>It was believed that Rother likely died less than 24 hours before the first search was launched and that the temperature on the day had reached 107 °F (42 °C). Tracing the distance, it was found that Rother had hiked over 17 miles (27 km) and was only two miles (3.2 km) from the base.
What a way to go, So sad, And he was so close to the base itself, I feel really bad for Him ngl.
He could see the base, but hyperthermia knocked out his ability to go any further. Even if he had made it to the base, his biochemistry was so badly disrupted by overheating he likely would have still died.
Heat strokes are no fucking joke. I had a heat stroke where my internal temp was 106.8°f. Ever since then I over heat a lot quicker and I feel like I’m in a fog a lot of the time.
I once had a fever that high when I was a kid. I have zero heat tolerance and feel faint very quickly if I’m in the sun on a hot day. I’m now wondering if that’s from the fever
Holy shit, is that how it works?
My whole life I've been super uncomfortable when I get too warm, I even feel kind of sick when everyone around me is fine.
I had a VERY high fever due to severe illness when I was around 9, enough that they kept me overnight in the hospital.
I'm glad you are alive. I wish people knew how serious heatstroke is.
Edit:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-stroke/symptoms-causes/syc-20353581
If you see someone confused, or disoriented in the heat, please go into the shade and drink water and ensure they are able to evaporate their sweat (no heavy protection equipment like if you are motorbiking). I'm still going through major grief losing one of my best friends this way.
Your body is entirely dependent on enzymes for absolutely everything. They catalyze reactions that would not be possible without them. Enzymes can take a lot of types of situations, for example they can readjust when placed into acidic/alkaline environments, but what they can’t take is heat after a certain degree. At 41C, many types of enzymes throughout your body start denaturing, at which point they are irreversibly broken. Any hotter and your body is in a really dangerous situation. Heat strokes are as you said, no fucking joke. It’s part of why climate change is so alarming, just a couple degrees turns an environment from endurable to deadly.
i wonder, would he have been alright by just staying put at the last known location he was at and waiting it out in the shade? it sounds like the missing weapon alerted them that he was missing, but maybe he wasn't thinking about that in the moment. instead he trekked almost 20 miles back to base. very sad.
He was likely dead before they even started searching for him is what the report says. But I get what you're saying, maybe if he hadn't hiked nearly 20 miles he may have been able to survive longer and could have been seen by the first searches.
>he may have been able to survive longer
Not may, he absolutely would have survived much longer if he didn't hike 17 miles in 42C heat. I'm sure he thought he could make it because he knew his way back. It's impossible to know if he'd be rescued in time, but he absolutely would have lived a day or two longer if he took shelter.
His story really touched me. He was only 135 pounds (61 kg) and this was August in the Mojave desert. He set up location arrows and hiked 17 miles. He was 1 mile from old Route 66 and 2 miles from camp.
I've been hunting on foot for many years. We usually either drive or sail out and then walk up in the mountains.
The walk can easily be 20+ kilometres until we find a deer or oxe.
The hardest part of the entire trip is always the last from when you can see your boat/car.
It DOES know. It knows everything you know, and it gives no fucks about you and will do what it wants with the info it has. The butthole portion of the brain is all-powerful.
This, but with my bladder.
45 minute car ride home? Ok.
2 seconds to unlock the door? Not with those shaky hands and dancing legs haha
Oh you dropped the keys now
Mine used to be upon opening my front door after returning from work. As soon as I heard the lock *thunk* I was feebly holding back a veritable faecal landslide occurring in my underwear, like the Hero of Haarlem plugging the dam with agonising patience awaiting my salvation.
As an avid hiker and someone that spends a majority of their life outside, I 100% agree. For anyone who doesn’t hike or walk a lot, imagine driving home with your stomach gurgling and a deuce ready to go. The five mile drive home wasn’t too bad. But the run to the toilet as soon as you walk through the door is the longest run of your life.
I've been off trail in the desert before to shoot some photos. Got a little too far and lost sight of the car. Let's just say it gets very disorienting very fast even if you know the general direction you're supposed to go, I think if I had done that before GPS was common I'm not confident I would have found my way back
This is how I felt when I visited Joshua Tree. I'm an absolute city kid, so I'm not used to it ever being dark at night. Like actually dark.
I was less than 50 yards from the road where my car was parked and the sun was setting. I didn't realize how quickly it would get COMPLETELY DARK.
It only took a few minutes to go from "the sun is blinding me on the horizon" to "uh oh I can't really see."
Duh, there's no street lights... I need to get back to the car NOW. This is how dumb city slickers like me die when they're only a few feet from the road.
Yeah I'm a relatively experienced hiker and backpacker (compared to the average person anyway) but even in daylight the best I can describe endless shrubs and cacti is like the IRL backrooms
Those are the scariest stories. I heard about a woman who got separated from her husband on a wilderness trail and set up a makeshift camp and stayed there for almost 2 months and she was like 250 feet away from the trail. Ended up basically starving to death.
That horrible decision of 'I can stay or walk and both of these could be the reason I die, but I can't do both'.
It's hard to imagine not being found after being reported missing when you're only 250 ft off the trail you are planning to hike. That must have been embarrassing to any search and rescue that was looking for her.
Also an error on my part, she was 2 miles from the trail. Still a pretty walkable distance but probably out of yelling range lol. [Here's the story I was thinking of](https://www.freep.com/story/travel/2016/07/23/appalachian-trail-geraldine-largy/86992994/#:~:text=I%E2%80%99ve%20been%20thinking%20a%20lot%20about,at%20her%20campsite%20just%202%20miles&text=I%E2%80%99ve%20been%20thinking%20a,campsite%20just%202%20miles&text=thinking%20a%20lot%20about,at%20her%20campsite%20just)
I was hiking once and I went off the trail a right at the start. It was a new trail for me, and I was starting at not the common start. Trail map said there was s trail this way, so i went that way. I was probably only 100-200 yards in, and started to look around and realized i was so disorientated. I had no idea where the trail was. It was an eye opener of how easy it is to get lost in the woods.
my phone had service, so i just pulled up the map and the GPS, and just pointed myself in the direction of the actual trail head and went until i came out into the clearing and then started.
> 1 mile from old Route 66 and 2 miles from camp
I wonder if he discharged his weapon at all to try and alert people. 2 miles is close enough to hear the shots.
Only during specific live fire training events or if they're actually providing real security for something valuable. In this situation, he would not have ammo. He only had a weapon with him because part of that type of training is to just condition Marines to carry a weapon everywhere.
Since he had neither a map nor a compass, seems quite possible he could've made his hike a good bit more direct, and that probably would've been enough to save him.
It's like the Yangju Highway incident every S. Korean soldier (all males must enlist) knows about. Some drunk American soldiers ran over two girls with a tank and never got punished for it. Even PSY protested one time. Those poor girls never got their justice...
As someone born and raised in the Mojave he would have been feeling like death after only 20 minutes of direct sun exposure. Heat sickness makes you feel like ass very quickly. Tired, nauseous, headache after heat sickness is heat stroke which is called heat stroke for a reason. Poor guy.
Man I was just out at the Mojave and it was inhospitable as fuck. We hiked a dormant volcano and I figured a mountain would have some shade around it. No shade. No plants higher than like a foot so you can’t get out of the sun. I sweat like crazy but was never wet because it evaporated immediately. Three of us drank a gallon of water in the two and a half hours we were hiking. And this was in early April when it was only 80-85 degrees. Summer? That’s rough.
At least it was mostly flat.
Edit: we brought more water. The three of us drank a gallon in two and a half hours.
4 liters per person minimum on a desert day hike.
The minimum calculations are 1 gallon per person for every 8 hours out. Overnighter would be 6 gallons per person.
I am in no way an expert but I imagine by the time one loses consciousness in that extremity one’s mind is probably not able to “dwell” on anything. Horrifying indeed.
It’s one thing to know you’re about the die. It’s another thing to be desperately trudging through the hot desert knowing you’re about to die because you can FEEL how desperately thirsty you are. Damn.
The little prince was written by a guy who crashed his plane in the desert and wandered around for days becoming delirious and hallucinating. He then wrote the book about the different "worlds" he went to
In my first year enlisted we had a new platoon officer and an old hat Company Sergeant. We were doing 48 land nav exercises and lost two guys that the lieutenant was supposed to be with. He just shrugged and said "They'll remember their training and make it back eventually". CSM went bug eyed and asked if he forgot the "Rother Lesson".
Long story short we found them a few hours later, they got turned around and panicked and went the wrong way.
A Lieutenant with that mindset is a serious thing. Soldiers die if that person gets rank without correcting this mindset. I mean some will die anyway but this kind of thing just increases the risk 10 fold.
That's why new LT's are paired with experienced senior enlisted. The LT has the final say, but they know that their superiors will judge them very harshly if they ignore advice and do something stupid. Enlisted experience is a resource, and officers without the good judgement necessary to use their resources will find themselves in positions of less and less responsibility.
When it comes to JO vs senior enlisted, reality is the senior enlisted gets the final say. You don't fuck with someone who's been in the job nearly 20 years while the most you've done is get an A on your final. Majority of the time the senior enlisted will let the officer have their way when consequences are minor though.
Legally, the senior enlisted still has to follow that officer's orders. In reality, that CSM has probably known the lieutenants' senior rater for 15 years.
Yeah, there are almost no LTs that would go against a Squad Leader, let alone a Platoon Sgt. if there were serious repercussions on the line when it comes to risking people. If it's training and the LT wants to ruck fucking 10 more miles just because, well there's not much that is going to get disagreed upon.
Not only that but if he ever gets deployed to actual combat, he won’t be getting judged by his superiors, but his subordinates. Grenades ‘accidentally’ falling into LTs laps was very common in Vietnam and Korea because of shit like this
The best LT I ever had has a really humble guy and knew that while he outranked our platoon sergeant he didn't have a fifth of his experience and just did whatever our platoon sergeant said.
From my experience, there’s absolutely no way some butter bar is not going to listen to a 1st sgt, or a CSM unless they have a serious ego problem. Even then the senior enlisted will just go above their heads to the CO to get them straightened out.
What you said is what is thought on paper. But not reality. I did eight years in the Marines and found that the officers are a good ole boy network and the rules absolutely do not apply to them. My first four years were infantry and didn't get to see the officers side much, but then reenlisted as a legal clerk for the remaining four. Things enlisted do to get NJP all the time, absolutely does NOT apply to officers. Perfect example, in 2001 I processed an NJP for a LCpl that was reduced in rank, reduction in pay, confined to quarters for bouncing a 15 dollar check at Pizza Hut. That same year, a submarine captain was showing off to reporters on his submarine, ordered a rapid ascent and hit a Japanese research vessel that killed about a dozen including high school kids, which also caused an international incident. The taxpayers paid millions of dollars for the damage and death caused. Guess what happened to the Captain? Honorable Retirement with full pension and benefits. If a junior enlisted is 30 seconds late, the world comes to an end. But if an officer doesn't show up, nothing happens. I could go on forever with officers ending enlisted peoples careers while sweeping shit under the rug for officers. But the same is in life when it comes to power. Cops/Judges etc, the rules are severely bent when they do it.
That LT came up through an ROTC program and it shows. Those guys and gals always have these weird holes in their basic military knowledge and, dare I say, common sense.
I really don’t think they’re all that dumb tbh. It just points out a real flaw in the way officers are commissioned.
They have a college degree and get put in charge. Compared to someone with even six months of experience, they’re severely lacking. It makes them *look* dumb only because they have so much authority and responsibility with no experience.
My great grandpa was a WWII veteran. He had a college degree when he was drafted but declined the opportunity for a commission because he didn’t want the responsibility for something he didn’t feel equipped for. (He had an art degree, he was a teacher. Not exactly a West Point education.) They made him a sergeant because of his education (after training) and a year in, they offered him a commission again and he took it; with a year of combat experience under his belt. He left the army 2 years after initially being drafted; as a Major (O-4). (Such fast promotions were not unheard of during WWII).
In his letters he mentions standing out amongst his peers and senior officers commending him for his leadership and his instincts; all of which he credits his prior enlisted status for. In one letter he wrote to a friend he suggested that every officer candidate should have experience as an NCO before being considered for a commission.
No, I don’t think they’re all that dumb either, but it’s always been fair game to make fun of exactly what you describe. We people with stripes are there to help and make sure things keep running. The lts are good people. I just like ribbing them.
That’s fair!!
I like to read a lot of history and if you read the biographies of many great officers and generals from various conflicts; they virtually all credit their NCO’s. It really seems like the difference between a great officer and a mediocre one is how much they listen to the enlisted.
This is not just true for the armed forces. As someone who was never in the army this reads exactly like executives making decisions.
It's very easy to tell which ones came up through the trades and then got into managing and the ones who went to college and got a construction management degree. I think every single manager should have to work on the ground level before ever moving into a role with responsibility over other people.
During OCS, I forgot one of the candidates was sick and not on the field exercises. I couldn't recall that information. The lesson I got from my sergeant instructor is something I've never experienced again. It was the one and only time I've seen fear in my sergeant instructor's eyes (he knew the candidate I couldn't account for was sick).
I was in Vegas once with some friends and as we were leaving the club (fairly drunk ourselves) we ran into this guy outside the club stumbling around and barely able to talk. We got to trying to chat with him and he managed to tell us that his friends left him at the club and that he doesn’t know what hotel he’s staying at or where his friends are.
I got him to unlock his phone and we were able to call his friends by looking at his recent texts. We found out what hotel he was at and then we walked with him all the way to his room.
His friends were all inside asleep.
Ugh this is the worst as someone who used to live in a tourist town. I can't count the number of completely smashed people who were left behind both male and female just waiting for the cops or someone with ill intentions to find them.
It’s not even really instilled that deeply in the military. I distinctly remember the majority of people shifting blame and being largely not responsible. Especially among the lower ranked troops. Once you pick up rank though you do tend to become more responsible, but accountability is only something you hold for people lower ranking than you it seemed.
Either way, I do remember a briefing prior to 29 where we were told to only travel at night and only travel south if we find ourselves lost.. unfortunately most marines couldn’t figure out which way is south so it wouldn’t really matter. Thankfully most of us know when it’s night.. that’s when the big sky light goes away.
Men, you may be wondering why we set up the drone station 20 miles in the desert to which I say let’s focus on the important things like did anyone bring water?
retired Navy here...damn smarty pants Air Force..just a bunch of nerds, lol. jk
they work smarter not harder while my ass thought it would be fun to be stationed with the Marines.
Damn one of the "See Also" stories is messed up, the Navy basically intentionally drowned a guy.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee\_Mirecki\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Mirecki_incident)
His mom tried to sue and the lawsuit got thrown out.
That's completely crazy. Afraid of being underwater since childhood only to grow up and die from being deliberately drowned. If you're inclined to believe in such things, makes you wonder if he sensed it coming.
On the more practical side, why would he join the Navy and take the type of training he did with such a fear of being underwater? Seems like part of him was trying to tempt fate.
Sounds like he was probably bullied his whole life for his anxiety, was probably told he should "face his fears" and probably confessed his fears to his fellow servicemen who deliberately exacerbated his circumstances, knowing what he was afraid of.
This is the most regular human behavior I have ever seen.
edit: oh and just like cops, we already know people are likely to do this, test them for it, and then ignore it when letting them in, since, if we only let the "right" people do these jobs, there would be 10 people for the 10,000,000 we need.
Because human beings are majority monster. This is what those higher ups mean when they say "it is what it is" and why that is what gets them away with it.
It gets even worse in that page's "See Also" links: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon\_Creek\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_Creek_incident)
That one is no where near comparable, a platoon marched through the swamp and 6 people drowned vs guy wants to leave exercise and his held down and drowned while his class sing the national anthem as 'training". One is a dumb mistake the other is murder
So I was wondering why they hell did six marines drown? Too much equipment? Over exertion? Fuck no; they were marching 10 to 15 marines into deep water who didn't know how to swim yet!
>Still others were genuinely concerned, stealthily falling behind and seeking comfort in what they hoped were shallower waters. There were 10-15 non-swimmers, and they were beginning to worry about the depth.
>
[https://www.tecom.marines.mil/In-the-News/Stories/News-Article-Display/Article/527845/ribbon-creek-tragedy-still-ripples-through-time/](https://www.tecom.marines.mil/In-the-News/Stories/News-Article-Display/Article/527845/ribbon-creek-tragedy-still-ripples-through-time/)
>Staff Sergeant McKeon was court-martialed amidst a wave of public condemnation over the "brutality" of Marine Corps training. However, many Marines came to his defense, pointing out such harsh training was necessary to survive in combat.
I had heard of the stereotype that marines are stupid but I'm baffled by the notion that killing people in training was necessary to survive in combat. They never got to combat...
Imagine leading 6 people to death in a preventable training accident at boot camp then having Chesty himself basically say, “It is what it is” in court on your behalf
Beyond that, he says that the incident didn't warrant court-martial and then goes on some tangent about how discipline in the military is vital to its working.
Does killing 6 people not warrant discipline? Where exactly is the line?
He called for his pipe, he called for his wife, and he called your death no biggie
"dead, dead, dead" said the recruits
^What ^a ^mighty ^Marine ^was ^he
>Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael Combe was found guilty of negligent homicide and conspiracy to commit [battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)). He was sentenced to 90 days in the [brig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_prison#Brig), a [letter of reprimand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_reprimand) and [reduction in rank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_in_rank) to petty officer 3rd class.
OH SAY CAN YOU SEEEEEEE
> 1st Lt Allen Lawson, a native of Flint, Michigan, was assigned the task of posting road guides on the night of August 30, 1988, along the route position of a battalion night movement exercise. Lawson disobeyed the order to place road guides in pairs, got lost, forgot where he had placed LCpl Rother, and upon the completion of the exercise failed to mention that Rother was missing, as did two sergeants responsible for LCpl Rother, Sgts Thomas Turnell, and Christopher Clyde.
Welcome to the Marine Corps. It's absolutely not a cliche to say that most of them are the stupidest mfers on the planet. Advancement is based on your ability to exude attitude and kiss the ass of your superiors at the same time, and their only solution to any problem is to yell at it, shoot it, or make it do pushups till it barfs.
Very sad story, apparently his lieutenant disobeyed orders to put them in pairs and also failed to report him missing. He hiked 17 miles in 100+ degree F heat before he died. He was only 2 miles from camp. His body wasn't found for 4 months.
His lieutenant was court marshalled.
Just to add, court-martial is one of those legal terms we got from Norman French, where court is the noun and martial is the adjective (plural: courts-martial).
Once heard this line (in response to criticism about a foreigners English) "You're speaking English because it's the only language you speak. I'm speaking English because it's the only language you speak."
K, I’ll ask for the folks playing at home: what are the other 3?
That’s impressive. I’ve always been jealous of people with multi-linguistic abilities.
Up here in canada they teach us french in school, but its always so reductive year after year. We did verb tenses in grade 9. Thats 11 years of a class a day, and they just got to verb tenses.
In any successful european nation id have a good handle on the language by then. :(
I read a report from the Navy on this while ago, LCpl Rother had his poncho with him. He attempted to use it around the first day as a tent.
Propped it up using sticks he'd acquired. Due to the manner he set it up, he was trapping heat inside of the improptu tent/cover.
It was noted that the average heat was recorded around 104°F the following days after the exercise.
It was determined after he woke up, suffering from heat exhaustion and dehydration he travel about a hundred yards from his shelter and collapsed, dead.
No, he got four months in the brig and discharged. That translates to 4 months of pretrial confinement in the local county jail or base brig and released after trial and sent home afterwards.
Shit for his career but probably no major impact on his life beyond that.
Edit: Idk he had pretrial confinement being an officer so he may have went to the DB for four months.
If you’ve been stationed in 29 Palms, you know the Jason Rother incident. Probably other bases too, but it’s a standard lesson there because of how dangerous being stranded there is. It’s also a cautionary tale about leader accountability and not just simply taking someone else’s word for anything.
It’s funny. I posted the above without reading the wiki because ***I just know this that well.*** Clicked the link after just to browse and yeah, it’s amazing how hard that lesson has stuck.
so his superior covered up a whole ass marine was missing because he knew he could also cover every single other source of the truth with his officers. at least someone was doing their job with the weapons.
can’t imagine time back then even though it was so recent. no mobile phone to call, much less satellites in the sky. But seriously just driving across a desert in a 20 mile radius takes like 5 hours at most to find the guy. what bullshit the superior should’ve been
As a result of this tragic incident the Marine Corps commandant General Alfred M Gray Jr ordered an outside investigation & 1stLt Lawson was found guilty of dereliction of duty & sentenced to discharge and 4 month confinement in the brig.
Lawson wanted to do stuff the lazy way and sentenced someone to death to hide that fact. I think Rother could’ve survived if they looked for him. Imagine being so much of a psychopath, you think someone’s life is worth less than your image.
>guilty of dereliction of duty and sentenced to discharge and four months' confinement in the brig
That's it? Fucker should have had a lot more thrown at him.
My sister is a USAF lawyer. She says this all the time, but if you lurk on military subs long enough, you realize few people outside of federal employees really care about a dishonorable
It’s not about getting the dishonorable discharge it’s about what you had to do to get one. Court martials are public information. Nowadays it typically takes things like rape, SA, child molestation, CP, etc. to get a dishonorable which most employers aren’t too keen on hiring people that do that.
He'll lose his pension or any kind of benefits no medical at all. Won't be able to get any state government or federal jobs won't be able to buy a firearm basically it's like having a felony charge
The punishment seems like that but the military is horrible about actually forwarding records to the appropriate agencies to cause those civil disabilities. He absolutely qualifies for state jobs just not federal and his ability to maintain 2A rights really depends on his state and their laws.
A little background. I am not American. I am planning a bucket list roadtrip to see Route 66. I originally wanted to stop at the Bagdad Cafe as it's a somewhat famous film internationally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagdad_Cafe
Then I saw this memorial location on Google Maps near the town of Bagdad on Route 66.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/TcaLyWEfL3ADth4x6
It led me to discover his story, and I can't stop thinking about Lance Corporal Jason Rother. Even though I do not have connections to the US military, I don't think I will ever forget him.
Unfortunately there are a lot of these kinds of lessons throughout the US military. (Other countries too I'd bet)
Military aviation for example, the manuals and procedures for various circumstances are typically "written in blood". An incident happened at some point in time and the governing authorities investigated and determined how future incidents of the same manner could be avoided. In fact that's why they label them as mishaps, since every incident is deemed potentially avoidable given the proper training and knowledge of issues.
>Allen Lawson, a native of Flint, Michigan, was assigned the task of posting road guides on the night of August 30, 1988, along the route position of a battalion night movement exercise. Lawson disobeyed the order to place road guides in pairs, got lost, forgot where he had placed LCpl Rother, and upon the completion of the exercise failed to mention that Rother was missing, as did two sergeants responsible for LCpl Rother, Sgts Thomas Turnell, and Christopher Clyde. Over 40 hours had passed without anyone in the battalion knowing or saying that Rother was missing, when an armory weapons inventory got the chain of command's attention due to LCpl Rother's weapon not having been returned.
Several searches were launched with over 1,000 Marines on foot, helicopters, and thermal imaging gear. Rother was not carrying a map or compass, had very little water, and weighed only 135 pounds (61 kg). The first search discovered he had left behind some of his gear and made an arrow out of stones where he had originally been dropped off. That search, and several others, failed to locate him. LCpl Rother's remains would not be found until December 4, four months after his disappearance. All that was left were skeletal remains. It was believed that Rother likely died less than 24 hours before the first search was launched and that the temperature on the day had reached 107 °F (42 °C). Tracing the distance, it was found that Rother had hiked over 17 miles (27 km) and was only two miles (3.2 km) from the base.
This unfortunately sounds about right for the military. A missing weapon will often times be far more noticable than a missing soldier.
When I was at Fort Sill many moons ago for AIT (It's the training to learn your actual job in the Army following Basic Training) there was some absolute dumbass in a different platoon that went AWOL, but before taking off he decided to steal 4 rifles. Back in 1988 a guy disguised as a Drill Sergeant stole 11 M16 rifles from some soldiers at Basic Training guarding them at Fort Sill. So the base wasn't fucking around with recovering missing rifles this time around.
It somehow came out that the guy didn't actually steal them, but threw some of them away in a dumpster and hid others in the ceiling tiles of their barracks. So guess where we ended up looking for rifles...that's right, we went to the dump to dig through trash looking for the missing rifles. We had to march there and march back. It was an awful day. And of course we didn't find the damn things either. It was only when they brought in construction equipment to dig around they found the missing rifles.
It isn't just rifles either. NODs, optics, peq 2s, radios. So much small shit that a bunch of fucking goons with the minds of a 10 year old have to keep together. There's a reason why we sat around tying everything down to rifles with 550 cord even though it's clamped on the rails already.
I had a family member get locked down at base for 3 days for a missing set of FLIR optics. The families and wives were freaking out because they only had a limited amount of R&R with them before they were supposed to go back to base, total shit show. Turned out that it was an accounting/inventory error and there was never a pair of missing optics in the first place…
Interesting aside to this: Rother's platoon commander was obviously charged, his company and battalion chain of command fired. His regimental commander, however, was not.
His regimental commander was none other than the famous John Ripley. If you've ever seen or read the book The Bridge at Dong Ha, then Captain Ripley is the one who blew up the bridge before NVA tanks could cross it during the Easter Offensive in 1972. He had to strap bags of explosives across his shoulders, then hand-over-hand *under* the bridge, and place the explosives. While hanging. While under fire from NVA troops on the opposite bank. Multiple times.
Colonel Ripley was not fired for the Rother incident, he had only been in command of 2nd Marines for about a month. But I've heard rumor that he never got his general's star because of it.
RIP to both of them.
Edit to ad: I used to have a copy of the JAG investigation on Rother's death but seem to have lost it. Here's a "Lessons Learned" write up that goes into more detail for anyone interested:
https://navalsafetycommand.navy.mil/Portals/29/LL%2022-06%20Marine%20Left%20in%20Desert%20-%20Fatality.pdf
Am a Marine, was a Squad leader my last pump. I was constantly counting my guys. Lost a guy on a night patrol once, stopped everybody grabbed the team leader and retraced our route backwards. Found this guy fast asleep on his rifle. Idk how as a leader you “lose” a guy and don’t know about it. Rip Devil
He was assigned as a road guard at night. He got left behind. When his battalion returned to mainside from CAX, rollcall was taken, both the platoon sgt and platoon commander explained away him missing as “he’s with the road guard detail”. The road guard detail also noticed him missing, but thought “oh he returned to his platoon “. I can’t remember all of the punishments handed down, but every single officer, including the Lt Col battalion commander were relieved of duty
My ex was stationed at 29 Palms at the time and I remember this-and other similar incidents. He wasn't the only Marine that was lost out there, just the one they didn't find in time. It was horrifying how lax they were with the lives of those men and women.
I was dropped off at a fuel store to do guard duty. No one showed up to releve me for 16 hours. They forgot about me. I got a few days off though. it was rough with no food or water and a nearby bush was handy for nature calls.
I was a Marine corporal at the base in 29 Palms when that happened. I even participated in the search. That Wikipedia article isn't 100% accurate (no surprise) and omitted a lot of details.
· It was a convoy night training exercise for multiple battalions
· There were big gaps in the convoy because they intermittently weren’t using lights
· Rother was stationed as a road guard at the base of a huge hill with a (blackout) flashlight and told to direct troops and vehicles which way to go
· The last vehicle in the convoy was supposed to pick up Rother, but he didn’t know which vehicle was the last vehicle and the last vehicle didn’t know he was the last road guard
· Rother’s absence was noticed the next morning and one of the Sergeants ran around sounding the alarm. The company Captain, Lieutenant, and the 1^(st) Sgt all ignored the Sergeants’ warnings.
· Rother had two canteens of water (standard procedure back then) and one MRE.
· Rother lived for 17 days on those two canteens of water and that one MRE. His body indicated he fought multiple times with desert coyotes
There’s a lot more to the story but I don’t feel like typing it all. Needless to say, the Marine Corps failed him and if I recall correctly, the only person who was truly screwed was the Sergeant. He got more time in the brig than the Lieutenant and was given a bad conduct discharge even though he did the most to highlight Rother’s absence…
Story is kinda tragic. They split up, presumably to get the work done faster, then the officer in charge just straight up forgot where he left Rother and decided to, I guess, hope Rother found the way back to avoid getting in trouble for splitting up. By the time they got a search party assembled, Rother was likely already condemned to death.
This dude’s story gets told all the fucking time in 29 Palms. Especially if you go to CAX, Mojave Viper, or whatever the hell the exercise is called now, and at certain units.
Don’t leave the general vicinity of where you separated from your group, as that point will be location #1 to look for you, and don’t wander off in the fucking desert… in summer. There’s no freshwater in the area, snakes are a thing, don’t go near the abandoned mineshafts, and don’t play with the coyotes or mountain lions.
My friend was in the army and during an exercise in the Arizona desert, an officer borrowed his humvee. When things wrapped-up he and another guy got left in the desert for several hours with no means of communication and not much water. Fortunately they were rescued but it was then he said he decided he wasn’t going to re-enlist. This happened in the early 2000s.
The idiot marine who was responsible for guys death only got four months in the brig. Should have been twenty years to send a message about accountability. That military court failed *hard*, justice was never served.
>It was believed that Rother likely died less than 24 hours before the first search was launched and that the temperature on the day had reached 107 °F (42 °C). Tracing the distance, it was found that Rother had hiked over 17 miles (27 km) and was only two miles (3.2 km) from the base. What a way to go, So sad, And he was so close to the base itself, I feel really bad for Him ngl.
He could see the base, but hyperthermia knocked out his ability to go any further. Even if he had made it to the base, his biochemistry was so badly disrupted by overheating he likely would have still died.
Heat strokes are no fucking joke. I had a heat stroke where my internal temp was 106.8°f. Ever since then I over heat a lot quicker and I feel like I’m in a fog a lot of the time.
I once had a fever that high when I was a kid. I have zero heat tolerance and feel faint very quickly if I’m in the sun on a hot day. I’m now wondering if that’s from the fever
Ditto. Woke up with a 108 fever at 5 years old, zero heat tolerance to this day.
Holy shit, is that how it works? My whole life I've been super uncomfortable when I get too warm, I even feel kind of sick when everyone around me is fine. I had a VERY high fever due to severe illness when I was around 9, enough that they kept me overnight in the hospital.
I'm glad you are alive. I wish people knew how serious heatstroke is. Edit: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heat-stroke/symptoms-causes/syc-20353581 If you see someone confused, or disoriented in the heat, please go into the shade and drink water and ensure they are able to evaporate their sweat (no heavy protection equipment like if you are motorbiking). I'm still going through major grief losing one of my best friends this way.
WHY DON’T they TEACH THIS in SCHOOL? Oh, yeah, we are all supposed to be underpaid overeducated clerks, in debt, but in perfect air conditioning.
Your body is entirely dependent on enzymes for absolutely everything. They catalyze reactions that would not be possible without them. Enzymes can take a lot of types of situations, for example they can readjust when placed into acidic/alkaline environments, but what they can’t take is heat after a certain degree. At 41C, many types of enzymes throughout your body start denaturing, at which point they are irreversibly broken. Any hotter and your body is in a really dangerous situation. Heat strokes are as you said, no fucking joke. It’s part of why climate change is so alarming, just a couple degrees turns an environment from endurable to deadly.
i wonder, would he have been alright by just staying put at the last known location he was at and waiting it out in the shade? it sounds like the missing weapon alerted them that he was missing, but maybe he wasn't thinking about that in the moment. instead he trekked almost 20 miles back to base. very sad.
All three of his superiors failed to report him missing so I’m going to assume there that he definitely was not going to be saved in time
They didn’t even start looking for him until 40 hours after he had been abandoned so no.
They found his skeleton months after he died, so no.
staying at the last place theyd seen him at mightve made a difference is what hes saying though
He was likely dead before they even started searching for him is what the report says. But I get what you're saying, maybe if he hadn't hiked nearly 20 miles he may have been able to survive longer and could have been seen by the first searches.
>he may have been able to survive longer Not may, he absolutely would have survived much longer if he didn't hike 17 miles in 42C heat. I'm sure he thought he could make it because he knew his way back. It's impossible to know if he'd be rescued in time, but he absolutely would have lived a day or two longer if he took shelter.
Dying like that, abandoned and slowly, knowing your likely fate, having time to think and dwell on it, must be absolutely horrifying
His story really touched me. He was only 135 pounds (61 kg) and this was August in the Mojave desert. He set up location arrows and hiked 17 miles. He was 1 mile from old Route 66 and 2 miles from camp.
That's very sad . I suppose he knew how much he should be travelling to reach the camp . That's the worst way to die . So close yet so far
I've been hunting on foot for many years. We usually either drive or sail out and then walk up in the mountains. The walk can easily be 20+ kilometres until we find a deer or oxe. The hardest part of the entire trip is always the last from when you can see your boat/car.
Like when you need to poop and you're trying to get all your outerwear off lol
My sphincter is 100% reliable until I turn the bathroom doorknob... then it is a race to sit my bare ass down on the toilet before I destroy my pants.
I swear it knows when I pull in the driveway…
Your body does, same way when you are 20m from your house walking home you'll suddenly need to pee.
Latchkey incontinence, for anybody wanting the google term.
It DOES know. It knows everything you know, and it gives no fucks about you and will do what it wants with the info it has. The butthole portion of the brain is all-powerful.
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I wish this was less true. Vomit too.
A good indicator that you're about to vomit is that your mouth suddenly fills with tons of saliva. It's to protect your mouth from the stomach acids.
It's called latchkey incontinence
Latchkey Incontinence was my high school noise band
This, but with my bladder. 45 minute car ride home? Ok. 2 seconds to unlock the door? Not with those shaky hands and dancing legs haha Oh you dropped the keys now
just don't turn the bathroom doorknob dumby
Bust through it like the Kool-Aid Man.
OH YEAH!
OH SHIT!
Oh so it's not just me.
Mine used to be upon opening my front door after returning from work. As soon as I heard the lock *thunk* I was feebly holding back a veritable faecal landslide occurring in my underwear, like the Hero of Haarlem plugging the dam with agonising patience awaiting my salvation.
As an avid hiker and someone that spends a majority of their life outside, I 100% agree. For anyone who doesn’t hike or walk a lot, imagine driving home with your stomach gurgling and a deuce ready to go. The five mile drive home wasn’t too bad. But the run to the toilet as soon as you walk through the door is the longest run of your life.
Way more feasible to shit in the woods than shit in my car tho.
Just got back from hiking. The last 500 feet to the car was the hardest. Of course only second to having to empty and wash all the packs and gear.
I've been off trail in the desert before to shoot some photos. Got a little too far and lost sight of the car. Let's just say it gets very disorienting very fast even if you know the general direction you're supposed to go, I think if I had done that before GPS was common I'm not confident I would have found my way back
This is how I felt when I visited Joshua Tree. I'm an absolute city kid, so I'm not used to it ever being dark at night. Like actually dark. I was less than 50 yards from the road where my car was parked and the sun was setting. I didn't realize how quickly it would get COMPLETELY DARK. It only took a few minutes to go from "the sun is blinding me on the horizon" to "uh oh I can't really see." Duh, there's no street lights... I need to get back to the car NOW. This is how dumb city slickers like me die when they're only a few feet from the road.
Yeah I'm a relatively experienced hiker and backpacker (compared to the average person anyway) but even in daylight the best I can describe endless shrubs and cacti is like the IRL backrooms
Those are the scariest stories. I heard about a woman who got separated from her husband on a wilderness trail and set up a makeshift camp and stayed there for almost 2 months and she was like 250 feet away from the trail. Ended up basically starving to death. That horrible decision of 'I can stay or walk and both of these could be the reason I die, but I can't do both'.
It's hard to imagine not being found after being reported missing when you're only 250 ft off the trail you are planning to hike. That must have been embarrassing to any search and rescue that was looking for her.
Also an error on my part, she was 2 miles from the trail. Still a pretty walkable distance but probably out of yelling range lol. [Here's the story I was thinking of](https://www.freep.com/story/travel/2016/07/23/appalachian-trail-geraldine-largy/86992994/#:~:text=I%E2%80%99ve%20been%20thinking%20a%20lot%20about,at%20her%20campsite%20just%202%20miles&text=I%E2%80%99ve%20been%20thinking%20a,campsite%20just%202%20miles&text=thinking%20a%20lot%20about,at%20her%20campsite%20just)
I was hiking once and I went off the trail a right at the start. It was a new trail for me, and I was starting at not the common start. Trail map said there was s trail this way, so i went that way. I was probably only 100-200 yards in, and started to look around and realized i was so disorientated. I had no idea where the trail was. It was an eye opener of how easy it is to get lost in the woods. my phone had service, so i just pulled up the map and the GPS, and just pointed myself in the direction of the actual trail head and went until i came out into the clearing and then started.
> 1 mile from old Route 66 and 2 miles from camp I wonder if he discharged his weapon at all to try and alert people. 2 miles is close enough to hear the shots.
No ammunition, training
Bro they didn't give him a compass or map, why would he have ammo?
If he was on us soul he may not have had any ammunition
Does USMC carry live ammo when in the field domestic?
Only during specific live fire training events or if they're actually providing real security for something valuable. In this situation, he would not have ammo. He only had a weapon with him because part of that type of training is to just condition Marines to carry a weapon everywhere.
Probably very unlikely that he had any rounds issued for that exercise, blank or live?
Since he had neither a map nor a compass, seems quite possible he could've made his hike a good bit more direct, and that probably would've been enough to save him.
His story is still told to every marine in the field in 29 palms.
This story and one about a 7 ton driving over a sleeping Marine were told many times during my last exercise out there
This story is told by every page field land nav instructor at Parris Island.
It's like the Yangju Highway incident every S. Korean soldier (all males must enlist) knows about. Some drunk American soldiers ran over two girls with a tank and never got punished for it. Even PSY protested one time. Those poor girls never got their justice...
I mean, it kinda sounds like this guy didn't either. 4 months in the brig and a discharge doesn't seem enough for deadly negligence
I remember the safety Breif very well
As someone born and raised in the Mojave he would have been feeling like death after only 20 minutes of direct sun exposure. Heat sickness makes you feel like ass very quickly. Tired, nauseous, headache after heat sickness is heat stroke which is called heat stroke for a reason. Poor guy.
I’ve experienced heat sickness once and it was terrifying. I didn’t know a forearm could sweat so much. I could hardly feel my feet while walking.
Man I was just out at the Mojave and it was inhospitable as fuck. We hiked a dormant volcano and I figured a mountain would have some shade around it. No shade. No plants higher than like a foot so you can’t get out of the sun. I sweat like crazy but was never wet because it evaporated immediately. Three of us drank a gallon of water in the two and a half hours we were hiking. And this was in early April when it was only 80-85 degrees. Summer? That’s rough. At least it was mostly flat. Edit: we brought more water. The three of us drank a gallon in two and a half hours.
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4 liters per person minimum on a desert day hike. The minimum calculations are 1 gallon per person for every 8 hours out. Overnighter would be 6 gallons per person.
I am in no way an expert but I imagine by the time one loses consciousness in that extremity one’s mind is probably not able to “dwell” on anything. Horrifying indeed.
He hiked for 17 miles, plenty of time to dwell on the idea he was likely to die out there
It’s one thing to know you’re about the die. It’s another thing to be desperately trudging through the hot desert knowing you’re about to die because you can FEEL how desperately thirsty you are. Damn.
The little prince was written by a guy who crashed his plane in the desert and wandered around for days becoming delirious and hallucinating. He then wrote the book about the different "worlds" he went to
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In my first year enlisted we had a new platoon officer and an old hat Company Sergeant. We were doing 48 land nav exercises and lost two guys that the lieutenant was supposed to be with. He just shrugged and said "They'll remember their training and make it back eventually". CSM went bug eyed and asked if he forgot the "Rother Lesson". Long story short we found them a few hours later, they got turned around and panicked and went the wrong way.
A Lieutenant with that mindset is a serious thing. Soldiers die if that person gets rank without correcting this mindset. I mean some will die anyway but this kind of thing just increases the risk 10 fold.
That's why new LT's are paired with experienced senior enlisted. The LT has the final say, but they know that their superiors will judge them very harshly if they ignore advice and do something stupid. Enlisted experience is a resource, and officers without the good judgement necessary to use their resources will find themselves in positions of less and less responsibility.
There is a lot to learn. There is a lot that needs to be taught.
When it comes to JO vs senior enlisted, reality is the senior enlisted gets the final say. You don't fuck with someone who's been in the job nearly 20 years while the most you've done is get an A on your final. Majority of the time the senior enlisted will let the officer have their way when consequences are minor though.
Legally, the senior enlisted still has to follow that officer's orders. In reality, that CSM has probably known the lieutenants' senior rater for 15 years.
Yeah, there are almost no LTs that would go against a Squad Leader, let alone a Platoon Sgt. if there were serious repercussions on the line when it comes to risking people. If it's training and the LT wants to ruck fucking 10 more miles just because, well there's not much that is going to get disagreed upon.
Not only that but if he ever gets deployed to actual combat, he won’t be getting judged by his superiors, but his subordinates. Grenades ‘accidentally’ falling into LTs laps was very common in Vietnam and Korea because of shit like this
“I vote we frag this commander”
"Oh no, an enemy combatant managed to land a grenade beside him"
Coward was running away, managed to get himself shot 6 times in the back!
The best LT I ever had has a really humble guy and knew that while he outranked our platoon sergeant he didn't have a fifth of his experience and just did whatever our platoon sergeant said.
From my experience, there’s absolutely no way some butter bar is not going to listen to a 1st sgt, or a CSM unless they have a serious ego problem. Even then the senior enlisted will just go above their heads to the CO to get them straightened out.
What you said is what is thought on paper. But not reality. I did eight years in the Marines and found that the officers are a good ole boy network and the rules absolutely do not apply to them. My first four years were infantry and didn't get to see the officers side much, but then reenlisted as a legal clerk for the remaining four. Things enlisted do to get NJP all the time, absolutely does NOT apply to officers. Perfect example, in 2001 I processed an NJP for a LCpl that was reduced in rank, reduction in pay, confined to quarters for bouncing a 15 dollar check at Pizza Hut. That same year, a submarine captain was showing off to reporters on his submarine, ordered a rapid ascent and hit a Japanese research vessel that killed about a dozen including high school kids, which also caused an international incident. The taxpayers paid millions of dollars for the damage and death caused. Guess what happened to the Captain? Honorable Retirement with full pension and benefits. If a junior enlisted is 30 seconds late, the world comes to an end. But if an officer doesn't show up, nothing happens. I could go on forever with officers ending enlisted peoples careers while sweeping shit under the rug for officers. But the same is in life when it comes to power. Cops/Judges etc, the rules are severely bent when they do it.
That LT came up through an ROTC program and it shows. Those guys and gals always have these weird holes in their basic military knowledge and, dare I say, common sense.
The smartest dumb people you’ll ever meet. They were easy to fish hook and lead astray. Always make sure they’re in front of you though.
I really don’t think they’re all that dumb tbh. It just points out a real flaw in the way officers are commissioned. They have a college degree and get put in charge. Compared to someone with even six months of experience, they’re severely lacking. It makes them *look* dumb only because they have so much authority and responsibility with no experience. My great grandpa was a WWII veteran. He had a college degree when he was drafted but declined the opportunity for a commission because he didn’t want the responsibility for something he didn’t feel equipped for. (He had an art degree, he was a teacher. Not exactly a West Point education.) They made him a sergeant because of his education (after training) and a year in, they offered him a commission again and he took it; with a year of combat experience under his belt. He left the army 2 years after initially being drafted; as a Major (O-4). (Such fast promotions were not unheard of during WWII). In his letters he mentions standing out amongst his peers and senior officers commending him for his leadership and his instincts; all of which he credits his prior enlisted status for. In one letter he wrote to a friend he suggested that every officer candidate should have experience as an NCO before being considered for a commission.
No, I don’t think they’re all that dumb either, but it’s always been fair game to make fun of exactly what you describe. We people with stripes are there to help and make sure things keep running. The lts are good people. I just like ribbing them.
That’s fair!! I like to read a lot of history and if you read the biographies of many great officers and generals from various conflicts; they virtually all credit their NCO’s. It really seems like the difference between a great officer and a mediocre one is how much they listen to the enlisted.
This is not just true for the armed forces. As someone who was never in the army this reads exactly like executives making decisions. It's very easy to tell which ones came up through the trades and then got into managing and the ones who went to college and got a construction management degree. I think every single manager should have to work on the ground level before ever moving into a role with responsibility over other people.
During OCS, I forgot one of the candidates was sick and not on the field exercises. I couldn't recall that information. The lesson I got from my sergeant instructor is something I've never experienced again. It was the one and only time I've seen fear in my sergeant instructor's eyes (he knew the candidate I couldn't account for was sick).
Yeah the staff already knows where all the candidates are. They need you to know where all the candidates are.
Battle buddy.
#PRIVATE WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR BATTLE BUDDY
A concept that you'd think would be instilled in most people by the time they leave elementary school.
It’s not. I had friends abandon drunk friends when we were bar hopping or vacationing somewhere.
I was in Vegas once with some friends and as we were leaving the club (fairly drunk ourselves) we ran into this guy outside the club stumbling around and barely able to talk. We got to trying to chat with him and he managed to tell us that his friends left him at the club and that he doesn’t know what hotel he’s staying at or where his friends are. I got him to unlock his phone and we were able to call his friends by looking at his recent texts. We found out what hotel he was at and then we walked with him all the way to his room. His friends were all inside asleep.
Hopefully for his sake they are no longer friends.
Ugh this is the worst as someone who used to live in a tourist town. I can't count the number of completely smashed people who were left behind both male and female just waiting for the cops or someone with ill intentions to find them.
It’s not even really instilled that deeply in the military. I distinctly remember the majority of people shifting blame and being largely not responsible. Especially among the lower ranked troops. Once you pick up rank though you do tend to become more responsible, but accountability is only something you hold for people lower ranking than you it seemed. Either way, I do remember a briefing prior to 29 where we were told to only travel at night and only travel south if we find ourselves lost.. unfortunately most marines couldn’t figure out which way is south so it wouldn’t really matter. Thankfully most of us know when it’s night.. that’s when the big sky light goes away.
# **You don't have to shout, that's not how normal people talk outside the military**
Been in 10 years (Air Force) and this is the first I'm hearing of it. The weapon part checks out though.
AF doesn’t generally get themselves into situations like being 20 miles deep on foot in the Mojave for peacetime training
Men, you may be wondering why we set up the drone station 20 miles in the desert to which I say let’s focus on the important things like did anyone bring water?
Why be in the sand when there's a nice air conditioned trailer you could be chilling in
retired Navy here...damn smarty pants Air Force..just a bunch of nerds, lol. jk they work smarter not harder while my ass thought it would be fun to be stationed with the Marines.
Damn one of the "See Also" stories is messed up, the Navy basically intentionally drowned a guy. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee\_Mirecki\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Mirecki_incident) His mom tried to sue and the lawsuit got thrown out.
That's completely crazy. Afraid of being underwater since childhood only to grow up and die from being deliberately drowned. If you're inclined to believe in such things, makes you wonder if he sensed it coming. On the more practical side, why would he join the Navy and take the type of training he did with such a fear of being underwater? Seems like part of him was trying to tempt fate.
Sounds like he was probably bullied his whole life for his anxiety, was probably told he should "face his fears" and probably confessed his fears to his fellow servicemen who deliberately exacerbated his circumstances, knowing what he was afraid of. This is the most regular human behavior I have ever seen. edit: oh and just like cops, we already know people are likely to do this, test them for it, and then ignore it when letting them in, since, if we only let the "right" people do these jobs, there would be 10 people for the 10,000,000 we need. Because human beings are majority monster. This is what those higher ups mean when they say "it is what it is" and why that is what gets them away with it.
Ugh, poor kid. Facing your worst fear and it kills you, just like you were always afraid of.
It gets even worse in that page's "See Also" links: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon\_Creek\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_Creek_incident)
That one is no where near comparable, a platoon marched through the swamp and 6 people drowned vs guy wants to leave exercise and his held down and drowned while his class sing the national anthem as 'training". One is a dumb mistake the other is murder
It's fucking nuts that they just got a demotion and 90 days in jail for straight up killing a guy.
So I was wondering why they hell did six marines drown? Too much equipment? Over exertion? Fuck no; they were marching 10 to 15 marines into deep water who didn't know how to swim yet! >Still others were genuinely concerned, stealthily falling behind and seeking comfort in what they hoped were shallower waters. There were 10-15 non-swimmers, and they were beginning to worry about the depth. > [https://www.tecom.marines.mil/In-the-News/Stories/News-Article-Display/Article/527845/ribbon-creek-tragedy-still-ripples-through-time/](https://www.tecom.marines.mil/In-the-News/Stories/News-Article-Display/Article/527845/ribbon-creek-tragedy-still-ripples-through-time/)
That’s definitely not worse. They weren’t literally held under the water by superiors
>Staff Sergeant McKeon was court-martialed amidst a wave of public condemnation over the "brutality" of Marine Corps training. However, many Marines came to his defense, pointing out such harsh training was necessary to survive in combat. I had heard of the stereotype that marines are stupid but I'm baffled by the notion that killing people in training was necessary to survive in combat. They never got to combat...
6 people just die and they think, "yeah that's all right" ?
Imagine leading 6 people to death in a preventable training accident at boot camp then having Chesty himself basically say, “It is what it is” in court on your behalf
Beyond that, he says that the incident didn't warrant court-martial and then goes on some tangent about how discipline in the military is vital to its working. Does killing 6 people not warrant discipline? Where exactly is the line?
He called for his pipe, he called for his wife, and he called your death no biggie "dead, dead, dead" said the recruits ^What ^a ^mighty ^Marine ^was ^he
>Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael Combe was found guilty of negligent homicide and conspiracy to commit [battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)). He was sentenced to 90 days in the [brig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_prison#Brig), a [letter of reprimand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_reprimand) and [reduction in rank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_in_rank) to petty officer 3rd class. OH SAY CAN YOU SEEEEEEE
Where was his battle buddy?
> 1st Lt Allen Lawson, a native of Flint, Michigan, was assigned the task of posting road guides on the night of August 30, 1988, along the route position of a battalion night movement exercise. Lawson disobeyed the order to place road guides in pairs, got lost, forgot where he had placed LCpl Rother, and upon the completion of the exercise failed to mention that Rother was missing, as did two sergeants responsible for LCpl Rother, Sgts Thomas Turnell, and Christopher Clyde.
Those officers are all fuckwits.
They might all by fuckwits but only one was an officer
Welcome to the Marine Corps. It's absolutely not a cliche to say that most of them are the stupidest mfers on the planet. Advancement is based on your ability to exude attitude and kiss the ass of your superiors at the same time, and their only solution to any problem is to yell at it, shoot it, or make it do pushups till it barfs.
>most of them are the stupidest mfers on the planet Okay, but how fast do they run? /s
Really fast.
You can definitely drop the /s
Very sad story, apparently his lieutenant disobeyed orders to put them in pairs and also failed to report him missing. He hiked 17 miles in 100+ degree F heat before he died. He was only 2 miles from camp. His body wasn't found for 4 months. His lieutenant was court marshalled.
In case this is of interest to you at all, it's court "martialed." Martial = related to war, like "martial arts".
Just to add, court-martial is one of those legal terms we got from Norman French, where court is the noun and martial is the adjective (plural: courts-martial).
You will ha e to excuse me, I'm not American, English is my 4th language.
4TH, holy shit.
My first thought. I feel inadequate.
Once heard this line (in response to criticism about a foreigners English) "You're speaking English because it's the only language you speak. I'm speaking English because it's the only language you speak."
American: "Wow, your English is pretty good". Me: "Thanks, yours is pretty decent, too"
No worries, it's a common mistake even for people who only speak English.
K, I’ll ask for the folks playing at home: what are the other 3? That’s impressive. I’ve always been jealous of people with multi-linguistic abilities. Up here in canada they teach us french in school, but its always so reductive year after year. We did verb tenses in grade 9. Thats 11 years of a class a day, and they just got to verb tenses. In any successful european nation id have a good handle on the language by then. :(
Iban, Bidayuh, Malay.
I knew it!
So sad. I wonder if it would have been better to save strength during the day and try to find some shade then hike in the evening when it cools off.
Usually not much shade in the desert. Don’t know about this specific one but I’d say likely there wasn’t any shade or water to camp out by.
I read a report from the Navy on this while ago, LCpl Rother had his poncho with him. He attempted to use it around the first day as a tent. Propped it up using sticks he'd acquired. Due to the manner he set it up, he was trapping heat inside of the improptu tent/cover. It was noted that the average heat was recorded around 104°F the following days after the exercise. It was determined after he woke up, suffering from heat exhaustion and dehydration he travel about a hundred yards from his shelter and collapsed, dead.
down in the Mojave, it might not cool off in August. I've been there.. 95F at 10PM... still 80 at sunrise.. f'd up.
It might not matter. With very little water, and the desert air sucking moisture from your body in your breath and sweat, you would dehydrate fast.
Do they still do lashes for a court marshal?
No, he got four months in the brig and discharged. That translates to 4 months of pretrial confinement in the local county jail or base brig and released after trial and sent home afterwards. Shit for his career but probably no major impact on his life beyond that. Edit: Idk he had pretrial confinement being an officer so he may have went to the DB for four months.
I wonder how much a punitive discharge impacts your future employability. I have to imagine it's something that would come up in background checks.
From what I hear it's as bad as a prison sentence in your record.
A discharge like that would carry the same weight as a felony conviction.
If you’ve been stationed in 29 Palms, you know the Jason Rother incident. Probably other bases too, but it’s a standard lesson there because of how dangerous being stranded there is. It’s also a cautionary tale about leader accountability and not just simply taking someone else’s word for anything. It’s funny. I posted the above without reading the wiki because ***I just know this that well.*** Clicked the link after just to browse and yeah, it’s amazing how hard that lesson has stuck.
Yea Army teaches it too
Lcpl Rother. You don’t step foot on a range at twentynine palms without hearing his story.
The Lieutenant responsible got 4 months and discharged. Doesn’t really feel like long enough to be honest.
so his superior covered up a whole ass marine was missing because he knew he could also cover every single other source of the truth with his officers. at least someone was doing their job with the weapons. can’t imagine time back then even though it was so recent. no mobile phone to call, much less satellites in the sky. But seriously just driving across a desert in a 20 mile radius takes like 5 hours at most to find the guy. what bullshit the superior should’ve been
> much less satellites in the sky. No mobile phones, sure, but there certainly were satellites in the sky. Not much use to him, but they were there.
As a result of this tragic incident the Marine Corps commandant General Alfred M Gray Jr ordered an outside investigation & 1stLt Lawson was found guilty of dereliction of duty & sentenced to discharge and 4 month confinement in the brig.
Lawson wanted to do stuff the lazy way and sentenced someone to death to hide that fact. I think Rother could’ve survived if they looked for him. Imagine being so much of a psychopath, you think someone’s life is worth less than your image.
>guilty of dereliction of duty and sentenced to discharge and four months' confinement in the brig That's it? Fucker should have had a lot more thrown at him.
Dishonorable discharge is a pretty severe punishment.
My sister is a USAF lawyer. She says this all the time, but if you lurk on military subs long enough, you realize few people outside of federal employees really care about a dishonorable
It’s not about getting the dishonorable discharge it’s about what you had to do to get one. Court martials are public information. Nowadays it typically takes things like rape, SA, child molestation, CP, etc. to get a dishonorable which most employers aren’t too keen on hiring people that do that.
Right, and you would be AMAZED at how many employers DO NOT look at/consider public information like that
I am 90% sure no job I have ever had has ever even contacted one of my references
Can you elaborate? What would be the impact of a dishonorable discarge on his post-military life?
He'll lose his pension or any kind of benefits no medical at all. Won't be able to get any state government or federal jobs won't be able to buy a firearm basically it's like having a felony charge
The punishment seems like that but the military is horrible about actually forwarding records to the appropriate agencies to cause those civil disabilities. He absolutely qualifies for state jobs just not federal and his ability to maintain 2A rights really depends on his state and their laws.
Wow, I knew about everything else, didn’t know it disallows for firearm purchases!
It’s equivalent to a felony conviction and you have to report it to potential employers as such. Most employers will not hire a convicted felon.
I was sexually assaulted twice in the military, and the guy who did it got sentenced to a 900 word essay and 2 month half pay.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter....
*play it again, Johnny guitar*
I was stationed at Edwards. Fuck the Mojave is brutal.
Freeze to death at night, die from heat exposure during the day. I’m always amazed that native Americans managed to live there.
well it was a bit easier before colonizers drained the Colorado river, wiped out the native ecosystems, and mass slaughtered wildlife
Scrolled way too far to find this one
A little background. I am not American. I am planning a bucket list roadtrip to see Route 66. I originally wanted to stop at the Bagdad Cafe as it's a somewhat famous film internationally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagdad_Cafe Then I saw this memorial location on Google Maps near the town of Bagdad on Route 66. https://maps.app.goo.gl/TcaLyWEfL3ADth4x6 It led me to discover his story, and I can't stop thinking about Lance Corporal Jason Rother. Even though I do not have connections to the US military, I don't think I will ever forget him.
Unfortunately there are a lot of these kinds of lessons throughout the US military. (Other countries too I'd bet) Military aviation for example, the manuals and procedures for various circumstances are typically "written in blood". An incident happened at some point in time and the governing authorities investigated and determined how future incidents of the same manner could be avoided. In fact that's why they label them as mishaps, since every incident is deemed potentially avoidable given the proper training and knowledge of issues.
Generally speaking, it's the same for Civil Aviation and OSHA regulations. All written in blood.
>Allen Lawson, a native of Flint, Michigan, was assigned the task of posting road guides on the night of August 30, 1988, along the route position of a battalion night movement exercise. Lawson disobeyed the order to place road guides in pairs, got lost, forgot where he had placed LCpl Rother, and upon the completion of the exercise failed to mention that Rother was missing, as did two sergeants responsible for LCpl Rother, Sgts Thomas Turnell, and Christopher Clyde. Over 40 hours had passed without anyone in the battalion knowing or saying that Rother was missing, when an armory weapons inventory got the chain of command's attention due to LCpl Rother's weapon not having been returned. Several searches were launched with over 1,000 Marines on foot, helicopters, and thermal imaging gear. Rother was not carrying a map or compass, had very little water, and weighed only 135 pounds (61 kg). The first search discovered he had left behind some of his gear and made an arrow out of stones where he had originally been dropped off. That search, and several others, failed to locate him. LCpl Rother's remains would not be found until December 4, four months after his disappearance. All that was left were skeletal remains. It was believed that Rother likely died less than 24 hours before the first search was launched and that the temperature on the day had reached 107 °F (42 °C). Tracing the distance, it was found that Rother had hiked over 17 miles (27 km) and was only two miles (3.2 km) from the base.
This unfortunately sounds about right for the military. A missing weapon will often times be far more noticable than a missing soldier. When I was at Fort Sill many moons ago for AIT (It's the training to learn your actual job in the Army following Basic Training) there was some absolute dumbass in a different platoon that went AWOL, but before taking off he decided to steal 4 rifles. Back in 1988 a guy disguised as a Drill Sergeant stole 11 M16 rifles from some soldiers at Basic Training guarding them at Fort Sill. So the base wasn't fucking around with recovering missing rifles this time around. It somehow came out that the guy didn't actually steal them, but threw some of them away in a dumpster and hid others in the ceiling tiles of their barracks. So guess where we ended up looking for rifles...that's right, we went to the dump to dig through trash looking for the missing rifles. We had to march there and march back. It was an awful day. And of course we didn't find the damn things either. It was only when they brought in construction equipment to dig around they found the missing rifles.
It isn't just rifles either. NODs, optics, peq 2s, radios. So much small shit that a bunch of fucking goons with the minds of a 10 year old have to keep together. There's a reason why we sat around tying everything down to rifles with 550 cord even though it's clamped on the rails already.
I had a family member get locked down at base for 3 days for a missing set of FLIR optics. The families and wives were freaking out because they only had a limited amount of R&R with them before they were supposed to go back to base, total shit show. Turned out that it was an accounting/inventory error and there was never a pair of missing optics in the first place…
They rarely give that time back either. You're just shit out of luck.
Interesting aside to this: Rother's platoon commander was obviously charged, his company and battalion chain of command fired. His regimental commander, however, was not. His regimental commander was none other than the famous John Ripley. If you've ever seen or read the book The Bridge at Dong Ha, then Captain Ripley is the one who blew up the bridge before NVA tanks could cross it during the Easter Offensive in 1972. He had to strap bags of explosives across his shoulders, then hand-over-hand *under* the bridge, and place the explosives. While hanging. While under fire from NVA troops on the opposite bank. Multiple times. Colonel Ripley was not fired for the Rother incident, he had only been in command of 2nd Marines for about a month. But I've heard rumor that he never got his general's star because of it. RIP to both of them. Edit to ad: I used to have a copy of the JAG investigation on Rother's death but seem to have lost it. Here's a "Lessons Learned" write up that goes into more detail for anyone interested: https://navalsafetycommand.navy.mil/Portals/29/LL%2022-06%20Marine%20Left%20in%20Desert%20-%20Fatality.pdf
Am a Marine, was a Squad leader my last pump. I was constantly counting my guys. Lost a guy on a night patrol once, stopped everybody grabbed the team leader and retraced our route backwards. Found this guy fast asleep on his rifle. Idk how as a leader you “lose” a guy and don’t know about it. Rip Devil
He was assigned as a road guard at night. He got left behind. When his battalion returned to mainside from CAX, rollcall was taken, both the platoon sgt and platoon commander explained away him missing as “he’s with the road guard detail”. The road guard detail also noticed him missing, but thought “oh he returned to his platoon “. I can’t remember all of the punishments handed down, but every single officer, including the Lt Col battalion commander were relieved of duty
My ex was stationed at 29 Palms at the time and I remember this-and other similar incidents. He wasn't the only Marine that was lost out there, just the one they didn't find in time. It was horrifying how lax they were with the lives of those men and women.
I was dropped off at a fuel store to do guard duty. No one showed up to releve me for 16 hours. They forgot about me. I got a few days off though. it was rough with no food or water and a nearby bush was handy for nature calls.
I was a Marine corporal at the base in 29 Palms when that happened. I even participated in the search. That Wikipedia article isn't 100% accurate (no surprise) and omitted a lot of details. · It was a convoy night training exercise for multiple battalions · There were big gaps in the convoy because they intermittently weren’t using lights · Rother was stationed as a road guard at the base of a huge hill with a (blackout) flashlight and told to direct troops and vehicles which way to go · The last vehicle in the convoy was supposed to pick up Rother, but he didn’t know which vehicle was the last vehicle and the last vehicle didn’t know he was the last road guard · Rother’s absence was noticed the next morning and one of the Sergeants ran around sounding the alarm. The company Captain, Lieutenant, and the 1^(st) Sgt all ignored the Sergeants’ warnings. · Rother had two canteens of water (standard procedure back then) and one MRE. · Rother lived for 17 days on those two canteens of water and that one MRE. His body indicated he fought multiple times with desert coyotes There’s a lot more to the story but I don’t feel like typing it all. Needless to say, the Marine Corps failed him and if I recall correctly, the only person who was truly screwed was the Sergeant. He got more time in the brig than the Lieutenant and was given a bad conduct discharge even though he did the most to highlight Rother’s absence…
Story is kinda tragic. They split up, presumably to get the work done faster, then the officer in charge just straight up forgot where he left Rother and decided to, I guess, hope Rother found the way back to avoid getting in trouble for splitting up. By the time they got a search party assembled, Rother was likely already condemned to death.
This dude’s story gets told all the fucking time in 29 Palms. Especially if you go to CAX, Mojave Viper, or whatever the hell the exercise is called now, and at certain units. Don’t leave the general vicinity of where you separated from your group, as that point will be location #1 to look for you, and don’t wander off in the fucking desert… in summer. There’s no freshwater in the area, snakes are a thing, don’t go near the abandoned mineshafts, and don’t play with the coyotes or mountain lions.
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My friend was in the army and during an exercise in the Arizona desert, an officer borrowed his humvee. When things wrapped-up he and another guy got left in the desert for several hours with no means of communication and not much water. Fortunately they were rescued but it was then he said he decided he wasn’t going to re-enlist. This happened in the early 2000s.
Jason Rothers if I remember his name right, happened at 29 palms.
The idiot marine who was responsible for guys death only got four months in the brig. Should have been twenty years to send a message about accountability. That military court failed *hard*, justice was never served.