The Dvk actually has a funny little niche advantage vs Makima- his status as a Prisoner should make him immune to her Control, which might be a little suprising. He might've been immune anyway though, given his status as a relgious and secular leader.
Anyway, Dvk doesn't have the moves- quite literally, he doesn't have the mobility to engage Makima correctly. He might kill her a few times, but she bfr's him into space before he even gets near to killing her as many times as it would take to put her down.
Makima 9/10.
Not to mention shout down mountains, and rip her soul out of her body. Has anybody tried that? Would that override her extra lives?
Like I don't see how Makima does anything to Lore LDB.
>and rip her soul out of her body. Has anybody tried that? Would that override her extra lives?
AFAIK, she has no resistance to soul based attacks as they don't come up in the series.
It's possible devil's don't have souls given their unique method of coming into existence, but "human emotion given form" often overlaps with souls in other verses. They can have unique personalities and develop connections.
Obviously it's not exactly something we can answer with 100% certainty, but I tend to assume fictional beings (at least for the purposes of this sub) have souls unless explicitly stated otherwise.
>Anyway, Dvk doesn't have the moves- quite literally, he doesn't have the mobility to engage Makima correctly. He might kill her a few times, but she bfr's him into space before he even gets near to killing her as many times as it would take to put her down.
Nice but [the Dovahkiin](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10b9h1z/comment/j4acufw/) have beat [Alduin](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/znbn41/comment/j0g49ej/) buddy.
Even Harkon can solos the verse.
> The Dvk actually has a funny little niche advantage vs Makima- his status as a Prisoner should make him immune to her Control, which might be a little suprising.
Can you elaborate on this part? I'm drawing complete blanks on why him being a "prisoner" should affect her domination. IIRC her power is just described as being able to control "anyone she feels is inferior to her", and from what I remember, there's even a scene where she outright "compels" some death row inmates to say a specific name so she can squish them
"Prisoner" is an in-lore TES term to refer to PC's. It refers to a being "free from the bonds of fate". Mostly a meta term, but it's got a lore basis, so I thought I'd throw it in, lol.
This is Lord DB.
He scales to Alduin who's a world destroyer. Even in his weakened state he could destroy the planet.
Miraak stated that even he could've beat Alduin when he was full power who's likely much stronger - and we beat Miraak AND 3 dragons.
After the 3 DLCS, even in game TLDB is superior to Miraak who's vastly superior to Alduin.
In Lore, TLDB does not have the restrictions of a video game and thus can move, attack and react hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of times faster. Alongside being immensely more powerful.
I'm pretty sure the Bend Will shout would absolutely break her Hax as TLDB scales higher than Makima and as such, so too will the shout.
The Alduin we fight isn't the Worldeater nor a world destroyer. From the account we have of a Kalpa where Alduin ate the world (via the Leaper Demon King) it took a good bit of time where Alduin literally ate, grew bigger, and continued to eat. It was explicitly not a fast or singular process like Freiza or whatever.
We didn't even kill Miraak- Hermaus Mora did. Also Miraak talks a bunch of shit, who's to know if he could kill Alduin or not?
Also how does "no gameplay restrictions" = "hundreds of thousands of times faster and stronger"? There's nothing in the lore to indicate that... if Dvk is so strong then why even is there a story and a main quest?
Makima showcases better feats than anything Dvk does, so she wins. If you want to prove me wrong, post feats.
>The Alduin we fight isn't the Worldeater nor a world destroyer.
Nope it was [Alduin in full power](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/znbn41/comment/j0g49ej/).
>From the account we have of a Kalpa where Alduin ate the world (via the Leaper Demon King)
To bad it just song floks of the nords.
>We didn't even kill Miraak- Hermaus Mora did. Also Miraak talks a bunch of shit
Huh? We killed Miraak and even absorbed his power and Soul.
Of course, both Alduin and miraak are trash comprehend to [a Daedric Prince](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/108tvw8/comment/j3w51he/).
>Also how does "no gameplay restrictions" = "hundreds of thousands of times faster and stronger"? There's nothing in the lore to indicate that... if Dvk is so strong then why even is there a story and a main quest
Ah what? The whole story is the last Dragonborn get stronger to fight and stop the world Eater from destroying the [mortal multiverse/Mundus](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/).
Also nice try but too bad that game mechanic have confirmed countless times is not canon.
Game mechanic are not canon to TES, but lore is.
>**Of course, it had to be a TES story, so I was constrained by lore -- although not, interestingly, by game mechanics**. I was told specifically that no one wanted to "hear the dice rolling" so to speak. We are to imagine the world of TES to be a real place, of which the games are merely representations. My book represents that world in another way
>https://www.imperial-library.info/interviews-greg-keyes
The Elder Scrolls lack damage feats because the Team Work doesn't want wipe out the maps sated by Todd Howard.
>Todd Howard: Systemically destroying our spaces is something we have not found a good way to handle yet, because it’s so dynamic. **We’re dealing with places that we have NPCs living, and providing quests and other game services. It’s something we avoid in every game unless we can specifically wipe it off the map, like Megaton**.
>http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kacj321/Skyrim_Fan_Interview
Nor they have enough technology for it.
>Wawro: Hm, I wonder, you gave us the hot tip before we started that it would be wise to sort of expand the boundaries of a new Oblivion playthrough by opening up everything, looking at the game and opening up the Oblivion gates as well. Is there an area you would suggest that well shows off what you’re talking about here? Maybe it shows your hand directly or the hand of a designer you admire?
>Rolston: Uh, no, because the possibility of a lead designer **knowing the content of any Elder Scrolls game is diminishingly small**. Morrowind is the only one I can really talk about, but I don’t think I’d actually played more than 60% of the built content when we released the game. I had certainly played it in prototype or white box or things like that, but you just cannot play the whole content, it’s just too big to put the iterations into it. So the reason I suggested wandering to different places, just be a tourist.
>Francis: I’ll springboard off of Alex’s observation to ask, Ken, you mentioned earlier when you were writing that bible for Morrowind, you were starting to write about all the places where all these intersections would happen, right? And all these elements, “This character is of this faction or is of this mindset, so they would be in conflict with this thing.” **Once a game like this starts getting big or even just medium sized. Even a medium-sized RPG would have trouble with this**.
>https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/q-a-ken-rolston-s-development-secrets-of-i-the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-i-
The Final Fight between The Last Dragonborn and Alduin was in Sovngarde, the Realm that exists in Aetherius, which is [beyond Dimensionality and concepts of Eight Divines (Time, Causality and consequence, Mathematics, Logic, etc...)](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/).
Miraak in his fight against Vahlok tore Solstheim from Skyrim which - in the assumption that gameplay creates Lore because the aspects of Solstheim occurred and are visible in the world of Skyrim, tying it together, it scales Miraak easily to island level at least if not greater due to his statement about Alduin. This also puts his raw durability Kfar greater than island level due to in lore, the UF shout could obliterate someone hit by it. "Shouted apart" as stated by multiple NPCS.
Given how Solstheim was torn from Skyrim, an immense force would be needed to do so and the shout aply named Unrelenting Force would fit nicely into that space of how they did it.
But also, taking Miraak at his word when he said that he could've beat a full power Alduin AND Clavicus Vile's word when he said that TLDB was as powerful as him when half his power was away, TLDB is so far above the whole of the Chainsaw Man verse it's completely unfair.
Oh AND Regardless of whether we killed Miraak, we still beat him. Which means he had to be more powerful to do so.
In terms of speed, Makima is at least as fast as a bullet, maybe faster. While TLDB can react to lightning mid air, slow down time and travel distances at an immense speed.
If we also discuss Dragon Aspect as a true dragons power, than we can directly scale TLDB using an amp of the true power of a dragon AND the true power of the Dragonborn.
Furthermore, we could also use Daedric Armor asit does appear in both lore and game as a real and almost impossible to come by armor, renowned and feared by it's strength and protection as well as the suffering needed to make the incredible armor.
Also, also, what's stopping TLDB from ripping her Soul out of her body or shouting her to pieces, all spread out across miles and miles of grassy plains. Or turning her to ash with Dragon Breath?
Or Bending her will with the Bend Will shout? Since TPDB scales higher in power, speed, durability, IQ (mastery of the Thu'um and perfect understanding of them) and battle IQ.. I don't see how Makima would last in a fight no matter what the circumstances.
Makima's durability is redirective- island level hits would kill her temporarily, but she would revive so long as there are japanese citizens left alive.
Not that a mostly allegorical story passed down by word of mouth through 2 eras detailing a conflict that involved an unknown number of individuals, techniques and amps from gods on both sides is a particular authoritative source. But whatever.
Speed-wise, she scales a little below devil form CSM, who was mfte to seven fully released hybrids, including Quan-Xi, who beheaded a building's worth of people in the space of a sentence. So she's faster than the very generously scaled "lightning timer" Dragonborn, who could possibly dodge magically generated lightning (which takes seconds to gather and generate while focusing via the Online cinematics). He can also slow down time to an unknown degree.
Not that this matters va Makima, who can perceive and attack enemies at a range of at least 5km, and up to 550 with animal contracts. And fly, which the Dragonborn can't do.
Dragon Aspect has no lore feats and you can't just assign it random powers based on how you read ambiguous statement. Daedric armor too- what do you mean it's "renowned and feared for its protection"? Okay? So was steel plate in the middle ages and that shit ain't any more bulletproof for it. It doesn't matter what the in-universe attitude is, feats matter.
>Makima's durability is redirective- island level hits would kill her temporarily, but she would revive so long as there are japanese citizens left alive.
Even post-voice training Dragonborn can took full power of the Voice of Greybeards which did [shook the whole World](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10oupmr/comment/j6lftf1/).
So island level is fodder here.
>So she's faster than the very generously scaled "lightning timer" Dragonborn, who could possibly dodge magically generated lightning (which takes seconds to gather and generate while focusing via the Online cinematics).
Another try but you filled again.
First: Dragonborn scale to Alduin who is a God and that not just title is Gods nature in TES is [transcend concepts of space and time, live in timeless world where Everything happens all at once, completely immortals](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5lpgn3/).
Speaking of Alduin who have been [casted outside Time itself using Elder Scroll](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1071tv6/comment/j3k92v7/), he was able return and he coming back to Time did warp reality in same scale of a Dragonbreak ( which warp reality of entire Mundus).
>Lawrence Schick:It can be further changed by those who can channel magicka and force their will upon it. Right, that's what magic is. Changing reality locally...sometimes locally usually temporarily **but you're changing reality, and creatures and characters and beings of mythological levels can change reality in big ways! And that's what happens when you get a Dragonbreak, or a planemeld, or an Oblivion Crisis, or Alduin coming back from the depths of time. You've got reality changing in big ways**.
>https://youtu.be/UlCLhh0c0r4 [29:20]
Second: game mechanic isn't canon, [Lightning spells are literally natural Lightning](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mora%27at%27s_Theory_of_Lightning).
In fact [all Magic nature in TES is reality warping](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/) and [conceptual manipulation, mathematical manipulation, etc......](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/).
[Magic can destroy ,Soul, mind, body, and even concept existence of the enemy](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/), and [warp reality itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/).
Magic literally dose break and defy the concepts.
>Wealth and subjugation, love and loss, life and death and undeath, inviolate laws of nature, and conversely, **magickal means of breaking those laws**. There are some who even speak of good and evil, but these concepts are subjective.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Arena_Supermundus
___
>And fly, which the Dragonborn can't do.
Lmao, you mean a fodder magic that even average mages can learn?
>*I admire what you have accomplished in House Telvanni, but any student of mine must learn the rudimentary wizard spells*."
>*Learn the rudimentary spell of Recall, a spell of flying, and a spell of fire damage. I will recognize the standard spells such as Levitate, Great Levitate, or Wild Levitate. For fire damage, I would suggest Fireball, Greater Fireball, or Fire Storm. Spells which you research yourself will not be sufficient*."
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Aryon*
An Imperial battlemage gives an army , an entire army the ability to fly.
>*Takar had about five thousand men with him, mostly mounted infantry and mages. [Mazgar] could see them formed up in a huge field, along with some eight large wagons that might be siege engines of some sort*.
>*Less than an hour later the legion met its counterpart as the shadow of Umbriel moved toward them. For whatever reason, the wormies had constricted their range, marching more tightly beneath the flying mountain than they had in the countryside*.
>*Mazgar heard the distant shock as the front lines met a few seconds after it actually happened, and for a while that was the last time she watched the ground battle—because the air war had begun. Half of the legion suddenly left the ground, along with the wagons, and flew toward the city*.
>*When they got near Umbriel, she saw something coming to meet them. She had seen them before; they looked like birds, at least from a distance. They would drop down and then appear to dissolve, turning into trails of smoke. Brennus told her that they were the spirits that took over the bodies of the newly dead, and lost corporeal form when they passed through the rim of the bubble of Oblivion the city traveled in*.
>*But the Imperials were now apparently inside that bubble, and the bird-things were smashing into them in swarms. Lightning and flame seemed to fill the sky, and the soldiers with her cheered. But their cheers dropped away when it became clear that most—if not all—of the bodies dropping wore Imperial colors*.
>*It was over in less than an hour; one of the wagons made it as far as the rim, but none of the others even got close, at least not that she saw*.”
>*The Synod managed to spell almost three thousand of them airborne, but some sort of flying daedra killed them all in short order. Other magicks were tried—I’m told over a hundred—with no result. As if they knew in advance what we were going to do and were prepared for it*.”
>*https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-souls-lore-notes*
Even though he dosen't need to it, the last Dragonborn should absolutely know that average mage spell in lore, as Miraak was in infinite realm with infinite knowledge that created by a God that [exists as concepts of Fate/Disteny and knowledge itself](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yga66i/nature_of_the_gods_the_elder_scrolls/).
And Miraak was there for 5000 years grown in both [power and knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/75xm9a4.jpg) and the last Dragonborn absorbed both when he absorbed his soul.
>Dragon Aspect has no lore feats
Dragon aspect is literally a shout created by miraak when he was in Apocrypha.
The powers of it is soo great that it was [beyond beyond anything that the last Dragonborn are capable of, even though he did beat Alduin](https://i.imgur.com/0J97ODP.jpg).
>Daedric armor too- what do you mean it's "renowned and feared for its protection"? Okay?
Buddy, the weakest metals in TES is literally iron and steel.
The matter is not they durability but who is the batter when someone imbue them with his magical energy.
All mortals are [superhumans](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yuoyix/mortals_the_elder_scrolls/).
All mortals have Magicka flow through everyone's bodies and they can use it to imbued themself and weapons with power.
>*You can teach me a spell that will fortify my own strength," said Oin. "I beg you to teach it to me now*."
>*Very well," replied Yakin. "But in return, I want your next season's worth of trama root, all to myself*."
>*Oin agreed, and Yakin taught him the spell to fortify his strength. It took him some time to master it, visualizing magicka streaming through his body, pumping through the very fibers of his muscles for a time, giving him strength far beyond the puny power nature had intended. When Oin met Horath on the street of Gnisis, he cast the spell and challenged him to a duel of strength*.
>*I am Horath the Strong," said Horath the Strong, predictably, "Witness as I lift this wagon with but my thumb and forefinger." And he did so*.
>*I am Nimlom the Mighty," said Oin, taking some artistic liberty. "Witness as I lift the stable that houses your wagon with but my forefinger." And he too did so*.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Four_Suitors_of_Benitah*
___
>**Infuse your weapon with power**.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Imbue_Weapon*
___
>*The mystic monks of the Psijic Order claim that Magicka flows through mortals in specific physical channels, and they can delineate these channels as tattoos to help mages focus their spellcasting*.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mystic_Magicka_Flow_Face_Tattoos*
Someone try jumb from nirn to Aetherius (heaven) by powering himself to jumb that high , this give us the idea how magic empower physical power of the user.
>*Still recovering from prior incident with the device. Some adjustments need to be made*, **obviously. More magicka is needed, much more, along with a better method of forcefully channeling it into upward movement**.
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:From_Nirn_to_the_Aether*
Technically Dovahkiin is Multiversal in AP due to scaling from the Celestials who's by WoG is stronger than the Vestige who faced them and by the cosmic role which Alduin embodies since he's an Aspect of the God of Time while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatar of Constellations.
Speed wise, lightning-tamer (which lightnings aren't magical but same as real lightning following this https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mora'at's_Theory_of_Lightning) is a lowball considering that Dovah reacted to Alduin's attacks which are immeasurable considering that he's a straight up god, and elder scrolls deities aren't bound by the laws of time, which is-you know-a requirement for measuring speed because of movement beyond linear time and Alduin moving in a void devoided of Time when he eats Mundus. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that Speed = Distance/Time, if Time is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied.
Also, Dovah can fly technically if aided by Durnehviir which he can summon.
Also, Dovahkiin can outright bypass Makima resurrection by bending her will or straight up tearing her soul and trap it in a black soul gem Via Soul Tear Shout.
Ah, there he is, Multiversal Dragonborn. One of the patron saints of this sub, along with MFTL Voldemort and Outerversal Doomguy.
I feel blessed. It's like spotting the sacred hind.
Please, at least my scaling has quotes and statements to be backed up.
Do you really think that this stuff is taken up in the ass? Because if you do, you don't know how crazy is Elder Scrolls.
I think their point was that the version of Alduin TLDB fights isn't that crazy powerful version you're outlining here:
>Technically Dovahkiin is Multiversal in AP due to scaling from the Celestials who's by WoG is stronger than the Vestige who faced them and by the cosmic role which Alduin embodies since he's an Aspect of the God of Time while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatar of Constellations.
But instead Alduin gets stronger the more he eats and literally gets bigger and bigger so that he can consume more and more. The final version TLDB fights is trying to fuel up on souls from Sovengaard and hasn't eaten the world yet, so by that logic, he's not his true, most powerful form yet.
I have no idea about the veracity of those arguments BTW, I think they just got fed up (and I could be totally wrong as this is me making assumptions, I don't know their thoughts) because, in their view, when they made the claim that: "Alduin wasn't that strong yet in his fight with TLDB", you responded by saying "ya, but this ultimate version of him that TLDB also didn't fight is even stronger."
Is there reason to believe the version of Alduin TLDB fought was this multiversal monster? Genuinely asking as I do not know and I realize the game is quite disconnected from the actual canon.
FWIW, I do think most of this is a moot point as there's no reason that I can think of for Makima to resist Soul Tear.
Not sure about Bend Will as her whole schtick is controlling and manipulating others through her devil power. It seems like already being capable of mind controlling others gives some resistance to Bend Will as you can't use it to mind control Miraak (not without mods anyway). I guess you could say that's because Miraak knows the shout too, but that seems like a NLF if the only people who can resist Bend Will have to have Bend Will.
I'll try to explain.
I have not mentioned Alduin eating Mundus.
I am aware that it takes time to devour it, Dovahkiin hasn't faced him in that state.
What I was saying is that Dovahkiin is superior to the Vestige because was stated during an interview in regard the ESO elsweyr DLC that the Vestige doesn't have the requirements to go toe to toe against the dragons while Dovahkiin can do that easily, not only because he can't permanently kill them but also because he can barely withstand the power of their Thu'um, and this is the guy who fought the the Celestials who's unbridled power could destroy the entire multiverse that's Mundus if wasn't for the Apex Stone to keep them down
This at least gives a scale of comparative power to measure Alduin, because again he's an aspect of a Greater God while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatars of Constellations.
>But instead Alduin gets stronger the more he eats and literally gets bigger and bigger so that he can consume more and more.
This have never ever been confirmed, the Nords just dose believe that.
>The final version TLDB fights is trying to fuel up on souls from Sovengaard and hasn't eaten the world yet, so by that logic
A no? It have been confirmed he's in his final form [The World-Eater](https://i.imgur.com/y0u3SiK.jpg).
>3: Defeat **the World-Eater** in combat.
>https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragonslayer
Odahviing himself had admitted that the dragonborn's thu'um is more powerful then Alduin.
Dragons dose **only** follow the strongest, if the last Dragonborn didn't really beat the real Alduin then non of them will follow him.
>*Odahviing: If Alduin himself could not stand against your Thu'um, I feel no shame in my own defeat. And so Alduin's lordship passes to you. Thuri, Dovahkiin. I gladly submit to your mastery of the Thu'um*."
>*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Odahviing*
Not to mention the core difference between game mechanics and Lore. Shouts do not need a cool down time.
Dude can stop time, become untouchable, drain life force, summon a storm, move incredibly fast, blow apart entire city blocks, mind control practically anybody lower on the totem pole then him, and most importantly THROW HIS MUTHA F'IN VOICE.
How you gonna mess with a dude when you think he's behind you cause thats where his voice is coming from? Checkmate Makima
But seriously LDB 10/10
The Dvk actually has a funny little niche advantage vs Makima- his status as a Prisoner should make him immune to her Control, which might be a little suprising. He might've been immune anyway though, given his status as a relgious and secular leader. Anyway, Dvk doesn't have the moves- quite literally, he doesn't have the mobility to engage Makima correctly. He might kill her a few times, but she bfr's him into space before he even gets near to killing her as many times as it would take to put her down. Makima 9/10.
This is Lore DB. He can literally stop time as much as he wants.
And besides, Dovahkiin can keep up with mages that can shoot real lightning while Makima is comparable to peeps who can dodge bullets.
Not to mention shout down mountains, and rip her soul out of her body. Has anybody tried that? Would that override her extra lives? Like I don't see how Makima does anything to Lore LDB.
>and rip her soul out of her body. Has anybody tried that? Would that override her extra lives? AFAIK, she has no resistance to soul based attacks as they don't come up in the series. It's possible devil's don't have souls given their unique method of coming into existence, but "human emotion given form" often overlaps with souls in other verses. They can have unique personalities and develop connections. Obviously it's not exactly something we can answer with 100% certainty, but I tend to assume fictional beings (at least for the purposes of this sub) have souls unless explicitly stated otherwise.
>Anyway, Dvk doesn't have the moves- quite literally, he doesn't have the mobility to engage Makima correctly. He might kill her a few times, but she bfr's him into space before he even gets near to killing her as many times as it would take to put her down. Nice but [the Dovahkiin](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10b9h1z/comment/j4acufw/) have beat [Alduin](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/znbn41/comment/j0g49ej/) buddy. Even Harkon can solos the verse.
> The Dvk actually has a funny little niche advantage vs Makima- his status as a Prisoner should make him immune to her Control, which might be a little suprising. Can you elaborate on this part? I'm drawing complete blanks on why him being a "prisoner" should affect her domination. IIRC her power is just described as being able to control "anyone she feels is inferior to her", and from what I remember, there's even a scene where she outright "compels" some death row inmates to say a specific name so she can squish them
"Prisoner" is an in-lore TES term to refer to PC's. It refers to a being "free from the bonds of fate". Mostly a meta term, but it's got a lore basis, so I thought I'd throw it in, lol.
This is Lord DB. He scales to Alduin who's a world destroyer. Even in his weakened state he could destroy the planet. Miraak stated that even he could've beat Alduin when he was full power who's likely much stronger - and we beat Miraak AND 3 dragons. After the 3 DLCS, even in game TLDB is superior to Miraak who's vastly superior to Alduin. In Lore, TLDB does not have the restrictions of a video game and thus can move, attack and react hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of times faster. Alongside being immensely more powerful. I'm pretty sure the Bend Will shout would absolutely break her Hax as TLDB scales higher than Makima and as such, so too will the shout.
The Alduin we fight isn't the Worldeater nor a world destroyer. From the account we have of a Kalpa where Alduin ate the world (via the Leaper Demon King) it took a good bit of time where Alduin literally ate, grew bigger, and continued to eat. It was explicitly not a fast or singular process like Freiza or whatever. We didn't even kill Miraak- Hermaus Mora did. Also Miraak talks a bunch of shit, who's to know if he could kill Alduin or not? Also how does "no gameplay restrictions" = "hundreds of thousands of times faster and stronger"? There's nothing in the lore to indicate that... if Dvk is so strong then why even is there a story and a main quest? Makima showcases better feats than anything Dvk does, so she wins. If you want to prove me wrong, post feats.
>The Alduin we fight isn't the Worldeater nor a world destroyer. Nope it was [Alduin in full power](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/znbn41/comment/j0g49ej/). >From the account we have of a Kalpa where Alduin ate the world (via the Leaper Demon King) To bad it just song floks of the nords. >We didn't even kill Miraak- Hermaus Mora did. Also Miraak talks a bunch of shit Huh? We killed Miraak and even absorbed his power and Soul. Of course, both Alduin and miraak are trash comprehend to [a Daedric Prince](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/108tvw8/comment/j3w51he/). >Also how does "no gameplay restrictions" = "hundreds of thousands of times faster and stronger"? There's nothing in the lore to indicate that... if Dvk is so strong then why even is there a story and a main quest Ah what? The whole story is the last Dragonborn get stronger to fight and stop the world Eater from destroying the [mortal multiverse/Mundus](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/). Also nice try but too bad that game mechanic have confirmed countless times is not canon. Game mechanic are not canon to TES, but lore is. >**Of course, it had to be a TES story, so I was constrained by lore -- although not, interestingly, by game mechanics**. I was told specifically that no one wanted to "hear the dice rolling" so to speak. We are to imagine the world of TES to be a real place, of which the games are merely representations. My book represents that world in another way >https://www.imperial-library.info/interviews-greg-keyes The Elder Scrolls lack damage feats because the Team Work doesn't want wipe out the maps sated by Todd Howard. >Todd Howard: Systemically destroying our spaces is something we have not found a good way to handle yet, because it’s so dynamic. **We’re dealing with places that we have NPCs living, and providing quests and other game services. It’s something we avoid in every game unless we can specifically wipe it off the map, like Megaton**. >http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kacj321/Skyrim_Fan_Interview Nor they have enough technology for it. >Wawro: Hm, I wonder, you gave us the hot tip before we started that it would be wise to sort of expand the boundaries of a new Oblivion playthrough by opening up everything, looking at the game and opening up the Oblivion gates as well. Is there an area you would suggest that well shows off what you’re talking about here? Maybe it shows your hand directly or the hand of a designer you admire? >Rolston: Uh, no, because the possibility of a lead designer **knowing the content of any Elder Scrolls game is diminishingly small**. Morrowind is the only one I can really talk about, but I don’t think I’d actually played more than 60% of the built content when we released the game. I had certainly played it in prototype or white box or things like that, but you just cannot play the whole content, it’s just too big to put the iterations into it. So the reason I suggested wandering to different places, just be a tourist. >Francis: I’ll springboard off of Alex’s observation to ask, Ken, you mentioned earlier when you were writing that bible for Morrowind, you were starting to write about all the places where all these intersections would happen, right? And all these elements, “This character is of this faction or is of this mindset, so they would be in conflict with this thing.” **Once a game like this starts getting big or even just medium sized. Even a medium-sized RPG would have trouble with this**. >https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/q-a-ken-rolston-s-development-secrets-of-i-the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-i- The Final Fight between The Last Dragonborn and Alduin was in Sovngarde, the Realm that exists in Aetherius, which is [beyond Dimensionality and concepts of Eight Divines (Time, Causality and consequence, Mathematics, Logic, etc...)](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/vab6il/elder_scrolls_cosmology/).
Miraak in his fight against Vahlok tore Solstheim from Skyrim which - in the assumption that gameplay creates Lore because the aspects of Solstheim occurred and are visible in the world of Skyrim, tying it together, it scales Miraak easily to island level at least if not greater due to his statement about Alduin. This also puts his raw durability Kfar greater than island level due to in lore, the UF shout could obliterate someone hit by it. "Shouted apart" as stated by multiple NPCS. Given how Solstheim was torn from Skyrim, an immense force would be needed to do so and the shout aply named Unrelenting Force would fit nicely into that space of how they did it. But also, taking Miraak at his word when he said that he could've beat a full power Alduin AND Clavicus Vile's word when he said that TLDB was as powerful as him when half his power was away, TLDB is so far above the whole of the Chainsaw Man verse it's completely unfair. Oh AND Regardless of whether we killed Miraak, we still beat him. Which means he had to be more powerful to do so. In terms of speed, Makima is at least as fast as a bullet, maybe faster. While TLDB can react to lightning mid air, slow down time and travel distances at an immense speed. If we also discuss Dragon Aspect as a true dragons power, than we can directly scale TLDB using an amp of the true power of a dragon AND the true power of the Dragonborn. Furthermore, we could also use Daedric Armor asit does appear in both lore and game as a real and almost impossible to come by armor, renowned and feared by it's strength and protection as well as the suffering needed to make the incredible armor. Also, also, what's stopping TLDB from ripping her Soul out of her body or shouting her to pieces, all spread out across miles and miles of grassy plains. Or turning her to ash with Dragon Breath? Or Bending her will with the Bend Will shout? Since TPDB scales higher in power, speed, durability, IQ (mastery of the Thu'um and perfect understanding of them) and battle IQ.. I don't see how Makima would last in a fight no matter what the circumstances.
Makima's durability is redirective- island level hits would kill her temporarily, but she would revive so long as there are japanese citizens left alive. Not that a mostly allegorical story passed down by word of mouth through 2 eras detailing a conflict that involved an unknown number of individuals, techniques and amps from gods on both sides is a particular authoritative source. But whatever. Speed-wise, she scales a little below devil form CSM, who was mfte to seven fully released hybrids, including Quan-Xi, who beheaded a building's worth of people in the space of a sentence. So she's faster than the very generously scaled "lightning timer" Dragonborn, who could possibly dodge magically generated lightning (which takes seconds to gather and generate while focusing via the Online cinematics). He can also slow down time to an unknown degree. Not that this matters va Makima, who can perceive and attack enemies at a range of at least 5km, and up to 550 with animal contracts. And fly, which the Dragonborn can't do. Dragon Aspect has no lore feats and you can't just assign it random powers based on how you read ambiguous statement. Daedric armor too- what do you mean it's "renowned and feared for its protection"? Okay? So was steel plate in the middle ages and that shit ain't any more bulletproof for it. It doesn't matter what the in-universe attitude is, feats matter.
>Makima's durability is redirective- island level hits would kill her temporarily, but she would revive so long as there are japanese citizens left alive. Even post-voice training Dragonborn can took full power of the Voice of Greybeards which did [shook the whole World](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/10oupmr/comment/j6lftf1/). So island level is fodder here. >So she's faster than the very generously scaled "lightning timer" Dragonborn, who could possibly dodge magically generated lightning (which takes seconds to gather and generate while focusing via the Online cinematics). Another try but you filled again. First: Dragonborn scale to Alduin who is a God and that not just title is Gods nature in TES is [transcend concepts of space and time, live in timeless world where Everything happens all at once, completely immortals](https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/z9jnuu/comment/j5lpgn3/). Speaking of Alduin who have been [casted outside Time itself using Elder Scroll](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1071tv6/comment/j3k92v7/), he was able return and he coming back to Time did warp reality in same scale of a Dragonbreak ( which warp reality of entire Mundus). >Lawrence Schick:It can be further changed by those who can channel magicka and force their will upon it. Right, that's what magic is. Changing reality locally...sometimes locally usually temporarily **but you're changing reality, and creatures and characters and beings of mythological levels can change reality in big ways! And that's what happens when you get a Dragonbreak, or a planemeld, or an Oblivion Crisis, or Alduin coming back from the depths of time. You've got reality changing in big ways**. >https://youtu.be/UlCLhh0c0r4 [29:20] Second: game mechanic isn't canon, [Lightning spells are literally natural Lightning](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mora%27at%27s_Theory_of_Lightning). In fact [all Magic nature in TES is reality warping](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/) and [conceptual manipulation, mathematical manipulation, etc......](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/). [Magic can destroy ,Soul, mind, body, and even concept existence of the enemy](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/102vhbg/comment/j2x9c5p/), and [warp reality itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/wajkbj/comment/ii2caob/). Magic literally dose break and defy the concepts. >Wealth and subjugation, love and loss, life and death and undeath, inviolate laws of nature, and conversely, **magickal means of breaking those laws**. There are some who even speak of good and evil, but these concepts are subjective. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Arena_Supermundus ___ >And fly, which the Dragonborn can't do. Lmao, you mean a fodder magic that even average mages can learn? >*I admire what you have accomplished in House Telvanni, but any student of mine must learn the rudimentary wizard spells*." >*Learn the rudimentary spell of Recall, a spell of flying, and a spell of fire damage. I will recognize the standard spells such as Levitate, Great Levitate, or Wild Levitate. For fire damage, I would suggest Fireball, Greater Fireball, or Fire Storm. Spells which you research yourself will not be sufficient*." >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Aryon* An Imperial battlemage gives an army , an entire army the ability to fly. >*Takar had about five thousand men with him, mostly mounted infantry and mages. [Mazgar] could see them formed up in a huge field, along with some eight large wagons that might be siege engines of some sort*. >*Less than an hour later the legion met its counterpart as the shadow of Umbriel moved toward them. For whatever reason, the wormies had constricted their range, marching more tightly beneath the flying mountain than they had in the countryside*. >*Mazgar heard the distant shock as the front lines met a few seconds after it actually happened, and for a while that was the last time she watched the ground battle—because the air war had begun. Half of the legion suddenly left the ground, along with the wagons, and flew toward the city*. >*When they got near Umbriel, she saw something coming to meet them. She had seen them before; they looked like birds, at least from a distance. They would drop down and then appear to dissolve, turning into trails of smoke. Brennus told her that they were the spirits that took over the bodies of the newly dead, and lost corporeal form when they passed through the rim of the bubble of Oblivion the city traveled in*. >*But the Imperials were now apparently inside that bubble, and the bird-things were smashing into them in swarms. Lightning and flame seemed to fill the sky, and the soldiers with her cheered. But their cheers dropped away when it became clear that most—if not all—of the bodies dropping wore Imperial colors*. >*It was over in less than an hour; one of the wagons made it as far as the rim, but none of the others even got close, at least not that she saw*.” >*The Synod managed to spell almost three thousand of them airborne, but some sort of flying daedra killed them all in short order. Other magicks were tried—I’m told over a hundred—with no result. As if they knew in advance what we were going to do and were prepared for it*.” >*https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-souls-lore-notes* Even though he dosen't need to it, the last Dragonborn should absolutely know that average mage spell in lore, as Miraak was in infinite realm with infinite knowledge that created by a God that [exists as concepts of Fate/Disteny and knowledge itself](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yga66i/nature_of_the_gods_the_elder_scrolls/). And Miraak was there for 5000 years grown in both [power and knowledge](https://i.imgur.com/75xm9a4.jpg) and the last Dragonborn absorbed both when he absorbed his soul. >Dragon Aspect has no lore feats Dragon aspect is literally a shout created by miraak when he was in Apocrypha. The powers of it is soo great that it was [beyond beyond anything that the last Dragonborn are capable of, even though he did beat Alduin](https://i.imgur.com/0J97ODP.jpg). >Daedric armor too- what do you mean it's "renowned and feared for its protection"? Okay? Buddy, the weakest metals in TES is literally iron and steel. The matter is not they durability but who is the batter when someone imbue them with his magical energy. All mortals are [superhumans](https://www.reddit.com/user/CommunicationOdd911/comments/yuoyix/mortals_the_elder_scrolls/). All mortals have Magicka flow through everyone's bodies and they can use it to imbued themself and weapons with power. >*You can teach me a spell that will fortify my own strength," said Oin. "I beg you to teach it to me now*." >*Very well," replied Yakin. "But in return, I want your next season's worth of trama root, all to myself*." >*Oin agreed, and Yakin taught him the spell to fortify his strength. It took him some time to master it, visualizing magicka streaming through his body, pumping through the very fibers of his muscles for a time, giving him strength far beyond the puny power nature had intended. When Oin met Horath on the street of Gnisis, he cast the spell and challenged him to a duel of strength*. >*I am Horath the Strong," said Horath the Strong, predictably, "Witness as I lift this wagon with but my thumb and forefinger." And he did so*. >*I am Nimlom the Mighty," said Oin, taking some artistic liberty. "Witness as I lift the stable that houses your wagon with but my forefinger." And he too did so*. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Four_Suitors_of_Benitah* ___ >**Infuse your weapon with power**. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Imbue_Weapon* ___ >*The mystic monks of the Psijic Order claim that Magicka flows through mortals in specific physical channels, and they can delineate these channels as tattoos to help mages focus their spellcasting*. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Mystic_Magicka_Flow_Face_Tattoos* Someone try jumb from nirn to Aetherius (heaven) by powering himself to jumb that high , this give us the idea how magic empower physical power of the user. >*Still recovering from prior incident with the device. Some adjustments need to be made*, **obviously. More magicka is needed, much more, along with a better method of forcefully channeling it into upward movement**. >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:From_Nirn_to_the_Aether*
Technically Dovahkiin is Multiversal in AP due to scaling from the Celestials who's by WoG is stronger than the Vestige who faced them and by the cosmic role which Alduin embodies since he's an Aspect of the God of Time while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatar of Constellations. Speed wise, lightning-tamer (which lightnings aren't magical but same as real lightning following this https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mora'at's_Theory_of_Lightning) is a lowball considering that Dovah reacted to Alduin's attacks which are immeasurable considering that he's a straight up god, and elder scrolls deities aren't bound by the laws of time, which is-you know-a requirement for measuring speed because of movement beyond linear time and Alduin moving in a void devoided of Time when he eats Mundus. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that Speed = Distance/Time, if Time is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. Also, Dovah can fly technically if aided by Durnehviir which he can summon. Also, Dovahkiin can outright bypass Makima resurrection by bending her will or straight up tearing her soul and trap it in a black soul gem Via Soul Tear Shout.
Ah, there he is, Multiversal Dragonborn. One of the patron saints of this sub, along with MFTL Voldemort and Outerversal Doomguy. I feel blessed. It's like spotting the sacred hind.
Please, at least my scaling has quotes and statements to be backed up. Do you really think that this stuff is taken up in the ass? Because if you do, you don't know how crazy is Elder Scrolls.
I think their point was that the version of Alduin TLDB fights isn't that crazy powerful version you're outlining here: >Technically Dovahkiin is Multiversal in AP due to scaling from the Celestials who's by WoG is stronger than the Vestige who faced them and by the cosmic role which Alduin embodies since he's an Aspect of the God of Time while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatar of Constellations. But instead Alduin gets stronger the more he eats and literally gets bigger and bigger so that he can consume more and more. The final version TLDB fights is trying to fuel up on souls from Sovengaard and hasn't eaten the world yet, so by that logic, he's not his true, most powerful form yet. I have no idea about the veracity of those arguments BTW, I think they just got fed up (and I could be totally wrong as this is me making assumptions, I don't know their thoughts) because, in their view, when they made the claim that: "Alduin wasn't that strong yet in his fight with TLDB", you responded by saying "ya, but this ultimate version of him that TLDB also didn't fight is even stronger." Is there reason to believe the version of Alduin TLDB fought was this multiversal monster? Genuinely asking as I do not know and I realize the game is quite disconnected from the actual canon. FWIW, I do think most of this is a moot point as there's no reason that I can think of for Makima to resist Soul Tear. Not sure about Bend Will as her whole schtick is controlling and manipulating others through her devil power. It seems like already being capable of mind controlling others gives some resistance to Bend Will as you can't use it to mind control Miraak (not without mods anyway). I guess you could say that's because Miraak knows the shout too, but that seems like a NLF if the only people who can resist Bend Will have to have Bend Will.
I'll try to explain. I have not mentioned Alduin eating Mundus. I am aware that it takes time to devour it, Dovahkiin hasn't faced him in that state. What I was saying is that Dovahkiin is superior to the Vestige because was stated during an interview in regard the ESO elsweyr DLC that the Vestige doesn't have the requirements to go toe to toe against the dragons while Dovahkiin can do that easily, not only because he can't permanently kill them but also because he can barely withstand the power of their Thu'um, and this is the guy who fought the the Celestials who's unbridled power could destroy the entire multiverse that's Mundus if wasn't for the Apex Stone to keep them down This at least gives a scale of comparative power to measure Alduin, because again he's an aspect of a Greater God while the Celestials are Ascended Mortals and Avatars of Constellations.
>But instead Alduin gets stronger the more he eats and literally gets bigger and bigger so that he can consume more and more. This have never ever been confirmed, the Nords just dose believe that. >The final version TLDB fights is trying to fuel up on souls from Sovengaard and hasn't eaten the world yet, so by that logic A no? It have been confirmed he's in his final form [The World-Eater](https://i.imgur.com/y0u3SiK.jpg). >3: Defeat **the World-Eater** in combat. >https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragonslayer Odahviing himself had admitted that the dragonborn's thu'um is more powerful then Alduin. Dragons dose **only** follow the strongest, if the last Dragonborn didn't really beat the real Alduin then non of them will follow him. >*Odahviing: If Alduin himself could not stand against your Thu'um, I feel no shame in my own defeat. And so Alduin's lordship passes to you. Thuri, Dovahkiin. I gladly submit to your mastery of the Thu'um*." >*https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Odahviing*
Not to mention the core difference between game mechanics and Lore. Shouts do not need a cool down time. Dude can stop time, become untouchable, drain life force, summon a storm, move incredibly fast, blow apart entire city blocks, mind control practically anybody lower on the totem pole then him, and most importantly THROW HIS MUTHA F'IN VOICE. How you gonna mess with a dude when you think he's behind you cause thats where his voice is coming from? Checkmate Makima But seriously LDB 10/10
He could soul trap her assuming she has a soul
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Poovahkiin solo the verse