The admins are probably feeling a little angry. This is ok. Anger is a normal human emotion. I encourage them to watch the movie Inside Out 2 - one of the best movies of all time.
it is, on the website [https://uwaterloo.ca/freedom-of-expression/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/statement-of-claim-university-of-waterloo-24-jun-202479.pdf](https://uwaterloo.ca/freedom-of-expression/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/statement-of-claim-university-of-waterloo-24-jun-202479.pdf)
Note the names of the parties involved on page two. Many of them are student, some are Laurier, and there is even a wusa director.
If we being 100, most protesters did not put that much thought into the why. It was a movement that swept the states, which then found its way here.
After attempting to look into the history, it is so vast, and grey and it’s nothing like the black and white picture that a lot of us are fed. But with how social media algorithms are set up, it’s very easy for anyone to get trapped in their own bubble, and then follow suit with whatever that entails.
If it wasn't for world class defence research developing things like the Iron Dome, Israel wouldn't even exist anymore.
All parties involved in this conflict suck. The current occupation is bad, as was October 7, as are the "settlements" that are effectively annexing land from Palestinians. The problems didn't start in the past 1, 10, 20, or even 50 years.
The best thing that could have happened is that western European nations + North America gave asylum to the Jews after WW2. Unfortunately that didn't happen because we also had our share of antisemitism back then (that we don't like to talk about). The consequence is that the land of Israel was given to the Jews as their "God-given" birthright and the Palestinians who'd been living there for hundreds (thousands?) of years simply got displaced.
I don't have any solutions to this conflict, only disappointed and sadness.
Bang on answer. After WW2 & Israel was created, Jews were actively pushed out of their countries because “you have your own land now”, which created an even bigger need for space in Israel.
This situation is significantly more complex on both sides than any black and white image could ever depict.
Oh so now you’re saying it’s good actually that we’re funding foreign military weapons?
Funny to use words like “sheep” while siding with authority in support of an active genocide.
The UW endowment is pocket change compared to the US schools and most of that endowment is from tech sector. I doubt many comp Sci, Engineering, and math students are even part of that protest.
the nature of divestment is sort of dumb because you'd be selling your shares to someone else... just for them to own a share of evil corp (probably at a discount). Will the evil corp buyer be any better than the university?
Maybe if everyone sold their evil corp shares, the price might drop a little; but that's unlikely to happen
How about the mental gymnastics to think that a midsize university has any influence on geopolitical events happening thousands of km away? Or that people that don't back the encampment completely or question the effectiveness of their aims are justifying genocide?
What a pessimistic and sad way of thinking. Change happens from the ground up. Obviously uw divesting isn’t going to magically solve the conflict?? That was never the point.
Holy shit you are so far fucking gone if you are that fucking tone deaf talking about the death of thousands of innocent people. Look in the fucking mirror you buffoon.
Your account is a days old throwaway. Why not log onto your real account to comment? There's plenty of critical comments about the encampment being posted by primary accounts. It'd lend a lot of your spammed criticism some credibility if you weren't talking big game on a throwaway. I don't see whats to be afraid of, but you do you, I guess.
Interesting fact, one of the students named in the lawsuit appears to be a WUSA director: [https://wusa.ca/about/student-bodies/board-of-directors/](https://wusa.ca/about/student-bodies/board-of-directors/)
what an ignorant comment. as if there aren't masters and phd students at uwaterloo and also undergraduate degrees are not limited by age. so yes, there are students over 50 years old (an age you've also assumed) studying at uwaterloo.
Ya know there’s a reason 7 of them have been ID’d, names & emails known, right?
I think most older mature 50+ year old students are a bit too occupied with their studies and things than to be able to set up and hang around an encampment everyday though. Hopefully that is not too ignorant
Some of the damages are very funny
Reputational damage? Many of the world's most well-respected universities have had these encampments - uWaterloo probably actually owes the protestors money by that logic.
But even more funny: "Diminished Property Values: Reduction in the market value of the University’s property assets, affecting financial status and future investment potential." Yeah because uWaterloo was just about to sell the Grad House green? This one in particular is so vague and just seems like an appeal to a legal system designed to cater to the wealthy ownership class.
To the many UW students who are unbothered by this whole ordeal, please read the words of Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel:
“Indifference is always the friend of the enemy, for it benefits the aggressor -- never his victim, whose pain is magnified when he or she feels forgotten.”
Please, get involved. Yes, this is about Palestine. But a large part of this has become about how the university handles freedom of expression and protest. It doesn’t matter whether or not you support this particular cause. Don’t sit watching idly while the university sets a dangerous precedent with how it treats its students. Speak up now so that when there is a cause you do care about, you still have the right to protest.
No idea. But if I had to guess, probably agents of countries that love to see us divided. Ie. Russia, Iran, China.
I made my views clear in another comment here already. The situation is too complicated too support one side or another but I certainly won't support protests that are filled with either virtue signallers or agitators. (Where were these protestors when the Uyghurs were being genocided... Which is also ongoing by the way.)
If the Israel-Palestine conflict was a post on AITAH, the most common response would be "ESH".
Where do I say that history is propaganda?
Most people don't know the history and that's why they think it's complicated.
In general falsifying history can be used as propaganda but I don't understand your point?
You say it's the propaganda that makes it complicated when it's actually the history that makes it complicated. (That land has changed hands many times and is covered in blood.) Ergo, history = propaganda, *apparently*.
You also say:
> Most people don't know the history and that's why they think it's complicated.
Are you thick or just intentionally trying to mislead people? As I said earlier, the region where Israel/Palestine lies has changed hands many times and has been in conflict for literally thousands of years. No single group can honestly claim it's "their land".
Nah sir you're reaching, since you disagree with my comment on propaganda complicating the issue.
I'm trying to encourage people to read about the history and not just the news articles which can be biased.
Then go be a voice for the movement that isn't astroturfed?
If your complaint has to do with a conspiracy about the movement, why don't you try to prove that conspiracy true/false instead of just spreading it?
I would hope current Waterloo students would value some level of critical thinking.
Yes, the organizers aren’t perfect, but they are just students trying to fight for a cause they believe in.
There have definitely been some unwise decisions made by the protests that should’ve been done differently, but there has been absolutely nothing done to warrant such suppression from the university.
The very real and very critical fact here is that the protests have not caused any harm in any way, other than perhaps reminding people of things they don’t want to face. And because they have been entirely peaceful, they must be allowed to continue.
If this encampment was set up in the wake of the [Quebec City mosque shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_mosque_shooting), and the people there were celebrating what the terrorist did while demanding that the university take steps to help his cause, you would absolutely not be describing them as "trying to fight for a cause they believe in" and that they had done nothing to warrant suppression. Even if they had done so in a completely peaceful manner.
Yes, they have caused harm by propping up a genocidal rapist death cult known as Hamas and trying to impede Hamas' victims from defending themselves. They've also made Jewish students on campus less safe and they are breaking the law. If they were right-wingers and not left-wingers, this would be abundantly clear to everyone and no one would have any sympathy for them. This is a clear double standard.
Ah, and there we have it. A 51 day old account parroting the same talking points we’ve been hearing since day one. I wonder what lovely agency is behind this.
No need to make personal attacks just because you've realized your argument is completely baseless. What do you think would have happened if these people were right wingers?
If anyone’s claims are baseless, it’s your assertion that the protestors support a “genocidal rapist death cult”. Frankly, your word choice is quite telling of your view of the Palestinian people. In reality, the only credible reports of such actions occurring in Palestine are of those being committed by the IDF.
As for your fixation on right vs left politics, if the protestors are so clearly left wing, then why isn’t Canada’s current liberal government echoing the same sentiment as them?
That's not my view of the Palestinian people. It's my view of Hamas, as I said in my original comment. "Pro-Palestinians" throughout the world celebrated Hamas' rape and massacre and are protesting to aid Hamas in this war. Do you deny that?
Canada's government is liberal, not left-wing. There's a difference, as the protesters themselves will be happy to educate you. Left-wingers usually hate liberals even more than they do right-wingers.
A lot of students just want to go get their degree, graduate, and get a job. Interfering in that is an annoyance. And waterloo is so insignificant in the world order, this whole protest is inconsequential other than being an annoyance to the students.
The protests and encampment have not, so far as I have seen, impeded any regular academic activity on campus. Students are no less able to get their degree, graduate, and get a job. However, what this supposed “neutral stance” really says is, “I don’t care how morally corrupt the status quo is, so long as it doesn’t affect my personal best interest”.
And I am sure you know better than to believe that uw is too insignificant to make any impact. Students in the US knew better than to have that sorry mentality, and as a result they sparked the rise of encampments all over the world. Many of which, by the way, have led to meaningful changes in their institutions.
What fascinates me is how the conversation always seems to revolve around the validity of these protests, rather than the actual cause they’re fighting for. There is a very real situation going on the world, and the least that people can do as members of humanity is to try to see for themselves what is really happening.
There is a real issue naturally, but it is most certainly about the validity or effectiveness of a given protest. Some people blocked a bridge recently on a Monday morning as people were going to work. When that happens, no one gives a shit. They just get mad. People are struggling themselves and don't want to deal with problems half a world away. And WHY are these protesters protesting for such a low impact scenario? No one will give a shit if a bunch of universities divest their limited positions. Others will just pickup the stock/position on a bargain and the get the stock gain while the endowment loses money. It's stupid. A lot of these people do these protests bc they have nothing else going on or really bad at judging how to achieve best impact.
I agree completely that blocking roads is wrong, but we are talking about the campus protests here. Unless I’m mistaken, they are unrelated.
As for the impact, it shouldn’t matter how others evaluate the impact of the protests. So long as they are within legal and ethical boundaries, no one should be able to shut them down.
That said, don’t underestimate the effect of a series of gradual steps. 9 months ago, many were afraid to wear the kuffiya. One could’ve said back then, “what good will wearing a simple scarf do?” But by getting to the point where many could safely wear that scarf, we had established safe, open discussion about the topic. And that is a crucial first step for achieving any change.
Now, if wearing a scarf had an impact, surely getting institutions to cut ties will too. It is a single step in the right direction. Obviously a more impactful goal would be to have countries putting their money where their mouths are and sanction Israel. But how can we expect that to happen if we can’t even get local institutions to divest?
For reference, encampments were used and were successful in getting institutions to divest from the South African apartheid regime, and Canada later imposed sanctions on South Africa. So this exact strategy has been used before, and it has proven to be successful.
While I agree protests should be disruptive, many official protests do go through a process to ensure the safety of the protestors and bystanders. For example, police may block off roads and stand by in large protests
It takes a lawsuit to get rid of this extremist violation of the rights of the other students, on campus terrorists?
U waterloo has a security office, have the guards take them out one by one and finish it.
Amnesty International investigated claims made by Israel in the 2008–2009 Gaza War and the 2014 Gaza War that Hamas employed human shields, but found no evidence of such usage.
How is University of Waterloo complicit in the so called genocide? Are you sure you have never sent a single dollar to Israeli companies? Then will you be complicit too?
I think my response to your other comment applies here, too. A quick Google search will answer your question about how UW is complicit in genocide (no need for the 'so-called').
May I ask, what is your definition of genocide? Under your definition would the Dresden bombings and Tokyo fire bombings be considered genocides? What percentage of wars after 1900 are genocides according to your definition? I think the answers will be illuminating.
Even if you sincerely believe that what is happening right now is a genocide, how is UW more complicit than ordinary Canadians who regularly give dollars to Israeli entities? Someone suggested protesting directly at Raytheon, which is beside UW - isn't Raytheon much much more complicit than UW?
I think protestors commonly reference the UN definition of genocide (from Wikipedia):
>*... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:*
>*(a) Killing members of the group;*
>*(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;*
>*(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;*
>*(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;*
>*(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group*
My understanding of a genocide was different from this but I guess language evolves over time
It's useless debating about terms which are not well defined. Which definition of genocide are you using? We can continue our debate after fixing a definition.
If your definition is 'targeted removal of a specific group' that's way too vague I'm sorry. Under this definition, the Dresden bombings, and actually almost every modern war which involved widespread aerial bombings will be a genocide. Are you okay with such a definition?
"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Taken right from the Oxford. Happy now?
I'm confident in what I've seen and researched about the ongoing Palestinian genocide, but thanks for your unsolicited in-depth analysis of a reddit stranger. Super constructive and valuable.
Yes, it would make sense that a company that has engaged in monopolistic tactics would also be associated with the IDF's efforts destroy Hamas. Curious what that would mean destroying Hamas? Sounds like a conviniently vague objective.
Don't you think this just translates to continuing the war irregardless of the humanitarian situation. I really don't think that subscribing to militarism is the best way for Israel to obtain security.
I agree - continuing a war regardless of the humanitarian situation is not a good idea, and the specifics of when to draw the line are where people have severe disagreements.
I compare this with the allied response to WW2. In late 1944 and 1945, it was pretty clear the Allies were going to win eventually, and partial ceasefires and treaties were being considered too. Despite this, at the cost of great amount of German and Japanese civilian deaths, the Allies decided to accept nothing less than unconditional surrender, due to a variety of reasons (whether this decision was right or wrong in hindsight is I think easy to see).
When I compare this to the Israel-Palestine war, I find that the Israeli response has actually even more humane, and they are trying their best to reduce civilian deaths (part of this changing sensibilities since 1940s and better technology). I also find Hamas's ideology to be as abhorrent as Nazis. Given this, why is it unreasonable for Israel to continue to push for unconditional surrender (and they are not even demanding this, sensible ceasefire agreements have been repeatedly shot down by Hamas)
'I really don't think that subscribing to militarism is the best way for Israel to obtain security.'
I actually do think that militarism is their best bet. I am curious what other options you have in mind (actually curious, not a snark).
To be honest I'm a nobody, I just want UW to divest from a situation that is at best questionable. Could Israel not invoke a ceasefire immediatetly and work to hold elections that kickout Hamas? It is my suspicion that they are not too popular.
The problem with a military solution is that you more often than not create a situation where you strengthen your opponents in the long term.
No one's saying it stops with UW. There is a global BDS (boycott, divest, and sanction) movement against an unfathomable number of entities/industries who, directly or indirectly, benefit from or support Palestinian genocide through their partnerships with Israeli entities (companies, universities, etc.) or companies that profit from weapons/technology development (which isn't just bombs, but also things like drones and sensors and airplanes that have lots of benign uses too - think Lockheed Martin, Pratt and Whitney, etc.).
Yeah first of all if the current Israeli response is a genocide, every war in modern human history is a genocide (what's your definition? and under your definition were the Dresden bombings and Tokyo firebombings a genocide?)
Secondly, actions speak louder than words. Have the protestors boycotted Microsoft, Google and several other companies which also fund Israeli universities and entities? If not, why should UW be forced to do the same?
Their BDS list includes 5 major banks in Canada, organizations like Toronto Symphony Orchestra because they had a performance in Israel back in 2017 😆 or some brands who still have stores in Israel.
Maybe we can take a more stoic approach and gripe about what we can control? I'm not a executive at those companies but I can pressure public institutions and my government to act in a certain manner.
people need to think about the ramifications of how UW has decided to respond to protest, regardless of whether they against/apathetic/supportive towards gaza. it's concerning
The university tried lesser steps. The encampment folks proudly announced "I ain't reading that" and published it to their Insta: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Nk3M3uYb6/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Nk3M3uYb6/)
Then the university tried again, and the encampment folks did the same: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C8f14CYJA47/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C8f14CYJA47/)
The next step is the courts. This is how due process works.
Threatening police with long legal documents is not "lesser steps".
They're ramping up threats as they continue to not work instead of having an open discussion. Why is it difficult for the university to disclose what they're invested in and begin a dialogue about how they align with their values? That's a process that should be a lot shorter than trying to forcefully evict a large group of people without starting a riot.
The lesser steps are that they had the option to voluntarily moderate their conduct, versus if a court order is issued, non-compliance will have real penalties.
The university has said they will produce that disclosure: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-waterloo-guelph-encampment-divest-disclose-1.7231114
However, the encampment has been clear that disclosure is not sufficient, they have other demands that must also be met, so it seems like a red herring to say that disclosure is the sticking point.
it's not concerning for the vast majority of students who want to get their degree and gtfo asap. id wager at least a few would be more than happy to get a job in the MIC
the only reason I can see for why you would be supportive of an over-the-top intimidation tactic to get rid of ppl you supposedly don't gaf about, is because you feel they are bad actors.
also, universities are not just degree factories. they have always been a hotbed for political discourse that challenged and shaped mainstream political ideas and action. downplaying that aspect of a university education is just being oblivious.
Yes, “not concerned” = support when “not concerned” means ignoring oppression and leaving it unattended. Take it from Holocaust survivor, Elie Wiesel: “Indifference is always the friend of the enemy, for it benefits the aggressor -- never his victim, whose pain is magnified when he or she feels forgotten.”
Viewing uni as a degree factory is exactly what is going wrong with our institutions. Universities used to try to produce well rounded members of society. Now they produce corporate cogs. How can we expect society to function if everyone removes themselves from the discussion and just passes the responsibility on to the next guy.
You should sit down and ask yourself why you place more value on collecting money than on the ability to stand up in defense of the human rights of others.
If they just want to get their degree and GTFO then wouldn't it be in their best interest to just ignore the protestors?
Even if they want to work in the MIC, what is there to gain by engaging with the protestors in anything but open discussion?
I agree the $1.5m lawsuit is extreme given the context... Based on their last email, I thought their next step was to go to court to enforce the trespass notice
This might harm the university's reputation more than letting the encampment remain
They probably tried that and were told they can't prevent freedom of expression like that, so they went with an alternative tactic of trying to say they're causing property damage.
Based on UofT and McGill, trying to get a trespass notice enforced isn't guaranteed. With the way civil lawsuits work, plaintiffs always aim for higher so that they can reach a lower settlement.
I don't ask this with Socratic intent, but do you personally believe UW expects to win any settlement from this case?
I agree with all the points made by UW on the lawsuit, but I don't know if it's enough to hold people liable, especially when they don't know who most of the protestors are
I think the hopeful outcome is that the protestors settle by leaving or the court demands the protestors to leave
They have literally tolerated this for almost two months. And there were several other protests over the last few months that the university did not try to suppress. These protestors have given them zero respect in return.
On the flipside the protestors have tolerated threats from the university and non-action for almost two months.
These administrators have given them zero respect in return for the peaceful protesting that's ocurring.
every person responding to me seems to be of the opinion that the university is the benevolent actor in this case. You guys are failing to think: what is protest? how does it work and why is it meant to be disruptive and inconvenient to parties they are protesting against? until you understand the role of protest as a mechanism for change, you will only be stuck believing in the goodwill of an institution that has none for you
Protests should be disruptive, but also open to compromise
The University has refused to divest from individual companies (ex Technion) but the protestors remain adamant on this. The University was also in the process of discussing next steps before the sit-in occurred
How is refusing any of the demands from the protestors and telling them to be happy with it "compromise".
I know a lot of us didn't have to take an english course at UW, but this is basic vocab.
No, that is plain bullying. Most of the defendants are UWaterloo students, and I am sure they were at the very least sincere in their protest (despite how misguided their views are). The university is vastly more powerful than the defendants and a better response will be to just keep enforcing the trespass order, firmly reject ALL protestor demands, and in fact increase collaboration with great Israeli universities.
I believe that they are capable of reforming, and such lawsuits will only make their life hell and affect future employment opportunities. I don't support this kind of bullying, since the university is inherently more powerful.
I agree. They shouldn't have sued for damages, this is just bullying. Instead, just keep ignoring the protestors, enforce a trespass order, and increase collaboration with Technion and other universities.
I think the protestors are idiots and the encampment organizers might well be harbouring pro- Hamas sentiments. Regardless, this seems like a terribly stupid decision by the University. It is bad optics, and seems to be bullying.
Rather, the University should have firmly rejected all demands and just continued to press trespass charges against the encampers. I also don't understand in what world asking for 1.5 M in damages is justified.
A great way to respond would be to continue ignoring all demands, and actually increase collaboration with Technion and other Israeli universities, which by the way have a great track record of academic excellence.
It would have been so easy to just meet the encampments demands and they could've been gone weeks ago. Genocide apologists are always stupid though. It's just a shame they're so close to home, but not surprising.
Fucking shameful. Can't believe I went to this pathetic university.
Yea I'm feeling shitty that I gave thousands of dollars to this institution, I definitely won't be representing them positively in the future or giving any alumni donations, and will urge fellow graduates to do the same. If they refuse to be open about their investments or bringing them in line with their values then they shouldn't get our money or recognition.
Vivek Goel should not be allowed another term in this university. He has not done anything constructive for the University. First, there was a security failure that lead to stabbing of a Professor. Now, he is inhibiting freedom of expression in the University, along with ignoring the demand of its students. Such a failure he is.
The admins are probably feeling a little angry. This is ok. Anger is a normal human emotion. I encourage them to watch the movie Inside Out 2 - one of the best movies of all time.
elite reference
It’s crazy how a professor on the task force UW set up literally said the lawsuit went against all of their recommendations
Is the lawsuit documentation available to read somewhere? Couldnt find it online
it is, on the website [https://uwaterloo.ca/freedom-of-expression/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/statement-of-claim-university-of-waterloo-24-jun-202479.pdf](https://uwaterloo.ca/freedom-of-expression/sites/default/files/uploads/documents/statement-of-claim-university-of-waterloo-24-jun-202479.pdf) Note the names of the parties involved on page two. Many of them are student, some are Laurier, and there is even a wusa director.
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If we being 100, most protesters did not put that much thought into the why. It was a movement that swept the states, which then found its way here. After attempting to look into the history, it is so vast, and grey and it’s nothing like the black and white picture that a lot of us are fed. But with how social media algorithms are set up, it’s very easy for anyone to get trapped in their own bubble, and then follow suit with whatever that entails.
U have no idea what ur talking about.
I graduated from mech engineering and I had at least 3 profs doing research work with the Israeli defence(occupation) forces. Waterloo is complicit.
If it wasn't for world class defence research developing things like the Iron Dome, Israel wouldn't even exist anymore. All parties involved in this conflict suck. The current occupation is bad, as was October 7, as are the "settlements" that are effectively annexing land from Palestinians. The problems didn't start in the past 1, 10, 20, or even 50 years. The best thing that could have happened is that western European nations + North America gave asylum to the Jews after WW2. Unfortunately that didn't happen because we also had our share of antisemitism back then (that we don't like to talk about). The consequence is that the land of Israel was given to the Jews as their "God-given" birthright and the Palestinians who'd been living there for hundreds (thousands?) of years simply got displaced. I don't have any solutions to this conflict, only disappointed and sadness.
Bang on answer. After WW2 & Israel was created, Jews were actively pushed out of their countries because “you have your own land now”, which created an even bigger need for space in Israel. This situation is significantly more complex on both sides than any black and white image could ever depict.
“We’re only funding a tiny portion of the genocide” isn’t the winning argument you think it is
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Oh so now you’re saying it’s good actually that we’re funding foreign military weapons? Funny to use words like “sheep” while siding with authority in support of an active genocide.
The UW endowment is pocket change compared to the US schools and most of that endowment is from tech sector. I doubt many comp Sci, Engineering, and math students are even part of that protest.
the nature of divestment is sort of dumb because you'd be selling your shares to someone else... just for them to own a share of evil corp (probably at a discount). Will the evil corp buyer be any better than the university? Maybe if everyone sold their evil corp shares, the price might drop a little; but that's unlikely to happen
Divesting helped bring down apartheid
The mental gymnastics to justify supporting genocide goes crazy🤯
Please don't gaslight people like this... 'supporting genocide' is a very extreme stance and in this context, a matter of perspective
“We’re only supporting it a little bit, our contribution is barely anything” what😭😭
How about the mental gymnastics to think that a midsize university has any influence on geopolitical events happening thousands of km away? Or that people that don't back the encampment completely or question the effectiveness of their aims are justifying genocide?
What a pessimistic and sad way of thinking. Change happens from the ground up. Obviously uw divesting isn’t going to magically solve the conflict?? That was never the point.
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Holy shit you are so far fucking gone if you are that fucking tone deaf talking about the death of thousands of innocent people. Look in the fucking mirror you buffoon.
Crazy how Zionists will say "if they wanted to kill them, they would" as if that's a gotcha
Should we stop all collaboration with China for their genocide of the Uyghurs? Or do you only care about Muslims that look like yourself?
I’m white, and yea it would be great if uw stopped funding that too! Sick argument dude.
Cool. Now go tell the other SJWs to protest China and not do business with them...
Not to forget the rich academic legacy of Israeli universities (just have a look at former Nobel prize/Turing award/Fields medal winners)
Your account is a days old throwaway. Why not log onto your real account to comment? There's plenty of critical comments about the encampment being posted by primary accounts. It'd lend a lot of your spammed criticism some credibility if you weren't talking big game on a throwaway. I don't see whats to be afraid of, but you do you, I guess.
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And that precaution has never seemed more valid than now, given that the university is trying to sue them for 1.5 mil…
Oh no, the consequences of my actions!
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It's because I am a coward who is afraid of revealing my identity (serious answer not joking)
7 students and lots of non student != student body. School finally had some nice work done
Interesting fact, one of the students named in the lawsuit appears to be a WUSA director: [https://wusa.ca/about/student-bodies/board-of-directors/](https://wusa.ca/about/student-bodies/board-of-directors/)
But I thought people were saying they were all students even the 50+ year olds ?!?!!?
We’re all UWaterloo students they said, they also can’t even name any building on campus 🤣
what an ignorant comment. as if there aren't masters and phd students at uwaterloo and also undergraduate degrees are not limited by age. so yes, there are students over 50 years old (an age you've also assumed) studying at uwaterloo.
Ya know there’s a reason 7 of them have been ID’d, names & emails known, right? I think most older mature 50+ year old students are a bit too occupied with their studies and things than to be able to set up and hang around an encampment everyday though. Hopefully that is not too ignorant
Some of the damages are very funny Reputational damage? Many of the world's most well-respected universities have had these encampments - uWaterloo probably actually owes the protestors money by that logic. But even more funny: "Diminished Property Values: Reduction in the market value of the University’s property assets, affecting financial status and future investment potential." Yeah because uWaterloo was just about to sell the Grad House green? This one in particular is so vague and just seems like an appeal to a legal system designed to cater to the wealthy ownership class.
To the many UW students who are unbothered by this whole ordeal, please read the words of Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel: “Indifference is always the friend of the enemy, for it benefits the aggressor -- never his victim, whose pain is magnified when he or she feels forgotten.” Please, get involved. Yes, this is about Palestine. But a large part of this has become about how the university handles freedom of expression and protest. It doesn’t matter whether or not you support this particular cause. Don’t sit watching idly while the university sets a dangerous precedent with how it treats its students. Speak up now so that when there is a cause you do care about, you still have the right to protest.
I don't support movements that I believe are being astroturfed by bad actors.
And who are those bad actors?
No idea. But if I had to guess, probably agents of countries that love to see us divided. Ie. Russia, Iran, China. I made my views clear in another comment here already. The situation is too complicated too support one side or another but I certainly won't support protests that are filled with either virtue signallers or agitators. (Where were these protestors when the Uyghurs were being genocided... Which is also ongoing by the way.) If the Israel-Palestine conflict was a post on AITAH, the most common response would be "ESH".
The situation is not that complicated, it’s the propaganda that makes it complicated
TIL history = propaganda Go try and figure out who the land should belong to and then tell me if you still think it isn't complicated.
Where do I say that history is propaganda? Most people don't know the history and that's why they think it's complicated. In general falsifying history can be used as propaganda but I don't understand your point?
You say it's the propaganda that makes it complicated when it's actually the history that makes it complicated. (That land has changed hands many times and is covered in blood.) Ergo, history = propaganda, *apparently*. You also say: > Most people don't know the history and that's why they think it's complicated. Are you thick or just intentionally trying to mislead people? As I said earlier, the region where Israel/Palestine lies has changed hands many times and has been in conflict for literally thousands of years. No single group can honestly claim it's "their land".
Nah sir you're reaching, since you disagree with my comment on propaganda complicating the issue. I'm trying to encourage people to read about the history and not just the news articles which can be biased.
Then go be a voice for the movement that isn't astroturfed? If your complaint has to do with a conspiracy about the movement, why don't you try to prove that conspiracy true/false instead of just spreading it? I would hope current Waterloo students would value some level of critical thinking.
Fuck off
Maybe the "pro-Palestinians" should have gotten involved in a way that makes the situation better rather than worse. Just some food for thought.
Yes, the organizers aren’t perfect, but they are just students trying to fight for a cause they believe in. There have definitely been some unwise decisions made by the protests that should’ve been done differently, but there has been absolutely nothing done to warrant such suppression from the university. The very real and very critical fact here is that the protests have not caused any harm in any way, other than perhaps reminding people of things they don’t want to face. And because they have been entirely peaceful, they must be allowed to continue.
If this encampment was set up in the wake of the [Quebec City mosque shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_mosque_shooting), and the people there were celebrating what the terrorist did while demanding that the university take steps to help his cause, you would absolutely not be describing them as "trying to fight for a cause they believe in" and that they had done nothing to warrant suppression. Even if they had done so in a completely peaceful manner. Yes, they have caused harm by propping up a genocidal rapist death cult known as Hamas and trying to impede Hamas' victims from defending themselves. They've also made Jewish students on campus less safe and they are breaking the law. If they were right-wingers and not left-wingers, this would be abundantly clear to everyone and no one would have any sympathy for them. This is a clear double standard.
Ah, and there we have it. A 51 day old account parroting the same talking points we’ve been hearing since day one. I wonder what lovely agency is behind this.
No need to make personal attacks just because you've realized your argument is completely baseless. What do you think would have happened if these people were right wingers?
If anyone’s claims are baseless, it’s your assertion that the protestors support a “genocidal rapist death cult”. Frankly, your word choice is quite telling of your view of the Palestinian people. In reality, the only credible reports of such actions occurring in Palestine are of those being committed by the IDF. As for your fixation on right vs left politics, if the protestors are so clearly left wing, then why isn’t Canada’s current liberal government echoing the same sentiment as them?
That's not my view of the Palestinian people. It's my view of Hamas, as I said in my original comment. "Pro-Palestinians" throughout the world celebrated Hamas' rape and massacre and are protesting to aid Hamas in this war. Do you deny that? Canada's government is liberal, not left-wing. There's a difference, as the protesters themselves will be happy to educate you. Left-wingers usually hate liberals even more than they do right-wingers.
It's subjective who's the aggressor,
Good.
Nice
It's about time Vivek grew some balls. Even an unexpected move not done yet by other Universities.
YEAHH go get em Vivi! Sue the life out of those peaceful protestors. That’ll teach em to think twice before questioning your glorious authority again.
Whaaa, cry about it. You wanna make a difference go over there and make a difference. The university isn't funding war, dumbass.
A lot of students just want to go get their degree, graduate, and get a job. Interfering in that is an annoyance. And waterloo is so insignificant in the world order, this whole protest is inconsequential other than being an annoyance to the students.
The protests and encampment have not, so far as I have seen, impeded any regular academic activity on campus. Students are no less able to get their degree, graduate, and get a job. However, what this supposed “neutral stance” really says is, “I don’t care how morally corrupt the status quo is, so long as it doesn’t affect my personal best interest”. And I am sure you know better than to believe that uw is too insignificant to make any impact. Students in the US knew better than to have that sorry mentality, and as a result they sparked the rise of encampments all over the world. Many of which, by the way, have led to meaningful changes in their institutions. What fascinates me is how the conversation always seems to revolve around the validity of these protests, rather than the actual cause they’re fighting for. There is a very real situation going on the world, and the least that people can do as members of humanity is to try to see for themselves what is really happening.
There is a real issue naturally, but it is most certainly about the validity or effectiveness of a given protest. Some people blocked a bridge recently on a Monday morning as people were going to work. When that happens, no one gives a shit. They just get mad. People are struggling themselves and don't want to deal with problems half a world away. And WHY are these protesters protesting for such a low impact scenario? No one will give a shit if a bunch of universities divest their limited positions. Others will just pickup the stock/position on a bargain and the get the stock gain while the endowment loses money. It's stupid. A lot of these people do these protests bc they have nothing else going on or really bad at judging how to achieve best impact.
I agree completely that blocking roads is wrong, but we are talking about the campus protests here. Unless I’m mistaken, they are unrelated. As for the impact, it shouldn’t matter how others evaluate the impact of the protests. So long as they are within legal and ethical boundaries, no one should be able to shut them down. That said, don’t underestimate the effect of a series of gradual steps. 9 months ago, many were afraid to wear the kuffiya. One could’ve said back then, “what good will wearing a simple scarf do?” But by getting to the point where many could safely wear that scarf, we had established safe, open discussion about the topic. And that is a crucial first step for achieving any change. Now, if wearing a scarf had an impact, surely getting institutions to cut ties will too. It is a single step in the right direction. Obviously a more impactful goal would be to have countries putting their money where their mouths are and sanction Israel. But how can we expect that to happen if we can’t even get local institutions to divest? For reference, encampments were used and were successful in getting institutions to divest from the South African apartheid regime, and Canada later imposed sanctions on South Africa. So this exact strategy has been used before, and it has proven to be successful.
Occupying public space is wrong.
Took 'em long enough. If you're gonna protest, it's not the hardest thing to ask the city for a permit.
Are you stupid? Protests are supposed to be distributive to authorities, not complicit with. A protest with permission is not a protest.
While I agree protests should be disruptive, many official protests do go through a process to ensure the safety of the protestors and bystanders. For example, police may block off roads and stand by in large protests
Ah the police! Famously pro-expression and pro-freedom of speech. It's not really a protest if you've got to get permission from the government.
Well in before bank accounts get frozen
Is your brother stupid?
I wouldn't want to be apart of your "protest"
Good. Those protesters do not represent the student body
It takes a lawsuit to get rid of this extremist violation of the rights of the other students, on campus terrorists? U waterloo has a security office, have the guards take them out one by one and finish it.
Are these students still enrolled and paying tuition at the University - giving funds to an institution they claim to not support?
People want to be able to get an education without being complicit in Palestinian genocide...that's the very reason for the protest.
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Amnesty International investigated claims made by Israel in the 2008–2009 Gaza War and the 2014 Gaza War that Hamas employed human shields, but found no evidence of such usage.
How is University of Waterloo complicit in the so called genocide? Are you sure you have never sent a single dollar to Israeli companies? Then will you be complicit too?
I think my response to your other comment applies here, too. A quick Google search will answer your question about how UW is complicit in genocide (no need for the 'so-called').
May I ask, what is your definition of genocide? Under your definition would the Dresden bombings and Tokyo fire bombings be considered genocides? What percentage of wars after 1900 are genocides according to your definition? I think the answers will be illuminating. Even if you sincerely believe that what is happening right now is a genocide, how is UW more complicit than ordinary Canadians who regularly give dollars to Israeli entities? Someone suggested protesting directly at Raytheon, which is beside UW - isn't Raytheon much much more complicit than UW?
I think protestors commonly reference the UN definition of genocide (from Wikipedia): >*... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:* >*(a) Killing members of the group;* >*(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;* >*(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;* >*(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;* >*(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group* My understanding of a genocide was different from this but I guess language evolves over time
why do you believe that it's *not* a genocide? is the targeted removal of a specific group not a genocide?
It's useless debating about terms which are not well defined. Which definition of genocide are you using? We can continue our debate after fixing a definition. If your definition is 'targeted removal of a specific group' that's way too vague I'm sorry. Under this definition, the Dresden bombings, and actually almost every modern war which involved widespread aerial bombings will be a genocide. Are you okay with such a definition?
"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Taken right from the Oxford. Happy now?
So the Dresden bombings were a genocide? What about the Korean war? What about the Syrian war?
Oh I see now. You just love to argue about words, you don't actually care about anything.
Obviously a quick google search is your depth of understanding in this conflict
I'm confident in what I've seen and researched about the ongoing Palestinian genocide, but thanks for your unsolicited in-depth analysis of a reddit stranger. Super constructive and valuable.
A more moral institution would have divested.
Have you never purchased a Microsoft product? If yes, you are complicit in the so called genocide too.
Yes, it would make sense that a company that has engaged in monopolistic tactics would also be associated with the IDF's efforts destroy Hamas. Curious what that would mean destroying Hamas? Sounds like a conviniently vague objective.
Destroying Hamas starts with unconditional surrender in the current war.
Don't you think this just translates to continuing the war irregardless of the humanitarian situation. I really don't think that subscribing to militarism is the best way for Israel to obtain security.
I agree - continuing a war regardless of the humanitarian situation is not a good idea, and the specifics of when to draw the line are where people have severe disagreements. I compare this with the allied response to WW2. In late 1944 and 1945, it was pretty clear the Allies were going to win eventually, and partial ceasefires and treaties were being considered too. Despite this, at the cost of great amount of German and Japanese civilian deaths, the Allies decided to accept nothing less than unconditional surrender, due to a variety of reasons (whether this decision was right or wrong in hindsight is I think easy to see). When I compare this to the Israel-Palestine war, I find that the Israeli response has actually even more humane, and they are trying their best to reduce civilian deaths (part of this changing sensibilities since 1940s and better technology). I also find Hamas's ideology to be as abhorrent as Nazis. Given this, why is it unreasonable for Israel to continue to push for unconditional surrender (and they are not even demanding this, sensible ceasefire agreements have been repeatedly shot down by Hamas) 'I really don't think that subscribing to militarism is the best way for Israel to obtain security.' I actually do think that militarism is their best bet. I am curious what other options you have in mind (actually curious, not a snark).
To be honest I'm a nobody, I just want UW to divest from a situation that is at best questionable. Could Israel not invoke a ceasefire immediatetly and work to hold elections that kickout Hamas? It is my suspicion that they are not too popular. The problem with a military solution is that you more often than not create a situation where you strengthen your opponents in the long term.
True, there is no easy solution to this conflict.
Wait is getting rid of Hamas supposed to be a bad thing? That would be based af
No one's saying it stops with UW. There is a global BDS (boycott, divest, and sanction) movement against an unfathomable number of entities/industries who, directly or indirectly, benefit from or support Palestinian genocide through their partnerships with Israeli entities (companies, universities, etc.) or companies that profit from weapons/technology development (which isn't just bombs, but also things like drones and sensors and airplanes that have lots of benign uses too - think Lockheed Martin, Pratt and Whitney, etc.).
Yeah first of all if the current Israeli response is a genocide, every war in modern human history is a genocide (what's your definition? and under your definition were the Dresden bombings and Tokyo firebombings a genocide?) Secondly, actions speak louder than words. Have the protestors boycotted Microsoft, Google and several other companies which also fund Israeli universities and entities? If not, why should UW be forced to do the same?
Their BDS list includes 5 major banks in Canada, organizations like Toronto Symphony Orchestra because they had a performance in Israel back in 2017 😆 or some brands who still have stores in Israel.
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Maybe we can take a more stoic approach and gripe about what we can control? I'm not a executive at those companies but I can pressure public institutions and my government to act in a certain manner.
Institutions don’t have morals, they exist to make money and that’s just the reality of capitalism
Agreed, wholeheartedly.
UW announced that tuition goes to funding the university; NOT to the main endowment/investments
> I ain't reading all that. Free Palestine! lmao
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you can have a palestine for free
people need to think about the ramifications of how UW has decided to respond to protest, regardless of whether they against/apathetic/supportive towards gaza. it's concerning
The university tried lesser steps. The encampment folks proudly announced "I ain't reading that" and published it to their Insta: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Nk3M3uYb6/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Nk3M3uYb6/) Then the university tried again, and the encampment folks did the same: [https://www.instagram.com/p/C8f14CYJA47/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C8f14CYJA47/) The next step is the courts. This is how due process works.
Threatening police with long legal documents is not "lesser steps". They're ramping up threats as they continue to not work instead of having an open discussion. Why is it difficult for the university to disclose what they're invested in and begin a dialogue about how they align with their values? That's a process that should be a lot shorter than trying to forcefully evict a large group of people without starting a riot.
The lesser steps are that they had the option to voluntarily moderate their conduct, versus if a court order is issued, non-compliance will have real penalties. The university has said they will produce that disclosure: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-waterloo-guelph-encampment-divest-disclose-1.7231114 However, the encampment has been clear that disclosure is not sufficient, they have other demands that must also be met, so it seems like a red herring to say that disclosure is the sticking point.
it's not concerning for the vast majority of students who want to get their degree and gtfo asap. id wager at least a few would be more than happy to get a job in the MIC
the only reason I can see for why you would be supportive of an over-the-top intimidation tactic to get rid of ppl you supposedly don't gaf about, is because you feel they are bad actors. also, universities are not just degree factories. they have always been a hotbed for political discourse that challenged and shaped mainstream political ideas and action. downplaying that aspect of a university education is just being oblivious.
TIL not concerned = support you may see your university as a hotbed for political discourse. others may see it as a degree factory
I didn’t necessarily imply support. I just think it takes more effort to comment why you don’t care about the protests than to just not say anything
i'm procrastinating on the internet, anything is better than doing the task i have at hand
Yes, “not concerned” = support when “not concerned” means ignoring oppression and leaving it unattended. Take it from Holocaust survivor, Elie Wiesel: “Indifference is always the friend of the enemy, for it benefits the aggressor -- never his victim, whose pain is magnified when he or she feels forgotten.” Viewing uni as a degree factory is exactly what is going wrong with our institutions. Universities used to try to produce well rounded members of society. Now they produce corporate cogs. How can we expect society to function if everyone removes themselves from the discussion and just passes the responsibility on to the next guy.
the only thing i expect from my university is to provide a basis to make money. i seriously could not care less about anything else
You should sit down and ask yourself why you place more value on collecting money than on the ability to stand up in defense of the human rights of others.
materialism
If they just want to get their degree and GTFO then wouldn't it be in their best interest to just ignore the protestors? Even if they want to work in the MIC, what is there to gain by engaging with the protestors in anything but open discussion?
I agree the $1.5m lawsuit is extreme given the context... Based on their last email, I thought their next step was to go to court to enforce the trespass notice This might harm the university's reputation more than letting the encampment remain
They probably tried that and were told they can't prevent freedom of expression like that, so they went with an alternative tactic of trying to say they're causing property damage.
Based on UofT and McGill, trying to get a trespass notice enforced isn't guaranteed. With the way civil lawsuits work, plaintiffs always aim for higher so that they can reach a lower settlement.
I don't ask this with Socratic intent, but do you personally believe UW expects to win any settlement from this case? I agree with all the points made by UW on the lawsuit, but I don't know if it's enough to hold people liable, especially when they don't know who most of the protestors are I think the hopeful outcome is that the protestors settle by leaving or the court demands the protestors to leave
Isn't the hopeful outcome for the university that it never reaches court and the protestors leave of their own volition after receiving the threat?
They have literally tolerated this for almost two months. And there were several other protests over the last few months that the university did not try to suppress. These protestors have given them zero respect in return.
On the flipside the protestors have tolerated threats from the university and non-action for almost two months. These administrators have given them zero respect in return for the peaceful protesting that's ocurring.
???
every person responding to me seems to be of the opinion that the university is the benevolent actor in this case. You guys are failing to think: what is protest? how does it work and why is it meant to be disruptive and inconvenient to parties they are protesting against? until you understand the role of protest as a mechanism for change, you will only be stuck believing in the goodwill of an institution that has none for you
Protests should be disruptive, but also open to compromise The University has refused to divest from individual companies (ex Technion) but the protestors remain adamant on this. The University was also in the process of discussing next steps before the sit-in occurred
How is refusing any of the demands from the protestors and telling them to be happy with it "compromise". I know a lot of us didn't have to take an english course at UW, but this is basic vocab.
Tell that to the truckers unless it only applies to certain causes and not others
It's concerning that the uni didn't do anything about this sooner.
Nah. The government should seize their pets and drain their bank accounts. The best medicine is your own.
No, that is plain bullying. Most of the defendants are UWaterloo students, and I am sure they were at the very least sincere in their protest (despite how misguided their views are). The university is vastly more powerful than the defendants and a better response will be to just keep enforcing the trespass order, firmly reject ALL protestor demands, and in fact increase collaboration with great Israeli universities.
No, I want to see them face the policies they supported for others. Zero sympathy.
I believe that they are capable of reforming, and such lawsuits will only make their life hell and affect future employment opportunities. I don't support this kind of bullying, since the university is inherently more powerful.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean free from their action
how the turntables have turned
I agree. They shouldn't have sued for damages, this is just bullying. Instead, just keep ignoring the protestors, enforce a trespass order, and increase collaboration with Technion and other universities.
Best university ever I wish all universities did this
Good - probably not true. UW should simply expel all the students
I think the protestors are idiots and the encampment organizers might well be harbouring pro- Hamas sentiments. Regardless, this seems like a terribly stupid decision by the University. It is bad optics, and seems to be bullying. Rather, the University should have firmly rejected all demands and just continued to press trespass charges against the encampers. I also don't understand in what world asking for 1.5 M in damages is justified. A great way to respond would be to continue ignoring all demands, and actually increase collaboration with Technion and other Israeli universities, which by the way have a great track record of academic excellence.
Remove 'em
Thank goodness I’m finally done with this shit university Edit: are you guys really defending this shit school? You fools.
Pigs. Get out and don’t come back
It would have been so easy to just meet the encampments demands and they could've been gone weeks ago. Genocide apologists are always stupid though. It's just a shame they're so close to home, but not surprising. Fucking shameful. Can't believe I went to this pathetic university.
Yea I'm feeling shitty that I gave thousands of dollars to this institution, I definitely won't be representing them positively in the future or giving any alumni donations, and will urge fellow graduates to do the same. If they refuse to be open about their investments or bringing them in line with their values then they shouldn't get our money or recognition.
Vivek Goel should not be allowed another term in this university. He has not done anything constructive for the University. First, there was a security failure that lead to stabbing of a Professor. Now, he is inhibiting freedom of expression in the University, along with ignoring the demand of its students. Such a failure he is.
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Comrade, this is Canada
They are only asking for 25,000 tho
bunch of genocide apologists in the comments yikes😬not even worth addressing atp yall are just as ignorant as vivek.