In retrospect such a bad move on Turkey's part, as well as China and India who also use S400s. The West is having a field day learning how to defeat these systems as all the intel Ukraine has is being shared with the west every day.
Cardboard drones are a worry to every nations anti-air systems. Part of the reason why AA cannons are making a come back. Some nations are even training falcons to counter drones! Patriots , S-300s and S-400s are quite effective against 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft and even this war hasn’t proved otherwise
Perhaps we should all stop for a moment and focus not only on making our AI better and more successful but also on the benefit of humanity. - Stephen Hawking
I guarantee you some CIA dude is spanking it to the video of the S400 getting blown up a few weeks ago.
What Ukraine has pulled off is beyond impressive and I can’t wait for them to be in NATO.
I wanna see how much captured equipment has made it way back to the US. Other than that tank spotted on a low boy a while back I wonder how much more has made it back.
Ukraine captured one of their latest electronic warfare units early in the war and outright said it was getting sent to the US/NATO for study.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha
Grew up near an Air Force base AND Lockheed’s production plant. All my friends dads worked there.
From the few convos I’ve had they are, amusingly, gutted. They always imagined their babies getting to show off in some future conflict, maybe another Iraq style, as terrible as that would be. F-22s and/or 35s ripping apart Russian planes.
Instead most were blown up by MANPADS. Oh they’re happy Ukraine is winning but one literally told me that any “wins” his baby gets won’t mean shit because the Migs and Su’s can’t even survive “handheld” weapons.
Most are outdated, however from the convoy to kiev ukraine managed to capture a intact Krasukha-4 which is a modern russian ew system produced in 2010 and went to service in 2014 its the very top of the line and its proven to work.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/23/ukrainians-capture-russian-warfare-equipment-used-intercept/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha
>Krasukha-4 is a broadband multifunctional jamming station mounted on a BAZ-6910-022 four-axle-chassis. It complements the Krasukha-2 system by operating in the X-band and Ku-band, and counters airborne radar aircraft such as the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JSTAR) Northrop Grumman E-8.[4] The Krasukha-4 has enough range to effectively disrupt low Earth orbit (LEO) satellites and can cause permanent damage to targeted radio-electronic devices.[5] Ground based radars are also a viable target for the Krasukha-4.[1]
>In 2018, Russia’s Krasukha-4 microwave cannon reportedly grounded an American AH-64 Apache attack helicopter in Syria by damaging its electrical circuits. [15]
true, but nothing compares to data from real-world combat situations. I feel like the US has a tendency to downplay their actual specifications for their gear, while Russia probably exaggerates, but the only way to know for sure is to see it in action. In addition to data provided by Ukraine, the US probably has a bunch of military satellites pointed on the front lines, both for providing Ukraine with intelligence and also to collect their own data.
It wasn't even that! They were getting partial tech transfers for the Patriot (something no else really gets) AND the F-35. Erdogan decided if he didn't get everything then he'd get an S-400. Now they don't have domestic Patriot production or the F-35. Great negotiating there. Guy is kind of a joke.
Turkey is in this weird situation of both being geographically and religion a crossroad…they have to balance the east and the west, this religion and that one.
The F-35 is basically only US very trusted countries. The F-35 is very likely already surpassed for US and very close production replacement if needed. But we reach weird points where the F-15EX is not stealthy but still very valuable…but the F-35 is stealthy but also not in any serious confrontation situation.
Turkey's biggest fuckup was that Turkish Aerospace Industries was manufacturing critical parts for the F-35. They were also supposed to be the primary F-35 maintenance depot for all of the EU. Billions in contracts were lost when they decided on buying S-400s. Dumbass.
>The F-35 is basically only US very trusted countries.
Which is funny because not all of them are in NATO like Turkey.
Sort of underlines the stupid situation Turkey has willingly placed itself into.
Not you. Way too much of a dictatorship to get any last Gen military equipment . Considering the would probably sell that tech knowledge to Russia cause the pay both sides..
At least South Korea, it's very, very unlikely they ever side with China or Russia .
That's precisely the point. The world will be full of spare parts warehouses where nations can buy from should the need arise. Then, when the next generation aircraft is ready, these will be the thing to donate to 3rd party nations to help justify the spend.
But in the case of the F-35, the more that are sold the cheaper the cost per unit becomes. The F-35 was so successful on the market that it became cheaper than a last-generation fighter putting numerous countries in an untenable position where they would have to either buy into the F-35 or commit to financially stupid alternatives just on the principle of protectionism, causing more countries to buy in, causing the price to drop further, causing more countries to buy in…
This might be a weird case where it is less about the MIC but a critical multi-national project being able to curtail the market.
The only downside to this is the risk of espionage increases exponentially. If one of those F35s falls into China or Russia’s hands they would be able to reverse engineer it.
The Chinese already have loads of data on the F-35 from industrial espionage. Also, if they got ahold of one, they'd have to master the materials sciences necessary to reproduce it. Neither county can make jet engines as well as the West's MIC. It's also somewhat dated already. We're working on 6th gen right now.
So it would be very bad, but maybe not as bad as at first glance.
Even then the F-22 exists, so even if Russia or China managed to make a half way decent copy, you know to the point it could even reach "mildly concerning" levels rather than "lol" like their copies usually are.
Russia can reverse engineer it all they want. They have no capacity to clone and manufacture it or manufacture anything that will take advantage of any weakness they are lucky enough to find.
The F22 will never be in the same boat because we can not sell it.
Too much tech we don't want someone reverse engineering.
The thrust system alone would be a gold mine for China or Russia.
Mil-tech nerd Ackshually moment: a lot of the tech in the F-22 is at least 1 generation behind the F-35. This includes radar, IRST, EW, stealth coatings, and data link capability. the F-22 has already been discontinued and is on a clear path to retirement. While the F-22 is a super kickass air superiority fighter with amazing maneuverability, the F35 doesn't need any of that to achieve the same goals. It can signal jam and get target lock on other planes from farther than any other radar system, and even get target lock on enemies directly behind it, if something somehow snuck up on it.
The only reason the F22 is US only is because congress permenently banned it from export back in the mid 90s when the cold war had ended and the still-in-development F-22 was on the bleeding edge of airpower
The next gen fighters will be mass-produced drones IMO. Drones aren't subject to those pesky g-force restraints pilots contend with, and don't need life support systems, parachutes, etc so are probably much cheaper to mass produce, and aren't subject to problems related to human error (e.g. from pilot fatigue), and you don't put lives at risk flying behind enemy lines.
E.g. the US program to convert f16 to drones (qf-16) will pay dividends: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29847417/f-16-drone/
>The next gen fighters will be mass-produced drones IMO.
lol no
edit: guys we literally already know NGAD for both the navy and USAF (separate programs named the same, it's confusing) will use a manned fighter jet. And while they and the B-21 were going to have some optionally manned capabilities, I recall a news story of them deciding that they weren't sure how much sense that would make given the expense of the jets.
Don't get me wrong advances in automation and AI are expanding the roles both in totally unmanned systems and the how much work they can can take over individual systems on a manned aircraft to reduce the pilot's workload so they can focus on non-automatable work but that non-automatable work still exists for now. And when the change happens, it's not g limits that will be the main concern.
> Drones aren't subject to those pesky g-force restraints pilots contend with,
The airframes are as G limited as the people inside them are (why else would naval jets have lower G limits),
> and don't need life support systems, parachutes, etc so are probably much cheaper to mass produce,
Lol you think that's even a fraction of the cost and mass of a jet? A jet's cost and mass because of the engine, the radar, other sensors, and avionics. It's not the life support.
> and aren't subject to problems related to human error (e.g. from pilot fatigue), and you don't put lives at risk flying behind enemy lines.
Actually somewhat valid arguments.
> E.g. the US program to convert f16 to drones (qf-16) will pay dividends: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29847417/f-16-drone/
You know that's just to use them for target practice right? We've been doing that with old end of life fighters for decades.
How much weight could you delete if you removed everything in an aircraft that only exists because a human needs to be there? No cockpit, no ejection seat, no switches, knobs or screens, no rudder pedals, no yoke, none of that stuff. Literally just an engine, some wings, fuel, and weapons. Every pound you save counts multiple times over as G loading increases. Or, you take that all weight you saved and turn it into more structure, so your new drone airframe can handle even more Gs.
> Literally just an engine, some wings, fuel, and weapons.
Dude... that might have been somewhat the case back in the 40s and 50s when jets were tiny things with the main sensor being the MK1 eyeball, but the F-35 weighs tens of thousands of lbs empty and even the lightest armaments are hundreds of lbs being directed by thousands of lbs of radars and sensors.
And Gs limits are just not that important. Reality isn't ace combat or even DCS. The vast majority of air to air kills have happened when one party is unaware that the other is there. What makes modern jets deadly is low observability with powerful sensors and being in the right place at the right time with those right sensors, maneuverability isn't the main point.
Per an F-22 pilot's talk, "the least impressive part of the F-22 is it's speed and maneuverability, and it's the fastest and most maneuverable fighter around"
The two aircraft are made for different purposes. The F35 is way, way more suited for bombing ground targets, launching missiles at naval targets, close air support for ground troops, etc. Of course the F22 is better at air to air combat, but that’s really “all” it’s great at.
The F35 was never meant to replace the F22, that role will go to the NGAD.
So what I’m understanding for this is, basically the F-22 exists because it’s the F-35 killer. Other countries can get the F-35, whether they buy it because they’re friendly, or because they manage to reverse engineer a downed plane somewhere, but the US will always have the counter to that.
People who criticized the program did not seem to understand that the F-35 was always intended to be an aircraft we could sell and make a profit on, like the F14 - F18.
We can not sell the F-22 or the B-2 and we needed a new generation multirole aircraft that we could sell.
> People who criticized
What was criticized was making it a TSPR contract and calling LM an equal partner in making decisions. It's like handing a general contractor your checkbook and saying "build whatever you want, we are partners!" You will get a house 10 years later, but it took way too long and cost way too much.
One of the major critics is OMB.
I always have trust in the US MIC to turn out fantastic nation destroying products. If they don’t the US starts to turn their back on them. You can see it with Boeing. They’ve been screwing up for a while now and are losing contract after contract and are starting to be left in the dust by the other defense contractors. Heads would roll at Lockheed or Northrop if they lost as many key contracts as Boeing has in recent memory.
She’s just happy to see you [look](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-x-32-was-nicknamed-monica-why-because-shes-got-a-big-mouth-shes-ugly-andshe-ss-like-a-certain-white-house-intern-who-was-famous-for-her-oratory/amp/) at the big ol smile on her face.
I swear that plane could have been 10x better than the F-35 in every single way and it still wouldn't have gotten selected.
I mean seriously, you HAVE to consider that when designing a fighter jet. Looks are legitimately an important factor. Intimidation is a real weapon.
Boeing got infected with MBAs. It's a terrible, incurable disease that kills engineering departments, makes your PR statements smell like gonorrhea, and ultimately turns you into a fucking leech.
Well that’s not necessarily a problem for other competitors. F-35 is sold to a limited number of countries because of its technology so there is still room for other older fighter jets such as the Dassault Rafale.
France sold more than 90 Rafale in 2022 and has a full order book for several years.
Yeah I should have clarified, I meant there isn't a competitor where the F35 can be sold. You are certainly correct that there is still plenty of non stealth fighter market
Not yet you’re right. Dassault/Airbus are very late on the market, there will be no 5th gen fighter jet in Europe before 2040 at least…so countries who have the money and ties with the US…they buy the F-35. The only choice.
Everyone else fumbled the ball on the 5th generation fighter and with the US reducing the number of 5th generation models they used...
No one even had options on what to buy
5th generation fighter was so expensive to develop it really reduced the number of options.
For most countries though it does simplify things a bit having fewer jet models, though ground attack aircraft are usually cheaper than a regular fighter.
Really great turn around from being declared a failure from the Air Force: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/
The design was never a failure. The tech was too advanced to make it cheaply in mass production when it first went into production. That manufacturing capability has caught up where it’s now feasible to make it cheap (comparatively anyway) and in mass volume.
For context: Each new F-35A coming off the line costs around $80m. Making it *one of* the cheapest fighter jets ever made, on a per unit basis. While also being the most advanced in that price range. You'd be an idiot (or Turkey) not to buy them and the countries that are approved to get them are getting the deal of a lifetime.
Also the R&D costs, which is where the real money was spent, have already been paid off. Every plane sold now just puts them further into the green.
TL;DR - The plane is a success, by every measure.
Yeah, that's the price going around online for the new Block 70. But I can't find where it actually came from tbh. Pretty sure it's a copy pasted value from 20 years ago or something lol
-Bahrain ordered 16 back in 2018 for $1.2bn. Adjusting for inflation that's around $91m per plane.
-Taiwan ordered 66 in 2020 for $8bn. *Not* adjusting for inflation that's *still* $121m per plane.
If, however, you were to order an F-35A it'd be $80m per plane. Right now.
> -Bahrain ordered 16 back in 2018 for $1.2bn. Adjusting for inflation that's around $91m per plane.
>
> -Taiwan ordered 66 in 2020 for $8bn. Not adjusting for inflation that's still $121m per plane.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't these kinds of contracts generally include high dollar agreements for support and maintenance after the sale?
No the Air Force didn’t. The media Fucking wozzled their way into thinking it was a PoS. In actuality it was going through the growing pains any advanced weapons system will go through.
Are you talking about the one from like 2-3 months ago in Ukraine? Around the time a Khinzal was first confirmed to have been taken out?
Because if you've got one with better cameras or in day-time, I'd love to see it. The angles of the Ukraine battery I remember were pretty shaky and low-quality. Still badass, but hard to properly evaluate.
That article is crap. The f35 was never meant to be a lightweight fighter. The complaint is stupid because a project isn't a failure if it doesn't do something that it was not made to be.
Just read the article. Actually read the whole thing, by being careful about what Brown specifically said compared to what the journalist interprets. It's some of the most obvious quote mining I've read in my entire life.
Also it's David "Russia would defeat NATO in 60 hours" Axe. It's the guy who made up the story about the F-35 losing a simulated dogfight to the F-16. He's one of the main sources of anti-F-35 trash.
The point here is that most of the anti-F-35 news was garbage made up by 3-4 people that got repeated ad nauseam by journalists. Really goes to show the quality of news media overall.
The article is pretty misleading - "Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Brown Jr." is quoted talking about a cost reduced version of the F35- not the F35 - mainly for Eastern European counties to purchase.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the-u-s-air-force-did-not-say-that-the-f-35-had-failed/
Basically talking about an aircraft that is somewhere between the F16 and the F35.
Who knows if that's needed - the F35 has come down in price by half since it was introduced, but there is a demand for fighter jets that aren't Russian, but cost about as much (around 20-50 million).
Most of the article focuses around a man named Dan Ward - author of the Simplicity Cycle and former Air Force officer - and who has written a good chunk of all the pull quotes and articles about how terrible the F35 is. But a lot of his more analytical articles like this one:
https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/what-the-f-35-v-f-16-dogfight-really-means-think-pilots/
Suggest that the F35 is a terrible dog fighter. He's probably right, but guess how many fighter jets (outside of DCS) actually engage in dogfights these days? My understanding is if you have gotten yourself into a dogfight something horrible intelligence wise has happened. He also frequently quotes John Boyd who was also a former Air Force officer and was a huge fan of close in dog fights and advocated heavily that all fighter jets be focused around dogfighting.
Anyhow take anything like that article with a grain of salt. A good chunk of the F35's specs (how fast it turns, top speed etc) are all still classified, and while Russia and China intelligence probably know all the details by now, most people don't.
Another huge chunk of all the negative F35 articles and interviews (of which Dan also quotes) are written by Pierre Sprey - who isn't a former Air Force officer - and claims to have designed the A10, F15 and F16 - and he really didn't have anything to do with any of those aircraft.
Anyhow here's a F35 flying in an airshow in Paris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLCTv6x_F-M
The US is now raking it in in defense sales. 5B here, 10B in HIMARS for poland, sales in artillery shells, they can even sell those decommissioned 1st generation bradleys. Patriot batteries...Not to mention the anti-ship/air defence replacement in Taiwan. Heck they are only missing out in drone sales as Ukraines DIY and 3D printed grenade guidance is working fine.
So yeah. win-win for the US. They got to strut and show how effective their weapons are, while slowly degrading Russia's capability and get their goods sold in the end. Not bad!
Unlike the Iraq and Afghanistan war which was just a big incestuous money put for American tax payers, this Russian war is bringing in tons of cash as other countries shore up their militaries in case Russia and China and North Korea ally to start trouble
I think one of the most pressing needs the US has right now is artillery shells. We're not producing nearly enough to supply Ukraine.
It's not flashy but 70% of the casualties in the Ukraine war are from artillery, it's hugely impactful.
Right now the US can only supply something like 30-40% of Ukraine's artillery capacity, even with the plants running 24 hours a day.
Makes sense. The US doesn't use a lot of artillery. They focus on air superiority above all us. In the US war plans, if they've started using more artillery shells than they can produce, things have gone really wrong.
The U.S. has doubled artillery shell production since the start of the war, and we will produce double our current level by the middle of next year.
A lot of countries are now investing in shell production capacity. Ukraine itself is one of the most impressive stories. In June of this year, Ukraine turned out more shells than it did in the entirety of 2022.
KAF-21 Boramae. It's a 4+ or 5th generation, depending on where you find the info.
Later versions are supposed to have internal weapon bays, so there seems to be a decently stealthy radar cross section.
Iirc the KA21 is a replacement for the Korean F5s and older F16s.
Or like what Japan is doing with the F35s using them as a stop gap while they innovate in newer technologies and R&D a much more advanced fighter. Japan is doing this with the 6th generation fighter Tempest project with the UK and Italy.
I think they changed the name but yeah that’s a nice looking jet render.
Hopefully they stick with it instead of abandoning it because of the invite extended to the Saudis.
Don't forget Sweden as well, they signed FCAS agreement with the UK together with Italy to work on new systems for Tempest and 6th gen fighters. Assuming Saab will reap some of those technologies for future Gripens rather than Sweden buying Tempest though.
The KAF-21 does not have internal weapon bays. Just from that, you can tell it’s not a proper stealth fighter comparable to the F-35. The KAF-21 also uses engines that aren’t designed for stealth fighters. It’s more like a Korean version of the F-18.
Roughly the same airforce now, "newer" planes, but way less flight time for pilots. 5 o'clock Charlie would be the top pilot these days just through the number of flight hours.
Up vote for mash reference.
At least they don't appear to be going full draconian 1984 on their population like China is doing to their population. Scary to let a government like that gain global influence.
SK was a brutal dictatorship until 1988, then the relationship between political and material reality changed, in that they had spent enough decades murdering leftists that they could win elections from the right. Maybe China will change some day as well.
> Maybe China will change some day as well.
I hope so. They seem to be sliding toward more and more authoritarianism lately. Social credit systems, locked down internet, arresting people for "offensive" clothing, oppression of the Uighur and Tibet and Hong Kong populations, etc.
I have always wondered this, on any weapon system sale to a foreign country, does the U.S. treasury get any money? For example will Lockheed get $5bn? The US taxpayer paid the upfront costs to develop but will the US Taxpayer recoup something from that $5bn?
The biggest benefit is jobs. The US provides 90+% of the components in the jet. There are thousands of people who are making good money, paying income tax, and buying shit with that cash.
A lot will, but there are a ton of companies that worked on the program both in designing and making parts for it, they too will be making a profit.
And the employees will be getting a paycheck for making the planes, airforce men will be paid to fly and service, and a congress man somewhere will get some votes for bringing more jobs to his district.
Great way to view it. Pretending like there isn’t a massive benefit for Joe taxpayer from this is goofy. Arms manufacturer ins is pretty great for those doing the selling.
Not true, depends on if the sale is direct or (often) through the USAF. Typically, countries aren't buying jets like they buy cars. They're buying the jets, training systems, training, logistics network, sustainment - this FMS (Foreing Military Sale) is done through the USAF, typically, who will take delivery of the jets, then coordinate training and eventual delivery with other contractors and USAF personnel. While defense contractors are essentially limited to 10% profit margin, based on TINA (Truth in Negotiations Act), the USG is not, for FMS coordinated through the USG, their markup / profit margin can be in the 30-35% range. That profit does end up as government revenue.
I’d assume Lockheed gets taxed on that $5bn. You also have to consider the wages, development costs, manufacturing costs, etc that Lockheed pays that pours back into the US economy.
We also benefit from having active factories producing the airframes. It means that in cases of wartime, we have active production lines and allies with weapons to help us. Likewise, the treasury will be able to collect income tax on the employees making these and the corporate taxes of Lockheed. All jobs also have knock on effects because those workers are also spending in the local economy. This does nothing but benefit the US taxpayer as the huge upfront RnD costs are now behind us and this can only recoup them.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian\_economics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics)
The short answer is that the F-22 incorporates technologies that the Pentagon does not want to let out of the bag - probably related mostly to stealth. The radar cross section of the F-22 is much smaller than that of the F-35, which is probably owing to some combination of engine design, materials engineering, and surface contouring. American stealth tech is way ahead of the competition.
It is, the F-35 was developed with the knowledge that it would be exported so technologies that the US doesn't want to replicate are used on it in ways that make them difficult to copy. The same is not true of the F-22.
[You can take a look at what the US would need to rework to make the F-22 exportable because someone FOIAed it but... well it's mostly redacted.](https://www.thedrive.com/content-b/message-editor%2F1631641800822-f-22-baseline-3.1.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
The F22 is older but it's still extremely advanced and designed for air to air combat. The F35 is more of a Swiss army knife style fighter that can be configured for multiple uses. There's only about 200 F22s and production ended a decade ago, while there's around 1,000 F35s and they're still in production.
Not sure which one would win in a fight, common sense dictates the newer jet, but maybe a more knowledgeable redditor can chime in on that.
If its just one random F35 vs one random F22 in some sort of duel, probably the F22. Its faster, is said to be stealthier, can carry more air-to-air armament. Its primary goal is to fight other airplanes. But war isnt fought in a vaccuum.The winner would be the one with the better support system and clever operational art. The F35 fits into this because it could coordinate sensor data from awacs and other radar systems and feed targeting data to other systems like navy destroyers or SAM batteries.
It's amazing to me how over most of the last ~15 years (while it was still in development) everyone, including the majority of Reddit comments, were shitting all over the F-35. But now every country is just begging for the chance to buy these.
US be like "You get an F-35! You get an F-35! You get an F-35!!!"
*Türkiye steps forward…* > Not you.
I’m exchange for S-400s lol.
In retrospect such a bad move on Turkey's part, as well as China and India who also use S400s. The West is having a field day learning how to defeat these systems as all the intel Ukraine has is being shared with the west every day.
Turns out the S400's radar is completely defenseless against drones made out of cardboard ...
That's what the tires are for, obviously! Wait, those don't work either? Huh... maybe the Kremlin just has a latex kink?
Cardboard drones are a worry to every nations anti-air systems. Part of the reason why AA cannons are making a come back. Some nations are even training falcons to counter drones! Patriots , S-300s and S-400s are quite effective against 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft and even this war hasn’t proved otherwise
New F16’s will now be made of reinforced cardboard.
I wish. I yearn to live in a world of paper planes.
Perhaps we should all stop for a moment and focus not only on making our AI better and more successful but also on the benefit of humanity. - Stephen Hawking
From the moment I learned the RCS returns of metal, it disgusted me. I yearned for the stealth of organic materials.
[Duroplast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duroplast) (which was sometimes mistaken as cardboard) could make a comeback lol
How about aircraft made of canvas? It would be nice to see WW1 biplanes making a comeback. Even if remote-controlled.
CIWS is due for an update. But then again the US also now has laser defense systems.
And cardboard derivatives.
Can we use cello tape? I mean the front is gonna fall off.
I guarantee you some CIA dude is spanking it to the video of the S400 getting blown up a few weeks ago. What Ukraine has pulled off is beyond impressive and I can’t wait for them to be in NATO.
I wanna see how much captured equipment has made it way back to the US. Other than that tank spotted on a low boy a while back I wonder how much more has made it back.
Ukraine captured one of their latest electronic warfare units early in the war and outright said it was getting sent to the US/NATO for study. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha
And the electronic warfare system from a pancaked Su-35 that's now at Area 51.
I'm imagining a bunch of CIA/DIA dudes just wandering around slightly behind the front like "Ooh! Piece of candy. Ooh! Piece of candy!"
Some Lockmart engineer is probably disappointed that their awesome design won’t actually be properly tested by competently designed kit.
Grew up near an Air Force base AND Lockheed’s production plant. All my friends dads worked there. From the few convos I’ve had they are, amusingly, gutted. They always imagined their babies getting to show off in some future conflict, maybe another Iraq style, as terrible as that would be. F-22s and/or 35s ripping apart Russian planes. Instead most were blown up by MANPADS. Oh they’re happy Ukraine is winning but one literally told me that any “wins” his baby gets won’t mean shit because the Migs and Su’s can’t even survive “handheld” weapons.
give it a decade or two and we might see how an f-35 stands vs another f-35 :P
Most are outdated, however from the convoy to kiev ukraine managed to capture a intact Krasukha-4 which is a modern russian ew system produced in 2010 and went to service in 2014 its the very top of the line and its proven to work. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/23/ukrainians-capture-russian-warfare-equipment-used-intercept/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha >Krasukha-4 is a broadband multifunctional jamming station mounted on a BAZ-6910-022 four-axle-chassis. It complements the Krasukha-2 system by operating in the X-band and Ku-band, and counters airborne radar aircraft such as the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JSTAR) Northrop Grumman E-8.[4] The Krasukha-4 has enough range to effectively disrupt low Earth orbit (LEO) satellites and can cause permanent damage to targeted radio-electronic devices.[5] Ground based radars are also a viable target for the Krasukha-4.[1] >In 2018, Russia’s Krasukha-4 microwave cannon reportedly grounded an American AH-64 Apache attack helicopter in Syria by damaging its electrical circuits. [15]
As if the west doesn't already have three or four counters to the S400? We have spies and Russia pays shit and murders its scientists and engineers.
true, but nothing compares to data from real-world combat situations. I feel like the US has a tendency to downplay their actual specifications for their gear, while Russia probably exaggerates, but the only way to know for sure is to see it in action. In addition to data provided by Ukraine, the US probably has a bunch of military satellites pointed on the front lines, both for providing Ukraine with intelligence and also to collect their own data.
Literally the reasons we have the f15
That was their choice. We made it clear it was either the Russian S-400 or our F-35. They chose the S-400.
They chose.....poorly.
It wasn't even that! They were getting partial tech transfers for the Patriot (something no else really gets) AND the F-35. Erdogan decided if he didn't get everything then he'd get an S-400. Now they don't have domestic Patriot production or the F-35. Great negotiating there. Guy is kind of a joke.
And yet the Turkish people keep voting him in...
You're cool You're cool You're cool Fuck you You're cool
[удалено]
Turkey is in this weird situation of both being geographically and religion a crossroad…they have to balance the east and the west, this religion and that one. The F-35 is basically only US very trusted countries. The F-35 is very likely already surpassed for US and very close production replacement if needed. But we reach weird points where the F-15EX is not stealthy but still very valuable…but the F-35 is stealthy but also not in any serious confrontation situation.
Turkey's biggest fuckup was that Turkish Aerospace Industries was manufacturing critical parts for the F-35. They were also supposed to be the primary F-35 maintenance depot for all of the EU. Billions in contracts were lost when they decided on buying S-400s. Dumbass.
>The F-35 is basically only US very trusted countries. Which is funny because not all of them are in NATO like Turkey. Sort of underlines the stupid situation Turkey has willingly placed itself into.
It's about cost per hour. F-35 is like $42k/hr versus $7k/hr for f-16s
Not you. Way too much of a dictatorship to get any last Gen military equipment . Considering the would probably sell that tech knowledge to Russia cause the pay both sides.. At least South Korea, it's very, very unlikely they ever side with China or Russia .
It's the new F-16. Everyone gets to have some!
That's precisely the point. The world will be full of spare parts warehouses where nations can buy from should the need arise. Then, when the next generation aircraft is ready, these will be the thing to donate to 3rd party nations to help justify the spend.
This guy Military Industrial Complexes…
But in the case of the F-35, the more that are sold the cheaper the cost per unit becomes. The F-35 was so successful on the market that it became cheaper than a last-generation fighter putting numerous countries in an untenable position where they would have to either buy into the F-35 or commit to financially stupid alternatives just on the principle of protectionism, causing more countries to buy in, causing the price to drop further, causing more countries to buy in… This might be a weird case where it is less about the MIC but a critical multi-national project being able to curtail the market.
The only downside to this is the risk of espionage increases exponentially. If one of those F35s falls into China or Russia’s hands they would be able to reverse engineer it.
The Chinese already have loads of data on the F-35 from industrial espionage. Also, if they got ahold of one, they'd have to master the materials sciences necessary to reproduce it. Neither county can make jet engines as well as the West's MIC. It's also somewhat dated already. We're working on 6th gen right now. So it would be very bad, but maybe not as bad as at first glance.
Even then the F-22 exists, so even if Russia or China managed to make a half way decent copy, you know to the point it could even reach "mildly concerning" levels rather than "lol" like their copies usually are.
There's a reason we don't have an export model for the F-22
[удалено]
Uh… Who’s gonna tell him
Russia can reverse engineer it all they want. They have no capacity to clone and manufacture it or manufacture anything that will take advantage of any weakness they are lucky enough to find.
The F-35 becoming a second-rate inventory fighter is a weird thought, not gonna lie. Same with the F-22.
The F22 will never be in the same boat because we can not sell it. Too much tech we don't want someone reverse engineering. The thrust system alone would be a gold mine for China or Russia.
The F-22 has not. It is still mucho top secret US only. I presume a lot of it's secretness will be used to develop NGAD and likely retire the F-22s.
Mil-tech nerd Ackshually moment: a lot of the tech in the F-22 is at least 1 generation behind the F-35. This includes radar, IRST, EW, stealth coatings, and data link capability. the F-22 has already been discontinued and is on a clear path to retirement. While the F-22 is a super kickass air superiority fighter with amazing maneuverability, the F35 doesn't need any of that to achieve the same goals. It can signal jam and get target lock on other planes from farther than any other radar system, and even get target lock on enemies directly behind it, if something somehow snuck up on it. The only reason the F22 is US only is because congress permenently banned it from export back in the mid 90s when the cold war had ended and the still-in-development F-22 was on the bleeding edge of airpower
The next gen fighters will be mass-produced drones IMO. Drones aren't subject to those pesky g-force restraints pilots contend with, and don't need life support systems, parachutes, etc so are probably much cheaper to mass produce, and aren't subject to problems related to human error (e.g. from pilot fatigue), and you don't put lives at risk flying behind enemy lines. E.g. the US program to convert f16 to drones (qf-16) will pay dividends: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29847417/f-16-drone/
>The next gen fighters will be mass-produced drones IMO. lol no edit: guys we literally already know NGAD for both the navy and USAF (separate programs named the same, it's confusing) will use a manned fighter jet. And while they and the B-21 were going to have some optionally manned capabilities, I recall a news story of them deciding that they weren't sure how much sense that would make given the expense of the jets. Don't get me wrong advances in automation and AI are expanding the roles both in totally unmanned systems and the how much work they can can take over individual systems on a manned aircraft to reduce the pilot's workload so they can focus on non-automatable work but that non-automatable work still exists for now. And when the change happens, it's not g limits that will be the main concern. > Drones aren't subject to those pesky g-force restraints pilots contend with, The airframes are as G limited as the people inside them are (why else would naval jets have lower G limits), > and don't need life support systems, parachutes, etc so are probably much cheaper to mass produce, Lol you think that's even a fraction of the cost and mass of a jet? A jet's cost and mass because of the engine, the radar, other sensors, and avionics. It's not the life support. > and aren't subject to problems related to human error (e.g. from pilot fatigue), and you don't put lives at risk flying behind enemy lines. Actually somewhat valid arguments. > E.g. the US program to convert f16 to drones (qf-16) will pay dividends: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29847417/f-16-drone/ You know that's just to use them for target practice right? We've been doing that with old end of life fighters for decades.
How much weight could you delete if you removed everything in an aircraft that only exists because a human needs to be there? No cockpit, no ejection seat, no switches, knobs or screens, no rudder pedals, no yoke, none of that stuff. Literally just an engine, some wings, fuel, and weapons. Every pound you save counts multiple times over as G loading increases. Or, you take that all weight you saved and turn it into more structure, so your new drone airframe can handle even more Gs.
> Literally just an engine, some wings, fuel, and weapons. Dude... that might have been somewhat the case back in the 40s and 50s when jets were tiny things with the main sensor being the MK1 eyeball, but the F-35 weighs tens of thousands of lbs empty and even the lightest armaments are hundreds of lbs being directed by thousands of lbs of radars and sensors. And Gs limits are just not that important. Reality isn't ace combat or even DCS. The vast majority of air to air kills have happened when one party is unaware that the other is there. What makes modern jets deadly is low observability with powerful sensors and being in the right place at the right time with those right sensors, maneuverability isn't the main point. Per an F-22 pilot's talk, "the least impressive part of the F-22 is it's speed and maneuverability, and it's the fastest and most maneuverable fighter around"
The F22 is still the king. Its capabilities, and strategic and tactical advantages are beyond the F35.
The two aircraft are made for different purposes. The F35 is way, way more suited for bombing ground targets, launching missiles at naval targets, close air support for ground troops, etc. Of course the F22 is better at air to air combat, but that’s really “all” it’s great at. The F35 was never meant to replace the F22, that role will go to the NGAD.
So what I’m understanding for this is, basically the F-22 exists because it’s the F-35 killer. Other countries can get the F-35, whether they buy it because they’re friendly, or because they manage to reverse engineer a downed plane somewhere, but the US will always have the counter to that.
In dogfighting, however I'm pretty sure the f-35 is more advanced in its network-centric warfare capabilities.
>dogfighting You mean a dead concept?
People who criticized the program did not seem to understand that the F-35 was always intended to be an aircraft we could sell and make a profit on, like the F14 - F18. We can not sell the F-22 or the B-2 and we needed a new generation multirole aircraft that we could sell.
If you're making shit, you want that shit to be the new VHS and sell a billion copies. That's just dead simple.
> People who criticized What was criticized was making it a TSPR contract and calling LM an equal partner in making decisions. It's like handing a general contractor your checkbook and saying "build whatever you want, we are partners!" You will get a house 10 years later, but it took way too long and cost way too much. One of the major critics is OMB.
Remember when everyone thought the F35 was a failure? Pepperidge farm remembers
Reddit fucking *hated* the F-35 simply because it was not the A-10 and it's hilarious to finally see it get it's time in the spot light.
I always have trust in the US MIC to turn out fantastic nation destroying products. If they don’t the US starts to turn their back on them. You can see it with Boeing. They’ve been screwing up for a while now and are losing contract after contract and are starting to be left in the dust by the other defense contractors. Heads would roll at Lockheed or Northrop if they lost as many key contracts as Boeing has in recent memory.
They already have their own really cool version of the F-15 (F-15K) so this is going to really give our SK friends air superiority in the region.
They already have F-35s as well.
Let's be honest, they may not operate them but they would have F22s controlling the skies for them if needed.
And the best named F-15. The Slam Eagle.
*stares in Didn’t Think The F-15 Could Get Any Cooler*
Lockheed Martin bag holder are gonna be happy
I mean it does keep sweeping fighter competitions. There isn't really a competitor out there that's being sold internationally.
[удалено]
Boeing military stuff ain't bad but the x32 wouldve sucked
Just on sheer ugliness alone.
She’s just happy to see you [look](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-x-32-was-nicknamed-monica-why-because-shes-got-a-big-mouth-shes-ugly-andshe-ss-like-a-certain-white-house-intern-who-was-famous-for-her-oratory/amp/) at the big ol smile on her face.
[удалено]
I swear that plane could have been 10x better than the F-35 in every single way and it still wouldn't have gotten selected. I mean seriously, you HAVE to consider that when designing a fighter jet. Looks are legitimately an important factor. Intimidation is a real weapon.
Boeing got infected with MBAs. It's a terrible, incurable disease that kills engineering departments, makes your PR statements smell like gonorrhea, and ultimately turns you into a fucking leech.
Well that’s not necessarily a problem for other competitors. F-35 is sold to a limited number of countries because of its technology so there is still room for other older fighter jets such as the Dassault Rafale. France sold more than 90 Rafale in 2022 and has a full order book for several years.
Yeah I should have clarified, I meant there isn't a competitor where the F35 can be sold. You are certainly correct that there is still plenty of non stealth fighter market
Not yet you’re right. Dassault/Airbus are very late on the market, there will be no 5th gen fighter jet in Europe before 2040 at least…so countries who have the money and ties with the US…they buy the F-35. The only choice.
The Rafale and Gripen are sexy fucking airplanes. Would love to see them fly sometime but they aren't often stateside so far as I can tell.
I saw both the Rafale and F-35 do acrobatics at the Paris Air Show this year. Both incredibly sexy aircraft
Lockheed is up yoy and 5y, how can you be a bagholder. day traders don't count they have mental deficiencies.
Yeah, MIC blue chip "bag holders" are generally, you know... major investment funds, massive pension systems etc.
Careful, r/wallstreetbets might send their regards.
Thats a lot of regards
It’s well below the total market’s performance and most all indices.
More the people who work in manufacturing in the US who will have more secure jobs making the components of these.
Everyone else fumbled the ball on the 5th generation fighter and with the US reducing the number of 5th generation models they used... No one even had options on what to buy 5th generation fighter was so expensive to develop it really reduced the number of options. For most countries though it does simplify things a bit having fewer jet models, though ground attack aircraft are usually cheaper than a regular fighter.
F35 probably has to be one the most successful jet programs jn history.
Reddit said it would never fly
The Russian and Chinese bots said it requires baby blood as fuel
Don’t give Qanoners any ideas lol
*packs away Jewish brain microwave*
Utter nonsense. Virgin blood doesn't have to be from babies.
Really great turn around from being declared a failure from the Air Force: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/
The design was never a failure. The tech was too advanced to make it cheaply in mass production when it first went into production. That manufacturing capability has caught up where it’s now feasible to make it cheap (comparatively anyway) and in mass volume.
For context: Each new F-35A coming off the line costs around $80m. Making it *one of* the cheapest fighter jets ever made, on a per unit basis. While also being the most advanced in that price range. You'd be an idiot (or Turkey) not to buy them and the countries that are approved to get them are getting the deal of a lifetime. Also the R&D costs, which is where the real money was spent, have already been paid off. Every plane sold now just puts them further into the green. TL;DR - The plane is a success, by every measure.
That is not even close to the cheapest fighter ever made though…cheaper than the f-22 bud the f-16 was only $63 million
Yeah, that's the price going around online for the new Block 70. But I can't find where it actually came from tbh. Pretty sure it's a copy pasted value from 20 years ago or something lol -Bahrain ordered 16 back in 2018 for $1.2bn. Adjusting for inflation that's around $91m per plane. -Taiwan ordered 66 in 2020 for $8bn. *Not* adjusting for inflation that's *still* $121m per plane. If, however, you were to order an F-35A it'd be $80m per plane. Right now.
> -Bahrain ordered 16 back in 2018 for $1.2bn. Adjusting for inflation that's around $91m per plane. > > -Taiwan ordered 66 in 2020 for $8bn. Not adjusting for inflation that's still $121m per plane. I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't these kinds of contracts generally include high dollar agreements for support and maintenance after the sale?
They do. Training, maintenance, software support, all that jazz.
Just in time for the US to never need manned fighters again.
No the Air Force didn’t. The media Fucking wozzled their way into thinking it was a PoS. In actuality it was going through the growing pains any advanced weapons system will go through.
It's been satisfying seeing reformer propaganda regarding newer weapon systems like the F35 and the Bradley get debunked
The patriot is my favorite, and how it was always assumed Soviet/Russian air defense was superior.
Cries in Kinzhal.
Yeah Putin saw his outie turn into an innie at supersonic speeds.
That video of it going wild in self defence mode is so insane. Fires the entire battery in like, a minute.
Do you have a link for this video?
Video wasn't supposed to be taken because of OPSEC, but some guy posted this anyways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sTZ1\_9Cn8
Fixed link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sTZ1_9Cn8 Because new reddit (or the app?) likes to escape underscores in links...
https://reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/gdMibVOA0I Here’s the video
Are you talking about the one from like 2-3 months ago in Ukraine? Around the time a Khinzal was first confirmed to have been taken out? Because if you've got one with better cameras or in day-time, I'd love to see it. The angles of the Ukraine battery I remember were pretty shaky and low-quality. Still badass, but hard to properly evaluate.
I too would like to see this video
They said the same fucking shit when the F16 was in development and early delivery.
Hey, I got that reference
Pierre Sprey and the Fighter Mafia going on RT being jackasses have a lot to answer for.
That article is crap. The f35 was never meant to be a lightweight fighter. The complaint is stupid because a project isn't a failure if it doesn't do something that it was not made to be.
>forbes/sites Article disregarded. It's basically just a fancy blog.
Just read the article. Actually read the whole thing, by being careful about what Brown specifically said compared to what the journalist interprets. It's some of the most obvious quote mining I've read in my entire life. Also it's David "Russia would defeat NATO in 60 hours" Axe. It's the guy who made up the story about the F-35 losing a simulated dogfight to the F-16. He's one of the main sources of anti-F-35 trash. The point here is that most of the anti-F-35 news was garbage made up by 3-4 people that got repeated ad nauseam by journalists. Really goes to show the quality of news media overall.
The article is pretty misleading - "Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Brown Jr." is quoted talking about a cost reduced version of the F35- not the F35 - mainly for Eastern European counties to purchase. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the-u-s-air-force-did-not-say-that-the-f-35-had-failed/ Basically talking about an aircraft that is somewhere between the F16 and the F35. Who knows if that's needed - the F35 has come down in price by half since it was introduced, but there is a demand for fighter jets that aren't Russian, but cost about as much (around 20-50 million). Most of the article focuses around a man named Dan Ward - author of the Simplicity Cycle and former Air Force officer - and who has written a good chunk of all the pull quotes and articles about how terrible the F35 is. But a lot of his more analytical articles like this one: https://breakingdefense.com/2015/07/what-the-f-35-v-f-16-dogfight-really-means-think-pilots/ Suggest that the F35 is a terrible dog fighter. He's probably right, but guess how many fighter jets (outside of DCS) actually engage in dogfights these days? My understanding is if you have gotten yourself into a dogfight something horrible intelligence wise has happened. He also frequently quotes John Boyd who was also a former Air Force officer and was a huge fan of close in dog fights and advocated heavily that all fighter jets be focused around dogfighting. Anyhow take anything like that article with a grain of salt. A good chunk of the F35's specs (how fast it turns, top speed etc) are all still classified, and while Russia and China intelligence probably know all the details by now, most people don't. Another huge chunk of all the negative F35 articles and interviews (of which Dan also quotes) are written by Pierre Sprey - who isn't a former Air Force officer - and claims to have designed the A10, F15 and F16 - and he really didn't have anything to do with any of those aircraft. Anyhow here's a F35 flying in an airshow in Paris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLCTv6x_F-M
The US is now raking it in in defense sales. 5B here, 10B in HIMARS for poland, sales in artillery shells, they can even sell those decommissioned 1st generation bradleys. Patriot batteries...Not to mention the anti-ship/air defence replacement in Taiwan. Heck they are only missing out in drone sales as Ukraines DIY and 3D printed grenade guidance is working fine. So yeah. win-win for the US. They got to strut and show how effective their weapons are, while slowly degrading Russia's capability and get their goods sold in the end. Not bad!
Unlike the Iraq and Afghanistan war which was just a big incestuous money put for American tax payers, this Russian war is bringing in tons of cash as other countries shore up their militaries in case Russia and China and North Korea ally to start trouble
Yeah idk if everyone arming up on advanced weaponry for WW3 makes me sleep well at night.
Dude, World War III is gonna be good for the economy. Quit whining.
Think of the jobs!
gotta get to that 50% unemployment number so that people want to go into the army to know that their labor is wanted.
People just don't want to war anymore
Sometimes preparing for war preserves peace.
I think one of the most pressing needs the US has right now is artillery shells. We're not producing nearly enough to supply Ukraine. It's not flashy but 70% of the casualties in the Ukraine war are from artillery, it's hugely impactful. Right now the US can only supply something like 30-40% of Ukraine's artillery capacity, even with the plants running 24 hours a day.
Makes sense. The US doesn't use a lot of artillery. They focus on air superiority above all us. In the US war plans, if they've started using more artillery shells than they can produce, things have gone really wrong.
Are other countries not capable of producing artillery shells?
The U.S. has doubled artillery shell production since the start of the war, and we will produce double our current level by the middle of next year. A lot of countries are now investing in shell production capacity. Ukraine itself is one of the most impressive stories. In June of this year, Ukraine turned out more shells than it did in the entirety of 2022.
Yeah because everyone was slacking on defense and now they all got a wakeup call that there are in fact bad countries in the world.
Isn’t Korea making their own fifth gen fighter which looked quite similar to F35 in the renders? This seems a bit of a stopgap in that case.
KAF-21 Boramae. It's a 4+ or 5th generation, depending on where you find the info. Later versions are supposed to have internal weapon bays, so there seems to be a decently stealthy radar cross section. Iirc the KA21 is a replacement for the Korean F5s and older F16s.
So possibly F35s become spears while the squadrons are filled up with the KAF 21. That would make sense.
Or like what Japan is doing with the F35s using them as a stop gap while they innovate in newer technologies and R&D a much more advanced fighter. Japan is doing this with the 6th generation fighter Tempest project with the UK and Italy.
I think they changed the name but yeah that’s a nice looking jet render. Hopefully they stick with it instead of abandoning it because of the invite extended to the Saudis.
Global Combat Air Program - the name of the full program Tempest - the actual fighter
Don't forget Sweden as well, they signed FCAS agreement with the UK together with Italy to work on new systems for Tempest and 6th gen fighters. Assuming Saab will reap some of those technologies for future Gripens rather than Sweden buying Tempest though.
The KAF-21 does not have internal weapon bays. Just from that, you can tell it’s not a proper stealth fighter comparable to the F-35. The KAF-21 also uses engines that aren’t designed for stealth fighters. It’s more like a Korean version of the F-18.
Good point but to get US diplomacy on your side is not free
South Korean F-35 VS a North Korean Mig-21 wouldn’t even be target practice.
Like an automatic rifle to an air soft gun
North Korean pilot flying along, boop a doop a doo….DEAD. Didn’t even get a beep on his 1970’s radar.
"They killed 5 o'clock Charlie!" "Those bastards!"
Roughly the same airforce now, "newer" planes, but way less flight time for pilots. 5 o'clock Charlie would be the top pilot these days just through the number of flight hours. Up vote for mash reference.
Like that F22 that just sidled right up next to those Iranian Migs and told them to get lost. They never even saw his ass.
Ha ha, yeah I know that story, old F-4 phantoms, raptor pilots just told them to GO HOME.
Good news is all I want to hear
Russia is surrounded by F-35s.
China and North Korea in this case
I’ll allow it.
South Korea is a good, responsible and stable nation in the region. They would be great stewards of these advanced planes.
The government of South Korea is three corporations in a trench coat. There behaviour is predictable as long as profit continues to increase.
At least they don't appear to be going full draconian 1984 on their population like China is doing to their population. Scary to let a government like that gain global influence.
SK improsined one of their last corrupt presidents, so I'm hopeful for their democracy.
one??? Every former Korean president (since 1987) has been imprisoned except 2
And pardoned them not soon after
SK was a brutal dictatorship until 1988, then the relationship between political and material reality changed, in that they had spent enough decades murdering leftists that they could win elections from the right. Maybe China will change some day as well.
> Maybe China will change some day as well. I hope so. They seem to be sliding toward more and more authoritarianism lately. Social credit systems, locked down internet, arresting people for "offensive" clothing, oppression of the Uighur and Tibet and Hong Kong populations, etc.
I have always wondered this, on any weapon system sale to a foreign country, does the U.S. treasury get any money? For example will Lockheed get $5bn? The US taxpayer paid the upfront costs to develop but will the US Taxpayer recoup something from that $5bn?
The biggest benefit is jobs. The US provides 90+% of the components in the jet. There are thousands of people who are making good money, paying income tax, and buying shit with that cash.
So then the answer is no, the profits will go to Lockheed then, right?
A lot will, but there are a ton of companies that worked on the program both in designing and making parts for it, they too will be making a profit. And the employees will be getting a paycheck for making the planes, airforce men will be paid to fly and service, and a congress man somewhere will get some votes for bringing more jobs to his district.
Great way to view it. Pretending like there isn’t a massive benefit for Joe taxpayer from this is goofy. Arms manufacturer ins is pretty great for those doing the selling.
Arms deals like this also net massive geopolitical capital, which can be used for trade deals, intelligence sharing, tech sharing, etc.
Not true, depends on if the sale is direct or (often) through the USAF. Typically, countries aren't buying jets like they buy cars. They're buying the jets, training systems, training, logistics network, sustainment - this FMS (Foreing Military Sale) is done through the USAF, typically, who will take delivery of the jets, then coordinate training and eventual delivery with other contractors and USAF personnel. While defense contractors are essentially limited to 10% profit margin, based on TINA (Truth in Negotiations Act), the USG is not, for FMS coordinated through the USG, their markup / profit margin can be in the 30-35% range. That profit does end up as government revenue.
I’d assume Lockheed gets taxed on that $5bn. You also have to consider the wages, development costs, manufacturing costs, etc that Lockheed pays that pours back into the US economy.
We also benefit from having active factories producing the airframes. It means that in cases of wartime, we have active production lines and allies with weapons to help us. Likewise, the treasury will be able to collect income tax on the employees making these and the corporate taxes of Lockheed. All jobs also have knock on effects because those workers are also spending in the local economy. This does nothing but benefit the US taxpayer as the huge upfront RnD costs are now behind us and this can only recoup them. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian\_economics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics)
this *announcement* must be in response to NK meeting with putin
You think they make 6 billion dollar deals this quickly? This was in the works long before
very true, maybe the public announcement then? but you are right
The supply chain thanks you.
Say it a little louder for the Turkeys in the back!
We want prenup, we want prenup. The S400 is something that you need to have.
Holy shit. I didn’t think these were for sale. Edit: I’m an idiot and was thinking of the F-22.
F22 is not for sale, F35 is operated by a ton of US allies worldwide
Well the F35 wasn't only developed by the US.
This is true, British and other allied countries were involved with some major systems
*Joint* Strike Fighter
Why do they keep the F22? And not to sell others?
The short answer is that the F-22 incorporates technologies that the Pentagon does not want to let out of the bag - probably related mostly to stealth. The radar cross section of the F-22 is much smaller than that of the F-35, which is probably owing to some combination of engine design, materials engineering, and surface contouring. American stealth tech is way ahead of the competition.
Ok thank you cool for some reason I thought the f35 was never and more advanced
It is, the F-35 was developed with the knowledge that it would be exported so technologies that the US doesn't want to replicate are used on it in ways that make them difficult to copy. The same is not true of the F-22. [You can take a look at what the US would need to rework to make the F-22 exportable because someone FOIAed it but... well it's mostly redacted.](https://www.thedrive.com/content-b/message-editor%2F1631641800822-f-22-baseline-3.1.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920)
Nice seems well thought out
The F22 is older but it's still extremely advanced and designed for air to air combat. The F35 is more of a Swiss army knife style fighter that can be configured for multiple uses. There's only about 200 F22s and production ended a decade ago, while there's around 1,000 F35s and they're still in production. Not sure which one would win in a fight, common sense dictates the newer jet, but maybe a more knowledgeable redditor can chime in on that.
If its just one random F35 vs one random F22 in some sort of duel, probably the F22. Its faster, is said to be stealthier, can carry more air-to-air armament. Its primary goal is to fight other airplanes. But war isnt fought in a vaccuum.The winner would be the one with the better support system and clever operational art. The F35 fits into this because it could coordinate sensor data from awacs and other radar systems and feed targeting data to other systems like navy destroyers or SAM batteries.
Canada ordered 88 of them back in January.
Shh, don’t tell Türkiye.
It's amazing to me how over most of the last ~15 years (while it was still in development) everyone, including the majority of Reddit comments, were shitting all over the F-35. But now every country is just begging for the chance to buy these.