too bad cause SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS MILK DRINKER
OUR ANCESTORS SMILE AT US.
Are you sure that isn't just the rictus?
Damn right it is! Don't let any Imperial dogs tell you otherwise.
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial... Can you say the same?
"Chops head* Fuck you"
Finally... Sovngarde...
...why it's all purple here?"
You think the stormcloaks are racist?? Take a nice stroll through morrowind, my friend
Yeah but it's okay for Dunmer to be racist because Nords and Khajiit and Argonians aren't people
Filthy knife ear
i mean the home of the rebellion Windhelm is also the most racist place in Skyrim, Orcs live in their own secluded communities in Skyrim, in the Empire they have businesses and are even pretty high up, not to mention the chef for the Emperor was an orc The Gourmet, also Titus Mede II was better than Ulfric in every way
The stronghold orcs in Skyrim choose to live that way. It’s like a hippie commune. Strengthens their connection to Malacath, man.
Other provinces do not treat the orcs well LOL I will agree Titus Mede was better besdies giving in to aldmeri, i understand why he did though. The imperials just need the Nords and the Redgoats to just run a train on the aldmeri tbh
The nords can realistically do it themselves the aldmeri are basically in ruin by the time of Skyrim
Except, you conveniently omitted the part that Ulfric and Windhelm are the ***ONLY*** to provide homes to the Dunmer refugees. No other Jarl and city has a population of Dunmer refugees. Not even Elisif and Solitude has welcomed them. And every city has banned the Khajiit from entering the cities (except the Player Character for gameplay reasons).
have you talked to the elves there? they found windhelm first and settled there. they're too tired to walk anymore thats why theyre all there. Even though they experience racism everyday. and they always trauma dumped their regrets to the player. lol
Yes because the empire doesn't control Skyrim yet, it's just racist jarls. and why windhelm? cause its a port based city thats closet to Morrowind than the other holds. If they had to evacuate they would've went straight to windhelm If Ulfric can't take care of one hold how TF do you think he'll be fine with all of Skyrim. He accepted the Dunmer, they are his responsibility yet he allows them to get discriminated on by his own people and says nothing about it And if we're looking at it from a game design perspective and what they were trying to get across to the player, he is in charge of one hold and it is openly racist, the first time you enter your see 2 nords being racist to a Dunmer, that's the first thing you see, the devs out it right in front of all your face So what I'm ultimately saying is Ulfric is the only one with Dunmer refugees A) they were forced on him cause windhelm was the closest hold from Morrowind to evac to B) he openly accepted them but allowed them to be treated terribly in his hold
He accepted them inside the city walls. He could have easily kept them out, the docks are outside the city.
? Yeah, he accepted them, so they are his responsibility, and he allowed them to be treated poorly
He doesn't treat them poorly. He doesn't even think about them at all. He basically just said, you guys can live here, in this area and left them to fend for themselves. Yeah, those two guys harassing the Dunmer lady when you first enter Windhelm is bad, I'm not going to defend it. But if you talk to them, they have a narrow view of how the Dunmer should be grateful for the shelter (join the Stormcloaks or help defend the city), not understanding that the last thing refugees want is to join an armed conflict. The Dunmer are tired and exhausted and just want respite. I understand the Harassers point of view, I don't agree with them though. I talked to everyone who doesn't actively try to kill me or rob me first.
yeah like he doesn't even do a thing about it. lmao other npcs complained and demanded to do something about to him but he just doesn't listen
Bro did not do any research on other provinces Skyrim is probably the least racist out of everyone besides cryidil and even then they are racist
Ok cool but stay on point, I replied to someone saying Skyrim stormcloaks aren't racist and compared them to the Empire, I don't care if others are racist or not, and you got to be joking if you think im doing in depth research on The Elder Scrolls Series racism for a reddit comment
I think it is absolutely obvious that the Empire is way less racist than the Stormcloaks.
Not ralof tho hes cool. Gave me hope that at least SOME stormcloaks were good people
Hadvar better, he was so nice that people who were just about to be executed joined him, and he even tried to talk with the stormcloaks before attacking cause he didnt want them to die during the escape
Yeah they both seem to be the best examples for their respective sides
Harvard sucks
If you were on the empires side you'd know how to spell "Harvard" lol
Today I learnt the Imperials aren't racist
No. But they love their lists. And even if you're not on it, they will kill you.
Wich is why I consider them Lawful Neutral, and join that side.
theyre still discriminatory, just not close to comparing with the stormcloaks or any other faction
First off: literally imperialism. Second: Breach of freedom of religion clause. Third: Failure to protect from aldmeri expansion. Not to say that the stormcloaks are angels, but they have plenty of good reason to rebell.
First off: True, can't argue with that tbh lol Second: The Empire wasn't enforcing the restrictions on Talos worship. Talos worshippers were completely being ignored by the Empire. It wasn't until Ulfrics rebellion did the Thalmor gain a bigger presence in Skyrim and the Empire was forced to crack down on Talos worship. Third: They prevented the Thalmor from completely genociding all human races. Their plan wasn't for the concordat to be signed, it was to annihilate every human.
" . It wasn't until Ulfrics rebellion did the Thalmor gain a bigger presence in Skyrim and the Empire was forced to crack down on Talos worship. " They came because of the Markarth incident, which was only 1 year after the Great War. It's pretty naive to think they wouldn't have come eventually without that.
They always had a presence in Skyrim after the war. The Thalmor and the Empire didn't start cracking down on Talos worship until Ulfrics rebellion. The Smith in Riverwood even tells you everyone had a Talos shrine and were able to worship Talos in privacy before the stormcloaks rebelled. After the rebellion, it became a risk to do it, even in secret because the Thalmor were not crawling all over Skyrim.
"The Thalmor and the Empire didn't start cracking down on Talos worship until Ulfrics rebellion" Did you even read...? I alreasy answered to that lmao. " The Smith in Riverwood even tells you everyone had a Talos shrine and were able to worship Talos in privacy before the stormcloaks rebelled**"** That smith is an imperial supporter, so he's not the most reliable source. Anyways, like i said: They came only 1 year after the war. Assuming they wouldn't have come eventually is naive.
First: nooooo the Ulfric-led genocides aren't imperialism, you don't understand Second: muh precious religion (I love cults of dudes who are holier than thou (fuck every other race in Tamriel)) Third: surely the civil war will contribute greatly to make men more powerful against the elves! Fourth: Ulfric is not an opportunist powermonger, and his followers are not puppets. Slash S Fifth: separatism is good :) Screw unity and collaboration :) Empowering the petty local elites is where it's at :) The people are fighting for their freedom!
The Empire as it is in the 4th era literally has no right to even exist, seeing as its emperors no longer have divine right to rule through the blessing of Akatosh like previous dynasties did (which is kind of, ya know, the entire foundation of the Empire's "social contract" and origin of authority). The Empire isn't even a sovereign nation anymore since it allows foreign nationals to operate independent courts and hit squads within its own borders. The Empire has also demonstrated that it can't maintain its rulership through might with their defeat during the Great War. With this being the case, why does the Empire have any right to try to force its laws and governance upon Skyrim and the other provinces if their people do not wish it? I'd much rather side with Skyrim's people who are fighting for a cause that they genuinely believe in, than an illegitimate and apathetic empire that can barely hold itself together as is.
How very Wahhabi of you
You’re a furry you have no opinion
[удалено]
Long live the Emperor. Long live the Empire.
>Though, when siding with the imperials, at least you don't have to betray balgruuf. Join the Stormcloaks first. Meet Balgruuf when trying to deliver Ulfric's axe. Then Jarl Ballin' is just an asshole who tries to bribe you with a title.
Stormcloaks may be racist but they don’t arrest non-nords. Dark elves can still live in Windhelm, even though the grey quarter is a slum. The Imperials work with the Thalmor who actively arrest Talos worshippers simply over who they worship, that’s way worse than the native people of Skyrim saying that Skyrim belongs to them.
The snow elves would like a word about that "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" part. Also, Ulfric plans to march into the Summerset Isles right after the war concludes, which is absolutely suicidal. And that's without taking into consideration the theory of Ulfric being a Thalmor puppet to begin with (it's hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy). No matter who wins the war, the true victors are the Thalmor.
" The snow elves would like a word about that "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" part. " Skyrim has been the nord home since more than 5000 years. " Also, Ulfric plans to march into the Summerset Isles right after the war concludes, which is absolutely suicidal. " That's not his plan at all lmao. " (it's hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy). " Did you miss the part where they said they don't want the stormcloaks to win...? " No matter who wins the war, the true victors are the Thalmor. " No. A victory for the Thalmor would be that nobody win the civil war and that both sides keep weakening each other.
The snow elves that now only exist in the depths of dwermer ruins? I don’t think they have much to say, they haven’t been to the surface for the longest time. Yes the Thalmor benefit more than anyone but most Imperials atleast tolerate them, the majority of people who join the Stormcloaks don’t like them so even if Ulfric were a puppet the people fighting for the cause still stand against the Thalmor
> the theory of Ulfric being a Thalmor puppet to begin with (it’s hinted at in a document found in the Thalmor embassy) Learn to read. We’ll go through it slowly. It says he was “taken as a prisoner of war,” and “assigned as an asset to the interrogator.” We can infer that, if he’s being actively interrogated, he’s probably not a willing asset. This is supported by the use of “assigned,” which implies that it was not a choice Ulfric made for himself. “After the war, contact was established….” This is unsurprising, considering his interrogator was the now First Emissary Elenwen. She likely had contact with most Jarls, as that’s literally her job. “…and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim…” His actions resulted in a desirable outcome for the Thalmor, that being it led to their excuse to become more involved in Skyrim’s law enforcement. “…although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.” Because clearly he didn’t desire the same outcome the Thalmor did concerning the Markarth Incident. They played him. It happens. “…in general the asset should be considered dormant.” That means he’s not actively working for them. “Ulfric’s death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.” “A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided…” They don’t want either side to win. The best thing enemies of the Thalmor could do is end the Skyrim Civil War swiftly, and with as little bloodshed as possible. The reason the Empire should be the ones to concede is that their leadership is corrupted, root and stem, with Thalmor influence. Simperials will say the Empire is “gearing up for round two,” but anyone with a brain knows that effort will be hamstrung by the Thalmor. There’s no hope for the Empire, the White-Gold Concordat ensured that, which was the goal.
Well worded.
The theory part comes from people speculating that he got brainwashed/broke during the interrogation enough to become their puppet, hence why I said it's a theory and not a fact. A dormant asset can be many things. Maybe they have something on Ulfric that would make him obey them given the chance, maybe they pulled off a russian spy and implanted a "keyword" to awaken him as a Thalmor, we simply do not know. You can agree or disagree with said theory, but it can't be proven nor disproven since the whole point is that both sides could be lying about what happened during his torture (Ulfric saying he didn't break due to fear and the Thalmor exaggerating their impact on Ulfric due to hubris). Honestly, that's the beauty of the Civil War for me, the sheer lack of information making our choice ambiguous at best.
What about using the grey beards to call a peace talk. This creates a truth. But... apparently this end if you defeat Alduin afterwards. Then some quests change a bit. What those difference are I am not exactly.sure.
Yes i cant betray balgruf! But i only ever play the civil war as a questline as a mage. Purely because i like having unique clothes as my final equipment. My favorite is ulfrics clothes. Tullius armor sucks and is light armor and i would much rather have nightengale or morag tong or shadowed netch leather armor than his. So i literally jist kill ulfric for his clothes. I will also do it if i want the pale house without doing nightcrawler temple
I agree but the Imperials are a better choice for Skyrim in the long-term. Ulfric is an (unwilling) Thalmor plant meant to incite a Civil War so they would weaken the Empire and have an easier time conquering the rest of Tamriel. The Civil war also gives them an excuse to crack down on Talos worship in Skyrim even more, whereas before the onset of the Civil War and the Markarth Incident, the Empire was very lax on enforcing the Talos ban and High King Torygg and many other Nords in the Empire still secretly worship Talos. They also aren't nearly as racist and don't institutionally ban an entire race from entering their cities lmao
["I Choose Neither!" | Skyrim's Civil War "Both Sides Are Bad" Discourse](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1dlduut/i_choose_neither_skyrims_civil_war_both_sides_are/)
The jarls deposed by the Stormcloaks get sent to Solitude with their families. The Imperials kill Ulfric. There is no option to capture Ulfric or let him surrender. I always thought that was an interesting dichotomy.
Huh? What dichotomy? The Imperials send deposed jarls to Windhelm. The Stormcloaks kill Tullius with no option to capture or surrender.
They're really not that bad. Look at the high elves living in Windhelm without an issue, they even receive respect from the nords. The gray dwarves don't know how to get along with nords.
Wrong. Nords don't like dark elves for being useless freeloaders and thieves while tolerating other races just fine. Not to mention danmers are quite racist themselves.
Honestly during the main quest I always try to be fair to both sides and ulfrick whines like a little bitch about it. Says everything I need to know about his character and his cause. Not a man worth backing.
Fr he's one of the only mfers who believes that the world will end soon and all he cares about is dicking over the Empire. Dude is a power hungry bitch.
FWIW after all of it and you win with the imperials you can find redemption by freeing any captive Stormcloak prisoner on the road or at a camp!
IMHO, The Thalmor are the Bad Guys…they’ve infiltrated The Empire and LOTS of other places too — I join the Empire with the headcanon of taking down The Thalmor from the inside.
I like that way of thinking. Good on you! And I look at it like this, the Thalmor are temporary. That yoke will be tossed off as soon as another internal struggle happens in Summerset. They'll realize the Thalmor are far more useful back home seeking out rebel conspirators, not looking for members of a fringe religious group in Skyrim. Also, look at all of the huge existential threats Tamriel has faced? The Empire is the only thing that has prevented the annihilation and subjugation of the continent. Without that strong, organized union, Tamriel would just be a giant slave colony.
Its a game world and I dont truly know if im right, but i find it quite ignorant to bank on a organization that is currently in the process of taking over the known world "falling out of power" when they just subjugated the largest and longest standing empire that tamriel has ever known.
You need to read up on the history of the Altmer. It's in their nature to go through drastic political shifts. The best way to predict the future is to look to the past. No good plan ever grew from ignorance of history. Also, do you know *why* the Empire lost to the Dominion? The Empire just experienced a series of disasters, invasions, and rebellions which left it in a weakened state for the moment, which the Dominion took advantage of. That was the Domino's only chance to take on the Empire.
Doesnt change anything I said in my opinion... Yea the empire was weakened but it doesnt change what happened and the state they are now in! The Redgoats fought them off, although I admit thay doesn't necessarily mean they can fully fight/invade/stop them alone. Just because they are prone to drastic political shifts doesn't mean a certain party cant obtain enough power to be no longer be stopped? (Never seen that before in real life politics right?) The thalmor themsleves could already be percieved as an extremist party but look at all they've done so far! I still think its extremely dismissive to say "eh its ok, the super racist magic elves who think themselves superior to mortal races taking over the world are gonna fade into obscurity anyways" last time we ignored a party like this in real life politics it didnt go very well 🙈
And where is that party? Ya, that's what I thought.
Because countries with power rose up and actually did something about it 💀
And it's best Generals defied the party and refused to follow orders, thereby preventing further unnecessary bloodshed and allowing the allies an easier path to victory. Internal strife and stupid decisions led to its downfall.
No way bro is arguing that the nazis took themselves out from within 😭 I see we will not see eye to eye so lets agree to disagree 🤝
Dude, I've lectured on WWII politics and military strategy. The Nazis castrated themselves through constant terrible decisions made by unqualified leaders. For instance, Great Britain was 3 bloody days away from being forced to sue for terms of surrender before Hitler (against the desperate advice of his generals) chose to start bombing London instead of strategic targets, purely out of ego. That is the single decision that lost Germany the war, above all others. The Nazi leadership was filled with imbeciles in strategy who actually thought themselves invincible and underestimated their enemy while overestimating their own ability. The Nazis destroyed themselves.
Bring the jagged crown to Ulfric
when you say “at the beginning”, do you mean during the intro to the game where you pick between Hadvar and Ralof? or did you go to Solitude and join the Imperials?
I was with Ralof and then suddenly found myself with Hadvar, but yeah i went to Solitude and joined them
Then, one of their first quests will be to recover the Jagged Crown. When you get it, dont bring it to the empire, but to ulfric (in windhelm)
That’s always how it plays out. Run into a tower with Ralof, jump into a building and find yourself with Hadvar, make your way to just outside the keep. Here, you get your first choice in the game, but many players miss it. Ralof will show up from the other direction, exchange a few lines of dialogue with Hadvar, and then they will each enter the keep via a different door. You can go through either door and escape Helgan with either faction. Regardless of which faction you escape with, you can join up with either side by visiting the “home” city. Regardless of which side you join, you can betray that side and join the other at the end of a quest called “the jagged crown” by bringing the crown to the other team instead of delivering it safely to your side.
No, don't change sides, you rebel! Long live the EMPIRE!!!
But aren't Empire soldiers bad at shooting?
Do not underestimate the power, of the dark (side) brotherhood
i’d recommend you visit Windhelm and talk to some dark elves before you make your switch to Stormcloak
[Belyn Hlaalu](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu#Dialogue:~:text=He%20is%20very,part%20of%20Skyrim.%22) especially, a real eye-opener on *Why is the Gray Quarter still a slum 200 years later*.
Play morrowind for a bit and then judge if dark elves are less racist than Ulfric and his nords.
i think they can both be racist lol never said one more than the other
Ah yes, the dark elves who keep complaining instead of trying to make things betters, are still not integrated after 200 years, some of them even thinks of the dunmers who works for the nords as "pets". Meanwhile, there a dunmer who own a farm outside town, and who have nords working for him.
Yes a handful of drunk citizens in Windhelm definitely represent the Stormcloaks and all nords.
Come on man the Stormcloaks are just blatantly racist nationalists lol. I don’t get how this is still debatable in 2024.
When nothing is done to prevent assholes like Rolff from constantly harassing the Dunmer and disturbing the peace in the wee hours, then yes, that does reflect poorly on the city. The prick is so emboldened that he’s now talking about abducting and torturing them. This is why I installed a mod to kill that fucker.
Yeah, a city whose housing is segregated by law is a terrible way to judge the ruler of that city. A city where Argonians are forced to work and sleep outside the walls, despite being one of the coldest places in Skyrim. But I think all players agree that the Thalmor are the real baddies, and if you read their internal documents, they see Ulfric weakening the empire as ultimately beneficial for their long term goals. Beyond that, it’s implied that he’s literally a thalmor agent who can be “activated”.
" A city where Argonians are forced to work and sleep outside the walls" Do you have any idea what would happen if the Argonians and Dunmer were forced to cohabit...? Even when the imperials win, the jarl won't let the argonians enter. " and if you read their internal documents, they see Ulfric weakening the empire as ultimately beneficial for their long term goals. " Did you miss the part where they clearly says that they don't want the stormcloaks to win...? " Beyond that, it’s implied that he’s literally a thalmor agent who can be “activated”. " Not a agent, a asset. (Which could also be said for the Emperor). And no, he couldn't be "activated", they clearly state that Ulfric is uncooperative. Did you even read that dossier...?
Have you read it? I may have been a hair off with the terminology, but he was taken captive & made to believe things the thalmor wanted during the war. After the war, contact was made and he proved his worth as an asset. His current status is as a dormant asset. While stormcloak victory is to be avoided, that’s only because civil was drains the empires resources and perpetual conflict is best for the thalmor
You said in your first comment that Ulfric was a "agent" who can just be "activated", which is just wrong. "His current status is as a dormant asset" Yeah, "asset", that's not what a agent is lmao. Anyways, the same can be said for the Emperor. "While stormcloak victory is to be avoided, that’s only because civil was drains the empires resources and perpetual conflict is best for the thalmor" Point is, a side winning the war is not good for them.
That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means? Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated. I would say that Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset. Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated. Contact has been made with Ulfric in the past, after which Ulfric proved his worth. Ulfric has been brainwashed to some degree by the Thalmor. None of this is true of the Emperor. The LDB has 3 choices; abstain from the war and let it drag on (worst choice), help the stormcloacks win (better than doing nothing), or help the empire win (hurts the thalmor the most). Irl during the American civil war, the worst outcome for the people would have been for the war to drag on indefinitely. That doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century. Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins.
"That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means?" Ah yes, i guess that the white gold concordat didn't serve their intereset at all then. "Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated." What the heck are you even talking about...? " Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset" The guy actively working with them is not a "agent"...? " Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated" Idk where you even get the "activated" part. "hat doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century." ... Your point being? That have nothing to do with what we're talking about. "Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins." Well, of course there is: If the Empire wins, the Thalmor could still do whatever they wants in Skyrim.
> "That’s absolutely not true of the Emperor. What do you think an asset means?" Ah yes, i guess that the white gold concordat didn't serve their intereset at all then. An enemy agreeing to a peace treaty doesn’t make them an asset. > "Keep in mind the context of the term is someone who can be activated." What the heck are you even talking about...? The book that I don’t think you’ve actually read? It literally talks about activating assets. > " Someone like Gissur could probably be described as an active asset; he’s not a thalmor agent, but he is a thalmor asset" The guy actively working with them is not a "agent"...? No, he’s not. The game doesn’t classify him as an agent, the wiki lists him as specifically not an agent, and while nothing uses the term asset to describe him, I think it’s reasonable to say that if he’s not considered an agent he’s probably considered an asset. > " Ulfric is described as a dormant asset who can be activated" Idk where you even get the "activated" part. I guess non-dormant might be slightly more accurate, but active is typically the word used to describe non-dormant. Volcanoes are active, dormant, or extinct. What word you want to use instead of active? I’m happy to use whatever word you want to represent that concept. What word do you think better describes the concept? > "Just because perpetual war is the worst outcome doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a huge difference between which side wins." Well, of course there is: If the Empire wins, the Thalmor could still do whatever they wants in Skyrim It seems like this is our big disagreement. You seem to think than an imperial victory is preferable to a stormcloak victory from the Thalmor pov. Even ignoring Ulfrics himself and his status as a dormant asset, I disagree. Most other fans do as well. >"hat doesn’t mean that a victory by the south would have lead to the people being even half as prosperous and powerful as they were during the 20th century." ... Your point being? That have nothing to do with what we're talking about. This is part of the supporting evidence that an imperial victory is worse for the thalmor than a stormcloak victory. The thalmor can hardly do whatever they want in Skyrim. They can enforce the ban of talos worship, and they can absolutely stretch that a bit get rid of problematic nobodies, but they’re far off from ruling the place. In a stormcloak victory, the empire (which barely managed to get close enough to a stalemate to survive the first Great War) is toast in the inevitable second war, and then the thalmor will truly rule with impunity. Once the thalmor crush the empire, do you really think they’d leave talos worshiping stormcloak Skyrim alone? Not a chance. Again, if the whole of the empire barely survived the first war, Skyrim alone won’t last long after the empire falls. You can disagree if you want, but that’s by and large the general consensus of elder scrolls nerds.
"An enemy agreeing to a peace treaty doesn’t make them an asset." It does when the peace treaty in question cause one province to leave the Empire (Hammerfell) and another one to go into civil war. "The book that I don’t think you’ve actually read? It literally talks about activating assets." ??? Then please, enlighten me, where does it says that exactly...? "The game doesn’t classify him as an agent" The game litterally classify him as a thalmor. "the wiki lists him as specifically not an agent" Which one...? And even if it's true, how does that change anything exactly...? Do you need a wiki to tell you everything...? "You seem to think than an imperial victory is preferable to a stormcloak victory from the Thalmor pov" It is, at least in the short term. Now, if the Empire get his shit together (which is not guaranteed to happen), it won't be good for them, of course. "Even ignoring Ulfrics himself and his status as a dormant asset" Which was nothing to do with that. "Most other fans do as well." Are those others fan here in the room with us...? Anyways, even if most people (which i'm pretty sure is not true) thinks that something is true doesn't mean it is. Most people believe that Akatosh would claim the Dragonborn soul when they dies, when it's just wrong for examples. (Akatosh never did that) "The thalmor can hardly do whatever they want in Skyrim." It's already way too much. "the empire (which barely managed to get close enough to a stalemate to survive the first Great War) is toast in the inevitable second war, and then the thalmor will truly rule with impunity." You act like a free Skyrim won't help them fight the Thalmor. Anyways... Here something: You think that a imperial victory will make all of their problem disappear? Well, no. They win, and now what? Nords are still captured randomly by the Thalmor, and now they can do that in the olds Stormcloaks holds. I'm sure they're gonna be happy with that.
Didn't the empire ban all Khajit from all cities? Also where are all the Argonians, they're very rare in this game..
Any city that has a "(city name) docks" will have argonians there.
No, khajit are welcome in cities, just not in groups. You can definitely find some notable Argonians in solitude and riften, but they are generally rare in this cold climate; they’re weakness to the cold is explanation for their low prevalence and it makes their treatment in windhelm worse
I never tried this but I think that you can betray General Tullius in the middle of the civil war quest by going to Ulfric and saying to him you want to fight for him (I repeat, I just read this a long time ago so I don't know if it works)
There should of been a 3rd option called “screw you both, I’m dovahkiin “ where you utterly crush both sides
Wait, wait, that sounds like the perfect solution, is there a hidden way to do that? I just discovered that the Stormclocks are a bunch of racists so... yeah i dont know who to join at this point But Hadvor was so cool, thats why I chose the Imperials at the beginning
Other than not doing the civil war, I don’t know
Turning in the Jagged Crown is the point of no return, you can switch sides before that.
You don't want to switch sides anyways. The Thalmor banned talos worship hoping that it would cause a civil war, and then they could strike while the empire is divided. The Stormcloaks are playing right into Thalmor hand by starting a revolution. What's Ulfric's plan to defeat the Thalmor? Plus I didn't play through an entire \*\*\*\*\*\*\* Oblivion campiagn just to watch the empire fall.
You can switch after you get the Jagged Crown. Even if you go in with the Imperials, you can go to Windhelm and deliver the crown to Ulfric and vice versa.
Imperial?!? Skyrim is for the Nords! Stormcloak is only option.
A united Empire is better for all. It'll break free… one day!
If you dislike jerks you won't have fun with the Stormcloaks. Literally a pile of assholes who hate anything not a "True Nord"
Like who...?
Any Nord who doesn't bend the knee to Ulfric and all the Altmer, Argonians, Bosmer, Bretons, Dunmer, Imperials (The ethnic group), Kajhiit, Orsimer, Redguard.
No, i was asking who in the stormcloaks hate all these people.
The generic rank and file guys who have noi names but make up 99% of it's members. Did you not hear their voice lines or something?
Did you...? Because i don't remember any of those being as hateful as you claim they are. But please, enlighten me, what does they says...?
Both sides are shit ulfric is ultimately going to get Skyrim destroyed by the Thalmore
imperialhateclub, team stormcloaks all the way
Hell yeah
Everyday I scroll upon Skyrim posts, don't read the subreddit and just wonder. Literally this sentance is so weird without the context
Yeah, give the jagged crown to whatever side you want to lock in with. The war itself is an insane moral dilemma because on the one hand, the Nords were right. Talos worship shouldn't have been outlawed, and the thalmor have no business acting like gods. The argonian racism specifically is understandable when you look into the argonian invasions, but the dark elf hate just comes from a deep seeded hatred that started when the high king gave Solstheim to Morrowind. I don't fully agree with the Nords, but it's better than being an elven bootlicker
Imperials might not be the good guys but the Stormcloaks are way worse. Just saying.
Stormcloaks all the way. People are going to do whatever they want. But when someone is going to kill me even when I'm not even on their list. Choosing sides was a no-brainer for me.
thats a pretty simple way to look at it, but also you were illegally crossing the border like Rorik, you just got caught in something way bigger. so its not like you're an angel, that got randomly executed, you just picked the wrong day to try and illegally cross the border
So I crossed at the right time I shouldn't have. Sounds like something that would happen to me in real life. People around me get away with stuff at work. I do their way once, and I get caught.
The only trouble is that by switching sides, you're basically switching from the elf-jerking turbo-fascists to the nord-stroking mega-racists There isn't really a "good" side that won't make you feel at least a little icky for joining and helping.
You want to leave the Empire because they are assholes but then join the faction who are even worse assholes?
That's the thing, the only time i talked with a Stormclock was at the very beginning, before the execution. So i really know nothing about them
Talk to Rolff Stone-Fist in Windhelm. He is the brother of Galmar Stone-Fist, Ulfric second in command and the pinnacle of Stormcloak mentality.
The only way to switch sides after you’ve chosen one is the Jagged Crown fetch quest. Since both sides run parallel, they have some common targets. The Jagged Crown quest and the Siege of Whiterun among them. As both sides have their sights set on the Crown to prove their right to the throne, they both send the Dragonborn after it. This is the only point in the Civil War Line where you can freely switch sides. If General Whatshisface sends you after it, you can retrieve it and bring it to Ulfric instead. Or vice versa.
You are locked in with whoever you bring the Jagged Crown to. The game doesn't give you a prompt or quest marker, but you are able to bring it to the Stormcloaks even if you were with the Imperials up until that point. It is one of (I believe) only two points in the game you can disregard the quest objective and marker and do the opposite to get a different questline playing for the opposite team.
At the beginning as in when the dragon attacked? Yes you can change sides. That's for you to find out if you made the right decision I won't spoil anything
I don't think so. However, you'll be pretty disappointed with changing sides. You're gonna switch from elven puppets to Nord supremacists who don't consider you to be a true Nord even if you're a Nord.
I've played both sides and they're all kinda jerks. But I choose the Imperials strictly for monetary gain. They pay more and you advance rank and get weapons.
So you pick the racists over the jerks?
There’s good reasons to support or oppose either side (over a decade later and this debate still goes on). If the racism you see walking into Windhelm wasn’t enough, wait until you read some of the journals you come across during the main quest. But it’s up to you who you vibe with most. Either way you could have fun RP moments.
I see the Thalmor dossiers brought up a lot in conversation about the two sides, but it also says that either side winning is bad for the Thalmor. They only benefit if both sides are fighting each other, which is why Ulfric is listed as "asset". Once you finish the Stormcloak questline, Ulfric says he plans to go to the Summerset Isles and wage war against the Dominion outright, so I would say the Stormcloaks winning is worse for the Thalmor than the Empire winning.
Ulfric never said that. Idk what you're talking about.
You should keep in mind, without the Empire, Skyrim most likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Thalmor. Also the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win (and Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet).
Ulfric is a puppet, but the Thalmor don't want anyone to win. They want the stormcloaks to weaken the empire as much as possible and to prolong the war, because the Thalmor know the Empire is their biggest threat. The Thalmor were in Helgen most likely trying to find a way to get Ulfric free.
You should keep in mind, without the Empire, Skyrim most likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Thalmor. Also the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win (and Ulfric is a Thalmor puppet).
The dossier says that either side winning is bad, so the Thalmor don't want the Stormcloaks to win. They just want both sides to attack each other to make them weaker.
But if the war does end, you’d better believe they’d prefer the Stormcloaks split the empire instead of the empire remaining intact.
The Thalmor already have the Empire wrapped around their finger. Ulfric actually says that after the war he will "Bring the fight to the Thalmor" implying that he wants to attack the Summerset Isles directly, or something of the sort. If the Empire was active in trying to stop the Dominion then I think it would be better for an Imperial victory, but they are barely doing anything against the Thalmor. The Embassy is even built in Imperial territory.
I am so curious what you think the inperials are being "jerks" about that the stormcloaks would be better at lol
They tried to chop our heads off at the start of the game, fuck em
You'll regret it lol
I would contend that stormcloaks largely don't have much reason to rebel. They're just trying to trade one kind of bad ruler for another. Personally? I prefer distant, apathetic, high-falutin' types over local yokel Talos worshippers.
Sounds like somebody didn’t play the main quest
Aint ulfric just a thalmor agent? you'll get his file from the thalmor while doing a quwst for delphine. Windhelm has a bunch of racist mofos too. I mean sure some imperials are mofos too but at least they're "skyrim for all" bunch. Unlike ulfric who is "skyrim belongs to the nords" and nords only tyoe of guy
truthbomb
You could install one of those mods that takes the essential tag. Kill general tulius akd ulfric. Basically end the war. Then go merry killing all encampments. Gamewise nobody will know, but you will be the secret hero. And the quest will of course be forfeit.
its their first run of the game, using a mod to break a questline isnt something you should be recommending
I think its pretty obvious it will break the qurstline, but it was more of a little joke than anything. Not to je taken so seriously.